Board of Zoning Appeals - Regular Meeting

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the town election and board of zoning appeals meeting. This board is comprised of town citizens, we are appointed by town council, and we serve without pay. We are legal board operating under the comprehensive planning act of the state of South Carolina. And although this meeting may not seem as formal as a hearing in court, all statements must still be true, factual, and not made in a manner to mislead us. Please understand that we make our decisions within the parameters of state law. State law requires that us to grant a variance if and only if we find each of the following four statements are true. Number one, that there are an extraordinary and exceptional conditions pertaining to a particular piece of property in question and because of its size, shape or topography. Number two, these conditions do not generally apply to other property in the vicinity. Number three, because of these conditions, the application of the ordinance to a particular piece of property would effectively prohibit or unreasonably unreasonably restrict the utilization of the property. Number four, the authorization of the variance will not be a substantial detriment to adjacent property or the public good, and the character of the district will not be harmed by granting the variance. Moreover, state law prohibits us from granting variance simply because the property could be used more prop profitably if the variance were granted. We are not concerned with the use of the property. Use of the property is determined by others. We ask you please combine your remarks to the issue at hand. Should we make a decision that you believe is incorrect, you may appeal your decision to the circuit court within a certain time limits within certain time limits provided by state law. In cases that such appeal is made, it is important that the circuit court know who testified at this meeting. Please sign in on the sign-in sheet and identify yourself before speaking. Thank you. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. December the 5th, staff, what have we

got on our first item, please?

Um, variance number 2025-10 um is an appeal of staff's interpretation of section 1590709 product signs. All American LLC has submitted an appeal of staff's interpretation of section 1590709 of the town sign ordinance regarding the use of product signs. That went on. Um the applicant submitted a signed permanent application on behalf of Palmetto Cards and Collectibles to install a wall wall sign displaying the playing card brand names as a product sign. Palmetto Cards and Collectibles has already received approvals for a commercial center wall sign and a tenant panel in the commercial center monument sign. These two sign types constitute the full sign aotment permitted for tenants within a commercial center under the town sign ordinance. Staff's interpretation of section 1590709 allows is that um that section allows product signs as a business sign provided they do not exceed 16 square feet. A product sign is defined as a sign directing attention to products sold, offered or dispensed on the premise. Staff denied the submittal because the proposed TOPS wall sign advertises a brand rather than the type of product being sold. Under long-standing interpretation, a product sign must identify the product itself, for example, sports cards or playing cards, not the manufacturer supplier. Displaying a supplier's name as a wall sign is inconsistent with the purpose of product signs and can also be construed as an off- premise sign as the supplier is not located on site which would conflict with the section 1590801 prohibiting off-remise advertising. um in your statement that the two signs in the second paragraph two signs constitute a full sign aotment permitted permitted for tenants within a commercial center under the town sign ordinance. Am I to interpret or are we to interpret that that

top sign not counted that sign that's currently that was in the presented in the package and the monument is the total square footage allotment for that business. Correct. So, the sign ordinance allows a tenant within a commercial center to have one wall sign that does not exceed 15% of the first story of the wall area that it is attached to for that tenant space. Um, so they do have a wall sign that is in compliance with that size aotment and it also the signal ordinance also allows them to have a tenant panel inside the existing commercial center monument sign. Okay. So, which they they obtained a permit for.

And so, just to be clear, the current wall sign or the one that's shown is to its maximum factoring that 15% the the the business name sign is using that total square footage of that 15%. I'm not 100%. I would have to pull the file to see if it's maxing out that allotment, but it is within it's within that requirement. It does not exceed it meets the ordinance. Okay. Any other questions for staff at this point, gentlemen? No. No. Okay. We'd like to hear from the applicant. If you would step up and state your name for the record, please. Yeah. Uh, gentlemen, thank you for meeting with me. My name is

Right up. Right up here. You get to stand at the fancy little podium thing.

Fancy little podium. Got it. All right, gentlemen. Thank you for meeting with me. Um, my name is Aaron Cordera and I own Palmetto Cards and Collectibles. We've been in business, I guess, going on our fourth year. We were originally on Main Street here in Lexington. And in July, we uh purchased 607 Columbia Avenue and we moved our business in October from Main Street over to Columbia Avenue. And in the process of doing that, you know, you learn a lot of things about uh town ordinances and just doing business. You know, they don't give you a uh uh small business owner for dummies book, I guess, is what I would say to you. And in the doing this, we wanted uh when bought the building, moved our business over there. And the building construction has two tenants. You have Caldwell Banker and you have Palmetto Cards. But the building layout is actually for three tenants. The section that we are in would be for two tenants. There are two entrances. The building was constructed with two sign spots on the outside of the building. So, I wanted to lay that out there. I've also got some notes. If I can give each of you a copy of this for you to look at, I'd be happy to hand them to them or

Yeah, that's that's fine. Yep. And we'll just need one copy for the record. and we can share if you don't have enough. Well, I brought four so I can give them three and you can get one back. They can give me one afterwards. We just have to have it for the record. Yep. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks.

But basically, um, what I've given you there, just some notes on the building. Again, it talks about the building having three tenants. Um, like I was saying, there really there's only two tenants in the building, us and Cwell Banker. And the second sign holder is empty. Um, we wanted to put a top sign up there. Um, and we've had conversations about interpretation of product versus brand. I view TOPS as a product and I can see why some would say it's a brand. Coca-Cola is a product. I brought some examples to show you guys here. [snorts] I have products that we sell that are TOPS branded. So, we can debate all day whether this is a brand or a product. I believe when you can physically buy it, it's a product. That's my interpretation of it. the consumers come in and they see this product and they reference it as Topps series 1 basketball. Okay. Um, so we're we can have that debate whether it's brand or product. I feel like I'm selling Topps products. I provided you a copy of an email. Topps I should say Fanatics who owns Topps is the parent company. They have approved our bit our right to use that because we're one of the bigger dealers in the southeast. Um so for me I feel like it's a product. If you guys deem that it is a brand and not a product then I would ask you you know for us to look at an exception to then do you know do something different because from my standpoint I have to I would have to have some unextraordinary measures. I'd have to have the building redesigned configured to have one sign centrally located. If I have the way and if you look at the

picture right there, you'll see the two like the two framed parts that are on there, that will allow us to put two signs up there and utilize it the way it was intended to be used. I think it will look better for the town. Uh when you drive by there, it will present better. Um it does not I think you mentioned four things earlier. Um, I believe we answer those four questions based off of uh the things that you said cuz we don't impact anyone else. Um, it's it would be to me it would be unreasonable to have to go hire a commercial person just to have a sign put up or jump through some hoops like leasing out a space in the building to myself under some type of Topps branded name to you to use it. Um, so I would ask you guys to take all that into consideration.

Questions for the applicant? No, I'll have it here in a second. Jessica, just for clarification, my understanding, are we typically we're discussing a variance? Are we discussing a variance tonight? Are we discussing whether or not we agree with what the town staff has already decided or is it a hybrid?

It's it's almost a hybrid, I would say. Um I had this discussion with the applicant before we went forward with with the application of whether we were appealing my definition uh or interpretation of the definition of a product sign. Um and also um whether or whether he was asking for um an additional wall sign um which is why I stated in there that it could be construed as an off-remise sign. I it it it's a complex issue. So the the request that I was told was that it was an appeal of the um interpretation of the ordinance.

Okay. But I believe if and correct me if I'm wrong. I think he is asking that if if you agree with my interpretation of the ordinance, he is asking for a variance. That's correct. The way that was kind of the way it was put additional wall sign. I could I believe that that's the the ask tonight. Okay. Sir, did you want to speak or I'd like to, sir? Uh, sorry. French Oscar, all American Sign. I'm the applicant. I was You need to step up here and if you're gonna speak and identify yourself, please. Okay. Sorry. French Oscar All American Sign.

Um, yeah. So, uh, just to answer some questions just to get some, um, yeah, some answers to the questions. So square footage wise, um the uh sign that's up there now is around 23 square foot. Okay. Uh the linear footage on this building is 46 square. The additional sign that we're asking for is 10 square. So a total of 37.33 square, which is under the 15%. Okay. Where do you both signs? Could you come up here, please? Yeah. on [clears throat] the drawing that you provided me the the maximum square footage that you're talking about. That's what I thought. Okay. That's not how you factor it.

No, no, no. It's it's Yeah, it's one story, but I [clears throat] just uh you know, I just put But it's it's incorrect. 46. I measured because No, but when if we had a topograph No, if we had what's the view I want the an aerial view. Yes. This is not Yeah. This is not one. These are raised panels. Mhm. So that is a panel. That is a panel. So the square footage is based on that. Yeah. So I was impressed is based on the the building frontage. I will it's not the frontage. It's the wall area, but that is not a separate wall area. If you actually go out there, it is it is all the way. Yes, it is flat.

I stand corrected. It does have architectural roof changes, but it is not a separate wall area. Okay, that's good. But that is a good point. Um, yes, it is based off of wall area, but and it doesn't visually it presents it presents as two separate and I know we've dealt with that situation before. It is all flat. All right. So, um, anything else, sir? Yeah. The only other thing is I I do think he had some photos of other businesses in the area that also have brands up on their on the outside.

Okay. And I will go ahead and address that. Now, the difference in this board and a lot of others, it's a case-byase basis. We don't necessarily set precedent. We work within, as I state at the beginning, we work within the ordinances that are here. Because another business has it doesn't mean you can have it, too, per se. Case in point, I know I know there's a business in town that has a brand name on it. Based on my knowledge, that's been there I've been here 29 years in this town and it's been there for over 20. I don't know if that business has I wasn't on this board then. I don't know if that business had a variance, if the law if the ordinance were different. Um, we have things in front of us right now or in front of council on some vague places that are in other parts of the ordinance that town council has got to address because we can't clearly rule on someone because of those things. And the reason that was brought is because someone made a complaint that that [snorts] business has this and that's what brought it to the forefront. I appreciate your perspective. Um but we don't what other businesses do do not that doesn't impact us. So anything else we going to discuss?

Yeah, I'm ready to discuss. All right. We're going to have a discussion. You're here part of it. We don't leave. So, you're welcome to sit down or stand or whatever you choose to do. And while while they discuss, can we um get y'all to sign in just for records? All right. So, first off, we need to make a decision on they may they may where we kind of stand with the town and their interpretation of it. Is tops a brand or is it a product? That's kind of what we Yeah, that first thing is is we've got to vote on whether we agree with the ordinance. Then we go to the variance, right?

Yes. Well, when you say the ordinance, we my understanding and what I just got from Jessica is we have to first decide, case in point, let's say we disagree with what staff has said, right? Then we're going to talk about variance, right? An additional sign, an additional sign or a change of signs or whatever, however that works. But the first discussion we have to have is whether or not we support the town's interpretation. Yes. Of product versus Exactly. versus brand. Brand. Yeah. And I say we do. Yeah. So what are y'all's thoughts? I mean TOPS is a brand. Yeah.

I appreciate you know um what Mr. Darren has said that his referring to it as the product but it's it's the brand of the product [clears throat] it is. Yeah. To tops basketball cards, Tops baseball cards. So it's a brand of trading card. Y and as far as a possibility I mean Brian you you feel Oh yeah. Yeah. Um I feel the same way. It's definitely a brand of the whatever card that is because they're I mean I haven't collected baseball cards since the late 80s and 90s but I can I know that there are different and now it's a huge business. I understand that as well. Your thoughts [sighs] brand versus product

is brand. Okay. So from that standpoint I think we're in agreement that Well, I can't say that. I guess we we have make a motion and have a vote. because the only other way that I see this working out is if he incorporates that into the single sign, right? But he's already said he don't want to do that because he'd have to reconfigure source all sorts of and it is an unfortunate situation that they're are separate entities if you will look at the two things without having to reconfigure the front.

So, do I have a motion, gentlemen? [cough and clears throat] Yeah. Uh, I'll make a motion to uphold staff's interpretation of TOPS as a brand and not meeting the definition of a product sign. Do I have a second? A second. Can we get a roll call vote, please? Ron Fischer, yes to the motion. Troy, yes to the motion. Justin Brown, yes to the motion. Brian, yes to the motion. Motion. So, initially we have agreed with staff that Topps is a brand, not a product.

Sure. I appreciate that part of it. Now I guess the second part of this is now to talk about if there's a variance. Correct. Yes. Since he is asking for that. Okay. So we will now discuss that part. And the tough part that I see Aaron here is the square footage. Well, if we're if did you see this this one? So, do you agree with their calculations of of what the sign can be? Cuz what is it used? 10 ft for the max height, right? Yeah. And so, it's Yeah, I did the math. It's wellin.

It's well within. It's well within. We didn't Yeah. Certainly didn't try to max them out or anything. Yeah. We wanted him to look right from the curb. Mhm. Yeah. Good. Yeah. 69 square feet would be what they'd be allowed. Yeah. And I believe you said there were four criteria that you mentioned. Yes, sir. Started that. So, I mean, I'm happy to talk through those one those four because again to me I feel like extraordinary

on that case. Um [sighs] your first one I don't you talk about the first one is extraordinary and except exceptional conditions on a particular piece of property. This is not extraordinary or exceptional. This is something we see quite often. I mean, from the standpoint that it is, I understand that it is set up as a three tenant structure and you've chosen to rent two of the three structures. that doesn't change the topography of the sign or the the front of the building, you know, and I understand there's a cost associated with that, but short of splitting it between and having it across two sections of it, I I don't think I personally don't believe that it's extraordinary. And as far as owner, you you mentioned owner's rights, I don't have a place that we can we don't discuss whose rights it is this or that. We just look at the ordinance. And so from the ordinance standpoint, I don't know how and it's not necessarily us to figure out how to make this work. We can make suggestions of things that would that we would approve, but I don't really know how to address. I mean, it it again, it's my opinion, but I feel that it would be extraordinary to have to hire contractors and do some of those things just to make it look aesthetically appealing for the town and anyone that's driving by versus the addition of adding a a second sign. Um, because I would have to hire contractors. I'd have to close things down. I mean, I even talked to Jessica about I actually have a room inside the building that I could technically start another LLC and call it buying tops baseball cards

and lease it back to myself and put a sign up and work within like feels like a lot of hoops to jump through to try to make that happen. So, to me that is extraordinary measures um to check that box. I I don't I don't I see what you're saying, but again, I think this is beyond I don't think you meet the criteria based on what we've what we define as Can you tell me the criteria again? I'd like to hear it one more time.

Extraordinary and exceptional has to do more with the standpoint of the fact that it's something that's not seen that's that's caused an a situation where you cannot there's no way to do it other than that. And the reality of what I see here is I see your business is is named on a on a monument on the front of the bill on the front of the road and you have a sign that is appropriate to the size of the front of the open structure but it's one facility today it is and it's one large facility and in 10 years it may not be in 10 years I may sell that building or I may lease that space or I may may deem that I don't need the second side or my business may change. You know, we could have something and then I have to lease out the other half of it. If I do, I'm going to need that other sign that's up there. So, be to me, it would be extraordinary to have to change it and then change it back. Again,

to be to be clear, if the building is ever altered to add a separated tenant space, like if if it turns into A B C, and they are separate tenant spaces, um then the commercial center wall sign would allow for that tenant space to have a wall sign. The issue here is that this they're they're allowed one wall sign per tenant space and so they they have it it's been altered to where B and C is one tenant space. Right.

Right. So it's only two tenant spaces in there. Um so if the building is ever altered um to create an additional tenant space then they would have wall signage aotment for that tenant space. One wall sign for that tenant space. Yeah. And a space on the monument sign. Yes. Right. So, the way I'm understanding that is I could You're saying I could change it, center the sign, have a bigger sign, one bigger sign, then down the road I would have to split them back up essentially if that's what happen. Yeah. If you ever separated into two tent spaces. Yeah. Yes.

And we and we've had building owners do that in the past that own shopping centers. Um because we have seen um that since as time has changed that um a lot of businesses that have office spaces don't need as much office space as they've had previously and so they've been chopping tenant spaces. So we have encountered that a lot more. Um but it's based so for instance because you are in two tenant spaces you have a larger wall area to work with. So, you're allowed technically a larger sign because of that, but you're only allowed one of them cuz the the allotment is one sign based off of the wall area for your tenant space.

Yeah. And if it's flush Yeah. It's 69 square feet would be what they'd be allowed. Correct. Right. Because are both of them entrances? You can come. You have both doors unlocked. No. Today I've got I'm funneling everyone through the right hand side and like I said there is literally an office behind the other one. So we've got it. You can't go in that door. Gotcha.

And that's what I was where I was going with when we were talking about creative ways to do it. I It's a office area. Like it seems extraordinary to go create a another business and lease it back just to be able to put a sign up there. But it could be I mean I'm I'm asking you the question if it's separate spaces it's got to physically be divided the business Yes. And the business has to be located there. Okay. I I I mean gentlemen feel free. Can I ask a question just

if you come to the mic? If you come to the mic please. Sorry. So, um I got to swing back around. So, so uh last thing we're talking about, we're still under the uh extraordinary circumstances. Is this where we're Yeah. Well, cooking. There's got to be a lot of extraordinary stuff going on here. Okay. Because, you know, like I said, I know and I understand what you just said about uh well, it doesn't really matter what other businesses do. It's it's it's case by case by case. But there's got to be a lot of extraordinary going on. I took a drive down today. I took pictures every I can name off 25 30 businesses. All of them have Tucson. Russia's does, McDonald's does.

Those are freestanding businesses that have a different a lotment because they are a freestanding business, right? Yes. And that's based off of road frontage. So those businesses are allowed two signs per road frontage. So it's a different aotment. Um now now his his now his building uh he's at the end and now he's at the end unit. Okay. Uh so uh there is one one one side of his building does face um the main street that he's on and and the other now it might there might be a distance parking lot between him and you know the other road but you see his building from the from the side road.

It's not a road that that's not two thorough affairs. We had the same question come up um with other businesses where a driveway is not a road. Yeah, the ordinance is very clear on the two sides of the building on a road. It has to be on a road, not a driveway. I ask. Yeah, that's fine. That's We're here. I mean, so much of this is is understanding, and I appreciate the fact that you at least ask the question because I'd rather you ask the question than leave here and say, "Well, I don't understand."

Yeah. I I don't see where this meets criteria. I can't I can't answer these questions. No. Yeah. I don't think we effective Nothing effectively prohibits or unreasonably restricts the utilization of the property either. Yep. And we've got to answer all four questions. Mhm. And as far as not applying to other areas, Jessica just talked about the fact that there are several businesses that have the same situation

that they've altered their business front or whatever they needed to do to get the sign they wanted. So, Yep. Yeah. Could you tell me what would be extraordinary? I mean, because I'd like to understand. So, state law is referring to like you have a topography issue or um if the property um it applies a lot with with different variances for setbacks and buffers and things of that nature when they're asking for relief in that respect that the property is maybe shaped funny um or or something like that would qualify

because not everything we do is signs. understand that when we talk about extraordinary, it could be because I'm trying to think back um like that the gas station they they're tearing down and going to rebuild the corner right in front of Publix. It's it's an odd shaped piece of property and because of that the setbacks were unreasonable because you left with just a tiny bit of property you could actually or we had um the flag lot there was a gentleman that asked for a sign. Oh, that's right. a setback reduction on the sign um setback because of the flag lot. It didn't allow enough room.

Um but it was outside of a sight triangle and so that was the only way they would be able to have a monument sign. So that because it was shaped a certain way, that was an extraordinary circumstance. And if a variance was not granted, then he would have not been able to have a monument sign on the road or any identification on the road because his property sat back behind it. It was a flag lot that went behind another property like from a sign perspective, too. It was before I was on the board, but I've heard it discussed in here and I think it was before your time, Jessica, but I think it's one that's kind of well known is that area like where Five Guys and the Sauceras because of the topography of the lot

it and how the business because it drops down almost a full story that they were given the ability to put a sign on the rear of the building by another it wasn't I wasn't sitting on none of us were sitting on the board then. Those were extraordinary circumstances because of the topography and grade of that site. Okay. So, we were also discussing and and another question that came up. So, um now you you said that one sign one one one wall sign would have to be his name. He's got he's got a wall sign right now. Now, what now? You're saying but but you're saying a sign that says playing cards. Yeah. Work on the wall. trading cards, sports cards. Yeah.

But not I want to make clear though, but not on the second. This is I want to make sure that we're not confusing. It could be located there because it's part of his tenant space, but it would have to meet the 16 square foot requirement and it would have to be a product. Trading cards, playing cards, those are products,

right? So, so it's I'm trying to So, I'm I'm So, I'm the sign guy. I contract. So I I I construct these signs and make the signs and build the signs, right? So the same materials, the same components, the same lighting, the same faces, the same everything goes in. So really what it comes down to is the word playing cards in in comparison to the word tops. Really? So I can I can brand versus product.

Yeah. I can literally make the exact same sign. And so instead of putting vinyl stickers on it that says tops, I could just put a vinyl sticker that says playing cards and then the conversations that's it, right? I mean from what I understand, right? Correct. It could say, you know, national brands, but it seems to me because I see this sign a lot of places people put up Pokemon, right? Pokemon's a brand. Yes. Again, it's not in front of us. Sure. Yeah. We're we if you're referring to a someone that came into your previous location that was put up without a permit and we're currently in a code enforcement situation with that. So I I travel a lot so I was going to say that's something that

you're referring to one there. There is a code enforcement issue ongoing right now with that particular location. I just want to get that clarification again. That's why I want to have the conversation about product brand because I look at Coca-Cola and it's I worked for Coca-Cola. It's a brand. Do you know here I'll give you a little fact. Do you know you can't make a a licensed piece of material that Coca-Cola or any part of it cut off like on a shirt it has to say it completely. I believe that because it's a brand and they protect that brand. And have you seen the recent commercials by Morgan Law Firm that there's a

audio disclaimer at the B? Because Disney the uh Steamboat Willie Oh yeah. has been released and in the public domain but they still protect the protect they say this has not been endorsed by Disney blah blah blah blah. That's why I asked Fanatics like, "Hey, is this a Well, and I appreciate you asking them and I understand Fanatics, but under Fanatics, they have different brands that they represent." Yeah. And And I I I appreciate the the uh opinion on that, but I you buy these. So, I mean, to me, they're products. So, another another question, a quick question I had. Um, is there

Hold on one second. But by your logic, if that's the case, then there's no need for TOPS on the outside of the building because it's just a product. But you're putting the name TOPS on your building because TOPS is a under your is a desirable product because of its brand. Correct. She told me it had to be a product that went on the wall. I know. And I saw Pops products. Okay. But you Pops also makes things outside of cards. Y they make carrying cases. They make all sorts of things that we sell. It's a brand in my opinion. I I think it's right down [clears throat] you they do. I I agree. We could we could be here till that tree gets unplugged, but

I think Nike is a brand, but people call, you know, they want to go get their Nikes. Coca-Cola is a brand. So, my other question was my last and final question is I'm trying Don't ever say last and final. You might think of something else.

Last and final. I don't want to make it longwinded. I'm just trying to understand uh you know like for instance I can understand you know dog leash laws. I can understand you know simple speed laws. I can understand that there's there's a there's a driving purpose you know we're talking public safety and we're talking you know and I get the u you know all the other all all the other laws. What I'm trying to understand is because in my mind it comes down to verbiage. Now in my and you know what I'm saying up here you know you're saying that okay I can I can throw up a sign. And I can make a sign for him that says playing cards, right? But it can't say cops. Okay. I'm going to I'm going to I need just to kind of understand the reasoning

understand again what I stated at the beginning of the meeting and I stated a few moments ago and I may not say it as eloquently. I mean, who knows? Maybe Facebook's going to beat me up after this when they re when they watch the video. We have to work with what's put in front of us. I don't totally disagree with you that there could probably be it could probably be worded better, but again that's not for us and that is definitely not a reason for a variance because that's there. Now the great thing about it is there is town council and there is staff and they're and the town council is very approachable.

Yes. to say, you know what, I don't think this ordinance is clear. And that I support. Like I stated earlier, we're now what, 6 months? Almost almost a year almost a year into something on a different sign situation. Yeah. [snorts] that we could not the person that came in front of us it got tabled and they it moved forward from that standpoint. So yes, I'm not telling you what to do, but I'm telling you that there's an avenue for that. But again, we are not a board that sets ordinance. We are not a board that puts those in place.

Um and and I'll point out too that uh town council is aware that our ordinance needs to be reviewed. Um, we actually they just signed a contract with a third-party consultant to do a comprehensive review of our sign ordinance and that will be kicking off at the beginning of the year to look at it in its entirety and I will definitely make this a note to review. Jessica, can I ask you a question? Yes. for M for Aaron. Is it possible that this request for variance the issue right now? Can he choose to table this and and put his single son or

I I would hesitate on tableabling or remanding because you've already made a motion and and a decision on the interpretation. But there is going to be part of that review process stakeholder meetings where we will invite business owners, community members, um professionals in the sign industry to come and engage with us as we walk through this and to voice their opinions whether it be about the definition of a product sign or any other issue within our sign ordinance that they may have seen. We encourage them to come and speak with us. um so that we can look at that and bring that to because planning commission has to review that ordinance and make a recommendation to town council and then town council will also review any recommended changes. Um and they will have the final votes on that. Um so I recommend them to sign up on our website to get alerts about those meetings. We will also post on social media about that as well. um so that we can get that engagement and and make sure that they're part of that discussion. Um so we can hear their point of view and maybe make a positive change that benefits both the business community and the standards that the town wants to uphold as far as signage.

So just because [clears throat] of this situation for clarification, we upheld your interpretation of it. Correct. And I'm sorry, your first name again. Okay. Brent. Brent. And what Brent's talking about about that other space, if they want to revisit some other verbiage that's not a brand there, that's still that's a product. Yeah, that's a product. They can bring that back to you. They can. Yes. And figure that out. Yes. Yeah.

I think we just to clarify he did request a variance for an additional sign. So I think I think we don't have a action on that. So, we need to clean that up and make sure there's an action. Um, or or he could withdraw that request because I mean he I'm confused about that part only because he can have a second sign. He cannot he can have a product sign. Okay. But he's asking for a second wall sign to allow him to put tops on his business. Okay. I misunderstood. I thought that by upholding Yeah. What? Okay. So, y'all are upholding my definition. Yeah, that would be voted on that. Yeah. Okay.

So, as far as a second sign, he has the rights for a second sign. It just can't be sign product. It has to be a product sign, not a brand. Correct. So, bags, uh, grocery tires, donuts, coffee. I could literally put a picture of Mickey Manel up there if I wanted to, I guess. As long as it fits within the sign criteria. It It says it desri It says it describes um a product being sold. So I don't think a picture of Mickey M 52 tops Mickey Man baseball. So I don't think that that would I mean and correct me if your interpretation is wrong or you feel that that I don't think that meets the definition of a product sign.

I sell it. That's definitely a product. If I were to let's say he's right. He's got a good point. Not if it but see then we're back. you're the the if we're gonna go here, we're gonna play. So, if you go there with a if you're going to put a photograph of Mickey Manel up, I that's something the staff's going to But if it's going to be a Mickey Man, a duplication of a Mickey Manel playing card, I mean, of a trading card, then we're kind of going back into that same scenario that it says Tops and it it's a brand. I sell cards. I mean, I sell And I see it when I travel. I see those all over. Again, and I mean no disrespect. I

understand that there's a there's a there is a place that the town of Lexington has lines around and that's all that we have control of. You know, we had people come in here before. I mean, you travel a lot. You driven down Decker Boulevard. You've driven down Two Notch Road. There are places that don't put the time and effort is the way that this the planning commission, the council, and the town does to try to to make this not look like some areas of town where it just anything goes. Yeah, I thought good point. Um, and I'm sorry, can is it all right if I address her directly? Perfectly okay with me.

So, I mean, if we were, you know, he's got a good point. If we were to put, let's say, a Mickey Man card side with with the words playing card or trading card, you know, if it has the word trading card with a picture on the side, is that is that covered or not?

I think that that's a discussion outside of the request of this board. Um, they've made their determination. I do not we have I believe they agree with my interpretation that it would have to say playing cards um and meet that description. If you would like to incorporate a picture of a playing card in your logo for your tenant space wall sign, I think that would be appropriate because that's part of your one wall sign like Palmetto cards and then have a playing card with that. I feel like that would be appropriate. Um, as I stated earlier, my interpretation of the ordinance and the definition of a product sign is playing cards, grocery. You are listing the the product that you are selling there, not a picture of the product because that gets tricky as well. So, um, unless they disagree with that interpretation.

Well, we've already said that we did not. Yeah. Right. And so outside of that, trying to get creative on how we can display things. I think that's a conversation outside of the board.

And I understand, Erin, I understand this is not going the way you wanted it to go. I get that. But I would say to you from the standpoint of you can I've been working volunteering for the town in different boards for almost 15 years. I've only been on this board for I think five or six. they'll work with you, but we have to work with what we've got. And from that standpoint, to be very candid, I feel like your answer on the Mickey Manel card that was presented is kind of like a snubbing of the nose, like, okay, fine. If we can't do this, we're going to do something else. And I don't think that's what you I don't I don't

mean for that to come off that way. if it did. Okay. Because I I kind of feel like it's borderline like, "Well, fine. We'll find something." Well, no. I mean, I again, it goes back to the conversation I had about like creating an LLC and being told that's okay. That just feels like a loophole or jumping through some hoops. It's But it's And you're not totally wrong about it, but again, look at it from the structure of the fact that it was this particular thing is three spaces. You chose to make it two by taking the wall out. Taking the wall out.

Well, you you chose to rent it and not tell I mean because the other option of that is to tell the the owner cuz you're not the owner. You own the building. Yes, sir. So, you chose to use that as one tenant space. I mean, that's beyond any of us. That was a choice that you made as a business.

Yeah. No, I mean we we it's one space and we're trying to utilize the two signs because we're trying to make it look right without jumping through a bunch of hoops to center it because if you look at pictures there, it'll cosmetically we'll have to do something different to center a sign or make it bigger and other things. So to me that just seemed seemed extraordinary. Again, definitions and perspective. Sure. All right. Anything else? Nothing remain. I'm sorry that it didn't go your way. Um I hope that you can work this out and figure out how to best use that other space.

Sure. Thank you, gentlemen. No, we don't because we've already accepted that. There's not a second sign. No. Jessica, anything? Oh, wait. Approval of the minutes from last meeting. Last meeting we had what in September the 4th. September. Can I have a motion for approval of minutes? Make a motion to approve the minutes as written. Second. Second. All in favor say I. I. I. It's unanimous. Do any business that we need to be aware of upcoming. We do not have um any applications or an agenda for January. Um so so we are good. I will reach out if we have anything else.

Okay. Um, and I'm I'm do my little speech like I always do. Thank you. If you happen to be watching on YouTube, thank you very much. We appreciate you tuning in tonight. Um, tonight was another good example of the fact that we we are a a town and we're working through things, but the way you do it is here in person and not through posts on social media. So, if you want to be involved in town, please come down, meet the staff, meet counsel, meet us, and get involved. And merry Christmas, happy holidays. Merry Christmas. Make a motion to adjurnn. Second. There he goes. Let the new guys. All in favor? I I Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you.