Heritage Preservation Commission - Regular Meeting

It's supposed to be one way.

Yeah. No. I think delivery guys. Jimmy John's.

Jimmy John's pretty much has the one end closed off Right. Most of the day.

I've had that. Yeah. Yeah. I had to go in the. Oh. Because I couldn't get.

Yeah. Most of the time I mean, other than, yeah, people have to turn around if they park there

Mhmm. Back out, which is it's really Alright. It's 03:30

on my screen. Thirty on your screen. Alright. We are recording. We're gonna go ahead and begin. It is Thursday, July 3 at 03:30PM in the year 2025. I'll call to order the special meeting of the Heritage Preservation Commission. We have panel members here in person except for Natalie Hennigan, who is excused and will be for the next three months. She had her baby boy a couple days ago. Yes.

The first order of business, though, is April excuse me. Approval of the minutes from 05/22/2025. Any questions on the minutes? If there are no questions on the minutes, I'll entertain a motion. So move. Motion to approve by Committmentary Gallagher. Second by? I'll second by. Commissioner McLuhan. All those in sorry. Is there any discussion on the minutes? K. All those in favor of the May minutes, please say aye. Aye. Aye.

Aye. And no. Who knows? That is unanimous, and that is approved. Our one and only agenda item, the reason for our special meeting is 25Dash0743, review of certificate of appropriateness for the property located at 327 Jay Street in the downtown historic district. You have a number of attachments. We'll start with that staff report, and I will turn it over to Tim to overview.

I'll start with Adele. Okay. So the applicant is proposing to install a 10 by 18 deck on the rear facade of the building that is currently housing. You can see in the staff report, This further indicates where it's going to be. There is the picture on the left is an old street view.

Right there, right on the right is more current view of there's existing door that's already been installed in that location. The deck is going to be located right between the door and then the fan that's sitting there, and so it'll be located in that area as well. The original application was for it to be all treated lumber for the deck platform and the railings. I had a picture of that somewhere here. Here we go.

The platform itself would be a mix of wood and steel I beams, which wouldn't really see the steel I beams very well. It's kind of part of the internal structure, but it'll be surrounded with wood. But there is gonna be two steel steel tubes that are holding it up from the ground, and it'll be approximately 12 feet six inches from from grade. So that was the original submittal, and then all the steel would be painted black that you could see, the steel tubes and any other steel you could see. Our design standards that we have in place for this district and our code, there's very little that really applied towards specifically decks.

So I did try to find the ones that talked about new construction, which and building materials and wherever it was located, things of that nature. There is more flexibility with additions and things of that nature with materials in the back, the rear facades of the buildings that are downtown. So, typically, probably would have been less of an issue. My concern was, though, is that where this is located, though in the rear of the facade, still highly visible due to the fact that that alley is heavily trafficked by people who are using this parking lot to park for Pickerman's. You can it's gonna be highly visible here.

It's highly visible for traffic that's traveling east on J Street because the enterprise car lot's sitting there, and you can see it, as well as people who highly use this lot to get to Jimmy John's drivers. It's just very highly one of the probably more heavily trafficked alleys than other alleys in downtown. So I wanted to be sure that we were making it more appropriate. I was looking at other decks, not all of the decks in the back. A lot of the older decks you see are mostly wood, and I had a long conversation with mister Kevin Kellogg who's here representing the owners. There's most of them have some sort some of them have a mix of wrought iron or some sort of metal and wood. There's a lot of the older ones that are just straight wood, and so it was kind of a little tough for me

to try to figure out,

you know, the best sort of solution for this. My own opinion is when you see people redoing their storefronts, there's some form of black metal awning or railing. Some of the even some of the pictures I showed, I I think I showed one down here. Even though this deck up here is mostly wood, you can see that the wrought iron stairwell that comes down is there. This up here and this deck right here is mostly all wood, but you can see around here has the metal I beams that are holding it, and the metal that's holding it up.

Kevin Kellogg, though, did send me a lot of other pictures that I attached to legislation of other decks that are just basically wood, and that was the original proposal. After we did discuss it, though, in a little more in length, and my my suggestion or recommendation that there should be some level of additional metal that's kind of partly somehow in the railing system to just give that sort of wrought iron to make it more consistent with our street lighting we have downtown, benches we have downtown, and just sort of that look that we have downtown that covers over our store buildings. There was there was some additional examples that was sent to me. So I can try

and pull up here just a second.

There is some additional recommendation or some examples that were sent to me by Kevin. One was this that they were willing to do, and the other one was this. I think either one of these, I would support. I have more of a preference for this one, I think, as term and just the railing itself to be used at the top rather than just all be wood. So they still have the wood look, but then the the the spindles themselves are metal. And that's the one I would support, but I would be willing to as staff recommend either one of those in terms of a revision to their original proposal. So I would recommend approval of their deck with this design for the railing system.

I like the combo too. The full metal would get too hot, giving the sunset. So procedurally, we're able to ask questions to the applicant before we make a motion, and then we're able to sort of deliberate after it's a motion on the floor. But we do have the applicant slash someone representing the the building here who can answer questions. Are there any question about the project?

The questions that I would have, they're more they're more about codes. So do I ask applicant or do I ask

You would ask staff.

Yeah. It's more about code. I can ask you this. How long do you expect the treated lumber to

last before it gets replaced? It's pretreated lumber. It could last

Ten years? You know? Years?

Well, I think most residential decks last longer than that unless somebody does absolutely no care.

That lasts ten to fifteen years.

So just remember that we have to ask questions that are germane to the actual legislation. This is about a certificate of appropriateness.

Very good.

My question is it says this the deck is gonna serve the second story apartment. So that's where that is their location to access and go into the apartment. No stairs. Okay. And it's gonna be smaller, so it's not gonna be able to have, like, seating out there? It's it's 10 by eight. Oh, okay. You said that. Okay.

Yep. Alright. No. No. They'll have seat.

Given the sir?

I'm just gonna pivot back to commissioner Ryman. We could ask the treated lumber question, and we also have our chief inspector. So you could weigh in and have that question asked as well.

When? No.

Yes. You can do it now.

I'd like to know if the lumber meets fire code and how long it's expected life expectancy is. Let's assume it won't be taken care of because most people don't take care of decks. So I'd like the low end like to know.

Chief Reinhart, you're on the call. Also, let us know if you heard the question from commissioner Ryman.

I did. Treated lumber is not fire treated, and estimated deck life without, any care is probably fifteen to twenty years.

Any follow ups for the chief?

Does that need fire code then for the city of La Crosse or a building of this type?

In the fire limits code, there's a provision that the fire chief may deviate from this code on a case by case basis, and the fire chief did deviate and say that this would the deck proposed would be allowed.

So it's allowed, but does not meet code. So it's an exception to the current code. Am I understanding this correctly?

Can I get up to show you this?

To Reinhardt, do wanna respond to that, though, before

I would

say exceptions. It meets code now because of the exception.

Hold on, chief Reinhart. There's discussion. The applicant has the fire code in print and then sharing it with commissioner Ryman. But commissioner Ryman, I would love for the chief to respond to that code question. Go ahead, chief Reinhart.

With the exception provided by the fire department, it now meets code.

Right. Okay. Follow-up question, chief Reinhart, to that. Is it regardless of whether it's wood or composite? Is it that it only should be metal under code?

In in my professional opinion, yes. Unless composite, would have some sort of fire rating to it.

K. Any other follow ups on the material? Any other quick thank you to you, Reinhart. Other questions for staff? Tim, do you wanna weigh in on that question? The material question? Wood material?

When it comes so in terms of wood for being used, I don't have any concerns with how they would use it. It comes to the building code question. I defer to a chief Reinhart.

Okay. So to clarify, you personally I don't wanna say like because we don't say like in terms of secretary

I think you would just terms of its appropriateness being you as a material being used in the downtown from the aesthetic point of view being a Okay. Mister chief Reinhart would be looking at it in terms of code compliance from his point of view, structural environments.

Got it. And so for context, typically, with these approvals, we say contingent upon approval by engineering and other department for inspections, and we've heard that it is approved for this circumstance. Wait. Any other question? Go ahead. Please don't be shy.

No. I I read here that the proposed

deck will

not be attached to the building because the brick is too soft. Is there any concern about stability from the building if they're going to be stepping out onto this? And if there's not any concern, is there any kind of ordinance that we need to follow as far as a a structure not attached to but being used by a building? I don't know if there's Good question.

It's gonna be constructed, like, flush up to the building. Mhmm. It's not attached to it. And the inspections department has already reviewed it, in my understanding, and, Einar, correct me if I'm wrong, to ensure that they would have to review it and ensure for any other structural capabilities that can actually be a free form structure without tipping. So that's what the steel tubes are. It's gonna be actually cemented into the ground where those footings are. You can see here Mhmm. All those steel tubes are. There's gonna be four of them.

That answers the question. If it's cemented into the ground, then then there's that. I didn't I'm I'm assuming that's correct with

the footing on the drawing. Is that correct, mister Rehner? They

would be required to meet any snow and wind load requirements per the state of Wisconsin, so we would ensure that it would be safe.

Good question. Other question.

Can I add to that? Yep. This, is being built by Steiger Construction, which is also part of Steiger Steel, which builds lots of, I think, some steels.

Bridges. Yes.

I think. It's also been the steel part has been designed by a licensed structural engineer who's actually the owner of Carrie's specialized services in La Crosse.

I I think this deck is so far below the ability of the vault that

yeah. I don't think it's going anywhere.

Sure. I'm just curious. The door that this is being built next to, that is that door added to the building, or what was that door for when it's

It used to be a window, and when they kinda replaced it with a door.

Okay. So it used to be a window. There never was a fire escape or anything

of that nature. I don't know that. If it was, it was long ago. Okay.

Yeah. To follow-up on that question, that part is or is not part of the certificate of appropriateness? It's a separated structure. This? Yeah. Like, we don't

It's already there. So don't have to have. Okay.

Laura, I don't know if this is time for now or discussion or never, show and tell historic photographs. That's okay. In other words? Yeah. Yeah. What do you do?

Pictures? Or Yes. You'd have to join this meeting and then share your screen to show the pictures.

She has physical pictures.

So you have

to verify.

You keep insomnia. Yeah. I don't have enough copies for everyone.

Oh, if you just wanna pass them around.

We done now? We don't the session. Right? I do have him on the computer too. These are just not printer.

You could join the meeting. Just go to that link I sent emailed you and join it, and share your screen, and I can stop sharing if if you feel it's relevant to the conversation.

Billing? Was it the person?

I think she saw there's she shot.

Yeah. That's here. Yep.

Are any structures that are showing my stool in the distance?

No. I don't think any. No. So oftentimes so we do wanna answer that with regard to the downtown district and following the precedents that exists? Well,

I think I would look at it in a sense what how balconies have historically been designed and what materials were used in the past is how I would personally look at it. And looking at these, I see a mix. Like, this one looks like it's all wood, but it's got really heavily spindles and columns. This one same with this one. This one looks like that's metal. That's wrought iron metal right there. Yeah. Right? This one looks like I I would be shocked if that wasn't actually stone.

Yeah. Looks like something.

And so I think it just kinda shows, like, there is no set thing. It can be a mix or that's how I would look at it. Right?

Well, and then, obviously, the, you know, more ornate and beautiful ones on the front of the elevation Yeah. Versus the wood one that looked to be in the back.

I got a question. Sure. What is would you see foresee the intended use of the step? Is it gonna be for the renters? Parties? What's it gonna be used for?

It's only accessible by the market.

So they can have a grill out there? I

don't know if they will or not. It hasn't been

thought of. If they do have a

grill out there, it actually has to be piped into the gas building by code. So it is a little bit more of a project to put a grill out there. I only know that because, again, the other buildings that I own in Downtown LaFrosse and my tenants always, I want a grill. Have a grill.

Plumbing? Because I I own a vacuum in my house, so there's just no there's no access to gas.

Well, it could

be done. It was just a No offense. It's just more

of a project than going and buying a gas grill. Be a

grill on that vaccine. Sure.

I don't think I don't think I think because of the fire limit, sir, there's you're only there's only a limited amount of what you can do. I don't think you can just have, like, a charcoal grill on the deck. Is that right, Dave? There's some limitations on what you can do for outdoor grills in the downtown?

I believe that's I think, that is correct. And that would have to be hard piped as stated.

A lot of the other buildings that come through for design review that are near the like, in our fire limits, the fire, fire department has said it has to be gas. Yeah. Gas pipes in. It can't be Understood. Yeah.

And that would be detailed in their lease agreement is how that would that you cannot do this. You cannot have a If

I was the landlord, I would. Yeah. So there's the sort of safeguard

to that.

Okay. So we're able to have more discussion unless somebody would like to make a motion, and then we can actually debate and kind of add input that way.

I move the request being granted.

Right. So there is a motion by commissioner Gallagher to approve, to clarify with the stated conditions on staff report, correct, which states recommended for approval with conditions on ornamental metal is worked into the decision of the railing. Tim, is there anything you'd add to that motion?

I guess I just wanna clarify with Mr. Kellogg. If if there was one of the two examples he sent me that you were planning on using or it makes no difference. We just if we were

to make part of the decision. They're open. Okay. This was, you know, originally drawn. Like I say, if you go around, there are ones that are just wood. Yeah. And so, you know, to have known ahead of time that it should have some metal in it wasn't known because there, first of all, weren't any you know, there aren't for decks, there aren't the details that are for most building or parts in the downtown historical. And then the

other is,

you know, the the drawing that was provided by the general contractor was provided as a this should meet code. Prove this to meet code. Mhmm. Yeah. Not approve this to meet Brady or downtown historic because it wasn't really intended that it was coming here. So, yeah, you know, that's that's fine. It wasn't turned in as a necessarily design standard with this committee.

So our approval would, to clarify, be fine with the metal and wood on both example two and example one? Okay. So that's the motion on the floor. Approve with the stated conditions and also that we would be approving example one or two. There's second.

I'll second that.

Second by commissioner Baines. Baines. Thank you. Now we're able to have discussion. You provide input on that, or if you don't agree with that original motion, you can make a sense.

Since I'm new to this Yeah. I I'm just not comfortable with this. I think this is historic preservation commission, and I believe that this the wood is not historically accurate, and it's also a danger and will not last long. So as is, unless the floor and the decking and the rails are all metal, I would not approve that personally. That's just how I feel. I apologize if I offend anyone or if they think that's wrong, but I kinda feel like if we're gonna do these things, we need to do it right. And I looked at some of those other decks, and they they don't look very good. Even if they're in the back alleys, they're not gonna be seen. But I just know what happens to wood decks with time. They don't last.

And I also am concerned with just the metal poles. They just they don't it won't look good as well. And if we can do something to improve the aesthetics of it, I might be on board. But right now, aesthetically, I do not support it. I don't as planned. So that's just how I feel. I don't feel like I can make any amendments. I don't wanna add a lot of cost to this. Just personally don't think that this fits the historic intentions of this commission or the historic appropriateness for the state.

Thank you, commissioner Ryman. Question on material. Does there exist a metal option for the board board?

The cost literally doubles. This was originally looked at as steel. The cost literally doubles. Mhmm. One of the pictures that Tim put in the original agenda Mhmm. I actually lived in that building when I was, like, 20 years old. Mhmm. That was the worst thing that was known to man. The slightest little bit of frost or anything got on that metal deck

That's okay.

And you went for a ride. This one right here?

No. The one above the

One behind, like, Kyle's property. Yeah. About that one. That that actually think you said it was wood before. That whole upper thing is actually steel. Oh. And if you go up and look at it, it's actually also all rusted down. The water that metal will never lay flat. Mm-mm. Shrinks and expands as the sun gets on it, and it gets little hole or little potholes in

it, if you wanna call them, just

like the streets and the water sits in them and they rust out.

Would be would be a grate would be a grate like the bridge used to be?

I don't honestly think most people wanna be walking around and seeing through. Mhmm. The

stairs going up, those are in the water?

There are no stairs in the stairs.

It's just okay. So it's not a that's what what my question was. Is that an entry for them to ask just a second? I would just Okay. Okay. So we can still ask questions. But, yes, this is open for debate at this point. It's on the floor.

The then I'll jump in. None of this is reproducing a Victorian deck that were in pictures. None of this is producing something that's pretending to be a Victoria deck that's been there. Metal deck, and I agree this is a problem with it getting too hot in the summer,

too cold in the winter.

I don't have a problem with wood or even some sort of fake wood. There are numerous types of wood. I just went to a home show, and there were so many different types of fake wood decks that looked like wood to me that I would consider that as

an option.

I don't see that there's any maintenance issues with the rest of the building. I don't see that there's any any neglect there, so I don't see that they would neglect the deck over the course of time also. Therefore, a wooden deck, just like a wooden window and a wooden railing somewhere, will be

is

what I see. So I don't have

a problem with that. Thank you. Other comments who have not opened? Tim, could you speak to the appropriateness of the wood deck? This is what's so hard. Right? Because we have to make a decision based on the appropriateness based on the Secretary of Interior Standards.

Well, again, this is where I think actually Laura's pictures kind of show that. I don't know if there's one set, you know, material that was used. There's even just going back as far as some of these older buildings that were in Lacrosse, they've been, you know, metal, masonry, or wood in some way. And so while I agree that many of the ones you see today aren't necessarily aesthetically attractive, you know, I I think I don't think there's even one material that's appropriate. And so we try to integrate some sort of elements for it.

I

don't think it's supposed to look like one of those either. We're not supposed to recreate like it used to look back in the day. It is still in an alley even though it is visible. And I think having some of those metal components incorporated into the overall design, I think, at least makes it, you know, more aesthetically pleasing than being completely wood. Yep.

That's just my opinion. Again, we don't have the best standards. Maybe that's something we as a commission look at for these since it's, like, have some more clear guidelines. These actual standards are probably getting close to being ten years old now. So if we wanted to have something more clear for Dex, that's something I think we a commission for the cap. Yep.

But I don't know.

I did okay. So the motion on the floor right now is to approve with the condition stated being okay with example one and two linked in. So at this point, if there's no further discussion and there's no one in here that says I absolutely don't want example two or I absolutely don't want example one, then I think we're probably ready to vote. Alright. I see no further discussion. Please say aye if you approve. Aye. Aye. So that's 12345 ayes. If you are opposed, say no.

No.

There is one no. The motion passes. I vote a five. Yes. One no. Thank you all for this discussion. I do really appreciate it. Thank you for being here and answering

your question

our our At this point, we're at the end of our agenda then. So if there's no objections, I will adjourn the meeting. And hearing no objections, we are adjourned. Have a safe holiday.