Legislative Committee - Regular Meeting

Not that I needed to do that, but I feel like it. Anyway, apologize for the few minutes we were late. I was discussing with some important people before we get started here. This is the meeting of the legislative committee on April 2026 in the Council chambers. And would you please call the roll?

Councilman Cardius? Here. Councilwoman Reardon? Here. Councilwoman Kuhlman?

Here. Thank you. So I wanted to start this out with our city attorney explaining our current ordinance compared to what we're looking at and what exactly manager duties are and what city manager form of government means.

Before we get there, there's approval of minutes on the agenda. So we wanna do that first.

Yeah. Alright. We actually were here for that one.

Yeah. We I like I was looking. I don't remember. I remember the meeting. Yep. That was our first first meeting.

It was in August.

So we're gonna go over it again because we have to. So the agenda items is the what was the date of that now? I don't have

08/2525.

08/2525. Okay. So we'll need approval of minutes from 08/05/2025. So moved. Second. All in favor?

Aye. Aye. Okay.

Now we'll move on.

Citizens to be heard.

There's nobody here. Alright. Take note. Nobody here. Not even a reporter. Not good. And that's for the record.

So then we have the agenda items, ordinance amending chapter two article two of city manager authority for succession hiring and temporary appointments. So Is your mic on? Is it Yeah. I got the little yellow lights on. So you can Okay.

Yeah. We're good. Talk about it. Alright.

Of the Joliet city code, section two dash two nine gives the powers and duties of the city manager. Subsection c indicates the city manager has the authority and duty to exercise control of all departments. And then if you go on to section two dash three zero, it's appointment removal of officers generally. And that starts off with the city manager shall be authorized to hire and discharge all employees to positions approved by the city council. That is essentially why we're here is we're trying to do secession hiring.

The city manager has the authority to hire and discharge all employees, but only what is appropriated by the city council. What this ordinance does is it allows a temporary ability to go over that headcount, so to speak. The HR director is here. If you wanna elaborate on that.

Good morning, director of human resources, Elizabeth Coronado Abrego. So the current, ordinance, again, as it stands, the city manager, human resources does not have the ability to double double over in a position. So the goal here is to improve continuing continuity of operations and reduce services disruption during periods of employee separation. The as it stands right now, it creates operational gaps, reduces knowledge transfer opportunities, and impacts service quality especially in key positions. Our goal is to maintain the highest level of services for our residents.

The, ordinance change would allow for an overlap of positions when individuals either retire, separate, and, the recommendation, was six months. I do understand that it that might seem excessive so we would be proposing three months ninety days. The head count would not go over so the funding would be appropriated through savings of either individuals coming in at a lower rate and or from savings throughout the department. So it wouldn't be going over the allocated costs. Any questions?

What would be the allocated cost?

The allocated cost would be the so each position has a salary line item and so typically when someone retires, they retire at the top end of their scale. When someone new starts, they're at the bottom of the scale. So there's a cost savings on the budgeted amounts of salary. So say it's a 100,000 that's budgeted for the year. And then for example, somebody would come in at 70,000, that's step one.

We need to explain everything because there's so much out there right now and it's they're playing the telephone game and adding on and adding on and adding on, and it's I've been batting the ball all weekend. Phone calls. Phone calls. Phone calls. Yep. All all incorrect information. All incorrect information.

So that's why I'm being very

clear, very specific for us. Questions? So you're saying three months. We were looking at maybe thirty days or half of that, maybe sixty days, maybe two months. And but that wouldn't apply to every position because the director's positions, you really need to know everything. And then the lesser people that are retiring, you know, probably a couple of weeks. So how can we make that well, anyway, I want input from you guys too,

but these are my thoughts. I'm sure you will.

I'll give you a minute. Just let me finish. Okay? Yeah. You know, is it three months too long to have somebody come in to put into the say, for the janitor position? You know? It we need to be flexible here in exactly what jobs this occurs to. Of course, the directors, they really need to know the job, and you just can't walk in and know everybody and how we work as a municipality because every municipality is different even though they're requalified. So what we need to do is look at this and see what applies to every tier that we have. So okay. Sherry, you're up. Well, I

agree with that, and I don't I think the flexibility is there. I think the maximum of ninety days would apply to the entire process. We're talking about from the day you post the job till the day you get some applications till you review the applications till you choose some candidates to interview. And by the time you've done that process, there's a lot of time that has gone past. I mean for me, an entry level position at my company, it can take me six months to get that process done.

It's it's not a quick process and it's not a hiring market anymore these days. So I don't think ninety days is excessive because it's the entire process. It's not saying, oh, I hired you and now I'm gonna start training you for ninety days. I'm going to post the job. I'm going to get the applications. I'm gonna review. I'm gonna take you know, bring some interviews in.

Are those for higher up of just, like, for the directors, supervisors? Are you talking about somebody that wants to come in and be with the janitor? Janitor's been gone now, and they're retiring. And do we need ninety days to train them?

I agree with you. But I also feel that that's the flexibility within the department. The department doesn't want to spend any of their allocated budget on anything more than they would have to, I would assume. They want to keep their budget intact. And the budget is there. They can't, you know, exceed that budget. So if they have somebody that's only gonna require, you know, the couple weeks to train with the couple weeks notice that they receive Mhmm. Well, then they can they can make that decision based on that. Agree. But for the higher ups where we have this skilled talent that why would we ever wanna give that out the door before we utilized every bit of it Right. For the next person coming in.

But that's we have to put that in in the ordinance, what it applies to each one. Because, you know, it'll be out there. Oh, I'm gonna be a janitor, but I get to do six months and da da da da da, and I won't have to do anything because I'm working with somebody. And it it's out there. I mean, it's just nonsense. And that's why I would like this to be very, very specific with the job, with the categories, with the departments That's the different. Because every department is different. And we want what's best for the city

of Florida.

Some of the things to think about, you know, when employees are retiring, they do use benefit time that's available. Mhmm. You know, this is time they would normally get paid out to to get their affairs in order. The other thing is you're talking about positions, you know, it's not just department heads. You know, We run into I'll use in neighborhood inspections as an example.

Exactly. Going into the summer season, they maybe have notifications of retirements and, you know, could be short inspectors coming into a high inspection time where this would allow for, you know, getting that ad out, starting the process, getting someone to actually get trained on Joliet's building code and and so on and so forth. So I will say it does go beyond the department head into some of those frontline positions that, you know, snow season for maintenance workers and operators, you know, making sure that they're staffed up going into those seasons. So it is for more than just, I think, department heads.

Well, absolutely. Absolutely. But that's why I wanted everybody to be here today so we can discuss this. There's so many tears, and you wouldn't believe the phone calls I've had over the weekend. It's like, oh my goodness. No. What do you think there, Cesar?

Yeah. I personally I give like Sherry mentioned too. I don't think I don't think ninety days is enough personally, but it goes it goes, and I understand your concern and what you're saying as far as At what positions and I think which is a concern, but at the same time, I think that's why we have to, you know, trust in our city manager, our staff that they're not gonna abuse like a lot of things they could abuse, but they don't, right? So we have to assume that because you have six months, let's just say it was that, that they're not going to use it unless they really needed it, right? Because I'm assuming that the city manager has a lot of power to abuse a lot of things, but we trust that they're not, right?

All of our staff, our finance, you know, I'm sure you can abuse a lot of things the way the ordinances are written, but you're not, right? I mean, it's just, it's facts, right? Anyone can abuse a lot of things based off these ordinances if you really wanted to find loopholes and whatnot, but we have to trust our staff that they're not. And I think this situation right now, when we're talking about the hiring process and the fact that we don't have a succession plan right now for a lot of these positions that we haven't for a lot of years, but we found the root to the problem is the fact that you can't even post a job or suggest that you want to hire someone knowing that they're going to be gone in June, you know, and and again having the ability to do it whether you have six months ninety days, I think it would be very, you know, difficult for us as counsel to sit there and put, okay, this position that like we would see and I think we would all notice if someone was hired for a position that didn't require a whole lot of training to be hired six months out while that other position was still there, right?

Again, that's abusing your position in the way that you know, shouldn't be doing it. And I just think that right now we see a true problem of the fact that we cannot recover someone else's position or their information and knowledge that they have to get to certain positions because we in our ordinance don't allow it right But if we do this move, now that's going be a big savings for the city of Joliet because now we're going be able to retain that information on those positions that are key and then and again, just have that trust and knowing that our staff and our team is doing what's best for the city in those positions so I would think ninety days in like Sherry mentioned we do ninety days and you put opposition today for you know for the deputy city manager it's going to take sixty to ninety days to find someone because you might find someone interviewing twice and then realize, you know what, it didn't work out, now you got find somebody else. So, if you're not, if you're doing it in, you know, yeah, I I don't know that's where I feel like you know giving that that position or that time frame to hire someone from all levels, I don't know if it's ours position to then put you know, because I mean I can't even imagine how many different employment positions do we have when you're talking from different

Yeah, probably over 30 which I'm guessing.

Of all individuals type Different of jobs

types of jobs, it's probably 30 to 50?

They have different types of roles and I would assume more but yeah. But yeah.

Yeah. Probably probably going a little light now that I yeah.

So So with all that spent, our

That's it.

Attorney wants to talk.

I do. We specifically put in there that nothing in this subsection be construed to require the city manager to fill a position. So there are gonna be I don't wanna diminish certain jobs, but there's gonna be some jobs where we don't need

this. Okay.

You know, I don't wanna call out one specific position, but not this won't happen all the time. The phrase that was brought about was institutional knowledge. I think what we're trying to do here is not lose institutional knowledge. I like that. Have projects that if we lose someone and we don't trade them, that that knowledge is gone. We may miss deadlines. We may miss a grant. Know, and that's what this is aimed to do is keep that institutional knowledge in house so that the last person can kind of, you know, pay it forward so to speak.

I, you know, and I agree with what you said about the trust. We have to have a certain level of trust that they're not gonna abuse this. You know, if it's a, the situation where you just described with this, you know, massive amount of institutional knowledge, we want them to have three months of solid training to get, transfer all of that into the next person coming in because it benefits the city to have that. We don't want them coming in and having to start from scratch. I don't care how much knowledge you have in your field.

This is a different job. It's a different set of rules and standards and ordinances and and, you know, how how we Yeah. Do So I I still think, like, think you do. I don't know how you feel about it. I think the six months is still an important thing and that this should be a judgment call and a trust call with our employees. I

agree. Well, I think six months is too long. And if we go the ninety days, then maybe we can look at, you know, can we extend this a little further because there's more complications here. Something has come up, and then we could extend it.

Leave that in The only thing about that is then it's too late. Why don't we try the sixty days or the six months and then

shorten it?

Six months aren't gonna fly. Everybody is up in arms about this, and we need to try something so we can always extend it later. We can always come back and change it. But I know I can see where this is going. So you guys decide what you want because you always do anyway.

So what's it gonna read? It's our second meeting for the legislative committee.

So I guess we could have a motion to approve with the one eighty. We have a motion to approve with ninety. We have a motion to approve with 01:20.

Yeah. But we just need four months. How about four months? We'll start with four.

I think it should be up to the department heads. Not only the department heads, but whoever's getting trained. They're the people that are gonna work side by side with this new person and know how quickly they're going to adjust and how quickly they pick things up. So it doesn't have to be the full six months or the full three months. It could be two weeks. Somebody could pick up on it right away. But we need to hold accountable the person that's training that person so that we can get an accurate thing of what's happening.

Well, that's exactly what I'm saying, Jan.

Well, didn't come up that way.

Well, I'm sorry. I'm saying that if they post a job, even if you find that you have, you know, it looks like you're going to have a qualified candidate, you can bring the training into a later time of that time frame. Know, you can say, you know, we we'd like to have you. We'd like we need you to start on this date even if it is a month or a month and a half down the road from when they actually posted the job interview, did the job, chose a person. It just, just because they say, okay, we want you for this position doesn't mean you start tomorrow.

And I'm sure they, in those types of position, they also have to be giving notice to I their former think that's still a time frame that just because they're six months and they get somebody hired in two doesn't mean they couldn't bring them in in three and then have three months training.

Mhmm. Because to my to my understanding is the six months essentially is when you can officially post that you're hiring for this position. Correct?

So no. No. It it we can post whenever we need to. We could post a year in advance saying that we're gonna fill fill it a year out. This would only allow for the hiring of so the date of hire.

The day of hire.

So and it would be a six month maximum. Again that is by no means what would be the regular per per human resources policies. That would be to the extreme, you know, maybe a city manager retiring, know, the higher level positions that have all of that knowledge for twenty, thirty years. So that would be at the maximum. Just on average, it takes roughly sixty days to even post for you know a good three weeks.

Then after posting the interviewing process takes at least three to four weeks. After that then individuals need to provide notice to their employers which usually is another potentially three weeks and then a background check which is another two weeks. So the whole process in and of itself typically takes over two months.

Yeah. So that so that's why I think like there's no scenario where we give somebody six months and then someone starts at the first day of the six months trial, like now they're here for six months, it just doesn't happen, right? The six months is because we need that buffer time of doing all that processes and everything else. So initially, you want the six months so you could potentially have a good two months of training with someone when you finally hire them. Right?

Correct. That would be the goal.

So in other words, this ordinance has to say, go to six months. Mhmm. But it'd be very specific by why we have to do this for your explanation that you just gave as far as getting somebody, somebody's coming from somebody else. They have to give notice. But their salary wouldn't start on that six month. It's just give us a six month to start looking for people. Correct. Is that correct?

Yes. But this again, just to clarify, the city manager does have the authority to post positions. This doesn't this doesn't preclude us from the recruiting process. This would only this is only for the hiring.

And that's correct. And that's what I'm saying. Yep. This is a fine line here because it's just that telephone game that's out there again. They just keep adding on and adding on. It doesn't mean anything. It's just stupid. But people need to understand exactly how city manager, former government works because I'm getting well, who are they gonna hire to be the next council person? I'm like, oh

my god. Me.

Okay? But this is the kind of things I've been getting over the weekend. And, oh, six months, this is too much power. She has too much power. I said, you don't understand city manager form of governments and try to be calm through all this has been a really I have a sharp fuse, as you all know.

May I ask another question?

Can I just finish the Oh, sure?

I'm sorry.

Tell you what. Yeah. Yeah. So now I see what you're saying with the six months. Okay? So are we gonna re do we need another ordinance to say that employee directors need to give us six months that they're gonna leave or something like that? Or can that just happen without anything?

Are you are you speaking of the notice Yeah. Of from an employee retiring? Right. So for each contract is different. Right. So there are some contracts that say that there's an appropriate amount of notice given. The at will employees, there is no there's by law we can't require it. We can incentivize employees to retire by allow you know, allowing them to be out some of their time. And that's some one change that we're looking to make in the future going forward, but that wouldn't be currently. Currently, it would be only those contracts that identify that a notice is required.

And that would complicate things, and we tried to explain all that. So while you're speaking, I was thinking, okay. The six month thing doesn't mean they're being hired at six month. It's meaning that we're offering the job, but they're not getting paid from that day. Correct? Correct. And that's exactly how we gotta get that message to our residents because they're all over the place talking about different things. So once you explained all that, you know, when you're directors, you do need to give your current employer notice so they can hire someone to replace them.

Correct. And typically for your higher level positions like directors Mhmm. That's a requirement of a thirty day notice in most employers.

But that doesn't mean they're gonna get paid when she puts that thing out. Correct. The notice out.

Correct. And human resources puts notices out, not the the city man or city manager. So it all goes through human resources. Yes. The city manager has ultimate authority.

Right. But they should be under your direction. Correct. Okay. We got that. Alright. Sorry. Go ahead.

No. Okay. I'm gonna ask you another question. Maybe maybe I got the telephone thing going on. So we I thought in our meeting that we said we couldn't post.

That has since been clarified that So we that's why. Yeah. All right.

So we can post. We can go through what part of the process before we have an employee leave?

Currently, as it stands, we can go through the entire process. We cannot hire them. There can be no day overlap. So Okay. In the instance of you know, finance director departs, that next person cannot start until after he leaves.

I hear he's been up to shady stuff. We

could be. Watch our wiser. Watch our words. That's what we asked

you. Allegedly.

Speaker Allegedly. Yeah.

Speaker in your opinion, if, you know, the the most full of knowledge person that we have in the city, how much overlap would it take for them to transfer their knowledge to the next employee? It it all depends. It's all variable. You also have to take into consideration we are we're very generous in a lot

of our contracts. So they have a lot of time to use prior to leaving and they potentially could do that. I mean, we've had we've seen employees use up to ninety days of personal leave, which means there's no one here at all, and then we still can't backfill it until the day after they leave. So, you know, there there's there it it's all on a case by case basis. But any, you know, any person, if you would have you know, the more time, the better to get to get all that knowledge passed on.

Well Okay. Then I I stand by the six months because I don't think anybody's gonna, you know, want to use any part of their budget that they don't need to use, absolutely use unless they need to use it to train these people.

Correct. And Kevin wouldn't allow us. Yeah. It wouldn't matter.

Could we?

Well, he's a good guy.

I'll be watching.

Because keep in mind, I mean, nobody wants to come to counsel for a budget amendment on something else especially as a result of this. I mean, the staff does a very good job of living within that budget that the council has set. And so, I mean, just to be honest and us working with them throughout the year, I mean, they're very conscious of that. And so I would say you are absolutely right that they're not gonna want to use their budget willy nilly to say, well, I'm not gonna do this. I'm gonna overlap a position. It it truly is something that, you know, they're gonna evaluate and make sure it makes sense for the organization.

And that's what we need to explain.

Okay.

That's the biggest thing out there right now. It's it's crazy what's out there.

And in in one of the things you said earlier about, you know, hiring a new position and it'll be potentially, most likely at a lower level as far as their salary. So we'll just do round numbers. Okay. So say the retiring one, which, of course, it's not gonna be a 120,000, but it's gonna be a lot more than that. But say they retired at in June. So there now we're saying this $60,000 left for their position in the city is still going to be there because that's Mhmm. Left over from the salary we won't be paying them.

Minus the payout that we had to send for their unused vacation in So it's there's a mean, there's a lot that goes in. It's not just a simple

I know. But that's what we're saying

as far as, you know,

play money to work towards this new position.

Yes. Savings. Okay. Alright. Good.

So in

Go ahead. What's the mallet?

I was waving over here. I was over here this. Like

Oh, sorry.

No. So would it be Okay. Did you mention that when the order is, like you said, just for, you know making people feel at ease as far as potential abuse or whatnot of the position to put on there that the purpose of this ordinance or whatnot the changes for institutional knowledge like kind of wording to say that you know if it's going to be it's going be used or it's going be done it's because you're doing it for that purpose so that not just any position you know realistically you said you feel that you could have a little bit of security there with that would that be something that Todd that we're going to be doing

or I don't know if I'm fully following on what you want.

So, the wording like when this is going to be used is for the purpose of retaining institutional knowledge, right? So, of the hiring process of, it's just wordy, It doesn't necessarily it just kind of helps guide the reason why you're putting something out there three, four, five months in advance or hiring somebody.

Purpose statement in it?

Yeah. Okay. Like a purpose statement, I guess. Yeah. For institutional, you know, that's what the

And if I may, the city manager would be working with the director of that department Right. Because ultimately, they're the ones that would recommend to her, you know, this is who we'd like to have. Mhmm. So what's out there is, like, oh, we're giving her too much power. It's like, no. No. No. No. You're No. Not understanding. You're not understanding. This is we're just changing the ordinance here so we can hire employees to get the best people here for the city of Joliet. And I know it's complicated, but we need to put it in simple wording so people will understand because they go nuts.

If I may just one of the things with if you restrict it to institutional, you do lose some of that service based advanced hiring. Like, the example I gave maybe inspectors, snow plow operators. So just keep that in mind

as would think they still have institutional knowledge of how plow works and how no?

Yeah. You're stretching. I think you would stretch and as you mentioned some of the gamesmanship, we try not to do that and so we try to be clear. And so I I would defer to Todd on something like that. But that would be the only thing if you just restricted it to institutional that you could lose some of that service based hiring to, you know, and those are the positions that are providing that direct service to the taxpayer. So just keep that in mind is the only thing I would add.

So one thing I will add, our ordinance is that it does indicate the city manager shall report the hiring or discharge of an employee to city council as soon as practical. So it's not like the city council won't find out about this. These reports should get to you. That's one way to do it. And as Kevin said, the more specific you make make it, the more it limits you too. There might be a situation where they need someone. It's not really for institutional knowledge, but it's for some other reason I can't think of. So I would hate to make it that specific. And at certain point, the city manager is tasked with running the departments. So she has to be trusted to do that.

Yeah.

So ultimately, the city manager would be approving the person that that director of that department would recommend. And that's fifty fifty, and she has to trust her

Directors.

Employees and vice versa. And Correct. So she's not doing all the hiring and the firing and this and that and whatever, and that's what we need to quell. Mhmm. Put it in simple layman terms, what's happening. And they still may not get it, but I think that's the best way to go.

I like it.

What do you think?

Yeah. I like the idea. Yeah.

Okay. So one more time. What what exactly is the ordinance as written okay with the modification of the dates, or is the six the one eighty good?

I think that's where we decided

to good?

Yeah. Mhmm.

Because of all the parameters they have to go along with that with somebody else that's working at another company or another city or something like that.

Okay. Did I get

The whole it's all to protect the city as well so we make sure we get the right people. They know what they're doing, and the only way to learn is be trained by the person that was there before.

Correct. Because I know

we had a city manager at one time, couldn't even use the computer.

I think being able to what Jan is asking as well, if I'm not mistaken, is being able to put in there to say the reason why we're going six months is because it could be a three to four month hiring process before we even hire someone. So, that way people understand why we did six months. It's not that we're doing six months to get someone to start on the first day of the six month process, We're getting paid. Yeah, we're not getting paid. No. We're doing six months because it's going to take three to four months to find the right candidate. Then that'll hopefully give us two to three months of someone here. That's why that's why we we

do that. Like, belongs to the legislative text rather than the ordinance.

Right. That's what I'm saying. That's what I mean on the And that's the text part. On the legislative text so that maybe we understand what we're doing.

The text is just to explain it.

Yeah. Not the ordinance.

Modified. Okay.

So the way the way the current language is written, it would allow for a six month overlap. So I just wanted to just to clarify that as written, it would allow for that six month two people in the

description same. He was saying.

Okay.

Why and and Jan was saying why we're doing this so that they have that. But, no, we get the six months in there.

When you look at the whole

picture So you just want additional language to clarify why we chose six months?

Yeah. Okay. Our explanation. Yep.

Because it could take long to hire someone.

Not the work itself. Yeah. We can

we can

do fine.

So

guess we give a picture of the whole picture where it is, where the city manager is, and that whole six month thing. And, you know, they're not getting paid from day one. It's at the six months. And I know it's complicated, not in the ordinance, but just as a what do you wanna call? Press release or whatever or explain it at a council meeting if they wanna know, but the newspapers won't get it right either. So, I mean, it's very specific, and it's very difficult. But it's something that needs to be done, and it's something that makes sense.

Okay. Okay. So can we get a motion

Now you're down the rabbit hole with us.

Yes. I went down

the rabbit hole.

I went down the rabbit hole. I sure did. Give me my carrot.

So I think we need a motion to advance the city the full city council with the recommendation to approve, and then we will work on the memo so it explains it better.

Like A motion to approve.

Okay. I'll second.

Alright. All in favor.

Aye. Aye.

Aye. Alright.

Anything else?

Public comment? It doesn't look like anyone's here. No public comment.

No. No one's here from the public. Okay? This was posted when last week. So I just wanted to put that on the record. No one here. No citizens were here. No reporters were here.

All wanting to adjourn? Sure.

So I could second.

All in favor.

Aye.

Aye.

Unanimous.