Zoning Board of Appeals - Regular Meeting

? Excellent. We're just missing Joan right now. We've got enough to start though. Don't we? Yep. So then, so we're gonna start. Good evening. I'm gonna Call to Order the. This May 14th, May 14th meeting of the city of Kalamazoo Zoning board of appeals. We are a volunteer advisory board appointed by. The city commission. Would staff please conduct the roll call. Han here. Work here. Hauler here, abandon Hamburg here. Harrington present. And McReynolds. Which Tony sh Tony did respond. He was gonna attend tonight. So I presume he is just running a little bit behind. Okay. Okay. Well, we'll keep pushing forward and if we need his vote, we'll, we'll wait on him. All right. So are there any announcements or changes to the pre the posted. Agenda. The one announcement I have is just a reminder that these training. With the city of Portage Zoning board of appeals, is this coming Monday, May 18th. And it is at Portage city. Hall, which is 7,900 Southwest Ridge. It starts at seven. Please show up a few minutes early. If you can, we will provide refreshments and snacks. Snacks, but, but not a dinner per se. So, and I will be there as well. And attorney bear will be there too. And that's all I've got for announcements. Terrific. Terrific. All right approval of the minutes. Are there, I assume everybody's had a chance

to look at it. Are there any corrections that need to be made to last month's minutes? When you say corrections, what do you mean by that? White. Is that different than anything it's ever met before? Are they accurate to whatever last month's meeting was? Well, I think that there needs to be. Something on record surrounding what happened last. Meeting as in regards to. The attendance. Of the secretary, which was formerly me. Okay. Yeah. So I'd like that to be addressed. What's what's the inaccuracy in the minutes, then the inaccuracy as well. It's not necessarily. It's disordered in terms of the rationale. Rationale. And so I, I made a statement mm-hmm about. My, I made a statement about my attendance being called into question as a reason. To nominate someone else. And so I just wanted it to be on record since. That's being overlooked right now. I just like that to be read into the current record for the public domain, please. I, I guess I'm not sure I'm understanding. So are the. The minutes are missing some clarification, correct? That you want like a response to, I just want it to be included into the. Mid I didn't. I just wanna, I'm just trying to understand. Yeah. So. There's something you want to say in response to the minutes? I just wanted it on record that I have the exact same amount. Of absences as the person that was nominated to replace me. I'd like to see more detail in the, the first part of the. I guess maybe the conversation between Remy and I. The, the second part was fine. When we got to our business. But, and

as far as the detail goes, I would have to go back and, and actually look. At what was missed, but in reading it there's. There's there seemed to be a fair amount that was missed. And about the, I guess the absences. Absences that Remi referred to that was the same. As Beth's was Beth was Beth's was absences were over a 12 month period. And I think Remy's was over a seven month period. So is this no, it's. It's in terms of Shelby, would you like to address that it was over the 13 month period of the nomination or the election? So all of it. So you can't, you have to take the cumulative. Number, you can't just say that over the course of a certain amount of time. And apply it. It was over the course of 13 months. So I get that. You're trying to justify your situa your position, but the reality is, is that over the course of 13 months, which is the amount of time that the attendance record. That for the, for the time that I was the secretary. So in that role, we have the same amount of absences and I'd like that to just simply be included in the record. Is this something that was discussed at the last meeting, what you are saying, or is this something yes. So make a motion for what you want added to the minutes. I would like to make a motion that. The amount of absences that I had. Are also the same amount of absences that. Gary work chair or vice chair work. He used my absences as a rationale. Rationale to nominate someone else. I made a statement at the last meeting. That that's not what should have happened. That if he had wanted to nominate somebody on their own. On for, for his own reasoning, he shouldn't have brought me into it.

And so since he wanted to say that my absences were the reason. That he nominated secretary of vend Humberg. I'd like it to be on record that secretary Vanden Hamburg has the same exact amount of absences. Absences that I do. Mr chair. Yes, sir. May I interject? This is not appropriate to add to the meeting minutes from the last meeting, because. These are comments being made that did not occur at the last meeting. Thank you. They are what's being said right now is being recorded and will be reflected in the meeting minutes. For this particular meeting, so it will be on the record. It just will not be on the record for last month. Thank you. Okay. I ironically discussing. Absences. I was not present to hear this discuss discussion, correct? no, but that was a long planned absence. So. I don't know if that makes it better, but there you go. Thank you, then I get, well, I just wanted on record. Nope. Go ahead. I wasn't stopping you. Okay. I don't know where we would put that under on here. I don't know, Shelby will figure it out. I'm sure. So then aside from that is, is there any corrections to the minutes? I asked for more detail. Okay. Okay. And I would also like to say that this is. Consistent in a microcosm of what's happening in the United States surrounding the disempowerment of the black constituency. On record. Thank you. You're welcome. So these are recorded. We have a recording that we can refer to. Correct. Yes. Yes. So what is the procedure then to.

Get more detail on it. Do we just look at Shelby and say, saved write a book. Or does somebody have to, I don't know, Charlie, you're the, you're the guy that's gonna do the parliamentary answering. Who's responsibility. Is it then to produce. Minutes. They think that are more appropriate or more. Accurate to the meeting. If they disagree with it, aside from say a small correction, like, Hey, I, you missed that. I said, this particular thing. I think that have responsibility lies with who responsibility. Oh, okay. So then I guess that goes to Shelby. Just so that when she's read. Augment not re augmenting when she's augmenting this. What is, is it just about the absences that need, that you're asking for? More detail in the minutes, Gary. I think most of it was. I think I I said that Remy wasn't at that meeting. When we voted for new officers. Officers. And I think that had Remy Bennett at that meeting. Things would've went very differently, but she wasn't there. She didn't. Didn't, you know, she didn't tell us that she wasn't gonna be there. She didn't tell us that she was still interested in being a secretary. So that's just not true. Pete, can you please speak to this? That's just not true. It's just not true. Did you say that a hundred percent? I you're just not telling the truth. Yeah. Yeah. And you. Keep dragging things like you won't just stop. Like that's not what happened. I, I did have a, an email. From Remy that she would be interested in continuing to serve it.

You know, if that's how the vote turned out. So, you know, that that was. Acknowledged. It's just so much misinformation. Well, then I apologize. We weren't, I wasn't aware of that. Gary. Okay. Like, all right. It's it's fine. I'm not mad. I'm just saying like, don't misrepresent me. I'm not angry. I'm just saying you can't exp. Expose like misinformation in a public domain. None of us knew that. Okay. Well, I don't know what to say. Like I did send the email. So if that wasn't communicated to this board, I don't know what to say. Okay. I, I have no recollection of whether it was or not. Well, it was, and it's on record. So stop misrepresenting me. That's all I'm saying. Like, you can say. Whatever you want, even like, I'm not mad. I'm saying just don't misrepresent me. Okay. So what we can do here is. Shelby. And I will review the meeting minutes with the. You know, the, the video. Footage from the last meeting for that. Portion of the, of the discussion that went on. And make sure that we have. You know, w detail. If there's there's something missing, we will add it in there and make note of that and we'll bring. The meeting minutes with the corrections back. At the, at, for next month. And Pete, I have another question. So why is it acceptable for Gary to say that he wants more information, but it's. It's not to incorporate that into the minute, but for me, it's not okay to say my statement and there's disordered rationale. Rationale. That's not reflective of the reality. I don't, I don't think, I don't think Pete's saying that what you have to say. Shouldn't be noted, but it's going to be noted. In this week, this month's minutes. Cuz it wasn't in last month's meeting. I think that's what I think that's, he's getting it. Okay. So all of this will be in this month's meeting. Yes. Correct. Last we. Should prepped last month. What I, what? Okay. Okay. And it's a good, it's a fair

question. It's good question. No, I get it. I think I get it now. So. What, what Mr. Work is asking us to do is go back and, and. See if there's detail missing from that discussion last month. And so we will review. The, the audio and the video. And if there's detail missing, we will add that in there, because if those are things that actually happened at that meeting, they belong in the meeting minutes. I see. But, but we're yeah, but we're not, we're not adding anything. Unless it occurred at that last meeting. Okay. The actual attendance records. Weren't available until this meeting. Correct. So, yeah, the numbers. Might have been discussed. Generally mm-hmm but not specifically. Sure. You mentioned. Yes, sir. Yeah. That's why they have to go in here because they've only been available. I understand here. That's fine. I, yeah. Thank you. So in attendance, in regard to the attendance records. Do we have excused and unexcused is there such a thing? No, we don't do excused. Excused, you you're either present or you're absent. So okay. Some boards do that. But that's not provided for in our bylaws. So we do not. So if you were to call in. And at least let. People know that, you know, you're not gonna be there. Then there could be a damn it. Substitute fill in and that wouldn't necessarily be excused. Reasons to call in. So one the alternate. We can make sure that or Pete can make sure that an alternate is available in here. Okay. And certainly notifying Pete

and enough in advance that he has time to make that arrangement. Yeah. Hmm. So we're clearly not approving the minutes. This for this month. We'll have to flip that to next month's Agenda. Thank you. Agenda next month's Agenda now. And I may want to go look at that as well now. And we can also take a. A tally of all of our attendance, like over the course of the years that I've been on this board. You know, in contrast to the rest of the board, if do that, if you like, if you would like do that also, if you would like me to read out what the attendance was for the last. Year, I'm happy to do that for that, or we don't, we can, or we don't, or you can bring everybody's like attendance over the course of the time that they've been on board. That would be, I have the, I have the. Spreadsheet of the last, I don't know, 13 months or so, I guess the 12 months. Proceeding 13 months proceeding, whatever that meeting was. I can tell you what everybody's absences were. Okay. Let's see, Allison was absent once Remi was absent. Excuse me. Hmm. I guess one of the concerns that I. That I have. Is maybe moving forward, we need to have. An protocol for absences, whether they are. Excused or unexcused in the sense. And if we're gonna go through that, are we comparing apples to apples or apples to oranges? Oranges. So for example, someone saying, Hey, Pete. Hey board. Hey everyone. I'm going to be on vacation. This time and this time, this time. I'll use myself for example.

And giving you know, four months, six months notice. Some amount of notice so that. One of our alternates can be. Secured is a big difference. Than someone I'm one not showing up or someone sending a text or an email. Without enough time to secure. An alternate. So that and, and, you know, to paint. Another board member. As engaging in unkind unprofessional and discriminatory. Practices concerns me. Are you, are you referring to me? I'm referring to anybody. Okay. Because, yeah, what I would like, that's a problem. Okay. What's what are what's specifically is your problem? If we're going to, if we're going to take attendance. Then let's make sure that we're prepare that we're making an accurate comparison. Okay. So for me. I there have been a, a few different. Experiences that I've had on this board. That make me question. Why we would want to disempower. Or create more rigidity. Towards participation. And, and or how we engage in participation. So for me. I think that a, a, a more judicious approach.

To addressing the issue of attendance. And timeliness would be to reinstate or to, to. Re-emphasize not re-instate, but re-emphasize. The necessity of maintaining a protocol. That people call or people. To the, to the point that you all are making. You know, if you're going to be absent, we'd like to know as soon as, you know, as far in advance as possible. Mm-hmm and we like to make sure that people are coming, you know, 15 minutes before, you know, just so that we are not painting out. The picture of the people that we profess. To respect on this board. And what they reflect and represent in our community. To me that feels like a more respectful approach to handling protocol. But to police. The attendance of people on a volunteer constituent board. And specifically when there is selective enforcement about what that looks like. Whether or not they came, they told you a year in advance that they were gonna be gone, or whether they said it the, the same day. The re the reality is, is that the person was not there. And there's a. Responsibility that they have to the board. And so if you're it, it's, there's a values assessment here. That feels like it's being called into question. And so when we're selectively enforcing things, and, and those things are reflective and representative of people, for instance, you and I have the same amount of absences. Absences. And so, which we're really talking about is the way that we engage on the board. And so that's what is being called into question. And that's a, that what I'm feeling like is that there's. There's people that have not, they're not here now. Right. Or whatever else.

We are making an assessment. About those people and their participation on this board. And I think that's weird. I think that's very weird. I think that to be respectful of everyone. To rein to, again, reemphasize the importance. Of the protocol of attendance and timeliness. I think that that's absolutely appropriate and it doesn't embarrass people and it doesn't call them into question. It doesn't call their commitment into question. It doesn't call their character into question, but to do what you guys are doing right now. And then to when, when it's clear that there's an issue of representation. I think that that's really it's. It's a, an underhanded approach. To there's something underhanded about it. That's real corny to me. And I, and I just, you know, I don't know what you're offended about. Shelby, what you offended about doesn't Shelby be choke to. The board members every month to find out if I'm not a faculty attending or not. About what Mr. Chairman yes, sir. I, I, I think an issue has been identified here, the board, he has the, the ability certainly, and, and has developed policies. And procedures by loss. I can't hear you. This is something that can be addressed through. Okay. I'm not close enough to the microphone. So I'll start over. An issue has been identified. And certainly that has to deal with policies and procedures of the board. Regarding attendance, the board has the ability to. Adopt policies and procedures. That's through the. Certainly the board can review and address

if it chooses to do so, an amendment to the bylaws. I think that requires. Requires maybe a little more thorough discussion, just how that wants, how you want to do that. And is perhaps a separate issue from what we're dealing with here with the minutes. And something that we can address in the future. To address the concerns that have been ex. The attorney bear. I, I just wanna get clear. So I'm, this board wants to raise up a shift in the bylaws to make them more rigid. So that people that are not attending. Have to account for their participation. In a way that does what that excludes them from participation or puts them under the scrutiny and the speculation of, well, if you're not here, you can't part. Participate. True. That's true. Typically with this kind of provision and, and distinction is made between. Excused absences and unexcused AB unexcused absent is. Absence is where you're on vacation. You have a family matter. You need to attend to. You contact Pete. The board then can make a determination. Yep. They had absence is excused. Unexcused absences. You, you simply aren't showing. Up and you aren't participating. So. Sure. It only has a reflection on. Participation to the extent that you aren't showing up and, and not participating. Sure. Some boards even. Allow only allow a certain number of unexcused absences. I've been on a board that didn't care. It was absences straight up. If you had three you're off. Yeah. I mean, they, I'm not saying you need to go that way. I'd rather not, but I'm saying that's something you can consider is that. More fair. And

does that make the distinction between the apples and oranges that I just need us to. Is referring to freshen. You know, but there's something the board can discuss if it chooses to do so. I don't wish to discuss it. I just wish we were all here every time. And I know that's not entirely possible. Like I said, I wish we would've nevertheless, resist the embodied practice of oppression. I think we need to resist it. Don't I don't resist it. Resist. I I'm. I'm not gonna call asking everybody to be here every possible time they can to be oppression. No, that's not. That's obviously not what I'm saying, but I think that. To, to police people. And to participation or you're out. That's really, we're a volunteer board. It's not a volunteer when you feel like it it's you volunteered, you took. On this responsibility now show up and do it. I don't wanna be that guy. And I feel like I'm being shoved into that box of being that guy, but, well, let's read the attendance then, but ultimately, you know, we're. We are here as volunteers. If you can't do it as a volunteer, just don't do it. It's not a volunteer. As I say, it's not volunteer when you can. It's or when you want it's you signed up for it and you volunteer. And if you can't. Can't then maybe you gotta leave the board. I don't know. The Tony's ears should be burning right now. He's expected tonight and he's not sitting here and he's got. Frankly the most of the, the absences of anybody. I mean, I don't wanna throw Tony under the bus either. Right? Like, let's just, I don't want to either. I, I, but that's, I've his opinion when he's here. I mean, so let's just, but I want. Him to be here. Let's just keep our name, his name on our mouth. You know what I mean? Like let's just, if those things let's handle it with some civility and some di give people their dignity. Give people, their dignity, like who are we? Their dad, like, what are we doing? Are we like, stop, stop. Let's stop. Let's stop policing people. I was on a board prior. To this, it was in the early two thousands and it was with

the city of Kalamazoo and. I, I wasn't able to term out because. My work took me to east Lansing regularly. And I had to miss. What I thought was a fair amount of meetings and I resigned. And I mean, someone else stepped up and took my place. It was very easy. And the board doesn't have. To do anything on this is it stands right now. The commission has the authority to appoint board members and the commission has the authority to remove board members. So it can simply be. Left up to the com. Sorry. If there is an issue that comes to their attention. I don't know that there is an issue here that to come to the commission's attention. But that's if if there would become an issue with lack of attendance. And I think that would be pretty significant. Somebody's just hardly ever here. And maybe that's something that goes to the commission. Did attorney bear, would you mind reading what the defi the, the definition of excused is? And. The bylaws, like, what does that mean? Like, since they're not in our bylaws excused, we don't have that. So it's not our bylaw. It's not in bylaw. It's not in the bylaws. It's not in let me, but. Maybe something that should be since it's become an issue. I'm just saying it could be if you wanted it to be, but it doesn't have to be. Okay. I have just a couple things to say. I think, I think we are adults and we probably don't need to get into. What's an excused absence, and what's not, it's probably going to the Def defining that is really difficult. I've spent a lot of my. Career talking about absences for people in professional environments. I think planned absences and unplanned absences are different. I think all

of us have things that come up last minute. I mean, I was just talking about things that, that happened to me recently. That's. That's gonna probably make me unavailable for our training on Monday. But to me, I think that we might have a bigger conversation that we need to have as a group. And I don't know if that needs to be in a formal setting or offline, but I think we're having a lot of. Words coming about respect. And some accusations being presented and things that I think are very concerning for all of us. And I don't like that personally. And I think that all of us are here because we care a lot about inclusivity and our community at large. I can't only speak for myself, but I experienced that from everyone. But I do notice that there are. Messages and words that are quite disrespectful. To board members. And even to people who are here in the community and I've witnessed it and it makes me very uncomfortable. So I just, I just wanna say, I think we need to talk about that at some point. In addition to may, maybe really the issue isn't really about attendance. Pete do, could, would you be opposed to having that conversation in the public domain? I don't know if it's appropriate to have it in the public or not. I, I don't know, but I'm certainly comfortable sharing my thoughts here. And I've certainly felt disrespected by you Remy in the FA in the past. Okay. And I have been disrespected by you also. Over the course of several meetings. Meetings. And so I agree. I agree, and I am also open to having that conversation in the public domain. So Alison, I have found you to be

extraordinarily disrespectful. Passive aggressive and violent in your communication. Violent. Violent. Alright, violent. I'm not comfortable continuing this conversation in public. I'm not even necessarily. Comfortable staying in the room at this point. Okay. With the accusations that have just been made towards me. Yeah. I'm there's violent and non-violent communication. Yeah. Thank you. Obviously the minutes are tabled till next month. All right. Old. Well, normally we would have public meetings. Here's going to be the problem. And I suppose. Pete I'm, you know, throw it over to you for you to get us up to speed. And if need be Charlie can weigh in and give us direction on what we can and cannot do tonight. And why. I already know all the answers to these questions. So I'm being like Bob Vela, director of traffic up here, but Pete, why don't you explain? Okay. Okay. Yeah. So. The, yeah. The reason I asked for the opportunity to start off is because this is. You know, different than the usual. Public hearing scenario because we began the public hearing for these five cases. On west cork street, that is one 12 west cork street through 1 32 west cork street. Those were presented at our February 12th meeting. The applicant spoke about the development project. We then opened a public hearing. And took Public Comment. Closed the public hearing began a discussion. Phase. And that's where, where. Things concluded and the board. Adjourned all five of the cases. To this meeting, this May 14th meeting. To provide

the applicant time to. Revisit the natural features protection review board. And so that is, you know, just to kind of catch up to where we're at, where we're picking up. And then as I noted in the, the staff report, the applicant did not go to the N F P board in either. March or April. So there is not any additional. Information to share. In the, in the, in the Ordinance process, it does outline that, you know, the N F P review board. Shall review the request. Now the applicant. Took that original request to the NFP board. But the applicant has now got a. A different development proposal that he's going to, or shall I say a revised development proposal? He's gonna go over tonight. So I just wanted to touch base on that. Is there anything else here to add? Well, the other comment I wanted to make was related to what was noticed publicly for tonight's meeting. The, you know, the additional information, which you all have hard copies of in front of you. I, I blew up the drawing, so it's, it's an 11. By 17 to make it a little easier to see. But it is a revised layout with a, a single. Drive that will serve all five of the duplexes. And instead of the original layout that's in the packet that shows a single. Drive for each du duplex. So, you know, there is some. Some discrepancy with the, what we publicly noticed for and what the nude development layout shows. So I'll leave that to the applicant to speak on more.

But again, the copies. You know of that information is in front of each board member. And we've also got, we've got it queued up on the computer for the applicant to talk about. So I'm sure there'll be other questions. Questions. So I will be available. When that time comes. So the applicant wants to change the proposal. But that wasn't noticed for tonight, which means we can't hear it. I mean, we, you can talk on it all you want. I don't see the point. We can't hear it cuz the public hasn't been properly noticed of it. That's correct. So there's no point in hearing anything on that proposal. And if we're gonna hear the other five, they may not like the. The, the outcome of the votes since we tabled it for the express purpose of going to the NFP and seems instead of going to the NFP. NFP, they got an alternate idea, which still has to go. To the NFP. P the N F P Ordinance. Requires any variance. From the N F P overlay. Overlayed must be reviewed. By the N F P board. And this board then consider. Vance after that review. Needs a copy of the recommendation. From the NFP board. So since we have neither of those, that's another reason why this board can't proceed. So you have, we don't have. Proper notice, and we don't have the. Required NFP review. And recommendation. So sounds like that's getting tabled until the NFPS had their say on either the other, the old five. Or the new one. And we'll see you later.

That's what I'm hearing. Yeah. And I don't want to waste anybody's time. Hearing about it. If it's just gonna go to the NFP and they're gonna say, no, you need to do this or that or whatever. They might approve it. And then it comes back here and we're like, great. I guess we don't like it. Or whatever, but they approved it. So we're do we need to make a motion in regard to that or. Action does need to be taken of some sort. On the application at hand. So, yeah, so this, this could be. You know, moved to the. I mean, basically looking at the dates. Dates if we vote on tape. Sorry. Sorry to interrupt. Sorry, Shelby for interrupting. Do we, did we have to vote to table it before? Or did we, did I just make that de decision? I don't recall. Did we vote? Thank you. Yeah. But that would require a motion. Okay. So that would be to set it over to a time. Certain essentially we're dealing with a new matter. So, I mean, there is going to the next meeting. There is going to have to be a public hearing. So what's a good date then. Pete, I think that's what you were looking for. Yeah. So, so what we could do date wise. Would be to move it to the. The July meeting. And where's that date's not in front of me right now. Anyways, it would, it would move to the July meeting that would provide time. For the June. Natural features protection review board. So the board could you know, make a motion. To move these requests. Yeah. I'll make it. To the July meeting.

Yes. I'll make a motion for that. I make a motion for ZBA 26 0 2. Dash three through ZBA 26 0 2. Seven. That we table this for the. July ZBA meeting. I suck. I second that thank you. Do we need to discuss on that? Do we need to take a roll call vote or can we just voice vote it? We can voice vote it. Why not? I'm gonna divert defer to legal counsel. What. How I have a who on a voice vote or a roll call? But we can do a, a voice. Thank you. All those in. Favor of tabling. The request until July, please signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposition? Hearing none. That is tabled until July. I think that runs to the end of our. Agenda items, but Pete's raising his finger. One, one point of order. Who, who seconded the motion, Beth feted. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. You're. Welcome. So it sounds like we can be adjourned. Cuz we are out of items. Thank you very much, everybody for coming. Thank you. Shabi did you want these back?