Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

We are on to the public comment point of the meeting, so if anyone online or in the audience would like to speak.

Do we have a... No one has signed up in person. If you would like to speak, you can come to the podium, or if you're just here to listen, we can... Staff presentation.

Yeah, thank you, Chair Rosman. Before we start the study session, just in talking to Chair Rosman... Oh, yes, thank you. I totally forgot. Takes two. So we did just want to make a point at the beginning of the meeting to note that applications for the upcoming vacancy on Planning Commission are currently open, and applications are due by April 29th, so about another week. So if... You're all on the Planning Commission, but if you know of anyone that's interested, they've got a few more days to look into it. I think that... I can take my spot. And if you come across anyone that's curious about it and... want to talk to staff, feel free to direct them to us. We're happy to chat with folks. And of course, you can share your experience on the Planning Commission as well. So just wanted to note that at the beginning of the meeting for anyone that might be interested.

And if anyone listening wants to get coffee or talk, I'm always welcome. I'm always happy to sit down and talk to anyone who's interested. Whether or not it's planning commission, if it's a different board or commission, those are also open through the same time period. So it's not just planning commission. I want to note that. So parks board, transportation, human services. There's some openings on the civil service. Okay. Yeah. So there's a number of them. So if you are interested in getting involved at the city level, boards and commissions are a great place to do that. Look online and you can see all the ones that are open right now through the 29th. Great.

And with that, I think we're ready to start the study session. So we put this on the agenda after talking to the planning commission and holding the public hearing for some amendments to the station area code. The commission expressed an interest in hearing about what the rest of city staff is doing on the activation front, so specifically hearing from our Economic Development Manager, Jen Davis-Hayes, on a lot of the work that she's doing out in the community to let people know about the 85th Street Station area. And I think a lot of the incentivization that the Planning Commission and Council have both talked about lives under the umbrella of economic development. So wanted to invite Jen to the meeting tonight to give a quick presentation to you all and then engage in some question and answer so that you know kind of about that work that's going on. So with that, I will hand it over to Jen.

Thank you very much for having me here tonight. My name, as she mentioned, is Jen Davis Hayes, and I started as the Economic Development Manager last June, which seems like it was yesterday, but also a long time ago. And my position was created in order to help catalyze the Northeast 85th Station area, among some other things. So it's exciting to see so much interest and support from all aspects of the city moving forward so i i guess i have a quick question how many of you were on the commission or paying attention when the plan was being created so i can better understand okay and and how many of you are i mean you're i believe but i'm asking again how many of you are aware of the two projects that were for redevelopment that uh were planned and kind of didn't move forward every okay So I'll start out with that basic. So they're at the Lee Johnson. I saw two hands that didn't get raised. Is that correct for the project?

Well, and we want to speak also to anyone listening. Yes. Okay. Thank you. Okay.

Yep. So the Northeast Street Station area, the plan was passed in 2022. 23. And it's, you know, to create more density in the area near the station, which is going to be in the intersection at Northeast 85th and 405. There's a bus rapid transit station through Sound Transit stride, and that is not being reduced or cut because the Sound Transit's current budget adjustments. And most of the area on the east of 85th from that intersection has, that's where we're looking at a lot of growth and density. And so the height was increased. The density, the form-based code was created. The tax increment financing was passed, which allows the city to collect the taxes as the property values grow. to reinvest in the area. There are a lot of really progressive and incentivized things that the city did in that plan, including creating a pioneer program. The first development in, again, trying to catalyze others to see that it's a good place to redevelop. We all know that Kirkland is an amazing place to develop and to live and to work. But sometimes developers don't want to be the first in the market. So there were two projects that were moving forward at the same time when this plan was being created. One was at the Lee Johnson site, and that was a Google campus was looking at redeveloping. And as I understand it, it was also during the time when the tech office debate of how much space they needed and what was going to happen with that. So they decided not to move forward and the second project is where the former Outback Steakhouse Petco Tuesday morning was located and they had permits to build a mixed-use development and then the financial market changed and so going into the financial market we all know that you know interest rates have changed the economy as a whole and with costs have gone increased and there's a lot of uncertainty right now and so our development community does not like uncertainty and obviously also it's harder to make things pencil when the cost of capital is a lot higher so the other thing about this area is that the interchange has been under construction for quite a few years it's going to be substantially done as far as the the wash dot aspect of it at the end of this year and I think that will visually start to send a cue that okay you know this area is ready for something next but so we'll kind of see that so I I'm gonna I'm gonna jump in first and talk about Oh, I must have said this differently. What is economic development? Because I actually was doing a volunteer thing with sixth grade girls about starting a small business. And I asked, what is economic development? And this sixth grade young woman said, it's developing the economy. I'm like, there you go. Perfect. But there's a lot more to that. And so this is like, as a general economic development, people, I can't believe I put this one, okay. Going back, sorry. So this is in general what, if you go to any state in the country, talk about it more generally. This is really a high level description of what economic development is. Sometimes people think it's about giving businesses everything they want, bringing businesses in at all costs, but it's not. It's really about, I call it community development, and making sure that we have the things not only to support our residents, but also to ensure that there's equitable opportunities, there's job creation for people who live here or live in the area, And again, for the city to have a strong tax base, which allows us to do many of our programs. Getting more specific here in Kirkland, how many of you were involved in the comprehensive plan development this past? Yay, okay. So you are probably very aware of every element, I'm sure. But this is what, I was not here at the time for the comprehensive plan development, but this is what is in the current element for economic development. And so again, very similar to what you saw. And a sustainable and resilient economy, I think, is something that, again, in the Pacific Northwest is really important, or in other states as well. Hey, look at all those tiny prints. So that was the higher, you know, and this is the list of things you guys created for me. Just kidding. So this is a list that the goals and policies. And so there is a lot. And this actually I intentionally didn't increase the font because it truly speaks to what. all is potentially under economic development, how we can impact things. So from infrastructure to making sure that we have a positive business climate to working again with the diverse community that we have. So I did instead a word cloud of those words. And so it's kind of interesting, you know, the points that I kind of picked out from here is that there's a lot about encourage, promote, support. So there was actually 15 different times that those showed up. And I think that's really important information. For economic developers, we don't go and invest in and take that risk to build the building to create the business. We're trying to help others do those things and trying to encourage them, and as you talk about, incentivize them. But again, these are... These words are as varied as the work we do and we really do this on a regional basis. It's important to think about how we not only can help Kirkland, but how we can benefit by working regionally because a lot of our surrounding communities are doing some similar things around economic development. And then on top of the comp plan, we do have an economic development plan that was developed again before I started, but it pretty much addresses the business climate, healthy economy for jobs and businesses. And the further and for all were actually highlighted in the economic development plan. So it really talks about furthering our qualities that make Kirkland a great place. So not trying to change, trying to find the businesses, the development, the aspects of bringing things into the community that really fit. And we're not just like, please come here. So what does that really mean in the day-to-day? Well, that changes every day. But the two big projects that I'm working on are the Kraken facility and the Northeast 85th. But everyday things that we do, we respond to businesses who contact us, questions about city process, They want to know what they need to do to get a business license, what they need to do in order to move forward with figuring out where they can locate in the city. So we have a database. We can help them identify spaces in their range. We're not serving as a broker. We're not answering legal questions or serving as their accountant. But we do have a couple of programs that have one-on-one free business consultations that we can refer them to. So Startup 425 is a regional of six cities in the east side. So Kirkland, Issaquah, Renton, Bellevue, Redmond, Renton, Issaquah, Kirkland, Bellevue, and Bothell. We have two part-time people who are those consultants, and they also do an accelerator for businesses that want to grow their business once they're at a certain stage. So there's a lot of, again, coordination so we don't all have to do the same thing. We also do co-working day in this space most of the time. And that's where people who are looking to start up or to grow their business come in. They may end up talking to another business that's in the room and really make those connections and help, hey, problem solve. And our two business advisors are there that day. to help out. We also have tourism under economic development. And so at the bottom there, their Junior League Softball World Series comes to Kirkland. And that brings people internationally to stay in our hotels. And so that's a really great opportunity. We do a monthly newsletter to businesses that tells them about the opportunities for workshops, for resources, a new program at the city. And we have a website that's a shop local website where they can put their business as a listing and explore Kirkland, which is more on the tourism side, but also talks about for visitors who are coming in and, you know, hey, where should I go eat? That's a resource that we promote as well. And so for the economic development portion of my thing, there's only two of us. So that's why I joked of all the projects that you, the ideas and the comprehensive plan. But really, I jokingly have a mirror on here because when I talk to my colleagues at the city or other community members, it really is, we look to you to help share with us If a business is struggling, if there's something that's really great we should promote, we should talk about and celebrate in our next podcast for this week in Kirkland. And we serve as a business liaison. So if there are any questions that have nothing to do with us, we will help them find that answer. So it's really about trying to provide less barriers and sometimes we you know we have to say this is why this you require to do this but it's really working with the businesses to meet them where they are and provide those resources as best we can we don't have grants we don't have loans it's more about the services and connecting with those things so before I move on to the Northeast 85th portion of my presentation do you have any questions about economic development yes

I have just a question, and I'm curious as to, just for Kirkland in general, kind of what its tax base is. I know you mentioned a strong tax base, but that encompasses everything from people paying property taxes to sales tax to probably business taxes. And I'm curious, too, if you have any idea how that compares to other surrounding cities. Wow. Did someone queue up for that question?

So just the beginning of this month, I think it was, the city council asked us to actually look at the option to do a competitiveness study for businesses. That was done actually in 2010 here in Kirkland and then updated a little later. It would look at our surrounding cities and our peers and how much it is. Because we don't have a business and occupation tax, but other cities do, so just comparing the total cost of what it actually takes to do business. Then also looking at the things that we don't control, such as the lease rates are in the city and utility rates and some other things. really trying to better understand that whole aspect. So stay tuned for that. I know that the 2010 study had some benefits, again, for different aspects, because obviously, again, cities, and you know this, collect taxes different ways and have different rules that may cost or be a barrier in different ways. So it's hard sometimes to do apples to apples, but in the aspects of costs to actually start a business, it appeared that Kirkland was on the right side of being business friendly as far as that concerns. So we'll find out if we do proceed with that. That's an if, because it was just a legislative request to explore what those options could be. Any other questions?

Okay.

Now, Northeast 85th. Again, some of you are way more aware of this plan and this area than I am. This is what it looks like today. I know when you look at on the bottom half of the slide on the east side of 405, you do see a lot of parking lots and single story buildings. And so the vision, again, for all of you who worked on it, thank you for having this vision. You'll notice that the density, again, these are not, that this will happen exactly like this, but that really, concentrates the density along Northeast 85th and then along 405. So you'll see that the houses that are reflected down below Lake Washington High School, football field, um, you know, this, the northeast 85th station area does not increase the density to say this is where we want to see a six story building, right? And so that really helps us to better use our land that is very obviously, um, uh, restrict or restricted. So, um, This is a slide of the zoning, which again, you guys know more of this than I, but this, again, you'll see with the height limits that were set there, that we're looking along 405 to be up to 250 feet on the Lee Johnson site. And again, that's because along, that was commercial, so looking at office space. Or a hotel, perhaps. But having buildings that are not housing people along 405 is a good use of that land there to redevelop. So what have we been doing and I say we because you're looking at the the group right here so this is a summary of things that Have been done or being worked on right now And so the first box on the left really talks about the items that are currently in the stationary plan And so I mentioned some of these are there any questions for those of you or just that people want to point out that about any of these development incentives that are currently in the plan and again these are very progressive for um uh i've worked in several cities and the the amount of items again already in the plan um sets us up really nicely i think to as things start to move to really make things happen any questions or comments So then the middle box is really about what we're doing right now. And so as Allison mentioned, there are a lot of things you can do with code, and then there's a lot of things you need to look at working with the market and other opportunities. So NAOP, UIL, which is Urban Land Institute, and BizNow are real estate organizations, associations. And so I've been working with all three of those organizations going to monthly meetings, cold calling, you know, going up and talking to developers and really trying to promote the opportunity that's here in the Northeast 85th Station area because a lot of people were not aware. They know that Eastside is a good They may focus in Seattle and maybe dabble in Bellevue. And so what we did was, from that work I did early on, was to hold a developer, an investor, and a property owner roundtable in November. And so you have that and more information in your packet. But what we did was really start to walk through and show, again, the incentives that are on that left column and listen to them about what concerns they have. And a lot of times they say, well, we don't like that you require commercial on the ground floor. We say, we don't, right? So it was a good opportunity to start that interest. And I know for a fact that Several developers from that meeting have been now exploring and are talking to property owners off record type of thing because there's no for sale signs up there, obviously, and really trying to see if something can work out because they see the opportunity and the advantage of redeveloping here. The branding and marketing is something that if anybody has to say Northeast Street Station Area Plan 12 times in a paragraph, it's kind of hard to say. But really, it's not just about the name, but it's about what is it that we want to see there. So when you drive down 85th now, people don't have the vision that you see in the plan, right? And you can talk about it, but we... want to be able to set the stage for the feel of what this community, this neighborhood can be. And in that also project where we just kicked off last week, two weeks ago, is creating marketing materials that really speak to developers and investors at this time. So while the branding and the name of the area that will come out, and we'll make sure that you're aware as we progress along that, will be meant, we hope, to be used by businesses that are currently there, businesses that will come in the future, to really create a sense of place. The marketing at this time isn't about bringing businesses in, but it's about bringing developers in to understand, again, all the advantages of developing in Kirkland. and we continue again to have conversations with developers every day um and uh we actually next um yeah so uh we next i guess two weeks from now i'm meeting with the naiop government affairs person to talk about how we can host an event or have a conversation with the developers to really get more feedback on specifics i think the hard thing i will say though is until you dive into the code you don't know where the code's going to be a challenge and so because it's a new code, you know, we're, we're, we're open to hearing ideas, but, and I will say one of the sites that is not on the Northeast 85th side, but in the more flexible, what's that called? Urban flex district. There's a developer who has been looking and I will say that the planning and building staff have been so helpful sitting down and talking about well this is how the property is and you want this and how I want to do that but it doesn't work this way how can we you know work to adjust or to meet the intent of the code and so this staff have been amazing to you know not to say sorry you have to do it so you know if we get more solid interest on Northeast 85th we'll learn a lot more and be able to kind of bring those things to the forefront of wow this is a problem for you know, all of this or just a site specific? I've made a connection with the University of Washington's Runstad Department and looking at could there be a student project, looking at something in the station area. And so we're kind of starting, we started the conversation and they were really, initially when I've met them, they were looking for jobs for their students and so not quite there yet. The other LRM, if you know that term, legislative request memo that was submitted earlier, or maybe fall last year, was to look at the grocery industry because at the time when Kroger closed down stores in the region, we wanted to make sure, one, that we as Kirkland were not on the next closure list and learning about why and what we could do, but also looking at in the Northeast 85th, how can we attract a grocer? What's important for them? And so right now, we have had individual conversations with a few grocer chains. And so we're trying to determine if it makes sense to bring together as a round table, because sometimes you don't get, you know, you're afraid of competitive information that they may not share together. So we are talking to them about Kirkland Market and I will tell you that at least the Kroger and I want to say Safeway folks that we've talked to say our stores are doing well our police address public safety issues much more on a higher level than other places and so there we're fine for now okay I should not say that in the uncertainty that happens here in this world but there's not a imminent danger of this The Kraken so that was one of the pictures there and so we do believe that the Kraken iceplex will begin to create additional need for room nights hotels here in the city and we could see that fitting perfectly in Northeast 85th corridor as well as other amenities that as You know, there's going to be a tournament all weekend. What do you do when you're not waiting in the ice or the parents want to drop off and they want to go, you know, someplace to have a dinner or some coffee while they're waiting for practice and game to start? So we do think that there'll be a lot of development interest based on when that is operational because they do expect to be, you know, having tournaments weekly, right, and bringing in lots of people. And then this last one, again, just kind of reiterates. So we're working directly. I've had probably a half dozen or more developers, including hotel developers, come in, meet with us. Planning staff may be in it. or our city manager is in talking about what things they're interested in. And a couple of them came in looking at other areas of town. I'm like, look at Northeast 85th. And so that is, you know, obviously we want every part of our city to, you know, get the development that they need, but just making sure that everybody's aware of those opportunities. Any questions about that somewhat longest? Yeah.

So I have two questions, one related to the grocery. I'm just curious with the Safeway on 124th and the QFC in Kirkland Urban, just kind of the rationale and the urgency of having another one on 85th Street corridor.

I don't know that there's an urgency. When I talk about grocery store, maybe there's a different size or that. So I'm not saying we'd have a second QFC or Safeway on Northeast 85th, but maybe there would be more ethnic-focused or maybe a more specialty-focused. Again, we don't want to lose Safeway on 85th. It gets redeveloped. We don't want to lose any other of the grocery stores in any of our neighborhoods. So that was more of the, are you going to close? Do you feel that there's any concern there? And so hopefully redeveloping to find a space that, you know, the owners of that land or redevelopment firm will find a place for Safeway to continue.

And then did I glean from your comments that there are actually potential hotel entities? Interest. Interest.

Yeah, so there's a big funnel, right? So lots of people talk to us, and then it may end up with nothing. But yeah, there is, and I will say, and not just because of the Kraken, but that does add. We did a study, or the city did a study, while they were analyzing the Kraken opportunity, and it showed that we are low on room nights for the size of our city and the amenities here. And so those people are going to Redmond and Bellevue to stay. Right? And that, you know, there are people that could be here eating in our restaurants, enjoying our community.

So, yeah. Yeah, just to follow on the groceries, there are actually two ethnic groceries between 120th and 120, or sorry, 122nd and 124th, one on each side of the street there. And so that, you know, that is, and one of them just took root there like within the past year or so.

Okay.

That's We're seeing that a little bit. One of the big opportunities or perhaps areas where I could see us being able to potentially improve and maybe even tap into the students to dig into this a bit further is I see a lot of ways in which if we were able to nurture smaller increments of building, especially given the existing financial economic situation, it's a lot easier to finance a smaller scale project that can be completed on a more aggressive time scale and reducing the uncertainties. And so I would love to, if there is the capacity for doing research and identifying what are some of the ways that we could improve the regulations or programs in order to nurture smaller scale development. And by smaller scale, I don't mean like, lower density or lower capacity, I mean smaller footprints, so that they can be built in smaller increments. And especially given some of the context around some of the smaller owned lots that are in the area, that could unlock some. And there's also a lot of people sitting on retirement funds where the money is all invested on Wall Street today. And if there was some vehicle to bring some of that investment here in our own community. I know it's probably, like, a bit pushing beyond the edge of your usual scope, and, you know, but I think these are some areas that could be interesting to research and figure out what are some potential paths to uncover.

Like a co-op investment group or something?

Yeah, yeah.

I've seen that in other cities, and it usually is led from the community or somebody of, yeah.

Yes, I think ultimately it would have to be led by the community, but there maybe is, like, some sort of, like, bringing together people who maybe are interested in that so they can, like, go and make that happen.

Yeah, that's what economic development does. Bring people together, make those connections, and then supports how they can. Yeah, great. Any other questions? And then code changes. I don't know why I'm talking about code changes to you, but so these are the things, again, that we heard. Some of the stuff we've heard in the developer roundtable, some of it this team is implementing because of just knowing how the code works and some of its state, right? So you pretty much know that, thank you, supporting the parking minimums, eliminating those. And that's one thing developers have said over and over again is parking requirements. And, you know, I'm like, do you know what really what our parking requirements were? I mean, they weren't exactly high, but and these developers are not going to build units they can't rent and they need You know a space for a car to rent to somebody so But these other items, you know are moving forward now and again we'll see as we continue our conversations with the developers and have the ability to kind of dive in a little bit more with someone who's Looking at a particular property and looking at the code and seeing what what is Not working or not. So and again, you know, the development agreements are one way to kind of potentially address that if those three items are passed. Okay. All right, so yeah, so what's next? So again, we just kicked off the branding and marketing, so stay tuned for what this name will be. But also, having the materials to be able to share with developers, and this is where I get my mirror out. And it's like, if you happen to meet somebody who's in the development or investment world, and want to share my contact information or say, hey, would you be interested if I passed on your name to our economic development manager? I will cold call, reach out, and help them to better understand what's here in Northeast 85th. I was just on Wednesday at the NAOP monthly breakfast, and so continuing to do that, make those relationships. I mentioned I'm meeting with the government affairs person in two weeks, and one of the individuals that I talked to is talking to other cities as well about what are the things that cities can do to encourage development at this time. I think we've heard a lot of the things that include, again, the parking requirements, making sure you don't require too much commercial, thinking about affordable housing levels, thinking about just standards in general that are required too much for what the design is. But we also know we wanna have high quality development, because it's gonna be there for a good 50, 75 or more years. You may not know this, but the TIF, so that's the Tax Increment Finance District, is actually investing in the district right now. So that right turn lane they're adding um on 85th and northeast so not the shared use um pathway but they they're investing in that to help that make uh to help that make happen and so as we begin you know begin to collect more money they'll be able to invest in potentially with other additional money identified, water main projects, other things that will make it easier for developers to not have to do a whole line of improvements in the right of way and then wait to get paid back at late comers or something else. So those type of things are really important because they can kill a deal if it's too expensive to do that kind of work. And then, like I mentioned earlier, you know, our collaborative approach, and I say, again, we, because these guys are talking to, you know, and their staff are talking every day to people. And so we are not saying, nope, we don't want to do that here in Northeast 85th. You know, we are willing to talk about things. We're willing to explore things. And so I think that's the message also to put out about Northeast 85th is, again, not everything, you know, we're not looking at some... A joke of the horse rendering plant. But things that meet the vision, we're very interested in seeing what things, what innovative things can happen. But we also want to make sure that it's done right. Questions?

Commissioner Buñuel.

This is more of a general question, but City used to post a spreadsheet on the dashboards that listed all the projects that were in permit or whatever, and it hasn't been, I don't know, I haven't looked. I'm not sure if it's been updated lately, but I'm just kind of wondering, is there anything meaningful in the pipeline for 2026?

So you're talking in general the city or Northeast 85th?

No, just the city in general. I'm just kind of wondering if the economic financial situation has put the kibosh on some, any sort of commercial multifamily development in the city. I think they're quickly looking it up.

Yeah, actually, thanks, Commissioner Buñuel. Don Nelson, our planning manager, updates the major development project spreadsheet every, we try to do it every quarter. It's not exactly every quarter, but I think a new, I think Don is working on the latest version of that to come to council really soon. We can distribute that to planning commission also. I guess, so I can't cite any specific projects that have come up on the last spreadsheet. I think that what we're seeing in Kirkland is not a complete deadening of the multifamily development scene compared to other cities at least. So we actually are seeing some multifamily projects continue to come through the pipeline. So we've had some pre-submittal meetings over the last couple months with developers who have been interested in pursuing multifamily projects. I think that's something that makes me feel a little optimistic about that because, again, that's not something that other cities are seeing. Not a ton of new commercial projects, obviously. So that has not been super active lately. And then this is something that doesn't show up on the major development project spreadsheet, but we're seeing continued interest in single family middle housing, ADUs. So that's been a really strong sector of the local real estate economy. And we can distribute the major development project spreadsheet when it's released.

As I say, I was noticing that I also subscribe to just the planning notices and stuff. And it used to be you'd see a lot of short plats and such. And those notices are kind of few and far between. I'm just kind of wondering what sort of development activity or what kind of permits are getting submitted in the last year.

Yeah, thanks. Good question again. We definitely have seen a downward trend in short plots, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there's not development activity happening. A lot of them are, you know, what happened after adoption of the middle housing reform in 2020 and then sort of continued on for a couple years was developers deciding not to do short plots, but to build cottage projects, lesser extent duplex, triplex projects, we don't have a ton of those, but ADU projects as well, and then condo-wise everything.

not going through the short plot process so that is something that has dropped off short plots have dropped off but we haven't seen a concurrent reduction in actual housing units getting produced and i'll just add just for regionally i mean as we drive down the highway we see less cranes in downtown seattle downtown bellevue and so you know talking to my colleagues in other cities it's and his colleagues, I'm sure, that's saying the same thing, that it's definitely slowed. And I think, you know, we're hoping that the developers are, you know, starting to kind of get to that point where they can see that things are either stable, you know, we're not going to get back to 2% or 3% interest, but, you know, this is where this is at and have some, a little bit of clarity on moving forward, so.

Vice Chair.

Thank you. This is kind of one question and a related question. In the review of the roundtable recap, there's a number of things mentioned by developers, but basically summarizing as it seems like one of the biggest issues is we have high interest rates and we need to get used to that. How much and how do you take in feedback and summarize it and then give it to the city, city council, to us. Um, when you're here, when you're talking with people trying to get them to invest in Kirkland and they say, well, I'm concerned about this or, um, because like, especially when it's like land costs, well, the cost of the land is relative to what you can do with it and how, what, how expensive it is to do what you want to do with it. Um, and so it, I don't want us to just throw our hands up in the air and say high interest rates, high land costs, as if we don't have any responsibility for that. So I'm curious what the process is.

Yeah, no, that's a great question. And again, land cost is not something we control because we don't own the land, right? But I will say when I'm out talking to developers and there is something that is within our purview, I don't wait to write a report or a memo or wait for the next meeting. I'll walk over and talk to one of these two or another person and be like, hey, this is what I heard. And then, you know, sometimes the information, you know, there's two sides of the story. But really, if there's a nugget of... of information that we can take and see, is this a trend? Is this something that, again, is it a bad experience that somebody had or is this property only? But really, yeah, we're not just sitting here and just waiting. So again, if... trying to be in people's awareness and talking to them and working through their concerns before they even find a location is helpful because then they know we're willing to work with them. And so having, again, the plan that provides all those incentives is a really good start. So if somebody comes and says, well, I want... You know, something else, it's like, well, let's talk about how we could, again, meet the current code intent or adjust the code to make that happen if it fits the vision. But we haven't, you know, we haven't gotten too far with people yet. So I don't know if Adam wants to add or Allie wants to add anything because I kind of just told them that we're going to do new things and fun things. I make up the fun things and they have to, you know, figure it out.

Yeah, I will just note quickly about the developers roundtable because Adam and I were also there and I think the two strongest messages we heard, which were pretty strong at the time, were parking minimums and design review because we hadn't adopted either of those yet. And I would say since November City you have recommended and City Council has a comp has done both of those things, right? They passed the design review streamlining and they completely eliminating eliminated parking minimums in the station area And those were I think the two clear Zoning barriers that we that we heard and that we've made significant progress on since November. I

I guess that's giving me another question because, um, I think when I had heard some of the conversations coming out of that round table, it seemed to me like there's two ways you could take the request on parking and design review. One is this will really move the needle. And another way is, well, why haven't you done this yet? Like this is a good signal if you do this. And so I'm curious whether you were under the impression that, um, the complying with parking will really move the needle or is it just more it shows that the city is serious about making things possible as like a first step rather than a final step.

I would invite Adam or Jen to weigh in here and I guess all I would say is I'm not sure what angle the message was being delivered or what their perspective was. All I heard was that this is a change I would focus on from the developers. I don't know if either of them recall

Yeah, I can chime in too. I mean, I guess the sense that I got from the developers around the table, we probably all had maybe slightly different takes, I what I heard from them was that there's a cumulative effect of like all these different factors that are happening in the economy and then also on the regulatory side the interest rates the high land values high labor costs just difficulty doing projects in this environment on the regulatory side parking certainly design review I think we also heard a little bit about affordable housing regulations as well and that's something that we hear. all the time, right, from developers. So the sense I got is that, yeah, it's sort of the cumulative effect of all of these. I mean, there were some developers at the round table that said that even if you change these regulations, the market just simply isn't that great right now for multifamily development. It's really challenging out there, and I don't think that suggests that we shouldn't be aggressive with making our regulations better, but there's just lots of factors at play right now, so I think any one change is not going to be super meaningful in moving the needle. But again, that still means we need to do even more diligent work at making it as easy as possible.

If it was one or two things, we'd have solved it already. Darn it.

And I think signaling and showing that we hear you, because a lot of times government says, okay, thank you, and then two years later we say, oh, look what we did, right? And so I think the quickness of the response, I mean, you know, I think the design review was in the process at that time. But the decision for the city to go forward and push for that work plan around the parking, I'm going to promote that, right? I'm going to say, hey, we heard and we listened and we act quickly. And that says a lot. I mean, a lot of people I talk to say, you know, you guys are listening and you're willing to hear good and bad, right? And they know that, you know, they're not going to be able to ask for something we all agree exactly. But I think the fact that they can see us doing these things and willingness to talk about them is half the battle. Because a lot of times they get a no, read our code, you know, whatever, the reason they can't do it. And that's, again, not from Kirkland, but from, you know, communities and all the communities they work in. And I think that's the biggest thing is this isn't about do I build a Northeast 85th or a Totem or Northeast 85th or Bellevue. It's Texas and Florida and... Because the developers don't have the money to build. It's the investors who are then looking at the bottom line and saying, what's my rate of return? So if I can get... And I'm making up numbers, so please, developers, don't get mad at me. But I'm just going to make up numbers. But if I make 5%, you know, on a project in one place and 7% in the other... I mean, what would you do with your money, right?

5%, you put it into the bank. Don't do anything risky.

Yeah, right. And if it's low and it's risky, right, so it's like projected 5%, or you can go and buy a CD, right, or, you know. So there's a lot of things, again, that we can't control. So that's why we're also talking to investors and, again, telling that story.

Yeah. And then my last question, and I think I forwarded my questions, the general idea in advance... Later this year, we're going to be talking about sort of more neighborhood commercial uses. So primarily smaller businesses in smaller footprints, not in, I mean, it can be in the station area, but not on 85th. And so I'm curious how much we're getting lessons from talking with these more bigger business opportunities and how much we can apply that for making smaller businesses more viable in Kirkland. again you mean viable in a new development like on 85th because or viable as a city as a city in in general because one of the one of the work plan items that the planning commission will be talking about is um making it possible to potentially have smaller businesses um in predominantly residential areas um as well as uh changing our home occupation allowances and things like that and so i'm trying to think about what are some lessons about The city's systems and regulations that could be potentially applicable in that as well.

Yeah. So I'm going to talk about it first from the market aspect, because when a new building is built, that rent is going to be more expensive. So a small business could afford it if they're well capitalized and have been in business for a while. But if you're a startup business. you may not be able to afford the $45 per square foot rent where you could do a 20 or 30. I know that I've worked with the developers in other cities where they've created smaller spaces. They're still charging the 45, but there's a lot less space they're renting and allows them to be able to afford to do that. But that developer intentionally did that, knowing what he wanted to have in his retail space. So we can always talk to developers and show how that's a good idea and that type of thing. But a lot of the commercial spaces that are built in our mixed-use buildings aren't huge. You know, they may be taking out a shopping center that's, you know, 50,000 square feet and they're, you know, replacing it with 10, 15,000. So I don't want to get into that whole discussion. But but so I think part of what we can do for regulations, I will pass to them. But part of what we can do is to, again, help provide resources to help them grow and get to the point they can afford that. $45, right? And working with property owners that have current spaces that may not be rented and figure out how we can better utilize that because maybe it's not rented because it's not a good location. So, okay, think about reducing the rent. I mean, again, that's nothing we can control, but we can potentially help broker or connect them with businesses that might be a good fit there. so it increases the space. So how are you going to fix that with code?

Okay, thank you.

Do you want to go first?

Oh, sorry, did you?

Just to add something really, really fast, and we're so excited to get into this discussion later in the year because it's an important topic and it's an interesting topic as well. The only other thing I would mention to add on to what Jen was talking about is that I think we have a lot of potential to leverage our existing home occupation regulations as well. We have an amazing number of small businesses that operate out of our residential neighborhoods already. It's actually incredible when you go into our database to find all the businesses that exist right now in the city today, people just working out of their homes. It's a huge amount, I think probably under acknowledged. And at the same time, we have very restrictive home occupation regulations. We limit numbers of customers. We limit deliveries. We limit traffic. We limit all sorts of things, hours of operation, et cetera. So I think even just delving into those regulations and making it a little bit easier for people to do home occupations will have, I think, pretty significant impacts on small businesses and fledgling businesses. Because what cheaper place to run a business out of than your home that you already rent or already own?

And I'll just say that in the previous city I worked in, we actually worked then with those home-based businesses and, again, made those connections, made connections with each other. And, you know, some of them, home-based businesses want to stay, you know, small and stay what they're doing. Great, making sure you can do that. But those will be, you know, some of those will grow. We want them to locate in Kirkland, right, not to go someplace else because our regulations are not up to par. So hand in hand.

Commissioner Reiser?

In all your roundtables, and this is kind of a, I don't know, controversial topic, but we were pretty heavy on our affordable housing. Has there been any flexibility or, you know, we have a pioneer program, but it's a big station area and we just haven't gotten anything done.

really going?

Has that been a topic for the developers and have they come up with maybe some more flexible or ingenious ways of achieving affordable housing?

Well, yeah, I think it depends on the developer and where their aspect is and where their financing comes from, because that will impact what they can build at what levels. And I think there's been a lot of studies that have occurred here and at other places in the region about what's, you know, how to better do this. But I think developers... Generally want a higher AMI level, so 80% AMI, 70%, 60%, 50%, meaning that people that earn more money can afford to live there versus earning less. But there is a need for the folks who are gonna work at that grocery store and are gonna work in that small business bakery and those type of things. And so we as a city are trying to think holistically about How can, you know, as you talk about cottages and ADUs, great, because not everybody wants to live in a large apartment community. So I think, yeah, that's a whole other topic that I don't think, yeah, it's probably many, many, many conversations about that. But nobody, I will say no developer has come and said, this is how I figured it out. It's trying to adjust. and figuring out, can I get less requirement? And so I think the Pioneers Program is helpful for that because it does eliminate the first 694 units in the community. And so when we told them that, they're like, oh, okay. So, or until 2030, if this gets passed. Correct. So that's, I think, really important to think about that people can develop from now until 2030. Again, if it's passed, you know, would have that incentive there for them. And that's that's pretty big.

Wow. Commissioner Medea.

I have pretty much answered anything. It is okay. As we are thinking about the types of businesses we are trying to attract, it occurs to me that I would imagine child care will continue to be a much needed service as more folks move in. Have those conversations started or is that in the put a pin in it file? We have the one right there on 85th next to the dry cleaner or whatever, the kinder care. We're going to need that.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And child care, as you know, is well coveted and needed and is also typically not one that can pay $50 a square foot, right? So we haven't had an intentional recruitment for child care, but when we do talk to people, and again, we talk to some people who are trying to do it in their home, and that's, again, something that... That is an important addition, but it's not a level of service that's going to fully meet the need. We try to look for locations. We help them identify areas, thinking about where... There's programs through the state to help new child care providers start up. We also have shared in the past with the providers that currently exist, there's money to help them expand site or second site and get training for staff. And so all those things that help that business be able to increase their level of service. So, yeah, I think that's an issue that lots of people are looking at. And I have a feeling there's a code component of it.

Then I have another question. When we are attracting businesses here, you probably saw the headlines today that there are more layoffs happening, especially in the tech space. I would hope and I imagine you are doing everything we can to try to find ways to insulate ourselves from that being the primary employer here, because that continues to keep me up at night.

Oh, for sure. What we'll start to see is those employees coming to that co-working and that startup for 2.5 because they typically have a time when people decide to start their own business. And so next Friday, we're hosting a delegation of international businesses from nine countries, right? And so we're looking at, again, there's life science, there's manufacturing, there's that. And so a wide variety in IT, like there's a wide variety within there. So we are doing, you know, what we can to kind of showcase Kirkland and, you know, diversify so that the people who live here can work here as well, so.

Well, we look forward to the update from the May 1st meeting. That sounds exciting.

Looks like that's it for right now. Thank you.

Thank you very much. And again, I appreciate you taking time to hear from me. And if there's any questions along the way, you know how to get a hold of me. And if there's, again, people that you meet that you think would be a great contact to explore things on Northeast 85th, that's what we're here for. Thanks.

All right. I believe... Your calendar update. And maybe if we also want to recap for anyone who didn't listen into the council meeting Tuesday night.

That was on my list, Chair Rosman. I was wondering if you wanted to start that or if you'd like a staff overview. Go ahead. I caused enough problems. Thanks. So yeah, we'll do a council recap first. So On Tuesday night, two big planning items that had been through planning commission went in front of council. The first was the recommended amendments to the station area plan. So you held the public hearing for that about a month ago. And just as a reminder, your recommendation was to prohibit townhomes in the stationary districts with a provision that would allow existing pipeline projects to be completed. You also recommended that the affordable housing pioneer provision be extended to 2029. And then you recommended that development agreements be opened up as to allow proponents to also request additional height or to develop a use that isn't otherwise allowed in that zone. So it doesn't mean you were Recommending more height or different uses but people would be able to request it with the development agreement. So That package of amendments went in front of council Council discussion centered mostly I think around the townhome Prohibition and chair Rosman was there with us to help reflect the Planning Commission's discussion around that item there was an amendment put forward by council member Paschal and seconded by council member Falcone and to remove the townhome prohibition from that package of amendments. So in other words, to continue allowing townhomes to be developed in the station area. And with that amendment through discussion, council did decide to table the motion, the overall motion, and ask staff to bring that back to their next meeting on May 5th. And so that item is open at council from their discussion. And someone please correct me if they read wrong, but we didn't receive as many questions about the development agreement provision or the affordable housing pioneer provision. Of course they didn't vote on it yet. So there's no official, you know, yay or nay, but it seems like the, ongoing conversation is primarily centered on the townhome prohibition and so We have a request and staff is working on a staff memo now for the May 5th meeting But it seems like there's a desire from council to have staff offer perhaps an option for how a townhome prohibition might be more narrowly scoped. So perhaps townhomes would only be prohibited in a part of the station area and not the entire station area. And so we're considering that now as we write that staff memo.

I do want to add too, though, that Most of the discussion focused around not necessarily wanting to have townhomes everywhere, but more being cautious on prohibitions. But focused on not wanting townhomes on the big catalyst area sites that we envisioned lots of stuff, especially closer to the freeway, which is, I think, part of why it got tabled rather than voted on. was a realization that you know maybe there's some other opportunities and I did give them feedback that we had had conversations in our meetings that as a group we weren't super thrilled with the idea of prohibiting use types but our understanding was that council direction was pretty strong on wanting to prohibit townhomes. And so that was why our discussion stayed there. So we talked a bit about how we'd had conversations about how, you know, we would rather focus on incentives than prohibiting a use type. And had some conversations about especially some of the smaller sites in the station area. Staff had data that said like what, 45% of the parcels are under a half an acre. And talked a little bit about how much like a 10,000 square foot lot, you're not going to get a mixed use project on. But it also doesn't make sense to do a development agreement to get eight town homes. SO I THINK THAT'S WHERE IT GOT A LITTLE BACK AND FORTH AND THEY'RE GOING TO BRING SOME AMENDMENTS FORWARD AND POTENTIALLY LOOK AT DIFFERENT WAYS TO NARROW THAT AND, YOU KNOW, TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, HOW OTHER CITIES DON'T PROHIBIT TOWNHOMES. THEY DO MORE OF A MINIMUM DENSITY REQUIREMENT SO I DON'T THINK THEY REALLY KNOW EXACTLY WHERE THEY'RE GOING TO GO YET BUT THAT THEY WANTED TO JUST GIVE IT TWO MORE WEEKS AND HAVE A more intentional plan. I will say just to update all of you too, I went back after and tried to Google to see if there's anywhere else in the country that prohibits townhomes as a use type. Not in the single family only allowed, but the like not allowing. And I couldn't find anything. So I reached out to Sightline, which is like a big housing research group, and asked if they had known of any. And they said no, that they didn't know of anywhere that specifically prohibits townhomes as a use type. in the to have more density direction. So I don't know if that's helpful for staff too, because I definitely tried to look and everything I was finding was like talking about single family zoning as prohibiting townhomes and not the other direction.

I think that's the update.

Anything? I know... Oh, well, but on that one, I don't know if anyone else listened in and had any other thoughts to add or, um, yeah, then planning work program, I feel like was pretty straightforward. Um, council member Tim Chisholm added a note saying that basically the work plan is a, um, you know, a guiding document rather than a set in stone list.

Yeah, I think there was a desire to make sure that the task descriptions were not kind of predetermining an outcome of a task. And so there's a note that got added. None of the task descriptions themselves as recommended by Planning Commission were amended. I think Council had the most questions around the focused middle housing project. The project to evaluate housing affordability requirements citywide, and then a couple questions about the projects to look at the potential of consolidating and or streamlining our low density residential zones and then the neighborhood center zoning. And those were a little bit more related to timing and staff capacities.

And I guess questions on the like list of like what we might focus on with the middle housing and I reiterated that it was really the list of what we might talk about was less important than the list of like this is the stuff we don't think we will talk about at this point. Um, but everyone seemed fine once that amendment was added just to give a little more flexibility.

All right. So I do have a calendar update for you. Our next meeting is on May 15th, which feels like a long way away, but April has five weeks, so you get a little bit of a break. And we don't have to necessarily finish a staff report next week, too. So, yes. May 14th, sorry. Okay. Sorry, May 14th. So at that meeting, we'll be bringing a public hearing on the state lot splitting bill in front of you. We've talked about that a couple times and got Planning Commission okay to take that straight to hearing. So we'll be bringing that. The other item I wanted to note for May 14th is that per your policies and procedures, the first meeting in May is when Planning Commission holds officer elections. So we will be doing that that night as well. May 28th is the meeting that we didn't have anything on your agenda But Planning Commission wanted to still hold a meeting and have an open discussion And so that didn't make it onto the public calendar But that is still the plan as far as staff is aware And so we'll get that added to the public meeting calendar and then move forward with noticing that Please do reach out if there's anything that would be helpful for staff to prepare ahead of time otherwise, I think we would just kind of be here to listen in and support as questions come up. But do let us know if there's something specific we can do to help you get ready for that conversation.

Can I ask, too, if anyone has topics they'd like to talk about, if you could send them to staff ahead of time so that we can see a list and have a sense of what people want to talk about, I think that would be helpful. How early would you like those questions, if possible? or topics if they're not necessarily questions. Like example, I would like to talk about how steep slopes impact zoning or something. I don't know.

Yeah, I'd love to hear some ideas maybe at your next meeting on May 14th. Just because some of those topics we might want to do a little bit of research. Maybe we could get you some quick reading materials ahead of time for those that are interested. I don't think we need a super hard deadline. Just know we'll try our best if maybe an idea comes up a few days before the meeting.

Does anyone have thoughts now of things that, you know, springing out on you? But if there's anything, or give it two weeks to marinate.

Okay, and this is also something that I think staff can plan on working with whoever your next chair and vice chair are to talk a little bit about how you might want to facilitate that meeting if you want to kind of set an order of operations or just truly let it flow. So that's something that I'm happy to coordinate you all on.

GO AHEAD.

I HAVE A QUICK QUESTION. ON MY NOTE FROM THE LAST TIME WE DID A CALENDAR UPDATE, THE 14TH WAS GOING TO BE DISCUSSION ON HOUSING ON FAITH-BASED LAND. IS THAT STILL GOING TO HAPPEN BUT NOT ON THAT DATE? AND IT COULD BE MY FAT FINGERS JUST PUT IT ON THE WRONG DATE.

IT IS STILL ON THE CALENDAR LOOKING.

OKAY.

OKAY. SORRY, I MIGHT HAVE MISSED THAT ONE. MY COMPUTER SHUT DOWN.

YEAH, IT IS STILL ON THE CALENDAR FROM TODAY'S PACKET. THANK YOU. SO, YES, THAT IS STILL ON THE AGENDA.

Sorry, I'm thinking about in my head because, yes, thank you. So that item was scheduled to go to council first for like a scoping meeting. The council date did get pushed a little bit, but we're taking it to council I think on May 12th. It says 5th on the calendar. To council. It says the 5th on the calendar that we have. So yeah, we can still brief council and then come back to you, report out on what we heard from council and also have a discussion with you. Thank you everyone for helping me through that.

Margaret, did you have a, yeah.

Are we allowed, when we have sort of that round table talk, can we talk about things that are on the planning work program? Not, I'm just, I'm saying this because as a newbie, some of those things have history that I would kind of like to be educated about and it would be helpful to before Commissioner Rosman leaves us to get her point of view. And I'd also, I'm sad because I wanted to learn more about affordable, from an affordable housing builder.

I'm not, like, leaving the city. I'm not pulling a cacha and moving to Spain. So I will still be here if you want to sit down and talk and, you know.

It would be good to have discussions around that, too, because it adds to the flavor of the discussion. I'm not sure if that's okay because of... OPMA and we don't want to run afoul of that.

That's the point of it being a meeting, right? Correct. So we're going to notice it as a study session, so it won't be broadcast. And I don't believe there'll be a video recording. It will be open to the public. You would be able to talk about items that are on the work program. The thing that we would avoid is making any decisions. And I think as long as you're not making decisions or kind of issuing strong direction that would drive staff in one direction or another or create work necessarily, you would be okay to discuss items that are on the work program.

Dina? Thanks. See, I missed one meeting, and then I just can't stop talking. I'm not sure if it is their plan or if it's even something they'd be comfortable with, but all of us had an opportunity recently to meet one-on-one with the mayor and the deputy mayor, and I didn't know if there were any themes from those conversations that they might want to share with us in that session.

Staff's happy to ask them. All right.

I did have one more. Well, I think we could talk about it in a meeting. Like, as long as we're all, you know, as long as it's a public meeting and we are all talking here, I don't think there's anything that's off the table, right? As long as we're doing it in the open. Like, that's the point of OPMA. It's not... not being able to talk about stuff.

Oh, can I clarify Commissioner Medea's comment? Was your question about if Planning Commission wanted to share takeaways or if the Mayor and Deputy Mayor wanted to share?

If the Mayor and Deputy Mayor had any kind of aha moments or thoughts that would be worthy of sharing to the broader group as a collective.

Okay, that's how I heard it. But I'm saying I don't think there's anything that prohibits us from having that conversation from our end. With each other. Right, as long as it's here or in like one-on-ones, yeah.

Okay, I had one more meeting update, which is jumping ahead to July. So I had mentioned to you all, I think, at a previous meeting that council chambers and the Peter Kirk room, which is another room in the downstairs of City Hall where meetings are sometimes hosted, are getting technology upgrades. And this is... giving me an opportunity to thank Tyler over here who's running three different computers and our IT friends that are downstairs in City Hall running the meeting and broadcasting it and zooming in on all of us while we talk. So it takes quite a bit to run the meetings. We're getting an IT update to council chambers and the Peter Kirk room that we're very excited for. I'm hoping it makes things a little easier for the people that do the hard behind the scenes work. But that does mean that council chambers will be offline for both of your July meetings. The solution that we've come up with is to actually hold that meeting remotely because we would just easily broadcast the Zoom meeting that you're all logged into. We are required to have a space in person available for any members of the public that would like to join us. So this is what we did during the pandemic is we would open a room and members of the public could come in. But in terms of the commissioners, it's much easier to actually have you on a Zoom meeting since our conference rooms that are available don't have the video recording technology. Did anyone show up to those? I don't recall anyone ever showing up. and like 20 we did um yeah so um right now we do have an item on your first meeting on july 9th we don't have any items currently scheduled for that july 23rd meeting so that could be a good candidate as like a summer break for you all or for us to explore another topic or another kind of round table meeting if you wanted so Just wanted to offer that up in here if there were any major concerns from Commission about that but to let you know if You wanted to go to Spain and do a meeting remotely July 9th would be a great one Because everyone's gonna be online. Yeah, we'll be in City Hall. I will not be And I think that was it from me I

Anyone else have any thoughts?

Go ahead. This one's for Tyler. I guess, because I'm retired, and so my software ability is probably from early in the century. Is there a way to make sure that my background on either Teams or Zoom looks professional and doesn't look like something wonky in my office or in my kitchen?

Yeah, we can get you a background.

Pardon?

We can get you, like, the city logo for the background.

Yeah, no, we have, like, a set planning commission one that we had when we were all virtual for, what, a year or two or something. Is it tied to your login? No, you'd have to download the... It's tied to your...

I think it's tied to the link that you joined in. I've never downloaded it.

Maybe this is like early, we had to download it, and now it's autumn.

That's the case. We used to have to download it, and now it's by default. Is that right?

Oh, okay. Never mind. So how do I check if it's not logging into a live meeting? I should just come visit you, shouldn't I? Okay, I'll do that.

Or do a call with him on using the same.

You can also get it by email because I emailed it to John Timchism when he lost his for some reason.

This is why they fixed it because we were struggling.

Creating background. All right.

All right. I think... I think we're good. So we are back to the public comment point of the meeting. So if anyone online or in person would like to speak, you would raise your hand or come up to the podium. Seeing none, I'm going to close tonight's meeting.