Select Board - Regular Meeting

Good evening, Littleton. Welcome to the select board meeting for uh Tuesday, April 22nd. We'll start with the pledge. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Uh so we have uh one virtual attendee, Karen Morrison is on the in Zoom. Um, so we'll begin with reading of the mail, department updates, uh, use of the town common for graduating senior lawn signs, establishing a safety zone in the Long Lake neighborhood, a veterans agent memorial day parade approval, charter commission. We'll do public input select board updates uh vote uh to change our one day liquor license process discussing of performance reviews uh discussing of the Bransfield Tree Company for orchard work. Uh approval of a contract for with TEC for infrastructure work of 550 King Street. Uh 7:45 we'll talk about town meeting updates. uh move on to 8 o'clock. We'll have approval of minutes and adjourn quickly at 8:05. So, start with the mail. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Members of the select board, we have current vacancies on the town boards. We have uh current um opportunities that are appointed by the select board. the agricultural commission, conservation commission, cultural council, economic development committee, historical commission, master plan implementation committee, permanent municipal building committee, zoning board of appeals, and we have one um opening on a committee that's appointed by the school committee, and that is the finance committee. Sign up to receive public notifications for the town of Littleton. Uh register www.ittletonmma.org/

org/subscribe. Community impacts, public safety activity, town meeting changes, transportation issues, public health concerns, town events. Stay informed. And we have notifications of four separate uh hearings from complaints from compliance checks from the Alcohol Beverages Control Commission of four establishments in our community. We have one uh for the Littleton subshop and then we have another the next one is the Tavern in the square and the next one is the for Jake for Jack for Jacks X. Thank you. And uh the last Littleton's one-stop liquors and they were all for uh serving uh serving of miners uh at various times. And uh Mr. Chairman, members of the board, uh town council has has um said that there is no action required right now with the with the select board. It's uh it's it's a you can they will ABC will conduct a hearing. However, if you want to bring them in individually or together and just have them explain to explain to the the select board, that's up to you. You have that right. But no action can be taken other than them explaining what happened until after the hearing. Correct. Okay. Thank you. Um we are going to uh continue down. Uh next thing we have ex we've got a we've got something from Xfinity uh writing to update the information cable television license franchise in our community. uh mailed uh Comcast AT attention government relations uh with uh copies going to government relations in Manchester, New Hampshire and Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. They also want to let the customers know about changing Xfinity TV services. Please

note the following changes in the lineup in in our community. Uh on May 22nd, 2025, adult channels 435 to 459 will be upgraded to HD and moved to channels 1883 to 1894. On May 22nd, 2025, HIT hitz channel 1880 and hits 2, channel 1881 will no longer be available. However, these networks will continue to be available on their other channel locations. hits channels 342 and 1817 and hits two channels 343 and 1818. Uh they also have this letter as part of the notification that contains the uh municipal building emergency trouble reporting procedures that we have updated with within our system. And now we've got uh a notification from MDAR uh which is the Department of Agricultural Resources. uh the notification that back in January they reviewed the Littleton electric light and water yearly operational plan uh for 2025 and uh and it satisfies all the requirements put put forth by the department following up um pursuant uh notice of approval to LEWD again um for the approval is given by the attending members of the row advisory panel Uh copies of the approved VMP should be mailed to the chief elected official, board of health, conservation commission. Uh that is pesticide control act of mass general laws chapter 132B uh or the regulations promated there under 333 CMR inclusive may suggest the responsible parties to agency action referral to this matter of the office of the attorney general in Commonwealth Massachusetts. Uh then it goes further into the review

of auvailable um uh documents for uh sensitive areas rights of way in Massachusetts with the chemical that would be uh that will be used. Uh and it uh there's five pages of of that and we scroll through that. And finally, this was LWD uh on April 4th. That was the herbicide application notification. Um, so we're a little bit backwards. This was the cover letter for that. Uh, and to and so it is required to provide notification of activities regarding LWD's right-of-way herbicide application program. And that will start on or about May 1st, 2025. And uh, go through September 30th of 2025. And uh, okay, let me uh, continue down. Everybody get a call on that. Everybody got a phone call, I think, on that purpose. idea. Then we have uh also received notification um to commend uh Marinel, our town planner uh and the planning staff for the efforts put forth in implementing the flood plane management measures for the town of Littleton. A flood insurance study and a flood insurance rate map have have been completed by the community and they will become effective on July 8th, 2025. Outstanding job, Myin. That's part of the uh the um that that's the town meeting vote to accept those. Yes, sir. So, there's a planning board article to accept that new map. Yes, sir. And we also have here we have uh Keith El Morris from uh from Leeds, Massachusetts. It serves as a f formal notification with pesticides board regulations. uh commence uh with a post herbicide application program on or after May 1st

2025 and conclude October 31st 2025. That is notification to that. Uh here we have a petition of National Grid for gas main locations and that was submitted to Diane Quarry. Uh however uh our DPW director Steve Yanley has informed uh u national grid that they would need to go apply through him and that is replacing the existing 4-in regulator vault at the intersection of King Street and Shadic Street with a new 4-in prefabricated district regulator station and abandoning the existing regulator station 192. Does this require opening roads at all or Yes. So they need to do that before work is complete. Correct. Uh there we have the abutters list notifying everyone of such. Uh then we have uh here is the another letter from femur. It just uh had uh received a letter state of the community as until July 8th, 2025. Um, and it was uh notified that the contact information for FEMur regional office had had been updated and they just provided us with a new updated uh contact info with that and uh that would be it. Thank you. Okay. Uh department board updates uh the using the town common for the yard signs. Um yes sir. Uh this is uh requesting uh Liz uh Shocklin is requesting the use of uh Laura Littleton Common for the display of yard signs with photos of graduating seniors. And that will take place from May 14th, 2025 through May 30th, 2025. And uh um everything has uh has been signed off and uh accepted. It's before you. Any comments, board members,

past practice? I didn't know if we normally had them up for Memorial Day or they were they take them down the day before. Okay. Typically, don't they? Yeah, cuz this is past Memorial Day. Oh, that was my only question on this was Memorial Day. Yeah, Memorial Day is in the 20s this year. Memorial Memorial Day is the 26th. Then they asked to keep it's just going to impede some of the kids sitting along the common on the curb because the signs are pretty close to the curbing. Maybe maybe we could just tell Liz to set them back a little bit. Yeah. Okay. No problem. Okay. Any other comments? Move that the select board approve the use of the Littleton of the lower Littleton Common for the display of signs with photos of Littleton graduating seniors. Second. Moved by Matthew, second by Chuck. We have to do a roll call vote. Gary. Gary's he Chuck. Chuck's yes. Matthew. Matthews. Yes. Karen, can she hear us? I hope so. Judy, we got to rewind. She's working on it. Oh, we have a Karen, can you hear us? Can you all hear me now? Yep. Yes. Yes. Okay, great. Uh, I'm a I'm a yes. Okay. And Mark's a yes. Thank you, Karen. Okay. Um, uh, Long Lake safety zone discussion and vote. So, we had a long discussion about the safety zone at our last meeting. Um, we didn't take a vote on it because, uh, we we didn't not all members were present. Um, I don't know, Rob, if you

want to say any few words. Um, we've had the in the since the meeting the uh the speed zone was down the the radar zone was radar trailer was down there. Um, and uh Mr. Yanley's weighed in on where to place signs and what signs to go up. So, I don't know if there's any board discussion to be had on this. I mean, I don't know why we wouldn't do it. I guess I think you guys covered it last minute. Yeah. I mean, we um I I drove down there um a little before the last meeting just, you know, after I had spoke with Mr. RS just to kind of get a feel for what what that speed limit feels like at even at 30. Don't tell anybody. Um 25 just to kind of get a feel especially when there's people walking dogs and things like that. I think um that area to me 20 miles an hour feels very safe for a driver. um when there are people about especially as we get into obviously a time when it's going to be buzzing people but so I'm I'm very comfortable with 20 m hour in that in that zone a little tricky coming down the hill to to get down to 20 really quick but I mean that's a lot of places are like that but it's necessary in that in that area um I I do want to say that it's a little bit uncharacteristic for the board the you know we we put out the speeds things out there for a reason and I know they were cont kind of contrary to the what we're going to do um but this I think this situation specifically this to me is more common sense just where it's located with the lake without really sidewalks and the activity along the lake it just it makes perfect sense to me so um I'm glad we got some data um but I I think it makes makes a lot of sense

Yeah. I don't think I don't think it sets a precedence for being almost like I'm going to call it spot zoning. It's not your spot speeding. Yeah. Well, you know, spot um enforcement. Enforcement. Yeah. So, I think everything just said perfect area for it. So, so thank you for your work that you put into this, Mr. and everybody that's here for that and that contributed to the the signatures and everything else that uh pushed this forward. So, thank you. Safety first. want to see if Karen has anything. Yeah. Did you have anything to add, Karen? I think you're muted. Uh, thanks guys. Um, no, I'm fully in favor. Okay. My only comment um was the signs were Steve talked about putting up the 20 mph signs and then an endzone sign. And I think rather than an end zone sign, it might be better to put up a 25 just that put up a 25 sign rather than the end zone because the end kind of implies that it's a free-for-all if they don't really say what the speed limit is there. So changing the end zone to a 25 would be I think a better approach, but we're going to allow Steve to make all the decisions on the signage. Yeah. Okay. All right. I'm ready if you're ready for a motion. uh move that the select board vote pursuant to Mass General Law Chapter 90 section 18B and article 15 passed unanimously during the October 30th, 2017 special town meeting to designate as a safety zone posted with a 20 mph speed limit Lakeshore Drive from its intersection with Aspen Road to its intersection with Beach Drive and Beach Drive from its intersection with Ivy Road to its intersection with Lakeshore Drive and Lake Drive with its intersection with Ivy Road to its intersection with Lakeshore Drive. Second. Moved by Matthew. Second by Chuck. Roll call. Gary. Gary's a yes. Chuck. Chuck's eye. Matthew. Matthew's a

yes. Karen. Aaron. By Mark. Yes. So, thank you. Thank you everyone. Great. Thank you guys. Okay. Uh, veterans agent. Um, yes, sir. Uh Mr. Chairman, and this is uh typical every year this is being done. Uh the veterans agent has uh requested uh approval uh for the route and he's uh provided the the route for you for the Memorial Day parade which will be held on May 26th, 2025 this year. And all the appropriate town staff have been um involved. Can I ask a comment? Um, with John retiring, this will be his last Memorial Day, correct? Yeah. Um, put a pin on that for a minute, but um, it might be worth one of us or somebody being delegated to Shadow John or just kind of understand what needs to be done in order to make Memorial Day happen. I just Bob's got a lot of people copied LCTV, Police, Fire, DBW, um the high school band director, but it might be a good idea from a um organizational standpoint, a logistics standpoint for somebody. I'm pointing at Gary because I think he's the guy, but for the you mean you're talking transition just for transitioning to to next year and then because you know, we don't have any air apparent to John right now. That that job is open. I did see it on the website. It is and we we have received um a a few applications also and it does say one of which is extremely attractive. Yeah. Good. Does say um until filled. So we don't have to leave it open. If we have a qualified candidates we can we can act. I just want I mean there's institutional knowledge there. I don't think John would say no. I'm not going to tell you. Yeah. That's a good that's a good call.

Okay. Yeah. All right. Um I'll nominate Gary. I'll put that. Wait, we're not I'll talk to John about it. Thank you. You just deny a nomination. If nominated, I will not run. If elected, I will not serve. Um I I did want to mention that I know our packet is hasn't been updated yet. We do have a our um is it the marshall grand marshal? It's going to be commander um Grim from um he was uh Navy Coast Guard commander. So Wow. Yep. So David David Grim will be our our marshall for the parade. Just let everybody know that was I know was fake on my move that the select board vote to approve the veterans agent request for the approval of the Memorial Day parade route and agenda on Monday, May 26th, 2025. Second move by Matthew, second by Chuck. Roll call vote Gary. Gary's yes. Chuck. Chuck. Matthew. Matthew's yes. Karen Karen's yes. Mark's a yes. So, thank you very much. Uh Moving on. Department updates. Charter committee. Yes, sir. Sorry. Yeah. You know, this is I I'll keep this a short discussion. You know, I did I know I did mail out um this though they're not um actively in this portion of of discussion yet. the boards that we want the committee to look at um and kind of determine make recommendations towards those boards and committees futures and things like that. We have so many that I I think as a board we can pretty much control and navigate through some of these minor boards when to activate them or you know um disperse them. But the ones that we want them to focus on, you

know, Rob um provided a list and the in the chair and everybody have seen it that of who we want them to kind of look at and he have a good spreadsheet here of those um committees, the assessors, health, cemetery, housing, library trustees, park and wreck, planning board, trust fund, water commission, light commission, school committee, select board. Um those are all our um elected committees. Now three of those the light commission, the school committee and the select board are the only three by law that have to be elected. So the discussion I guess would be do we want to to really um in agriculture as well? But um do we want the committee to really focus on the rest of those looking you know researching other towns and communities? What works what makes sense with our changing community? really dives deeper into those that group that I had just mentioned to see if they should be continued to be um you know elected or appointed and by whom. Um because if we really get down into all of these it's quite an extensive list and I think it it might take up time that really might not be necessary. I mean are we are we going to have a you know I don't know you pick a shade tree committee elected? No. So I I I think we could really lock it into these this group of of people. So are you are you asking do we want the charter committee to only consider elected elected boards when they're examining whether a board should be elected or not? Yeah, unless you know I think individually there could be a board or committee out there that may be the other way, right? Where something that currently is appointed that could be elected. Um I'm not aware of one of these that is in that situation. Maybe a council on aging in some communities.

Are they elected? Are they always? No. So um I I as I looked at this I couldn't find one that would have been ever an elected board anywhere. So, um I think if we stick have them stick to about this dozen this group of dozen um boards and committee you saw it. Yeah, I have boards and committees I think it might make sense and and use their time a little more wisely focused if that's and I don't think um Mr. R, correct me if I'm wrong if I may. Um it's you're not there yet. You're not even discussing that yet. So, we have time to kind of look this over or add to or take away from. I I know um the light commission um and school committee and select board we we take them off pretty much because they're they have to be elected. So that leaves us with 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 nine nine committees and boards that really could be looked at um and whether we want them to continue to be the way they are or or not. Um I do think that's I think that's the right priority is look at those nine first. Yeah. But please look at that sheet that I shared because it does kind of get into all the boards and committees, how many members they have and do we want them to get into that discussion of membership and and things like that on some of these um because times times have changed. So I think if we focus it down to this smaller group, they can even get into that type of discussion on um how many personnel and do look at other communities and things that work have been successful and we could identify that. Um, outside of that, so sorry. I I agree with all of that. I would say that the only ones that are appointed that I would can be looking at are possibly the zoning board of appeals and possibly the finance committee um if they fall into cuz I don't like I think you personally in my I think you probably either want the zoning board of appeals or the planning board to be elected. So right now we have one or the other. But if you're making the planning

board not elected, then then I would look at those more together, right? Um and I don't know about the finance committee. I'm just throwing it out there. Yeah. As something uh typically finance committee is always appointed. Yeah. Um by different sources of crazy the research actually and the ZBA and the planning board are typically also appointed. Yeah. So, but the good well that's probably a good ad zoning board of appeals and finance committee just the the and I also I mean the library trustees the one guy told us that they were had to be elected when he was in I've only um my experience has been uh uh they have been only elected. Yes. So I would question whether your shoots accurate or not on the trustees and some of the housing authority probably also needs to have elected. Um, they're appointed because you've got a you got you have a governor's appointment. You've got uh then you have local representatives. Can they all be appointed or I thought I I I I thought that that was the Okay, that could be I I could be I could be wrong, but I thought that there were different appointments from different areas in the Commonwealth. Like I said, the governor uh Okay. But I mean, if the library trustes one, if that's true, the law does say, then they can just yeah, pass over it. But I think it's one to look at just for research purposes. Um housing authority. We can look at that. Yeah. It is. Yeah. Point. Yeah. Okay. Housing. Yeah. But it's appointed in in some places. That's why it's elected in a lot of communities. So it's just one like I said these are all very active important boards to the community. Not that they all every board is important. Not saying that that's the right thing. I'm just saying these are the authorities um that really govern a lot of our town business. Um and I think they it's it's time this is why we're doing it. It's time to think. So the only question I have on the other appointed boards is

whether they should be some of these are like appointed by their existence is in the bylaws. Yeah. And others are at the will of the select board. And I don't know if there's a reason they should be bylaw boards versus not. Like the personal advisory is a bylaw board as is clean lakes, but I don't know what I think conservation is as well. Fair point. I that would be the what I would clear up on those committees whether they should be um at the will of the select board to have that committee and disband it or if it's a town meeting that create that create continue that that committee I know that there was a discussion at the the meeting that I was I was requested to to attend uh this this came up and because there are so many boards and committees here and to take up the time for the charter review committee. Um they potentially uh looked at let's just highlight the the bigger ones at year one and then take it then then maybe take a another opportunity down the road to look at look at some others um because you there's going to be multiple town meeting votes and uh for this process is typically the case. So really prioritizing is was kind of a conversation. So if so the so the question is if they're at the will of the select board right then they shouldn't even rise to a level of anything for the charter committee because we can right disband them any time but if they're by law then we then what happens when there's the charter? Yeah. Well I mean you're talking like finance committee for instance we don't we we already know by statute that they have to exist right. So it's I guess you all you would get into is the appointing piece to that. Would you do we remain the way we are with how we appoint the finance committee or is there a way a

different form that makes sense on on those state? We could slide those over for a separate group of that type of discussion because there are some boards over there um finance the one that sticks out but um is PNBC also jointly appointed there PMBC has at least one from the school committee. Yeah. So, I think that's another one. There's anything PMBC has one from the school committee and then if they're doing a project then they have um ad hoc ad hoc but but I feel like the first priority would be looking at the elected boards. The second tier is definitely finance committee. Yeah. But I I don't know if there's any others in that second tier that rise to the level of scrutiny that we would that I would want to see put on the finance committee. maybe PMBC, but but finance committee is definitely like the one appointed board that I think would be worth looking at. And then I mean not to again not to disparage any boards, but the most of the rest of them seem to fall like in lower in priority to me as far as the necess necessity for the charter committee to spend time on. Okay. So that that's my opinion. All right. So, this group I think makes sense that and we have time and I you know I'll pro I'll probably sit um with the board and just kind of or or offsite discuss some of this on how we these other ones or twos that might make sense to look at for the other the appoint the appointing authority piece right outside of that. Okay. a big thing if I may make a suggestion uh through the chair uh the when you're talking about the finance committee to maintain their basically the the position of of of authority if you want to say because there are some communities have the finance committee as advisory only and here I think because of the success of done so great financially that we just we just maintain that that you know that form of uh of their responsibility to um instead of being to present the

basically presenting the budget to the right just don't have it don't have their role change whatsoever. Yeah. Yeah. A name I think that's a name only because I think the bylaw does say that it's an advisory to the select board. Okay. But there's there we've gone down this road before with I you know there's there's also a lot of mass Massachusetts statute that talks about the finance committee presenting the budget and um select board can disagree with finance budget and present our own budget and that happened I you know I know a few members were here Tim probably 20 or so years ago where that happened the select and the finance committee couldn't come to agreement on budgets and we presented two budgets at Tom meeting So, um I think I I do like the balance of power that way. I think we've come to a much better place where the two boards are together. But um I like I said with the with income I think it's more of uh how the appointing authorities to make sure that we're not some of there's not other you know see individual right now we have um two from school two from select board one from moderator one from uh the assessor's office and who else I'm missing but um water light and water I think it's or water but I I think it's important um to just reook that maybe maybe there's another board that we think now has gotten large enough where they should have a stake on the finance committee that becomes a little bit more focused. It's a park and wreck, you know, do we put a can we take one away from select board, move it over there? Do we take one away? I don't know. But I think that's a discussion that we can have. But I maybe I'll come back with that those pieces. But this is the one I think that's most important out of the gate is the elected versus appointed. and then we can talk about all right well these are going to be the appointed how by whom and what makes sense for Littleton um with our growth and and what's changed so there's other boards that are in this state that get

appointed by multiple authorities like affordable housing trust I think like you have an appointment and the subboard has some and so we should probably look at how the appointments work on these multi and I know there's boards that Tim has appointments on do we want to take away his authority or give them more and yeah I think it's you know yeah there are there are fincoms we've talked about where the moderator appoints every member so there's a lot of we see a lot of the towns have different varying um ways that they do business but with the with these specifically I I think if we really look at um the appointment authorities and why I I think first though the charter committee needs to get to a point of making recommendations on appointed versus elected and then we can get into they can get into the discussion on okay if it's appointed by whom and what makes sense to the the committee that second tier for a recommendation. Yeah. Um I would like to also add I we we never really talked I don't know if we put it in the letter on how often maybe we have the chair and vice chair present to us or members other members of the that committee come in front of us. Is it do we want to do it quarterly? I mean what makes sense? How often do you want to see an update and just where are you at in the process? You know, what do you need from us? I mean, I I stepped back. I mean, last meeting I this the head cold piece, but I it also made sense to me. You know what? I think when I was there, I was interfering a little bit um where I wanted to have the callin center take a little bit more that back and forth. I think I might have been interrupting that a little bit by being in the room and talking. So, I want to make sure that I give the committee time to breathe and make decisions and then I can kind of maybe I come in quarterly every third meeting or something for question answers and what they need. I you know I just want to make sure that they're free to you know keep this dialogue. Yeah. Instead I just it made

me feel a little uncomfortable. So I wanted to make sure that we quarterly would see sounds like a fine cadence to me. Yeah. for reporting to us just and we can we can change it if we decide there's more information we need or or there's not much update then we can yeah it can be a 10 minute update yeah okay um but other than that they're going bugging along good they're digging into some language that they want to use and things so I think it's going to be a cool their feet are under them now so they're starting to move so it's good good to see good group of good group of people running it too so did you have anything to add Karen or Um, I think the only thing I would add is that if it sounds it's a little hard to follow um from a distance, but it sounds like initially we're going to uh we're going to um suggest that they stick with the um the first page of um of commissions and committees. But Mark, I thought you made a good point that, you know, if they're doing if they're making changes to the planning board, then they might want to balance those out with changes to the zoning board of appeals. Um, I think maybe we should just let them know that if they feel a need to pull or make changes in one of those other lists um to balance out what they're doing initially, you know, in this first round that they're looking at that they should go ahead and do that. Okay. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. I had to wrote it down. So, yeah, I agree with that. So, thank you. Mhm. Yeah, that's really all I had. Rob, you know, I want to give you let Rob speak if you think there's anything I might have missed the question part that we wanted to some answers here. If you Yeah, if you got Sure. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Rob Brown's 25 Juniper Road and one of the nine people on the charter review me. Uh I think what you covered is correct. I just wanted to add because you you asked where I I'm continually reading and reviewing the charge that that you gave to the committee and really following that. So we'll follow your lead. I'm not trying to be a rogue insisting on anything, but rather clarifying when I hear different things in the charter discussion to make sure that we're following what you want to do in that regard. Now, me is just one of the the nine. I also have been making reference during the meetings with regard to the government structure review that was released in July of 2024. And I've made a comparison of those comments and recommendations because they actually do recommend some things and look for the alignment with regard to your charge. I would just give you give you that thought of I'm using that as somewhat when I see alignment as being an indicator that this is directionally where you want us to go. because that's a longer document than the one and a half page charge. I just want to throw that for you to take a look at that in the future, but I wasn't asking for that. You've covered what I was asking, you know, of you, but I'll just throw that out in response to you you asking. Okay. And I know I know this board back last June July when we met for our goals session everything we initially talking about this we thought that that um that discovery um and the recommendations from that report would kind of run hand inand more more so to help justify that we needed a charter committee to get together and kind of make these changes but also so I I don't want it to completely dominate the committee's time with oh well this is what the recommendations were let's really attach and focus on that and run with it

because those are just recommendations too. But some of it definitely aligns uh really well with what we we've charged that committee to do. So maybe we um it's definitely it's like another data point. It is and I think it's important for that board that committee to to use it. Um but I I just want to make sure that they're going in independently clearheaded and just kind of using that as a resource. That's good. Yeah, I would say um if I give the chair um if the charter committee sees something that's in the report that you know they're not sure if we want them to look at that's certainly a you know the quarterly reviews are certainly a good point of clarification but they can always come to us and ask right yep I I'll mention the quarterly uh just update. It could be a five minute, it could be a two second, or it could be, you know, briefing. I would hate for them to to rule out, you know, uh contemplating something that they think is very valuable that's in the report just because it wasn't in our initial charge. Yeah, good point. When DS did the structural review, that was focused more on financial policy and that kind of thing, I believe. Um it was you're right it was yeah but there was there was definitely parts of that that that are in our you know in our charge. So we want to make sure that they they're definitely there's definitely some alignment that that can and should happen. I just Yeah, you're right. It's just it's a it's a a tool to be used in alignment with. Certainly. Um, just to Gary, Rob, and any Tim, obviously you guys know the MMA and the resources available through MMA, but MMA's got

resources. Look, how many cities and towns have elected planning boards? 246. How many are are appointed by the select board? How many appointed by the town manager? How many appointed by a mayor? So, it's, you know, those numbers are available to us. Just a matter of knowing where to look for them. Yep. I think Collins can help with that, too. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. All right. Good. Anything further? No. I think it's it's going along well. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Uh, now we're doing public input. Anyone? Okay. Members update. So, you want to start, Chuck? Oh, man. Um, I'm going to get my head around it. Um, I'm not paying for last meeting. I'm trying to think what we missed. We we mentioned um the robotics team I believe, right? Um yeah, if I if something pops in my head, I'll I'll swing back. I didn't have Sorry. Yes. Um mostly uh Orchard. So Mark and I attended the last MAPC orchard meeting. Um and it was good. was less I would say less focused on than the first one and a little bit more aspirational me as far as um goals that the town had for the way that we would manage the criteria we'd use to measure success around the orchard. There was a very strong uh public sentiment that the uh Nishoba praying Indians should be included in every aspect of the the planning process and um it was it was very clear that that was it came it came in at the top of almost every list which was you know interesting and heartening in some ways. Um, and I think I also met with John Bransfield on Saturday, just briefly, just an informal conversation at the

orchard. Um, we do have a discussion later about the a pump for the well, but he is um just starting to clear trees. They tried to start earlier, but the ground was too muddy and they were g they were gouging it up, so he stopped. He's basically cleared some of the um the field. He's cleared and chipped some of the field near the upper barn and he's just started cutting trees down on the field below the house. He also said that he um it was going to be a slow start this year. He's very busy with his regular tree business, but he has some enormous 4,000 trees in pots or something like that that he's ready to move. So, um and then the last thing that he said was that he is interested in posting regular updates. He's going to start a website with with a regular news about what's going on at the orchard. And I know that that was something that came up at the orchard meeting. Um and in addition, he said he would post on Facebook. I believe there's an orchard page. Y um that he was going to post his updates or links to them on that page and he was going to do a regular update of cadence of like what's going on, what he's doing. Um and like I said at the meeting, you know, he does a newsletter about his business, which is uh he's clearly deeply involved in trees. He's a ner he's a nerd. He takes pictures of trees that are interesting and and talks about them and stuff. So, I I'm sure that he'll be um posting information about not just the the the work that he's doing on the orchard, but his plans, the sort of native trees he's running into, what he might see about things that are going on. So, I look forward to that. Um along those same lines, I reached out and introduced him to Nancy today so that he could post something in the town newsletter. Oh, great. Perfect. Perfect. And I think he should probably be on a podcast. Baby steps. That's understood. Yeah. Gary. Oh, sure.

Um, let's see. Uh, I just want to thank everybody that came out for candidates night and uh just remind everybody that candidates videos are out. I know. Um, and thank the Rotary once again for putting it on. Um, and Tim for moderating. Oh, yeah. He's in the room. I got to thank him too as always. I take you for granted sometimes. So, thank you. Um, difficult job for sure. Um, let's see. Uh, I I wanted to thank the historical commission for, you know, I I was I had plans with family to attend the conquered ceremony. So, I was in in conquered. But um I from everything that I've seen and read just amazing amazing day and event for Littleton um from Liberty Square all the way to Fay Park and just uh wanted to thank them for all the work uh that they put into that. So that was uh and I I believe we had um pretty well attended and I I went I did make it by to see the bouncy houses coming down so I know that they were up at Faith Park. Um, I attended the COA's uh had a lunch lunchon today that LEWD put on. U they're up at the perfect this time they timed it perfectly with vacation week. So they at the high school cafeteria. Um when I I went in it was so well attended. It's they were they were wallto-wall that whole cafeteria with tables. So um but it will be nice when all of that can be over here into this building next door. But um it was a great event and I wanted to thank them for that because it's one of those things community great community outreach event. Um the you know something we talked about several meetings back when we had um Mr. uh Ralph Bistorf come in the coach and um the Olympian. Yeah. and for fencing. And I I just kind of came back up in my head that the goodness I said I I wanted

to potentially get him, you know, recognized more with a sign entering Littleton. We have an Olympian that lives in in town. I think it's worthy of the same thing as, you know, when we have a high school champion at something, we put it up um somehow recognize that. So I I guess Jim, I' I'd like to charge you with help me. Is it school committee? Is it park and wreck? Is it who? Or is it just through us that we come up with a signage uh recognizing this home of you know Ralph? Okay. Thisorf um yeah Olympic gold medal champion. Historically they've been they've been the signs have been made by Mascore through the prison system. Um Oh really? Yeah. I Yeah. I wasn't even aware of that. So Okay. More we can discuss more. Yeah. I'll check with uh actually you know I'll probably go to the state to the travel and tourism because they have a they've got uh yeah standards or they've got samples of famous people or athletes or whatever historians in their community so for signage. So I'll I'll I'll do that. Sure. Yeah. Maybe let's do a little ceremony when we do put it up recognizing him. Be great. Um let's see. I I did have a little bit of comments on uh the Deb's beds. I know um we had um I don't know. I must have read it in the Rotary when I I I had I had seen that um Miss uh Denise had talked about how the they were being moved out of the Rotary. Yeah. The mill building and things like that. So, um I went down I I sat with uh Chris who owns Dolphin Insulation. I was trying to make the connection. And I didn't, silly me, didn't have the connection of how what was even going on. So I went and I sat it sat with Chris, the owner of Dolphin Insulation for about an hour and we talked about uh the whole situation and space and he's you know he's got some other things going on potentially that he needs space needs

outside of Littleton anyway. So that part I think was going to happen. But Deb's beds um was using space that Dolphin insulation was leasing leasing. So um lo and behold um I I went and spoke with Jim and Jim being who he is hopped right on the phone with the business man you know Le's business manager and just wanted to get and and like I expected um the developer the business venture wouldn't know anything about it. How would they just a lessie? Yeah. Right. Unless you're really vested, you've been in the community a while. You know you know what what De's Beds even is and what they do. So, and where they're not on the lease, they wouldn't further they wouldn't know. So, um had very fruitful discussions um with him. Jim's been following up. Obviously, this happened late last week. We had a long weekend for most people. So, we've been going back and forth with communication, but the latest I mean, you can give the latest update. Um well, the latest is uh working with their independent with their leasing company. uh they're going to identify uh free space uh within uh within a building for Deb's beds. Uh so Noli is going to has given that direction to uh to the leasing company to find find them space. Yeah. So great. It's just outstanding. It'll it'll be it's an outstanding story. So at the end of the day, it's it's fantastic, Gary. Thank you for alerting alerting us without a doubt. And thank you, Jim. Um, that's really all I have. So, I sure I'm missing a bunch of things and bunch of thank yous, but Do you have anything, Karen? Um, no, not really. Thank you, Mark. I'll throw just one thing out there if I may. Um, no, you lost your forfeit my time. I yield I yield my time

to the chairman. Um, I know there's a lot of people, you know, trying to get their brush burnt and whatnot in their backyard. Just make sure that you do call the fire department or go online to the fire department website and um $10 to get a burn permit and the the chief or the fire prevention officer has the right to shut us down on any day that's really windy or anything like that. So, call before you burn just to give them a heads up of where you're burning. And um that ends on April 30th is the last day to burn. So it's January 15th or April 30th. So and there have been a lot of brush fires in the area. So there was a big one up behind Yeah. right next to the cemetery in New Town Road backyard. So two in Westward lately, one in Actton over the weekend. So medium the median in Boxboro that Yeah. So just be careful. Please get your permits. Yes. Right. Thank you. Um I attended a few weeks ago I attended the MMA was um had something about how to host citizensmies um which I think would be a good thing for us to look into in the future. They usually do like a 8 or 12 week uh crash course on how town how the town functions. You know, they do things like this is attendance select board meeting, how the planning board works, what the building department does, how what the fire department does, and you get to do they some of them do fun things with the fire and police department. So, you could, you know, go riding in a cruiser or go up a ladder truck or, you know, all that fun stuff. So, it's something we probably should look at doing at some point in the future to get more community engagement, get more people that will, you know, potentially run for these elected slots or volunteer for these openings. So, uh I think it would be a good thing to look at. Um I held office hours a few weeks ago. Um I think there's office hours. Are you this Friday? I don't I I'll have to look at the schedule. I don't remember. Um I wanted to remind people the town meeting is coming up on the 6th. There will be a

presentation on Shaker Lane beforehand at 6 PM in the cafeteria, town meeting at 7, and elections on May 10th. Um, if I believe you can go into Diane Corey's office and early vote sometime pretty soon, but you can check with her on those dates. Um, I did attend the uh Patriots Day event at Liberty Square. Um, it was very well attended. I wanted to thank the historical commission for all the work that they did. I did not get to go to the events at FA Park, but I've heard that it was very well attended and kudos for the historical commission and historical society for putting on a great event. Um, yeah, great. Thank you to Patriot as well. Patriot Beverage. Yes. I heard they had a blowup bouncy a blowup tavern. Really? Yeah, they did. They did blow up tavern. How was it? Were you in there? I did not make it. Surprise, surprise. So, uh, do you want to talk about any of the projects? Sure, that'd be great. A couple things. I would like to uh I let the the select board know that we uh had been contacted the region had been contacted by Senator Warren's office uh and they as a result of the meeting we had back in December in Lemonster uh uh the congressional directed spending process was available there is and they uh they range from anywhere from h 100,000 to $3 million and we the region uh is is submitting for EMS services and um uh so the chief chief McCertie is uh is closing that loop uh with that with that particular situation because that is due the application and the request is due for the end of this week. Uh, another financial um, positive thing

that we have is we were alerted by from Congresswoman Tran's office that the uh, our request for the million dollars to help with the sewer project to find a second discharge location. It it there was there was strong uh, anticipation that uh, it wouldn't it would not get funded. The Democrats would not the Democrats wouldn't get their uh, stuff funded. However, it is still eligible. We have been notified. So, we're updating that uh um that that uh submission and that requires just an updated letter from the chairman. Please just to sign that. And I've received uh updated letters from uh Representative RCO, Senator Eldridge, uh LLWD, uh also Mr. La poli uh because it was uh because clearly we are looking for to help that that economic development project and um move and we're uh moving forward with that that is due tomorrow. I'll submit all that stuff tonight. And we have um uh tonight, as you can see later on, we have the authorization to sign the contract for $160,000. And that was for the milliondoll uh earmark that was uh that that the uh town received uh through um through the governor's office uh with the help of the select board and Mr. only to be able to get that and uh with the infrastructure correct it's uh for the infrastructure it's called the housing works infrastructure program grant and uh so we're we're moving forward there 36 King Street as you know is going to is uh is being delayed a little bit so now we are having discussions with the contractor with extending that contract and um that is uh that is it the sewer project the work's getting away underway

again in the next couple weeks And it is uh it it it is so they want to make sure because the paving plan and the finished stuff is all on on the town's website. Uh the infrastructure uh as you know has already started uh regarding at the site and uh continuing uh and we are going to have a meeting that the team here is going to have a meeting with LLWD and uh the developer uh for 550 King Street uh to make sure for the next round of funding that uh there is uh uh there's no duplication of requests uh which would jeopardize any anything like that and uh figure out how we're able to uh have a balance with that between all three all three entities. And the Shadic Street opening is May 16th. Is that correct? The grand opening. Oh my goodness. Oh yeah. The center on Shadic. Yes. May 16th at 1:00. And we don't have a groundbreaking date for the ceremony for 550 yet. We do not. We do not. And that is a discussion every week of Do you have it yet? Do we have it yet? So, we're uh we continue to team continues to uh to stay on that. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Uh moving on. Um board time administrator updates a discussion and vote on a one-day liquor license process. This was uh something that the select board had made uh asked me to inquire with town council on. uh and you have a uh uh language before you that in the event that the appropriate uh public safety people uh express that there is no areas of concern that I have uh the town administrator uh has the authority to uh approve it. However, if there are some complications that any of the public safety departments do see, uh it

is then referred to the select board for further discussion and uh and understanding and for the select board to take the vote. So, this will be very similar to like the gift process where instead of us approving the gifts, the town administrator can approve the liquor licenses and then we'll just be notified of the approval. So, um is there any discussion? Well, just we're where we're the appointing authority. I just I is are those other communities where the town administrator, the town manager is signing off on those. I'm assuming the select board is also the appointing the uh the um the liquor board. Yes. I mean there are depends on the on the size of the community. Like in Beverly, when I lived in Beverly, I was on the liquor commission. That's that was independent. Um but the select board as I worked in in some communities they have uh uh the select uh the select board was the uh uh was the appointing authority signed off essentially. We're designating him as our so 13814 allows us to do that too. I mean yes it does according to town council. Yep. That's exactly. So he can approve licenses but he cannot deny licenses for the one day. One day licenses. Yes. As long as get all the other signups. Yeah. Sure you want all that responsibility and suspend is I'm good. I have no objection to this. This was part of the process to try and streamline our meetings and make Yep. and our streamline our our packets. So any comments Karen? No. Thank you. It's moved that the select board vote to authorize the town administrator to approve special licenses, also known as one day liquor licenses pursuant to Mass General Law, Chapter 138, Section 14. Second move by Matthew, second by Chuck. All those in favor, carry. Gary, yes. Chuck, Chuck's

eye. Matthew. Matthews. Yes. Baron. Yes. Mark say yes. Thank you. uh discussion of the plans for performance evaluations for the town administrator, police chief and fire chief. So um I asked all of our these are our three director employees. I asked them to fill out their the performance evaluations are in two sections. There's basically um the goal section and then the the personnel section. I asked everyone to fill out their personnel section so that we could review it and get feedback back um before the elections so that it's the sitting board that does it. Um I know that the first year when Jerry and I started we were reviewing people doing reviews that we had no real business doing the reviews on. So uh this was just a way of getting that. Um so I I some sent the reviews to everyone, some sent the reviews to me. I will forward them to the rest of the board. If everyone could um respond, give your comments or your feedback to me, I will collate it and come up with a um a summary feedback and you know average evaluation based on that and then um I don't know how people want to feel about presenting that. I didn't ask people to do the goal section because the goals you can weigh whether they completed their goals whether you're on the board or not. So, we don't have to give them the complete review yet. Or we could. I don't know what people think about that. And some people didn't like Chief McCertie doesn't have goals because he didn't go through the process last year. So, we we always we always run into the problem of, you know, any feedback we give has to be public um when and then it's official. I thought we figured that

out that we didn't have to do it publicly if we don't do it in a meeting. Well, the the review the document is a public record so it be in a um a packet if you will um so that pe everyone can see the um the results if you will but that's I don't think it's any further than that basically as soon as it gets aggregated that it has to be in order for you to share back with us it has to be public so so I'm I guess I'm okay with that process it's you know but we we've struggled with a way of presenting feedback to our reports without you know showing everybody airing the dirty laundry if there is any not that there is any but in this case so I I'm fine in this today we I will be happy to send you my feedback and let you aggregate it and then just see the result when it gets shown to everybody else and all this gets held even your input gets held at HR I believe for in a personnel file three to five year I can't remember the okay sorry that's why it's public it's public record the only question I have is in the aggregation I think Donna Brewer had done that for us in the past. We've done it both ways where we had town council do it and last year um I think I did it um because it came in after. So if you'd rather have town council do it, I don't have a problem which I do. Are you are you cheaper than $260 an hour? Yeah, let's have Mark do it. So yeah, what's your rate? Okay, great. Okay, so I will get those out and if everyone can give me feedback. um in the next week or so. That was very excellent. Thank you. Uh request by Bransfield. Yes. So, um one of the things I talked to John about was the well. Um he um I know that I don't know if you all read the email from from Eric and Steve. Um Steve said, you know, 10 gallons a minute isn't enough to do anything. But

what John is going to do is he's going to basically pump into a sistern and then use the sistern to water when he needs it. So the well the existing well even if it's only 10 gallons a minute is going to be sufficient for his needs for the immediate future. He talked about the fact that in the long term he will need um a more significant well but that he was going to pursue grants through MDR which are available for the town to apply but he would fill out paperwork in order to help offset the cost which could be significant. So, in my mind, he's willing to basically work with us to only use only require a pump for the existing well, which is in the order of $2 to $3,000. Um, which is going to get him through this year. Um, I spoke to Ryan Ferrara about this and Ryan pointed out that in the in the lease there is language that says that the le is responsible for irrigation equipment. Um my contention is that that would be that this is more like infrastructure. If if the house wasn't getting water, you know, we would consider deliver of delivery of water to the house or the barn part of part of the um infrastructure that the town would be responsible for because we are responsible for capital improvements. This is a small amount of money which wouldn't normally rise to the level of capital, but I would advocate for us to install this pump as part of the infrastructure of this of the of the orchard that we are responsible for as a town. And that's why I'm that's what I'm bringing to you as a board. Um, okay. I I mean that that makes sense. The I'm just thinking of the bigger picture of the well itself. Um, we are the we're the owners. The property needs a well for a tenant to to

live in. So, I think long term we have I I like the MDR idea and the the grant, but I I do think we need a a plan in place to like we talked when we have to replace a joint effort when we have to replace a roof or something major structurally over there. I know we have a plan for that. Well, I mean, the house has has town water, right? Yeah. So we're talking about a well would be added only for irrigation of the APR land. So we can separate the house habitability from the infrastructure for the for the farm which I think is an important distinction. And I do think that if we do need to put a well in for the farm, which I think is based on the language of the lease is our responsibility as the owner, I think that that is where the grants from MNAR would would really probably be very likely to help us defay a substantial portion of the cost. This buys us time if nothing else. Well, this that definitely buys us like a year at least, I'd say, until we have to worry about um Well, and John is planning ahead. I mean, I think he will give us if he knows the the grant cycle, and he does, he'll say, "Okay, November, we're going to start let's start talking about this grant cycle." I'm surprised they can any water out of that well. I was surprised just to hear you say that. I was like, "Wow." Well, Skillings tested it and they got 10 gallons a minute with a with a with a test pump, a temporary pump. So, Yeah, I think in good faith, especially with him already committing he's going to update the you know, he's being a good tenant, you know, a good he's taking all the trees out, you know, that we were pay. So, I think that at this at this price, I'm on board. We have money set aside for this, correct? I mean, we well, there's $50,000 that we've allocated for the orchard before that I don't think we've spent all or most of the things that potentially we didn't we didn't earmark it for anything specific, but I suppose if we're going to do a transfer, that would be the obvious place to take it. So, the lease payments and things from

the orchard now are not being set aside into a separate fund. Currently, there is no line item in the budget for the orchard board this year. There will be lease payments coming in, but they're just going to the general fund. So, he's already made the first payment. Yeah, we'll we'll just have to we'll have to deal with that after this after town meeting. We'll have to figure out how to how to approach that. Karen, do you have any input on this? Um, I'm just curious. So, we've been talking about hiring a some sort of management company or consultant. Um where where is that money going to come from? So that money the the also from the orchard line. Yeah that the intention was to use the lease payments to to pay for that. Um I am speaking to MDAR about that and they I haven't closed the loop with DIA yet but that should be it may be that that that MDAR will do it as part of their normal oversight. Oh wow. Um, I'm not going to promise that, but it's a possibility. If not, I don't think we're talking about a substantial amount of money. This is a service that conservation restrictions get get reviewed every year. It's it's not an uncommon thing to happen. That was in a few thousand. So, we're thinking in terms of annual review, correct? Yeah. annual review in the Yeah, in the range of a few thousand is what we've heard. Okay. And do you So, do you have any objection to the pump? No. Okay. Do we need a motion? Um, Jim? Um, no. Okay. So, thank you for the Thank you. That's all I think I've got for the orchard today.

Okay, moving on. Um, the contract for with TEC for design services. Uh, yes, this is uh what I was referencing earlier earlier, Mr. Chairman. Uh it's the $160,000 contract um for tecing for the design services uh for the infrastructure grant program for five up at 550 king. Any comments? Glad to see the money's there. So all right, let me find the move that the select board vote to authorize town administrator James A. Dugen to execute a contract with TEC, Inc. for $160,000 for design services to support the $1 million housing works infrastructure program grant for public infrastructure improvements at 550 King Street. Second move by Matthew, second by Chuck. All those in favor? Gary. Carries. Yes. Chuck. Chuck's eye. Matthew. Matthews. Yes. Karen. Karen's yes. And Mark's a yes. Great. We have Mr. Uh we have town council that has joined us for the uh for item number five. Okay. Uh general update and vote to remove any articles from the town meeting warrant to discuss town meeting related matters. Um Tom, if you just uh let me just give a a brief introduction. Uh here we have uh the the the general update here. uh we've got approximately I think we have 33 articles uh and uh and we uh wait uh for the uh town moderator to determine what will be under the consent agenda and then uh so that is still be determined but getting back to what you pointed out earlier Mr. chairman. Uh we have uh on

May on May 6th is the town meeting. We have the select board finance committee joint meeting at 5:15 that is held which is followed at 6:00 by the Shaker Lane uh information session uh right downstairs in the cafeteria over there and then until about quarter of 10 minutes to 7 where we will roll right go right into the uh the gymnasium for for town meeting. Uh we have town council um that that was is with us tonight for uh some amendments to that uh are open for discussion I believe on uh 12 and 13 articles 12 and 13 regarding the surplus uh of of town hall. Okay. I just real quickly I did notice that the the discussion is listed says to to remove or add or remove articles. We we don't have at this point we don't have the authority to remove an article. We have the authority to not move on an article at Tom meeting. Correct. I believe that's correct. Okay. So the it's kind of like a typo in the uh Yeah. Tim in the package. Tim gave me that crash course when I was talking to him. It's already printed in the board could reopen the warrant for the purposes of removing an article and then immediately close it back up. But, uh, council may have some thoughts about that and proper notice to the voters. But I'd be less concerned about losing an article than trying to add one to this. Yeah, good point. Uh, should we turn it over to Tom? Yeah. Okay, Tom, can you hear us? The floor is yours. I can hear you. Can you hear me? Yes, the floor is yours. Okay. Good evening, everybody. Tom Harrington, Town Council. Nice to see you all. Of course. Um, so I'm going to uh bring you right to motion or article

12. Um, and so what we So, so I I assume you have the rewrite of the motion for article 12 in your package. Uh, and so I'm going to go right to it and walk you through it. And so the goal here was to present two votes to town meeting. the first vote which is the first motion and essentially what it does is it takes the the the special act that we're proposing and breaks it into two. The first component of it is is to seek only the authority from the legislature to um avoid all the procurement and construction statutes other than the obligation to pay prevailing wage. And so that now reads as section one of the act. And section two of the act is just that this act will shall take effect upon its passage. So what this does is it seeks authority um only for the ability to avoid the typical procurement and um uh construction act um statutes as we move towards and it identifies three projects. Project one is the conveyance, lease, design, development, construction, operation, and maintenance of affordable rental housing at 37 Shadic Street. Project two is the lease of 37 Shadic Street by the town to use as town offices. And the third is the acquisition, design, development, and construction of new town offices located within the town of Littleton. So the I think the the

strategy the working strategy is that we would convey to a developer 37 Shadic Street. We would lease it back from the developer while a new town hall is being constructed um for the town and that we wouldn't move out until that new um until that new town hall is ready. So this I think the idea here is that it it gives the voters the opportunity to just vote on this which gives us the authority to go forward and make our plan. Are there any questions on that or should I move to motion two? Tom, I have a question. Okay. So, I I I know that with the low-income housing tax credits, it's imperative that the developer, whether it be in whole or as a partnership, be an experienced nonprofit affordable housing developer that has success in the low-income housing tax credits uh arena. With that said, if that entity of the partnership has control of the location, it ought for us to lease back the um to stay to stay here and then lease the space that we're in, right? Um, and I know that uh what our goal is for for for a for a nominal fee, but if it's a forprofit developer arm of that, won't we be required to pay the the real estate taxes? Pay ourselves or Yeah. Yes, we will. Okay. So, if they So, I So, it's a good point, Jim. So if

we're if we're selling it, you know, if we convey the property out, um, and remember, so the the trick here is that we need to give the developer sufficient control over the property, right? So that they can go forward and get their tax credits lined up so that those are in place because that that's the way they're going to make the profit on the construction is through the tax credits. and and we we know we're going to need to give them a window of I I think Judy Barrett quoted 3 to four years or 2 to four years to get that done. Correct. So, they need sufficient control of the property to do that. Um and if they have that sufficient control, then yes, I think we would likely either they or us would be required to pay real estate taxes on the property. But if sorry you're not uh so but if um if the if the partner the the nonprofit is the controlling partner of the project and is the lead applicant for the low-income housing tax credits. They then have control of it. So they're nonprofit. So we're not they're exempt from paying real estate taxes. So hence we're we don't have to pay that right. So if the so so I think I agree with you if the correct entity takes control here right um taxes might not be assessed. Thank you. So so just to back up though the first motion doesn't transfer control of anything. It just gives us the right to petition the legislature um for the special act. It doesn't we're not talking to any developer during this

time. It gives no transfer of control. It just moves the special act forward. Correct. All the Yeah. So it moves the special act forward and we can't start talking to the to any developer uh until the legislature approves the special act which which is a year a yearish process. Yes sir. Correct. Typically 9 months to a year. So I I have another question about the nonprofit having control. So I'm I think I'm concerned about getting into a situation where the town doesn't have a place to move and we don't have control over town hall. So obviously whatever arrangement we make, we're going to need to have, you know, language in it that we don't have to move until certain conditions are met. Is that going to create a a problem or a conflict with the controlling entity having enough control that the state is going to say, "Yeah, you have enough control for us to give us give us give you these tax credits." Good question. I mean, maybe that's a maybe that's a future U problem and not a current U problem, but you follow I I don't think that's a So, I don't think that's a problem. Okay. I mean, I I think they can still have sufficient control of the property and we can still tell them. And if you if if you jumped down to section four of the of maybe the extended act, which would be motion two. Yeah. It says the town of Littleton may lease back from the developer described in section three the building located at 37 Shadic Street for use as town offices until such time as the town of Littleton has relocated

its town offices to another location in town. Okay. So the the idea there is that the special act it's kind of baked into the special act that we're not leaving until we have a place to go. Okay. This I this is one of those things at town meeting you're there's a lot of language in here that's not confusing enough but so section one just says we can apply for the special act. It doesn't bind us to anything. Yep. Right. Even if the special act passes, we don't have to do anything. Section two, that's where we're giving control is transferring control is allowing us to transfer control. So what happens if one we didn't we don't have to go down that road yet, but I was just curious is there when we're talking the tax side of it, where else anywhere else in the state does a town offices at any level lease I'm assuming they lease property from other city of Walden. So, do they really involve? But that's probably probably not leasing from a nonprofit. I don't know if this is unprecedented or not, Tom. And you mean you I know you um support a lot of communities. This is something that you know we're we're sitting here leasing from a nonprofit. It's cir it's circumventing for for certain, but it's seems like lal circumventing, if you will, to Well, yeah. So I I guess it's yeah, this is a pretty specific situation that we're in. It's not unusual for a town to lease town hall, right? You know, oftentimes, so I can give you an example in Welssley. Welssley just redid its town hall. They just moved back in, I think January 1st, but they had to lease office space for about two years while the

rehabilitation took place. So the idea of leasing it is not unusual. And when you're leasing, um, you know, one of the things you typically do is to pay real estate taxes, right? Um, I'm just I'm having a thought because we hadn't really talked about this particular issue yet. I'm wondering if it's because if if we're leasing it for a municipal use, then then the tax would go away. I I will check into that and report back on that. Okay. I mean, that's a big piece obviously for me. I maybe I mean, everybody else has different thresholds on this, but it's a big piece for me. So, imagine that doesn't go away because the property's big piece that we is the big piece, Gary, that we not pay taxes or is it just that we not have to pay to lease space while the new the new space is being constructed? Yeah, I mean that's a to me that's important, but it really doesn't come into play too much until you get to motion two. So, one I'm just trying to get through the the legal piece which you know I know that's why you're here too, but just that whole piece of the the taxes that was brought up and what is the cost to town which can be a lengthy time period. I mean two three years of so I think motion one has no cost to the town. We're we're just asking this legislator legislators to move this forward. Yep. Right. It's no cost, no binding, no Yep. There's um no commitment on anything from the town. Yep. And I understand that's more of we're doing an investigatory. We've got options. We're keeping options open on this property,

that property, and this is kind of what what any board would do exploratory, see what's going to be best for the town affordable wise and and everything else. But what what we know, correct me when I'm misspeaking, Tom, is what we know is if we're going through this process, we're going to need motion one at some point. And motion one takes roughly a year to get through the legisl legislature. So, we need if we do this now, it gives us a year of getting our ducks in the row before we have to figure out what we're doing with this building. Right. Now, motion two gives us more more authority, but go ahead, Don. And I guess said said differently, Gary, this is a fairly complex transaction that we're talking about, you know, right? And it's this type of transaction was never contemplated by procurement laws or construction laws in Massachusetts. Great. Procurement laws are very much if you want to sell something, you sell it and that's the end of it. And if you want to buy something, you buy it and that's the end of it. And those two are never connected. And you know the third piece, leasing it is yet another thing that's not connected. Those are three separate procurements. But the only way I think for the town to, you know, kind of seek a creative solution here is to combine them all into one. And we need the legislaturator's approval before we do that. And it's we wouldn't be signing anything uh under motion one. It just gives us the authority to go out and talk to people. And we couldn't even go out and talk to people until the legislator the the legislation is approved. Okay. Yeah. I the president's part is what scares me just a little bit. But um

and that's just because you're putting the town in a situation where it could very well come in front of a judge who has to make a determination as opposed to precedence where we have something to reach back on. Maybe there is precedence that you just has you haven't come across, you know, for for comparables, but so which is the situation you're talking about? But I guess the liability one doesn't have a whole lot of liability with it for the town. No. So, okay. Um Karen, do you want have anything you want to weigh in on? No, I just think that we need to stay focused on the separation of these two motions, right? That's why we're doing this. Motion one, it has gives the town zero obligations. Um, it just makes sense for us to be able to move forward if we decide we want to move forward to not have to wait a year after that decision. Right. Right. So, I would just hope that we can all stay focused on the differences between the two motions. Okay. Are there any more questions or discussion on motion one at town meeting? I'm sure there will be. Yeah. So, okay. Do you want to explain motion two again, Tom? Sure. Okay. So, now we've got motion two. And motion two has um has an additional four sections. So the first section authorizes the town to convey all or a portion of 37 Shadic Street for the purposes of designing, constructing, operating, managing, and maintaining affordable rental housing. Section four authorizes the town to lease back from the developer 37 Shadic Street for use as town offices until such time as the

town has relocated its town offices to another location in town. And section five authorizes the town to acquire a parcel of land with a building or buildings thereon for use as new town offices. Section six says that development of the projects described in the assess may be conducted in one or more phases. Okay. So with with this authority we can actually you know the first motion allows us to start talking to people. The second motion allows us to start entering contracts. But remember, we would still need th this this doesn't authorize us to spend any money on any of these. So, we would still be required to come back to town meeting to authorize the funds needed to do one or any of those things. I don't want to be the one that keeps talking here, but so um alongside of this, I have to assume there'll be a legal binding contract for the developer because when you have words like the town of Littleton may lease back from the developer described in section 3, that's I I hate the words may in a legal document. I like will or shell sh you know so may that doesn't bind us by any means but none of this binds a developer right no so the so again the first part motion one allows us to begin negotiations the second part motion two allows gives us the authority we would need to enter into contracts but absolutely these

would be we would have I mean it's It's honestly it's three different contracts, right? It's contract one is what you're going to build, how you're going to build it, what what's it going to look like at 37 Shadic Street, you know, uh authority two is the lease back and what services are they going to provide to us while we're leasing back and contract three is, you know, what you're going to build and where you're going to build it for a new town hall. So, you know, it's it's the first is the is the authority to negotiate. The second is the authority to contract, but none of this comes with the authority to spend any money. That still would only come from town meeting at a future town meeting. But at that point, we could be this property could not we wouldn't be able to move back into this property. Well, because so as I see this Gary though, right? So we we're negotiating these contracts. We're not going to the contracts are going to have to be subject to approval for the funding by town meetings. So either we get everything that we want for free and then we don't need to come back to town meeting. I don't see that happening. Um, well, and so whatever money we spend, so whatever we it would it would be nice, I think, to bring back the the exact contracts to town meeting to say, "Here's what we negotiated and it's all subject to your approval because we need the funding from you and and those contracts would be structured in such a way that they interlock and they don't leave us, you know, with no town hall at any point." Right. Correct. Like I mean if we're doing our job right the problem with that this is this cart is already this has already happened. So you're doing this so you can enter into contracts.

When you say this what do you mean motion motion two let's okay has to happen before we can start contract conversations. So you're this has happened and been motion one has to happen before we start have to start conversations. Well, that correct, but motion two does as well, does it not? No, motion two needs to occur in order to sign those contracts. So, we can't si we can talk about the contracts once motion, you know, if the legislature adopts motion one. We can't even talk about them without that, but we can talk about them if we get motion one. We can actually execute them. Okay. If we get motion two, but but and I know I keep saying this, but that doesn't authorize us to spend any money. We would still need that authority. So So just to before to reward it, we have to have motion one. Yep. And then we eventually will need motion two either at this town meeting or a future town meeting where we need motion two or motion two prime where it also includes a funding source. Right. So, there's effectively a motion three somewhere in the future that says to allocate the money. If motion two doesn't pass this town meeting, though motion two will come at a future town meeting with probably with the funding. So, I guess that's my question. Why why aren't we just letting motion two run down the road? I mean, that's all. I mean, you might you've been involved in this since the start. you've put a lot of work into it. Um, and I I just worry that the community is going to see this and some of the same things that I see. There's a little bit of if se if motion two, why are we putting it in November? Well, because in my in my opinion, I don't want to get I don't want the message of

what the intent here is. It's to get lost in the fact that, hey, look, we've got a beautiful new library. We've got a beautiful new center on Shadic Street. We've got Look at Shaker Lane School. We want something nice and shiny, too. I don't care if we live in a treehouse, if we operate out of a treehouse. the the the main goal here is to bring forward the senior affordable rental housing because if you because when all discussions the way I understood it it was in a latter phase here's an opportunity to bring it to the to the forward to the head of the class if you want to say and it's going to be a lengthy process instead of it starting way back here and extending further out so I think by not including Motion two, you lose the essence of our intent here of senior affordable rental housing, not just a new town hall. Okay, we don't care about I do not care about and I I get it. I I just um I'm I'm having trouble with motion, too. That's all I I I appreciate what you just mentioned, and I I think it's I I just don't see if that intent is going to translate for us. I I think it's uh is there you know are there other ways to address the the deeply affordable housing issue as opposed okay to this location is there is you know the developer that we choose is there other locations in town is there smarter locations I don't know and that's I mean I get I get it this is an opportunity yep I do I do get that um you know I wish I had in hand like I had mentioned you know before that we an absolute this is what it would cost to chop this building old pieces off.

Keep a newer piece if you want to call it new and add an L kind of over by Hagar. Now we've got that whole side, right? Y and all this is open space and parking. What does that look like? What's the that's to me how we translate this more towards the town's people so they can say, "Wow, that's going to cost us $45 million to do that or it's going to cost us X opposed to this and and quite honestly and that that's the goal of what you have you five have have tasked me with of getting that data and we have really looked at subject matter experts that are in the in in the profession such as um an appraiser that that looked at this parcel and said the the building's not you know worth that much at all. I mean if and to to raise it would be $350,000 if you go down that road. Um the land the land is the valuable part and it depends on even still you'd think it was it was more it's less to put 40 units here in in in its place the land value was I think is approximately $800,000 you put uh 60 units it it goes up another 40,000 or 400,000 and then another 400,000 if there's 80 units here in in a densely part that that makes the land more valuable but not the building. Um we also going to we're going to we're continue to have the discussions with the subject matter experts to um really get a back of the envelope number on what it would cost for both rehabbing the existing this existing building as is and then um also what it would approximate cost what it would be for a new town hall 30,000 square ft two stories And uh that's what we'll be looking at. That's what we're trying to explore. I

mean, I know previous boards, Chuck, I think you were on kind of went down this road a little bit. Yeah. It's been subject to conversation for 12 15 years. Yeah. So, I don't know. There's no data out there on those. I I But the but also the the focus that was I believe that was started with when uh as Chuck was on the board. I mean, it was the the investments that the town made over the course since 2017, and it's we're just we're, you know, between the library, the senior center, pox and wreck, uh, the school administration, the veterans office, they're vacating the building. Uh so but the vision was that that is what's going to happen with this building because it has no it makes a hey listen and I get there's a that mindset drove a lot of this you know and there's the mindset that's can we do something here still and that I get that's those are the two competing pieces and and I I just worry about um the control aspect and that's so it let me just go down and I hate taking the time I want everybody else I'd love to hear what everybody else has to say but if we pass one we p we don't pass section two section two is going to come back up later on because we still now that we've got more information from the legislation that this is something that's definitely can happen uh we get a little more information we still can have another bite at the apple it's just we're behind now it'll be a year from now Yeah. All right. Go. No, I was gonna say one of the things that you're you're missing like there is a strong um feeling of saving this building. Sure. you know, so it's looking at the value with this existing, you've talked to some of those consultants and and

gotten like you said, you got to get the back of the envelope kind of what it would cost versus raising this building and then putting in 40, 60, 80, whatever it happens to be senior affordable, right? um just for the you know the big collic field and you know the fitting into Littleton and and creating this campus and um if it were modern apartments even if they were deeply affordable senior housing it's not going to fit in the same way as this building being renovated. Pardon? A town hall being here or the town hall being, you know, whatever that happens to be. But this building being saved is one of the components regardless of what these new articles say is there's there's a faction of residents that very much want this building to remain intact. Whatever capacity that happens to be, I don't think that's as much a factor as reusing this building in its historical relevance, I guess. Yeah. I mean, I'm just speaking for people that have come to me, you know, in my own vision. People say, "We drive through all kinds of towns that they're renovating these old brick buildings. Littleton doesn't renovate any of their they're building this." And I said, "Well, how many brick buildings did we really have? We're just we weren't a mill town." So, well, even Roden Bush in Westford Woodruff. So, I think that's an answer that we're going to have to have we're going to have to have an answer too to that type of question because without knowing the communities, I mean, you have a lot of gateway communities. You have a lot of money that that is invested in those gateway communities for for housing because it's got public transportation right there. It has a train station right there. Not saying we don't, but they actually have the re there are resources specifically aimed at um communities like that. Uh smaller communities. I can't and I don't know off the top of my head. So I would love to understand a little bit more of those

really more intimate communities of 10,000 to the 13 15,000 that's out there that that that the money's going the money's going back in and just from my in my previous position I remember in Western Mass there was a major issue with a mill building that there was there was zero interest in it. There was no state funding and it was uh uh there were there were a number of different issues because it was Well, there's plenty of those out there, too. Exactly. Exactly. So, um I'm I if if I'm absolutely I'm not opposed to to saving this building whatsoever and I would absolutely support it and I don't know the funding sources whether they will take a different view on it and look at it and say it's upside down. I'm just preparing for that message or okay, it's a it's a it's a good return on the investment. I don't know. So So Tom, if motion two passes, we come back to a future town meeting asking for funding. We have contracts in hand and ask for funding to basically execute on motion two. If motion two fails, we come back to a future town meeting with what? Well, so motion one would allow us to be to I'm assuming motion one passes. I'm saying if motion two fails but motion one passes, what do we come back to a future town meeting with some version of motion 2, three, and four to allow us to execute contracts and to, you know, so with with motion one, we can absolutely start talking to people. Um, but we don't have the authority to do anything. And so negotiations are only going to go so far when you say, "Hey, I'd like to sell you this building." Great. Let's talk about it. But we don't have the authority to

do it yet. So we just we wouldn't be as far along. We we'd be more kind of broad strokes, but not really getting into details, but the difference in the details are we still don't have the funding source. So unless I I'm trying to figure out what the difference is whether it passes or doesn't pass for motion two. So what I would say is if motion one passes and motion two does not pass and let's just assume the legislature adopts this legislation next February, March. Um that would so we would have a few months to talk to someone maybe before town meeting. Um but we wouldn't we we wouldn't get very deep into the contracts if so so then at so assuming it passes before and we have time to talk to people we would come into next town meeting likely looking for the authority to sell 37 Shadic to lease it back and to acquire a new parcel and construct a town hall. How if we get both motion one and two and it happens in advance of town meeting next year, we can come in with a much firmer plan about how it would all work and what the numbers would be on that I think. Does that make sense? So a little So that would mean that we're basically going to come back then at a let's just say that we were trying to get motion two. Motion two failed this town meeting. We'd be come back in May with a new motion two, right? But then we're still doing a motion three in a future town meeting asking for the funding or we're coming back at a future town meeting. If motion two fails, we're

coming back with two and three at a future town meeting. together. That's where I'm trying to get at. Yeah. And I and I I don't know that I know the answer to that, Mark. It's It kind of depends when the legislature acts on it and whether or not we have enough time to really uh, you know, get our project out there and start talking to people about it and see what's possible and what's not possible. Okay. Yeah. And I think that's Tom. I think I think I think that's the key because it's it's all dependent upon the legislature and it's up to us and when we want to present it if we feel in you know internally and say look we lesson learned um we need to be more proactive in vetting it and and understand that we're not going to do it in in in May. we probably won't do it until no next November, a year from November. And it's so that's a to be determined of where where we are. And it al also determine another big thing that we have to also take in consideration the partnership that we're looking to seek out there. Whoever those partners are, what where are they in their relationship? Where are they in that in that commitment and uh about with with moving forward? We don't we don't know. But at least once they pass it, then we can start having conversations and saying, "Okay, developers, nonprofit, for-profit, get together and we'll lease it back to you from a dollar and you have control and and that's it. Okay. Do you have anything? I guess one more thing I'd add. So if if we just go forward with motion one motions the and don't and don't move forward with motion two the authorities that are identified in motion two we can get we don't need a

special act to do that we can get those authorities from a from town meeting so it may be that we would just seek those authorities from town meeting okay do you have anything Karen No. Um, well, yes. I, uh, I just think we need to be careful when we're talking about these two motions. Um, you know, motion one authorizes us to talk once it's passed. And I think because I think that the timing and not losing a ridiculous amount of time trying to put this together is sort of the crux of why we're going to town meeting now. Um, so I just I just think we need to be really clear and I think when we say when you know motion one authorizes us to talk after it's passed, not just authorizes us to talk. Period. Because motion one doesn't authorize us to talk. Motion one authorizes us to talk subject to the legislature passing it. Motion one authorizes us to seek authorization to talk from the legislature. Yeah. I And I think there's a big difference between those two things. I I just I just wish motion one was the only thing on on this warrant and then we got some time. We get some ducks in order. we can now really start to show what the what it's going to look like if we were to do something here

without all of this. Um what the cost would be, all of these things. And then we've we can show um what that looks like, educate the public to say, you know what, it's just not feasible. As much as you know, some members on the board might want to have town hall here, this is the reality. And that's some kind of something that I've been after is what's that number look like? Is it just so ridiculous that you the town won't swallow it um the next 5 years, you know, or and your concerns your concerns of of of validated a thou a thousand%. It's I think it's an exercise we should go through to understand the message of of tell me we don't lose anything. No, I know it could be could be bloody though. We lose some time. it please. uh it's yeah I think it's something that we have to go through the through the exercise and and understand you know what information we will be able to be prepared when we do go back in next May or the following November or whenever the case is and and and understanding the pulse of what town meeting will be expecting from us because we lose nothing if we if it gets voted down in my opinion I I think motion one. Am I correct? Go ahead. Go ahead, Mark. Go ahead, Karen. I was going to say, am I correct that, you know, Gary, I I take your point that we need more information to be able to make our case um to go through with this. Um I wonder yeah would anybody disagree with this characterization that motion two authorizes us to be so that when we come back because no matter what we have to come back. So, if motion two passes, it authorizes us to come back

and be able to compare the cost of this deal that is negotiated versus renovating or doing, you know, doing nothing or etc., etc., or, you know, when we go back to town, are we only going to be able to talk about how much it costs to renovate? But they're not going to have the ability to compare and contrast that with the cost of what we can negotiate. Yeah. I I don't know. I I think I I take your point, Gary, but I think I think if I were a member, a resident, I would rather compare A, B, and C than compare B and C. And A is still not A's still TBD. Yeah. No, that's a good that's a good explanation for me. I I guess when you see the terms of putting on on if two passes Yeah. a yes vote, we've just created a let's be honest a one lane road. There's Y, right? Y you've Why? Because why? You've just sold the property. you would you trust? Well, you haven't, but you you've basically said you've put a you've put an enormous amount of faith in whoever we partner with, which let's let's say it's Le Industries, and I know they're a huge partner in town for other things. Y so we do hold a lot of cards there and as well as they do. We want a good relationship, but the issue is we don't own the we we we're trying to contract. If they say no, we can't come to an agreement. We cannot come to an agreement on a on getting a contract out on how all these things that we want that we're putting in into this. Um what then? Yeah, but I don't I I I think we're getting I think a little bit we're getting lost there. There there's not as much negotiation as you think.

And hear me out for a second. Maybe I'm I'm off I'm I'm I'm off. I'm just thinking what other people So it's it's it's it's really it's it's straight numbers of what it would cost for for rehab. It's a straight number what the value of this property is. It's a it's a pretty straight number based upon what a new location would be and and it costs us nothing for them to go through the process because they have to present to the state and ask for the housing tax credits. We're not putting any money into the deal. It's not like we're we're negoti you know we are putting we're making an exchange with the property but those numbers are secure by by by the appraisal and by law we can't pay more than the appraisal. So and here okay we have property XYZ and here's a location for 30,000 square ft and it's $500 a square foot and it's it's it's straight but there's no negotiation. So, it's more of a getting all the data as tight as possible for where we're concerned and have no surprises as as far as we're concerned. They can have the surprises all all they want between themselves and and that partnership with the development for this as they go through the state process. We have nothing to do with that. [Music] Um, I think we're in a and they could turn around and say we can't get the, you know, they may not be able to get the tax credits for two rounds, but they'll get the tax credits, but it's a it's like MSBA funding. So, it's and meanwhile we're here for a dollar a year and then and the goal and we're waiting to develop senior affordable housing and hopefully it's in this building. I would love that. I would absolutely love that.

Thank you. Good evening, Stephen. Uh, finance committee. Um, I just want to voice my concern one more time on section four. It says the last sentence has relocated its town offices to another location in town. Doesn't mean we that doesn't preclude us from having to move to a temporary location. We shouldn't be allowing that. I don't know how binding this this article is in contract negotiations, but it should refer back to the town hall being built in up above. Number three, permanent location. That's what you're Yeah. Mhm. I know, Tom. Your office kind of shot it down the last time, but it's open-ended. I I I don't think that's in the best interest of the town. Can I respond to that, please? So concern Steve, but I think where we pin that down is in the contracts with whoever we strike a deal with and not in the special act because the special act is specific. And you know, there might be a reason that we want to move to a temporary location as opposed to a permanent location. Um, but we don't have to. But if we say, you know, we're only going to move once our permanent location is complete, then then the legislature has told us that's what we're going to do. We can still do that through the contract. I I I prefer to I prefer to handle those types of things through a contract where

we're going to get into real specifics and not through, you know, kind of a 14 sentence special act because I I think it it can come back to bite you when you're not expecting it. That's been my experience anyways. But I I take the sentiment as I agree with the sentiment wholeheartedly. I just think it's the the place to address it is not in the special act. It's in the contracts. Yeah. Through the chair. I um you know, I thought I thought about that as well, but you know, I think Tom brought up a good any town hall that's ever moved, renovated, rebuilt in that location. All the employees are moving to a temporary location while that's being done. So either way, I felt a little more comfortable with that because if some crazy thing happened and this town hall had to go to a temporary location like the fire department did during renovation. I mean that's my fear is we go there and we never leave. Yeah. That's okay. Now now that's more that would be more of a concern. That's my fear as well. Sure. And and then you're especially getting into a position where we go there with with promises that don't pay pan out. So things happen, right? Right. Sure they do. Change, but I'm not convinced that there's any I'm not convinced there's any way to completely avoid that risk. But I guess I do think with Tom like probably the place to do that is in a contract in a in a web of contracts. What's going to be all these interlocking contracts with all the different uh transactions that are going to go hand inand here. So I I'm just reading section four and it says until the town office is until the town of Littleton has relocated its town offices to another location in town. It doesn't bind us to move until we want to move then effectively right they can't kick us out. That's that's the purpose. I mean as a for instance there's nothing

in here that says they can kick us out. That's determined by the select board or you want that kind of say until we have relocated. It doesn't say that we will relocate on any. It doesn't have any event under which we will relocate. It just says until we relocate. I can play what ifs. Yeah. Well, like what if I'm a developer. What if something happens to 37 Shadic Street? Yeah. It becomes uninhabitable for some reason. Yeah. Right. Right. You like know what hospital did? Like uh no gloss the city hall. That's a flood because he had to move out because of the wind for the tower. It was unstructural. Had to move out for for 2 years. Yeah. Yeah. I know the the moving out part in temporary places. That's unsettling to a lot of people and I get it because it's a pain and it costs the town money to do that as well. Um, but you that the concern the concern there would be I'm a little bit more I feel like there's a little bit more control through contracts of that and depending who it is if it is 550 developer. there's a whole lot of negotiation that's still going on with 550 on a whole lot of other things that um that developer depends on us for and vice versa back and forth. So I think that's a good point. Um as long as we have a lot of that at play, I'm that developer doesn't make me as nervous, believe it or not, as somebody else that comes forward with a slam dunk. Oh my gosh, this person, this developer sounds like this is a much better deal for us. some maybe an unknown entity or someone new in the picture. That one makes me a little bit more nervous with this because yeah, what's we don't have the leverage. We have an enormous amount of leverage right now with with uh with 550. So, I share your concern with how it was originally worded where it said

when we will move when either there's a new building or um they need this for affordable housing. Right now, it just says we're in it until we decide to move. Right. It just says until such a time as the tunnel Littleton has relocated, there's no condition under which in this wording that forces us to move before we're ready to move. It's won't be our building at that time. It may not be our choice. We don't have to land it. Well, contractually we can we can Well, that's so it's up to you guys. Thanks. No, thanks for Steve bringing that up. I mean, that's every every piece of discussion we can have on this. helps us answer questions that are going to come up. And I have one more question for Tom. Tom, motion one would be um just majority. Would motion two be 2/3 since it's majority. Both are majority. But to sell a a parcel of land, isn't that two/3s? This isn't the sale, though. This is the authorization. It authorizes the sale, right? But we're asking for a special act. And so to seek a special act requires a majority vote. Okay. And once the sale went through, Tom Meing would have to have a 2/3. Well, so assuming we're going to need money and assuming that we're going to be borrowing money, yeah, it would be 2/3. And and in fact, even if we weren't borrowing, I think it would still be a two-3. It's the transfer of real property. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Mr. Veni. Anyone else? No. You sounded kind of confident on that 805 thing like a couple of hours ago. I didn't know how much Gary was going to talk. Hey, Gary happened. Rob Browns uh attended the meeting the

other night of presenting the 37 Chadex Street options and heard the public tried to hear the public with regard to Shaker Lane issues as well. I'll just throw out with regard to section 4, some of what I heard at the public meeting the other night got into aspects I think Gary you were speaking to with regard to people appreciating this building and some people really rallying around the concept of of wanting this building in some way. I don't see section three as giving you the opportunity or I or I'd encourage you to really these two motions. You have the ability to really present to the town voters what the rehab of this building would be for purposes of maintaining town hall. I often find myself feeling like voters really need to hear that options and those plays, that evaluation, but not that you folks have done it privately because you always do, but rather the town voters are presented with it so they really understand it very very succinctly and clearly. And so that's one point I really encourage. Make sure that you've got that ability at a future meeting in order to present those pros and cons because I think otherwise a lot of people are just going to resent that you're tearing down a you raising a building. Secondly, might be really stupid idea. haven't talked with anybody, but I think the heartstrings with the deeply affordable housing AMI really can move people because it does. But aspects of yet another new building that's shiny, I think Jim used the word shiny and you're willing to you'll I forget how what you described is you'll go anywhere. house. Well, in the Shaker Lane, I've attended the tours and the discussion

after the tours and people don't like the idea of tearing raising sher Shaker Lane for 3 to four million that they can get, you know, from MSBA to to take care of that building. They want some people seem to want that building. As I heard the argument at the most recent 37 Shadic Street, I started to hear aspects in the laundry list with regard to the problems in this building look something similar to the problems with Shadic Street. Not shocking this building, excuse me, Shaker Lane. Not shocking in that this building's much older than Shaker Lane, but that then it's each of them have their different additions. So I just want to say there's some aspect that I could see the public coming to you and saying why not do the deeply discounted you know here and don't make you know I'm not trying to say I support this but I could see others saying don't make us purchase yet another x million dollar building for a brand new shiny town hall etc. So, just wanted to throw those two so you can start to juggle and try to figure out you've got the ability to communicate pretty directly on those two issues because I think I think I've heard at the two meetings I've referenced different aspects of the public that really seem to have passion with regard to those points of view. So, I just want to throw this out while you're talking about it. Thank [Applause] you. Okay. Anything else? Are you set, Karen? and set. Thank you. Okay. So, uh, article 13 um was the um surplusing of this

building. Correct. Um, and I uh so one of the motions is to uh take no action, revise our support and vote to take no action on that. Um, is there any discussion on that? I I agree with that. I agree with the motion as well. Okay. Okay. So just be so we're okay with that and we're okay with what Tom presented on 12 for the motion or do we want to do those motions separately or I'm okay with both both of them. I'm both I'm okay with with revising our recommendation on 13 and taking no action and I'm okay with the revised 12 that Tom presented. The question is you want to vote them together or separate car? Yeah, I I probably am not I'm probably not in favor of the second section for the 12. So I if we can break it up, I'd appreciate it. Okay. Sure. So do you want to do the first Should we do the first one on 13? So move that the select board vote to revise their March 24th, 2025 vote supporting article 13, authorize a surplus of Littleton Town Hall to allow for the development of affordable rental housing at 37 Shadic Street to recommend town meeting take no action on article 13. Second move by Matthew, seconded by Chuck. All those in favor Gary? Gary say I. Chuck Chuck I. Matthew Matthews yes. Aaron Aaron say yes. Mark say yes. And are we ready for the second one? For the second my my motion on article 12. Yeah, we've had plenty of discussion. I'm just not there yet. Move that the select board provides a revised motion for article 12, authorize special legislation to surplus town hall, 37 Shadic Street for affordable rental

housing, and pursue the purchase of a new town hall and added to an amendment handout for May 6th, 2025 annual town meeting as approved by the select board. Second move by Matthew, seconded by Chuck. All those in favor, Gary is a no. Chuck I'm going to vote no. Matthew. Matthew's yes. Karen, yes. And I'm a yes. Okay. So, so it passes three to two. Um, sorry. And we can And to be clear, your objection was not to the first part. It was to the second part. Yeah. Okay. That was all. I mean, I guess I could have made a motion and it it would have probably had the same result if I made a motion to just move on one. Yeah, I understand. I think so. I didn't It was I think I understand where you're coming from. So, I just wanted to clarify and I'm not and I just want to make sure it's on the record that I'm not against this idea, right? You just don't think it's the time to do both of them. Yeah, I get it. And I get and I I feel horrible with Jim and I because I know work you put into this as well. I just I appreciate that. I I still have a lot of questions on this property that I I want to get resolved. I agree with you. That's that's it. I don't want to be labor. I agree with you and I'm much more I'm I'm definitely in favor and moving forward on motion one. Motion two, I'm okay with either way on. I'm okay with letting the voters decide. I think that's what I was going. That's where I came down on it. Yes, that was Mike. But I think I guess I'm always in favor of more information. Um, and so I think if we're going to come back to the town, the more information we can present to them, the better. And so that's why I think it's it's worthwhile to try to seek that authorization to get

more information. It's fair. But I'm I agree with you. I'm much more concerned about motion one than motion two. So, um, and then there's also Thank you. Um, the lot 107B, which I don't think we have a motion for specifically. That was just information that says Light and Water is okay with the 107A and they have a plan. Um, bond. Yeah. Um, so I would just say that making that we've already made it excess or surplus. I'll keep saying excess until the day I die. um surplus. Um it does limit potentially what we can do with the property right next to it be because um keeping that in select board control may be something that we're more likely to do because if we did need access. It sounds like that was the piece of land that now LightMart is more comfortable with using anyway. So just they ruled out being able to use the other land. Yeah, pretty much. But they wanted to be very careful that who knows with new technologies and things down the road. Who knows? It looks like even the the half that we're keeping is problematic for for a lot of it. So potentially. Yeah. So I think I think it's a fine way to go. Okay. Um Oh, minutes. Are we on to that? I'm sorry. I just add Yep. No. Any corrections? Okay. Move that the select board vote to approve the meeting minutes from the select board meeting on April 7th, 2025. Second. Moved by Matthew, second by Chuck. All those in favor, Gary. Yes. Chuck. Thank you, Sue. Yes. Matthew. Yes. Karen. Yes. Mama. Yes. Motion to adjurnn. Second. Moved by. Thank you, Tom. Matthew. Second by Okay. Good night, everybody. Gary. Yes. Thanks, Tom. Matthew. Yes. Karen.

Yes. Mark said yes. So, thank you everyone. We'll see everyone at meeting. Good night, Karen. Good night. Good night. Thanks everyone.