Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

I'll go to comments from the audience. If you would like to speak, this is your time. You'll have three minutes. Please either approach the podium or raise your hand on Zoom if you would like to give public comment.

We don't have anyone signed up in person, Chair.

Cool. Anyone on Zoom? This is the last call for this public comment period.

No? All right.

We will move right along. We have no special presentations. We have just a study session. I'll let staff take it from here.

thank you chair jameson um and good evening commission so um exciting opportunity tonight to do something a little different for both commissioners and staff and our guests here tonight from denmark so very thrilled to welcome the block sub team here to planning commission tonight we've been working with this team for the past several months in the totem lake southern industrial sub area and This really came about through a unique opportunity that we got through a Scan Design Foundation grant to help fund them to come over a couple times and really immerse themselves in the area, get to know the community a bit. And staff has been working closely with them on the ground out in the area to knock on doors, meet people, and engage in a slightly different way than we have on past projects. For the Commission tonight, we're not asking for any decisions, but wanted to share our progress in this visioning phase. It is a task on the adopted planning work program. I would really encourage the Commission tonight. We want to share a little bit of the expertise that these different folks bring and the perspective that they've offered us into the area. So this is a great opportunity for the Commission to be curious and ask questions and so would just encourage you to do that and as I understand we might have more conversation in the coming weeks about future phases of this totem lake southern industrial sub area so with that I'm going to hand it over to Martha who's been the project manager on this one she's going to give you a bit of an introduction of how we got here and then we'll hear a lot from blocks up tonight so Martha

Thank you, good evening. I'll present some background information about the area and the policies that we have in the comprehensive plan for the area. And then I'll pass it over to the Danish experts to present on our work and the inspiration that they've brought to us. So the Southern industrial sub area, which we've been calling the CIS, but we'll need a new name at some point, is the Southwestern corner of the Totem Lake neighborhood and growth center. It comprises of flexible large warehouse spaces that were historically light industrial and manufacturing uses, but have changed to a wide mix of uses over time. Today, they comprise of car repair shops, construction retail businesses, car dealerships, indoor recreation uses, a brewery, and also a couple of housing developments out there. And the Cross Kirkland Corridor, here, let me change this. The Cross Kirkland Corridor runs through the entire area north-south as you can see with the green line and it kind of creates this green spine and opportunity for access to the rest of the Totem Lake neighborhood as well as down south to central Kirkland. Forbes Creek also runs through the area on the southern end but it is tucked away behind parking lots and buildings today. So this work and study was prompted by a request that the city received a couple years ago from the Parmac property owner to rezone multiple parcels to allow for a mixed use high density residential development. And this request was put on pause, but it was the impetus of city council adopting new policy in the comprehensive plan to study the area and to explore how it could become more connected, safe, sustainable and livable while still respecting the character uses and businesses that make it unique today. So I've summarized the applicable comprehensive plan policies here for some context. The first is the newer policy to develop a sub area plan that meets these key objectives to retain businesses and the important buildings for the local economy and foster trail oriented development and increase affordable housing supply. The policy is very specific. and how this process will play out and this visioning work that we are presenting on today, phase one of that plan. The other policy specific to this area is to accommodate residential uses where appropriate within the area. So the existing zoning has limitations on where housing can be located within the housing incentive area shown in this map with the number four and So it can be located there as well as other properties as long as they are of a certain size and as long as the development includes other uses. So there's restrictions on housing. So this work that we have been doing with Blocks Hub, as we've all been mentioning, is phase one of the subarea planning process. And it's really focused on understanding the area and talking to businesses and really getting to know what's going on out there and how people view it. We've been, you know, kind of unveiling and seeing what's happening behind these blocks. big roll-up doors and behind these big blank walls and learning a lot about what people's understanding and experience is of the area. We've also been learning about and forming creative ideas and solutions that can help fulfill the policy goals and exploring the identity of the area for a potential rename. And as Allison mentioned, this work has been funded by a grant with the Scan Design Foundation and is the first step in this process. So with our friends here, we've gone out to the area and knocked on doors of all the businesses and talked to folks and really have heard that There's this whole kind of synergistic network of businesses. There's a lot of construction suppliers where they have one customer and then they say, oh, you need a door? Go down to my neighbor down the way. And so there's numerous businesses like that. There's indoor recreation businesses and other uses that really require these large warehouse spaces. that is at a relatively affordable rent rate. We also learned that they're generally happy with the way things are. They enjoy the accessibility to the CKC and to the Village at Totem Lake and to the freeway. Here's the indoor recreation businesses. And with our work with Blocks Hub, we've had some workshops and developed these ideas with the community and then sorted them out. And I'll let you explain all of it. To preface it, these ideas really help advance the sub-area policy goals because they are exploring the identity of the area. They're focused on retaining and fostering the existing businesses, the community, and the buildings, and about activating the CKC and increasing multimodal access across the area. And these ideas that they're going to present could be implemented into the phase two of the subarea plan and kind of help create a plan that meets the policy goals once we have the resources to do so. And with that, I'll pass it off to Sophie.

Is it working? Perfect. Thank you, Martha. So we are the group from Bloxhub, me and my colleagues.

This is my colleague Lotte and my colleague Selma over there.

And I just want to mention Selma might take some pictures. If you don't want to be in any of the pictures, just... type her on the shoulder afterwards, and we'll make sure that you are not included. We also brought our three experts from the BlocksHub ecosystem, and they will tell you much more about the ideas that we have developed through this process. But before that, I'll just give you some background on both what is BlocksHub, what kind of work do we do, what kind of work we've done in the US, and take you through the background and some highlights from this process that we've had with the city of Kirkland. The experts will also share some examples from their work, and then we'll go into the ideas. And we have put in some time for questions along the way, so you will have time to clarify. But first... Just a few words about Blocshub. So Blocshub is a member association in Denmark focused on urban sustainability. So we have around 400 member companies of many different sizes from different sectors and types of expertise, also from many different countries. We have around a fourth of our members are international. And what all of our members share is the belief in the BLOCKSUP mission, which is to co-create desirable urban futures. So that is our focus. BLOCKSUB is a combination of different things. We are a physical space in Copenhagen, where some of our members, around a third of them, they have their office space. Then we are the community, and the community of members and partners is kind of the core of BLOCKSUB. And the way that we work is that we include our members in different types of partnerships to solve urban challenges, both in Denmark, but also around the world, like we are doing with the city of Kirkland. The reason that we work with partnerships can be summarized by this quote, the world is becoming too fast, too complex, and too network for any company to have all the answers inside. So that's kind of our guiding stars in all the types of work that we do. So in BLOCKSUP, one of our main regions of focus has actually been the US. And we have worked with many different partners around many different types of urban challenges across the country. But one of the regions where we have experienced one of the say the highest values or synergies when we do projects is actually the Pacific Northwest. And we've been working here for a few years, of course, with Kirkland, also with the city of Tacoma, I've also been in Vancouver. And one of our main partners is the ScanDesign Foundation, who has also provided the grant for this project and for previous collaborations with the city of Kirkland. And the ScanDesign Foundation's mission is to advance Danish-American relations focused on environmental sustainability. So they are very interested in supporting this kind of work. Just one highlight from a project we did with the city of Tacoma, you probably know, and maybe you also know that they have been struggling a lot with post-COVID. Some people call it the doom loop or urban decline of the city center. So they needed some new perspectives and we helped them coming up with new solutions on how to approach this issue. This was a long process, but it resulted in a playbook of principles and an action plan, including initiatives for how to work with this type of challenge. Now, I mentioned that we've done some collaborations with Kirkland also in the past. We were actually here back in 2024, where we did a project focused on Houghton Village and how to transform that site into a more sustainable neighborhood. Those are one of the collaborations we've done with cities over the past few years, and they've been kind of building up this foundation for us doing this project now. So the ScanDesign Foundation was interested in exploring new opportunities for other ways we could collaborate. So that's how we started exploring the opportunity of transforming this southern industrial sub-area with the Kirkland team. So we had a process of scoping out and identifying this challenge. And then we created a funding application for ScanDesign Foundation, who granted this project that we initiated in the beginning of this year. And then the first step, when we do any kind of project, we involve some of our member companies. And it all starts with the challenge. So we ask ourselves, OK, to solve this particular challenge that we are working with in this region, what types of expertise do we need to involve? So we selected a group of multidisciplinary experts from the ecosystem and invited them to join the process. And those are the three people next to me that will also share a bit more. And I want to just highlight the kinds of expertise we have here. So we have both architects, focused on building transformation and transforming urban areas. We have expertise in nature, also transforming urban areas, landscape architecture, and then community engagement. And I want to give Sofie, who is a landscape architect from the company called Schönherr, a chance to share a few examples of the types of work that you do and some references that are also relevant to the project that we have done here.

Great. Am I on? Okay, good. So nice to meet you. My name is Sophie, and I'm an urban planner working at Schönherr Landscape Architecture Company, so doing urban planning and landscape planning, and have a special interest in these old industrial areas and their special aesthetics and special possibilities. I'm just going to introduce a part of how we work, our working method, and then go through two different projects, one still in planning and one is realized. This is what we always do when we start a new project. It's to investigate the natural foundation of a specific site, the site we're working with. How is the terrain? How is the hydrology, the water systems, the geology, the soil types, vegetation? And then we look at the cultural foundation, everything man-made on top of this, our natural foundation. So infrastructure, buildings, area use, culture, archaeology, the stories about a site, how it's used, and also how we have changed the vegetation. geomorphed the area. And then we do a mapping afterwards, selecting the most interesting, for us the most valuable findings from our investigations. We do an assessment, we do a prioritizing, and we always create a narrative from that. So here is some archaeologists on work. They excavate everything. They list everything they find. But it is not everything that ends up at the museum. They choose the best pieces that creates a narrative that they want to promote.

OK.

So the first project I want to go through very fast, is this neighborhood on . It's a semi-abandoned industrial area with many different building typologies. It's a rather large area. And we've been working with it for a couple of years. First, we did this master plan for the area. We worked a lot together with the local community and the landowners, the neighbors of the area. So it's also been a process where we kind of lifted the knowledge about the site and gave new perspectives on this area that they know very well. Here are some images from the site. It's not spectacular in any way. It could be anywhere in Denmark. There are no spectacular buildings. It's like ordinary buildings, cheap surfaces. An area where most people think it's a really ugly place, maybe a bit scary, a bit empty, a lot of fences. But when you start looking more into it, you experience, oh, there's some special atmospheres in different areas. Some buildings have unique features. When we talk to the owners, they start elaborating on their businesses, how it's created, who was the founder. People who had had a huge impact on the development of the city created workplaces and changed the city through many, many years of work. I always think when you just start looking into it, you always find special things in the most non-special areas, and it becomes kind of magical. This is like our main concept for developing the area. It is to map all the existing buildings and take care of these existing buildings, map all existing vegetation on the area, and then do transformation of the existing buildings, not tearing anything down, but finding the right future use of the existing buildings. and then adding new buildings as infill between the existing buildings. So really taking care of what is there and adding to it. We have been going through all the buildings on the site. This is just a few of them. I think there's 70-something different buildings. And did this screening of them to learn more about how they can be utilised in the future. And in Denmark, we have a very strong tradition of screening cultural heritage. And we have a system for that. But not very many buildings here will pop out as special on a cultural heritage screening, because they are super ordinary. And they've been changed a million times. And that's kind of the thing with an industrial area. It adapts. So that is kind of the essence of it, not the original state of the building. So we added some other perspectives, like identity. How can these buildings add identity and uniqueness to a mixed area in the future? What kind of urban life? Another perspective. Can these buildings facilitate? Is it easy accessible? Does it have some special features, some special spaces? What is the transformation potential of a building? Is it scaled in a way so it could be transformed into a housing? Or is it too deep? Could it be transformed into offices or sports facilities, or should it stay as a workplace? And then we've been mapping the embedded CO2 and other materials in the buildings. So as you can see, they end up scoring very differently, some very much on one perspective, others very much on all, and a few almost not on any of them. And that's a really good starting point for a conversation about the future and the possibilities of each building. Then we wanted to create a path through this area that has been very closed off from the surroundings. It's like you have the CKC in the CIS area. You are really lucky that you have it, because this has been the most difficult part of this project to get all the landowners to agree on where to create this path. It can't be broken. It has to be coherent. Otherwise, it doesn't work. But this is like a really important opening act of the transformation to connect with the surroundings and make a natural corridor through this area so it becomes a part of the neighbor's everyday life. The next thing we're going to do is to do some testing of utilizing existing materials from the site. A huge amount of the surfaces are covered with this specific SF stone. It's called in Danish. I don't know if you have something similar, but it can take a lot of load from trucks. It can last for like 10,000 years or something like that.

But it's not very pretty.

And it's, yeah, there are huge surfaces. So the idea is to try to utilize it in a different way. So try to lay them in different patterns in gravel so you get a more warm tone and a different kind of texture than the way you used to see it. So again, using what is there, but twisting it, make it a bit different to, yeah, to make a really strong identity for the area and a uniqueness for the area. The other case, it is realized, this plan is realized, it's an old freight railway in Aarhus, the second biggest city in Denmark. The old train station moved and there was a rearrangement of the usage of all these real area, so this was abandoned at a point in time. And it's in the middle of the city. And the transformation of the area started with a small institution that called themselves Instituto 4X. that moved in there and got a temporary permit for doing actor engagement activities and bottom-up projects. And then small businesses wanted to open there, someone making food and someone making ceramics, and they did events and a female skating facility, and so it just grew. And then at one point in time, we got engaged with the project and did this master plan for the area and a landscape plan for the area, but trying really to use what is there, but bring it into a different future. But not abandoning the history of the site, but using this scruffy, weird space to create something super unique, unpolished, in the middle of Aarhus, which is a very polished city. Some basic principles that have been the foundation of the transformation, and one of them is that the area should be experimental and untamed. Another one is that it should serve as a hub for the city and really connect people. Here is an image of a part of the area today. And in some ways, it looks a bit like it has just been abandoned. But if you look a little closer, you can see that there's care for some details. So it's a different kind of aesthetics to introduce in Aarhus. But it works really, really well, especially with this, you can see in the background, this Institute for X. It just grows with a huge amount of activities. So it's become like a really unique space in Aarhus. This is another meeting spot in the area. The architecture school moved in just behind it. So they're starting out with creating community in the area and doing these transformations that are very based on what is already there. Yeah? Yeah?

Commissioners, thoughts, questions?

Questions or comments?

Commissioner Rutherford?

I actually like the brick pattern that you like. You described that as... you know, maybe industrial or less desirable. But, you know, one of the frustrations I've felt here across North America is, you know, we have this obsession with concrete everything. And, you know, our sidewalks are all concrete. And I wish that we were better instrumented to use things like those pavers where you can, you know, then if you If you need to rework because of tree roots or utilities underneath, you can pull them up and dig up in a narrow trench and then replace them down. My understanding is that it's more expensive perhaps up front, but then the long-term maintenance of it, it ends up being more economical and

environmental benefits as well so you know i'm i love to see you know sorts of um trial you know like try things out what it is use it as a proving ground and it's not a common thing to do the common thing to do is to throw them in the harbor and use them as landfill really yeah that is what is done and i don't know how many thousand kilometers of denmark covered in exactly that stone but yeah But we have to change some methods and habits. And right now, it's easier just to buy some new stones, produce new stones, and throw the old ones out and lay the new stones. But we should change the systems so it's easier to use what you have right in front of you instead of digging up gravel from a mine somewhere. chalk and whatever we need to produce concrete.

But yeah, if you do find patterns of materials that exist in this area that we could potentially reuse, I mean, I'm sure the railroad ties are probably long gone that were pulled up. But yeah, who knows? You might find something in the archeology of that.

Commissioner Reiser?

So in comparing the two areas, our industrial area is very inhabited. How do you work with that and probably residents that are a little bit resistant to want to change? Because you kind of mentioned that you're your sub-industrial zone was a little bit less inhabited than what our... I think one of the reasons why it is is rents are so high, and that seems to be a very reasonable area for businesses to survive.

Well, yesterday we went around in the area and knocked on doors. We split up in three groups so we could cover a large part of the area and talk to business owners. And our impression is that people in general are, like, really, really happy about being at the place. It's tidy and proper. It's close to the highway. And you have the CKC, so you can have a nice break, or you can bike to work. Yeah, and we met several people who are in trouble because of, yeah. Rising rents. Yeah. But our intention is not to kick anyone out. And the businesses in the area are not in the way for developing the area. The first case I showed, ,, there are two businesses that has to move. And I'm in a dialogue with the municipality about it. And that's because one of them is a gas production facility. So you can smell it everywhere in the air. And you can't build housing close to that because it's, yeah. And the other one makes a lot of noise. But the rest of the businesses we want to keep in the area. So it's also about creating a city that functions in a different way than we normally see it. And we have to deal with the trucks. We need to find a way to get them in and out of the area so it doesn't cross too many roads. So we have like... a lot of safe zones and a very few places where the trucks go in and out. But you could say the future for the CIS is not decided. We don't know if there is going to be more housing or if there's going to be more businesses or if there's going to be more recreational spaces. That is like a completely open thing.

But the ideas we're going to present in half an hour

You could see them as a foundation for a change and an improvement of the area, creating a foundation for making it more diverse, used. But, yeah. If there should be introduced more housing, it's not up to us. I don't know how the process would be.

But when we ask people out there, they are not opposed of more housing. They just want to be there as well. So they don't think it is necessarily if there's housing, I can't be here. So we don't meet anyone saying, no, no, no, no housing. If they say it, it's because they have fear to be pushed out in general.

Would you like to add, Martha?

Thank you. No, no, that is very, I think, informative. And the area is changing. And it is trying to accommodate all the different factors that are going to be part of this area.

Vice Chairman Dayot?

Thank you. I just have to try to say this. Is it Felser Fife? Is that close? Not even close. Yeah, I tried to spell it phonetically. I butchered that. But Commissioner Reiser kind of asked a similar question on that. So the question I have with regard to that visionary, those circles that look at different screening components for the site, is that part of this body of work? Would that be kind of the next phase? That was an example in one of your cities, but would that be part of this work for our CIS site?

It isn't right now. Okay. We haven't been analyzing every building on the zone.

So that would be a subsequent kind of exercise to understand those components?

Yeah. One of the things that are very unique about your area here is that many of the buildings have the exact same construction. So they are very similar, but they just vary in length and depth. While the ones in the Felstersvay neighborhood are like all typologies you could imagine in a huge mixture. So I think it's way more easy to work with your area because the buildings are so similar.

And then is there much similarity to the work that you did in Totem, sorry, Tacoma post-COVID? That looked more like just a vacant retail downtown. Was it industrial repurposing? It was not, because I was curious if it was similar, how the reaction in a sister city was.

I think the Tacoma project was similar in some ways. We developed the action plan that I mentioned was kind of a set of eight different initiatives, so different tools or different ways to approach transforming the downtown. So we covered a variety of themes. We didn't do a building analysis in the sense like Sophie mentioned. It could be ideas like creating a food hub or student space, improve the lighting in the city. How do we utilize parking spaces differently? So there were a lot of subtopics, but kind of as an a catalog for inspiration for the next steps for the city.

Their main challenge was called Feet on the Street.

So they wanted more people downtown.

I think we can continue with the presentation.

Yeah. So my name is Alexander and I work as an architect in Copenhagen for the company 3XN GXN. I'm an associate and has been working there for eight years now. We are a very cross-disciplinary studio. So that means we're not only architects, but we are also anthropologists, engineers, really sort of trying to bring the best team to the projects and the competitions we engage with. We are collectively 200 people, where 90% of our projects are outside of Denmark. That means we have a lot of surface to touch, a lot of different contexts to bring experience from, which also shows in the projects we bring to the world. Many different typologies, programs, schemes, everything from products to buildings to master plans. But something that we have experienced very sort of arising and has become the new normal is that we are no longer starting from a clean, you could call it a white canvas. There's always an existing building and the question is no longer that it's something that needs to be teared down and we are to build something new. And this is not only coming from the architects, it also comes from the developers and the entrepreneurs around the world. The new standards are set. And if we're not meeting these requirements and growing the tools through our in-house engineers to actually understand these existing structures and measuring the energy impact of them, we can't compete on this level. So how joyful it is to have an extra challenge as an architect. We've really sort of grown our skill set to understand how we could extend these structures into our new designs. Because when we look at the footprint we as architects and the building structure are making, We are facing a massive loss in value and materials and time and education from a picture like this, where we are really, really skilled at building new structures. But when it comes to demolishing them or reuse them, it looks like this. And there is just too big a loss and too big a lost opportunity to actually regain that. So throughout the last couple of years, we have done everything in research to sort of understand these structures. This is a 60s housing complex that was spreaded out large areas of Denmark, and they all built from concrete elements. A lot of them have went obsolete today, but the structures they are based on is actually quite modular. So understanding how we are not just demolishing them, but actually taking them apart so we can reintroduce them in new designs and new lives. So asking the questions, are we as people who are hunting a dream of a small family ready to live amongst reused modules, reused materials, new ways of understanding the dream of a one family home? Because the market is not what it used to be. It's less affordable, less difficult to enter the market. So understanding how we can do of material scarcity, but also the economy, reintroduce some of the existing value out there. So instead of demolishing a building like this, we want to carefully take it apart and reintroduce it. And that's something we actually did on the site, just in other typologies, so the whole neighborhood becomes more of a mix, building in between existing structures. And the developer who was a part of this project actually gained so fond of the idea that he bought a couple of these modules himself. And then he wanted to retrofit one of his warehouses to sort of extend the values of the projects into the company's identity itself. So a warehouse like this, very common, very basic, was transformed to a vibrant workspace where the identity of the company was shown in the way that we built. And basically, it's about moving away from a linear construction idea of building new and throwing away to actually demolishing in a more sensible way where we are reintroducing the existing values, which works as material banks around our urban streetscape. So another project far, far away in Ljubljana in Slovenia, the southeast of Europe. We were introduced to a client who owns a lot of land, massive mall area with different shops, different typologies, everything from office to malls to warehouses. But one thing he faced, or they faced, was that at first they were not 100% sure of how many square meters and what kind of typologies, but one thing they were 100% sure of is that they did not need or meet the energy requirement levels set out of Europe. So if these volumes were to be relevant for the market in 10 years, something needed to happen. So the idea was to go from an EFG energy certification up to at least an A or A or B. So how do you do that with obsolete structures that are using way too much energy to either heat or cool throughout the year? So we started to analyze both the malls, understand the long dark hallways, the hardscapes with no greenery, the no water management. We understand that the office facilities that were kind of small and dark as well. And we looked into the warehouses. The warehouses was the main typology on this site, just as they are on this location. And what was interesting here that I think it was taking up 45% of the typologies. So starting to understand the depth and the programming of these warehouses, how they are today, but also how we could gain more light into these, how we could reprogram them into have some of the more, you could say, technical programming in the center and then the social hotspots around the areas, really opening up these warehouses, exactly what we are seeing today. You're walking around the site at the CIS area and you have no idea what goes on inside of them. As soon as you stick your head in, there's so much life in there, so much things going on. And trying to open up some of these facades, connecting the people out there, connecting the community also in between themselves, is really something we think could be exciting as a first step. So looking at this at a warehouse over time and how you could retrofit it, almost maybe creating a tool case to actually do so, to engage with your own building. energy optimize it and actually retrofit it to become a part of the future vision of the CIS area. So it could potentially be something really exciting because the structures out there are really unique and they take up 80% of the site out there. So if we develop a model to actually engage with these warehouses, we could do a lot of different things. And we can even arrange the areas situated around the blocks out there, making it more human friendly. We could start to cover it, making pathways, making water management and so on, really make it an interesting neighborhood. So understanding an area like this in phases where phase one is probably something you would experience today in the ideas that we showcase you here in a couple of minutes, but also having a clear vision and idea of the identity and the place this neighborhood should become, I think is super important to have sort of a focus. So every time you take a decision based on this neighborhood, you know which direction you're going. I just wanted to bring in one last project to understand the engagement in scale of this manor within the same topic of transformation. This is a competition we won seven years ago. The building just finished two years ago, but it's still one of my favorite projects. The competition was set in the sea to demolish 1960s towers in the center of Sydney, right behind the opera. And we came back to the competition with the proposal of retaining the tower, stripping it off a little bit, but then re-enhancing the existing structure and extending each floor step with another 1,000 square meters, making it relevant for the market once again. Because the leasing options in Sydney were required with 1,500 square meters per floor to make it relevant. Under that, it was so difficult to lease. So understanding the market when you do the transformations is key. And here we were able to cut off and extend, but by retaining the existing structure, we were saving a lot of money, but also materials. And I would say even more important time. We saved nine months of building permanent time in the middle of Sydney business district. And when you have an agreement or when you have an argument like that towards the city, they will allow you to do potential structures like this, where you are stripping it off from the old facade, you are reinforcing the structure, and you are saving nine times of building period in a very, very busy district. And so I think the question that was asked before, how do we do this? I think it starts with understanding the warehouses which are there. And it starts by starting to reinforce the existing structures. So whatever those structures would meet in the future, you could potentially develop into housing or something else. But it's keeping what's there. It's keeping the businesses. Yeah. Reactions?

Commissioner Buñuel.

Yeah, one of my, I guess, how do you put it, bugaboos is in reimagining buildings and green building or just a new development when old buildings are demolished, so much of it ends up in a landfill. And to me, when you're putting perfectly good materials in a landfill and then you're saying you're building something green. I don't feel like, I don't know that there's a net positive with that, maybe in the long run, because you have a building that's more energy efficient, whatever, but the construction process is extremely wasteful. And I'm not sure about European standards, but here in the U.S., I've been on building sites, and the stuff that ends in a dumpster is just deplorable. So I was wondering, in those buildings that you reuse, How much of that building ends up in a landfill? How much of it actually gets recycled somewhere else into a use? And actually, how much gets recycled back into the building? Or do you know?

Yeah, well, I think... When we are to do with projects like that, the smaller it gets, the easier it is to deal with, but the less of an impact it has. And the success to these, you would say, large scale reuse project is the amount and the scalability of it. The more there is, the easier it is to make the except flipped to where it becomes a healthy business. Another point is that if you have to start from scratch all the time, it also becomes really expensive. And there is a huge risk from the entrepreneur to go into this project because they don't know how to do it. So what we need to do is to create certain standards, guides, frameworks for allowing them to actually maybe at first even take the risk, but then afterwards to keep on mapping and certifies these solutions. So the next time they're doing it, they don't have to reinvent something new. They can lean against what's already existing. And it starts with small scale, it starts with pilot projects, but the mapping of the process and the certification of what comes out of it in collaboration with the architect, the builder, the engineer, the people who are taking it apart, needs to be the ground for this success here.

And then when you were going around to the different warehouses in the, it's always Parmac to me. I'm not sure when those warehouses were built. I'm guessing post-World War II, probably 50s, 60s. Did you get a sense of when they're built? I just wonder after 60, 50, 60 years, what kind of structural shape is the basic building in shape? you know, is it worth or are they able to be reworked or restructured? I don't know what the English term is, but is it a viable option? Is what's existing, can it be made better from what you saw out in that area? Or I'm sure they didn't let you go root around their foundations and such, but, you know.

That's a good question. That would be the next step. Like, I've had the pleasure to be out there, what, four times now, and yesterday we really came into the structures, and they are all within the same dimensions, and there's very, very little difference in how they are built. They are mostly a hybrid structure of columns, concrete columns, and a wooden top, and then you have wooden columns in the center. It's really beautiful. When you look up into the ceiling and you see the wood and you see the structure, it's definitely something you want to retain. But they look healthy. So I haven't been screwing in the base of them, but they do look healthy.

Because that building we were in yesterday was mostly, I think, cinder block, but what we call cinder block construction, where you get a lot of warehouses which are kind of slab concrete. But that isn't the case out there, because I think Those were probably built before that was an instruction norm.

So in between the structure, you have the cinder blocks.

Yeah.

Those cinders are beautiful. They are quite flexible.

Okay. Thank you.

Next, we'll have Commissioner Nolan, and I believe Commissioner Rosman after her.

Well, thank you. So I had a question just for, I mean, a lot of the slides you were showing us showed these very beautiful kind of redos, if you will, of industrial space. But I'm wondering how you found that just public acceptance towards living in some of these spaces works when maybe you have the one place that has become this beautiful brand new airy apartment building, but then it is completely surrounded by all of these places that remain, you know, auto body shops or machine shops or, you know, other, you know, I mean, clearly industrial spaces can get a lot uglier and nastier than that. And then kind of just tailing onto that, I was also curious just about the remediation work, because some industrial spaces have leached some incredibly unpleasant things into the surrounding area and just kind of how that level of remediation is dealt with, because it's one thing to have, you know, an oil spill and something that's, you know, meant for repairing cars. It's another thing to have an oil spill in a backyard where a five-year-old or a toddler might be digging up dirt and eating it.

Well, I'll start on it, and Alexander will respond. But actually, I'm going to quote Sophia, that there is a huge amount of people that really like to live near other people that are actually doing something. You know, when in residential areas, you live next to people that are not doing anything. They're living there. But in the mixed situation, as long as it doesn't smell or as long as it doesn't produce very high sounds, there is a huge amount of interest in living next door and experiencing the the life of a shop or a production or whatever it is of the types that are in season at this moment.

I'm really looking forward to show you some of the ideas that we're going to present in a little while, because they address what you are addressing, the aesthetics of the area and creating it into a more vibrant, downscaled, livable area with some other experiences than the blank walls and the large sealed surfaces. So in a minute, in two minutes. Yeah, we're going to go through some of those ideas.

Yeah, maybe just my take on your question there. We had a pretty exciting conversation yesterday also talking about the expected what you are to expect when you buy a new home. And we looked over at what is being developed on the site, which is beautiful and exciting. 200 square meters for a new family with two carports and a guest room and three ovens and wardrobes in every bedroom. And I think... also to address how the market is developing and to make it more affordable, reaching towards and out to the youth and young families. I think the whole idea of how you could live and to which scale you could live, what you could share, could be really, really something that could be tested or implemented at this site. Make it a test field for it using references from around the world to actually see some of these square meters that could be shared in between family homes. And down to practical matters, I think it's definitely something to do with zoning. So you're not walking on top of where you're fixing cars, but the excitement of the contrast in between the working environment and the living environment is only something that I see as a potential positive thing if you do it right. Yeah.

I have a couple there. Yeah. Commissioner Nolan, do you have a quick response to that?

Yeah, this was just kind of my, I mean, my worries. I mean, you mentioned kind of the, you know, the smells or the noise, but of course, unless you're really able to zone out industry that might, and I mean, I might be biased because I come from the chemical industry where things are very noisy and very smelly as well as often very deadly. But, you know, there is a bit of a question as to like, how do you ensure that you're zoning in a way that you don't have these concerns where, again, you do have people. But yes, I'll hand the torch.

Thank you, Commissioner Rosman.

Well, I guess I'll respond a little bit to that and then I'll add my other comments. But I would imagine too that it's going to take a couple of projects. The first one's going to be hard, but once there are two, three, four buildings, I feel like that's where it really starts to change a community into somewhere that's like cool to live rather than like the vanguard of living in an area. And then you were talking about size of square feet. My family lives in 125 square meters and we feel like we have plenty of room. So I am definitely for the conversation about how do we make more of our housing not be nearly as large as what we're seeing. But I also just as an FYI, while you're look, I don't know how much more you're looking into this. I think your contract continues for a while yet, or you're done after today. Okay. I was just going to mention that the state passed a couple of existing building conversion legislation over the last couple of years that should help some of this conversion from existing buildings to residential. So and it deals with energy code and all that sort of stuff. So but I guess that's the city is aware of those. So.

We'll have time at the end of the meeting for more comments from the audience.

But you can also speak to staff separately.

Anything else from commissioners? Do we have a quick thing, Commissioner Rutherford? Or can it wait? Because I think we've got a bit more of the presentation to go through.

I do have a question after Rodney, just a quick one. Okay. I think I can go fairly quickly. I think there are some important points there about what we're seeing built today, and there is a bit of a market fixation on the price per square foot, which creates this incentive of maximizing the interior space so that you have a larger denominator. Learning about what are the ways that we can help shift that mindset, I don't know, but it's something I'd like to learn more about. I've learned that We have to be aware of our building codes in North America are quite different from much of the rest of the world, and I know there's a growing interest on mending that. Yeah, single stairs, yeah, that's a hot topic right now. I love the explorations on repurposing old buildings and incremental adaptation over time and envisioning how that might happen within a realization that that might also change further down the road as you see what the opportunities and needs are. And I love, once again, seeking those opportunities to reuse and finding the Lego pieces that can be repurposed and used to build something new. That's really awesome. I dream of finding something like that here. I have no idea if there's any hope of that, but I love the mindset, at least.

Commissioner Reiser?

Right. I think that's amazing. And I think it's a path that we should take. One of the concerns I have is that area is so car centric. And if you look around all of those warehouses, it's a sea of parking lots. I think that's the biggest challenge. How do you accommodate the workforce that is coming in and So much of it is, yeah, they're bringing their tools, they're taking deliveries, they're dropping off cars to be repaired, and yet move away and attract maybe a group of people who are less car-centric and, you know, use transit or the Cross-Kirken Corridor. And I think that's probably one of our... challenges in that area because that's the one thing that we hear not so much from residents in that area but the surrounding area. Their huge concern is right now traffic is very difficult and with the growing population how how are they going to be affected and I think their concerns which I love the repurposing because I Another one of the big concerns is the most cost-effective building to be built right now is the hardy board-sided, very large box. And that isn't being taken very well by the population surrounding it. So I love what repurposing these buildings and keeping character in the area. But my concerns are how do we deal with all the blacktop? How do we deal with getting people out of their cars and still have some transit or deliveries and people getting to and from work that are going to be retained in the area?

Super concerns, and I think we should actually move on to some of the ideations, the connections of ideas that we have made, because there's potential answers to some of the questions you're asking, or some of the comments, I think. What do you think?

Yeah, I'm absolutely right, but I completely share your concern. We heard many of the business owners talking about traffic and traffic jams in specific places. And I really think that one of the next steps is to get an overview of what is the situation actually like. You can't base decisions on stories, personal experiences like that. You need some numbers on the table.

So that would be a really good step in the further work with the area.

Let's move on to some of our ideas are going to address exactly what you mentioned.

Thank you for these perspectives. In the spirit of moving on quickly to the ideas, I'll just put a few words to the process that has led us to this final set of ideas that we'll share in just a moment. We started back in April gathering input from the community and then we've had a series of different activities including a first ideation workshop that we did six weeks ago when we came here the first time and we came out of that with a really, really long list of ideas. We've then had a process of refining and narrowing down this set of ideas to these final headlines that we will share. And I'll just highlight a few examples from the activities. So back from the very first stakeholder engagement, we kind of got an initial overview of some of the key challenges and opportunities in the area. which then helped guide us in designing the first workshop that we did right in this space, where we developed this very, very long list of really great ideas. Based on this first workshop, we developed what we call a strategic compass. So we actually took all of the input and the visions shared at this workshop from both the city and the local stakeholders in the area, developed a draft vision that you can see here and some key principles to guide how we selected which ideas to move forward with. Then in these past during this week on Tuesday and Wednesday, we've been continuing to work on these ideas together with the city, describing them in further detail, getting their input. Yesterday, like some of you know, we went into the area and presented these ideas for the community to get further feedback, and we've been integrating that feedback in the ideas that we will share. in a minute. Before that, I will just mention the next steps. After we leave today, we are going to take the ideas and create a report with a description of design concepts that can be used as inspiration for future planning for the area. And we will also be developing some communications material to share these learnings both locally and at a regional scale. And I will pass the word on to our experts.

Through this long process, we've been boiling the ideas down to nine concepts. And you should think of these ideas as inspirations. Some of them are connected to each other, but they're not interdependent. They can be tested out in a small scale and then scaled up. The first one is about the connection to the CKC. You're really lucky that you have this trail going through the site and connecting it to a huge, huge area surrounding it. But on the site, the CKC is not very easily accessed in many stretches. There are fences. There is terrain that you have to crawl up and down. There are wetland areas along the trail. So in many stretches, it's very difficult to access. And there are very few access points from the different plots to the trail. There's been made this master plan for the corridor. And some of the stretches have been realized not within the CIS site, but in other places. These are some images taken by Alexander of areas along the trail with the art installations and the bridges. Many different kinds of bridges connecting to the CKC.

A few.

Two bridges are in our area, in the CIS area. And this one has been established since we were here the last time. And it gives access to a housing construction site from the Toll Brothers to inspire people to come and look at the test apartments and be inspired to buy an apartment here. Yeah, some images of the obstacles you have to deal with to access the trail. They come in many different shapes. But the idea is about detecting where is the optimal connection path to the trail. What should you connect to? Schools, institutions, housing areas? amenities within the area like the sports facilities. So mapping out in the neighboring area but also zooming out in a larger area to figure out how can this be a strategy to make a way more coherent area for pedestrians and bicycles. And then afterwards you should reserve the space Maybe not establish all the connections right away, but reserve the space legally so they won't be built across it. So step by step, when the timing is right, you can realize one section, another section, and then slowly let it all grow together. And the next idea is to do what we call a treasure mapping. Because when we have visited the area, there are so many interesting spots that you don't really just You don't know. You don't come by them by coincidence. But yeah, there are many super interesting businesses in the area, some also extrovert businesses. There are many different interesting nature spots in the area. So the idea is to map out all the highlights of the area. It can be of any kind. And then do this route. on a physical map that you can hand out, this is a good route to take in the area. And it can be changed during time as the area develops. And it can be a way to motivate the business owners to open up towards this experience route. Maybe the tortilla factory can sell tortillas directly through the gate on Saturdays or on Wednesdays. The cake factory, the cookie shop or the macaron factory can sell macarons directly at the place. Maybe they can make a small cafe or something like that. But to open up the area through this kind of mapping, two drawings showing mapping out the treasures and doing this explorer route. This is some of the findings from the site, some spectacular small experiences. We don't know what's behind. Yeah, what the story is. I don't know if you know it, but my imagination, it goes crazy when I see this. Well, yeah. Well, on the right, I thought it was a stone, but it's a gigantic concrete block in the middle of the forest with graffiti on. How did that end up there? But it's fascinating to see. We found this extremely cool basket facility. We don't have anything in Denmark like this, an interactive basket facility. But you can see it from the outside. It's just a box with a sign. Yeah, you have the Malmström Brewery also, and a super wonderful spot. You should definitely be on this exploration route. And so many interesting, if you are into cars, there's a lot to look at in the area. And maybe it could also be interesting to open up to some of the housing projects, like the Tall Brothers, and adding them as a stop on this trail. Yeah. I do all three? No, you do this one. The next idea is wayfinding and wall murals. The Kings County have done the same design for a wayfinding system that they're going to implement on their part of the CKC.

Maybe it should be implemented on

Yeah, on Kirkland's stretch also, but there's a lot of good features about it, but we think you need something else to guide people around in this area. Small signs like these are going to disappear between these huge buildings, and you have another potential in doing wayfinding within the area. For example, these... huge closed facades. It could be really interesting to work with the wall murals on these facades. Some examples of what it could look like. Painting directly on what is there. Again, use what is there. And use the scale, because the scale is also fascinating. To feel small and to experience a different space. Also something you can see on a distance in this area. Yeah, we found out that you have these trolls. We have these trolls also in Denmark. And they're just a really good invitation to go to visit a place that you don't know. And this is just a fun setup, the troll dragging the boat on land. But in the background, there's also another way to do wayfinding. It's also just a giant old factory. But by naming it, it's a tunnel factory. They used to produce elements for tunnels. We created a tunnel to Sweden. So it's so simple. Just name the building, and then it gets a personality that it didn't have before. Yeah, some of the walls, they have more or less the same color, all of them. Maybe it could be local artists doing these murals. Some examples, one from Seattle on the right side. Really beautiful, this industry. Giant, giant mural, and an example from Copenhagen. On an old gigantic warehouse, there's this painting of a wolf. And the area is going to undergo a transformation. This is a future scenario. It doesn't look like this today. The only thing that is there today is the warehouse with the wolf on, but it's become a centerpiece of creating this new identity for the area. Yeah? And maybe you have some thoughts and reactions to this?

Just for your info, there are the first three

Yeah.

Next three, last three.

Perhaps if anyone has any urgent thoughts, share them now. Otherwise, we might want to continue.

Yeah, we can continue. We'll go forward. So keep on touching upon the landscape part, what goes on in between the buildings. We sort of... As you talked about before, there's a lot of parking out there. There's a lot of hardscape. And now coming from working with this project for six, seven weeks now, we're starting to have an idea of what could go on out there. But the first facing and step would be to try to understand what that hardscape could also be. or if some of it could be potentially programmed as more shared, maybe some cars leave in the morning, some cars come in to go to work, Maybe some of the parking gets more distributed or more focused. But at least trying to do testing of the hardscapes, trying to cut in it, transforming it into landscapes or even furnitures that could manage the water, that could enhance the biodiversity within the site, or could create exciting events for actually inviting people out and trying to address the landscape and the programming in between the buildings. So basically trying to activate the landscaping, using it as an active part to create physical wayfinding, to create structures, to enhance the biodiversity and to understand the layers that are out there. The further you dig down in the ground, the larger trees you can actually plant. So using it as a method to sort of program and to open up the site in between the buildings and maybe to test different areas that necessarily doesn't exactly need to be parking, but could be something else. And this could be a way of starting to test that. It actually came a little bit from one of our favorite lunch places here in town, the Daru sandwich bar with the really, really tall cakes. But what we especially experienced there is that the neighboring industrial area or the businesses are pretty tired of having the customers park right outside of their main front gate. So they have a very friendly sign saying that all customers can't park here. If you are a customer of the room, you have to go over here. But what comes out of that is a traffic stop because people are parking their car in the middle of the road. And when visiting the site, you can also see that it's actually going on at our neighborhood, not to the same sort of annotation level, but people are coming up, parking their car, and walking directly into their office. That means that they potentially are not even aware of who their neighbor are. They're not bumping into each other. They're not walking through the actual area. So if some of this parking could be... shared, piled up. It could be bumbled in a way. I think our area could be an interesting way of actually testing it. Also hearing when talking with the community that the sort of lack of connection is something that they feel and they would love to be more connected. I think this is a low-hanging fruit. going from transformation of the landscape to transformation of the actual buildings out there, the warehouse as the main topology, a topic we already discussed today, what those capabilities are. I thought it was a given that these structures are to be retained out there because they are beautiful and they are simple. And they are column grid structure, even a hybrid, including wood, that allows a lot of flexibility. You can see that flexibility on all the different programs that goes on there, everything from warehouses to actually office environments or retailer shop or commercial shops. But these ones, if you understand the grid and you start to build up an idea of what could go on inside of them, how you could retain the structure, reinforce them, bring them into the future, even reprogram them into residential structures. or just allowing other shops to go on there, I think you could develop what we could call a set of guides that anyone could get access to, lean against, or find knowledge in, if they are to, in small scale, just do maintenance. energy renovations, larger renovations, or even transformations in the future to lean against. And you can see already going around, same distance in between columns, just different ways of programming, different ways of doing your facades. Either it's welcoming you to come in, it's closing off, it's more back of house, or it's larger small scale. So trying to understand what they could be and also seeing that people are actually expanding their structures out there. Here we are looking at a small administration office on top of their warehouse, something that we easily could see built in a more certified way with your wooden cassettes. You're really good at building in wood here, a light structure that could go on top of it and be potential housing. Having the living and the commercial be coexisting side by side, avoiding oil spills in playgrounds and toxic matters for sure. But if we are doing this in the right way, I really believe that this could be a really exciting place to do. So understanding the structure and then trying to maybe choose one out there where it makes sense to transform into potential housing. This concept we call every second. So you take out every second, you bring a pathway through it, and you build houses in there within the existing grid. This grid here is following the exact grid line of your existing structures that the Toll Brothers are building. It's the same dimension. You could also build more sensible in between the structures, densifying the space, as Sophie was talking about. Or you could even start to extend, as we talked about before, having the commercial as a part of the streetscape and having the living on top of the building. Or you could just do another Daru out there and get a lot of people. But that might be, at first, bring people out, understanding the structures, and then looking into future possibilities. And for allowing that to happen, the idea of the toolbox, and this was very much in conversation with the city, a toolbox for understanding the structures out there, but also addressing the first phases of connections to CKC, a toolbox to enhance the community out there, and a toolbox to sort of understand the existing structures, giving guidelines that people can lean against. So whenever they're having the urge to do something, that it's within... the guides that we provide as common, they have this to lean against. So I think, yeah, a toolbox of guidance.

I think let's continue and do the last one.

The two next are centered around people and experiments. The first one we call right now the generator, because all the ideas that you have heard until now are actually thought of as being that we were able to pilot, test, and scale. You can make all of them in a very small scale. with the unsurfacing or trying out new housing, you can do a small thing, test, does it work, and go from there. So creating a generator, you can think of it just as applying pilot test scale form in how do we work with it, but you can also... a house, a plot, and start using that as a space for whatever farmers market a lot of people out there are asking for food access so why not make that possible with food trucks and so on okay if if the house you get access to is having the same dimensions the same thing you can start doing stuff with it trying things out showcasing it. I'm not saying that a city should buy houses just to experiment, but maybe you could work on it. Maybe you could lease one for a while and do experiments. Maybe you can even make it financially viable for the city. Who knows? But thinking in making some kind of generator in the area that can generate all the other ideas, but also maybe be a place for people to meet up. Because out there when we meet people, they create small communities. like very micro communities, but they don't know, you know, the people from the cake factory have a small community over there, but more or less in the same building, the people from the lamp shop, they are, oh, we would like to know some more of our neighbors here. They are, you know, like 50 meters away from each other, but that's too far right now. So how do we create community for the whole CIS, space could be good for that. So if we could create some kind of meeting point, and if we could make it interesting for the businesses to use it, there might be possibilities to create more. if we go crazy and go to Aarhus where Sofia has been working, you could create places like that, maybe even rent out possibilities for small vendors, whatever. When we talk with people about creating a business association or being a businesses gathering, People tend to say, why should we? Nobody's going to listen to us anyway. So we have to rethink the idea of representativity out there. Well, you here at the municipality actually need someone to go and talk to when you want to create something. and they need a place to address their thoughts and concerns and hopes. So how can we find the local champions? How can we make connections between people out there for their benefit, but certainly also for the management of this city interact with an area because people are interested, they are engaged, but right now they don't have the belief that anyone is going to listen to them. So there is something also about why should we do it. So there is some outreach here that there are a lot of potential in the area to connect people But it would take some footwork to go there. Oh.

Yes, we have a final idea. And it's a conversation that, oh, yeah, there's a final idea here, the goat town. And it's an idea that just keeps popping up in the different workshops and different dialogues. And it is about the area is like totally overgrown with blackberries. And it would be wonderful to do a nature restoration project there. Goats could be a supplement in that. They can fix everything. Unfortunately, they don't eat the roots. They don't dig up the roots. And they have to come back again and again. Through some years, they can be a huge supplement in restoring the nature together with human activity also. But at the same time, that could be an event that creates some talk about the site. It can create a reason to go, to go out there and see the goats. And an interesting contrast to the industry.

Yeah.

A goat? A long-haired goat?

Maybe I can defend my little drawing here. I think the practical idea about the goat is great. But to be honest, we didn't have any control about the idea of the goat. We've been speaking to a lot of people And I think why the goat kept on staying alive was because this place needed an identity, something to familiarize or to meet around or to talk about that is not the South Lake sub-urban, industrial suburban neighborhood. But it's just GoTown. And we are not saying that this is GoTown. We are saying that the place needs an identity. Just like your favorite football team or your favorite beer or your favorite place to be, you call it something. It needs to become a place. And that could very well be reached through an identity, through a mascot, a saying, a name. And I would say that's the key symbol of the GOAT. But we will build some towers to it where it can live, because we heard there's also coyotes out there. Yeah, thanks.

So it was funny. On the first workshop we had, everybody went crazy about the goat. But to realize that we had to visit the idea of the goat as both an event and as the potential of identity was what we learned from it. Now we can just say, maybe we don't need actual goats, or maybe we don't need it to be called Goat Town, but there has to be something that centers the conversation. And a good way to do that is through some sort of event like bringing goats in. It could be anything else. But even the people out there, we have an email from one of the very good business owners out there who says, please don't call it South Area anymore. So this is also a sign of lack of identity, lack of belonging. So right now, go for creating identity. Right now, go for creating a community, enlarging and connecting those small communities that are already there, but just need a little push to be something stronger and also could be a good conversation point for the Commission, for the municipality in general, but also for helping each other out in a bit larger scale. Is that it? Ah, no, it's not it.

Okay, we need to wrap up now, but the idea is that you can implement these small steps, creating the foundation for a different future of the area, or a more multifunctional future for the area. One small step at a time.

Yeah. I don't know if it says that. No, it doesn't say. No? Good. But people can react. Yep. So, Commissioner Rosman.

Yeah, so I was curious if in your report or in your conversations, have you talked about how... Because a lot of these ideas are great, but they take a lot of money. Has there been conversation about where the dollars come from to do any of this? Because right now, economically, everywhere is kind of struggling. So it's like, what are the... best ways to go about this? Are there specific pieces? Because the city doesn't have a lot of dollars to put towards this, I'm certain. So it's like, what can be done with limited funds now? Because the idea of buying a building and having it as a center hub would be so awesome, but the city, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the city has the money to buy one of those buildings as a community hub at this point.

I'll give the first little answer. The small version of buying a house and creating a hub would be to try to facilitate a business gathering two times a month at Maelstrom Brewing. I think you should buy the beer and the sandwich on the first meeting and do it with a couple of other guys. And I think you should attend the first four meetings and being ready for conversations. I think you should show up every fourth meeting after that to show your interest. It will cost you 30 beers and 30 sandwiches. So the task now is trying to scale big ideas down to almost nothing. Like the unsurfacing, well, you have plenty of people here that knows how to to work with plants and dig holes in asphalt. Do an experiment. Make it a happening. See what can we do if we dig up a bit of asphalt and a bit of concrete and see what we can do. So this is the stretching. Please don't take us that we need a ton of money. take the approach what we are trying to talk about here is that everything we said, you can do it really small scale. And we arrive at 30 beers and 30 sandwiches, or putting an extra task on the construction people that you have here to try and actually dig something up. And the green greenery for people to try to put some plants in it.

So it sounds like the encouragement would be for the city to be more flexible than cities normally are on experimenting and piloting because I feel like that seems really straightforward and then I think about what it would require with permitting and going through the city process and digging up just a little bit of asphalt and planting a couple trees is like it becomes a much bigger task than it probably should be. And so I think that's where, how do we talk about city process? And is there a way to just like say, yes, we're going to let this area be a little more creative. I don't know if Alison or Adam have thoughts on that. Cause to me, like it makes sense, but then I also know how the city process works. And I, I would hate to see that not even be possible because of the layers things have to go through.

Yeah, I can chime in. Thanks. And yeah, I would agree with what Tia was saying. I mean, I think that what we have right now are some aspirational elements of changes in this area, right? Similar to what we have in our comprehensive plan or other sub-area plans. So I think, you know, as part of a next task, when we figure out exactly what the plan will be coming, you know, from here on, it could include things like how we implement these items and where the budget might come from and things like that. So I think that is a task that is to come. I think the idea of, yeah, we need to crack open our regulations and encourage pilot projects and increase flexibility is a really good one. And I think that can be woven into the activation plan or the implementation plan for this as well, so.

I'll add one thing. And also one of the ideas was to have that permitting toolbox. And so if we are wanting more signs in the area or more CKC access, maybe we make that process for this area a lot simpler and kind of have just a set step one, two, three for how you get that done. And that might incentivize property owners to be like, okay, yeah, I should do that because it's that easy to do. So that is within the city's power and doesn't cost much money.

Yesterday I had the pleasure to work with a group of people from the Green Kirkland. Partnership, yeah. And they were just so hands-on. They were just, let's make a foundation, let's do an event and collect some money, and let's just do it. There are local forces that can help with some of these things.

Commissioner Buñuel, I see you had your hand raised.

I did. Kind of the spark that started this whole thing was a ComPlan amendment request to add housing. And we haven't really addressed, I guess, numbers or the feasibility of adding housing. And I'm wondering, this is probably for you, Alexander, about the existing structures. Can they be retrofitted to add additional stories and housing above? It is, is it feasible or to add any? And if it is feasible, how many stories approximately? Could you do or do you just do a flooring system that floats over the existing warehouses, so that you can do a mixture like maybe lofts, small lofts up there rather than you know, your typical housing?

Well, I think maybe in this case, it would be easy to use a local reference. I just spoke to one of the planners called John. Yeah. who was here earlier today, and he spoke about a project of a person who bought an old warehouse downtown. And I think they seeked permission to reinforce the existing structure. I don't know how far they went with that, but they actually did it. And the old warehouse was reinforced. And then, did he say seven years later, he had the permission to actually build family homes on top of it.

So it's doable?

I would definitely say it's doable.

Okay.

And especially when I look around and see how a lot of the, what do you call them, condos are built, that it's a lot of wood put together, which is light. So there are, in my mind, there are definitely possibilities there.

Okay.

Thank you.

Chair, can you maybe address that the public, there's no... Yeah, this is not supposed to be a back and forth between members of the public and the commission at this point. We'll have time at the end of the meeting for you to give comment. I assume you guys are staying until the end of the meeting. Okay, cool. Any other thoughts from commissioners?

I GUESS I HAVE A BRIEF ONE. THINKING BACK TO THE COMMUNITY AMENDMENT REQUEST THAT KICKED THIS OFF AND KEEPING IN MIND, ARE THERE OPPORTUNITIES TO ADDRESS THAT PARTICULAR ONE MORE QUICKLY? I CAN'T REMEMBER EVEN WHAT THE SCALE IS. I WAS STARTING TO PULL IT UP. IT'S ONE OF THESE WHERE I'M TRYING TO THINK OF HOW WOULD THAT POTENTIALLY ADDRESS THIS. THIS IS SOMETHING WE CAN DISCUSS MORE AFTER. trying to keep in my mind of there's a balance between like trying to handle these more swiftly as well as trying to think about the broader picture. So we aren't handling these each as one offs. I know there's some tension there. And just wanted to, you know, help us keep that in mind. Mr.

And to pick up both on what Commissioner Buñuel and Rutherford has said, all of this is phenomenal. I love the suggestions that can enable us to take small steps, but I do agree that part of the rationale behind this was to explore how additional housing could be part of that output and I worry a little bit about timing so I'm thinking I'm thinking really broadly now about timing and like the commitments we've made to the Puget Sound Regional Council and then I look at our our comprehensive plan and there's a specific policy that would actually elongate this process. Is it TL33 dot something? Dot one. Dot one, okay. Because what we got was the grant to do this phenomenal visioning work, right? But I would be interested at some point to understand what the timeframe might be if nothing changed in terms of what our policy currently states. and knowing that we do have commitments to the PSRC, and money is a challenge, and also to pick up on what you're saying, Rutherford, and I know I'm not being very coherent or concise. What did you say?

What were we talking about? That was about, yeah.

So this notion, and I wrote down, I've heard this several times throughout the members of the table there, right? We talk about pilots experimenting test cases and scaling and I do think this presents an opportunity in the context perhaps of that car to do just that because what I'm really impressed by with this presentation is not only the depth and breadth and the creativity but how it also encompasses a lot of what we value as a city from a sustainability perspective and just a creativity and this notion of identity and I think we just have a real unique opportunity here so staff if we could get a better idea of if nothing changed in terms of our plan like it seems to me that we wouldn't be able to start any of the actual housing components until early 2030 I don't like that I don't control that I just don't like that and I think when we talked a few months ago we we asked about the potential for housing and the space. And I think that was sort of the thinking was there wasn't a lot of potential. Based on what this amazing crew shared tonight, it seems like their understanding of the buildings and the opportunity to retrofit, were those buildings become available for that purpose, it could happen. So I don't want to lose pace on this if we can avoid it.

I can make a vice chair, I can make a quick response. You know, I think this phase that we have just sort of wrapped up or are wrapping up is really the we call it sort of the or think about as the discovery phase, right? This phase was really about knocking on doors, learning about the area, walking around the district, really getting to know it on a granular level. And so I think it has probably changed our thinking a little bit, as you suggested about how much housing can be accommodated here? Is this really a great place for a lot of housing development? The CAR, as you recall, called for 1,200 units of housing in this area, right? And so, what? Yeah, and heights up to 150 feet. Yeah, Allison just reminded me. So that is a huge amount of housing in this area. There already are housing areas in the district, right? So those can get continued to be developed with housing. But I think this process made us think a little bit differently about housing here. So, you know, I think we'll, we need to sort of, I think, think about this a little bit more, and then probably return to you, the Planning Commission, with some options. Because this might not be a sub-area plan with a lot of housing, and we might decide that we need to meet our regional targets for housing, that we might need to look elsewhere for the scale of housing development that we need to meet our affordability requirements. And the good thing is that we have a lot of projects on the work program that will address those needs. that are better situated in proximity to transit, for instance, like hospital 1491 compliance, which is requires a pretty major up zone or long bus rapid transit corridors in the city. Our neighborhood center relook is another one, the middle housing optimization is another one looking at citywide affordable housing requirements is another. So if we ultimately decided this is not a great place for a ton of housing, I think we do have lots of other opportunities to explore.

I see a potential for coming back to the June 25th meeting, or is that too soon? It's only two weeks.

I mean, yeah, we can chat internally. I think, you know, the box-up group is going to be preparing a report for us with more digestion of these issues. So that might be a little bit premature, but we can think internally and circle back to you.

Commissioner Rosman.

Yeah, so I do want to say that I really enjoyed the visioning and the thoughts here. And my biggest concern with this is that Five years from now, this is exactly where we're going to be. A great vision and have absolutely nothing have happened. Like I would give that at least 50-50 odds. Like I know that's like really depressing to think about. But if I'm going to be perfectly honest, I give it a 50-50 that we have not implemented any of this. We might've talked about it a bunch more, but I would really, really like, I would really encourage like if we could get like a, we're gonna do, you know, something in the next six months, we're gonna do something in the next 12 months. Like if we don't do it in the next six or 12 months, this lovely report is going to sit on a shelf And maybe in another five years, we will look at re-envisioning the area again, or maybe something will have happened outside of city direction. I don't want to rely on someone coming in and having an idea independently. Like, I really, really want to, you know, we had the grant, we've done all this good work. Like, let's like commit to something in the next six to 12 months, because otherwise, I think it will just be a lovely idea on a shelf.

and thanks if i could just respond to that really quickly um commissioner rosman that's a good really good point and um we haven't mentioned this already but we have requested some budget um for this upcoming budget cycle to do some either additional planning work or an activation plan or something that can help sort of meet some of the objectives that you're lying out because yeah you're right we don't want this work to languish as well it's really good and the beauty of it is that a lot of it is sort of smaller scale and a lot of it does require some budget a lot of it can be done with relatively limited budget and or just coordination work on the city side to sort of push some of these things forward. So we're definitely on the same page in regards to let's make some of this happen.

I guess my encouragement would be if there's a small budget, use the budget to act. I think we have enough planning here. I don't think we need to plan anymore at this point. I think we would do much better to spend the small budget on trying some of the small test ideas and then maybe planning additionally once we've got some actual tangible stuff. Otherwise, yeah, I would say we've planned enough for this stage.

Great, thanks. That's good.

Commissioner Reiser?

Okay, and this is probably aimed more at Adam and the planning staff. One of my concerns while watching is my...

Your mic's not on. Oh, it is.

One of my concerns is that, okay, in repurposing, not that I would ever ask that you could come up with costs, especially, but part of it is... was looking at it going is this a lot more expensive it you know and and yes that large building you did on a very large scales did save but in these warehouse spaces I think it comes down to dollars and cents contractors are gonna say is it cheaper to scrape it and build something fresh and also I was looking at staff just thinking okay How hard is this to permit? How demanding is the city going to be on retrofitting buildings and assessing buildings and then before they'll even issue a permit? So I would probably say in our planning or thoughts forward is how cost effective is it and how hard is it going to be for developers who may want to invest in this to permit the project. And if it is, great, then that's presented as such. But in my mind, looking through this entire presentation is, okay, every time we talk to a builder in the last five years, it's been, it doesn't pencil out for us. And I think if it does pencil out, we may have people jumping in to attempt one.

Yeah, I think quickly, Commissioner Reiser, I think some of the state legislation that Commissioner Rosman mentioned does help a bit. It clears some of the environmental studies that would be required for building conversions, and we've implemented that. In miscellaneous code amendments last year, we implemented that state legislation. So we've worked as quickly as we can to make sure we're codifying that helpful state legislation locally and then the other thing that I would just note is that housing is allowed in some portions of this area already in some and housing is being built in this area currently we have a townhome development that's being constructed and so I think that gives us one example for one housing type in the area our struggle or the the challenge I think is that there are other parts of the area right now that either don't allow housing or that have a high regulatory barrier before housing could be developed, like a large minimum lot size. The policy adopted in the comp plan requires a next phase of deeper study that requires budget for us because we don't have some of the expertise on staff, like to do a market analysis, which is one of the things that the policy would ask us to do before we make any substantial zoning changes in the area. And I think that's what vice chair was maybe alluding to. And so that's the kind of timing bind for us on this, which is why we got started. And I think checked several of the boxes that the comp plan policy asks for with this first phase. And then we'll be working more to figure out what we can do in the second phase. And that is based on a budget request as well.

Go ahead. One more quick question. When you were talking to the businesses in the area, you mentioned a lot of like the parking stalls and potential to maybe turn some of that into green area. Do we know if there is excess parking in this sub area right now or is it mostly being used and that's like a future envisioning?

I think just based on our observations, there's some excess parking. A lot of the parking lots are being used for vehicle storage right now. So there's a Subaru dealership out there that is renting many plots in the area for storing their vehicles um so it kind of depends on the day that you're out there sometimes there's a bunch and sometimes there's completely empty parking lots but yeah we would need more data to confirm that so i guess i'll chime in unless anyone else has things they want to share um i definitely share the concerns of commissioners that

I MENTIONED THE CONCERNS AROUND TIMING, AND I KNOW ADAM AND ALLISON AND I HAVE HAD A LOT OF CONVERSATIONS OUTSIDE OF MEETINGS ON THIS COMPREHENSIVE PLAN POLICY. SO I WANTED TO HIGHLIGHT THE REQUESTS THAT THE DEPARTMENT PUT FORWARD, I THINK IN THE MID-BIENNIAL BUDGET ADJUSTMENT LAST TIME WHEN YOU ASKED ORIGINALLY THAT WAS LIKE $200,000. WHAT'S THE REQUEST THAT YOU'RE MAKING THIS TIME AROUND FOR THIS YEAR? IF YOU CAN SHARE THAT.

YEAH, WE CAN SHARE THAT. um chair jacobson it's fifty thousand sixty thousand dollars fifty to sixty thousand dollars to advance the work in some way i think we're still sort of thinking through exactly what that means and i think the feedback that we heard tonight is really useful right with that i think we heard action sooner rather than later is good dedicating that money to actually making some of this stuff happen is good so i think we'll sort of put that through the filter of how we use this budget but that's what we're currently asking what's on the table right now there's still a long way to go before that gets presented to city council as well we have a lot of internal discussions ahead of us but that's sort of what we have in mind for now okay and is that predicated again on the like like you said earlier we might do a sub-area plan with not very much housing um is that the would we if we if the city actually did want to add a lot of housing in this area

would that require more money, or is that just more time, or would that change that?

Yeah, good question. Allison corrected me. It's $75,000 that we currently have penciled in, but that's, again, subject to change. And yes, I think that's right, Chair Jacobson. If we were looking at major housing plan you know similar to say the station area plan with yeah a lot more housing units what we would want to do in a sub area plan is a lot more in-depth analysis of transportation needs and utility needs and financing a financing plan etc so I think yeah this this budget is either predicated on a lesser housing plan and more action now, or it's just a second step and a much longer journey towards a more robust plan that includes a lot of housing. So I don't think we need to decide, is it a major housing plan or not right now? Right. But I think it's depending on the direction that, you know, we will get from you and more digestion of what we've heard and learned from this phase. We can come back with recommendations on, you know, what this next phase of planning or action looks like.

Thank you. It's very interesting that it seems like the question that we're still on as a city is, do we want to allow housing here? And there's definitely strong opinions on both sides of that. What I find a little interesting that I think we should be highlighting is that yes, you're, you're right that like, there are other state bills that are mandating us to add housing to other locations. So we might be forced to comply with the requirements in different ways, but not through any ideas of our own. But we did, the city did go to the Puget Sound Regional Council and specifically fight to keep this area in the regional growth center designation and keep the regional growth center designation grandfathered in as large as it is and my understanding um talking with council members is that the psrc really didn't want to allow this they really wanted us to shrink it down because our the total lake regional growth center is too large by their standards um and so Because we fought for it, it seems then really odd for us to be debating whether we want to put a lot of housing here. Because if we didn't want to put a lot of housing here, why would we have fought to include it in the regional growth center? And so it feels like the city has not been thinking holistically and comprehensively on what, if we're saying one thing to the PSRC, but we're saying another thing through this visioning program, and we're saying another thing in a different area, that feels contradictory and I think it might be helpful if our role as the Planning Commission is to sort of raise the flag like, hey, we need to actually make up our minds on this.

Thanks. Those are all good points, Chair Jacobson. I think I guess, again, there's a lot more digestion that needs to happen of this information so that we can come back with some recommendations on what scale of housing we're thinking about in this area. I don't think we are thinking about no housing, right? There's already housing that's been developed in the area that will continue to be developed in the area, and then as we discussed tonight, there's good opportunities for integrating housing in a sort of context-sensitive manner that protects the industrial area. So housing, yes, right? It's a matter of how much housing. I think the other thing to think about is that, you know, the urban center designation is based on jobs and housing, right? So it's not just housing, it's jobs and housing. And this does seem to be an important employment area as well that can be actually enhanced. Like there are ways to enhance this area to get more people working in it, not just living in it as well, but living in it is a good thing to achieve as well. So I don't necessarily think the decision about how much housing is contrary to the motivation of the city to keep this as part of our urban center, right? But again, like the points of Thinking strategically about how this happens is super important. We should continue to talk about that. But I don't think that a lesser housing plan is necessarily incompatible with the urban center designation.

Yeah, I mean, industrial uses are not a high job density use. I mean, I also, in talking with council members one-on-one, I think there is a lot of mixed feelings. And this policy that's governing this did not actually go before the Planning Commission, so we never actually had time to analyze what the impacts of it would be, which is part of why I think that we might want to have another conversation. And I think it would be helpful for us to have this conversation in time to potentially make amendments to the comprehensive plan policy. time for council to think about whether it wants to give direction to include any sort of amendment to that comprehensive plan policy as part of this year's annual comprehensive plan amendments. Because that seems like that requires more direction sooner than the budget process, which would be much later this year. And so that's why I feel like it might be helpful for us to be talking about this at this time.

Yeah, agreed.

Commissioner Rutherford and then Commissioner Buñuel. I think I can make this fairly quick. So I think we're pretty well in a similar headspace on like the core purpose of the ideas here and what we'd love, you know, some of the ideas we'd love to see happen. But I think that where we're really struggling at this point is, and what I find it really hard to find any books on the topic of, What are the processes that your government follows, your cities follow in order to make these sorts of things viable and able to happen? Because I think that's really part of the challenge that we face is we get stumbled up on the process. And it's that missing how piece of what are the regulations that we need to do? What are the processes that we need to do? And maybe this is stepping a little bit outside of our official role as planning commission, But I think it's something that's that's really core to you know, how can we make that leap from? The the purpose we're trying to pursue To the making that actually land on the ground Commissioner Boone ill Yeah, I agree.

Um, my question is what happened to the car? Have we told him? No, is it still pending? It's out in the ether somewhere. I

The request is open. The answer hasn't been yes or no yet. So the request is open pending resolution of everything we're talking about tonight and the policy and the comp plan. So the comp plan policy that was adopted because it sort of set this requirement for a subarea plan prior to any zoning changes doesn't allow us to answer the zoning question quickly. So we're considering it open.

Yeah, I think the CAR applicant was aware of that, right? When the policy was adopted, it wasn't immediately create a sub-area plan, right, with upzoning. It was very deliberate, step-by-step, do a market analysis, understand the area better, and then do it. So I don't think any of this is a surprise to the applicant.

Okay.

I think they're aware of that. Yeah, it wasn't an instant do it, get it done. It was take some steps to figure out is this the right place for it, how might housing be integrated, et cetera, all the again, all the questions we've been talking about tonight.

I think one of the topics that we'll be talking about later is we currently don't have anything scheduled for June 25th. And so we will have, I'm kind of leaning towards, it might be helpful to talk about this again on the 25th and really dig into what are the, what are the limits, like let's actually have the policy up on the screen and and see the requirements and understand. Because as I understand, if we did want to do a pilot project that had anything to do with zoning, the current policy would prevent us from doing that. So there might be a world, I think, Commissioner Rutherford, you suggested of maybe a pilot project that allows the original application to move forward in some way. Or maybe I'm misremembering what you said.

I mean, that's one possibility, but I have no idea if anything in the shape of that is appropriate here anyway. So it might be something that takes us in that direction, but it's really challenging. I mean, it's such a huge leap beyond what's there today. And if what we're thinking about is like testing before we scale, it's kind of tough to make that leap as a test.

Yeah. And so but that's one of the things where like, if we even wanted a version of that, that's even a scope down version, that's not an option right now. And so that's where I think it's important for us to sort of start this conversation, both on the commission and staff, but especially on council. Because I don't know that the full implications of the policy were understood at the time of in the long flurry of amendments that we had in December of the comprehensive plan year. Um, so I think it, and I think it's perfectly reasonable for us for the planning commission to raise this point because this is the first time it's really come before us. Um, so, uh, we will, we can come back to that when we start talking about our calendar, but, um, does anyone else have any other thoughts on this topic? All right. Thank you. And then I believe that is it for our study session. All right. We have no public hearings today. We have no minutes. We are now on to administrative reports and planning commission discussion. Alison, would you like to start?

Yeah, quick public meeting calendar update. I'd invite our friends, if you want to get out of the hot seats, you can. We'll be a few more minutes here. And so at your next meeting, we don't have any items scheduled currently, but if I'm picking up the thread that the commission is putting down tonight, I'm hearing a discussion on policy TL 33.1 as an agenda item, and then if it's okay with the commission, perhaps I could work with the chair and vice chair offline to talk a little more about what you might want to see in a packet and is information prepared for that? And then Commissioner Rosman gets one more meeting? I see how it is.

Well, we're going to have Commissioner Nolan here in person for my last meeting, right?

I actually will not be able to be in person at the last meeting. I'm sorry.

Never mind.

I'll try to be remote.

Do you have other calendar updates? Because we might want to discuss that.

I do have a couple. Go ahead. I can wait.

No, go ahead.

Okay. So currently don't have anything scheduled for your July 9th meeting. And then at your July 23rd meeting, wanted to give you ample notice. You've probably seen it, but we are bringing... planning on bringing the Housing on Faith Owned Land Amendment straight to public hearing per Planning Commission direction. And as a reminder, those July meetings will be virtual for you because council chambers will be closed. And you'll experience better audio and visual when you come back in person. I DID ALSO JUST WANT TO NOTE A COUPLE ITEMS THAT ARE GOING TO CITY COUNCIL NEXT TUESDAY. THE FIRST IS POTENTIAL ADOPTION OF THE RESIDENTIAL LOT SPLITTING AMENDMENTS THAT STACEY MCGREGOR SITTING IN FRONT OF YOU HAS WORKED ON. SO TAKING THOSE RECOMMENDATIONS FROM PLANNING COMMISSION TO COUNCIL FOR ADOPTION. AND THEN WANTED TO NOTE ONE At their meeting on May 18th or 19th, I can't remember. I was off that week. It was the Tuesday of that week. We did take a code mandated check-in to council on the requirements that were adopted for affordable housing and low density residential zones. Those were adopted last year, and at the time of adoption, Council requested that we go back and give them an opportunity to explore any potential amendments to that requirement before they go into effect in January of 2027. At that meeting, Council did request that we prepare a potential amendment for them to consider to raise the threshold exemption for that requirement from 2,000 square feet to 2,500 square feet. So there is an ordinance they requested to hold the public hearing for it, so they will hold the public hearing for that at their meeting on Tuesday and consider adoption of that ordinance. That's all from me.

All right. Any other thoughts on potentially meeting again on the 25th to discuss the other industrial sub area or goat district policy?

I guess my thought is, you know, my comments about actually like going forward and testing and piloting and stuff while we're talking about it within this sub area. I think it could be a very interesting thought, like larger citywide policies, because it's not like this is. special to just this area, nor is this even special to Kirkland. Like this is very much a like Seattle area issue. I mean, sound transit has the dubious record of being the second slowest light rail rollout in the country. So, um, I could see potentially this being a, let's see if we can test some of this stuff in small form that we can then, because we talk about pilots and, you know, catalyst stuff all the time, but we don't see the pilots and we don't see the catalyst projects. so it would be really interesting I think to talk about it like within this area, but also as like a microcosm of how we, you know, get a little more creative and flexible like generally.

Thank you. I'm also realizing that, um, Given that we don't have anything planned for July 9th, if that would give you more time to process, especially with the report, that might be better because you might be able to provide more information to us.

I see a thumbs up online, but perhaps I'd welcome the opportunity to maybe touch base offline to talk about what items you might want to see, and then we could give you a response as to what we can get done and when we can do it.

Mr. Rutherford? Would this potentially be an opportunity for maybe a remote, I mean, we're already going to be a hybrid or, you know, remote meeting, you know, like an off-site retreat actually in the area to see it and get a sense of the feel, but I don't know if that's, you know, That might be challenging to notice as a public meeting if we end up wandering around the area. We could do an after party at the brewery.

Potentially. We could notice it as a public meeting. I do wonder, though, if the discussion is one that Commission would want to make sure is accessible to the public and recorded.

Yeah, yeah, especially for parts of it at least.

Yeah, if we're tussling with this contradiction. Yeah, yes.

Maybe then it's a conversation between myself, the Vice Chair, and Adam and Allison on whether the 25th or the 9th is better.

And then I would propose if you talk about that on the 9th, that we can just make the 25th a dinner instead of a meeting, potentially. Yeah. Yeah.

So then I guess that will be a conversation that we'll have offline And you'll find out when you get the notice Yes If it's not anything else No, all right. So now we have our second time in the in the meeting for comments from the audience if you would like to Speak please approach the podium or raise your hand on zoom. I see we have one person on zoom and one person in person. So I Please state your name, and you will have three minutes.

My name is Lisa Berenson, and I'm lead AP, and I have been in the architectural industry for over 18 plus years. So number one, I love everything you guys are proposing. For years, I have been going to design review meetings, planning meetings, and everything. So I have been complaining for years. Everybody in Kirkland is tired of boxes. Yes, you need more multifamily. Yes, you need more units. But we are so sick and tired. Every single thing that's been built, currently being built, is a flippin' sterile box. It's the same thing with same exterior materials, same, there's no green space for neighbors to gather and talk to each other or take their cat or their dog outside. It's boxes. And hi neighbor, I can see you through the bathroom window kind of stuff. And this city desperately, I totally agree with what they're saying, there is no reason why you cannot retrofit. Do you know Seattle right now is retrofitting all the empty office space to turn it into units for people to live in? It's not a difficult thing to do. And to build on top of this industrial, which I know very well because I've been in Kirkland since, like, 19-god-knows, the industrial buildings over there can handle the capacity structurally and with the footprint there to incorporate housing that is organic Kinetic energy. Everything is so static in Kirkland that when I drive around, I know this area so well where it's like, I'm not going to drive down this street because I know I'm going to see this ugly, huge, 4,000-square-foot home that's painted black, that's a stupid contemporary box that has no grass, no tree canopy, no nothing. The city needs to start thinking outside the box. Boise, Idaho, for example. Other cities, they are including... mixed use with retail, with industrial, with residential. They are incorporating mural art, physical art. It creates energy. This city has become a boring box. It's been a boring box for years, and I am so sick of it. I'm sick of it, and I'm not the only person sick of it. And every time I drive somewhere, when I see more of the same clouding and the same panels and the same stupid cheap application of hardy board siding in this direction, and now they're going vertical for some reason because they think that saves them money. Boring, tacky, ugly. All neutral colors. Wake up! Wake up! The retrofitting and the redesigning is going on all across America, but Kirkland is still stuck in a fucking box.

Thank you for your comments. Is there anyone else who would like to speak? If you're online, you can raise your hand on Zoom. Final call. Nope. All right. That is the end of our public comment period. And that brings us to the last item in our meeting, adjournment. So this meeting is now adjourned.