Board of Zoning Appeals - Regular Meeting

Today is July 24th, 2026. The Lawrence Board of Zoning Appeals is called to order at this time. I need a motion and a second for the approval of the minutes from June 16, 2016. So moved. I need a second.

So moved.

All those in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Those opposed, nay. Minute's stand is written. If you've not done so, please sign in the back of the room. And anyone wishing to speak tonight, please stand and raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Answer with I do. I do. Thank you. Do we have any special requests tonight, continuance, withdrawals, or waivers? So at this time, the unfinished business from last month was 26 LSV0911711 Fox Road, partial 4046907, City of Lawrence. Request the variance of development standard of the City of Indianapolis sign ordinance, table 744-906-1C, to permit the installation of a new pylon sign The proposed sign will be 161 feet from the existing integrated center sign. 300 feet is required. Is there anybody here for this petition? Good evening, sir.

Good evening. My name is Mark Bastin and I was here before in discussing the pylon sign that we wish to have on site and we have since added information about a monument sign as a way to still hold a Pricer for the shell location in the designated area that we have on the property So with that This is not about the additional sign as much as it is a case of the strict application of the table that creates a practical difficulty for an approved fuel center use. The fuel station was approved and constructed as part of this development, unlike any other tenant within the integrated center. A fuel station relies on communicating real-time fuel pricing to motorists approaching the site. The practical difficulty is not the fuel station itself, The practical difficulty is that existing integrated center sign occupies the location that would otherwise allow a compliant fuel price identification while the ordinance prohibits another freestanding sign within 300 feet. As a result, the only option available to the fuel station is the existing tenant panel system, which is incapable of providing pricing visibility comparable to a typical fuel center. Therefore, the existing integrated center sign and the 300 foot separation requirement, when applied to this approved fuel station, create the practical difficulty. The response of the staff report The property lacks unusual topography, lot shape, or excess limitations. And I agree, however, the request is not based on topography or lot shape. The practical difficulty arises because this particular use is a fuel station. And because a pre-existing integrated center sign prevents placement of a compliant fuel price monument under the three foot separation standard, The difficulty is created by the ordinance application to the site and the use combination, not by geography. So, and I want to say that, you know, I was here the last time. I didn't have visuals. I've been involved with variances within Indy.gov, and so I was a little bit, you know, not thinking in terms of visuals at that point when I was here before, but I do have some If I may, just pass these out to allow them to see them. I put the monument sign elevation drawing in the front of it along with the site plan that's printed on the reverse side of that. And then, because I know we spoke about visuals before, not really seeing what was there and present, I printed out some simple photos that I took. And in the first photo after the rendering, you'll see the tenant panel sign that is in the background of the lot. And I'm actually standing in the location where the monument sign would be placed. So that is the distance that I think it's being called 161 feet. I kind of walked it off. I feel like it's slightly longer than that, probably closer to 190. But regardless, it's still not beyond the 300. So I understand the concern on that. So then going from that photo showing the tenant panel sign, and I want you to make note that that new business in there that's in the old marsh, they've occupied the largest tenant panel in that sign. So what I'm left with is a tenant panel that is basically a 14-inch viewing window, tall, by about 49 inches wide for me to place a pricer in that which equates to an eight inch pricer that's as small as we can go with a digital pricer and that's as large as that will fit into that unit given the height of it and everything so and there's only one tenant panel open in that sign and so that really creates quite a visual because if you can see I know it's not crisp photos but you can see that it's very unlegible at that distance even if it was lit and of course if you look at the next photo forward you can turn and see the other direction on the corridor and and even though it's double the distance down the road you can see that there's a BP station down on the corner of Oakland and Fox Road and they have the traditional pricer sign like I speak of in the pylon and their pricers are 24 inches in height and they've got three of them and so with the Layout that I have on the monument sign. I've got one 24 inch LED pricer and then the smaller 12 inch for the diesel which is still there, but the idea is to have the larger pricer for the regular being the Critical part for this corridor and everyone's seeing that and having a visual to make a decision to pull in or not Obviously we spoke before This is all part of people's decision-making on whether they're going to stop there or drive on by looking at the price, and those prices change throughout the week. I'm sure you've seen those change from weekend to weekday, especially a lot recently. So then going through the photos quickly you'll see that I'm kind of giving you an advantage point from where the traffic would be flowing towards the fuel center and We would be between the tree and the fuel canopy with a monument sign there, which would create a much better visual for people to make a decision and to provide something that is not such a demeaning sign as what would be in the tenant panel sign to give us that opportunity for having something that is not a practical difficulty. and then again the photo beyond that just shows you as I get closer to the BP side in just making an example of the corridor because the corridor is not really filled with a lot of signage and based on all that's there presently there really isn't anybody else that's going to be requesting additional signs like I am for this shell station because nobody else has the need like we do in present with a fuel center sign like this, which is also why we downgraded to the monument sign in hopes that we would share in a mutual compromise of things to create this opportunity for this and not see it as a complete practical difficulty for that. So I gave you some additional photos, one just showing how large the pricers were for the BP. That's a good example of what would normally be if this was not an integrated center, then my pylon sign would have passed all reasonable issues. Without the integrated center and that 300-foot rule, we would have probably been able to get a pylon approved. We're okay with the monument sign. We just don't feel like that tenor panel sign with an 8-inch visual is going to create anything other than a difficulty that we're explaining. And you can see the close-ups of the tenor panel sign with the one blank space that we're talking. And I showed how I'd measure those just to give you an example that it's a 14-inch viewing window. And then also I wanted to point out the fact that I've got two tenant panel signs, one over here and one down there, but they're both not lit. I was there well after dark, it was 9.30 at night, still not lit. So by having their price sign in the monument, they control the maintenance of it, they control the function of it, and it means that they're going to have full use of it and full benefit of it, whereas with these tenant panel signs and being predominantly for retail that might even be closed at that time of night, you know? They might close at 9 or they may close earlier so depending on the retail establishment So this is very much different than any other situation that we would run into And that's why that with this in mind, you know the fact is is the tenant panel sign and the 300 foot Separation standard is in in fact the practical difficulty here. So And again, just to touch on it, it's not a real cluttered corridor. It ends on Oak Landon and into the Holy Cross Lutheran Church. then going the other direction it's going more towards residential so there's not a lot there visually that's going to create a lot of clutter even with our monument sign so I feel like it's going to one benefit everybody for making better decisions especially if they're new to the area but two it's not going to be visual clutter it will be something that

will be well represented and desired as well as you know can be expected so okay it has been 10 minutes i'm sorry it has been 10 minutes you've got 10 minutes for your presentation does the board have any questions at this time yes i wanted to pivot really quickly from visual clutter to safety would you agree that you're between two schools

yes i know there's a school and they have a monument sign with the led digital display over at the school and are you but you agree that your shell station is between amy beverlynd and the holy cross school right and i don't know are you from this area No, I'm from the south side.

Okay. Because there's a safety history with Amy Beverland that you may not be aware of, that the principal was killed in a vehicle accident. And so when we talk about clutter and we talk about signage, and signage says, look, look, look, I see that as a safety issue. particularly in this area where we have two schools and little kids, we have a lot of activity. So I'm curious if you have put safety concerns into your analysis, because I didn't hear anything about safety.

Actually, the monument sign placement is the same setback as the tenant panel signs. So visually, traveling back and forth, it's not going to impede any visibility for auto and motorists to do that. And the sidewalks on the opposite side of the street than the Shell station, there is no sidewalk on that side. So pedestrians will be walking on the other side of the highway or the street. So I feel like that safety is always a concern and that is something that I brought up last time in that the visibility and the access to that information is critical for them making a decision when they're going one way or the other to exit to the turn lane at that other intersection over by Goodwill or if they're coming the other direction. It's just going to allow a greater safety factor having that as opposed to something really small in place of that. But it's not going to create any additional hazard in safety by being the same setback as the tenant panel sign.

But you already have a sign on the business?

No.

So the variance is to have an additional sign less than 300 feet from the original sign. Am I wrong?

That's correct. We're asking for the pricer sign to be in that location, the same location that we discussed with the pylon.

OK. And you also advertise your prices on Google and the price apps too, right?

I'm not familiar because I'm not the property owner, the station owner. I'm sure they do. I mean, social media or apps and things like that are broadly used, but that doesn't replace a lot of individuals that don't use that. There's a lot of motorists that don't use that. So the idea is having that sign placed there gives them the visual opportunity to make a decision safely to exit or not, and it also bypasses that technical difficulty in having an 8-inch pricer in that tenant panel sign. And for me, Seeing that larger sign at eye level in a vehicle versus trying to locate an 8-inch pricer elsewhere, whether it's day or night, it's going to be much safer in choosing that. And it's also... what they're accustomed to all around the country in either seeing this monument type or a pylon sign when they're looking for fuel center pricing.

Well, and you agree that people have like the Shell rewards cards, so sometimes there's just customer loyalty as well. Do you agree with that?

Yeah, but I'm not understanding where you're going with this as far as safety is concerned.

Why couldn't it not be put on the awning, the overlay, the price up there instead of on the ground?

Shell does not allow pricers to be on the canopy. That is a state or a regulation nationwide for shell locations. And believe me, that would be a consideration if it wasn't different than most. But there again, It's really in the monument sign even as opposed to the pylon sign. It's creating that safety standard and ability to make a decision and it's not creating the practical difficulty that we're really standing on as far as having to be in a tenant panel sign that is So it's not an easy visual. I mean, most people driving to a location like that, they're looking at a tenant penalty sign, and they're not really able to read all of it easily.

I understand what you're saying, but I also understand what she's saying. You've got a school. You've got buses. There is a lot of traffic up there, and there is a lot of trouble up there with Amy Beverly and all the cars and all the different schools. It's a very busy area.

It's a very busy area. It's two schools because of Lutheran schools.

Does the board have any other questions at this time? Go ahead.

Thank you. I was confused as well because you kept saying we, but you are not affiliated with the business, the gas station, right?

I am the installer for the signage.

Okay. So the owner of the gas station, does that owner also own the property, the real estate on which it sits?

No.

So he's renting, did he build it or you go as a franchisee of Shell, you go in there, let Shell come in and build it or how does that work?

it's a it's a partnership between the oil company and the store owner and that's how it is all across the country because you know it takes a joint effort to be able to create the location and supply the fuel and so yeah it's

OK. So then that's my concern is because when he bought the parcel, he saw that main sign that was sitting there. It's easy to see. It's not going to accommodate the kind of signage you're talking about needing to have now. And they didn't address it. They didn't address it, apparently, with the property owner. Shell didn't make an issue of it. So I'm trying to figure out how we have gotten to this point when it could have been addressed early on and a solution found.

Somebody approved building permits.

Well, they approved the building permits, but the owner.

Knowing that it was a fuel center is my point.

Okay, yeah, Shell did. But I mean, they could have, when they were like scouting locations and everything. Have you talked to the owner of the property to see if they could, and I don't know, staff would have to address it, but to see if there's any way they could take the existing sign and maybe work within that, give you a little bit more space, do something that would give you more space?

That really wasn't anything that I'm involved in and it hasn't been discussed because every tenant in there is, and oftentimes those tenant panels are part of their lease. So they have an obligation to hold that space for those tenants. I don't know the particulars of that tenant panel sign. My job is to present the signage and request approval of the signage. But as far as what was brought up from the landowner and the tenant panel signs, I have no involvement in that. So I don't have a lot of answers for you in that regard.

I'm just kind of amazed. that this issue wasn't addressed when they were looking at leasing this property and developing this property. Because obviously, the sign with the price is pretty important for a gas station. I drive down the street, and especially when you've got a BP down there, who has the cheaper price? If it's a penny or two pennies in this day and age, I want to stay. So that's why I don't understand it. I don't know whether it might have been done intentionally and then come back and ask for forgiveness from the city. i don't know whether they you know i i just don't know what what's happening here but it does look like this is being placed on a corner am i right the sign The new sign?

On the corner of their lot, yes.

OK, on the corner, which is a better signage position than being placed on the main sign, which sits in the middle front of the parcel. So if you can get the corner, then you've got two directional traffic. So again, and it's not, I realize you were here doing your job and everything.

so i know but i'm just i don't know whether somebody tried to maybe game the system a bit again it's it's the it's the size of the tenant panel that restricts this in such a way that becomes a safety issue for visibility as well as just overall function for a fuel center that was approved to build there and we're you know trying to make a compromise from the pylon sign to the monument to appease everyone

you've done a nice job in the presentation tonight by the way so don't i don't i think renee will have some answers i have some questions for her in reference to the sign so i was just trying to play him a little compliment so no you're right i i agree with what thank you very much that is a big part yeah i was just coming here because we were here the last time the issue was the pylon sign yes the last time and then you came back with the uh with

with this sign here versus that, and trying to find some middle ground. And I know I'm like, too, when I travel, I'm used to looking for the pipeline sign, because particularly in this day's markets, we're all trying to find the best price right. And we talked about integrated signs would be ideal, but in this sign, there's really no space on there. It's more of a hazard trying to find the gas price, an integrated sign versus a monument versus the pipeline. So I thank you for what you presented today. And my children go to Amon Belkland, so I get that traffic. It's a challenge there. So I understand that piece of it. Absolutely. If I had to choose, I wouldn't want an integrated piece there. We can argue about whether or not we need another gas station there, but that's another thing.

And that's why I feel like the monument sign with the pricer in that size in the location would actually improve safety in the corridor than having it in the tenant panel sign. because it's going to be more recognizable and allow people to be focused on their driving and not searching for anything like that. Or, I mean, maybe we've all done this. You know, you drive by some, oh, I was meant to turn there. And I missed it. And that's what we're trying to avoid with having that monument sign in place of the 8-inch digit in the tenant panel sign. We want to make sure that safety is part of this equation. It's not anything to be overlooked, for sure. And that's why I feel like approving the monument would improve that, not deplete any safety standard. Yeah.

I wanted to make sure to call your attention, though, to the unique safety issue in that specific area.

I'm sorry.

I wanted to at least point out the unique safety, the history.

I appreciate that. Yeah, thank you. No, and I was, you know, looking at the corridor and everything. I mean, noticing the schools, obviously, it's very important.

Any other questions at this time? Thank you, sir.

Thank you.

Are there any remonstrators for or against the petition? Seeing that there's none, we will hear from the city of Lawrence.

Good evening. Renee Raffalo, Director of Public Works. We were here last month and we talked about the big pylon sign and that it was only going to be 161 feet from the existing integrated center sign. I want to address a couple of issues that Mark brought up about the BP sign that's on the corner on the opposite corner. That's city of Indianapolis. That's a boundary. We're the south side and he's the north side. And that BP gas station is not in an integrated center. An integrated center is designed to have one sign to avoid clutter. That's the whole purpose of it. The code specifically says that you have to have a 300 foot separation between the signs to avoid that visual clutter. We spent a bunch of money putting in a pedestrian, a safe pedestrian bridge. We spent millions of dollars to put that bridge in so that we could get the kids from the neighborhood to Emmy Beverly and to Holy Cross safely. And you're right, Faith, having visual clutter in that school area is a big concern of ours. They say BP doesn't allow the signs on their fueling canopies. Why? Walmart does it. Sam's Club does it. There's always cars in their parking lot. Nobody's skipping their parking lot. It's based on pricing. And I agree, putting the fueling and the integrated center sign probably isn't a good idea, but they didn't even ask the property owner, which they leased this lot from, to relocate that sign. Goodwill doesn't have a freestanding sign. They've got one on their building. Put your sign on your canopy. There is a solution that does not involve going against the standards that have been established for the safety of our community. This new sign is better. It's a monument sign. It is a good compromise if you feel that a sign within 160 feet of another sign is an appropriate variance to make. We're not going to make a recommendation on that. We're going to lay that up into the very capable hands of the board. I just want to point out there are other solutions that maybe weren't considered.

My question to you would be, my favorite thing is signs. The brightness, you know, we have a standard here in Lawrence that we have asked all

This isn't really considered an EVMS, which is what we have, all those commitments that we've done for the last 10, 15 years, however long it's been now. So that wouldn't really, they can adjust the brightness on this sign too, on the monument sign or the pole sign or the pylon sign, sorry. Karen, you had a question about during the building process Before this project was ever released for construction, we, me, the mayor, our economic development, our chief of staff, met with the owner of this business and told him this was not an appropriate place for a gas station. That it was not going to work in this space. We, zoning allows the gas station. Zoning allows, it's a C4 use. You're allowed to have a gas station in a C4 use. They insisted that this is where they wanted the gas station. The sign usually isn't part of your building plan and your site plan. That comes later in the project. When they applied for it, it was denied. It's not within 300, it's not 300 feet away. It isn't allowed. So I feel like, yes, They thought, oh, well, we'll just do it and ask for forgiveness or ask for an exception to the rules, knowing that the development standards, we're just not going to allow this from the very beginning. So I appreciate the time. And I am absolutely here to answer any questions you may have in addition to that. But we're not comfortable recommending approval of this.

Does the board have any questions for us? Thank you, Renee.

Thank you.

Petitioner, do you have any further comments? You get five minutes.

I can't speak on behalf of the owner or the property owner in their conversation because I was not privileged any of that information. So I'm here today to present the monument in such a way that does in fact provide safety and a compromise for whatever reason that shell does not allow in its shell that does not allow canopy pricers it's just their corporate standard that they don't do that so therefore i have limited things to work with. And so I presented the monument to show that it could be in place, not be an extreme risk for anyone, and to hopefully avoid people making quick decisions in driving that corridor so if we're going to talk about safety we need to consider you know people that are driving too but obviously with what is in place the uh and and i will say um I have been in variance meetings with Indy, who has the property across the street. I don't know anything about that property on Elgai Stations over there. They have two monument signs. They have two tenant panel signs. and then of course the BP is on the corner so maybe they're not part of an integrated center I don't know but in another property I had the same situation where we were allowed a BP pylon sign on a property that was an integrated center and we had two signs so we added the third sign a little different geography there but still it was permitted and I don't feel like there's any more you know lack of safety in that regard because of that now this being a monument sign we've taken that down it's much smaller But it's still a visual that will assist in helping everyone make safe decisions in utilizing the corridor. And the fact that the fuel center's there, that's why I'm here.

OK, thank you. The board have any questions for the petitioner? No. OK, thank you. Any remonstrators? Okay, the board now will be voting on 26 LSV0911711 Fox Road. Request of areas of development standard of the city of Indianapolis signed ordinance to permit the installation of a new pylon sign. The proposed sign will be 161 feet from the existing integrated center sign, 300 feet required. Can you please clarify that we're approving for a line I will. Let me correct it. It's to permit for a monument sign instead of a sign. The board has voted four to deny and one to grant. The petition has been denied. We'll go on to new business. 26 LUV 11, 6420 Oakland and Road. Request a variance of use of table to permit an art gallery slash studio. The property is zone D5 where such use is permitted only in a C1 zoning district. Who's here to? Please step up to the mic. State your name, address.

Good evening. Good evening. My name is Alice Battis, and I reside at 11425 Kayak Court, Indianapolis. Thank you for your time this evening. I appreciate this opportunity to request this variance so that I may open up a art gallery and art studio. This is my first time making a presentation, so excuse my nervousness or inexperience. My proposed use of this art studio and gallery, I'm hoping for the opportunity for art appreciation, inspiring growth, and creativity for the individual but also for Lawrence, the greater community as a whole. Primarily, my initial focus will be on the studio to be a 3D and a 2D art, meaning sculptural and functional ceramic art, oil and watercolor paintings, paper and drawings. I have studied art all of my education through elementary and through secondary college and after post-college. I've studied nationally and internationally. I've taught ceramics at the Indianapolis Art Center for over 20 years, and I've taken numerous classes at the Art Center for painting and various other glass, other medium as well. In addition, I've also traveled the country going to different ceramic workshops. and conferences. My mission, hopefully, and vision, is to expand it to include other mediums, such as jewelry, fabrics, woodworking, and mixed media exhibits. And as well, to eventually offer private lessons and small group workshops in the future. But initially, I just want to get the studio up and running so that we can appreciate hopefully art and hopefully have a chance to give back and inspire others by enhancing and serving the city of Lawrence through art, promoting general art enjoyment and education. So this is my reason to be here and asking for this variance. Thank you.

I have a question. So I looked on the map and I see the location. Yes. And I'm trying to remember what business was in there before.

Oh, OK. I would like you. It's like, OK, I know this sounds.

So I know this area very well. Yeah, the site map shows that directly across the street is the paper and palette studio art gallery and art classes. So I was thinking that as far as the street and the businesses there along, it would further enhance, hopefully, that experience of offering art education and art enjoyment for the community.

Are you leasing? Are you buying? Purchasing. You're purchasing. Okay.

I currently have a home studio up at Feather Cove, too, but I want to expand to it, broaden it out to when COVID hit, the Indianapolis Arts Center had to close, like so many other places. was not able to teach the semester of 2020, the spring semester. Plus with my mom's failing health, I had taken myself off of the semester schedule. And then when COVID happened and everything re-transitioned and everything changed, as you know, to some degree, I did not resume teaching and have been trying to collect myself through the grief. And now I'm ready. It's been several years since my mom passed and my dad and my mother-in-law.

What will your business hours be?

What kind of traffic are you looking at?

Initially, I'm not looking at much traffic at all. It'd be more of a gathering for former students to get reacquainted. This obviously is not the broad ripple area, so I'm not sure where the students would be drawing from from my former classes. But initially, I would be looking at very similar to the hours at the well-beings, Melissa's herbalist building, which is right beside, and also Tammy's has limited hours as well, Tam's Cafe. So I'd be looking at very few hours initially, just to kind of allow myself first to get the studio up and running, but it probably, it would be in tandem with what their hours would be, which would be a couple of hours, maybe a four-hour time slot, a couple of days a week, hopefully getting to like a first Friday, where there'd be a gallery opening, and I'm hoping to get not just national artists, but known artists, maybe internationally, to come and exhibit, do art talks, kind of like a traveling book show, book tour, but an artist tour, where they show their work and they talk about their wares. But that would be down the road, so initially my actual opening hours would be very limited to maybe less than say about six hours in the first few months until I get going. And then when I can get the studio operating, I can add classes. And then a class typically is about a three hour session. You could have as many as 12 in a classroom for hand building. If it's ceramics, maybe six to 10 people if it's a painting class. So it really depends. but I don't see in the immediate future that there would be more than say half a dozen people a couple of times a week that's what I'm seeing okay thank you

So what exact times are we thinking?

Usually the afternoon classes are the more popular. But then, say for example, I taught at the art center from 9 to 12. But I'm thinking more of a 1 to 4, and with the gallery opening being more like 4 to 8, or at least try to catch that evening hour where people are commuting and oh maybe i'll stop in here see what's new so that would be there would not necessarily be late hours the art center at in broad ripple did have classes until 10 o'clock or 9 30 i think it was but i'm not i'm a little old i'm not going to be scheduling those kind of hours for myself nor do i see me hiring any teachers at this time So maybe the weekends would be afternoons or some mornings for people who are employed, but really I'm looking more for the mid-afternoon to early evening. Okay.

And then as far as your private lessons, would those kind of be around the same time, or how would that work?

That I think would depend if there are a lot of students who don't have time because of sports and they would need a flexible schedule, then because of one-on-one, I can allow a little bit more flexibility. And you don't usually need as big of a time slot for a one-on-one.

And also, you refer to yourself as old. You're not old. You're just wise. I just wanted to throw that in there.

A little bit of experience there. Thank you. Thank you. Go ahead.

So I don't see in here, how many parking spaces come with this building? 12. Okay, 12, and you will own those yourself? Yes, that's part of the property. And your, I mean, I can't wait to see your art store. I love art. I have a house filled with art, all kinds of media.

I think that's one reason my husband's cheering this on, because he wants to get it out of our house. Every time I came back from a conference or a meeting, I came back with, not another piece of art. So thank you for that. I'm excited to share the art that I see. I think ceramic art is greatly underappreciated, or at least it doesn't have the opportunity. You do see pottery a lot, but this is sculpture. We're talking, oh, maybe lamps, fountains, and figurative work, wall hangings. Sculptural art, especially ceramic art, just isn't seen as much as 2D painting art. For one, there's more wall space than there usually is floor space in a house. So you do see a lot more 2D art. That's why I like to feature both. But hopefully, I will include jewelry and fabrics, like felting and other things, just because I like it all. I do it all.

Any other questions?

I guess just to add the historical context, this small stretch basically between, well, it was the CVS, now it's the Dollar Tree. Between there and the railroad track, like the railroad park, historically we've granted a lot of variances in that area because it's a uniquely shaped parcel and it's a unique neighborhood, so there's a lot of unique things. I mean, I would almost wonder if this area should get rezoned at some point.

My concern would be she didn't present a business plan so we don't have any idea the traffic and hours and because normally on variances we always set it up so that.

And I don't know but could we have continued this. Yes. So that she can meet with our staff and work out that.

You understand what she's talking about? I'd be happy to offer a business plan. I did not have one presented because at this point I still need to consider the space and figure out what size class could be where. I'm thinking the two different mediums being the painting and ceramic being the principal ones. So until I got into the property and see how big it is, then I would know, okay, I can have a class of two, I can have a class of four or six. But given my experience, I know I'm not planning on working a lot of hours myself. And I've been an entrepreneur for 45 years. My husband and I, Dave, had a business on Shadeland Avenue for 45 years, and we just sold it a year ago. So I'm not really wanting to get in the saddle and commit to a huge block of, say, teaching seven days a week. Right. So that's why I don't really have a business plan.

But I think if you met with Renee and the city, you can go like, the building will be open from like 8 to 8, or noon to 8, or just some type of, we have an idea of, what's going to be there and so does the community so that we can be consistent and I believe all the variances, Renee am I correct, that have had some kind of stipulation on them. I believe Heather you had, okay. Step up to the mic. Were you sworn in?

Okay. it's my understanding I think her hours are going to be less than mine and I was Monday through Saturday at my height of on the road for 22 years and I do believe we did not interfere with the traffic flow and I would have four hairdressers including myself And each of us would have a client in there. So we have eight people. And it worked out pretty darn nicely. And I know Tam across the street has been utilizing Morco's parking spaces for some of her employees. So I think everybody in the area, they all kind of work together. Right. But we like to just have a business plan. Exactly. And I have... love being on oakland and road my vision 22 years ago was to see it become the kind of community that is coming my only problem is that i'm going to leave and she's going to be there and now i want to be there too with her so i think her it's her traffic pattern is probably not going to be all that uh obtrusive to the other community that's going on. I've been on that road for I don't know how many years. I can tell you the schedule. I can tell you when the buses come. I know when my clients are going to run late because the train tracks are backed up. So it's been a pleasure to be on the road and I love watching the little things come along. I don't know why my building was never zoned for C1 usage when everything around it is either already zoned or

the herbalist on the south side of me and I'm gonna say I feel bad that I don't know if she got a variance to open her shop up there I had a feeling yeah I've just not I've got a lot of wisdom on the board so in regards to the operating hours and when I spoke to Melissa and I saw her hours that's what I was thinking of doing where she has by appointment for like the gallery. And we have by appointment times for people who couldn't make this few select hours. I think she's three days a week.

I'm the one that's there in the evening time. I start at noon and I'll work till eight o'clock at night. And then Tuesdays and Thursdays, I start at nine in the morning and work till three or four o'clock in the afternoon. So my hours have been very, and everybody's left me because of COVID and retirement and all this stuff. So I figured it was time for me to pack up and,

okay thank you I have a question

If a continuance is granted, how long does a petitioner have to bring those materials to? To the next meeting. To the next meeting?

Okay. Or she can ask for a continuance. Again, anybody can make a motion, need a second. We can make it with notice or without notice. Usually with notice is best in case someone couldn't be here or is here and not going to speak tonight.

I wanted to catch her before she left the mic. So do you have a variance so your hair salon can be operating? Yes, I have October or August 7th of 2007. And that's for what level of use is your variance for? I think it is C1.

Renee could speak to that. Okay.

You know what? My husband sent me the email.

We have to go to downtown to verify a variance because Lauren's lost her.

Heather, you need to step up and be on the mic.

Yes, we have had a variance. We had to have permits to have the parking lot put in. So we've had it for about 18 years, I guess. And I can get copies of that if you need it. No, she can just work with the city of Lawrence, Renee, and then... Well, when we found out that we had to go downtown to get our variants, Lawrence told us, I forget the girl's name in the office, that I didn't have a variant. I had been working with one, and we had. It's been verified. I found it. Okay, thank you.

I have one question. I mean, has the sale already gone through or is the sale contingent on this variance? It's contingent. On the variance. See, because I wonder if we could give...

Can you say I'll wait another month? I'm sorry.

10 days.

We're not meeting in 10 days.

Or do you have a closing date for the sale? Yes, the 28th. Of what?

The 28th of July. Oh. Next week. Next Tuesday.

Let's hear from the city of Lawrence.

But you need the variance to close on the property or no?

That was a contingent on the purchase agreement.

Is there any demonstrators for or against the petitioner? Renee?

Thank you.

No, ma'am. Just have a seat. You can come back up in a minute.

Renee Rathlow, Director of Public Works. This property is currently zone D5, and the use proposed is only allowed in a C1. However, we feel that this use does fit into the comprehensive plan and the vision that the city has for this corridor. As you stated earlier from CVS, Dollar Tree, all the way to the tracks. There's a lot of mixed use in there, a lot of walkable businesses. And that is the vision. It's a village use is what they reference it. And our gallery consistent with that village mixed use they're usually considered a low impact commercial use generate generate limited traffic noise and outdoor activities compared to other uses so we don't feel it'll be much more of an impact than what hairdos was It is expected to operate primarily during normal business hours with limited customer traffic. It doesn't involve manufacturing, outdoor storage, heavy equipment, or activities that would create or cause excessive noise, orders, lighting, or other typical impacts associated with a more typical C1 use. I'm comfortable recommending approval without a business plan just because of the typical hours for an art studio or a gallery, or even if she were to do education, those hours aren't gonna be 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock at night, where it's making a big impact on a neighborhood. And there's not a lot of residents in this area. It is mostly business. Behind the main corridor of Oakland and Roge, you've got residences. But most of the actual structures on that stretch have converted into some type of commercial use. With that being said, though, I would recommend that we do a commitment that it be to this petitioner for this use only. And that controls it for future use if she sells it just like with other selling. the board gets to hear what the proposed use is and make a decision on if that's appropriate for our community excellent i think that would be a very appropriate response of the board to request that commitment it would be in writing it would be recorded as part of the deed of the property so

And so this has a C1 variance on this property already, so basically what we're doing. No, no. Oh, it does not?

So art gallery requires a C1. A hair salon does not. Really? Yeah.

So it can operate in a D5?

No, they had to have a variance. They had a variance back in 2007. Specifically for hairdos to operate in a dwelling. Oh, in a dwelling, okay. But it was specific to hairdos and Heather and Michael.

specifically so anybody who buys this property if they want to do something other than live in it is going to have to come before you but wouldn't that have still been a variance of the use standards even though it was a residential back in 2007 2007 so i'm just trying to figure what what what was the variant oh just for a variance of use right because it didn't fit within d5 yeah okay so you can have like a home

A hair salon. Hair salon with one booth. She has, like she said, four stylists plus herself. So it was a little more intense than a dwelling use. Were there any other questions from the board for me?

Does the board want to vote to, well, we have to hear from the petitioner. Do you have any other?

Yes, I just wanted to say regarding the business plan, I was not prepared. I was not knowing that that would be necessary. Again, I was thinking more of the private studio opening and getting it running. and then addressing it. My goal is to always have it a small group. Just because I have taught classes of 12 at the Art Center for 20 years, that's a lot of names for me to keep straight. So I'm thinking more, you know, small intimate groups, which allows for more growth for each artist, each participant. But as far as my personal use of the place, of the property, which is gorgeous, by the way, it's a gorgeous building, I hope you all can come in and see it, which I think lends to being a gallery, is for me to work on my art, and then be able to grow the business as a gallery by bringing in other artists' work. So my hours there would vary greatly, but the public would be reduced to just a few viewing hours. I hope that clears that up.

do you do you have any so it's been discussed about you entering into a commitment where this variance would go just to you and so if you go to sell the property if the new owner wants to step into your shoes they can't they have to come back to the city would you have any objection to doing that

no I do not at this time no I understand it's not a rezoning it's just a variance of use for me to use as a art gallery and studio for me and what shop what was your shop on Shadeland we were in wholesale we supplied movie theaters the popcorn and candy Indiana concession supply okay Should have brought some. Yeah. I started by selling tickets at his parents' indoor theater in Muncie, Indiana. We're from Muncie. And then we just stayed in the theater business. But I thought it was going to be temporary for me, and I was going to do art. But now is my chance after 45 years. Thank you.

Thank you. Anybody for or against it has a few minutes to speak if they want to. If not, does the board want to do a continuance to hear a business plan, or do we want to go with the commitment to this petition and use only and vote on it?

so what the board wants to do go ahead and vote okay the board will be voting on 26 and

LUV 116420 Oakland and Road request a variance of use to permit an art gallery studio and it would be the commitment would be for this petition and use only petitioner and use only

11 to you already?

I don't have 11. Did I give you 11 already?

I must have given you 11 already. I don't know. I don't think so. Mine were two. Oh, this is post.

Wait a minute.

Oh, I got different ones on this one. Nine, nine. Oh, 11, 11. Okay. Okay. What did I? Yeah, you did.

initial okay okay great and the one already did it cross nine out no that's not me that's me right there let me fix mine too so what was me it's 26 luv 11. okay okay okay so fix that one and then we're gonna make this one 11. yeah this one is for nine no this one's for 11.

I get two pins

Ma'am, the board has unanimously granted your petition and welcome to the community. The board now will hear 26 LUSV 12, 5405 North Post Road. Request a variance of use from the Fort Heron-Harrison Mastery Reuse Implementation Plan to allow a multifamily development project in an area designated for light industrial use. The project will meet the development standards outlined in the City of Lawrence Zoning Subdivision Ordinance D-8. Good evening.

Good evening. Thank you for having us here tonight. My name is Greg Mustrick, and this is my colleague, Luke Loppenberg. We're with Woda Cooper Companies. Woda Cooper Companies, we are an employee-owned company. We develop, construct, uh manage affordable housing developments we own and operate around 17 000 units and over 375 properties throughout 19 states we have developed everything from single-family subdivision multi-family three four-story buildings townhome developments and adaptive reuses of old schools and warehouses We own all of our developments and we don't sell them. So we don't come in, buy something, build it and then flip it to somebody else. We're long term property owners. So we're building our developments to a very high standard because we're going to continuously own the properties. We also look to build long-term partnerships with the city because of this to ensure that we have a good relationship with city officials and staff as we continuously operate the developments. We are here tonight in regards to our proposal for Benjamin Townhomes. Benjamin Townhomes is a 30 unit townhome development. It's two stories with 15 two bedroom units and 15 three bedroom units. Included in that design are four live work units. The development uh we'll include and i can kind of show you here and kind of go along with our partnership with the city we've been working with the city and the fort harrison reuse authority on kind of going back and forth in regards to the design of our site planning concept and so what we've come up with and working with them is putting our town homes and the community building along the roadfront along north post road and harrison park drive Our live work units are adjacent to our community building, which will be right here on the corner, and on each plank on each side by the live work units. And then the rest of the town building units will be spread throughout the development. We will have a playground, a picnic area with a grill, a fenced-in dog park. The units themselves will have open floor plans with energy efficient windows and LVT flooring. the community building itself will feature a property management office supportive service office common laundry community room and fitness center for the residents use over here we have what the property will look like on the frontage of garrison park drive and also along

north post road these are the elevations here and you can kind of see the community building and then what the live work space will look like from the exterior so this building along here will be on north coast road and you can see the live work building so that will be a little space for residency use to run as a business that will front the road again making it in that blockable area we believe it will connect through the floor throughout and this was um we were in touch with russell brown and the fourth reuse authority and they really wanted to see these web work units so we've taken that into consideration with this development here and then we've been in touch with direct unit as well in the city and He really wanted to see a commercial look on this street coming through along with other businesses there as well. So that's where we thought we could pull on these look work units along with big windows, pull up the community building on that corner as well to kind of give a dense commercial look on that frontage.

And one of the unique things with this property, too, with the history of the fort, we have a longstanding partnership with HVAC of Indiana. So we're looking to reserve at least six units for veterans and partner with HVAC to provide supportive services for those veterans if they need it. happy to answer any questions about our development or our company.

I just want to start off just by commending you all for the work you've done. I've worked with you all in other capacities and it's always been great work and thank you for the support you have for our veterans.

Yeah, thank you.

And thank them too.

Absolutely. Do you have approximate price points for these units?

I do. So we're looking at for the net rents that we have right now for the two bedroom units will range from $515 to $1400. And for the three bedroom units, we would be around $595 to $1645.

That's a big gap.

Yeah, we so we utilize the real housing tax credit program. So we want to ensure that we have different rents at different levels to be affordable to individuals with different incomes in the community.

So how many of each do you have those like the 595 and yes, so we have

So for instance, for the units that are at the for the two bedrooms, we have three of the units at the 515 level and then we have five units that will be around $1,010. And then we have seven units that will be at the 1,400 level. Those are specific for two bedroom units? Yeah, and for the three bedrooms at the 595, we have three units. Four units will be at 1,170 and we will have eight units at $1,645.

Okay, I do have quite a few questions. I like the idea of live and work. Okay, but what kind of businesses can go in there?

so it'll be based on the the zoning itself but what we've developed this type of concept in other areas too so we'll have little creative studios whether it's you know artist studios for painting or photography someone who may be starting a business and they need a place to live and then kind of start their business and let's see we also have like little wellness like hair massage you know like a one Person hairdresser or someone who has a massage or business that you know helps people with stretching and things like that so it's kind of a you know, very You know, I guess limited traffic type of businesses, but it's Yeah, you know the the the workspace is going to be around 630 square feet for the residents And so we've had great success with it. I think it adds, you know, an opportunity to for someone who may be starting a business to come in and have a place to start that business and a great, you know, mixed use area of the city. And they'll have great, you know, visibility to the road as well.

OK, I have a question. This is on the purple line.

Yes, it is. Yeah, I think it's the purple line.

And when we talk about these live-work units, how... How would a member of the public enter the commercial space?

So we have, um, what was the city walk coming down in the grade? So they had come down off the north coast road. So the purple line you're talking about is right up here, correct? And then they could walk crossing Harrison at Harrison park drive.

Yeah. Cause there's a lot of, there's a,

yeah we had to go through like a lot of information about how they're redoing the purple line and where and where is the parking parking is all on site and it's in here so we tried to make put the buildings around the site so the parking would not be visible yeah that's the purple line stuff

the purple line wants the parking in the rear so is is that residential only that's also commercial this will be so this is all residential development and then we have the four live work units right here so yeah so the live work units will be integrated into units so on the first floor they'll have their their workspace and they'll connect up into a unit

But where's the parking for them?

In the center here. Back there where all the people live. It's more going to be walkable business.

So it'll be entrance on either side?

Yeah. And parking here will be mixed around. So it's not like reserving spaces specifically for commercial businesses right now.

Okay. How many spaces do you have?

I think we have around 51 spaces. 51 for 60 apartments? 30 apartments.

Yep.

and and for commercial yeah and there it's the again it's very limited to you so there's not gonna be a lot of traffic um with the uh with the commercial space unit so do you have restrictions in your lease we do yes it will be restricted to um what's allowed in the zoning code so it's nothing that's not interesting but you don't have restrictions above what's already approved by us um in your lease in our lease no i think it'll leave with the zoning and then um you know if there's any issues or things like that um we would have language in the lease where we're allowed to come in and um you know we'll work with the tenant if there are any issues um okay okay i have serious concerns about the amount of parking

where is because I mean if you've got 30 apartments you have a married couple living in it that's two spots right there if they have a teenage son that has a car that's possibly three if you've got a three bedroom and they get three adults who are in there together as roommates because they can afford it so I think and we'll talk to staff more about the parking requirements when we get there but um I'm very concerned where So where would they park if they can't park in the parking lot? Because they can't park on the street because of the purple lines.

So we don't believe this is not really going to cause, these types of businesses aren't going to cause much car traffic. They might even use them as just an office space. You know, we kind of designed it to hit the commercial.

I'm not even thinking about the visitors. I'm talking about, you said, 60 spaces? Yeah, well, 51 spaces. 51 spaces for 30 apartments, a combination of two-bedroom and three-bedroom, plus the live-work space. I mean, it could be somebody lives upstairs and somebody else uses the office downstairs. So the people living upstairs need a spot to park, and then so does one downstairs.

There would be a person living in the work unit, they'd come in and lease that. Sit outside? Yeah. OK.

So maybe that's so, but you don't have, you didn't bring a lease by any chance? No, I didn't. So if you have then, So my question is, you can't park on what street is it with the purple line? Post Road. You can't park on Post Road because of the purple line. So when this gets built, somebody decides to have their family over for Christmas dinner, and there's six of them. They bring four cars and all that type of thing. And it's going to happen because that is not near enough spaces. Where are the overflows supposed to park?

Based off of past deals around the area, too, based off of parking, Greg, what have you seen similar to this? We've managed this well, and we haven't had issues.

Yeah, so we have numerous developments where we have this kind of ratio to parking, which is like 1.5 to 1.7 units per acre of parking spaces per unit. And we really don't have any issues with overflow parking or residents being able to find a parking spot. What I find is I usually go in and I've never had a time where I've gone in and not been able to get a parking spot. So we really don't have a lot of overflow issues, especially with being near the bus line and it's just right there. We don't anticipate having any issues here too.

Where are the departments now that you have that incorporate all this?

So we have, so the lit work units, so we have those in Michigan and Virginia.

None in Indiana?

None in Indiana. We have other apartments. Again, it's kind of all, you know, it's similar concepts in these more dense mixed use areas in the other states too. But with this development here, you know, we have them in Plainfield, Indiana. uh we have a townhome senior living unit or property there we have actually two in Plainfield Indianapolis uh Noblesville we have another townhome development and in the southern part of the state we have a few more townhome developments as well my other concern is the infrastructure here um we've got the

apartment complex that we just, variance. We've got the Keystone property going in that hasn't even started. We've got the senior citizen behind the, and then we have had this. I'm concerned about the infrastructure here. The traffic down Post Road, it's only one lane. When everybody gets into this, and I live on, I live here, so I am concerned. all the traffic, all the sewers, and all that. That's my concern with this type of project.

We believe 30 units will not bring that much traffic. We've done similar deals in the same unit range in the past, and we've done traffic studies on it. You can refer to our past most recent deal we were working on.

requirements for traffic studies we didn't work we aren't even hitting like the requirements that would trigger like a traffic study here during peak traffic times um you know we're not even close to what you know would concern traffic in the area um so you know we're looking at you know 30 to 50 trips per hour during the peak times and throughout the day you really don't have much because everybody's gone they're going to work and then if they're coming home that's when you'll have a little bit going to and from work you have a little bit more traffic issues but um you know i think traffic trip wise you know i don't think it'll be a problem for this development again it's it's 30 units in this area any other questions for the clarification so you are planning on

one and a half parking spaces per apartment yeah I think it comes out to be about 1.7 parking spaces per unit okay so that means that what you're counting on is that you won't have people with not every department will have two people with cars.

And I was sorry.

Oh, no, no, no, no. That's OK.

I would say across the portfolio, we've essentially managed all of our properties and we're at 17,000 units now. We really do take these things in consideration and if we weren't having issues with properties, it's already our management companies on us regarding these things. We really do want the community to meet their needs and just across the whole portfolio through Indiana, through working in Michigan and North Carolina personally, we've done similar ratios for townhomes specifically and we have not we have not seen problems and i think too also having the the purple line there as well as a different way of transportation too and this i think attracts being in this walkable area more of a walkable environment so families coming in maybe the families younger families a starting place an affordable place they live in a nice clean affordable apartment in a great place like the fort so we're thinking more families with maybe younger kids hence the dog park and the playground we don't foresee large families with adults with multiple cars coming in just based off of what we've done in the past through the large volume of the fields so have you looked at the ridership because purple line is coming in

Have you looked at the ridership of the Purple Line? Because it's my understanding that the other lines have very low ridership, and that's been one of the big criticisms. So I think if you're relying, and maybe I'm not understanding correctly, if you're relying on that Purple Line to relieve the need for parking, I think that may be an overinflated hope.

I'm saying more the Purple Line and kind of the walkable area of the fort is just in general kind of more, we can see families coming here with young kids, starter place to live, and it's kind of more a parent would have one to two cars in Patmos is what we've seen. And we just believe that this parking ratio has been successful for us and we have not had issues from a management perspective.

Have you talked to any of the local of the nearby businesses about park overflow parking?

So we've talked specifically to Greg in the city and he recommended this parking ratio as well. We have not talked to other people in the community.

And the reason, and I think you heard me, I kind of, this was, this is always kind of my, my thing is safety.

Yeah.

You know, I think that's one of the big things that we're tasked with is making sure our community is safe. Because what my concern is, is that it's across the street, across Post Road is Lawrence Community Park, which would be the next big available parking area. So the concern would be for me that you're going to have families parking at Lawrence Community Park and then crossing five lanes of traffic to get home with small children. And so that would be the concern. So that was part of why I asked if you'd talk to, I mean, there's like, I think it's like the autism schools right there. I mean, there's stuff on that side of the street. I mean, are you doing restrictions on how many parking spots per unit or?

We just haven't had issues with it in the past. I'm sure we can.

Let's imagine you have a problem. Let's forget the past and imagine that this actually is a real issue.

Yeah, and if it becomes an issue, which again, I don't think it will be. We've been very efficient with our billing signs and our correcting ratios and with the data that we have with our developments and and again we don't we really don't have issues with this type of parking ratio but we're open to definitely working with neighbors surrounding property owners if there's something we need to do with them for overflow parking um and we can come up with agreements with them so that we can ensure that you know they're not crossing five lanes of traffic um And I'm not sure, too, and forgive me, I should have checked before I came tonight at Harrison Park Drive. I don't know if you're allowed to park on that or not. I was thinking if it was a public street, they could do it there. But again, I think, you know, we're long-term owners. We want to create partnerships with the community. We're open to working with the surrounding property owners if there is a need for open parking. And I don't think there will be, but we're definitely open to it. You know, we don't want to put residents at risk.

Yeah, and I see... and I see this area being built up with more residential and I think there is a definitely a need for more residential spaces but yeah it I think safety has to come first but we we have like the nursing home we just approved um and I think that is just a jump away so um it's right behind the it will be It's a nursing home slash assisted living.

Yeah, right behind the center and the kidney dialysis place. It's that strip up right behind there.

Yeah, because there's other, I mean, there's other, I think there would be other options available to you, but yeah, we need to ideally not have people cross-filing.

Yeah, well, we would, of course, evaluate that if that's an issue. We would have to work something out because we would not have to.

I'm concerned about the, I think it's a great idea, the work-live part, but I have a problem with, I think it's a great idea. I like the concept and everything, but having traffic come in there, a hair place, a massage place, A tattoo place, am I right?

Yeah, and it would be like one per, it's not, they're not.

But then again, we got the one and a half.

Yeah, 600, I mean 600 square feet for a commercial business is not.

How would you regulate that though? How would you regulate? How many people would be at a specific residence or the work live? How can you say for sure that only one person is going to be allowed in that space?

I don't know if the city or the state regulates how many people are allowed in a certain place based on the square footage, but that would be... what would regulate that so um you know i know with um you know our leases we could put that information in there too to regulate how many people can actually be in that space at one time it's the fire marshal fire marshal yeah so we'll work with we'll work with them abide by those codes to ensure you know there's not a ton of people in there i mean um you know again it's it's a place for you know it's a very low traffic business from what we have in our other developments um we don't have a lot of people in that space at one time so what's the zoning on the on the business part of it the live work units what's the zoning so i think that falls under the the d8 ordinance so it's businesses that are allowed under d8 i believe so um is renee is that correct yeah that might be a city question i'm sorry

Well I had one too about the parking too because isn't that already set by statute that you based on the square footage you have to have X number of spaces. Exactly. I mean does this not meet that requirement?

So we're not looking at development standards of the actual building right now. That will have to be when they submit plans. We'll go through that process. All we're asking for tonight is a variance from the light industrial zoning that it currently is now to allow for a plan to be submitted for development of a D8 project. So if 51 parking spaces doesn't meet the D8 code, they're going to have to come back before you all and ask for an exception to that. If the proposed business that they want to put in the live work doesn't meet what's allowed per zoning code, they'll have to come back to you and ask for permission for that business. So we're not getting that deep into the specific development standards. Right now we're just asking, can they rezone this light industrial property to a D8 to allow for the plans to be drawn up, to be submitted, to be reviewed, and not the specific development standards. That's not what we're asking for tonight.

What about the infrastructure?

So they are aware that the city of Lawrence is under an EPA order for wet weather retention on our sanitary sewers. They are aware of that and that they're gonna have to do their design to accommodate those restrictions that we have. So the developers are aware of that. We've had several conversations with them regarding that issue. So that again would be something that we would address through the plan review process of the plans.

And I think to, you know, as we were looking to acquire this property from the board, one of the main things of fort wanted was to have some commercial along with this residential so that was one of the stipulations in our agreement with them to buy the property is that we would include commercial space along with our residential and so that's one of the reasons too why we are presenting it with the live work concept is because they they wanted to see that as a site was redeveloped

You said something interesting, and I wanted to go back to earlier. You said this parking plan had been approved by Greg Goodnight. Now, you do realize that.

Not approved.

You said it was suggested. You made a very clear inference, and I just want to make sure you understand that Greg Goodnight has nothing to do with our department over here or with us sitting up here or the decisions we make. We operate totally independently of that. and so and i just want to make that very clear i understand and if i said if i said approved or i know why i know why you threw the name out there and i know why you threw out some of the other names but i'm just letting you know that we rely on our staff she's evolved everybody here that's been involved this is the only one that has actual zoning experience and land use experience on all that She's got the wisdom. And the many years that Faith and these folks have been doing this. So that's why we're asking these kinds of questions. I would like to know where, you said you had a place in Indianapolis that you had developed? Yes. What was it?

Proctor Place. Where is that? It's, oh gosh, I think on the west side. I'd have to get my phone to look at the specific location.

So you haven't been there for a while to know?

I haven't. I'm based out of Columbus, Ohio, so I don't know all the streets off the top of my head.

So is that the only one in Indianapolis?

uh no we are starting construction it's actually under construction right now um hodges commons and that one is we're working with the international marketplace coalition to develop 98 units of affordable housing with the daycare on that property okay

So, well, then, I think, like we said, we'll be getting ahead of ourselves on some of our questions.

So, yeah, thanks for railing us back in. Be prepared. You know what's coming, right?

You know what's coming.

I would like to say it is important for us to hear your guys' thoughts because you guys are a part of the community, so you guys know better than us, especially when we're going at it today.

And I think when Luke and we were referencing talking with Greg and then, you know, with Russell with the four, it wasn't just drop names. It was to like, you know, we've been working with them to take input too on, you know, what the community would like to see here as well and try to design accordingly because, you know, we value the community's input as we're designing these. And, you know, I think we've come up with a plan. We've gone back and forth on different concepts. in regards to your utilities and water retention, underground storage to collect the storm water retention on rainfall and things like that before it discharges into the sewer system. We were all taking that into account with our design. Our development will also be LEED Silver certified, so it'll be very energy efficient. That helps residents with their utility cost as well.

Can I ask you a point about the price range for the units? Is this going to be income-based? How do you?

Yeah, it'll be based on the area median income. So we can rent the individuals who have up to 80% of the area median income. Thank you.

What is the facade going to be?

So we have on here it'll be Which would resemble what that's out there now It's a specific

submittal to the architectural committee for the reuse authority and the historical society. So we regulate the color of your shingles, the windows you can use, the color of the brick, every single architectural. So all of that is very, very rigid.

So it will meet those standard just like everyone else?

Absolutely. And if they wanted an exception, they would have to ask you.

regulations in that area but I I see it I see it changing to more and more residential so okay I don't think I have any other questions and and we try to design the elevations kind of fit in well with the surrounding area as well and what's been developed there yeah I like that I like the elevations on this yeah not five feet or not five stories yeah okay yeah two stories no more questions at this time board okay

Is there any remonstrators for or against the petition? Renee, do you want to come up and speak?

Renee Raffalo, Director of Public Works. This property is about 2.3 acres, and they're planning, as they said, a 30 unit work live for four of the units. although it is does the property is designated for a light industrial use it was either last year the year before for the property just behind this in caddy corner you all approved a senior affordable housing project it did not get awarded funding but i have talked to that developer and they're applying again for this round So if you remember trying to remember how many units that had, I think it was 55 units. If memory serves, don't hold me to that. So we're hoping that gets funded. Our our vision for some of these infill properties, the city of Lawrence is in it, along with many communities in the United States are in housing crisis. We just recently had a task force here in the city that met every single Thursday for a whole year trying to figure out what to do about the housing crisis specifically here in Lawrence. We have worked with the WOTA team very closely to try to come up with a product that helps us with that housing crisis. It's close to transit. It's affordable housing. So your concerns about parking, If they qualify for affordable housing, they probably are using public transportation. Not necessarily. We kind of keep that in mind when we're looking at the development standards. And I wanted to stress to you again, if 51 parking spots don't meet the requirement for the number of units, they're going to have to ask for a variance for that. They're going to have to meet the requirements of the zoning, which is what we're asking the board to approve. to move forward with this project. They're going to have to address the wet weather sanitary conditions that we have in order to move forward with the project. There will be applying for the affordable housing tax credits and all of that too. So it's think it's a good fit the design that they're proposing the amenities that they're wanting to provide that it's close to transit i think it's a good fit and a good idea to rezone could we wait and develop the property with light industrial which is what we originally planned We've been doing this redevelopment of the fort for 20 years. And this is the, not the first interest, but the first real interest in developing this parcel. And we think it's a good fit to meet our housing crisis and the needs of our community. Were there any specific questions for me?

So all we're doing tonight it's granting said great who are denied a variance for the d8 use yes ma'am and that variance will go with this property yes ma'am and it's currently zone c1 or like it's light industrial so which is the heavier use d8 or light industrial well light industrial is a different type of use that would be you could put

warehouse they could put a warehouse there train the the train building with the daycare in it that's light industrial that could be a use they could put a school could go there kind of very similar to what we already have office buildings warehousing and that doesn't really help our housing situation People want to move to the fort. They want to live here. And the market is proving that. We've got the Benjamin building going in with luxury apartments. We just rezoned some property over off of Lee Road and Memorial Park Drive for some more luxury apartments. we have the senior ones that you guys approved last year going right behind this that are affordable and then we've got these live work units that are going to be affordable too so i think it gives us a balance of the luxury and the affordable all within the same little area and that's a good thing for us you really need a grocery store in that area can we get a trader joe's we have been trying it's you know

It's hard that the demands not here.

Yeah, not yet. But once we get the residents here, you will have the demand for the grocery and the dining and the other things that go with it. If you can get the people, everything follows.

So again, we're just approving this that allows them to submit their plans.

And it allows the development to meet those standards, which is most appropriate for the number of units that they it's the lowest zoning that I could get them for the number of units they wanted.

So you're saying it will meet the parking?

I don't know. I don't know. That's all part of the plan review process and not part of the variance request for today.

Basically, if they don't meet in any one of the things, they have to come back to us. Oh, yeah.

There's a landscaping requirement. There's parking. There's elevation requirements. There's all kinds of checkboxes that they're going to have to go through. We're not asking for any variances from the checkboxes, just that we can develop it as a D8 dwelling apartment type living parcel instead of industrial.

So basically what they're turning in is basically like, hey, does this city, will they even allow you to do this before we even approve anything?

Right.

Makes sense.

They'll have to go through the whole process through stormwater review and approval, architectural site plan, utilities, all of that. That's all part of the other part of my job.

Yeah, but if we hadn't have that senior living come in, I think this would have been a much harder process.

so but we've already grappled with that well and the senior living one that you that you guys approved did not have the parking if you remember they had to use the parking of the strip center and they're going to put a sidewalk that connects it so yeah i think i i appreciate you guys looking out for the parking and that's something we'll be definitely making sure

Yeah, I think grappling with the transition of any type of residential in that area, I think we actually accomplished that at that prior meeting.

Yes, ma'am.

We don't want people getting hit by cars.

No, we do not.

Any other questions?

No other questions.

Thank you. Sir, do you have any other comments or anything for the board?

I do not. Besides, you know, we're open to working with the board in the city and the four as we continually, you know, go and adjust our planes accordingly and ensure that we meet the requirements that work with the city. We are applying for tax credits next week. one of the requirements to apply for the tax credits is to have zoning in place and so tonight's vote would allow us to move forward to apply for tax credits this is going to represent a twelve point nine million dollar investment in the community itself as a construction company too. We like to hire locally for our subcontractors. If we can't find them locally, we go regionally and then throughout the state. We try to ensure that when we're building a property as well, we're investing in the community by hiring locally. So we think this will be a very big investment in this area. And take a property that's been sitting vacant for some time and go put a good use with it. So thank you for hearing us out. And again, we do look forward to working with you guys on our design.

Thank you, sir. Board ready to vote tonight?

Yeah.

We are voting on 26LUSV12, 5405 North Post Road. Request a variance of use from the Fort Harrison Master Reuse Implementation Plan to allow multifamily development project in an area designed for light industrial. The project will meet the development standards outlined in the City of Indianapolis Zoning Subdivision Ordinance for a D8 as defined in Chapter 742, Article 1, Section 03. The board has unanimously, anonymously granted your petition. Okay, no. Okay, the next case is 26 LSV 13, 9906 East 63rd Street, a desire to split the property into two partials and seek a variance of chapter 744, article two, section 01, table 744-201-1 to allow for one parcel to be 21,801 square feet and the other parcel to be 18,117 square feet. Thank you and good evening Chairperson Lytle, members of the board. Each of you should have

an exhibit book that I will walk through very quickly. I am representing Kate Borkowski tonight. She is the owner of 9906 East 63rd and currently resides in the house that fronts on 63rd Street. It's very close to here, just off of Lee Road, kind of catty corner to the school. And there's two streets, 63rd Street and Pleasant Woods. Drive that this property fronts on Miss Wolkowski is here with me tonight in case you should have any questions simply put She desires to build a new home on kind of what we would consider the backyard of the existing lot. And if you can turn to page two in the exhibit book, you can see the zoning map and you can see that the property is very deep, measured from 63rd Street running north. In fact, it's 420 feet deep, which is way more than you would need to build two houses, let alone one, which exists today. The survey that is in Tab 3 indicates that the existing home sits towards the front or towards the south end of the property and fronts on 63rd Street. You can kind of see the shape of the house and there's a fence backyard. There is well more than 200 feet from that point moving to the north. So the idea then is to create a new lot which would be the north lot and that would be a little more than 21 000 square feet leaving the existing uh structure in place uh and that would be on an 18 000 foot lot now D1 requires 24,000 feet total for each lot. Not going to deny that. However, that is one of the things that is in your calculus tonight. There are many other standards that D1 has, and you can find the basic zoning dwelling district chart in tab five. So for what we think is a very important part of your decision-making process is, well, Are these lots going to have structures that meet setbacks? There's front setback, rear setback, side setbacks. Are they going to meet open space requirements? Are they going to meet fronted requirements? And all of those things go along with the overall square footage part of the equation. I'm pleased to say that every other development standard for D1 will be met if you approve this variance tonight. What this variance will do will allow new construction in a neighborhood that is 50 years old thereabouts. The house that Ms. Borkowski has was built in 1974 and that's kind of the vintage for this area. I think the homes on the west side of the street are a little bit newer. But this would allow for construction, if you look at tab 7, one home fronting on Pleasant Woods, meeting setback requirements, not overcrowding any other of the homes that are in or along the street or in that segment of the neighborhood.

It would meet, it's not going to generate any traffic. It's one single family home.

And as you've heard from Renee several times, there is a construction plan permitting process to assure that stormwater utilities and all of those other things are taken care of. We hope that you would find that it is a good thing to support somebody that lives in the community today that wants to build a new home. The existing home would then be rehabbed and sold to a third party. We think those are all good things for the community. The driving force in all of this is simply the desire of a person that lives here, wants to stay here, wants to build a new home. She works here in the community and this is a fantastic investment for the community and for this neighborhood as we see it. And I think you can take comfort in the fact that there are as mentioned in your staff report a variety of zoning classifications and lot sizes in the general vicinity Again, this would have very little impact our findings of fact are or in the staff report, we incorporate those by reference. But the driving factor in all of this is the fact that we've got a lot that has more than 400 feet of depth, which is way, way, way more than you would need to satisfy the D1 standards. So even though you are allowing us to have two lots that are slightly less than 24,000, We'll meet all the setbacks. We'll meet the open space, the street frontage, all of that. It's going to fit in very seamlessly with this neighborhood and just provide a new home that we think you all would be proud of as a community. And we're grateful that your Renee and staff agrees with that. Happy to answer any questions. And again, my client's also here to answer any that you may have. Thank you.

You spoke on a third party purchasing the other home.

Is that like a private situation, or is it a? The idea, and I talked to Kate shortly before, is that this home, to be built on the north lot takes about a year. She would then embark. She's living in the home that front that's existing today. She would then rehab that because it's older and then sell it to you or me or anybody else that might want to buy it. It's not intended to be investment property. It's intended to be sold to a third party. Thank you. Thank you.

I can't remember. Is there a road running alongside of it? I know where it's at. I see it. I just can't picture it right now.

On the map, it's Pleasant Woods.

Pleasant Woods. It's a long cul-de-sac.

Okay.

You can see it in tab 1, which is the aerial photo is on the wrong side of tab 1, my apologies, but it's a long cul-de-sac that has a scattering of single-family homes on both sides of the street.

Okay. So the drive would be on Pleasant?

Correct. Exactly.

Joe, the homes that are across the street from your client's parcel, those look like they're sitting on smaller lots.

They are. They were part of a DP or planned unit development that came in later. Those are the ones that are a little bit newer vintage, and those are closest to 63rd Street and essentially directly across the street from this parcel. Not all of it, but a great amount of it.

Here, it would be nice for a family with a school right there.

Any other questions?

Yeah. You can thank Miss Borkowski for taking the time to work with an architect to design something that we think the community would be proud of. Just for your edification. This is step one. We still have to file a plat which we've done and it is scheduled to be heard in Marion County of all places on August 12th. So notices just went out for that today. Posted the signs last night. So and the plat locks in exactly what we're telling you that we're doing and that has the exact lot sizes And you can see that, if you'd like, in tab four.

Does the board have any other questions? Thank you, sir.

Thank you.

Are there any remonstrators for or against the petition?

We're using it wisdom tonight.

Please state your name and address, please. My name is Wayne Collins.

I reside at 8420 Stark Drive, but my concern is with 9908 East 63rd Street. Just look, how much time do I have? Five minutes. Just a little bit about me. My name is Wayne Collins. I grew up in the area. I'm going to school here. My mom passed away in 2012, and we were going to move away. I have a younger brother. He's a nonverbal Downs. But as we talked about, the city of Lawrence is a sense of belonging. So we went to elementary school here. We went to high school here. I've grown up here. So we come to love the city of Lawrence. It's amazing the things we do for the ones we love and the things we love. But my concern is with splitting the parcel. First of all, there's a discrepancy in the survey. The survey has it, even if you go on to GIS, it's three feet from my door. My original plot has where the land between my home, which is that I own, 9908 and 9906, if you can go on GIS and look at that, the plot should be evenly divided. it's not the recent survey that was actually just recently done we're almost three feet from my door and i don't have a driveway so i i took the liberty to contact a survey company and they're going to i'm going to conduct my own survey and and to seek counsel because i i I disagree with the way that there was no communication. Again, going back to the point where we're talking about the city of Lawrence. The city of Lawrence is good for us to have a rapport if we're neighbors. It's good for us to talk to one another. It's healthy. But there was no communication to each his own. But there's a strong, there's a discrepancy in the survey for favoring the petitioner. But on the west side of their house, their boundary line goes through the house. If I was the property owner and someone did the survey, I would have a big challenge, even if I'm looking to sell the property later, I would have a big challenge with the border or with the boundary line going through the west side of the property. West side of the property that's already there, 9906. I think the property that they're talking about producing, the proposed, is behind 9906.

Your house is next to her house that she currently lives in, correct?

Correct. Mine is 9908, and it's to the east side of 9906. Right here, this one. to the east side across pleasant correct but it's uh across pleasant woods if you look on pleasant woods there's there's two homes that's right together our lots are similar they're i mean they're almost identical right um to be exact he said a forum except 20 feet it should be 417 and a half feet that's okay i was gonna ask if you've scheduled the survey no i have not scheduled the survey as of yet

I see what you mean in petitioner's exhibit two. Joe, you may want to take a look at that. When you look at 9906, it does. The boundary on this cuts through the- Goes through the house.

For me, again, if I was even a property owner, even if I'm willing to buy that property, why is the boundary line going through the west side of the house? So that tells me that either the information is either incorrect or it was done incorrectly. So I have a plot, and I'm sorry, I don't have any visuals. If we need to ask for a continuance, I would ask for a continuance. But the plot plan has where it's divided equally. And then there's an easement that's on the east side of 9906. That easement, the city of Lawrence has not seized the property. So that means is the boundary line should go where the easement is at. Again, if you look at it, it's about... Is there an easement recorded on the property? There's an easement for 9906 on the west side of the property. If you go to GIS, if you bring that up, it'll tell you green lines, easement, red lines, borderline, or the boundary line. So my concern is the survey is done, even if the surveyor had contacted the petitioner and say, look, you know, I have nothing to do with that. I guess my concern is that there were new pins established. If new pins established, that means there was a discrepancy in the survey when it was done itself. So if there's a discussion in the survey, which means is it just needs to be done correctly. I'll have to get a surveyor. I haven't scheduled it, but I will. I mean, again, if we need the order of continuance and I can do this, as I said, by next meeting, is it normally monthly that we usually do the meeting?

So do, and this might be a question for the attorney, do we know if there is a recorded easement?

Yeah, I'll explain after Mr. Collins is done.

But then I think then the question becomes,

hypothetically if there is an easement that would correct the discrepancy in the survey i what i want to hear you talk about is how that affects your property okay um what i wanted to ask about is is construction traffic um it's when i when i grew up as a kid well it's just and that property back there um it was it was um First, mom and dad bought the property, and we were able to have all the kids over. We just loved that. So for it to affect my property, if this is not corrected, how's construction traffic going to go? Because are you going to come down pleasant wood? You have to pour the foundation. It affects it. You have to go between the homes. I'm not quite sure how they're going to do that. And with the drainage on those properties. 9908 which is my home 9936 and there's another property all that drains towards the back end of the property so that means is if you're doing construction for a year what's going to happen is all that water it gets really soggy back there and you get a lot of mosquitoes So, but if you do construction on a home for a year, what's gonna happen is all that water, when you get in the wet season, is gonna pool in my yard because 993, 9936, and the one other home, and I'm sorry, I don't know it by memory, and my home all drain towards the back end of that property. So if you're doing construction, water goes to the path of least resistance. So that means is the water's gonna either stand in my yard for a year until they complete construction, Or, you know, the city of Lawrence will have to, how are they going to do the sewer? It naturally drains now. It drains to the back end of the property, and it drains along, there's a little small creek that it drains into. So I... it would affect me as a construction traffic not only with the school it would affect me because of the drains for the water when it rains really heavy i went out there just recently when we had rain that was really heavy uh it's soggy i just i got my more stuff twice back there my neighbor went before um um the petition was there that is more stuff so will it benefit them to have the house back i don't know i'm just i'm just saying but from from the from past experience In my point of view, when it gets extremely soggy on the back end of the property, it's not beneficial. It has to dry up. It's over a period of time. But as for me affecting the property directly, As I get older, I want to do what I can for not only for myself, but for the future generation. What I mean by that is, when I sell the property, I want a family to come in, and I've already talked to three different families that are interested in the property. I want the family to come in and have the kids in the backyard and enjoy the whole time. So if you split that property, It is not as valuable as it is now. So if that was me, I wanted to buy the property, I wanted to buy the whole yard. I wanted to buy the whole acre for it.

Have you worked with a realtor?

Yes, I'm working with a realtor now.

And did the realtor say that the property value would decrease if an additional home was built?

I did not ask that specific question, but I can.

Yeah, I think that would be helpful to know.

Okay.

Because if it's negatively going to impact, because I think the question that is unanswered, let's say another home goes in, does that increase your property value or does it decrease your property value? My natural inclination would be it increases your property value, but I don't know. I'm not a realtor.

But again, if I'm a family and I'm looking for, it's not everybody that does this. I'm looking for a home that has a big backyard that has a full acre on it. So, again, as a kid, I was able to enjoy that. If I purchase that, I'm being hypothetical. If I purchase that land, you know, it's healthy for a family. Again, I don't know. It could be a family. It could be. It's healthy for a family to look at this and say, look, I like this property, especially for the backyard.

Are you currently selling your home?

I like to sell it at some point in time, but the family that I have interest in, I want to get all the legal issues taken care of at some point in time.

It's a valid concern, right? If there's boundary issues, that's going to affect your ability to purchase title insurance.

The way the boundary is set up now, I can't.

even if they had a fence there I couldn't get into my garage yeah what I'm trying to pinpoint is where you're at in the process because we'll have to make we'll have to make a decision so let's say for example if we would continue it but nothing happened on your end we'd probably just move forward okay do you see what I'm saying so that's why I'm asking where are you at in the process because I think I think you're raising valid concerns with how it's affecting your property

uh... but the question i might is will you be able to i think it might and he worked with their attorney i have not i just i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i new bill is going to be you did you say three feet from your door the way the way the property lines of the survey that was recently done um again if you go into gis the east side of the boundary line is about three feet from my garage door that that's incorrect so that's why i had to seek counsel because if i want to make sure the boundary not the house just the boundary

Yeah, the boundary, not the house itself.

I'm talking about the land boundaries. So what happens is it's actually about three feet from my door and that's incorrect.

So what do you think it should be approximately?

The land between that house should be split almost equally. What happened was in the beginning, so that's the value of living in Lawrence. When you know things and especially the neighbor that was there before. For that piece of property, They used to be, the garage doors used to face one another. The family that was there before, the family that was before the petitioner, what they did is they changed the garage for 9906 so it'll face 63rd Street. So it gives us plenty of room. But the area between the homes should be equally equally spread. It should not, and there is a, Mike Crawford, he did a survey. I cannot find it. I can contact the children of it. But that property should be equally split.

You're talking about the boundaries between the houses. Correct. So if.

Rather it being three feet from my door, we each should have 10 feet on each side. I'm being hypothetical. Yeah.

So you drive in your car, down this it's almost like an alleyway to park your vehicle almost okay so um and you're saying that instead of having your 10 feet it goes into three feet yeah it's and so so in effect then I'm trying to figure this out. Can we rezone a piece of property that he's standing up here and telling us that she doesn't own? No. No. We have to kind of see what's going to happen with that.

Yeah.

Of course, we still have Frank. Joe, did you hear from him? Right. But that's basically it. Otherwise, if those issues were resolved, And aside from the construction, because any time you build a new home, somebody's going to be into me. Is that your only concern about splitting the property?

Pretty much so, yes.

Okay. Because if it's going to lessen the value of her place, if it's going to cause her problems, that's her thing. You don't have to worry about that for you. Correct.

We're trying to see the impact to you and your property.

Exactly. Again, the construction, it has to go down pleasant wood or it's going to have to go between the homes. So you'll have to pull the foundation. You've got dump trucks coming in. You've got cement trucks coming in.

But that will go down pleasant run. Yep.

right it won't right go through the property but they'll have to come to us for curb cuts yeah yeah it's not it's not a simple process like i know sometimes we get ahead of ourselves but what what i'm focused on with you is what's the impact to your property to your property value right to i think the drainage i always am interested in the drainage too um and then yeah if there's issues, then that's going to affect our decision to split apart.

Again, I wish I would have had a conversation with the petitioner beforehand. Again, it's healthy for us as neighbors to talk to one another. The challenge that I'm coming in is when the survey was done, it wasn't until I drove up on the property. When I drove up on the property, there was

Do you have a driveway currently?

It's not a driveway as in asphalt or gravel, but legally, yes, it should be a driveway that's there.

Because I'm looking on the map and I don't see grass. It's grass, yes. It's just grass.

Is there a garage? Yes. the garage is attached to the home correct it's it's a 9908 and 9906 is an exact double of what i was on this map they're both doubles and but the only thing is the the that's what i mentioned before the the garage door you show him the map or what you need well i don't know if this i just said if he could point his house i'm just curious his house is right here on this It's right next to him.

There's 9908.

You're talking about this one right here?

Right here. Okay, okay, okay. That's his house.

Yep, my garage is actually on the side. Their garage is in the front. But that was actually done by the tenants that were there years ago. Oh, it's over here.

so is it is this little space right here that he's concerned about right in here right next door to the east of it

But again, that's a red flag to me, if the boundary line goes through the house. So the boundary line on the west side of their house goes through the house.

But that's her problem.

Yeah, but all due respect, what happens is it encroaches on mine. Not on that side it doesn't. What I'm saying is even on the west side of the house, that boundary line should be another 10 feet to the west.

It's not that it pushes it. you're assuming that because it cuts through there, that it's pushing it over towards your way. And that may not be it at all. There may be just a genuine placement there where it cuts through the house. And then on yours, survey, I'll have to take a look at it. There was a piece of property that was common that's supposed to be split with Neisman. And I have a feeling we're going to be told about that. What's going to happen with that.

I'm assuming Mr. Calderon has already looked into that. So, yeah, we might be able to get answers tonight if he's already looked into it. But, yeah, I mean, I recognize your comment that, you know, neighbors should talk to each other. I don't disagree. But that's part of the notice. And so that's why you're here. So it is nice to meet you, sir.

And it's nice to hear from you.

And we are hearing what you're having to say. And we're taking it serious.

I appreciate that. Thank you.

And if you do get a continuance... And you have to have a survey. There's different types of surveys. Yeah, we'd have to get answers.

I understand.

And the one type of survey, if you need it, it can cost some thousands of dollars.

Between $2,700 and $4,500. I don't have that in my back pocket, but I mean, I can make arrangements.

As long as you're prepared for it.

Yep.

But we might be able to get answers from the attorney if he's already pulled. Mr. Calderon tends to be thorough, so he may have already pulled the records. We'll find out from him. He's chomping at the bit. But it is something we're taking seriously. Thank you for bringing that to our attention.

It is important. Well, I mean, again, with the city of Lawrence, I love being here. My little brother stays with me. I mean, it's just him and I. I just appreciate our neighborhood. So it's right for me to voice my opinion. Absolutely.

Yeah. But I also wanted to say, I mean, this is actually the appropriate process for communication. Thank you. Thank you.

The one thing is I will have to leave. And the reason is I have a caretaker for my little brother. And that's not a sympathy. I just have a caretaker for my little brother for a period of time. I had him from 5 to 8, and that person is ready to go home. So I will leave if that's okay. And I guess I'll hear about the judgment from the board from some point in time.

Okay. Renee, thank you. Thank you.

Any other questions for me?

No, sir.

I appreciate the time. Appreciate you.

We got to hear what we're going to hear.

Except for you folks. Wait a minute. Just a second. Are we doing any more? No, no, no. Come on.

Hi, my name is Kathleen Harper. I'm married to Emanuel Harper. We live at 6450 Pleasant Woods Lane, which is actually down the lane. We are the last home if you are going north on Pleasant Woods Lane. We are to the left.

Could you give your address again? Oh, yes, 6450 Pleasant Woods Lane.

Oh, yeah, she's at the end of the long line.

Yes, we are.

My father-in-law, retired Sergeant Major, was the second to build on that lane. which used to be called Mitchell Lane to give historical basis for those of you from more excuse me. Fortunately, the petitioner or you had a July 4th, which I was unable to attend. Sorry, because my great kids were over. I have a couple of concerns, one being that the parcel is divided into two lots. Is it going to be a single home? Or is it going to be two homes? It is going to be two homes.

Well, what in the front that's already built?

No, no, no. It has been surveyed as two different lots.

And one of the houses holds that existing house that's on the property?

No, no, no, no. There's the existing house that's at the front that she purchased or inherited. You purchase. Okay. And then behind that are two lots that have been divided into two parcels. So that is my concern. Is this going to be one home or two homes? You're saying there's another lot. There are. It's divided into two lots. Okay. Well, it's surveyed. Let's just say it's surveyed as two lots.

So you're talking about 60. I have a picture. 6401. Wait a minute.

Renee's coming up. She's showing you.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, it's surveyed as two lots.

If you look at number two. So right now it's one big lot with a house sitting here. Correct. What they're proposing is to keep that one house on its lot. So there's a house here. And then they're wanting to build the house here.

No, they have it sectioned off as two. Now, I could be. This is the proposed plan. Okay, well, I'm just saying how it's tagged. I'm just saying how it's tagged. In parcel portions, there is behind the home, there are two parcels.

So they're not making it three lots. It's going to be the lots. Okay, well, then I'll take you at your word. I'll take her at her word.

Because it's surveyed. It's surveyed and marked as two lots. So that was my concern.

64-01, which is the parcel that is behind it.

The property that is behind her exists.

Let me finish, ma'am. Let me finish, please. Okay, sorry. That's okay. Everybody gets excited. But I'm trying to help you out here. There's two parcels. that a butt up against the parcel that a petitioner is trying to find, a parcel that that gentleman who just left here that he owns, and they each have the same address, 6401, but they show them as two parcels. Is that what you are talking about?

Okay, yes, and perhaps because of my ignorance to surveying skills and all that good stuff, but I'm just doing layman's stuff, it is tagged and surveyed as two different lots. So that may be me, not being gross intelligence, but no, I can get what you're saying, that they marked it as such, and it's her lot. Oh.

Yeah, because you're talking 6401, and this is not another site.

We're going to split this one, right? She is where? But we're asking, are you talking about these lots?

The lot behind her house. Yes, so that's these. Correct. That's what you're talking about. It is marked. So, yes, if that is like that, then fine. It's 6401, it's 6401. So that is all her. But it's tagged to make us be in – I think there's two. So we wanted to make sure, are we building two homes? And what I was misinterpreting this evening is, okay, I'm hearing her say she wants to build a home, but as we're walking down the lane and we're seeing a lot segregated here and then a lot segregated here, we're just talking about pride.

I don't know what's going on with this.

And she may not even own 6401. She doesn't. Joe is her lawyer.

It's not asking you what's going on and whatnot. Yeah, that's our concern. It's like I heard, you know, at home, but it's cut off.

Because I know there's like the three here. So are you worried it's going to be like the three here? Absolutely.

Because there are two different markers for the... And that's what I'm saying. We didn't know because we're seeing as we're walking down the lane with our grandkids, we're seeing flags for two hard-earned nerds, but two different blocks behind the home. And then when we come this evening, and that was our point, being part of the community and our neighbor, to make sure, like, are we building two homes here? And then when I hear her say, I just want to build a home, that's great. The aesthetic would be great to have one home and whatnot. But our concern was, are we going to have two homes? And if so, what is the criteria for those homes going to be? Are they going to be vinyl? Is it going to be brick? um aesthetically i don't know that we have any control over that yeah and stuff like that and i could appreciate that um that was one of the things that for me and my husband says i'm a little pushy and stuff but i wanted to make sure that I understood, you know, I'm one that I ask questions if I don't get it, you know, knowledge is power.

So I wanted to make sure I don't make sure I understand you're here. You're mostly here to obtain information, to obtain information.

But also as for how does it affect your property is something that I would absolutely because if we're going to have two homes there, the three homes that were on the other side happened before You know, we were there and my father-in-law was there and that was a whole thing that he went through. But it is what it is. We have the three small brick homes there. and what have you. That's great. They're brick, they're aesthetically pleasing, yada, yada, yada. I know that has nothing to do with you. One of our concerns is though, I suffer from an illness that I do need emergency medical assistance down the lane. So when this home is being built and there is only that one access down the lane,

Is it a one lane?

It's one lane. What's going to happen?

Two lane road.

Yes, it's a two lane road, but when you build something, we all know how power equipment and things of that nature. Where are we going to have to park when this is being done is it going to be on the opposite side of your property that's not being maybe addressed at that time you know how am I going to get home how is my husband going to get to me if I 911 him or well that's what they should always have yeah that's always be clear

They can't obstruct.

They always have to keep the road.

And power and all of that.

Yeah.

You can't obstruct without permission. So that wouldn't be a concern. Okay.

Well, great. That kind of answers my questions, unless my husband and or son. Okay. We'll get clarity.

And we'll get clarity about the parcel situation. I came up to make sure I understood exactly what you were talking about.

Yeah. I didn't get it. Again. Being a layman, it's marked off like it's going to be two separate sold lots, and when I come tonight and I hear her say, or her attorney say, building a home, that's grace. That's not my field of schooling, but nice to meet you.

Thank you. She didn't stand up.

Thank you.

And Sergeant Major, thank you for your service.

absolutely oh his father all right thank you as well renee renee rafla director of public works um

This proposed variance doesn't introduce a new land use. It's basically taking an existing parcel and splitting it into two parcels. So just for clarity, for her, one piece of property into two pieces of property, the house that is there now will remain, and a new house will be built on the other property, which is identified as lot one. property will have to go through the permitting process there will be a storm water review there will be an architectural review there will be a full review just like we do on every new house that is built they'll have to establish water sewer electricity gas if they choose it all of that is part of the process of building a home as joe mentioned it does have to go before the city of Indianapolis for a plat hearing, that's gonna be on August 12th, that will officially record it as a subdivision. It's not a subdivision, it's two lots, but that's the terminology that city of Indianapolis uses. The proposed new home from the conceptual drawing is going to be a beautiful home that fits very nicely in that neighborhood and would match the architecture and Actually, it's it's a bigger square footage than most of the homes in that area. It's going to be a very nice addition. We are in support of subdividing this property and allowing it to become two lots. The neighbors concern about the property line. That is a civil matter, not one that the city gets involved in. They've got to work that out, knowing that there's a problem I'll question that when I get the building plans. Did this get resolved? This is an official survey. It's stamped. It's stamped by a land surveyor. Does it bring a little bit of caution to see where the line is that it's like right on the edge of the house that's built? It does, but it looks like the house was built and then an additional utility easement was granted. so that's why that line i don't know if you guys saw that but if you look in tab three um there's a 10-foot non-exclusive utility easement that was recorded back in 1994. that was after this house was built so that may be why those lines are skewed but it is an official survey that stance. So Mr. Collins is going to have to hire his own surveyor to do a survey. And if there's a conflict that's handled separately from us.

Right.

Right.

So, so let me ask you a question then if, if, um, And I agree with what you're saying, but then if we go ahead and rezone the parcel, the part of it that's at issue, and it's later determined that she doesn't own it, she improperly asked for it.

She owns the parcel. She owns the entire parcel of 9906. The question is where is that property line? And that is a boundary line, a property line dispute between neighbors that they have to resolve civilly.

But what we're rezoning is what she has drawn. We're not rezoning. Right. We're not rezoning.

We're asking for a variance to allow the lot is required per zoning to be 2,400 square feet. And it's not going to be that. That's what we're asking for tonight. We're not asking for anybody to determine where the property line is.

Yeah.

or anything else about the property itself other than she can divide this lot into two parcels, one that is 21,801 square feet and the other one that's 18,177 square feet.

Right. Right. Yeah. Okay. That's really all.

That's what we're here for tonight.

Yeah.

Not to.

I mean, she was effectively going to be cutting back into that disputed area when she cuts it. But the question of whether she can cut it and all that will depend on what he gets. Right. Yeah.

Oh, that's other stuff. So. Okay. So, you know, when I get the plans in my office, we look at the setbacks, but they're and code requires you have 10 foot on the backside 10 feet on the side or whatever that development standard is for the property. We will look at that. We will look at the drainage to make sure none of the water from this parcel is getting to the parcel on Mr. Collins or the one to the north of it. That's part of the stormwater ordinance that you have to maintain that on your own property. So that's all technical things that we do during the review process. That's not something that we get into here at this board. We're just asking can she take this property and make the two lots a little smaller than what code requires? And we are in support of it. Any place that we can take a property and infill a new house, we're almost built out. I mean, we've got to be creative in developing properties that are available. Her intention is to build this really nice house, move into it and sell the other house. If I'm repeating what Joe had said. So, you know, she's building a new home and then providing another tax base for the city. It's property taxes. So we are in support. Yes, absolutely.

So unless you have any questions for me, I can always come back. Thank you, Renee. Thank you.

and sorry for any confusion that we may have caused in presenting initially mr collins emailed me yesterday afternoon three o'clock and i responded to him within the hour i wanted to pull the survey and print a large copy so i could scale it try to understand what his concern was and there's two things that he mentioned one of which does not impact him whatsoever and that's his claim that the existing house encroaches over the west property line if you turn to tab three which is a copy of the 11 by 17 version of the survey, yes, the west end of that house encroaches beyond the property line. However, this house was built in 1974 and the 25 foot easement came after that. So the house is there and it's not technically trespassing or encroaching because it was there when that easement was granted. So whoever benefits from that easement took it subject to the existing conditions. That does not have any impact on Mr. Collins' property whatsoever. And furthermore, the new home to be built north of that will respect that easement that's in place and be set back from that. So there won't be another home encroaching over anybody else's property or easement rights or right of way, whatever, however it's been granted. What Mr. Collins was concerned about with respect to his property to the east, is that he said the stakes only show my garage being three feet from the property line. There's no encroachments shown on the survey. We're not saying Mr. Collins is trespassing, and I don't think he can say that the existing home or its improvements encroach on his property. Because if you look at tab three, you can see that there's 20 feet of separation between the existing home and the East property line. It is not unusual for folks to have improvements that they think are 10 feet from a property line and they're not quite or whatever it might be. We're not looking to put the squeeze on him or anything. The state survey was done so we could, in fact, do this and so that Ms. Borkowski could plat and have accurate boundaries for the new home that she wants to meet to avoid any future problems. I told, when I replied to Mr. Collins, I kind of went through that and explained that, hey, I get it. I understand you're seeing something that's going over the property line. Your conclusion is the survey's got to be wrong. And I read through the survey pretty carefully. And the survey notes clearly state that yes, the house encroaches over that easement, but it was built before the easement was granted. So it takes subject to it.

And just for the record,

and it's just a yes or no do you have any reason to question the accuracy of the survey no because it meets the Indiana administrative code requirements too and I told this to Mr. Collins via email the accuracy is within 0.13 feet which is like less than two inches so the uncertainty is nominal it's there were no gigantic encroachments or anything like that flagged in the survey notes itself granted that west property line issue was raised but the surveyor stated hey that ingress egress easement came after the house was built so there is not an irreconcilable problem from the surveyor report it's stamped it's certified You know, I just don't think that there is an issue with respect to any of this impacting Mr. Collins' property. And, you know, we're neighbors. And Ms. Borkowski has had communication with them going back to April of this year, shortly after the survey was done. wasn't a last second surprise. It's been kind of known. I'm sure when he got the letter from me with the notice, it's like, oh my gosh, you know, I've got to deal with this.

And then also, just so we can just put on the record,

do you have any knowledge of this negatively impacting mr collins property value well i can tell you this the homes that exist today are 50 years old the ones on 63rd street and are less than 2 000 square feet miss borkowski's new home is going to be over a million dollars construction spend. So in my experience, that would lift all boats in the neighborhood. And sends a very positive signal to others that might be interested in

Selling or remodeling whatever the case may be it sends a pretty positive signal in my experience So I'm looking what it has your architect I mean your your surveyor went through and did set with them spike sets and Iron pins and that in the corner things there. So I'm assuming that's what he's saying on in exhibit 3 that That's what he's saying. It shows that the property line comes up to like within three feet of his garage. And he can't enter.

Pardon me?

He can't have ingress and egress into his garage because of the placement of that boundary line. is what he's saying. Now, whether that was the, if this was improperly drawn, I mean, I know Hans Urbain would expect that, or whether it was from, you know, bad title work or something that made somebody believe they owned this, I have no idea. But as Renee said, that all we have to do is decide, we gotta split it down the middle, so.

Right, and that's the boundary, not the house.

Right. I just want to also point out Mr. Collins' property does not have a driveway. And I'm thinking the reason it doesn't have a driveway is because it would encroach onto Ms. Borkoski's property. And that's why it was never established. There is no driveway cut to service that garage. And I went back because he called our office earlier today and I went back into Marion County's aerial photos. There's never been a driveway since that property was, that house was built. So it kind of raises some questions of why wasn't there ever a driveway cut originally? When I do the measurements on our GIS map, it matches the scale. The legal description matches the plot plan that has been provided. So I unfortunately think that when Mr. Collins does his own survey, he's going to find that he has three feet of property from his.

You might. I would mention that to him in the phone call tomorrow. OK, I think I did.

I would like the owner speak.

Yeah, I was not going to keep my mouth shut.

First of all, I bought this house last July and I immediately spoke with Wayne. We spent three months discussing me buying his backyard. I wanted the two backyards to build the new house and then I was going to try and subdivide it that way. After three months he decided he didn't want. to sell the land. So I went back to my architecture and said, OK, make my house fit on this lot. And so we redid it. So he's known since last July that I'm building this house. The survey was done in April, and I was as shocked as anybody to see that front stake on the east side of his driveway. There's the gravel. You can see a little driveway. And the fact that his driveway was on my property, again, I was as shocked as anybody. And in April, he sent me a text and said, I need a copy of your survey. Well, I just spent $4,500 on my survey. So no, you can't have my survey. I will tell you, I have every intention of deeding that property to him so that he can put in a driveway. No one has lived in this house for 20 years. He doesn't live in this house. He comes by once every, maybe twice a month. The first time he came by, I am, hi Wayne, how are you doing? And, you know, hi. And every time he comes by, he never comes over to say hi or to try and talk to me. He wants to do everything by text. I don't text. So the whole communication thing, I'm happy to communicate and I'm happy to be a good neighbor.

Does he know that you're going to deed that part to him?

No, I haven't said anything to him at this point. But again, it's neither here nor there. I've been trying to build this house for seven years, okay? I, too, I'm not from Lawrence Township. I'm a Panther. I grew up in Washington Township. But my family, we've lived out here since 1981. We built a house on Geist Reservoir. All my siblings live out here. I just sold my house in Oakland Hills to buy this house to build this new house. My office is on Oak Landon Road, just south of the railroad tracks. I'm very excited about it.

The art gallery.

Exactly. So, you know, I'm a member of this community as well. And like I said, I spent seven years trying to find a piece of property in this area, which is virtually impossible to do. And I spoke with Mr. Crawford for seven years. I'd stop by and try and convince him to sell me his backyard. And he says, no, I want to give it to the kids. And he died in March, and the kids sold it to me in April. We closed on it in July.

Okay.

Oh, let me just check really fast. Again, I'm making my record. The 6401 parcel, you don't own that, right?

Yeah, I'm confused as to what you're talking about.

It just shows up on the GIS zoning map. No, she does not own 6401.

Okay, I do not.

9906 matches everything.

Okay. I had agreed to inquire further.

Right.

So and you're only going to put two houses, not three like the process.

Yeah. One new house.

One new house.

One new house. One existing house.

Yes.

I'm going to rehab the 1975 house and put it on the open market to sell it to anybody who wants to buy it. Okay.

Okay.

Understood.

Everybody.

Well, yeah, we have, like, a lot of... Yeah, understood.

It can be confusing for laypersons.

We want to make sure that the adjacent property owners are... Right.

They're going to be neighbors.

And I had a cookout April 4th, and I hand-delivered my notes to every single house, and you were the only ones that weren't home. But I met all the neighbors, you know, delivering the...

that's what we want to see yeah and that's why we're just inquiring further because i mean how it impacts your neighbors is always something of course it's a required finding that's the required finding

Okay, the board's going to vote now on 26 LSV 13, 9906 East 63rd Street. This variance is to split the property into two parcels and seek a variance to allow one parcel to be 21,801 square feet and the other to be 18,177 square feet.

The board has unanimously granted your petition.

Thank you for your patience. Thank you for having answers for everything.