City Council - Regular Meeting

Welcome. This is a little odd for oh, excuse me. Quiet. Right? Welcome to our work session today on 01/06/2026. My name is Mayor Paul Bins and I'll be leading our meeting today and of course, we have a full council today. Councilwoman Newell, Councilman Harrison, Councilwoman Freeman, Councilwoman Stullings, and Council Councilwoman Don't Tell Me.

Should I be attended?

No, you shouldn't. Emily Lockhart. So, welcome. Also, welcome all staff who's here today. We welcome all of you, and we're glad you're here today. I have asked Rachel Freeman if she would offer an invocation. Our

dear Father in heaven, we're thankful for the opportunity we have to be here today and to discuss the affairs of the city of Lehi. We're thankful for the people of Lehi and for their faith in us. And we have great faith in them, and we have even greater faith in thee. We ask thee please to help us and be with us in the decisions that we're making here and a way that we will be light and guided as to what is best to do. And we're thankful for all the great workers here in Lehi that put forth our best effort to facilitate all of the things here in Lehi City. We ask you to be with them and their families. And we say these things in name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Thank you. Okay. So, we'll open up our first item of business is to select a Mayor Pro Tem and so council will open that up. I I believe probably the easiest way to do this. I'm sure you've all been thinking about this but we'll open it up for some nominations. So, I'll just take some nominations. We can discuss those as we as we go and then we'll take a vote or wrap but I'll open that up to you.

Mister mayor, I'd like to nominate Michelle Stallings.

I'll second that.

So, we have two two in or any any talk talk about that those two motions? Thoughts?

I I support that. I think that she seems to know the code very well. And in the previous council meetings, meetings, I've I've noticed noticed that that the other council deferred a lot to her to her knowledge of the code and I I think that's a good choice.

Okay. So, let's take a vote. Heather?

Yes.

James? Yes. Rachel?

Yes.

Michelle?

Yes.

Emily?

Yes.

Okay. Congratulations. Councilwoman Stallings. I don't know what you do yet but I'll tell you. As I learned too.

Item number three on our list is the discussion of the twenty twenty six City Council Meeting Schedule and Agendas. I believe everyone has received a copy of that. We'll open it up for some discussion. I think there's some healthy discussion here to have as we we put forth. We won't vote on it today but we can put some information together so that we can prepare for next week for city council meeting. I'll that up.

Mister mayor, if I if I could, I think for for this new proposal, it's a little bit different this time. What it does is it opens up several more opportunities about nine, I think, throughout the year to have work sessions. I think with a new council we could use several new work sessions throughout the year. But the concept is to have the second and the fourth weeks of each month. Tuesday being our regular city council meeting and then during the day on Thursdays doing the work sessions with staff.

I like that idea. Sorry can I say can I speak? Because of Oatma, we you know, only two of us can speak talk to each other at a time, and I'd love to hear what all the council has to say, especially, like, I just feel like it's important for us to build consensus and to really understand and dig into some of these issues. You know, I loved how watching the previous council work with the Planning Commission at work session there with the Downtown Revitalization Act, and I just feels like it really really increases our productivity and helps us all to have be on the same page. So I'd like to have more work sessions as well.

Mr. Mayor, if I may, I am in full support of getting together. Like I also agree I think that'd be really helpful. My main concern is as a former Planning Commissioner, Planning Commission meets on Thursdays and it's common or often a planning commissioner will come in on a Thursday and ask staff questions planning commissioners are limited to who they can talk to they only allowed to talk to staff. They're actually not even allowed to talk to each other.

So I'm concerned that if we put it on a Thursday, number one, it'll overwhelm the planning department because they'll feel the need to come to our work sessions and talk to us about items. They'll also feel the need to be preparing for Planning Commission and helping Planning Commissioners. And then I worry that the Planning Commissioners won't be able to get their questions addressed. But again, I fully support like the concept of us getting together more often. I just want to throw out that Thursdays are typically reserved for Planning Commission.

Thank you. Thursday after reviewing last night also there's quite a few meetings that I attend on a Thursday evening too so we'll take that into effect. Councilwoman Stallings, any on that?

One thing I noticed about the Planning Commission I'm actually kind of envious of is they get their agendas well in advance. So, I think if they're, you know, needing to talk to staff, I think there is time. You know, mostly procrastinate like I do, which is happens. And the other thing I mean, I I appreciate your point, but I a lot of times, the work sessions we've got a lot to discuss, I think, besides just land use decisions. So and I love love the idea of having more work sessions during the day.

I think it would be better for staff, you know, one less late evening for them, I guess. So I I'm flexible. I'm I'm good with whatever, but I do. I really do like the idea of more work sessions, more inputting, more counseling together. It's which I think is the intent of that.

Mister mayor, can I ask you a question? Yes. From our perspective, I mean, we're here either day. So, it makes no difference to us. Is there something special about Thursday work sessions as opposed to Tuesday or any other day? Just I I I don't know.

Help, if you don't mind, Jason, help us understand the difference between work session which we're having now, pre council, and council.

Yeah. And maybe Ryan can chime in too if I lead us astray. But generally speaking, we work backwards. So, a general meeting, that's when council can take action on items. That's when things are the most polished. They're ready for your approval. There are times when we may bring something that's not quite there and then we work a little bit of that out. But generally speaking, we like that to be the finished product. Pre council, that's typically reports or presentations, more informational items that will come to the mayor and council. Work session is really where we get our hands dirty.

We have difficult discussions. We look at studies. We ask staff questions, things like that. So it's much more hands on, if you will, discussions. So am I seeing anything wrong?

From the perspective of the Opens Meetings Act, there is no difference. It's just the way you want to characterize kind of how each meeting works. So, the noticing requirements are the same. The the you know, we typically we've just said, well, only items for approval are on the regular session, not so much work session and pre council. So, it's just kind of really up to your discretion of what you want the nature of each of those meetings to look like but as far as the legal requirements, there is no difference.

Okay.

Mister if I would just I'm interested to hear Heather's thoughts as well and I apologize for my voice. It's left me at a very bad time. But I I kind of like the idea of Thursdays just because I understand Tuesdays are going to be busy preparing for votes and decisions that night. Monday and Wednesday, I'm not sure if that would be great to have back to back days with meetings. Fridays, I know that much of staff is out on Fridays and so using Thursday with early enough in the day that there's a buffer between work session and planning commission I think that's probably a wise thing to do but I'd also like to hear Heather's thoughts.

Yeah I mean one is making sure all council members are able to attend that it works with their schedule because this is something new especially especially during the middle of the day. So, that would be critical. I wouldn't see an issue with I know we talked about earlier about having work sessions on Tuesday starting earlier having everybody come prepared to have seen the items through Planning Commission leading up to that be able to talk about it for the meeting within two weeks. Just work sessions never going to be a replacement for the amount of work that needs to be done on an item. There are staff members, applicants, council members in other cities, members of the public who you're all going to have to discuss items with.

So to think that we're able to, you know, do that just with the one work session. There's still a lot of work that needs to go into each of these items. So I do like the idea of being able to have more work sessions especially since this will be newer to be able to dig in. But I had, you know, the most important thing to me is that it fits with everybody's schedule and that I really wouldn't like to just throw extra meetings at staff if it makes more sense to consolidate them. I also know we all have a lot of meetings as we start joining and being liaisons to other organizations, especially you, Mayor, that, you know, there's

going to be a lot

of meetings that you're going to be required to be at too. So the more we can consolidate that, I think, you know, everybody knows that Tuesdays are the meetings that everybody in the city are meeting on. American Fork does every Tuesday. Other cities are not meeting on Thursdays. So it may kind of hinder the ability to have other meetings on those days, which is typically a popular day to have meetings with these other groups too. Okay.

Can I One say hesitation I have of having them on Tuesdays before the regular session is there's decision fatigue which is like a we all know this is a human condition and if we're putting a lot of effort and time into these big issues in the work sessions, then we come to vote? And then what I have noticed is these meetings, city council meetings are going later. The issues are getting bigger. We're voting. We're making decisions.

And I just I want us to be fresh. I want us to be able to focus fully on the ones that we're voting on. The work sessions, I want us to be able to study and dig in deep to those also. And I and I I'd love us to not conflict and I don't know. I've heard, I think I remember you told me like Tuesdays like those days are gone like you're focusing on things getting ready for City Council like right Heather and then and then I just think yeah anyways that's why.

Yeah and I'm kind of thinking whether it's Tuesday or Thursday, we're still two weeks out on an item. I'm seeing a work session as more as a presentation of what's coming. Like I'm probably not coming to a work session having dug in. I'm probably coming at that point unless we're doing the Thursday before the Tuesday meeting, like if it was the the first and third weeks, I don't know. Because to me, it almost be like, okay, now I know what this is. Now I gotta go do the rest of the work to understand the application. It'll almost be like I'm wanting to hear a presentation. I want to make sure that I've seen planning commission beyond that item beforehand too. I want to make sure we don't have a work session before it goes to planning commission. So if we get too far ahead of things, that's also a concern too.

Mayor, may I? Yeah. I agree with Rachel. I would not want to have a big long meeting with a work session and a regular session. That's too much. And I see a work session. I would like to see a new direction with the work session. I would like to see it more proactive discussion around things where the council contributes as much as the staff giving a presentation. I don't see this as something prepping us for something that's going to come toward for us on a regular agenda. I think this is a deep dive into budget issues or some of our master plans or that sort of thing.

So I would much prefer having a separate day dedicated. I think if we have it early enough in the day, that'll free up our evenings for other meetings that we may need to attend. And who knows? Maybe other city councils from other cities might want to come in, listen in. You know, so I I support having a separate day and yeah, earlier in the day if, you know, as long as people are able the council members are able to attend that.

Mister mayor, may I have a question as far as your approach to public comment? Mayors, you know, have the discretion to do it differently. At at this time the public comment really happens at the planning commission level which is why I would like to have that information from the public as we start getting into these issues are you planning on having public comment during our city council meetings

So, currently, we, I'm planning on having twenty minutes of of open comment at the at the start of a city council meeting. Well, they'll have twenty minutes, three minutes. They can come share whatever whatever's on that what's on their

Okay. And burning not that you have to decide today, like on an item level basis, is that something you would open up?

We'll look at those as they Okay. Come

Because that is important to me to be ordered in order to make these decisions we really need to have that public engagement and on that point Thursday at 01:00 a lot of our residents work full time jobs that are during the eight to five hours. It concerns me that we'd be holding very important meetings as council member Stalin mentioned where we'd be talking about budget issues general plan diving into the meat and nitty gritty of these topics and our residents who deeply want to be involved in that would be working their full time jobs at that time. Just a point of thought not that everyone works an eight to five but a lot of people do and it's just something to consider.

No, that's a thought and I think you're right there but I also would tell you that a work session normally does not have public comments. So tonight's a work session. We won't have public comment tonight. And it is recorded. It is an opportunity where they can go and and see that. It is public. It is listed. They would be able to go find that information. So, there's that side of it too. Jason, did you have a thought?

No, I mean, like I said, staff were here anyway. I was just thinking Wednesdays would probably be a not good day because we have DRC. So planning staff would be absolutely inundated on Wednesdays. Know we're not contemplating that. Another thought I had was, well, what if every Tuesday was a meeting so that we had a meeting every Tuesday night, just a different form of a meeting. Right. Or I I don't know. I'm just again, I don't I'm going be here anyway. So, I I don't

care. So, it's. So, here's what I'll do. I'll I'll take that all under advisement. We'll we'll look at it. I did have a meeting with staff this morning. We had a brief discussion about making sure we all have information a week ahead. They're going to do their best in the coming weeks. It's not going to be next week. It'll take us a couple of weeks to get it rolling and making sure that you have the information so that you have contact with who you need to have contact to make the best decisions that you can. So we met this morning on that. I will take that with advisement. We'll put that together and send it out.

Mayor Vance, can I make another comment too? It's in a different direction. I'm curious about the change to the all day budget discussion being moved up. I don't know why that was because we've we've had that on the schedule for several months. But whatever the reason, I'm concerned about, one, if we have people who have been scheduled to come that day and rescheduling them. But also because of the amount of preparation each of the departments have to go in to that I would prefer that it was moved further into February if necessary to make sure that everybody has the full amount of time they need rather than move that up to them at in this later date.

So, you're talking about the budget retreat?

Yeah, on the twenty ninth.

So, we have a we have a council member who has a family a great family thing that day and they should be at that. So, there will be I'm I will actually meet with Jason in the next day or two and Cam and we'll put together to see if we can stretch that day

would suggest moving it to the fifth then rather than to move up the schedule on staff.

We'll look at that. We do we are aware of that you'll and we'll give you more information as that comes. But there is a member of the council who won't be able to be with us all that day.

And I think that's great that we're making sure everybody can be there.

Yeah, we want make sure we're at 100%. So thank you for bringing that up. I'll talk to Jason and Cam about that. We'll get it planned. Okay. Accordingly. Any other comments on the council meeting schedules?

Just just one comment, mayor, on the reasoning for the second and fourth weeks as opposed to every week. I think it's helpful to have weeks where we can do assignment tasks meet with staff and to have two weeks where we were free without any upcoming meetings or agenda items. I think that's helpful just personally I think that would be nice to stack them on the second and fourth weeks and I think maybe staff would appreciate that as well but just input on that.

I'm all about less meetings. So, agree there. I'm just trying to think holistically how we can

solve this. No, I think we're on the the same page here putting it together. We'll put it together and then and then send it out to you. Any last comments there? Great.

Okay, we'll have presentation and review of rules and order and procedures. Lehigh Municipal Code one dash six dash three dash one. Tisha, you are up. Just so you know, I always wondered how the council saw what was behind them. Now I know.

Oh, no. Center. There you go.

You're probably not going to be able to read what I put on the PowerPoint anyway because it's going to be really small but it's just a way to kind of help me through the talking points. So rules of order and procedure. We'll kind of just start with the purpose of this. It's to expedite and facilitate the city council business in an orderly fashion. And so pretty much everything that I'm taking in this presentation comes straight from city code. So and I encourage you to read that section. I let's see. I had it it's Lehigh City code One-six-one-three or Three-one. So, yeah. So in that code it says that the purpose is to expedite and facilitate City Council business in an orderly fashion.

Failure to observe the rules will not invalidate any action taken by the City Council. So kind of breaking a rule so to speak doesn't invalidate any of your decisions. And then these rules are to be reviewed every two years and kind of at that time that we review them which is now, you can also feel free to have make suggestions changes or have discussions if you wanna go a different direction. Okay. So Robert's Rules of Order, I gave each of you a book.

I wasn't sure if Michelle and Heather had you might already have copies. You do. You can so I you can just leave that with and we can save it for somebody else that wants to read. Maybe if another staff member wants to read it, they can. So we we say that we loosely follow these rules.

These are kind of the most common things that we stick to or try to stick to in Robert's rules. But if you want to kind of experiment and look at other things with the rules, feel free to do so and talk to the mayor about about those things. But this is kind of generally the things that we stick to and follow. So when there's item up for a vote after it's been discussed, the mayor calls for a motion or asks for a motion and then a council member makes the motion, there's a second and then there and then the mayor opens it up for discussion on that motion. And then this is also the opportunity when amendments can be made.

And any amendment that is made to a motion also requires a second. Then roll call vote is a roll call vote is taken. Now city code specifies that for certain things, it's a requirement that a roll call vote is taken. For record keeping, it's easier mayor for my end if you just do a roll call vote on every every item because it is a requirement that I have to note in the minutes how each council member voted on that item. So because of that it's just easier if you had do all votes by roll call.

And then you announce the the result. Okay. Postponing or tabling a motion. If you are planning to, if you want to continue an item to a next meeting, if you don't have enough information, you need more information, it's not ready, rather than tabling a motion, it's preferable to postpone it if you intend on seeing the item again. So if you could make a motion that says you want to postpone this item until a specific council meeting or you want to postpone this item until you have this certain amount of information, that's usually the best way to do that.

Then we're not tabling items because it once you table an item it's like on the table indefinitely until you bring it back. And some items might never even come back and then they're just kind of left on the table. And then you don't have to go through motions of untabling an item as well. So it's just preferably just use postpone rather than table. Other things that you can do is you can limit debate before a motion is made.

So you could say that you so the council could make a motion at any time to limit debate on an item. You know, as long as it's probably not less than three minutes, which is usually specified which is specified in our code. You can also move at a time to close the debate. If everyone's also if all if everyone on the council has spoken already about the item and you're just kind of ready to move to a motion, council member can also move to end of the debate. So just some just some options that you're aware of.

Previous question, this is also used at the end of a debate if counsel's ready to kind of move on and just make a motion on the item or a vote, then they can say I move the previous question. And then if you have any questions kind of as we're going through these points, just go ahead and just interrupt me to ask the questions. Okay. Code of conduct. I realized I wasn't speaking into this.

Could you hear me okay? Yeah. All right. So the for code of conduct, so the mayor is the chairperson and he will only vote in the case of a tie. So no one member of the council can make decisions for the group.

So members shouldn't give the perception that they represent the full body of the council without kind of the council's approval or vote. Also in the code, let's see, it specifies council members should not exercise individual authority over the city, its employees, and its enterprises. That's pretty self explanatory. Council members must represent the interests of all Lehigh citizens and consider the interests of Lehigh citizens as a whole and vote accordingly. So that's the specific language in the code.

So your job is to consider how your decision affects the whole of the city rather than just individual groups, individuals or neighborhoods. So you must consider like the negative and positive consequences to the city as a whole and vote accordingly. Adherence to procedures, the mayor is primarily responsible to ensure the council staff and members of the public are following these procedures. And the council can assist the mayor in preserving order and making sure that these procedures are being followed. The council members should not delay or interrupt the proceedings.

All persons addressing the City Council including the administrator staff and members of the public shall be recognized by the chair. So anytime other members of the public want to speak or staff or other council members, it's best to just first ask the mayor to be recognized or just notify the mayor that you'd like to speak and then he can choose whether or not you're allowed to allowed to speak. And then all remarks remarks should should be be limited limited to to the the matter matter that's that's being being discussed. Discussed. Council desiring to speak shall address the chair.

We we just talked about that. So just addressing the chair or the mayor before you before you speak. Count oops, sorry. Council members, once recognized, should not be interrupted while speaking unless there's a order by the chair or a point of order is raised. Questions and debates shall be limited to just the issue that's before you.

Avoid discussion of personalities, personal attacks, verbal abuse, things like that should be avoided. It's also not appropriate for anyone to berate the mayor, council, or staff in a public meeting. And then administrative staff, basically administrative staff is held to the same standards as the, as the mayor and council. Now code of conduct for visitors and citizens. So they should so citizens should refrain from private conversations while in the chambers and while the council meeting's in session.

They observe the same rules of decorum. The mayor can actually remove any person that he feels is being boisterous, whatever that means. The mayor can remove that person and and for other reasons too if they if he feels like they're being disruptive in the council meeting. And if the council if you feel like the mayor's not removing somebody that should be removed, you can also make a motion to remove an individual if you feel like the mayor's not acting on it. But from what I know of Mayor Benz, he doesn't have a problem removing people from meetings because that's what he does as a referee, right? You remove people from games.

I've only ever kicked out one, so you know.

Only one. Okay. Perfect. It wasn't someone I'm related to, was it?

It was

not. Okay. Perfect. And then just unauthorized remarks from the audience like yells and clapping shall not be permitted. Banners and signs are unless it's like an exhibit or a display that's connected to something being discussed.

And then disruption of a council meeting can actually be prosecuted as a Class B misdemeanor. Council members. So council members, you may dissent any action taken by the city council. So you can obviously express that you dissent and your reason for dissenting. And you can also request that that reason be put directly into the minutes.

Excusal from attendance. If counsel, if you are not going to be here, please let let the chair know. Let mayor Binns know if you're not going to be here. And also if you could let myself and Jason know as well, then we can kind of make preparations or be prepared for that. Chair duties.

Okay. So the mayor presides in the mayor's absence will be the mayor pro tem. So the chair of the meeting will be the mayor pro tem in the mayor's absence. And if both happen to be absent for one meeting, then counsel, you will elect a chair just for that meeting. Chair, so a chair can also ask the police officer that's here. We have a police officer that attends all of our meetings. So you can also ask the police officer to remove someone if you feel that's warranted.

Hey Tisha?

Yeah.

Just one question back to the dissent. Is that immediately following a no vote or?

You know it just says dissent. It doesn't say that it's directly following a vote. I'm sure that it's implied that that is directly following a vote. But I would also expect that any the council has a dissenting opinion that that can be expressed and recorded in the minutes if they if they choose.

Thank you.

Okay. Let's see. Also, the mayor, you can ask for a recess too when it's appropriate. When you feel like it's an appropriate time during the meeting, you can have a recess. And counsel, if you need a recess, recess, just ask the mayor for one.

Oh, and then also the chair will decide who and when. Well, yeah, the chair will determine when the public's allowed to speak. Okay. Agendas. We kind of talked a little bit about agendas.

Those are so I prepare the agendas under the direction of the mayor and the city administrator. And in the event that a council member wants to add an item, a council member must obtain consent from the mayor or one additional council member. So this was included in the code as a way for the council to add items if the mayor refuses. So if the mayor and council aren't really getting along and the mayor's refusing to put items on the agenda that you want, then that's kind of the purpose of this. Best practices though for this would be if you have so if you have an item that you want on the agenda, the best way probably to go about it is to talk to the mayor and or Jason about that and kind of discuss it with them.

They might have additional information or additional viewpoints, things like that. They may have information like it may be necessary to add that to a different agenda item, things like that. So that's kind of my suggestion for best practices with that. Also City Council members desiring to introduce items that may require substantial staff time must first place the item on a pre council meeting agenda. And then after being presented, a majority vote of the council is required to move that agenda item forward.

And so the purpose of this was to protect city resources staff time. So if you have let's say like if you have one or two council members that for example thinks that maybe one or two council members thinks that we should combine fire and EMS with Saratoga Springs combine those two departments. Is he here? Example only. However, so if you have one or two people that or one or two council members suggesting that.

However, if the whole majority if the majority of the council is mostly against even entertaining that and doesn't want to waste city resources on that, then that can be used to kind of protect those resources. So basically it's kind of to prevent individual council members from going in a direction that's very different from the majority of the council.

Tisha, sorry. It says majority formal vote or just kind of a straw poll kind of thing?

Let's see. A majority vote of the council. So if it's officially being presented in a work session meeting and the mayor thinks that it's and if the mayor kind of thinks like that it's likely that the other council members don't want to move forward with this item, then he can ask then yeah, then you can take a vote there to move forward with it. So the item would first have to be on like a work session agenda. Does that make sense?

Yeah does that change noticing requirements if there's votes involved or?

We kind of

like a head nod that we haven't really done an Yeah. Official

I think, Ryan, do you have a preference? It probably doesn't really matter if it's a vote or a head nod type of thing because you're not taking necessarily official city actions. Yeah.

I

I like the idea of a formal vote because then it's clear. Right? And you can go back in the minutes and and see what the vote actually was. But I'm just wondering if it changes noticing at all. I agree with that.

If we, I mean, if we know ahead of time that we need to have a vote on it, then we can certainly notice it that way. But again, where it's not official action, you can do a head nod or a vote. And maybe probably what Deborah Mayor Bins prefers to do with that.

And he could just ask individually for against kind of Yes. Yeah, he can.

Okay. Okay. Agendas can be amended. So the noticing requirement and Ryan will actually go into this at the next City Council meeting. He'll have the open open public meetings act training at our next City council meeting. The kind of the deadline for posting agendas is twenty four hours notice and so that also applies to amending the agendas. So amendments can be made up to twenty four hours before the meeting. And then we've kind of had discussions about posting those agendas a week before before the meeting. And so staff is kind of going to start working towards that that direction.

Tisha? Yeah. I've noticed in the past there's been items that have been removed last minute.

Yeah.

Like during the meeting. Can you explain the difference?

Just for individual items? Oh sure, yeah. So it's what if you're going to add something to the meeting. So like the intent the intent behind this is the council shouldn't be discussing something that wasn't noticed by that wasn't where the notice wasn't or the where the public wasn't given sufficient notice right But if you're pulling it from the agenda, then you're not discussing it, right? So yeah, do you have anything?

Yeah, the first instance it's a legal requirement. In the second instance it's more a matter of inconvenience for those that have come to speak on that item. But it's not a legal requirement that you amend the agenda to remove items just because again in the first instance at least the public knows that it's going to be discussed and the second item you've inconvenienced people by taking it off but it's not a legal notice requirement.

And usually what best practice what we've tried to do if we anticipate that there's going to be public showing up for this item, we'll just note we'll update the agenda on the website that and I'll usually like highlight it or something that says like this item's been pulled from the meeting. If it's not if it's something that we don't anticipate a lot of well, any if we don't anticipate any public comment on it, we may not do that. We may just pull it before the meeting. And it's probably best to, Mayor, if we have items like that, to just announce that at the beginning of the meeting just to kind of make everybody aware that you're, you know, not going to be discussing that. And we can also let the council know as well.

Like as soon as we know that an item is being pulled, we can notify the council. Yeah. Any other questions about that?

Tisha, for the agendas, as a council member, sometimes we were noticed about this is going to be discussed, but we don't get the information until sometimes the day of. Right? And I guess this is more of a request, though, because I I that fulfills the legal requirements, right, just noticing it. But it's especially the minutes. I am a procrastinator, so I don't have time the day out to read the minutes all the time before the meeting. So, yeah, I guess the sooner we get those things, it just helps. I agree. And I'd rather have time to read it and vote to approve it. It'll pull it, you know, until we have enough time to read it.

Yes. That makes sense.

I I would just add to that. If if there is especially a major decision that's coming down and there's documents added and not enough time for the full council to review it and be prepared for the meeting. I think it would be a good practice to push push that agenda item to a later date if it makes sense just because sometimes there's dozens or hundreds of pages to read.

Yeah and I I always take that direction from the mayor. So if yeah if the mayor feels comfortable moving forward with an item if he feels like he has enough votes and wants to move forward with it that's at his discretion to do so if he chooses. But yeah certainly I think it's it is best practice for sure to make sure everybody has all the information before a vote is taken.

So we can complain to him if

Yes, you can. Absolutely. I do. Okay. Oh, and then kind of like what we what we discussed earlier.

So pre counselor work sessions can be held for presentations or, yeah, discussions ahead of a meeting. And then I think kind of what we said earlier, final action generally is not taken in a work session meeting or pre council unless it's necessary to advance the work of the city. So the only time that we've had items on a work session that are on there for approval is because the mayor felt like it was necessary to advance the work of the city. But otherwise generally we don't follow that practice. And then, you know, with the difference between like work sessions and pre councils, yeah, like kind of like Ryan said, it's all kind of the same.

It's just how you want to, how you want the meeting to run. Okay, citizen speaker rules. So only one person can approach the mic unless approved by the chair. And only the person at the mic may speak. And they must clearly identify themselves.

And that's for the record and that's a requirement. Have to anyone that comes to speak before the council, I have to have their name in the record. So hopefully you can give that direction before the public makes their comments. To let's see oh yeah, to reduce replication and save time, pooling of speakers is encouraged where one person may speak for a group. Written comments can be submitted before the meeting to the council. Speaker shall address their comments only to the mayor and council. So sometimes the public may turn and try to address an applicant or staff or something. And if you just redirect their attention to the mayor and council.

That's

Can I ask a question about that?

Yeah, sure.

So I have never been a council member before obviously and it there's a little button you click that says e comment. So when someone does that, where does it send the comment to?

Yeah, you guys will get those comments directly sent to you in your email.

Okay.

Yes. And in fact, the system is set up to where I can't specify between Planning Commission and City Council. So you will also be getting Planning Commission comments which I think I mean that's probably helpful anyway, right? Can I

ask you a quick question? How long before the meeting does that functionality turn off?

Yeah, so I think it's around it's like 11:00 or noon and I think I specify on the website when that when that needs to be. And I mean I think on the website I encourage people to get their comments in as soon as possible so that you guys have time to consider all of those comments. But yeah, it's I think just the morning of the meeting. Yeah. And we can change that if you'd like. Like if you want that extended you can or or we can just kind of keep it at like noonish.

Whatever the senior people think.

Heather and Michelle, are you you're getting those comments? You have enough time to you have enough time to read those comments?

Yeah. Most of those comments come when it comes to the Planning Commission. So, we get em well ahead. Because that's

when it's being noticed. So, yeah.

So, you're getting, you feel like there's enough time if we're cutting that off at noon?

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah we're usually most comments are for the Planning Commission meeting because like yeah that's when the public noticing goes out like the letters are actually sent and so the public is generally paying more attention to those letters that they get in the mail. Where City Council we honestly don't have very many that use that e comment.

And Mayor, it might add to you. My concern would be is if we're preparing for a meeting and someone does send an email and we miss it, then I feel bad. Like if they're sending an email at 05:00 and we miss it. Whereas, you know, if we know by noon, we have time to respond to them. They know that they've been heard. That's probably a better, you know, for them. They can always email us. And, like, I I don't know if on the web page if it has and it should, like, have a link to the council. If they

can't leave an

e comment, they could just go to that page and send everybody an email if they wanted to as well.

That's also on the website.

Are we able to respond to e comments? I didn't think there was

So e comments, comments, so no, not directly. However, you can respond to I can run a report for you that shows the email that came with that comment. The email address. So if you want to respond just let me know and I can can run a report and send you the their emails.

I would love it with the new website if we can just have an email address attached to what whatever comment comes to us so we know you know what I mean just saves a step, saves you a step, saves a step like we can engage with the public. Yeah. If if needed. In fact we

may have that ability to already add that. Will check and see if

that's something would just like us be able be as responsive as possible.

Mr. Mayor, if I can add on to that. If they send us a comment with notice that this is a part of the public record. This isn't just an email that would have to be grandma ed. The comment given becomes a part of the public record. So I think it'd be important for everyone to recognize that your response I'm assuming would also be. And that you as you would want to respond accordingly with the knowledge that it would be the public record.

Yeah. Thank you. Kind of is anyway. Right? What's that? Our responses are public record anyway.

Mean Well, mean, they're all they're all can be grandma requested. They're subject to grandma. So somebody could request those. And that's the same whether they submit something through e comment or directly to your email.

So I'm with you Heather. I think as long as we have that and someone made a comment but there was a cut off so we know the comments are there then because I'm with you I would hate for a comment to come in five and we miss it so.

And I like I'm Michelle's fully right I think I'm getting more emails than I'm getting e comments typically so. Right. And that could be part of it too.

Yeah and that's on our website there's that option as well and some people do feel just more comfortable emailing you all directly. And so that's why we have that option on the website too.

So I think we keep it cut off so that's pretty Okay.

All right. Speakers, okay let's see. Public hearing remarks must be limited to the matter being considered. We've kind of covered that a lot. Speakers have approximately three minutes. So in our code that says speakers have three minutes. However, the mayor may grant longer time or shorten the time just based on the circumstances or the amount of people there to speak on the item. Sorry,

quick question. Has to be decided beforehand, right? You can't just It should be beforehand. Now what if you have and I know this has been done in the past where you have a representative of a group and they say, well, I yield my time so this person can have extra time. Is that again could at the mayor's discretion or is Okay. Yeah.

And I think it's good for the mayor to encourage a spokesperson. If a neighborhood can get together and kind of have a spokesperson that can grant them more time. I think that's very appropriate. But again, yeah, that that kind of thing would be the mayor's discretion. Oh, and then just that the council members will refrain refrain from debate during the time allotted to speakers.

So have everybody give their give their public comments first. Even though it's really tempting sometimes to respond to citizens or applicants when they're right here, it's best just to go through everybody. It's more efficient and then everybody's questions can be addressed after the public comment. Okay. Electronic meetings.

So council members may participate electronically as long as the method allows for real time interaction to discuss, ask questions, and vote. So we don't need a camera. You don't have to have a camera on in order to participate in a meeting. But you do have to be able to listen to the discussion and participate in the discussion and vote. You can't just text your vote into the mayor and say you were listening, but there's no way to actually talk to you.

Anyway, yeah. Just yeah. Texting texting your vote in doesn't work. Let's see. And then just pre meeting, if you're planning if you do want to participate electronically if you could give us a heads up notice that is very much appreciated and then if you want to make sure that everything on your end if your connections working on your end just contact contact myself or a management analyst and we'll make sure that we make that connection with you before the meeting to make sure that everything everything works great.

Yeah, it's the mayor's responsibility to enforce the rules and the council should insist that the rules be followed. Council members if the mayor is following the rules, I guess, then you don't have necessarily like a it's hard to raise a question as long as the mayor is following the rules. Mayor is responsible to see that both the public and members of the council act civilly. But yeah, again assistance from the council is appropriate and appreciated. Okay. We'll go any questions then before we move on to the Ethics Act? Any questions about rules, procedures, suggestions, changes, changes, Ethics discussion? Discussion?

It's rare I have one. Just curiosity, with the disruption by the public being a Class B misdemeanor, does that also apply to Planning Commission? Is it any meeting or is it specifically City Council?

I would have to look at the code and see if it says meetings or. Okay.

May have a couple questions. It I'm going to ask Jason this because it says in there, we're supposed to address the chair but when we have questions for staff, we're supposed to ask them of the city administrator first that I know we typically call in individuals. So,

maybe I'm speaking out of turn. Yeah. If you just a mayor, I have a question for staff and then

we can

dialogue from I don't think every single question.

Like we've never done that

that I've done. So. I think it's just to prevent sidebar conversations and things like that but.

Okay. So, address the mayor and then.

Good point of clarification.

Yeah. And usually the mayor too will say, well, in the past, the mayor mayors have said, you know, does yeah, does council have any questions for staff? And then, you can kind of just informally have that interaction with staff.

Okay. Do you, I'm happy to hear that we can postpone items. Is there any reason to table them versus postpone?

Yeah, there could be, there could be reasons if you're not sure when you want to bring it back like if you don't have or if you don't want to bring it back too if or if you're not sure if you don't want to bring it back or you're not sure then tabling it is the best option.

Okay. Okay. So question about that if you're done.

I'm not but

go ahead.

Okay. Finish.

Go ahead and finish.

Oh I have other questions.

So if

you have

a follow-up. Well

just how would you untable something so just at like a next you would just say, hey I would like to bring, do you put it on the

agenda Oh, so to I would put it on to untable. But it would have to be requested. The mayor, you know, I would take, I would take the direction of the mayor and and he would say like we need to put that on the agenda to untable that item. And then the very next thing on that agenda would be that item. So if you untable it, then you can discuss it and vote. If you choose not to untable it, then we just skip it.

Okay. Same realm of questions. So sorry to interrupt you, Michelle. This is how in my mind maybe this is what would work. Work. So we've had the instance where we've tabled something because we've had them go to a developer agreement. So there may be this undetermined amount of time. So the tabling would be when they come back with the developer agreement rather than saying postpone is we're going to set a date of when it's postponed to. Is that when

you kind of That makes sense. Yeah. Just I think if you if you intend to delay a vote but you have intentions of bringing it back whether that's at a very specific date or if it's something where you need more information, you can also postpone for that. You can say that, you know, I move that we postpone this meeting until we get this traffic report back or until we get this or until staff is ready to bring this back to the council. So if you have direction Yeah.

You can. Okay.

Yeah. It's just kind of the yeah. On yeah. You can use them interchangeably.

Okay.

There's just kind of just the procedure is different.

It's also a different message

sent

on the item. Right? Yeah. Tabling it has a somewhat of a death to it where postponing doesn't. Yeah. Yep. Good weight. Michelle.

Thank you. Sorry. Okay. This is the I do not see any problem with this with our our mayor here and his experience things and enforcing rules but if there's an instance where we think, okay, that's not a pro or you know, the rule. Is there a way to kindly, you know, bring that up. Point of order or, you know?

Yeah, I think it is a point of order. I would have to break out the little book see if that would be best appropriate just kind of going off of what I know, think point of order is the best and then he can address that as part of the procedures. So yeah anytime there's like a procedural question, yeah point of order is probably the best way to bring that up.

Okay and then when the public is addressing the council and maybe they felt the need to be us or make personal comments or whatever. Where is the line of freedom of speech, you know, versus decorum? And the one thing that I I can see is that we are supposed to address the topic at hand and so if they get off the topic, you know, in any direction, then we can bring it back.

I'm going to turn free speech stuff over to Ryan.

I just know other city councils have dealt with that.

Yeah. So certain I mean, so there's kind of a different purpose, right? The twenty minute citizen input, they can talk about they want they're just limited in time and even that's not a requirement of an open meeting it's just more of a again a consideration of the public you know if they get on if they get off topic that would be something I'd you know want to see the mayor try to bring them back eventually I think the mayor could cut someone off I don't think we'd ever want to you know initiate the procedures to expel somebody from the meeting if it's just content based or they go but because we need to come to the point where no matter what they're saying it's not it's not what they're talking about but it's disruptive to the meeting that we would excuse them for the meeting. So yeah. Because the first amendment there have been cases where legislative bodies try to kick somebody out because of what they're saying and that gets them in a lot of trouble.

Versus manner.

Yeah. Mr. Mayor if I may on that point I think the line really comes down to threats of violence. Council member Newell and I have both been a part of a meeting where someone was escorted out because of something like that. And so for me, I I I absolutely believe in the First Amendment, but any threat of violence would be where I would draw the line.

And it could be more than that, but that's certainly one category where you could kick somebody out. But even if somebody just refuses to sit down after their time

Right.

And again, with some discretion, they go three and a half minutes, you're not gonna throw somebody out of the meeting. But after you've asked them a couple of times, okay, your time's up. Thank you for your comments. And they just won't stop or they're yelling at people, then we'd escort them out of the meeting.

Do you want to maybe talk to you about like the difference between like a public forum, like creating a public forum versus kind of our public comments?

Yeah. I mean that's a much broader discussion because when you talk about public forum you're talking about websites and you're talking about you know also probably not tonight but yeah.

Would be a discuss a good discussion maybe when we do open or something. But

Okay. Any other questions about that then before we

Okay. Sorry. One more.

Just to clarify, in in the code here, it talks about that you're not supposed to represent that you're representing the body unless there's a vote of the body making you that spokesperson. And that comes from the the body, not the mayor necessarily, right? The mayor is not the one who designates a spokesman.

Correct. Okay. Sometimes, the mayor will know that he has the support of at least three council members. So, it does say though that it require that I think in our code, it does say a vote is required.

So, that can be a head nod.

Yes. Yeah. Just a head nod or direction. Yeah. Go ahead.

Because there's a whole range of very formal things where you need to appoint one of you to speak on, know, to attend a hearing or attend something. And then there, I mean, I'll just, I'm sure everybody has in mind something in the newspaper or goes on the radio or gives an interview. That one's a little more difficult to have some formal procedure where somebody's been designated. But still, you know, the precaution would be if you're speaking and this is the mayor. And the mayor is one of the council members just a non voting member but whether it's the mayor or one of you as council members that's more of a caution to just be careful that if you're just representing your views that you make that clear and not say you know not not give the impression to the media and therefore the public that you're speaking on behalf of the city or the entire council so

and that but that's tricky you know what I'm asking

yeah

yes so we we have freedom of speech rights and as long as we clarify multiple times whether it's included or not.

Can certainly speak on anything you want.

Shout being recommended. That's great.

Okay. So do you say that then? Like if you're doing a Facebook post or you're saying this is my opinion or this is my view? Well, if you're not designated

If it's something that you've already acted upon to. Like so if the council's already made a decision about something, it's probably a little easier for you to just say your opinion. But if you're speaking to something that the council hasn't decided, that's probably where you just need to be a little bit cautious saying just clarifying that you're you're just representing these are your views.

Heather Gila, do have a comment?

I would say because I I did quite a few interviews. I would always start the interview with that statement that I represent myself. These are my opinions. Having that clear. I would never use we statements, saying we is, you know, the counsel or anything like that.

Just I think if you get in as you are doing interviews, make sure that you are and then I also think what was saying, like, really careful if you're doing something before it's been presented to counsel. But, yeah, it's I know it's tough because they can always just, you know, take a quote from the middle of what you're saying but I think if you just, you know, make that really clear and that was just something that just became almost automatic of being able to say, this is who I am. This is, you know, I'm speaking on behalf of myself. I do not represent the city, you know, and that's.

Mister mayor, while we're on the topic, can we put Teal on the spot and maybe just talk about media requests and how the best way to handle that?

Yes, please. Yes.

Teal. Do you want

to come up here, Teal?

Welcome, Teal.

Thanks for having me.

So, when it comes to media and you'll get requests all the time. Most of the time, they'll come directly to me but if they happen to come to you for your own, I guess you can say, like, protection and to make sure that you are knowledgeable about what they're asking about, I prefer and we ask that you come to me. I like to also be in those interviews as much as possible. Again, it's just that I don't want them getting you in a situation where they it's like a a gotcha situation. It's obviously, there's gonna be stories that don't paint Lehi in the best light and we understand that.

It's not about hiding anything. It's about putting out the right information. Information that is going to help our community. Information that is accurate and that is relevant. So, yeah. Do you guys have any questions?

No. Thank you. Okay.

Any other any other questions before we move on to ethics? Okay. So the Municipal Officers and Employees Ethics Act, I put the code on there. So it's Utah code 10 dash three dash 13. I encourage you all to read that section thoroughly so you understand it and know what's in there.

And feel free to reach out to Wry as you're reading through it too if you have questions. Please reach out to Ryan on that one. He knows more about that code than I do. And so as I'm kind of presenting this to Ryan, I hope he'll chime in and, yeah, give us additional information as we go through these things. Okay.

So just the purpose of the employee, well I'm just gonna call it the Ethics Act. The purpose of the Ethics Act is to restrict officials from acting in a way that benefits them personally or financially. And officials may not act in a way that creates a conflict between private interests and your public duties. Requirements, so prohibits officials and employees from using their position for personal gain. Disclosures.

So new last year the state passed a requirement that all council and mayor members submit a financial disclosure document to actually to myself and then I am required to send a link to the state. These also have to be posted on our website and those will be on our website until such time that you leave office. So and the requirement is very specific. It has to be submitted between January 1 and January 31 of each year. So I will be sending you all a copy of disclosure for you to redo and sign and get back to me.

And then we'll have those posted on the website. And also just a note on any disclosures, just disclosing it on that document isn't good enough if there's a conflict that arises during a meeting. So if you have a conflict during a meeting, you are also required to disclose that at the meeting. And we'll kind of get a little bit more into that later. And then also just gifts, you cannot accept any gifts over $50 However, this doesn't include campaign donations. Oh, go ahead. I missed something?

No, no, no. There's just a little bit of nuance. So the $50 limit is a safe harbor. And so there's a term, I think it's an economic benefit tantamount to a gift or something like that. So you stay under 50 then you're good, right?

But that's not so somebody I often will get a question like well a group wants to take us golfing and actually the green fees are $65 so does that mean I have violated the municipal off you know employees and officers ethics act? And I say not necessarily. Right? So let me just read a little bit of language to you and again we can go over this in more detail later if you want. But it's basically it says, if if accepting that gift of substantial value would tend improperly to influence a reasonable person in the person's position to depart from the faithful and impartial discharge of the person's public duties, or the person knows, or that a reasonable person in that position should know under the circumstances that's primarily for the purpose of rewarding the person for official action taken.

Plain English. The first of that is, are they trying to influence your decision, I. E. Your vote? As it applies to you, this will be a little bit different context with an employee. Or are they rewarding you for some decision that you've made, again, mostly expressed through your vote? So, you know, if a department head comes to me and says, you know, what about the $65 gift or $65 golf, is that a violation? It's not an automatic violation. But if you're in a position where you're deciding whether to recommend a contract with this company to the city council, then you better stay under the $50 limit. Because if you go over it, you're now outside the safe harbor.

And so somebody can then conduct the analysis of that language to see if a reasonable person that means it's an objective standard. If a reasonable person would think that they're trying to buy your vote, then you should refuse golf even if it's $65 So again, the $50 is a great thing to keep in mind. But just so you know, there's a little bit more nuance than just $50 under the circumstance. You know, there's no exception that's going to get me charged with a crime. So there's a little more to it than that.

Ryan, is there a way if when I was in the federal government sorry, my voice is going again there's a way to donate it? Like if you get a gift or if you get jazz tickets or something, is there a way that you can donate it to city and you could give to staff? Is there is there some I can't foresee a

situation It's but question. I don't know of a formal way. I think you could again if you feel like it would be inappropriate for you to accept it, I think you could just call the Jay call call the Jason.

Call Jason.

Do I kinda like that?

Just funnel all the gifts to Jason. He's a new attorney.

I mean, you could say I've got, you know, I was offered these. I don't feel like I can accept them, but I'd love to make them available to city employees. I don't know of a formal way but I think you could do that.

That's appropriate.

And again Jason would have to make sure that he doesn't give them to an employee who would also who would be influenced by that. So

Ryan, I mean a reasonable person. I mean we also won't be influenced but I probably the safe thing also is that they an entity organization comes before the city for every anything just thank you no thank you

that's the safe approach for

sure yeah

if you think in the future even if you don't think it's something immediately before you but that you know that it's developer or somebody that comes before you quite often if you just want to stay free from any accusations that's the safe approach for sure.

So recusal from discussion and voting. So if there is a conflict that exists on an item that's brought before you, the council, you may be required to refrain from the discussion, abstain from voting, and you may even need to leave the room during the deliberation. I don't really know to be honest what the differences are. Maybe Ryan can clarify that for us.

Yeah, in my experience it's just that some I know of the city that I worked for previously required that their code had you have to leave you know leave the dais and can't participate in the discussion they added that as a requirement that's not a requirement of state law but that was for that specific city we don't have something like that so you could decide whether you think you know if you wanted you could stay up here and just not discuss and participate in the discussion but if you think even staying here might influence your fellow council members then you could certainly leave for that item while the discussion and the vote happen.

And is there is there any case where a council member can disclose their conflict and still vote?

Yeah. So let me get to that at at when you're done because it goes back to the one we just talked about 13 o four and the word felony. We'll talk about felonies in connection with that.

Okay. Perfect. All right. So just a couple examples that we can go over and maybe just kind of discuss or help you kind of think through some of these things. So if we have an example of account if there if this were to happen, a council member owns property next to a proposed rezoned area, should the council member disclose this at the meeting but still vote? Or should they disclose it at the meeting and recuse themselves? Any guesses?

I guess it depends on if they're going to benefit from that rezoning. I think the safest way would be to recuse. But if it if there's no clear benefit to them, then maybe they can still vote.

Yeah. I honestly don't have a great answer. And that was probably a great response to that. And if you are ever in doubt of whether you should vote or not on something certainly consult with Ryan beforehand.

Yeah, I mean, I'll just say again that's a good answer. If there's not the line of personally benefiting from using your office and again voting is a way to use your office for your own benefit but if if it's just yeah I understand this is happening next door to me but you don't own the property you're not going to benefit from however it's rezoned then I I think you could not I think you should still feel like you can vote on that one.

Okay. Next example, a council member's spouse works for a developer on an item before the council. Should you disclose it during the meeting but still vote or disclose during the meeting and recuse?

I think you should disclose and recuse because you're gonna benefit financially or not benefit financially as an employee of that development.

I like that answer do you have anything to add on that one?

So

hypothetically because we had really close to the same scenario where a former council member said that their spouse worked for this company but that didn't affect their judgment and so they were gonna vote anyway And I it sent me into a panic because that was great evidence that maybe a crime had just been committed. K? So, yes. Again, you you identified the line. Right?

If that vote could somehow benefit you personally, whether it's you directly or through your spouse, that should be disclosed and absolutely you need to recuse yourself from that vote. Just so nobody can make the allegation again that you used your public office in to benefit you personally either economically or any other you know some benefit derived from that vote you just want to stay away from that completely so.

By the way chat GPT helped me come up with these examples so I didn't intend none of them are intended It's to be really close from I to

home on that one.

Maybe it's a common one. It was yeah, this was chat GP generated. Okay, the next one, a city employee helps review bids from a company they own stock in. Should they be allowed to participate in that review, not allowed to participate or can they participate if it's disclosed? So this is more dealing with like a city employee situation rather than council.

So what is their, what is their, when they're reviewing the bids are they making decisions yes or no? What They is their

would have inputs on the decision. They may not make the official decision but they would have, they would provide input and feedback.

I mean they should for sure disclose.

You're you're talking ethical, ethically here, Not necessarily legal requirements, Yep.

Uh-huh.

Okay. And I guess I'm with Ryan. I mean, they're safe than sorry, right? Just it I would not participate in that if it was me. Yeah. And then it's yeah. I I I don't know. We all have like four zero one ks. It's like I don't know where their stock is.

That's too that's too remote. This is another really good one because the the statute itself would say you just need to disclose that. It's a bit it's an interest. What's the what's the an investment creating a conflict of interest with your duties. So under that statute, you just have to disclose. But then again, if you're involved in it in such a way that recommending which bidder to approve could then benefit you personally then you ought to stay out of that decision you ought to remove yourself from the bid review process altogether.

Yeah and our that's what our department heads would do as well or the employee should just well employees are also required to submit conflicts of interest statements and so yeah a department head would not have an employee on a committee or a review committee for bids if that employee had financial or personal interest. Okay.

Heather do have a comment?

Oh always think it's interesting because you're now saying that this bid is going to change the stock market too. And and then too, like, how much of a mutual fund do you own? Do you own, you know, you own a 1,000,000 of this mutual fund, 10% of it's in TI. So, you know, yeah, it's a Yeah. It's an interesting question. Well I I agree with you. Like, I'd just rather step out of the the vote than to to mess around with something like that. But it's something I think we've ever really dove into of thinking that that's going to your bids now influencing the volatility of the stock.

For publicly traded companies it's probably not much of an issue because you own such a miniscule. So I think this probably has I don't know again chat GPT probably came up with the word stock but if you had an ownership interest right like

yeah like you had a major share in it I I know people who are be like oh I've always got to buy Apple because I've got a 100 shares of it so I'm gonna you know if I don't get my Apple iPhone, I'm not affecting my I don't think it's like that.

You and four family members might have a closely held corporation that their company wants to submit a bid. That to

me is very

different than what we're okay.

I take the word stock in this example and then apply it to anything that you have business interest in that with the company that wants to make a proposal or And something like

I if I if

I remember right too, the state has clarified too on your conflict of interest forms because it asks you if you have any I don't remember it uses the word stock.

It does. It doesn't count ETFs or mutual funds but specific companies and it needs to be over 5,000 Yeah.

Let's see. Yeah, just municipal officers or off yeah, officers, I meant to say there must not use their position for personal gain. So an example, a city council member asked the planning department of Fast Track a permit for their family or friend or if the council member pressures staff to award a contract to a friend's company those could be considered personal gains even though it's not a financial gain. It could kind of be a personal gain. So just something else to just to consider and think about before you're you're making decisions.

Okay. Another example. Oh, that's the same one. Never mind. Okay. A council member meets with applicants and or residents before a council meeting. Is this a violation of the Ethics Act? I hope not. So some like the the Planning Commission is really they have specific bylaws and it might even be in our city code that refrains them from talking to developers or residents about issues or amongst themselves too. So city council that wouldn't be a violation.

What could be maybe we can discuss best practices instead. I know one training that I went to, it was suggested that, you know, council members are going to meet with residents and, you know, developers before meetings. It just it just is. It happens. But the kind of the advice or direction that was given to me in this training is that it's probably best for for you for the council to disclose that during the meeting in which you're voting on that.

And so, you know, saying like I met with the developer beforehand and this is what we talked about, that seems to be a good approach. Or the same can go with citizens if you're meeting with residents and stuff before a meeting that you're going to be voting on just as you're having the discussion, you know, with the council just stating that you you met with residents and these were these were their concerns. So that's that's one approach. You could also take the approach of you don't want to meet at all with with a developer before the meeting or you don't want to meet with any citizens or residents or you tell the residents if they approach you with a concern you tell them come to the City council meeting instead. So there's just kind of a wide range that I think is kind of an individual choice on how you want to approach it.

Yeah, Mr.

Mayor, if I may. I felt very limited when I wasn't able to engage. I understand why we do it on the Planning Commission that way but I would just really encourage everyone to engage, because it's one of the things I'm very excited about now being on the council is having that opportunity and I, have no problem disclosing the conversations in a meeting but I just think there's so much value there to engage at that level prior to making the decision.

Disclosing it just because the public open meeting is to deliberate in front of the public so they can see, you know, how the decisions are made and you can't get all the information in their two or three minute, you know, time. But I do I do like and my policy is I'll meet with anybody who asks, you know, developers or residents or whatever but I do like the idea of being able to present what was discussed in those meetings.

Hey, I have I have a question about that. Let's pretend that I meet with someone or two of us do because we can and then we want to kind of get in get everyone else's on the same page kind of and say hey we met with so and so this is you know prior to the council meeting. Can we send out, can I send out an email to the whole council and say this is what can I send out like a voice memo, know like how know how does that work?

Yeah, we'll cover this on the open meetings training and I better verify that it's still there. There's this really weird exception to the Open Meetings Act. Hopefully there are no state representatives listening to this, but I imagine they probably carved it out for themselves. But it's blanket to any government official. You can basically do that electronically. Not

from

the dais, so you couldn't be texting each other in a public meeting. But outside of a public meeting, you can exchange that kind of information electronically so by email by text so again let me make sure that it's still in the code but it's it's a very strange exception to what you would normally expect from the open meetings Act.

But then we just can't really respond because we can't have like a discussion about it but we can inform each other like that I'm question

It doesn't really put parameters on it. Do I think it's a good practice? Absolutely not because you could definitely violate the spirit of Open Meetings Act by having all of these kind of discussions outside of the public view. So again my job in a couple weeks will be to tell you what the exception is and then you'll have to govern yourselves as to making sure that you're complying with the spirit of the act.

Yeah, well I was talking to someone from other, I've been looking at other councils and how they do things and someone gave me that idea that they just, if there's an issue that's important to them they email it out to everyone and then they speak to them individually say like hey after they've had time to read it like what do you think about this? I don't know anyways and that seems like a better way than having I guess an email discussion or something with all people on the same email chain because then it's not

One on one would certainly again be safer. It's a safe harbor for you to have conversations one on one than for all five of you or six of you to be having an electronic discussion that's outside of the public view.

I would just add Mr. Mayor that I think there's a difference between sharing information, informational exchange versus discussion. So if I come across something that I think the whole council should see, I think it would be a good practice to pass that along through an email or a text but not expect a response or a discussion.

That's a good point. I guess the only other thing I'll add is just remember that grandma and the Open Meetings Act are two separate acts. So you may be able to have an information sharing thing electronically that doesn't violate the open meetings act but it's still subject to a grammar request.

With this to maybe just meeting with staff before council meetings and such or asking staff questions. I know that staff is very appreciative if you can reach out to Jason before council meetings if you have questions that can be directed at staff. And then that way the staff is prepared to answer those questions. And if you find that your questions kind of are relevant to your decision or discussion, then certainly I would certainly bring that up during the meeting that, you know, you had this discussion with staff and, you know, this is what you talked about. And you may find that it's irrelevant to your decision but that's I think that yeah staff just we just want to be prepared to answer your questions as much as possible and sometimes it's it's hard to do that and of course during the meeting questions are gonna come up obviously that are that you're not gonna know beforehand obviously but anytime that you can provide those questions to Jason it's helpful

in my opinion that goes back to for us having all the information as far in advance as possible so if we can have it a week in advance and have all of it not just the agenda then we can digest it then we can ask the people the proper questions instead of the day of we don't have information or six p. M. Or whatever it is so.

Sure Mr. Mayor real quick on that point if I may yeah I think that's just something that we're going to just have to get staff used to do and we're committed to do that. So, we'll we'll get that out sooner. Now, I will say this, there may be items that that we need to put on on a twenty four hour notice and we'll try and keep those to a minimum but but that will happen very infrequently. So.

We really don't, yeah, it's not good practice to amend the agenda either like we just kind of save those amended agendas for just like emergencies and yeah, we'll we'll try. We'll, yeah, we'll try this out. Okay. Violations, I guess Ryan this is kind of your your chance to add anything that we haven't already discussed but violations can result in.

To scare them? Yes.

So for most of these, you know, the investment what were some of the others that you know it's a business that the city regulates or something like that. The penalty for not disclosing is potential removal from office. But the reason I want to go back to that 13 o four, you know, using your public office to benefit you personally, is because depending on the amount, it could be as serious as a second degree felony, which in the state of Utah is one to fifteen years in the Utah State Prison. So and I think that's where, again, giving this previous council member the benefit of the doubt, that they thought disclosure was the important thing. And so, again, they rightfully disclosed it as part of the discussion, just not realizing the second half, which is in that specific section, thirteen oh four, if then using your office benefits you personally, then you're talking criminal penalties.

The other one I think there's one that's a class A misdemeanor only. But again, the degree of the crime is not as important as let's just make sure that we don't commit any crimes. But they take it very seriously. Right? Like prison is where the really really bad people go. You don't you don't wanna go to jail either but you certainly don't wanna go to prison.

Did he scare you? And just so you know, this this particular case happened very very long ago.

Long time.

Yeah. Yep.

Okay that's yeah just some other things to consider just making sure that your decisions are fair and impartial so decisions based on facts, law, policy not personal relationships and kind of emotions or outside pressures. Like you're just, you know, looking at facts, law, and policy with your decisions. And then just, yeah, best practices for the meeting. So just the conflict of interest, if you do have one that needs to be disclosed at the very beginning of before that item is even discussed. And then clearly state your recusal and then we'll make sure that that gets documented in the meeting minutes.

And then of course as always if you're unsure, consult with Ryan before the meeting. Okay. Any questions? Okay. We'll have more fun trainings with Ryan's Open Meetings Act training in a couple weeks.

Ryan will be ready, I'm sure. So, I believe that's that's the end until 06:00. So, we'll adjourn this meeting till 06:00 when we'll return to this room for the ceremonial oath of office administered to myself, Councilman Harrison, and Councilwoman Freeman. So, we'll adjourn till 06:00. Yes, do you have a comment?

Do we move for a recess? I'd like to move for a recess.

I'll second that.

Recess is granted. See you at six.

You a gotta vote.

Oh, revoting? Heather? Yes. James? Rachel?

Yes. Michelle? Very seriously. Oh,

Oh, we just did.

Sorry. The mayor. I don't know.

I was like, are we adjourned?

I was really