Board of Health - Regular Meeting

and welcome to the town of Littleton Board of Health meeting for today March 12 2025 in attendance this evening we have myself Matt Wason board members Kevin Davis Dan Kane and Gino fatalone and our health director Francis dagel our first agenda item tonight is a discussion about basements and additions and how we calculate room counts and determine what size septic system is appropriate Francis would you like to facilitate this conversation to start can't hear sorry uh would you like me to share screen on this I can't hear you yes yes please all right okay so this was um Kevin Baker's idea of what maybe we could look at for a local rig um essentially it's going to be calling for 400 square ft um and if we're looking at basements and there's other language for also rooms if it's less than eight okay so for existing structures in which the total room count is eight or less a bedroom shall be defined as a room providing privacy consisting of the

following indent so those points one through five are directly from 310 CMR 15002 yeah that as a definition of a bedroom um of no less than seven can you guys hear me yep okay C only had no less than 7 feet I think the uh room height requirement for the building department I think is 6 feet 8 in again points 1 through five are directly from 310 CMR 15.2 so that's what we would already be using right now State Environmental code are you are you asking if it should be changed to something lower I think it's meant to be on the code I think one was updated before another was updated so they might conflict so if you have a stealing so right so this is for new construction right so not for this is for existing construction so you're having so what you're saying is that a bedroom is not going to in a total room count of eight or less a bedroom in an old house needs to have ceiling height of 7 feet don't think that's possible I we'll check that I I think

that's um something we can check after the fact I think what we're really need to focus on is is 400 square feet do you think that's a reasonable size I guess so that' be like a 20 by2 room but that's outside of the bed that's outside of the things I'm looking at I'm looking at a right now okay right so I'm saying for existing structures total room count less than eight shall be defined as a room providing privacy consisting of the following so floor space 78 get a gut it for new construction a ceiling height of no less than 7 foot3 again have a problem with that because I don't think that's the building code and I understand Matt where you got it from CMR you know 310 CMR 15.0 right that's what that's what gim graphy has applied previously I so we never talked about ceiling height except when there was a violation of the one room where they came in and inspected it that was the only time in the last three years we've talked about ceiling height for room count I I think he has never brought a plan to this board that had a room that was less than 7 feet and that's why it has never been brought up to us Dan you raise your hand um I was going to say so we we've identified this in the past that the State Building Code there is a variation between the building code and the public health code so this definition that falls under Public Health pieces is not complete and I think it ceiling height does not completely agree with the State Building Code so and that's perfectly fine fine cuz we look at it from public health perspective they're looking at it from a building perspective it does they don't need to agree as long as whatever it is meets the criteria um for each

body this is coming from the code so we can grandfather because we've seen we have some you know a 1730 house here in town that's got a ceiling height of 63 we're not going to say this is no longer a house or a room it is simply a pre-existing structure that we're going to Simply say we're wave that that requirement if it comes up which we've done in the past I know we did have that one with after an inspection that the ceiling height did not match for part of the room and that was a concern that had to go through us and building to decide whether that was considered a habitable space um and I think we decided it was not considered a habitable space so it's I I'm hearing Kevin that yes there is a difference one there's a difference between building code I think here in town and public health code but the second piece of I agree I think for new construction and for existing is fine and if something is pre-existing less than that we can always wave that requirement or we say it's not habitable and that's a whole different discussion but but I think this is going to room count there is it not well this is just the definition of a bedroom right now I believe right but it does create an interesting scenario where a really old house where all of the ceilings are 6' 6 in would effectively have zero bedrooms based upon this language exactly yeah true okay and therefore could add as many rooms as they want because they would have zero bedrooms ever so yes that I I think that um there needs to be some additional language yes that says we we still need to identify a bedroom in a house that no rooms meet this definition or it becomes some maybe it's just a footnote there at the end of a that says if no rooms meet this definition or rooms are clearly used as bedrooms then it just needs to come to

the board for discussion so I think I think what we should do is have a minimum it's is relax the minimum height if Dan knows of a house and that's you know in town that's from the 1760s 1740s I forget Dan poies and it was a 6'3 then you know do 63 I hear what you're I understand what you're saying Dan as fars you know health code versus building code what I'm trying to do is that this is a definition of a bedroom that's what I'm getting at I know and and the reason it becomes important for this version of the language is that the normal version of the language is this just this is how you count a bedroom with this criteria and then everything else counts as a room towards your system but since we're talking about this total room count of eight or less we're trying to find a way to nail it to say okay well those size houses are are a little different so how can we do a calculation that is not based upon dividing by two and then likewise I'm sorry and likewise for new construction where the room is 73 so that means if somebody builds a room less than that it doesn't count as a [Music] bedroom correct and for our code they would not be able to use it as a bedroom I I think we're going to fall in the weeds with building code requirements so I I think we need to table this I can ask the question um to D but we got to be careful how we Define

that if otherwise um so let's just table height okay so point a is about existing structures with a total room count of eight or less point B is about existing structures in which the total room count is nine or more another rabbit hole that we dive into is when are we counting the rooms because this whole thing is about an existing dwelling that is to be expanded so is this the pre-existing room count or the planned room count I believe it's planned and I know Fran what you say that Kevin Baker drafted this correct yes yeah and he's not present so we aren't going to necessarily get answer to all these so let's just make note of the questions that we have so that we can kind of address it and okay part of part of the sticking point was is I don't know if it's necessarily starting with the room count as opposed to starting with the size of the septic because that's kind of where this really came up is we don't typically see plans for septic systems that are less than a three-bedroom for example and the rules don't apply as well when you have a really small septic system so is it about existing structures that have this many rooms or is it about frankly existing structures with a really small system is that where we need to apply a different calculation um I'd go back to again I think we need to separate adding additional living

space versus finishing basements I agree that's what I've felt previously but whether it's a basement or not the criteria still needs to figure out when are we applying it and the way this is drafted is it's applied based upon a room count period as opposed to applying it based upon a system so I I would want chew on this a little more and kind of run through some scenarios you know what I mean to say well what what if this plan was presented to us how would we follow these rules and where would it lead us um and and I think the recent one we had would be a good example because I had a small system so the room count didn't quite feel right or the typical room count divided by two didn't quite feel right so we were trying to figure out another way to go now Francis your point C is about okay well what about a square footage so in this case it's recommending that any room other than a Kitchen dining room or living room in excess of 400 ft shall be considered two rooms the 400 square feet is uh a measurement that had been used historically correct we haven't done anything historically in terms of square footage is just what it looks like on paper essentially so no I believe that I what I'm saying is that Littleton used to have a square footage rule oh yes yes my understand was it 400 or was it 300 um I think it was 300 but I mean mind you probably when it was in place houses weren't as big as they are being built now so yeah um so I apologize I missed the previous time this was discussed but I know one of the things that Jim graphy and I talked about for this is that there was a period of time where the this square foot rule existed and was

applied quite strenuously and yes there were some newer housing designs coming out with lots of open space floor plans and Jim Jim felt that there were some houses that got oversized systems because of this strict square footage rule so you would end up just ballooning your room count simply because you have large living spaces between your kitchen and dining room living room um obviously here there's that that's that language is added so you could say any room other than a Kitchen dining room or living room and maybe that's a good enough of a safety that to avoid that prior Pitfall so that would be any room larger than 20 by 20 yep um another stick in the Cog would be um the new Adu that we kind of touched on last time um so that might impact and I've heard through the great find that D is going to be coming out with some kind of guidance in terms of septic systems and adus um so that could change the conversation as well in the next month good um but yes I feel like this mostly applies to the basement stuff where somebody finishes a whole basement or a bunch of a basement which is easily over 20 x 20 um I guess at the same time if somebody wants to add a room on the main floor that happens to be 25 by 25 does this create just a an area where they can say well we we will Define it as a living room then because it will then fall outside the criteria as written do we care is that fine I think that's that's just something that we should we should think about um what about a family

room I agree should that be added to this list of call outs is it so if I build that room off the side and I call it a family room I'm good if I call it an office I'm in trouble I can have a thousand family room bed shown on it right a th squ foot family room is one room a thare foot office is I read that to be two well it doesn't say each 400 it just says any in excess of 400 so I could have a 2000 foot family room and that would count as two rooms the way it's written or or I could easily argue that counts as two rooms once I hit 401 anything bigger than 401 no matter how big it goes is two rooms which may which may be fine right like and I'm not say yeah I'm not saying either way but that may actually be totally fine and avoid a problem of just divide by 400 and round up I mean that that's that's scary yeah so that might be a great guideline actually to just say yep you just cut it in half and it's two that's that's your tally now so what about a foyer that's a two-story foyer does that count as one room or two uh foyer is a hallway and so by by higher level rules that's not counted as a room no matter what okay all right uh got bathrooms hallways yeah unheated areas unfinished areas or historically don't count as rooms anyways so let's let's call out uh I I guess let's call out family room because it's parallel to living room

um or I wonder if a way to look at it is a a room that is that you know has a door basically is that something is that a way we should look at it open floor plan right so if you're expanding with an open floor plan in your s of family room then I'm probably gonna believe that it is a family room as opposed to an office as opposed to a wall with a door and you to call it your family room I might be like well is that is that what you're using that as it becom there becomes the sticking of current owner says yes I'm using it as a family future owner says this is a great guest room does that make I'm just trying to play not Devil's Advocate but just work through I'm doing that's whole thing I'm looking at a plan so I'm going to build I'm going to finish off my my basement because right now we're not there's no definition other than a walkout piece for a bathroom or for a basement that I've got my th scoot basement that I'm going to finish so I finish it off as one big room but I'm going to call it a family room so therefore it counts as one room even though it's a th square feet if I don't call it a family room simply because I forget to name it on my plan does that now make it a two two rooms even though it's the exact same space built this exact same way because I either called it a family room or didn't call it a family room play Space I've called it a play Space now it's two rooms I call it a family room and it's one that's so I I just want to make sure that we it's impossible to come up with a standard easy apply to everything but I just want to make sure that oh we'll toss family room in it and then everything that's a th000 square feet oh it's a family room so that way it only counts as one so therefore it does not affect Title 5 yeah I I think we've shot enough holes

in the language of C that it's it's taking us it's not going to take us in the right direction as soon as you try to apply some labels it becomes a label problem um If you eliminate the labels if it just says any room scratch in excess then you now you start to have a large open floor plan problem because of my open floor plan of my family room and my dining room and my kitchen which is 2500 square feet is only two rooms if we do it that way so where where can we land and and all of a it's starting to funnel us back to uh we're considering multiples of 400 uh unless you wanted to say something along lines of you know open floor plans where with designated usage areas are considered rooms and in a debate anything over 400 starts to get divided into into multiple rooms what's the intent I know there was one a while back that that there was a dining area adjacent to a kitchen and it wasn't a very big house the the so the square footage wasn't really high but it was debate as to whether that was a just a nook table that shouldn't count as another room or a dining area which would count as a room um if you kind of had this and you'd say okay honestly while it kind of looks like it would be a desne bace the square footage so small because you could combine it with the kitchen and it's not even 400 ft so you're good that would help

so here's what I would propose let's have basically Point C start with a more just firm statement of you know rooms that are in excess of 400 square fet shall be considered two rooms caveat open floor plan design may may include more rooms based upon how the how they are functionally designed and used or functionally designed it can't even say used because it gets into a owner to owner problem okay and that that does bring up like the basement and I know we have another basement discussion but that's a common basement idea right well I want this half to be the movie room movie area and this half to be the exercise area that would then appear to be a open floor plan if there was no wall right open floor plan we would say well it's two functional area so it counts as two keep that in mind so now Point D is the one that talks about a basement and that's saying if there's an accessible exterior egress now we're saying if there's a bathroom then the rooms will start to count as bedrooms uh this was definitely one of the ones I was leaning towards some way to say basically if you've got that exterior access not a bulkhead if you got exterior access and uh bathroom uh or do you say Plumbing um I guess bathroom is probably sufficient that now those rooms are going to start to count as bedrooms no I don't agree with

that you can have you can have an exterior egress and that basement is for is not considered a b a bedroom at all and there's a bathroom down that that's that's I don't I don't agree with that but tell me more just because there's an egis it doesn't matter it just because you've got windows and a door down the basement doesn't mean so now what you're doing is you're taxing somebody uh a bedroom because they happen to have the ability to walk out of their basement and their own Windows yeah so where it comes from for me it was uh a plan that we had that it was a walkout basement so full fulls size windows along one side and they had a bathroom they had a wet bar a refrigerator and then they were putting in three rooms I I I hear you but I I had a problem with it too but I it it's basically we're taxing someone then by increasing their room count from a four-bedroom to a five-bedroom house if you have exterior Eris but if I have a bulkhead I can do the same layout and I won't have an exterior bed I won't it won't be counted as a bedroom yes I that is exactly how I feel um I would like to not try to say taxing because this has nothing to do with taxes and I wouldn't want anybody to get confused that this is then applying to a tax thing this is a health thing and uh because we create these rules about usage the concern is that if you make it look like you have an in-law suite or an apartment in the basement then there is absolutely an opportunity for a future owner to turn it into in-law suite or an apartment and if you're not applying the

bedroom count then then you will be exceeding the size of the system so so if I have so if I put in a egress window right if I if I say I'm going to put one egress window in the basement and it's still a bulkhead basement you would say that um if I did that because I was safety conscious right no no I'll stop you right there no I don't think a window counts and I'm not sure what Kevin Baker wanted accessible exterior egress to mean but I read it as a door if you have an exterior additional access to the property that could have its own lock and its own access then you've created a scenario where it's really easy to make a living unit and that's where the concern comes from if it's a basement with a bulkhead and you put some rooms down there I I think the odds are much lower that somebody's going to rent it out and have people come upstairs into the inside of the house to to come and go yeah I I don't agree with this just because you have a door or a slider or whatever and you you're disadvantaging that owner by saying okay now you're going to need to have a instead of a four bedroom you're going to need to have a five bedroom septic system okay that's the rule must apply the same to everybody and basement rooms are going to be counted the same as every other room in the house period okay right yeah okay so then nobody can finish more than one one room in their basement if they're close to their room count and so people who come with plans for three more rooms in the basement are it's going to be a hard no no it's not a hard no it's the same rule it's like okay if you're adding three if you're adding three rooms to the basement and you're over your room count

you know you do the math and you're over the room count or it's it basically says you need to have a five or six bedroom septic then that's what it is you're basic you're basically saying that if I put in a because I'm safety conscious and I put in an egis window and I have a bulkhead and I can do whatever I can have it's it's just in you know it's it's it's doesn't count as a bedroom at that point no no Kevin I'm not saying that if you put in an safety egress window that the rules change for you I'm saying that people who have door access door access so it's at ground level then yes it becomes a separate way to access the building and one of the examples that Jim gy has used to try kind of like evaluate usage is he's always looked at it as if you can easily have a secondary access point to that part of the problem property then you need to look at it seriously as living space so if somebody wants to finish and put in a bathroom and a playroom above their garage where you could easily have an exterior staircase he would have a hard time saying that's uh that that in the future could not become an additional living space therefore it must really be following the rules of the living space and the bedroom definition so I'm honestly trying to find a way for some of the basement to be allowed to have more construction because historically we have to look at these rules and as soon as we say you have a 70 squ foot space with a ceiling in your basement that's finished and a little tiny window that that is now meeting the the criteria of a bedroom therefore we have to count it as a bedroom and I feel like we've been too hard on a lot of plans when people want to finish some of their basement where the only way in or out is really a bulkhead and but at the same

time we can get those plans that clearly look like they could be a full-size apartment down there so where do we draw the line and make sure we're we're being safe and again making sure future homeowners are utilizing those spaces appropriately that's that's the concern it's never it's never the current tenant right it's always some future owner to say let's make sure this isn't listed on a real estate site as a gorgeous four-bedroom house with a uh you know inlock unit in the basement no I hear what you're saying I'm not disagreeing but what I'm what I'm what I'm getting at is um is it's tax might be the wrong word but that's it's essentially what what you're penalizing people that have Windows and a door in their basement you could look at it as yes I'm I'm penalizing them if they want to then design out multiple rooms in that basement um but at the same time if we don't penalize them then those are the properties that run the highest risk for having ballooned room counts that are technically not fair because they're actually adding bedrooms that's my problem is when when somebody says I'm going to finish uh a room in my basement with just little tiny you know ceiling height windows we we really think most likely that's never going to be used as a bedroom it could be you could always move somebody in there and have a family remember stayed down that room but we try to make sure we're being reasonably accommodating to what people are asking but if you put a space with Gorgeous Windows floor to ceiling windows and a bathroom with a shower how am I going to make sure that nobody ever looks at that as a bedroom because that's what would then be kind of breaking the rules that we've set for them so why don't you have the same rule

in for existing structures in which the total room count is eight or for existing sech total room count or nine right could we then have a the bedroom is defined in the basement just as any other room it has to be more than 70 square feet right it has to have a ceiling height of whatever the ceiling we get to it has to have electrical service and ventilation and at least one window that's the definition that we put in as a bedroom why can't we apply that to the same thing in the basement and in the basement because of those that's the problem is that people want to finish uh they want to put three rooms in the basement right they want to finish it and they all have a little tiny window in them and it's finished so they all have some heat and they all have electricity and so we would have to look at that and go you're putting three basements in your three bedrooms in your basement and you're going to blow away your count I I I guess what I'm trying to get at is there needs to be a way to aggregate the room count because I mean if we're finishing a basement and or you could just say hey if you're installing a bathroom into your basement you now have to um up your room count by one what if you just did that instead uh I think I get sticky because bathrooms are are clearly identified as rooms that don't count so to then say well but in this case we are getting counter bathroom I'm a little I'm a little worried about that well then you shouldn't have that in the statement too again this is this is Kevin Baker's attempt to kind of how do we I I just don't like that we've historically kind of tried to apply different rules to the basement

it's the same as when somebody comes in and says uh I want this whole thing and somebody suggests why don't you put up a partition instead of a wall well I have a problem with that because in an upstairs an open floor plan we still count as multiple rooms if the functional space is different if somebody has a kitchen and dining room we don't tell them there's no partition between those but we count them as two rooms so in a basement if if there's no physical wall but they're different spaces we say well put a partition up because then it then we won't count it as two we're already applying kind of some some different analysis to those two things I would just like it to be more structured if you want to treat a basement different we have to come up with clear language as to how to treat a basement if we don't want to treat a basement differently then we have to stop doing that kind of thing and follow the strict rules I think that would be the biggest disservice therefore I would like us to come up with some way to deal with a basement differently but at the same time I worry about that that in-law suite that just you know grows itself down there because it has that exterior access again same same thing as you know the the above the G when you have those areas where you're kind of building another apartment type area so I say I say if you don't have a bathroom included in the design then it's just standard rooms as soon as you include a bathroom you're making a bedroom in that basement area okay that's what D says no and includes a bathroom yeah but no it doesn't cuz the exterior egress get rid of the exterior egress oh you're saying you're saying door aside as soon as there's a bathroom that's when you should apply the new rule yep okay don't worry about SL more strict but I I could be on board with that so

get rid of the exterior egoss and say modification dividing a basement into more than two spaces and the modification also includes a bathroom it will be considered adding a bedro is it modification includes a bathroom or a bathroom exists currently or planned currently or planned and if you don't include a bathroom in the basement then it's just what is it just one big room is it multiple rooms what is it then right so that's that's the question if there's no bathroom down there do you care how many rooms there are damn do we really care if somebody puts an exercise room and a movie theater in their basement if that bumps them if that those two rooms technically bump them over and we have to say no or is that is that right we have in the past or do we want to allow it that's the that's the key question it's like do we think that's a health risk that they're going to exceed the size of their septic system because of that finished space in their basement and that's that's why I've said that's why I've said you know most conservatively if that basement does not have plumbing and does not have an exteror door then honestly I I have so little concern that of of a health reason to say no you can't finish that space that way as soon as you start to have those other criteria bathroom maybe door uh a kitchen um those start to raise eyebrows

to go well hold on maybe we maybe we to look more closely but that that's that's where our decision is uh some other discussion uh Dan haven't heard from a bit because Kevin and I have been dominating this conversation all good all good um we're focusing on basement get what we see most often I'm I'm trying to see if we generalize this if I was going to finish my thousand foot attic as opposed to my thousand foot basement I'm I'm trying to be consistent we talked about okay I'm going to build over my garage I'm going or going to finish that space over my garage or a bonus room kind of space that we're consistent I'm that piece of having a walk out basement I agree a walk out basement in the bathroom that is 10 minutes and a lock on a basement on an upstairs basement door to being an apartment so I I I think it does warrant if not necessarily in the RS certainly a different approach to how we consider things um I'm old enough school that you know what I've had lots of friends who lived in basement that had a bulkhead um let's be real like yep okay you know I I've been bunking with my my sibling now and we're both 17 or 18 and um that's not happening so somebody gets the basement and that becomes a bedroom um and then it's them and their partner and now it's a two people in that bedroom in the basement with a bulkhead even without a bathroom like no we just go upstairs like any other house with we many of us grew up in with you had four or five bedrooms with one bathroom so

that piece of it I agree like go I think a walk out basement a walk out or exterior standing exterior at I'm trying to come up with again his egress was not an egress window I am positive to the best of my ability to say Kevin Baker was not saying I put an emergency egress window so I'm in compliance with the law that that means now it could be a a an in-law kind of setup um but if I can walk out a fullsize standard Personnel door out of a an attic and down a Stairway or out of a garage and down a Stairway or out of a basement then it does perhaps warrant a different look but the space is the space and I think someone as kind of I think we're Kevin was trying to get to of saying I've got a bulkhead so it doesn't count I have a walk out or it does count is it's hard to put to to make concrete in in a rig um because I can easily put three bedrooms in my basement whether I have a walk out or not um and and meet all those other criteria it's okay it's 100 S ft and it's 7 ft tall and all those other pieces which would look as bedrooms with doors and closets as long as I don't draw a bed in there nope those are three office faces it counts as my room count but not a bedroom count it's all good and the fact I've got 17 kids in a three-bedroom house that's perfectly fine because these rooms don't count um I I think we ought to be consistent across I think the doors and bathrooms are triggers for closer observation and assessment but I don't think it's necessarily something we can put in rigs because then we get sew down gritty and now it's like the really good architect who nope it's 692 Square ft so it doesn't

count as a room I've got three of those 69 a half square foot rooms but none of them count I just try to make sure we're we're clear and consistent I think the 400 I'm with you on that piece of my I have I'm trying to count short of a bathroom door my first floor of my house I have no doors other than a closet the only door the only real door other than outside of the house is a bathroom in my first floor my house which is big enough um so it's back to that piece of how do I use my space I have kitchen I have dining room you know living room spaces that are clearly defined but don't have physical doors I get out of my basement it's not quite as clear defined but it's relatively defined but would count as one space I I think I think the multiples of 400 I agree would cause an artificial ballooning in numbers I'm using my house as an you know as in my mind that yes if I actually looked at 400 s ft my house my room count would be through the roof um I I think unless someone has a very unique construction setup where I'm going to have a two or 3,000 square foot open space that now counts as two rooms I think that's going to be the weird exception um I'm not sure how we put into RS that you know if we can put a above a certain number at the discretion of I hate

putting because that's that doesn't mean anything I can't work with that um I I think the 400 number for cuz this is really not looking at new construction that 400 that 400 number is looking at new or exp or not new it's looking at expanded spaces I have my th foot house and I want to finish my basement or put a sun room on or whatever I am whenever existing drilling is to be expanded either by an increase in footprint or reconfiguration of the Interior determination by so this is so new construction is following building code and our standard Title 5 it is what it is I would love to be make sure it's consistent between new construction and expansion but let's start with where we are so this is looking I'm making my house bigger or I am I'm thinking that reconfiguring is not it could be I've got a 500 foot room and I'm turning it into two bedrooms turning one room into two that's a change use and that would count if I'm building new or finishing a basement that's what we're looking at so in this case again I hear so this is new or expanding so our grand our grand our our Legacy houses who might not meet that 7 foot number we'll pick you know the 1700s house someplace in town that's not quite there um this wouldn't apply because those are already identified I'd say I think that it's I Dan it's

confusion as to whether like okay a or B are either or but I read C and D is applying all the time so clearly the structure of the of this document needs to be kind of cleaned up as like wait hold on which ones do I to follow is it ACD or is it a and that's it but I read it as more of a kind of C is a a rule that you would just apply all the time and obviously that can become dicey as well because someday that rule changes and somebody comes in and says but hold on when I had this all approved this is what it was now you're applying new definitions to me we obviously never like that but at the same time a lot of the stuff that comes to us has no real prior definition applied because there hasn't been a regulation so I think it would be fine to start with something where it just says like listen this is what we're calculating and punt it to the to some other board someday where they want to change and they have to decide okay are we going to respect anything that's been previously calculated or not I I don't know but I I see that as a c applies all the time and it's not about what you're adding it's about here is the total building and we are going to do the calculation and now we are going to tell you so it would be easy enough just to make C and put it up at the top so that your branch point of existing structure size is the last thing in the document but that's I think that would make it clear if if you're on board with that um I think leading with that would probably be fine I think that 400 up to whatever anything between 400 and infinity count as two rooms assuming there's no other definition that would create more rooms my thought SC foot broking up into walls and and doors for five rooms it's five rooms thousand square feet with no no barriers it's two

rooms I mean I think with that mindset for that definition I think that probably is reasonable I think 400 is probably big enough that there's probably not going to be a lot of folks who end up with a 500 square foot I don't know I'm guessing I don't know I don't know an answer a 500 foot space it now has to be two rooms when really it's one I'm so that's I that's my only there is no right number because there's always be somebody who has my base either I have 500 squ fet I can work with but now I need to make it 400 so I meet this criteria so I don't go over my septic count when really why can't I just like what difference between 400 and 500 why do I suddenly have to go I can't build it because my septic won't support an extra 100 square feet in this 500 foot space in my basement or attic it will most will most commonly hit that 400 in the basement because somebody will say I want it I want to finish my basement and I'm going to put an office with a door here and a big open space here that's multi-use and we look at it we go that's 1500 square feet total cut the office out it's still a th000 we're going to count that as two so no you can't because that you know that you that that one thing puts you over and and yeah if that rule sticks then we would say you you must finish less of your basement period which is which is fine and I I'm kind of heing from both of you thus far that you're leaning more towards that let's follow the room count and let's try to make a better definition of it like a square footage because that's not something we have had most recently um so chew on that for a little bit and I want to give Gino a chance as well because we haven't heard from you Gino what what are your

thoughts yeah what are your thoughts about this I don't know I don't think I is appropriate to have in a basement bathroom and bedroom unless unless you gu will say yeah we should can we can do that we get a 400 square feet should be considered to room I leave it up to you guys my opinion is the house is being built and everything why putting a a b room in a bedroom in a on on this all the way in the basement doesn't make any sense but if you want it to have it it's up to you now all right um if we're if we're leaning towards the 400 foot definition do we add do we add language Dan kind of got was going in that direction and said he didn't yeah not sure about it do we put uh some sort of language because I agree I I think they use the phrase I think like we have to take a closer look um the more strict the r is the less opportunity we have to potentially take a closer look um because like you've pointed out somebody can follow it just perfectly with their 69 squ foot rooms and try to dodge it and so as a board how can we put some language in that says that that does give us the opportunity to to look more

closely at something or is it that they follow those rules to a te and we're we're out of luck we don't have a say um on the square footage thing I think it's either including language that talks about um functional identification in open floor plan or I I think it would be fine to say something along lines of if there is a space that is greater than x square feet then the board will will review it and it is up to the board at the time to make a determination I know that's fluffy and becomes soft and and you know homeowners can't get a concrete answer but we can't also see every possible scenario Kevin you add your hand yeah what about trigger like if you're if you're looking for triggers I actually like that um like saying if so from a Title Five perspective we're worried about flow into a septic system right that's what we're worried about right so a trigger in my mind would be anything that generates a flow in the basement so a wet bar a new kit a a in-law Sweet Kitchen a bathroom any one of those things would generate flow into that setic system right so what happens is that we're saying hey it was sized for this and then you're also worried about the number of people that are also habitating in that facility right because that individual also generates blow like we don't care if there's 10 10 stackable washer and dryers that generate flow right we there's nothing in the rig that says that right you can have a laundromat in your basement and it would be perfectly fine right and you know there's nothing there but that's I think that's kind of

I think that's kind of the thing that we should look for is things out of the ordinary that generate flow into a septic system so you know what is it what are the the state says what is it two people per bedroom is the norm is that right yeah okay I think that's right so two people per bedroom is the normative so in other words if you're adding a room in the basement you're worried about whether someone is going to cohabitate that room increase the the the vehicle to create a flow into the septic system so I think that's I think that's really where we're at isn't that really where we're after is the capability to generate you know some way of someone living in that area and creating it I think that's the other reason why Kevin um I would actually agree with Kevin lists are bad right I don't like lists because you can always create a a meditation room right or something like that and you oh we met that shouldn't be there because there's you know it could be religious aspects to it right you could have there's a whole bunch of other reasons right so I want to try to keep it simple I want to try to keep it so that way we're not favoring one design of a house over another design of a house so whether you have doors or whatever in the basement I don't care it's a room is it does it does it count to the overall room count it does okay great you can only have these num right I don't know that's kind of where I'm at um yes I I I agree I think it's funny that you can put in 20 bathrooms in your house and have no change to your system because uh you can only have so many bedrooms so you'll never have that many more humans um and I I mentioned it to

Jim and I'm not sure if there will be changes but I with the dramatic increase in working from home if there's a reason to have the system requirements change more than anything that's actually it because is it is it not just about how many bedrooms you have but how many people are living there basically full-time has a bigger impact than a lot of stuff but that's that's for another day for Massachusetts to pun back to us um so in the meantime uh I'm hearing pretty good things about the 400 so let's keep that language in there um Francis please add some kind of mention of the open floor plan and how that requires additional consideration uh I I'm also you know trying to keep in mind that part of these RS is also to make sure that Francis can function most easily in his role and not have to deal with the board for the vast majority of cases because we're just an automatic speed bump in the process and we should only be really reviewing things that that warrant our attention and we'd like things to be defined well enough that that our homeowners and our health department can pretty much function on their own making the the right choice is that that we anticipated as a board so um the basement thing I think is still like let's come back with a draft that's about it's I I hear what Kevin is saying that I I agree I think I think when you start to add Plumbing in the basement things get different but the question I'll still throw out there that we don't have an answer to Is does the area does it have different rules if there isn't Plumbing if there's no Plumbing down in the basement are we going to use the same room count rules that we've talked about which are

defined here uh the bedroom definition and the 400t definition or do those two rules only apply when Plumbing happens that's where I see the fork I agree that if Plumbing's down there you got to really look at things and be like that now we got to start counting these as real rooms because it becomes a very habital space but Dan also made a good point of there are plenty of families that that punt a family member down to the basement because they can have some privacy down there and that can increase the number of people you have living in that space so that could be equally Troublesome so we've kind of heard both sides of it so where does the board feel that we say do we apply the rules the same all the time to the basement or do we apply the rules or or does it become a if Plumbing scenario that's not a yes no question Kevin but go ahead so so I'm I'm I think what I'm going to do is I'm gonna put some language together based off of this word document and just kind of turn it in because I I've I think I've said my piece enough that I need to sit and ruminate with it and try to figure out like here I'm G to say this and these are my thoughts behind this right because we have someone's thoughts and it's awesome for all of that but just like when you go read the Federal Register it's like you know when the when they go to debate something you see all their thoughts that kind of went into that debate around that are recorded in the Federal Register so you can kind of see where they were thinking I need to I want to sit down and just kind of put some thoughts together around that I I think the 400's there I think we're fine with that doesn't you know we might go up to 500 or whatever

you know tune that a little bit no I but I think again we're trying I keep going back to and I love the part the part about making sure that Francis can just operate off of this without having to worry about coming to us for everything right I don't want that right I want to basically get some things down on paper that kind of calculate my ideas and go okay you had this this and this and just kind of go from there so that's my that's my do out I'm gonna put something on paper and go from there awesome thank you for doing that um Dan additional thoughts um I don't think so I mean I think we've made some good progress obviously this is just a discussion it's not public hearing and and there before it's proposed um I think I'm leading on certainly seeing bathrooms and stuff perhaps Warren's closer observation but I don't think necessarily that changes how we should apply whatever rule we come up with okay um if for no other reason then okay so I I can I can add more space by not putting a bathroom down there and is perfectly fine where if I decide to put a bathroom which really does not necessarily have any change in in flow now it's not it's you know what what's I'm leaning towards that is an interesting observational trigger but not necessarily an operational change in what's applicable okay but no I think I think it's a good discussion I think again I'm not sure how to differentiate my open floor open plan

first floor versus my open plan basement I'm having a hard time saying those are different even though in my heart of course they're different my living room and bedroom or you know an office and all that stuff on this first floor is different than my basement but I don't know how to put that in words other than saying a basement and then if I say a basement well then what about an attic can I just have my attic be one big open so I'm just my heart's with it I'm just trying to figure how can I make that my brain go yeah they're different I just don't know how to say that they're different yeah it's it's and and Jim mentioned the one that where it was an additional room but you could only get to it through the master bedroom and he kind of said like you know like functionally can you do you really count that as another room because it you there's only one way to get there and it's never going to become somebody else's bedroom right um and can't say never right any family could find a way to use space however they want um so it's also being reasonable and saying okay well yeah but the vast majority of of people who use this space would probably do this and I think that's also where you have to land to be sensible to say again we're just trying to protect and make things clear so that ideally a uh somebody doesn't buy a house under these expectations that this is how they use the space and someday we look at and go no this is totally unacceptable um so it's that protection and I agree usually a room behind the master bedroom is probably not seen by people as as something that has unlimited usability so it becomes that well then deac account it so our the rules we're kind of thrown out here are pretty short and I think that's a great start I think it'll be fine but how do we then kind of have that well we can take a second look and can

we give ourselves leeway can we give ourselves room to say okay we we won't count that or we won't apply the rules there and and that'll be kind of the later part of this discussion is how many outs do we give ourselves and how concrete is this um I'm gonna stop there uh Kevin did raise his hand again otherwise the followup is that Kevin's go oh he's waving me off so Kevin's gonna work on this and have it back to us in 48 hours and um good he didn't catch that Kevin would we be able to um return to this topic at our next schedule meeting which is actually not until oh it is the 26th of March or is or do you want some more time um I I have a business trip coming up next week so I'm gonna have plenty of time unless Congress doesn't pass resolution um uh I I'll have plenty of time next week to kind of work on okay so let's put it on our uh another discussion then for our 26th of March agenda all right um that took a solid hour um but I think was very valuable time spent and thank you all for for working through that um we don't have a ton on our agenda but the next item is coming to me intern projects 7:10 p.m. agenda item for intern projects yes just I'll make it quick um so now that we're going to have a steady um cycle of interns coming in I think it'd be good to kind of discuss what kind of projects we'd like to look at what things we've wanted to do in the past and we can't dive into um and you know I mean interns figure it's 160 hours typically um where they can focus on a certain topic that we don't have time to really go into so um I think it'd be

good to have a brainstorm sometime in the future and make a list of items that we could start rolling through um anything from environmental to nursing whatever Community Health I would propose that to start we had our own Retreat as a board a while back and came up with a lot of Post-it notes um I think that would probably be a really good starting place um if there's some that pop pop out of there that look good to you and I would also say um careful what you wish for so I think it's fine to ask the board if we have some ideas or if you want to really brainstorm session you'll get lots of ideas but I would also say um please feel free to pitch us five ideas that you think would be a good usage of the intern's time um and allow us to kind of banter about it and maybe help you prioritize one over the other um it's at the start so we're probably on similar footing now but you'll also be much more in tune with the appropriate capabilities of these individuals um to make sure we're asking for something that they can make some reasonable progress and accomplish with so we don't ask them to I mean I think it' be great if someone went through the paper files there and recorded all of the well permits that have ever existed so um we had that information but I don't think I want to actually do that to an intern necessarily and Kevin has a lot of IDE that he would like to but you know what I mean Kevin um the right along that same purpose is we should identify uh private and public Wells uh on um you know on our in our town as well as abandoned Wells that are in our town and they should be GIS located they should be part of the map and they should be searchable and all that stff it te technically it is all identified Kevin because it's all in a piece of

paper somewhere understood but like going out and locating them and saying this is where it is right we should absolutely have that ability that be good field work yeah I've seen intern do it and another the community was in too so I don't think it's too much of a stretch cool and and I already have lined up premium State professors to help with the gis and coding it and all that kind of good stuff too so if they want to do that as part of their class at premium State they can do that too and Francis remind me we have an intern currently working uh we do um and then we have one coming at the beginning of June as well okay so that' be the key thing so if we know we have one coming at the beginning of June when do we want to kind of have the discussion about what they should be working on because that's what I would want to get on the calendar that because if you need time from us to figure it out we need to be doing it earlier if you've got a good idea of where you want to direct them and you just need some info from us that can be a little later to nail this right this second but that's how I would pitch that I'm just setting it early um for the next intern I'm going to focus them on the community health assessment so um but it' just be good to have going into next year a couple things see if they align right okay good I think Wells is a really great start yeah uh is that everything for interns then yeah that's it um just wanted to bring it up so give it some thought and I'll put on another agenda coming the next couple months very well the next item is also 7:10 p.m. it is the decision support tool for infectious diseases here is our current

dashboard um covid-19 the current Omron variant is xcc that is the same one as the when we reviewed this a month ago um it's just gone up in percentage so kind of nothing new to report there our vaccination rate as of March 1st is 30% you can still get your booster for the season um Wastewater numbers remain pretty low kind of it's been like kind of one of one in the 300s one in the 100s but they've alternated which site um and then for our weekly case counts of covid there was a kind of a rise through the end of January then it fell off in February now there's kind of a big hop back up um in March so I'm curious to see where that's going to go right the number is below 10 but it's still good indicator I think that of of what might be going on in the community not everybody's going to go to the physician office and get a test that gets reported but um if we see something kind of going up I think it it makes sense to watch it a little further um the good news is influenza has come from our very high at the last reporting period down to moderate risk so fingers crossed that were kind of starting to come out of that season um similarly RSV has has dropped as well for the region um curiously don't go to the kind of Northern midwest states of the dtas and Montana because that area is seeing a big bump in RSD right now whereas much of the rest of the country is seeing this this dip so um the the respiratory viruses are looking promising right now our vaccination rate for influenza hit 50% half half of our uh residents got their vaccination again looking to next year we need to do some vaccination work I would say um and then in other Hot Topics that aren't on this dashboard uh first would be um Aven flu which has not

had a ton of updates since the last time we talked about uh there's a there's been a case in Ohio of uh a bird that tested positive but other than that um we're still viewed as uh low risk low public health risk um and there has been no person to person spread that the CDC is aware of so continue to keep an eye on your live stock that you may have and there's still reporting um remember Francis posted it on the health department web page for Littleton that there are some resources there so if you for example find dead birds out in nature you can report those and then keep an eye on your own pet birds that you might have or livestock birds that you may have the last point of discussion which also went out today uh I believe thank you Francis correct our update on measles yep okay um so you might have heard that there are some measles cases occurring um there have been a a much larger number of measles this year than there were um in 2024 I believe so far because we're so early so 2024 had 285 total cases Nationwide and as of uh this point we already have 220 2 for 2025 which is concerning since we're at um barely mid-march um so the there have been no cases in Massachusetts as of yet but there have been in New York and Rhode Island so it is in our vicinity so it would not surprise me if we get a case or two reported here in the near future um please get your vaccination if you don't have one um it's not too late to do that for most people and otherwise I'm not sure what else we can tell people about right

now Francis anything to add to that uh no we'll probably make a page to add on to what we sent out today just to keep people informed okay all right that's what I have for infectious disease I believe anything I missed um we've already started planning for Co INF flu clinics for next fall um aome we're going to be looking at the last week in September as a start U most likely starting with a senior Clinic then doing a general clinic okay and and it's it's it's early great so planning those is an important step um and then I think another piece is as I've said previously is what are our other tactics besides just providing clinics to actually get numbers boosted um so at some point see if you can come up with a a road mapap for what that could look like and fellow board members if you have any ideas or hear of anybody that's doing a better job please please please provide that information to Francis as input and ideas because um it's not like we were doing great and have fallen off we've historically not been doing all that well at it and so I think I think there are any opport opportunity is a good opportunity any idea is a good idea until we shoot it down so throw them out there get some information to Francis I think the more he has to kind of think about and brainstorm about anything could help so moving on from that uh 720 administrative matters we have meeting minutes approval the minutes in the packet are from January 22nd

um I was absent but there are three of you who were present so would you like to uh have all three of you had a chance to review the minutes Gino have you had a chance to review the minutes what have you read the minutes I'm looking one a second this one here yeah yes well Gino's reading um I just wanted to point out Megan has these minutes done within one to two days after the meeting um she's doing a really great job and it's made things a lot easier awesome thank you thank you everybody R it it down minutes yes any any feedback or discussion on the minutes otherwise we'll entertain a motion what you say do you have any feedback I don't have any want to make a motion everything okay I'll make a motion that we accept the minutes as presented motion second motion a second roll call vote Dan Kane Dan Kane votes yes Kevin Davis Kevin Davis votes yes G fralone yes and Matt Wason abstains Minister are approved next correspondence before I go does anybody else have any correspondence to discuss

no from Dan Kevin no Gino any correspondence to discuss no thank you all right uh so the correspondence I need to discuss would be our communication from town Administration earlier uh yesterday sorry not today yesterday uh that was sent out that was asking the this board um about our plan for when we exit from the nooba associated Boards of Health on July 1st or June 30th effectively and at the start of then our new fiscal year for Littleton what the plan will be for the Board of Health and the health department in moving forward in cases of Francis wanting to take a day off and a vacation for example or a sick time and whatnot um so this uh email was a bit of a surprise um and it's concerning to me um a few things so this board ideally does not get very involved with operations if at all um we're an elected board that should be focusing on on regulatory needs and Direction and guidance for our department um so to be asked what the plan will be is is concerning because I don't think this board should be making plans like that that's why we have a health director and a health department so the town voted to leave nooba and we as a board heard that and therefore took it upon ourselves to help get moving in the right direction it has taken some years and obviously it has had some bumps but we are working to effectively internalize our health services here in the town of Littleton with our health department so our first step obviously was hiring a health director um we tried

some other tactics initially but that was what finally U made sense and actually worked and um every prospective look that this board has ever produced or presented always with the caveat that this board should not be making the full plan um included additional staff either in year one or year two uh year two year one always reflected the public health nurse and year two always reflected some sort of Health agent to add to the department um we did not need to get a public health nurse in year one because we uh instead went with an overlap of the nooba associated Board of Health Services therefore they were continuing to provide our public health nurse needs during this current year current fiscal year um but everything always kind of had an expectation that the department would have to grow to have people to continue to address the needs the health needs of our community um unfortunately through the budgetary process most recently that position was not approved so Town Administration and the finance committee from what I understand were not supportive of that happening so that frankly was plan a for covering if Francis needs to take a day off or is sick or has to be out of the office um there has been work on a separate Plan B that I do not want to get into right now it's not for discussion right now um but when plan a was suddenly rejected planb came to fruition but that also appears to be dead in the water right now and so I see this email as frankly a a a call out for a plan C um unfortunately with the

budgetary process done as far as I understand there is no funding for us is that accurate Francis okay so to have our town offices come to this board and say what is your plan with no budget is is an empty answer because there is no coverage plan on Earth that you could create that is free and I understand if they had reasons to not fund our health agent sanitarian inspector whichever position you would want to call it um the concern around that was driven primarily by we we could not show we could not show um concrete income numbers for that position which correct we are a brand new Department we've always known that this is a brand new Department we're creating so some some pieces of data just don't exist for us um but the unwillingness of the town to to support that position to help the department grow is now becoming a problem so we have no budget so there's no way to fund a coverage plan for Francis so this is a lot to kind of throw out now but these are the kinds of discussions that this board kind of needs to to have um I I do not want to Res reply to town Administration just as an individual and it is not appropriate to have that kind of conversation outside of one of our one of our meetings so there are a few things we can do um number one happy to hear some discussion now about ideas about what we should do again not necessarily Solutions because I don't think that's what we should focus our energy on unless somebody has a real crackerjack idea um but more about how do we want to

handle the next step so we could um ask for a joint meeting with the select board to try to have some further discussion if if we think that would be make sense um I'm also happy to have a a meeting with Town Administration and probably a representative from the select board as well so that we can try to make sure we're on the same page to discuss this in town offices to try to find a solution if people are okay with that um or or what so tell me what you want me to do as our next step pretty please if you have any questions happy to try to answer them go ahead Dan so this discussion started long before Francis long before we even had a position approved and we had the discussion of stepping away from nooba of this came particularly from Finance but also from the select Board of what if what if he gets sick what if he want to take a day off what if he quits um and I agree our plan always was that we were going to have some level of redundancy within the department um with part I mean truthfully nothing against Francis but a part-time agent who can do Title 5 in food service and a nurse who can do the nurse side of things the department could probably limp along for some length of time without a director in place not optimal but you know what we can get title fies we can do F inspections and we can do commical diseases or food warranted illnesses we could limp until we found a new director at the moment we don't have that that bench um and that's been brought back forward the pushback has consistently been

that I don't want to put words in other boards and committees mouths but they really see the health department should be a a revenue neutral Endeavor I'm not sure why they have that mindset um and I can't speak to that and that might not be the perspective but through even through the the budgetary meeting we had last month that what it what sounded came across is they they really felt that we should be Revenue neutral we should not cost the town anything unrealistic obviously for those of us who are sitting in the chairs that they wouldn't make that request for the police department or the DPW or the fire department it's not realistic to say that we should be a to be Revenue neutral for for a required regulator regulatory requirement agency and enforcement group um we don't have a budget they were very unhappy when we asked that they had you know explored and actually one of the members of either Finance or select board asked the Cemetary commission when the Cemetary Department was a department of one how did they handle it did you have a formal agreement did you what do you do and it's like well want to local commercial contractors would just kind of handle it if that person was away on vacation or ill or something so and I asked kind of follow up going was there a formal agreement how do you H how have you handled this in the past has there been a formal process never got an answer but so I mean it's a valid concern what if absolutely valid concern that they don't really want to fund I don't know what Francis can do with peers and other communities I know you know certainly there are times when they want more than a handshake agreement and I can't blame them I I

would love more than a handshake agreement but that piece of hey I'm on vacation next week if there is a disaster if there's a hoarding call or whatever can act in groten air Shirley wrong side wrong direction Westford gron act in hey can you just cover the emergency call for the next week while I'm in the Bahamas or wherever um it sounds like that is a pretty common practice that kind of handshake agreement between department heads I'm not sure if that would be adequate for what they're asking I think they want something formal inwriting contract kind of piece but unfunded unfunded mandate for the board and the department I I think we can push back I don't think it's going to get anywhere they've made it clear they you know they can't fund they won't fund we are where we are I don't know what Francis can come up with I think if if Francis were to quit I I we would be in a challenging position it would have to be in a pinch trying to make a contract with someone to work off hours who's otherwise qualified can you cover until I think if we can come up with some way of doing a reciprocal agreement with another town or another couple of towns to provide that shared vacation ill whatever coverage would probably be valuable what can we do to make that carrot a little bit more attractive I don't know if you know there's a way of everybody has to do coverage because if you get the hoing or the fire it you know 3: in the morning and you need someone to come out and inspect is this house habitable after whatever the situation is is there a way that you know shared overnight coverage is part of the car

going hey you're covering right now every night I'll do one week in cover bu towns you do a week and you cover B towns something like that that may make it more attractive to do a a zero dollar formal agreement I don't know it add it adds workload but it also potentially adds redundancy for both communities or three or four whatever communities we can get into that mix um I don't know how long it would take to make something like that happen but that's my read historically and certainly from the the meeting the other day which I admit I went for moral support and kind of got thrown it along with Francis on that one um they were they had very strong feelings about the fact that we did not have a formal contract level backup plan so I I I unfortunately think it's going to affect it's potentially will affect longer term planning for the Department if we can't put that fire out for them uh thank you one second kin um for the coverage from another adjacent expert Community for example um I I I know it's been voiced about some concern about liability and would anybody actually be wanting to take that on and I think there are different categories about is this um crisis coverage or day-to-day coverage um for sure day-to-day coverage actually opens a lot more problems because now you have somebody from another Community who doesn't know our regulations and we're asking them to do work that's concerning as well as forbid any sort of housing in court situations come up they don't want

to get involved in that at all because if they're the ones that picked up the phone that day that could actually mean a lot more work than just today um and and I respect that and so it wouldn't surprise me if it actually could be very difficult to find somebody who would be willing to take that on whether it's a handshake agreement or something in paper funded or unfunded uh th there are some of those concerns um I I think if anything maybe it would be um addressing the needs like it's more of that crisis situation but that also won't be popular necessarily with with you other folks in in town Administration or town government if we say honestly Francis is going on vacation so no inspections will be done no permits will be signed because there isn't a backup and that is that is the situation we have put ourselves in um it's a hard it's a hard answer uh hopefully the the answer is it's not a permanent problem uh ideally it's not more than a fiscal year frankly because we have another another budgetary cycle to to come up after that um but those just a couple of thoughts and and Francis can probably speak a little more to it um or may need some more time to kind of research other obvious potential Solutions so I'll stop there for now uh Kevin go ahead um so con Conservation Commission was given a bump to two people uh is Conservation Commission Revenue neutral I think so um there are other departments that are I think our department only has one full-time person FTE for the entire department now and there's plenty of work to be doing in this and different skill sets that need to be filled like skilled nursing um inspections things like that right so you know we need to go off and

start to do these things and and it was always as you have said and I'll pile onto that it was always the director of the health that was going to start determining what skills are needed and for what and where and we never said there was only going to be one person never ever um I think we should go back to the tape and pull our discussions and say you know sorry that was never said or never implied or anything like that and I also think we should point out that you know other departments have multiple people in them so I'm sorry that you don't see the need but we're telling you and our expert Francis is telling you there's a need so go do and that's kind of warm thanks Kevin um Gino any thoughts to share ad no there at this moment I don't okay thank you um so obviously not a situation we want to find ourselves in um what is our desired Next Step go ahead Kevin B to face meeting get what they want get why they want it because the email was a nonos it's like and then had come back to the board and figure stuff out okay is that okay with you you guys Dan um just for Francis um certainly so it has come up historically since we started this years ago and then when Francis came on and then it came up at budget has Francis have you had any more conversations with to administrator

assistant to administrator any of those folks about you what you see as the challenge what your plan is is has there been any administrative to administrative discussions expectations that we can help support or just is there any more you may be able to share because my guess is if they're sending that to us they've already talked to you before they've sent that email to us um we haven't um I've just worked on um plan a and plan B and I can't really think of a plan C at this point um so I'm kind of at a point where I don't know what the next solution would be and there's really only two liable Solutions I can see that would be feasible and be able to be put in place thank you as you mentioned Dan that the question had been raised previously and it the fact that we find ourselves on this day at this time with a with a push of a panic button basically is leaves me sitting here going why why didn't we have it figured out a long time ago and from our perspective we did it was an additional staff person was that was that a perfect solution no but it was one of those that'll that'll do us just fine we'll be able to keep going we'll get the the vanilla stuff taken care of dayto day because that's what most of the stuff is and emergencies are emergencies and we'll all deal with them like we always do um but so I think it was kind of a surprise to get to this part this point of the fiscal year to say oh no that solution is is not going to be your option um and so the rug felt a little pulled out for us so that's where we are um then I will set up a meeting with Administration and our Compadres from the select board as a

start and Kevin Davis as the co-chair I will try to make that you based upon your schedule you said you're gone next week okay then I will not include you so D I'll I'll let you know by Friday if you want me there and if Dan wants to do it Dan can do it too Oh I thought you said you were on a trip next week I am unless the Congress doesn't pass the funding they check ah so you might be on a trip got it okay uh I'll I'll include you on the email for now as I try to schedule um something for that fair and if if you can't make it then I will move down our list to Dan okay thank you for that sorry for the curveball last item on our agenda is just board member updates so anything further that anybody would like to bring up Kevin Davis yes I would like to bring up uh a concern I have um uh CDC or FDA cancelled the meeting uh to establish the uh contents or pick the strains whatever word you want to use for the next year's flu shot I am really concerned about that and hope that we can monitor this and trying to figure out what we want to do like letter to dph or the Governor or something to try to figure this out that's it um would you be willing or Francis be willing to start drafting something just in case so we have it ready to grab sure that's fine yeah okay

thank you Dan King I don't think I have anything new thank you thank you Gino fralone any other updates to throw out some some people asked me if it they had the co and I told them says so far as I know nothing happened right um right you're saying if somebody tested positive and had covid well this they were very concerned about because according to the past with the covid n 19 now there was uh they were saying that the birds the whatever they was getting people sick but I think I didn't hear nothing in this town in some other town that I in conquer and other small small town they had a couple people they had a problem if if they're if they're asking about bird flu H5 bird flu right if that's what they're asking about then no we in Massachusetts we have not had any positive cases oh for animals or humans thank you thank you but the concern is out there primarily for Animals because that's that's most likely trigger first so it's it's keep an eye on your birds and poultry that you might have and then keep an eye out for dead birds in Wildlife okay thank you otherwise the risk to people is very low right now but we do know that there are some areas of the country where it has occurred well we are very lucky then yes we'll keep it there they can call the

office too Gino if they want to talk about it more thank you good answer tell him to call the health director hey Francis any other updates um the IMA has been signed for the nurse for both Acton and Westford so we're looking at Job ad now we should have someone ready and up and going before July 1 awesome if you happen to get a candidate who also knows Title Five that' be great I think that's possible yeah unicorns exist in fly I was going to say Dan are are you self-describing is Dan don't look at me I know nothing about Beyond sitting on the board I've never seen i' have not seen a test hole since I was in Bara On The Board of Health so you brush up those skills I'm sure all right um thank you Francis thank you very much for that that is one thing I wanted to add at the end um great work we got it done public health nurse covered community safe we're good for uh the foreseeable future I hope I did not have any other further updates so with that I will entertain a motion I'll make a motion to adjourn thank you second Motion in a second roll call vote Kevin Davis Kevin says yes G fralone yes thank you Dan Kane Dan Kane votes yes and Matt Wason yes thank you very much everyone apologies for the length of the meeting but uh great

discussion so see you next time as always thank you Dave thank you Megan