City Council - Regular Meeting

Check, check. Good evening. Good evening. Good evening. Good evening, everybody. It is Tuesday, September 8th, 2026, 630. At this time, I'm calling our city council meeting to order. We will start with the Pledge of Allegiance and then invocation will be given by myself. please feel free to reference in whatever way you feel comfortable. Lord, I'll come to you in prayer right now. I just want to start by saying thank you. Thank you for the grace and the mercy that you have shown all of us undeservingly. And we come to you today, Lord, just to ask for your guidance, ask for us to clear our minds of any personal agendas, personal vendettas, and make sure that we are putting the interest of the citizens of Jackson first as we stand here today to make decisions on behalf of the citizens of the city of Jackson. We just thank you for everything, God. We thank you for everything. And in Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Madam Clerk, if you will proceed with a roll call, please.

Mayor Mahoney.

Present.

Council Member Robinson.

Present.

Vice Mayor Dancy.

Yes, sir.

Council Member Gunn.

Present.

Council Member Wood.

Present.

Council Member Hunt. Present. Council Member Forgrave.

Here.

Thank you, Madam Clerk. Next I would be looking for a motion in support to adopt the agenda so moved support It's been moved and supported any questions comments concerns Seeing or hearing none the clerk will tally and display the votes The clerk will do a roll call vote I

Councilmember Robinson? Yes. Vice Mayor Dancy? Yes. Councilmember Gunn? Yes. Councilmember Wood? Yes. Councilmember Hunts? Yes. Councilmember Forgrave? Yes. Mayor Mahoney?

Yes. Okay. Sounds like agenda passes. And that brings us to item number five, presentations and proclamations. And we have one proclamation and presentation for Hispanic Heritage Month.

Maybe Analita could introduce the presenters. Yes, please.

Yes, thank you so much. So as many of you may or may not know, September 15 through October 15 is Hispanic Heritage Month. It's recognized nationally. And so today we're going to recognize through proclamation that month in celebrating the contributions of our Spanish speaking Hispano Latino population here in the city of Jackson. And we have a brief presentation by three people who I know and have grown up with. We have Tom Ori, Stella Valdez, and Juan Rodriguez. And they are going to do a brief presentation on the history of Hispanos in Jackson.

Good evening, Mr. Mayor and fellow council members. My name is Tom Ori, and I am here this evening with my wife, Stella Valdez. and mi amigo Juan Rodriguez to share with you the 100 years of Jackson's Hispanic heritage. And we will attempt to do this in 10 minutes. While not Hispanic myself, I am the grandson of Italian and Hungarian immigrants. Stella and I lived in an immigrant neighborhood in Los Angeles for 23 years, and after returning to Jackson I myself taught English to and resettled refugees from all over the world in Lansing at St. Vincent Catholic Charities. This upcoming Saturday, September 12th, Jackson will recognize and celebrate its Hispanic residents, excuse me, past and present at the Hispanic Heritage Festival, which will be held in Horace Blackman Park downtown. Okay. Yeah. Okay, great. Jackson County's Hispanic population, primarily of Mexican descent, has been part of our community for over a century. Those from Mexico began making the long journey to Michigan in the early 1920s. But why does one choose to leave one's home country? The reason immigrants from all over the world, particularly leave their home countries, economic hardship, conflict and violence, political instability and depression, environmental factors, lack of essential services, and family reunification. And for many of the reasons, oh. Photo one. Thank you. There we go. And for many of the reasons just mentioned, the arrivals to Michigan from Mexico began with the Mexican Revolution. And by the way, what you'll be seeing are newspaper images and articles from the last 100 years of Jackson's citizen. That one's the Citizen Press and the Citizen Patriot. This is a 1916 front page. The arrivals to Michigan from Mexico began with the Mexican Revolution, a 10-year bloody conflict from 1910 to 1920 that pitted the Mexican government, rich landowners, and farm workers against each other. The Mexican Revolution triggered the first mass migration of Mexicans throughout the United States. Over one million came north during and after that traumatic conflict. U.S. industries, facing severe labor shortages at the time, compounded by our men fighting overseas in World War I, eagerly welcomed Mexican workers, primarily as farm and railroad workers. Picture next picture. This man here is a was a Jackson resident and pretty much the first Mexican family that had arrived in Jackson in 1923. And that's why I refer to it as a century of Hispanics in Jackson, because his family is the first one that arrived. And in the text, which is hard to read, He points out that he came as a migrant worker and then later a railroad worker and those were the two primary occupations of those arriving early. Next. In regards to the migrants, this is a photograph from the 1950s, a group of local migrants being tape recorded with the music that they played. The migrant population in the early years of Jackson was primarily in the areas of Munich, Dansville, Stockbridge and Parma. And it was soon later in the 30s that they start moving into town itself and procuring jobs in town. You know, I forgot the intros. Yeah. And this is also an article from the early 1960s depicting migrant life here in the Jackson area with both photographs and descriptions of their life here. In particular, the crops were onions and beets were two of the big crops here in Jackson. OK. Now, there were many people, notable residents of Hispanic descent who distinguished themselves. Somebody. I'm not doing that. Oh, well, I'm sorry. We're a little off. Noteworthy. Thank you very much. Noteworthy Hispanic residents of Jackson in the first photograph. I don't have the photographs. Keep going. I apologize for. There we have Johnny Gallegos, a Golden Gloves champ here in Jackson. Next picture. And here we have his brother, Freddy Gallegos, an army soldier during World War Two, who is missing in France. And unfortunately, he did not survive. He was found deceased. Next picture. And we have Benjamin Yeah, Romero, who also was missing in action, but the next photo will show that it had a happier ending. Where this brothers guitars sing and joy at the return of XPW, which is prisoner of war Romero next photo. Eddie Saucedo, also a Golden Gloves boxer that distinguished himself in the Olympics. This is in the 1950s. And this is Richard Morales, deputy director of the Office of Economic Opportunity And Richard Morales, by the way, my wife Stella's uncle, was the first to have earned a PhD for Hispanic in Jackson. This is Teresa Ramos. We believe the first Hispanic Jackson resident that earned an MD and is now a doctor in Chicago. OK. Trying to get to my gosh. Well, this what this photo is, this is in 1942. This is a class of actually multiple nationalities in Jackson taking their lessons for their naturalization test so that they would become citizens of the community. Next picture. Here is, there was one of the many groups in Jackson, and actually I do want to get to the name of the groups. On the PowerPoint. Right there. We have these are different groups throughout the decades in Jackson that when the Hispanic population came together and organized both civil groups and in churches, Mexicanos nationalities. in the 40s, Mexican Mutual Society in the 50s, Latin Americans United on Political Action in the 60s, La Raza Unida, which is an organization that Juan's father was the chairman of, and WJBM, Spanish Radio Program, developed in 1971. And Juan, would you like to talk a little bit about the radio program?

Good evening, everybody. My father, Sylvester Rodriguez, is the one that came, fulfilled his dream. A man with a dream, and he envied other communities for having Spanish radio programming. Detroit, Grand Rapids, Lansing. He goes, why doesn't Jackson have a Spanish radio show? He went with this idea and went to go see the general manager at WIBM, which was on Kibbe Road back in the day. And the general manager, who was John Casey at the particular time, to sort of shoot him down, he goes, go out into the community and bring me 1,000 signatures to see if there's a need for such a programming in Spanish alone. So he collected 1,000 signatures. The signatures are right here still. This is the original. So in 1971, on April 18th, the show becomes reality for this man. Presently, I'm the one in charge of the show now because after four years, he goes, I'm done. I started it, and somebody else could take over, and he tried to give it away, and nobody came forth. So then I stepped forward and said, I'll do it. This year, we started our 55th year here broadcasting locally here in Jackson on a bilingual stage now. So it's in English and Spanish. Angie has been on the show. Many of you others have been on the show as well. We tried to inform the community of what's going on within Jackson and the surrounding areas. But 55 years later, here we are still doing what we do. The late Marty Griffin made a proclamation for our 30th year, and that's here still also. The city of Jackson recognized our accomplishments, and on April 18th of 1971, actually of 1930 years from that was, anyway, he recognized that there will be a Fiesta Allegra Day here in the city of Jackson. And I say thank you for everyone, because there's been numerous interviews, numerous sponsors from within the community. They have supported us. And to this day, they start doing what they do. And I appreciate you all.

Thank you. And further after La Raza Unida, Sacred Heart of Jesus Church, established here in Jackson in 1980. The League of Latin American Citizens, 1998. Comunidad Aqua Viva Church, 2002. And currently we have Nuestra Comunidad that is sponsoring the Hispanic Festival next Saturday. They're the organization that is putting on that event. and speaking of that particular event jackson has a history of celebrating different ethnicities in the 40s the fiesta of nations and other ethnic celebrations the longest running which many of you here might remember is jackson's annual ethnic festival held at paca plaza now jackson crossing And that continued for over 30 years. And unfortunately, there's been a gap since 1998, and it's been resumed in 2022 with the Hispanic Heritage Festival. And in photos, I have a number of photos of the festivals. that's not one of them but go ahead yeah there we go that one these are festivals through the decades uh so it's a shame that uh they have been absent for so long and we're very pleased to see have uh the new one coming up okay and maybe the last photo you know it's it it's me it's a Oh, that's the current one. That's the one this Saturday coming up. And I think I'll leave it at there. And I appreciate everybody their attention. And the Jackson Hispanic community is one to be very proud of. And come come on out Saturday and celebrate with the rest of us for that event.

What time on Saturday?

It's from noon to 10. From noon to 10 o'clock on Saturday.

Music all day long. Right on. Thank you guys so much. And so thank you so much for that presentation. We really appreciate it. It was very informative for myself. I don't know about anybody else, but I appreciate it hearing that history. And just want to briefly read the proclamation that we have written. Whereas each year, National Hispanic Heritage Month is observed from September 15 through October 15 to celebrate the rich histories, cultures, traditions, and contributions of Hispanic and Latino Americans. And whereas generations of Hispanic and Latino Americans have helped shape our nation and communities through leadership, innovation, entrepreneurship, education, public service, the arts, and a deep commitment to family and community. And whereas the City of Jackson recognizes the many Hispanic and Latino residents, families, professionals, business owners, educators, and community leaders whose talents, experiences, and perspectives strengthen our community. And whereas Hispanic Heritage Month provides an opportunity to honor those who came before us by recognizing emerging leaders, young people, and change makers who are creating new possibilities for generations to come. And whereas this year's theme, Pioneers of Change, Shaping the Future Together, celebrates the spirit of those who challenge barriers, create opportunities, inspire progress, and demonstrate what is possible when people work together toward a stronger future. And whereas the city of Jackson values the diversity that enriches our community and recognizes that our shared future is strengthened when every resident has the opportunity to contribute, lead, succeed, and belong. And whereas Hispanic Heritage Month encourages our community to learn from one another, celebrate cultures and stories that have shaped us, and recognize the role that each generation plays in building the Jackson of tomorrow. Now therefore we, members of the City Council and the City of Jackson, Michigan, do hereby proclaim September 15th through October 15th, 2026 as Hispanic Heritage Month in the city of Jackson and encourage residents to join in the celebration, celebrating the heritage achievements, leadership and lasting contributions of Hispanic and Latino Americans while embracing the spirit of pioneers of change, shaping the future together. guys to just join us for us to present this proclamation to you.

Am I allowed in? Absolutely. It's very nice to meet you.

Would you like to take this? Absolutely. OK. That takes care of our presentations and proclamations. Again, thank you for that important history. We needed that today. That brings us down to item number six, public hearings. Item 6A. I'm looking for a motion and support to open a public hearing for the Justice Assistance Grant.

So moved. Support.

It's been moved and supported. Any discussion? Seeing or hearing none, we'll do a voice vote. The clerk will tally the vote. All in favor say aye. Aye. All opposed the same. Okay, sorry. Me and the clerk trying to work this out over here, OK? So I will start by reading our rules for speaking before city council during a public hearing. They are a little bit different than the citizen comment rules. I'm sorry. Number one, each speaker will state their name and address. Number two. During public hearings, the city council may enact a timeline on all speakers to ensure that all present get an equal chance to speak. Council members and or staff may answer questions during this time. Number three, comments made during the public hearing shall remain relevant to the topic of the hearing. Number four, each speaker should be polite and courteous to the council and members of the public in attendance. Number five, while any speaker is free to express his or her opinion, On the specific topic of the public hearing, no speaker may direct personal attacks at any member of the staff or council unrelated to the manner in which they perform their duties, use obscene language while addressing the city council, or engage in disruptive or disorderly behavior during a council meeting. Number six, should the mayor determine that any of the items listed in number five occur, the mayor may declare the speaker out of order. If a speaker is declared out of order by the mayor and refuses to cease and desist from disruptive or disorderly conduct, the mayor may order the person removed from the meeting. Charlotte O'Sullivan.

I'd like to encourage to vote no on the use of the funding for the ALPRs. The guidelines for what the funding can be used for also include like indigent populations or poor people, so I think Why not use it more to support the unhoused and stuff that we've been fighting over so much? I think that makes more sense to me. That's all.

Lindsay Marshall.

Um, I'm Lindsay Marshall. I also would like you to vote no on the funding of cameras. Um, I feel like most of us were forced to read 1984 in school. I feel like it's a pretty big manual of exactly what not to do. And that's where our society is heading towards. Um, I live on the outskirts. I live in grass lake and I've actually found myself. Driving all the way to Ann Arbor so that I don't have to go by the flat cameras that are all over Jackson instead of doing all of my shopping here. So it definitely can affect the economy, drive people away, and also the amount of reports there have been of people being wrongfully arrested. A woman last month in Florida, her name wasn't on the news interview, but it was a Fox News interview I watched online. She was in jail for two weeks because someone who did a hit and run that did kill I believe two or three people her car was misidentified and she was thrown in jail and for a lot of people that's losing your job losing your health care and I just think the money could be used to actually help the citizens and not surveil them also from my research flock has never assisted in actually finding a missing person except their organization Garrett the CEO claims it has but I couldn't find anything to back that up so

Madeline, is it Tula, Turo?

Hi all, my name is Madeline. My address is 3405 Hathaway Lane and I live in Jackson County. We're right across the street actually. Some of you may know me from my younger years of engagement and involvement within uh City Council with the non-discrimination ordinance back in 17 and others might just know of me as the cookie lady either way um it is a pleasure to speak to all of you and I'm here to speak about the JAG and against alprs or automated license plate readers and what I have learned about them while working as a paralegal volunteer for the Council on American Islamic Relations. Mind you, I do not speak for them or on their behalf in this setting. ALPRs such as flock cameras can catalog the make, the model, color of the vehicle and the license plate as well as any contents of open truck beds or if you have a hatchback automobile and there is a window for it plain view doctrine states that you can see like it is It is up for grabs to have a look inside the vehicle. Chief, I think you have some ideas to how that works. Massive salute to you. So that can prove to be a little bit difficult if, say, you are a person of color, if you are black, if you are a Muslim, who if as you can attest and i think you can you are more likely to be surveilled and targeted by not saying you chief other police officers that can be a problem um furthermore That flock cameras are just the basic version of automated license plate readers and the capabilities associated. If you were say to go with axon cameras, one such model is able to not only do the standard automated license plate readers, but also facial recognition. So my government, If this were to be put into place, my government could potentially stalk me. Now, for the indigent, this is an issue because you're more likely to be tracked walking around. But also for those who drive, those who are maybe dealing with delusions of paranoia of the government watching them, well, in that case it's true and it makes rehabilitation harder for them as an example. So I would highly encourage you if you are as liberally minded as I am inclined to believe some of you are, to reconsider. Thank you for your time.

Matt Tucker.

Good evening. Matt Tucker, 7723 Bunker Hill Road here in Jackson. Got to get my glasses. I'm here to speak about the city's use of the $28,024 in JAG funds and the county's use of $14,247 in JAG funds. They wish to continue using the license plate reader subscription and purchase more equipment. A simple internet search shows many states are currently working to ban all surveillance style cameras and plate readers, including flock and accent. One might think this is happening in predominantly blue states. However, this is happening in states like Kentucky, Florida, North Carolina, Texas, and Nevada. Prominent Republican Florida governor and Trump loyalist Ron DeSantis just announced plans to revoke permits for all license plate readers on state highways, saying we don't want a surveillance state in Florida. I don't agree with much of what he says, but I just want to bring that up. Um, another one, Texas governor, prominent Republican Greg Abbott freezing state spending for the cameras. Democratic Governor Josh Shapiro, Pennsylvania. Same thing. Conservative commentator Glenn Beck says it's a form of government out overreach. So there's also federal politicians uniting across party lines to address the issue of this government overreach that's happening. You know when prominent Republican representatives and senators such as Thomas Massey of Kentucky, Lauren Boebert of Colorado, Paul Gosar of Arizona, work together across political lines with progressive Democrat representatives such as Ro Khanna of California, to introduce House Resolution 10221, or the Flock Off Act, that this technology negatively impacts all of us, regardless of how we vote. And most of these negative impacts are unknown right now, but many of us fear the incredible precedent that this sets for the infringement of our Fourth Amendment rights. And just to clarify, realize that it says the Flock Off Act. However, the House resolution also applies to any type of covered camera systems from any company. So not just Flock or Axon. So why is Jackson trying to create a surveillance state? At the same time, high profile leaders from all over the political spectrum are working to ban, remove, and prevent future use of these cameras and this technology. There's a blatant government overreach. It doesn't make sense. It does not make sense to me. And I've been true to say none of you sitting here wants the government overreaching and collecting your personal information and data as you drive by and doing who knows what with it. We don't know what they're doing with it. So I could go on. Um, but to summarize, I just ask, I'm asking you to stop using the surveillance technology on us Jackson citizens, all of us. And furthermore, don't buy more subscriptions or equipment. I can easily think of many, many, many better uses of those funds that could actually help your citizens. Instead of further surveilling us and chipping away at all of our Fourth Amendment rights, So I'll stop with that. Thank you for your time and your service. And I hope you consider these things you're hearing tonight.

Nicholas Thurston. Excuse me, sir.

good evening my name is Nicholas Thurston I live at 410 Bambier Street apartment B here in the city Ward 5 I want to give some feedback on the proposed use of the JG funds other speakers made some good points about how the technology is not really there yet it's not perfect And there are bipartisan measures being put into place to restrict the use until they can get it right. Because some people have been unfairly arrested and accused of crimes they didn't commit. And the actual bad guy they're looking for has gotten away with whatever they did. think that it's important the city of Jackson takes crime more seriously. It's been a big problem here. And, um, so, I mean, I guess that I see kind of both sides of it on one side for people that might support it. For example, there was trucks that cars and trucks, motorcycles sometimes fly up and down my street. And we requested you some years ago for maybe a speed bump to be put in. That was not not happening. But, um, What ended up happening was trucks have crashed into the city bus stop that used to be in front of the rebanner. The bus shelter was totally destroyed in impact. And then telephone poles have been knocked out and fire hydrants have been knocked out and flooded the neighborhood and streets. A flock camera might have been able to catch the people that did that. Or some type of cameras in the area. We don't live in the most well-lit neighborhood and so that it's It's a problem. Sometimes crimes with vehicles other neighbors have complained about people speeding up and down the street There's a guy Dave old strainer. I think his name was was Mentioned that people are doing 80 miles an hour down the street. He's not lying I don't know why people are doing that but it's happening and We have problems with cars and trucks and motorcycles revving their engines slated. I could be two in the morning, three in the morning, waking everybody up in the neighborhood, just kind of going through every street, being as loud and obnoxious as possible. So license plate reader technology or some other type of camera surveillance that could maybe deter that or catch people that are doing it might be able to help. I know the city also had another measure for the eyes on the block initiative that I think was I think we spent probably too much money for the type of technology that was installed. And then the way it was used, it wasn't, they wanted to install it in people's houses, which I don't agree with doing that, because then you have to ask for permission to access the video footage. It just seems like not the right way to go about it. Maybe businesses would be more likely to cooperate and also provide additional security to those storefronts and parking lots. But we do, we live in a city that has one of the highest crime rates in the country. It's something we can't pretend doesn't exist or that's just gonna go away on its own. Or that we can just have no police, defund the police and have social workers and counselors respond to problems that Only law enforcement can solve, and sometimes spending more money for charities and nonprofits and political activists, I don't believe that's the solution to the problem we have. If that was the solution, then it would have been solved probably 50, 60 years ago, and it just keeps getting worse. But yeah, mostly I don't support At least right now, with all the information that I have, I've done a lot of research into the flat cameras and some of the other technologies out there. Like I said, people are getting innocently, falsely accused and arrested. I just don't think the technology is there. I don't think it's worth the money that we spent on it. I think that people are overinvested in what they're actually buying. I don't think that... You know, AI, what we have right now is not really AI. There's large language models and stable diffusion and other stuff like that, machine learning, but it's not actually AI yet. So people, the long-term goal is to get there, but we're not there yet, right now. And so yeah, I think it would be kind of a waste of money. There's a few other cases where officers have been caught abusing the technology to stalk people, people that they knew usually, or sometimes people they had previously arrested. one of the good news aspects of that is people that got caught doing that were punished. People have been demoted, fired, criminally charged cops being held accountable. So the software doesn't just catch the bad guys that are on the streets. It also catches officers that are abusing their job too. That's something else to consider. Um, I think city of Jackson needs more strict standards for who they hire and how long they retain people for if they're abusing their jobs. I don't think the city does a good job of that. And like I said, some of the hiring practices, DEI, I think is not a good way to recruit people. I think that the wrong people are picked for certain jobs and kept around too long and paid premium salaries for jobs, either tasks that are never started or completed or for tasks that they're not even capable of doing. And, um, you know, it's government's on a fashion show. And, um, I think that, uh, you know, the technology that police use is also not a fashion show. If police officers or departments are hiring or contracting with flock cameras to show off, like, Hey, look at this thing we have. It doesn't work. Right. I think it's a waste of money. It's good that people across the country are recognizing there's a problem. And there are, like I said, there's Republicans and Democrats that are canceling the contracts. Hold the companies and their employees accountable. And hold their own staff accountable if they are abusing their job and unfairly targeting people. And socket harassing people. Alright, thanks.

Same clothes.

Hi, Sam Cluse, Ward 5. I really just wanted to speak in opposition to the use of this grant funding. If approved, JPD will receive 28 grand, use the money to continue the subscription of license plate readers throughout the city. Can I ask questions? Can someone explain how many cameras are there and what is the cost of the subscription at this time?

Ma'am, there's 10 cameras in the city of Jackson. And that subscription is about $28,000 per year.

Per year?

Yes. Okay, thank you. You're welcome.

I would also like to... Read, the JAG program provides states, tribes, and local governments with critical funding necessary to support personnel, equipment, supplies, contractual support, training, technical assistance, and information systems for criminal justice or civil proceedings, including for any one or more of the following programs. Law enforcement. prosecution and courts prevention and education corrections and community corrections programs drug treatment and enforcement programs planning evaluation and technology improvement crime victim and witness programs mental health programs and related law enforcement and corrections programs including behavioral programs and crisis intervention teams Implementation of state crisis intervention court proceedings and related programs or initiatives, including but not limited to mental health courts, drug courts, veterans courts, and extreme risk protection order programs. There's a few more things on this list I won't bore you because you all have internet access and can see what the grant funding is available to be used for. once again i don't agree with the subscription with the 10 cameras currently present in the city of jackson there is plenty of research out there to describe the concerns being voiced by my neighbors here tonight so thank you david hamantry

Good evening, Council. Good evening, everybody. Thank you for the work you do. I'm going to speak tonight just as a reminder and a promotion as the this year's chair of the Community Police Oversight Commission. This topic comes up quite a bit during our commission meetings, and we have some time to discuss it and also ask questions beyond the public hearing. So with that in mind, September 10th, this Thursday, we're meeting at the Booth Center six o'clock. Hope to see folks there. And our final meeting for the year will be November 12th at the King Center. to be continued. Thanks much, everybody.

Cindy.

Why would you think it's okay to surveil us 24-7? What would you think if I sat out in the street in my car and followed you, taking notes all the while? And when you got to your destination, what if I waited and when you came out, followed you again? And if I followed you everywhere you went and made the information available to anyone willing to pay for it, what if we got a crew together who did nothing but follow city council members from one place to another we all know what would happen we would be arrested for stalking it's a terrible double standard so registered voters of jackson We have prepared a couple of citizen initiatives to ban flock cameras and other surveillance devices in Jackson. When I go out to the room out there, I'll have the initiative petitions with me. Please come out and read them and consider signing them to block flock. And township and county residents, this concerns you too. Although you can't sign the petitions I have because those are for registered voters in the city, you can do exactly what I have done. If you want to learn more, talk to me and we can talk about how you can do this in your township or we could do it for the whole county. Everything is connected. The actions you have taken to disappear homeless people in Jackson are of a piece with your desire to keep us under surveillance 24-7. We get the message. We are under your thumb and you have the power to control us. However, we are rejecting that message. As the Michigan Constitution, which you all swore an oath and oath to protect as you did the US Constitution, all political power resides in the people, us, the people, not them. All political power resides in the people. You guys may not get that now, but I'm gonna do my best to make sure you will get it.

Jen Dixon.

All right, I'll try this again. So my name is Jen Dixon. I live in Blackman Township, but I spend more of all of the hours that I have inside the city limits of Jackson. I'm here every single day. So what happens here matters to me and is important to me. I am asking that you do not agree to renew the contract using these JAG funds for the ALPRs. And there's a couple of specific reasons. I do agree with several people who have spoken, and I'll try not to bore you by repeating a bunch of those things. But what I want to tell you is that, well, first, actually, since we can ask questions, do we know where our data that is read from these license plate readers is held?

Yes, the data is contained within the system itself after 30 days. What right now is 30 days. Um, it is deleted out unless it's held for some type of criminal investigation. The system as of talking today in a short future here is going to be seven days put out by flock itself. So right now it's 30 They're looking at seven. I think there's some legislation that is on a bill that we're looking for 14. So hope that answers your question.

So it's held on their servers though, correct?

Yes.

Okay. How many local searches, how many times have you guys used the data in those systems to search for information?

We use it a lot, but I don't have the raw numbers right here because we do a lot for criminal investigations. Okay.

So all of that data is also searchable by other users throughout the country who you have signed agreement contracts with and who contract or flock has contracts with?

Not necessarily. We can't control. It's more geographical, if you will. You can't have nationwide searches. You can't have regional searches or you can have searches within your own county. So it's really up to the organizations on how they want to geofence what leaves the cameras associated with their jurisdiction.

So what do you have set up for geofence for our data?

Right now it is in a county database, if you will. It was nationwide.

Up until when?

10 days, I want to say.

So 10 days ago you guys changed it so that it was only countywide?

Yes. Okay. That was certainly the, especially when Flock came out with more...

Features?

Moveability, if you will. Yeah. Security features, absolutely.

Yeah, well, the interesting thing for me is that I am a fan of technology. I believe that there are things that can benefit our lives in some of these technologies. But I do oddly agree with someone I would not normally agree with that we're not there yet. We have examples, which if you guys want, I will find the data for you and actually give you the printouts. I should have brought them. But even though you're saying the data is not held There are cities and counties that are seeing that their data is not being deleted like it should be it's being held in flock databases You are asking a privately owned organization a privately owned organization to protect our data But they are beholden to the shareholders of their particular business. I would feel very differently and I would have a lot of different things to say if we were talking about closed circuit television or recording, I'm sorry. Where we knew that it was on our local servers only, it was not accessible by a nation of who knows who. Because we've seen police officers who have been stalking their girlfriends. We have seen people who have been arrested for crossing state lines and the probable cause was simply that they had crossed state lines. We have examples of people being wrongfully pulled over because of errors in these flock systems. And though I'm speaking of flock because that is who our contract is currently with.

Yes, ma'am, that's correct.

Okay. I want to be clear that the word flock is kind of the Kleenex of this world right now. There are people who have changed over to Axon and other options. But this technology in general, my concern is my safety and my security. And I'd be okay, potentially, if it were not something that is just accessible and it is benefiting private businesses. They are holding on to that data. I don't know what they're doing with it, and you don't know what they're doing with it beyond the guarantees that they give you. But they have been proven that they will set those guarantees aside if it will benefit their shareholders, benefit their bottom line. That's my concern. And this $28,000, $28,000, whatever it is, for this renewal, you have a really interesting opportunity because these JAG funds can be used for a whole host of other things. There are cities that have ended their contracts with FLOC and are currently facing litigations. FLOC suing them for ending their contracts early. You don't have to be in that position. You can just choose not to renew it and you're not opening yourselves up in the city up to potential lawsuits down the road as people get angrier because people are getting angrier we're frustrated with what's happening we want you to want to protect us and there are better solutions out there so what I'm asking you to do is for this renewal say no and then let's have some talks about how we could use that money in better ways down the road because I do believe if you're sitting here you do care about the city and you do care about the citizens So make this small move. You have the great opportunity to do it now. And then we can talk about better solutions. Thanks.

Alex Scott.

Hello, everybody. I figured I'd skip the preamble today of going over legal name stuff. So I'm Alex Scott. And a lot of people have been making some incredible points. Like Jen just made a lot of great points. Madeline especially made a lot of great points. But there are a few things that I haven't heard brought up yet that I'd like to put on the table, especially with the data being stored on flock servers. witness protection program people. This seems like a big danger for them. Granted, I don't know if we have any in Jackson. That's not information I would be privy to, but it's something to think about. And also, okay, I'm an activist. I actively put protests together. I feel like I've pretty cleanly put my name out there as the guy that does that locally. I really don't like the idea that someone could track me around the city. especially being an activist, whether that be the government or someone else on Fox servers, because there's no way those servers aren't immune to say a hacker or something, or really just anyone acting with bad intentions if they really wanted to. And it's like, well, you know, as an activist that could put a huge target on my back and I don't even live in the city. Imagine the people that actually live in city bounds I feel like there's just so many red flags we could sit here all day and talk about. I feel like there are so many reasons to not renew these contracts for the ALPRs. Thank you.

John C. King.

Thank you, Mr. Mayor. John King, 203 3rd Street here in the city. When the flat cameras, the funding was originally approved, Pierre Bormuth and myself were the only ones that actually spoke and mentioned our concerns and everything like that. One thing I mentioned was the FBI, where they surveilled the Trump campaign back in 2016, and even the administration, the point being you can't really always trust government it might not necessarily be government in general but bad people doing bad things that are part of the government that abuse their positions there's the saying you have nothing to worry about if not doing anything illegal and but then with our constitution like the unreasonable search and seizure that those uh kind of conflict where with the cameras everyone gets searched if they go around town so there's a lot of problems i have with the way that is set up The benefits of them are great, you know, in those certain situations, but as some people mention, you know, it's like everyone ends up getting searched, and how can you trust whoever has their data? Someone mentioned, like, police officers. There was a big, like, Vax News and others broke news like the news where there was a female police officer that was abusing the stuff. This was maybe a month back or so. So it's not always males that do it, so on behalf of males, I gotta mention that. For the parking enforcement, I think that has plate readers now. It's been that way. Can someone answer that and how is that related to either the flat cameras or at least their technology or software?

That's completely separate. That's due on our parking checking vehicle. It's mobile and it just uses, just goes in our downtown where there's parking enforcement.

okay so uh there's no connection to like the law enforcement world okay so but it it's a similar technology or at least is you know picking up all that information okay i i uh You know, I guess with it, I would rather see free parking, you know, certain departments, the politics eliminate it. And, you know, the 200 whatever thousand dollars it takes to have, you know, no more assessments on businesses and, um, you know, uh, some way, maybe time parking, you know, scaled down. But, uh, so, you know, there's a lot of concerns with all the cameras, you know, including the law enforcement side, but also for parking that, uh, as others had mentioned, there's concerns with what people do with that information. Thank you.

Thank you. Counsel, did you guys have any questions, comments? during this public hearing portion of the meeting. OK, seeing or hearing none, I'm looking for a motion to close this public hearing. It's been moved and supported. Any question on the motion? Seeing or hearing none, all in favor say aye.

Aye.

All opposed the same. Public hearing is closed now. I'm looking for a motion and support to open a public hearing, conduct a public hearing to receive the citizen comment for the city's community development block grant and home investment partnership program performance for the 2025-26 fiscal year. It's been moved and supported. Any questions on the motion? Seeing or hearing none, all in favor say aye. Aye. All opposed to say public hearing is now open. Uh, Nicholas Thurston.

Um, good evening. My name is Nicholas Thurston. I live at four 10 Van Buren street apartment beat Jackson, Michigan ward five. Wanted to give some feedback on the caper draft. I read through it. I have pulled it up right here and Go through this kind of piece by piece here I Think some of the it looks like progress in here progress report I I think some of this is a bit exaggerated on what was actually the cities doing versus third party companies. What else? Let's see. Yeah, just the way that money was spent. I think there's been a lot of fraud waste and abuse in the way that city contracts have been administered. Some of the contractors that are mentioned in this, Habitat for Humanity has intentionally provided false information to try to qualify for additional government funding they would not normally be eligible for. Community Action Agency has also done this repeatedly. Residents and Actionists mentioned, which they've publicly stated, even at the most recent There was basically like a podcast or a talk show at the Jackson, what do you guys call it, city center. And Tasha Carter literally said that her main goal for the company is not to be a shelter, that other people see them that way, but their goal is to do more racial related stuff. She talked about the black food sovereignty, The Y pop thing and some of the other things and I know Keisha Hamilton's company is also affiliated with them. She basically is like the founder of the. The whole thing and she's been a terrible influence. I think on a lot of people here at City Hall and the school board. Just in general. She made international news for saying white people are evil and some other statements about wanting to eradicate all of the white culture and people and things like that. It's just not compatible with HUD funding or community development or urban development or American development. It's not something I want in my neighborhood and it's not something I want money and contracts to go to. And she also literally stated that she would not apologize for what she said and did. And I take issue with that. And if she would at least come here and say, I'm sorry. Or she could just say one word. Just say sorry and then leave. Or stay longer if she wants to or stay more than that if she wants to. But that's not something that's been addressed here. And we can't have contractors that behave that way. We can't be trusting people with money for vulnerable populations that obviously in Jackson are mostly white. We live in a county that is a white county. The community action agency is supposed to be serving the Jackson, Lenawee and Hillsdale counties, which is like 300,000 people and like 90, probably 98% white. And for a business policy and practice to say that I'm not going to do 98% of my work, but I want 100% of the money, I have a problem with that. It's not how things work. And that's not the standards we should have in Jackson. We shouldn't settle for that low of quality. Rhea's lied about a number of things in the initial Rhea report. They claim there was an officer involved shooting with a homeless Latino man that took place in Kalamazoo. And all of the news articles say it happened in Battle Creek. And the city paid them how many hundreds of thousands of dollars at that point? And so I don't know how you get that so wrong. Like, how do you mix up Battle Creek with Kalamazoo? You know, there's stuff like that. The hotels, as far as I know, there was only five people that were in the hotels from the beginning until the end. And they came and said there was hundreds. And I don't believe that. And nobody did any work to kind of fact check or figure out what the real number was. And I don't trust anything that they say. The initial RFP that the city did was had three applications from the Jackson Housing Commission, Community Action Agency, and then REIA. But at the time, basically REIA consists of personnel from both the Housing Commission and Community Action Agency. So they put competing bids and then a collaborative bid and still got approved. I think that was also wrong and deceptive and not very honest, very misleading. Tasha Carter is the president of Community Action Agency Board right now. And they have an annual budget of about $20 million on average. She behaves as though there's no money. Toby Berry pays herself like $150,000 a year and acts like she's doing stuff for free. I think that's very misleading behavior from a multi-million dollar corporation. that the state and federal government and local government trust to administer contracts and provide public assistance to people, honest information. We don't get honest answers about housing supply or availability of funds. That's a big problem too. They routinely falsely claim that there's housing shortages and there's no availability of affordable housing. In a country where we have 17 million vacancies in apartments and houses, Some of it is rent-controlled apartments and public housing and income-based subsidized specifically for people with disabilities, senior citizen living facilities, various housing options to be had in the country from $0 to if you want to buy a multimillion-dollar mansion, nobody's going to stop you. If you got the money, you can make the deal, and you like each other, and you can pay on time, that's affordable for your budget. You can do it. They don't ever say anything like that. they consistently say that there's less housing available than what the demand is that's what a shortage means for example the the new york uh rent controlled housing there is so much vacancy in the new york rent controlled housing that we could fit the entire population of jackson in it the vacant rent control departments and we could actually give everybody in jackson two of them that's how many that's just new york um austin texas has several hundreds of affordable housing units available and sadly some people still choose to live on the streets or they live a lifestyle that they see themselves kind of as a gypsy and they choose drugs and panhandling and eating out garbage cans and various other things that are not consistent with the conventionally accepted culture of what's normal and what's not normal. They don't care about money. They don't care about being clean. They don't care about doing things that most people find disgusting. And they don't mind doing things that are illegal, robbing people, breaking into cars, houses, squatting, lying, cheating, stealing. And many of the people have criminal backgrounds already. And people make choices is the point I'm trying to make. People make choices. There are options. And your local housing assistance resource agencies are supposed to be saying these things and informing you on what's happening in the whole country and the whole spectrum and informing you that there's over 600,000 vacant houses and apartments in the state of Michigan. Some of them are welfare houses that are zero. And they're not doing that. They're doing things that enrich themselves. They made false statements and put pressure on people to build the Blackstone Apartments. And now the people that live in the Blackstone Apartments, some of them said they're scared to go outside or that they have people stalking their house and their cars and knocking on their windows or trying to open their car doors or follow them home. families that can't go to the parks or push their kids around in strollers because they're being stalked and harassed by people that I view some of them as nomadic criminals that just go from place to place with not good intentions. You know, it is a sensitive subject and I'm not totally heartless is still sad that people live that way. But there's there's so many things to the story that are not talked about and the companies that are getting the contracts should be informing the public of what's really happening and what we are, especially in more fiber were actually living through because I have to go through it every day to get to these meetings and You know, if there are outreach efforts, I want people to be able to get access to things they're eligible for and not be told that there's shortages or nothing available. I don't like when the housing commission says that there's, you know, people have nowhere to go and there's no availability. When I knew they had hundreds of vacant apartments the whole time and everybody called me a stupid and a liar and crazy and stalked and harassed me. And I faced illegal retaliation and people want to put their hands on me and nobody has anything about it. And I'm trying to help for free. I'm trying to do something that is cheaper than free and try to find solutions to problems with what we have already. And, you know, people like Rhea and Community Action, I think they're gold diggers. They just care about money. I don't think they do a good job. And it's been demonstrated multiple times when they did have contracts. Other things that, you know, there was... The community development department has a housing needs assessment survey or something like that on the city website that grossly overestimates the city population to be like close to 34,000, kind of close to that. And Community Action and the Affordable Housing Development Board participated in that. And it's totally false information. It doesn't make sense why they would put something like that together, how it get paid for and be used as like a foundational rubric for decision making. And nobody questions it or checks anything. Nobody scrutinizes them. And Toby Berry is on the Affordable Housing Development Board and Sheila Everts, the CEO of the Habitat for Humanity, is also on the Affordable Housing Development Board. And they advertise their companies during the meetings and tried to direct as much city funding to their businesses Using the board like we saw with the Greenwood Apartments community action owned the lots and they made a hundred thousand dollars off of the sale to the pivotal developer so they got the black Sony and the Greenwood apartments that they wanted and They still say their shortages. Anyways, even though you know new housing units were added and then the rents for those are like a thousand dollars a month and They're income-based, but with minimums. Some of them are like set-asides. There's a small percentage of set-asides. But a person's not going to go from living at a park, pooping and peeing outside, and doing drugs all day, and panhandling and digging out trash cans, to living in an apartment that's $1,000 a month that requires you to make twice rent for your income. And then there's also caps. So there's a minimum and a maximum cap. on the apartments. I think that's kind of in a way doesn't, it takes away the privacy of the people that live there. Um, the exterior, they look fine. I guess they blend in with the rest of the neighborhood. You know, they don't look physically bad style, but there's just some policies I think that have great greatly reduced the access accessibility based on incomes and does nothing to actually solve the problem that community action will say is so important to them. So I think there's a lot of backwards decision making and intentionally deceptive statements made to get money. And like I said, the city's trusted them with multiple contracts and they are letting us down. I'm not against building some types of apartments, but the way that everybody's going about it is definitely wrong. It does violate our rights. We have a right to know that there's over 17 million vacant houses and apartments in the country, and that they can be had for zero dollars if you fall in hard times. If your house burned down right now, that you don't just have to give up. And believe whatever Toby Berry says because she lies and that's all she does she lies cheats and steals She's a very greedy. She's a gold digger. She only cares about herself And I really I think she hates Jackson. I think she hates all of us. She doesn't respect us at all She wouldn't lie and she wouldn't violate our federal for housing rights if she did if she cared about us at all She would tell the truth That doesn't happen They also were the same people that were behind the hundred homes, which is basically HUD houses and And so Toby Berry will complain that the housing is not affordable. She sets the price. The Affordable Housing Development Board sets the price of the 100 homes and they also voted to increase the price to like 178,000. But then she'll come to the meeting and say like we should have no laws and just let people poop and pee outside and stalk everybody in town and. You know you can't make excuses if it's a crime issue. We have to separate the crime issue from the actual availability of housing. rent assistance. If it's a health issue, that's another separate thing. But it's being all these different types of people or different types of issues, problems, underlying causes or whatever you would call it. They're all being lumped together when they just say the homeless, like it's a class of people or like a tribe of people or a race or something. I think that's not the right way to look at it. It's not the right way to solve problems. Definitely is not a way you would help somebody. And I think it's unprofessional for several multi-million dollar corporations to just use stories, sad stories, that are partly true in some ways, but only enriches the company. So people like Tasha Carter can pay herself $125 an hour and then complain when the money is gone. Of course, that will happen. Just a lot of reckless stuff going on. I looked through the... Document there's some other stuff mentioned here About Says the staff does not foresee a change in the Jackson's program objectives which include housing rehabilitation new or converted housing blight elimination through clearance and public infrastructure and facility improvements and i've heard people come here and wonder about what will happen with the clearing sidewalks for accessibility issues during the winter if snow is piling up i i don't know why they forget what her name was she's one of our this is award five neighbor but um i don't why did the staff not include those concerns because people can get hurt that way, especially elderly people or people with disabilities or really anybody could slip and fall on the ice on city property. Um that or you know the sidewalks in front of the city lots that are not well maintained. It just seemed like that would be a priority by now. It's been a couple of years that people keep bringing this up and then there's I don't see the city staff literally says they're not going to change anything. So if people are getting hurt and they're saying like, hey, can we do something? I don't know why the document says they're basically refusing to do that. So if this is community development and they care about us, they're not showing it. I guess that probably would be Shane Laporte. It also mentions the continuum of care, which again, it's just circular to Toby Berry again. And I think they do a terrible job. I think sometimes they exaggerate when it's convenient for them if they think they'll get more money. And then other times they will kind of downplay other issues that might be a bit more severe. But I can assure you that we're taking things more seriously. And if they think it's going to get them more money, it's really going to end up getting them zero. So they should probably stop doing that. Yes, I think it's wrong for the city to give preferential treatment to nonprofits For example the It's not exactly housing development, but it's it's urban development. It's a real relative thing. People need food to survive I think Walmart does a pretty good job They're transparent, you know what they're doing. You know what their job is then, you know the role of the customer, you know the role of the employee and And you see a clear price on the shelf of what the cost of things are. Everybody pays the same price. They have transparency. Are they a greedy corporation that only cares about making money? Yeah. But they do it in a way that's at least somewhat ethical. And they try to find all this cool stuff around the world, put it all in one place for all of us to go. And they say, hey, check out all this cool stuff. Buy something from us. Do business. Come shop. They don't care about what you look like. They're not sizing people up when they come in the door. They're not saying they're partial to girls or Black Lives Matter or whatever. They're just saying you have money, yes or no. Pay your bill or get out. Don't steal from us. That's pretty straightforward and simple. Everybody can understand it's universal. And the city doesn't partner with them. I think Target, same thing. I think they do a pretty good job. City doesn't partner with them. Best Buy does a pretty good job. Transparent, retail industry. The price is the price. Everybody gets the same price unless they have a coupon or employee discount or there's a sale that maybe one person catches and the other person misses. But for the most part, everybody is treated the same way and has relatively similar opportunity. And the city doesn't partner with them. But nonprofits in Jackson do a terrible job consistently for decades. And they have all these special partnerships. They get more money and more land just so they can continue to fail every year. and all they do is come back to us and say, hey, remember me? I failed last year and I wasted all of your money. I hired a bunch of people that suck at their job and really are unemployable, but give me more money and land so I can try again. And that to me is not an acceptable standard. I don't believe that we should be lowering standards for women, lowering standards for minorities, immigrants, LGBT, anything like that. I think we should have the same standard for Anybody that we're hiring and if they're doing a bad job, we should fire them whether it's you know Matt Haggerty or John Green or Community action or Rhea or any of the city staff. I don't care there needs to be a universal commitment to eliminating and at the very least making efforts to reduce the fraud wasted abuse and Reducing the burden expense that's put on to the people that live here. Mr. Mayor

I'm wondering if the speaker can point to the page where Rhea's mentioned, or Community Action Agency has mentioned. I'm trying to follow along.

I don't know the exact... I skipped around through the document, so there's... Let me see here. There's multiple mentions to... Community Action mentions of how the American Rescue Plan money was spent. The SLRF, or whatever they call it, funds... Which there was, you know, I feel like.

Yeah, it was mentioned. I'm just trying to find the community action agency here.

100 Homes, MLK, CIA. There's, I don't know the exact page. There's other stuff too, like street lights were mentioned. but no speed bump for the Van Buren side. Other housing and urban development issues I find is the lots that have been set aside The Prospect Street lot that was supposed to have a grocery store, at least that's what we were told was going to happen, that's not what's happening. Now it's been sold to John Willis' company. And then there's the King's Community Homes. And then the lot on the Cooper Street.

Did you say John Wilson Company?

John Willis' King's Community Homes nonprofit.

That's interesting.

And they're building, I guess their plan is to build an apartment complex. And then the other lot on Cooper Street is also going to be an apartment complex. They say mixed-use housing. But I went and I made a list. I looked through Jackson's history and I found, I'm not going to use up more time to go through the entire list, but I found a list of grocery stores that were in Jackson going all the way back to the 1920s, 100 years. and all the locations they were in. So this is not something that's only been a south side issue. It's the industry of retail, grocery stores and supermarkets. The whole thing. I mean, nationwide, they're closing. There's fewer and fewer pharmacies are closing to part of it is crime. People come in instead of spending money and being cool and shopping and saying, hey, you guys got a bunch of cool stuff here. You know, thank you. They come with a gun and they say, give me all the money and leave. And that's not how you shop at source. And people will fill up shopping carts full of stuff, like Justin Counts, who works for the Community Action Agency. And they just leave with the shopping carts full of stuff and don't pay, and then go to prison for a couple of years. And that's not an acceptable way of doing business. It doesn't support our local economy, makes it harder for people to get access to local grocery stores, and it causes businesses to close down. So Polly's is mentioned several times. There's been several Polly's and Frank's on ANP in the 1930s, 1940s, 60s, 70s, 90s. I'm sorry.

What is this? What's the relevance?

This is relevant to urban development, community development block grants and urban development. Because there have been multiple plans of money set aside for the city's grocery store initiatives that have never come to fruition. I just went and I made a list of stuff at 1100 West Argyle Street. There was Great Scott in the 1970s. Kroger has operated there. 504 Blackstone Street, there's been Red and White Adams in the 1930s to the 1940s. 805 Cooper Street several Polly's Makeovers and remodels and Courtland Street had Market House in the 1940s Ferguson Road 2119 Ferguson Road had Polly's 4616 Francis Street had a Kroger in the 1930s up until the 1940s and 4620 had Francis Street had A&P in the 1930s. 700 West Franklin had Piggly Wiggily's in the 1930s to the 1940s. Kay's Food Market was in the 1940s. 761 West Franklin Street had Kroger's in the 1930s. 766 West Franklin Street had A&P in the 1930s and then was replaced with Kroger in the 1940s. 308 East Gadsden Street had multiple Kroger's. 1021 East Gadsden Street had Kroger's. 1103 East Gadsden Street had A&P through the 1930s and Kay's Food Market through the 1940s. 802 West Ganson Street, 1930s had A&P. It was replaced with Polly's Food Service from the 1940s to the 1960s. 900 West Ganson Street, 1930s had A&P. It was a different street name at the time. It was called Center Street. 807 Greenwood Avenue had A&P in the 1930s. 1129.

I sincerely appreciate the history of all the grocery stores in the community, but I don't understand how that relates to the topic at hand.

Community development and housing and urban development.

Saying that doesn't make it relate to the topic at hand. It does. Can you explain how?

Yes, because the city has expressed multiple initiatives to publicly fund.

In the current document that we're looking at right now, in this particular item that we're discussing that's on the agenda,

And the city has announced multiple developments in this city. Like I said, purchases of multiple lots, sales of multiple lots using public funds. American Rescue Plan Act funds were used to procure the land. You guys applied for other stuff. And the whole story is that there's food deserts that only affect black people on the south side. And that's not accurate information. The whole city has experienced boom and bust cycles of retail grocery stores for over 100 years. So isolating things to only one side of town. And I've been told multiple times, and there's been multiple news articles stating that there's going to be grocery stores in downtown and buildings that are empty right now. We've been told that there's going to be a grocery store at the bottom of 200 that's not there. We were told there was going to be grocery stores at the Lawson and Louis that never materialized. We were told there would be grocery stores at, or a supermarket in Delhi and kind of like a downtown urban grocery store at the, what's the name of the... You're not saying anything and you're just... Hey, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That's not what I'm saying. What was the name of the location? I think they called it Peach Market that also never materialized. I don't see I don't think there will be I don't think any of the city's activity will ever materialize in a grocery store and this sounds like and Even now but the whole industry there's an industry change to reduce sizes and locations affects everybody and A LOT OF THE INFORMATION ABOUT SHORTAGES AND SPECIFIC RACIAL DISCRIMINATION IN FOOD DESERTS IS COMING FROM THE BUSINESSES THAT ARE BEING CONTRACTED WITH AT THE CITY. AND, OF COURSE, JOHN AND WILLIS. AND THAT'S NOT INFORMATION WE SHOULD ACCEPT. IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT MONEY SHOULD BE PUT TOWARDS, ESPECIALLY NOT PUBLIC MONEY AND LAND. AND I THINK IT CAN CREATE UNNECESSARY FEAR IN PEOPLE THAT MIGHT RELY ON THE FALSE INFORMATION They're you know, the sky is falling and they're gonna starve or whatever But there's been other advancements where a lot of the supermarkets now have delivery services Walmart delivers everywhere Now people can use our food stamps online. There's been developments in that So we have to acknowledge that there's been changes both good and bad some comes with technology population fluctuations and decline And anybody in the city can access at the price that's right for their budget or use the payment method that they have that's right for them. If it's food stamps, that's fine, or WIC card, they can do that. People should be informed on what their options are, not being told they're being deprived of something because of the color of their skin or being told that the business is closed because of the color of their skin or whatever. There's a whole industry change. So those are issues of, I think, community development and contracting with HUD funds and things like that that I want to see the correct information being provided to people. Because I'm not the one that gets paid. I'm not community action. I don't have $20 million a year. I'm not Toby Berry. I don't pay myself $150,000 a year. I don't pretend to care about people. I'm trying to inform people on what their options really are. And if city contractors aren't doing that, fire them. Ban them from contracts. Tell them don't come back for more. If they have discriminatory practices, tell them you need to follow the law. And if you don't do that, then no more money. And that would actually help solve a lot of the problems that are perceived as discrimination against maybe particularly the black community. It's just a lack of correct information or accountability on the companies that the city is giving favorable treatment to. Preferences and things like that So And people might not agree with what I'm saying, but that's you know, this is the things that are important to me I live in the city and I look through the documents and I see like a lot of Efforts to continue parting with the same people that are failing or doing a bad job or doing no job They're intentionally doing no job but there seemed to be demanding a lot of money and And I also don't see how giving the $4.5 million to the MLKCIE had anything to do with COVID-19. I think that the city misappropriated a lot of the COVID-19 slur funds.

That's definitely not in this particular document.

It is right here. It says the onset of COVID-19 provided great insight into where gaps exist. Then it says American Rescue Plan money was used. The MLKCIE is mentioned. and the city was awarded.

Are you saying that you disagree with the accuracy of the document or that you just disagree with the use of the money?

Well, there's guidelines. There's a federal guideline document of what the appropriate uses for the money is. It doesn't say DEI. It doesn't say reparations. It doesn't say create business grant giveaways for $50,000 for people that don't even have a company. It doesn't say anything like that. It says to respond to COVID-19, Public infrastructure, gaps in pay for essential employees, like maybe law enforcement or people that have missed work or in departments that weren't able to come into work while they were figuring out if COVID was real or not, or how that would affect the local economy. Revenue replacement for companies that were shut down during the pandemic due to some of the government-mandated lockdowns or changes to economic activity and one of the things that came out of that was the the Rhea scams and the false claims about food deserts and things like that and this like reparations type of narrative and Other things that I don't think were appropriate uses of the federal funding. I Said my neighborhood we wanted us just a speed bump at the in the middle of the street So people wouldn't fly up and down the street and crash into stuff and we couldn't get that. It was not an even option and I think that the city should not continue the policy and practice of hiring bad contractors, retaining bad contractors, wasting millions of dollars on things that are basically nonexistent. And I also don't think the city should provide so much preferential treatment to individuals or organizations. based on specific status. I mentioned the for profit industries get treated, I think not good. And then the nonprofit entries that you act like they could do no wrong and a lot of them actually do a terrible job and they do a lot of wrong and harm to the city.

So Mr Mayor, I think you raised a good point about this report and that that's what it reflects is activities that have already occurred. And if there's any questions about the accuracy of the report, um, I think that is what the purpose of the public hearing is for.

Thank you. I would agree. Is there a question?

Yes, I do have some questions. So based on what I've said about the information on REIA and the issuance of the contracts for things that are not within the federal guidelines, the MLK-CIA funding, the $4.5 million for that, Real hotel stuff the false reports they provided the DEI policies that are not in alignment with HUD rules and Should also not be alone in line with the city rules And definitely don't help poor white question Why are you doing that? And what is going to be done about recouping the funds that were lost to fraud? What's the plan?

Could we just get an update of any audits that we've had on the use of our ARPA dollars? Have we been found for any fraud or misuse of our ARPA funding?

So we have, so since, let me go back. COVID-19 was a long time ago. So since we received the money, we worked with a consulting firm named Guidehouse who shepherded us through the usage of our ARPA money, something that has continued and Looking over at John, I think up until this day, we still contact them for guidance.

Yeah, I'm aware of the guidance.

We have not run afoul of any of those on any of our reports. And then we have not had any findings.

So we've been audited for the use of our ARPA dollars, and we've not had any findings, meaning there's not been anything found for inappropriate use for how we've currently today spent our ARPA dollars. Correct. Okay, thank you for that clarification.

That's not what the government document says about the appropriate uses of the state, local, fiscal recovery funds. So said pretty clearly what guidance was.

So that's your interpretation, right?

No, it's a federal document.

Right, from what you read. No, it isn't. But we've had audits, right? So do you have questions about the validity of the audit?

I do also, yes, because there have been several companies that received money that should not have gone to them. It should not have been set aside for business startup grants. And they received the money, and there's no companies. So what is the plan to recoup? the funds from that.

I would congratulate the speaker on what I believe is a record-breaking public hearing comment that is closer to 40 minutes than 30 minutes. Pursuant to rule number two, I would make a motion that we set a five-minute limit on all speakers during this public hearing.

No.

There is a motion on the floor. Is there a second for that motion? I will second for discussion.

CHRIS RODGERS. Under discussion, Mr. Mayor, the purpose of the motion is pursuant to rule number two to ensure that all present get an equal chance to speak. And I think that we've already seen a number of people leave. I can only assume because they feel that they're kind of passed the point at which they had wanted to be here. I'm not saying that Mr. Thurston doesn't have the right to speak, but I'm concerned that others are being deprived of it by the limitless time.

Any other comments, questions on the motion?

Mr. Thurston, do you have more questions?

I'm sorry, that on the most procedure, the questions would be for council or staff to answer.

Yeah, I understand what the motion is. But for me, I'd just like to see us really look at this and not just do it in the middle of this. His comments or anyone else's comments are more interesting. And I was looking at adding additional item to the agenda to discuss this at the end of the agenda to talk about this. Maybe look at setting a time limit on public comments, public hearing. So for me, I'm more interested in doing something like that. You know, certain people are going to get up and do this. But I think we should really look at setting a time limit, a realistic time limit on public hearing. And that way, we know, they know, they can go 30, 20, 30 minutes like this. They have whatever they're going to talk about on subject and just move on from there.

Mr. Mayor, I appreciate the opinion of the Vice Mayor. I will read the rules for speaking before the City Council for public hearing. During public hearings, the City Council may enact a timeline on all speakers to ensure that all present get an equal chance to speak. I would say that a motion to limit public hearing time limits during the course of public hearing is directly contemplated by the rules as they're written. That's it for me. Thank you.

Any other comments on the motion? My only comment would be I think it's torn between both. I see value in us putting a limit on now, especially time permitting. But I also see some value in us having a discussion. I just don't know how that's going to impact when someone has like a valid concern that they would like to have a actual conversation and have like legitimate questions about a particular topic and are not just here to see how long they can talk for. So I think that puts us in a sticky situation. But I am here for as long as we need to be. CHRIS RODGERS, So that's a great question. CHRIS RODGERS, And quite frankly, I don't care if he talks all night. I'll be honest. I really don't. I think it would suck. I think it would be quite selfish. But if it happens, so be it. But we have a motion with support on the floor. If there's no other comments, questions, or concerns about that motion, the clerk will tally and display the vote. Or we can do a roll call vote. Sorry.

Just a moment. Sure. OK. Some of the comments, I mean, Mr. Thurston, I appreciate your concern and your, you know, your research that you have done, however, There have been a few points where you continually to bring up certain individuals' names. I mean, you spoke it once, but you brought up, you know, I guess I'm not into an argument. I just think that, you know, once it's stated, it's not necessary to keep repeating it. I don't know. I just think that some of it is killing time. And repeating the same comment over and over, bringing out individual names, I just don't think that's really necessary.

So we do have a motion with support on the floor. Is there any other comments, concerns, or questions on the motion for us to enact a five-minute limit on our public hearing? Okay. Seeing none, hearing none, the clerk will call the vote.

Vice Mayor Dancy?

No.

Council Member Gunn?

No.

Council Member Wood?

Yes.

Council Member Hunt?

No.

Council Member Forgrave?

Yes.

Mayor Mahoney? No. Council Member Robinson?

No.

OK, motion fails. Continue.

Do you have any questions for me?

I don't. OK. Should we take a break? Of you'd like to?

No, continue.

I'm not the mayor. I don't decide that. I was.

Continue.

If you want to break out.

Mr. Mayor, can we take a recess, a 10-minute recess, please?

I can wrap up my comment. All right, thank you very much.

Oh, okay. Yeah, sure.

But I wouldn't be clear. I did not say anything to try to mislead anybody. I did say specific names. There's no, you can't say that I can't mention a person's name or occupation. So there's no, I'm saying there's no, you have no authority to determine what I can or cannot say. But just trying to provide information as much as I could. From, like I said, my own lived experience, if that's valid around here or not. And I did not, there's no timer and there's no clock. Oh, I guess there's a clock on this side. Sorry about that. I did not know how much time I spent, but the housing document is long document. There's like 20 something pages on my back.

Um, so 29 pages. Yeah.

So I was kind of referencing stuff in the document as I was speaking and then also trying to bride, uh, uh, comparison to what's happening now in the, Modern economy. No, I think appropriate uses of community development block grants and Hide funds or should be for should not be used for So it is relevant to the topic. You might not feel that way, but yes, thank you. We appreciate All right. Thank you

Council, I got two comments left. I would ask that we just finish the rest of this public hearing, and then we can take a brief break. John C. King.

Thank you Mr. Mayor. John King, two zero three third street here in the city. Um, Know in the report there was sort of a lot of References to like ARPA funds and in other things like that. So in a lot of ways they were sort of related I'm in in the report. I think I've seen something where more specifically for a community development block grant 2526 that maybe it was like just over $945,000. Is that right? You know, just the community, uh, development black grant that was spent. Okay.

Yes.

Um, it mentioned homelessness. homeless prevention $196,000 what What was that spent on that would prevent homelessness? Okay

We probably don't own this stuff.

Thank you for the question. So I'm going to speak a little bit, Mr. Kim, but I'm going to not provide full context because I was not present in this role when those funds began being expended. So I'm going to give you the snapshot answer as best I can, but please keep in mind I was not on staff when the homeless prevention activities started. Those dollars were dispersed to a community action agency to help with things like rental assistance, bill paying. and other expenses that families incurred during the COVID-19 pandemic that they could not otherwise pay due to loss of wages. So that was the bulk of the homeless prevention dollars in a really broad snapshot.

Okay. for uh the 945 uh just over 945 000 i seen that it mentioned that three households were assisted with that how might they have been assisted and why did it does it seem like maybe that is kind of low maybe it's not but my impression what why couldn't more be done with that money

I appreciate the question. That gives me a chance to talk about it. And the beauty of this report is that it allows city staff to highlight the positives, all of the great work that was done. But it also allows us an opportunity to say, you know what, maybe we missed the mark. Maybe we missed our goal percentage. Maybe we didn't do our best job in one area because we focused on another area. And so I appreciate you calling that out. Those three households were all impacted by what we called rehabilitation grants. That's a staple of city CDBG funding and has been for almost 50 years, which is almost the entirety of the city's entitlement funding from HUD. I say that as a point of pride just to reference that. So our rehabilitation program out of CDBG tackles things like furnace replacement when it's cold. roof replacement when there's a hole in a roof, or a water heater replacement when it explodes, foundation replacement when a wall is crumbling. We use those dollars to assist low to moderate income households earning under 80% of the area median income as prescribed by HUD. Our typical goal is to assist 10 households in that program. Out of the CDBG bucket, this year we only assisted two. That's a problem for me, right? That means we only hit 20% of our mark. The other number you mentioned, three, that's part of the Partnership Park Rehabilitation Program. Those dollars are administered from the Community Action Agency. That's a recognized nonprofit partner here in the city, as Mr. Thurston so aptly reminded us just a few moments ago. The Partnership Park Program utilizes rehabilitation funds to assist people who have just purchased a home out of the Partnership Park Rental Program. If you've been in Jackson for a while, you may remember. There were 15 to 18 homes that were constructed utilizing city home dollars out of the HUD budget and LIHTC, low-income housing tax credit dollars out of MSHDA, now almost 17 years ago, to construct those homes in and around the downtown core in what is now known as the Partnership Park neighborhood. Those were affordable rentals administered by CAA. When those turned over after the 15-year affordability period, CAA started selling them off for $60,000 a home, a great discount and a way for, again, low to moderate income families earning under that 80% AMI mark to both afford that house and then develop some stability in home ownership. That's actually quite the revolutionary program. HUD has cited our staff numerous times in saying that there are other communities throughout Michigan that would like to start that but can't understand how in the world we got it done. because it's both so complicated and so revolutionary that they just didn't understand how to get there. That's pretty impressive for our staff. I give kudos to Michelle Pultz, our previous person in my role some 15 years ago, who actually spearheaded that program at the time. So that gets us two plus one means three rehabs out of the goal of 10. Again, I mentioned that's low. That's low for three reasons. One, we just came off of expending a quarter of a million dollar grant with the state, with MSHDA, for the exact same type of projects, rehabilitation. And so we needed to make sure that those dollars were spent on time. They had an earlier expiration date than our CDBG funds did. So we made sure that we spent those down before our CDBG funds. So we moved some focus for that last year. Two, our 100 homes program, which we've made no secret of, has been a massive focus for us. And as you may remember, we've expressed concerns about making sure that those dollars were expended by the federally prescribed deadline of December 31st. So we made sure that in the last calendar year, we put a little more focus into that bucket. And again, put some of our rehabs on hold to make sure that those funds were spent on time because they had a quicker deadline of spending and then third we had some staff turnover in our department this year we lost one of our key players he got a great promotion which was a huge win for him but we had a couple months where we were down a staffer and that meant that we didn't approve some rehabs in those two months and so we're back on full full full load now and I'm happy to say that the rehab board has 11 pending projects on it we're on track to do at least 20 rehabs so double our annual goal in this next fiscal year So I feel like we're going to use this opportunity both as a learning for staff to just balance our expenditures a little more carefully and also to make sure if we miss the mark on this in the first year, we're going to knock it out of the park in the next year. And I appreciate you calling me out on that.

Okay. I forgot to mention first that I had seen that there were postings about this public hearing at City Hall, the Community Action Agency Library, Reed Manor, and a few of the other ones with the city. Now I'm assuming it wasn't posted in the burnt out building. uh, which, you know, I, I, you know, they, it's a really unfortunate situation. Uh, was any help, uh, provided to the residents that got, um, like out of this grant was they had something that was even possible or at the time or, okay. Um, so in the report it mentions reducing and ending homelessness now i think one thing there i would think well gee if you want to end it you know as i mentioned before uh you got to get people drug treatment and mental health care because i think that's like the by far the biggest majority of you know the the i call it so so-called homeless because a lot of times You know as I mentioned that they have drug issues and other things like that as far as the city is concerned or With this report they put in reducing and ending homelessness, which may be It's going to be an extremely hard goal to achieve in the city of Jackson, but When it mentions that what? Do they have a definition of what they consider homelessness is far or why you know the the reducing an endless? Is that just a very general thing that you know it could be? You know, as I mentioned, drug addiction, treatment, mental health care, but also. you know, getting documents or assisting people that way? Or or is it more going through, you know, funds going to the community action agency and not maybe other organizations? Is that the what is meant by reducing and ending homelessness?

I'm going to use your question to highlight just a couple things, if I may. And this is maybe a point of reference in a report like this. I enjoy many aspects of my job, including the chance to write, the chance to write and reflect on the work that we do as a community development staff every day. And again, what we've done well, what we haven't, and then how we can showcase that and share that with the community so that you all aren't in the dark. I met with a woman and her mother today and we were talking about an unrelated topic on the third floor. But I was reminded when she asked about revenue, I was reminded that the revenue that we receive and the money that we are so fortunate to spend is your money. This is the people's money, both from the federal government and from your tax dollars. And that's not a job that those of us in this building take lightly. And so I appreciate any chance that we can have a staff to share the work that we do in expending your funds as appropriately as council directs and as we deem necessary based on the knowledge that we have. Related to homelessness, This report has certain sections that are prescribed by HUD. In other words, I don't get to choose what they are. If I did, I might very well choose the same things, but I'll probably also choose more because I just like to write. HUD requires us to report on homelessness, and so we do, not just because we are required to, but because we should. As Mr. Thurston, I think, was dancing around the topic, community development is much broader than just what CDBG and home dollars provide. Homelessness is a necessary component of that work. The other piece of that, however, and this is what we try to highlight in this report, by both saying a lot about homelessness and also saying a little, is recognizing the line that government has and must walk difficultly each day here as a staff and as a council to both determine how we can spend dollars and resources and capacity to end homelessness and also where that must stop and where we must partner with our nonprofit agencies. This is a difficult role. and not anything that is taken lightly so i hope that you will read through that those sections in this report to both understand the work that we do in collaboration with coc sharing funds with caa for homeless prevention having those conversations and looking to ria are the community partners and the work that they're doing interfacing with folks like steve castle interface shelter and others and also recognizing where the dollars don't go and understanding perhaps why they don't or can't based on the line, the difficult line the government must walk and how those dollars are spent and how that work is done and also then empowering our non-profits to take the lead on those important initiatives.

Okay, and One issue that I take with the report as far as accuracy and everything, it mentions RIA plans on a homeless shelter and outreach shelter, sort of like TA Wilson, and that's something, for a couple years at least now, I've been trying to make the public aware of what's going on. Currently, They had the annex shelter that the city fixed up as a homeless shelter, but they're using it for their own private business or nonprofits this past winter when it was really cold. And with the main part of T.A. Wilson School, they actually have it, you know, their original plan was, They wanted to fix that up for their own nonprofits or personal businesses and get funding for that, that Mr. Thurston mentioned, the race-related issues. I think it's pretty clear they don't really plan on doing Homelessness otherwise, you know, they would have been making more efforts like even when it got really cold this winter that uh If they really were worried about homelessness, they would have done something different than what they've done so, uh, you know, I hear they had contention with the the report And overall and it was sort of mentioned and I wrote this jacket this note down before mr thirst and started speaking You know, there's been the issue of, uh, Tasha Carter, who I always say, Tasha, show me the money, Carter. Um, that she's the chair of the board of the community action agency. And then Toby Berry is, you know, kind of essentially sort of reports to her. But when way back few years when the city was taking bids, uh, for the homelessness, it's like the community action agency was one and residents in action and it's kind of like what's Toby Berry supposed to do? You know, it's like she's challenging her boss, you know, so there's kind of a conflict there even with the continuum of care that, you know, I I have issues, you know, with the way a lot of that is done. So it, uh, with this money, the way it's being spent, is there any consideration as far as for what some people might think are conflicts of interest?

I don't know. Maybe Mr. Green wants to tackle that.

Yeah, if he wants to, I guess.

I'm going to be honest, John. You kind of lost me. So the decisions about how money gets spent, this money gets spent, are made by a council. things are approved by us through applications, you're asking, like, you want us to go back and audit stuff?

With this report, the council, I guess, didn't actually do this report. You know, they'll vote on it, but I guess, so I have the issues, you know, with, you know, as I just mentioned, you know, with Toby Berry, and Tasha Carter. Now, the last meeting I was in the back, Toby Berry said, oh, hi, John, and how are you doing? And it was really nice to me. And even though, you know, I kind of sort of criticized her earlier in the day, but I just wanted to mention that, you know, she was very kind to me later on in the meeting. So there's issues like that that you know, uh, conflicts can be in the eye of beholder, I guess. So, um, so with that, I'll say he have a good night. Thank you. Oh, I guess I'll maybe be back up here one more time.

So Sam clues.

Okay, Sam Clues, Ward 5, once again. In April, there was a public hearing for the city's proposed substantial amendment number one to the 2025-2026 annual action plan for the reallocation of home investment partnership program home funds. um i had actually written a comment i wasn't able to attend that hearing in person um and it was brought to my attention by my representative that my comment did not make it to the dais is that correct incorrect well i it's actually quite short so i'll just read it if that's fine City Clerk, Council, and Management, I regret I cannot attend this hearing in person. Please read my public comment in full. Regards, Sam Kloos, 906 First Street, Ward 5. In a departmental report dated April 7th, 2026, Director of Public Works Mike Osborne writes, quote, Public Works has had the responsibility for the contracted maintenance of city-owned lots and grounds maintenance property since 2013. A contractor has been utilized for city owned lots since 2013 and for the grounds maintenance since 2017. Public works employees maintained the grounds maintenance properties up until 2017. Mowing work is included in the annual budget. $150,756.56 was paid for the entire 2025 mowing season for those three contracts. Please provide clarification on the following inquiries and observations. Is DPW solely responsible for maintenance of city-owned lots? Is there more to that? No, just no. DPW is not responsible.

not solely responsible. Can you elaborate on who else may be responsible? There could be contractors and other city staff.

Okay. Per the 2026 2027 draft annual action plan. The city also owns approximately 500 buildable residential lots. That's about 5 miles of public sidewalk as I have addressed repeatedly. So at this point, did the CDBG Community Development Block Grant or the annual budget account for winter maintenance of city owned lots?

It accounted for some.

Does that include shoveling the sidewalks and maintaining compliance with the ADA?

It included responding to citizen complaints.

I was actually one of those citizen complaints and I was told directly by the Department of Public Works that resources are not available. This was in January.

What was there asked for a specific

Yes, the parcel directly next to my property that the city purchased the year prior. So I did call, I followed the process, I complained. Are city-owned lots exempt from the city snow and ice removal ordinance?

No.

are city owned lot sidewalks exempt from the Americans with disabilities act?

No.

Okay. How will the City of Jackson, whether it's Public Works or Community Development, whomever you want to call the responsible party, how will you collaborate to ensure the, at this time, 100 homes property inventory will achieve compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act as intended by the City of Jackson's Snow and Ice Removal Ordinance?

We're looking to add more resources to cover off the problem, i.e. being able to snowplow when it exceeds the ordinance provision.

You're looking into, can you repeat that please?

So we're trying to add more money to the fund. Sam, you pro you pose this problem and I'm trying to respond to the problem. Well, I mean, so, so what we're doing is trying to add more money to it and so we can send somebody out there and it can be less complaint based and more like when we know it's over four inches, I believe, which is what the ordinance calls for.

What is the status of this?

It's September. September. So when the snow flies and we have these issues, we hope we're in a better situation going forward.

Well, but we also discussed this in February when the snow was still flying and you were there and you were there and you were there. So Here we are in September, you're right. And what else have we seen this summer? Emergency sidewalk clearance ordinances being proposed, being drafted, isn't that accurate? But you don't have a plan to maintain your sidewalks throughout the winter at this time because it's September, is that accurate?

No, we do have a plan. Sam, I'm trying to, I'm sorry if I came off flippant. I heard you. We do know it's a problem. We do know we have not been good at it. Historically, we have not been good at clearing the sidewalks to the minimum allowed provisions in the ordinance. We have not. So we've had to put some money behind it. And February is a hard time for us to put the money and resources behind it, so I've had to plan for it. So as we sit here in September, yes. we are monitoring how many properties we still have, where they are and what we can do on the temporary basis to cover these situations and make sure that something is passable. Definitely heard you Sam and we're trying to work on it. So thank you.

That's weird cause I haven't heard any follow up whatsoever. I met with Mr Willis to discuss a better way forward after my representative failed to follow up on anything. Um, and again, for my neighbors awareness, I submitted this prior to that hearing in April and The last, I'm not even done reading the six points I have, but with consideration of these observations, can CDBG funding be allocated for city-owned lot maintenance? Why or why not? And I did receive feedback from Mr. Mays that council had failed to indicate a goal. So once again, I don't see where the disconnect is if we're discussing, if I'm calling Department of Public Works in January, talking to you all in February, submitting my understanding of funds usage and comment, which was then not read into the public record, and the clerk stated that that Um, was apparently changed in 2021, but I actually moved here in late 2022 and I've sat through many meetings and I have witnessed other public comments being read by the clerk in January of 23 is my earliest recollection. So that timeline doesn't really make sense where I have something to say and submit it and suddenly it doesn't get read. So here I am tonight to follow up on something that has been a problem since last winter. And I bring this up once again because it affects everyone. It affects my family. It affects my neighbors. So where is the failure? Where is the disconnect in communication? I would like to understand because if community development says it's council and I'm being told that council has been provided what I have to say, and then my rep says, no, I have no recollection of that. It's like, how am I supposed to participate in what was described as my money, our money? How am I supposed to have a say? And what are you doing to fix it? These are parcels too small for building. This is just one ward. I've had this for years.

um just a couple of questions i guess i do need clarification that the cdbg or home funds could be used for that purpose so they they can't they can only be used in cdb cdb eligible areas this problem is larger than cdb eligible areas so we're working with extend

this issue sounds like it extends throughout the whole city throughout the whole city these funds are limited to use in specific areas is that correct yep and in areas where you have adopted them as priorities in the strategic plan so i understand that that you are working on a solution i appreciate that do we know what the cost or an estimated cost if we were to plow the sidewalk for every city owned property that how that would increase or impact the rest of the not yet not yet server still working on getting those numbers that is really up to this point how have we managed or addressed if there's an issue or a complaint of a vacant lot that has snow over four inches

When those complaints come in, they're given to our public works department and effort is made to clear the snow either through physical means like shoveling or snow plow, snow blowing or through salt.

So is it safe to say that we should expect to see something probably within the next couple of months on this particular issue, or what kind of timeline do you have in mind on this particular issue?

The fact of the matter is if we determine that we think we can cover the amount of vacant properties we have and estimate how many times we'll have a snow event over four inches that would kick the ordinances coordinates in if it seems like that amount would stay within our budget amount you'll likely not see anything but if i need to come back to you guys with the budget amendment and area sources to fund the program then you will but um I'm happy to report that a number of lots, uh, we have has gone down. So the numbers are improving. It's just a matter of how often do we think it will snow or create the situations where this ordinance would kick in and we'd have to do it historically.

Uh, do you know if we've received a lot of complaints about this particular issue? I do agree Sam brought this up last year, but that's the last time and the only person that I've heard from on this particular issue.

Well, you can't find your ADA compliance information online.

Let's be honest. Sam isn't the only one to complain. There aren't a lot of complaints. I'd say more often than not, there are complaints of private residents.

So private residents that need to be proud versus city-owned? Correct, sir. Okay. And this particular issue was around the city-owned that the city should be managing.

Is that a correct characterization that we're talking about city-owned lots?

We are talking about sitting on lots, yes.

Thank you. That was all my questions.

Thank you. Has anyone had that conversation about a better way forward? The draft plan that I met with John Willis about in, I think it was February and June. We met twice. I have a draft here. Are you familiar? Has anyone discussed this? Is this the plan?

No, that's not the plan.

This is not the plan. Okay. So the better way forward actually is generally to pay unhoused individuals to do the shoveling. Well, it excludes city residents who are not at a shelter. So if I wanted to go out and shovel the lot directly next to mine, I'm not part of this program. I'm excluded from the workforce with regard for that. So I don't personally support it. I haven't heard any follow-up on whether or not it's being discussed or planning to be implemented this year. So you're not familiar with it?

No, I am.

You are? Did you and John meet about this or do you?

Yeah.

Okay.

What were your thoughts? It seemed like a good program. It's not germane to this consolidated annual report and it's been a minute since I met with John on it, but I liked the idea. I supported it and asked him what we could do to make it happen.

Okay. I mean, I suppose you're correct, but this is like my feedback on this. And because I was not privy to having my comments addressed previously to date, here we are. And once again, I think it is relevant that we are talking about an ordinance that already exists that the city has failed to enforce. and yet here you will vote on the personal property ordinance later tonight. It's just unbelievable, honestly. I really hope you vote that down.

I'm done.

Mr. Mayor. Yes, ma'am. 10-minute recess, please. Motion to close the public hearing.

Motion to close the public hearing. It's been moved and supported. Is there any comments on the motion? Seeing or hearing none, all in favor say aye. Aye. All opposed the same. And then you said you have a motion for? 10-minute recess. Is there a second? Second. All in favor say aye. Aye. All opposed the same. It is now 9.05. I'm looking for a motion and support for us to return from our break. It's been moved and supported. Any questions, comments, concerns on the motion? Seeing or hearing none, all in favor say aye. Aye. All opposed, same. We are back. Uh, council, if you will please refresh your voting apparatuses or your screen, however you want to view it, just refresh and we will resume actually probably didn't need to. We are at item number seven, uh, citizen comment portion of the meeting. I will start as we usually do by reading the rules for speaking before the city council, which are a little bit different than our public hearing rules. Number one, each speaker will state their name and address prior to addressing council. Number two, each speaker is limited to up to three minutes during the citizen comment portion of the meeting. Council members will not answer questions or debate at this time. Number three, each speaker should be polite and courteous to the council and members of the public in attendance. While any speaker is free to express his or her opinion on any subject, no speaker may direct personal attacks at any member of the staff or council unrelated to the manner in which they perform their duties, use obscene language while addressing the city council, or engage in disruptive or disorderly behavior during a council meeting. Number four, should any speaker cause a breach of the peace through their conduct, the mayor may declare the speaker out of order. Number five, if a speaker is declared out of order by the mayor and refuses to cease and desist from disruptive or disorderly conduct, the mayor may order the person removed from the meeting. Number six, each speaker may speak once under public comment and may not yield their time to others. Patricia Gauguin?

My name is . 2258 Jackson, Michigan 49202. And I wanted to speak about the Ordinance 2026-03. I have been listening to a lot of comment today by my interpreter. which I'm very grateful for. This is the first time I've heard this meeting, and it's been very eye-opening on how we're treating our neighbors, our children of God, our brothers and sisters, how we're treating animals better than we treat them. You know, it's like these are people and they for 11 years, I know firsthand that they didn't choose to be homeless. None of them chose it. Probably thousands of people have helped. None of them have chosen it. And they don't like it. They want a home. They want to be out of the element. And what's going to happen now is the only home that they know, a tent, is going to be taken from them. And their stuff, all they have in the world, is going to be ripped from them. It's all they have. And they have to be near a toilet so they don't poop and pee in the grass or whatever. It's just appalling how we're treating our brothers and sisters. And then the lady who was exercising her religion took the people into her backyard and then the city swooped down and said what she could do in her own home, her own home. It's like we're being... Like we're again, Jews. If now it's the homeless, what next? The handicapped? You know what next? You know? Just a problem. Thank you.

Nicholas Thurston.

Good evening. My name is Nicholas Thurston. I live at 410 Van Buren Street, apartment B, Jackson, Michigan, Ward 5. I just want to be clear. I'm not saying or doing anything to try to make any individual person feel attacked. I am criticizing how people do their job and spend money and how businesses in the city operate. I think everybody should. It's called the CAPER report. It's on the city website. There's a portion, and the document was 29 pages, and that's part of why I talked so long, so sorry about that. I wasn't trying to hog time or do anything inappropriate. The document's 29 pages, and there's a lot of information, so what I said was information dense to respond to what's in here. It says conversations with local housing providers reveals affordable housing in Jackson may not necessarily be limited to a specific type of housing, but rather addressing the issues that interfere with obtaining housing. So part of what I was describing is issues that interfere with that. And it says there's local housing providers, mostly they're going to be the non-profits that get preferences and basically unlimited amount of money and land that I feel are competing against the people that live here. And they're extracting our money from us. They're extracting our land from us. And nobody's offered me any millions of dollars or contracts or big chunks of land or old buildings or nothing like that, just so we're clear. So there's definitely a lot of double standards in how people get treated. But it says there's landlords unaware of the laws governing rental housing, including fair housing laws and prohibited discriminatory practices. which that happens a lot in Jackson. I've seen it and I've helped a lot of people. I don't brag about it or broadcast it, but I've helped hundreds of people in many different ways. And again, my budget is less than zero. I have to divide by zero to get things done. And your contractors don't do that. They cost you a lot of money. They cost you millions of dollars. I've saved you guys hundreds of millions of dollars out of state budget. I've saved you guys hundreds of billions of dollars in the federal budget. And I'm trying to help you save money at the local level, too, because resources are limited. The use case for public resources are limited. The amount of public resources are limited. The number of city staff is limited. All these things are very limited, and I recognize that. And as much as I'm flattered you would like to give me money because of the color of my skin or hiring me or whatever you guys want to do, take pictures, I'm trying to help you for free. And I think I'm probably one of the few people in town, my neighbor John does a good job too, but I'm trying to help you for cheaper than free. And I challenge the nonprofits and I challenge everybody in Jackson, all 30,000 of you, Help the city of Jackson for cheaper than free, less than zero. Help us save money and cut fraud, waste, and abuse. Thank you.

JOHANN GALLOWAY. Charlotte O'Sullivan.

Hello, I'm Charlotte O'Sullivan. I'm asking the council to vote no on proposed personal property ordinance. This ordinance will not do anything to address the problems of homelessness, but it will make being homeless harder for those experiencing it. Even though this ordinance does not say the word homeless, so you can tell yourself that this ordinance does not single out one person or group based on their housing status. Many public comments have presented you with evidence from primary research, case studies, and direct accounts from unhoused people that this ordinance will have greater negative impacts on unhoused people as a group. A yes vote on this ordinance would violate people's Fourth Amendment rights to be able so that it would allow being able to take and search through people's stuff without a warrant. And I think that's unacceptable. The city cannot ignore the evidence facing it that this ordinance is unethical and will make homelessness worse. I ask that you do not pass this ordinance in any way and instead focus on offering voluntary storage and engage with the unhoused community here to learn what would help make Jackson safer for everyone.

Aaron Sapinski. John C. King.

Thank you, Mr. Mayor. John King, 203 3rd Street here in the city. I was alerted to Justin Counts doing an analysis on his Facebook page of my previous citizen comment. I had mentioned a couple of panelists being in prison, and he kind of said, oh, well, just because someone had spent time in prison shouldn't be in maybe his situation on that panel. The point I was making is that And it turns out both of those that I was talking about coincidentally had both been caught stealing from Walmarts and they just had a history of thievery and stuff like that. So the point I was making when you have thieves, which I kind of detest quite a bit, When they come to the government and say, oh, just give me a bunch of money so I can run this, you know, allegedly helping homeless people, you know, I take issue with that. If it were even someone that might have murdered someone, depending on the circumstances, I would rather, I would think they might be better suited than some con artists that are trying to con, you know, government to give them money and Blow it in whatever way they do He also mentioned naming names You know I tend I like to rather than casting vast dispersions I like to sometimes name names so they you know so I don't cast the dispersion on innocent people and stuff like that. Connor Wood, last meeting, kind of mentioned some people don't care, you know, and it's like don't care about what and who, what people. You know, I could say, you know, children, you know, certain people don't care about children. let's say the folk Catholic Third World Council members, I would say she doesn't care about unborn children. She don't care about children that are being trans. She doesn't care about the children dying in the Rio Grande, you know, because of the open borders policies. So with this homelessness ordinance, you know, I could say, well, you don't care about the children that can't go to the library because of what's going on, you know, with all these so-called homeless people. You don't care about, you know, if the child were to get in the restroom and get one of these needles and say they die because of some type of overdose playing with the needle. So, you know, if you care about children and also the homeless, help the homeless get rid of their bad habits. Thank you. Riley Clues.

Riley Clues, Ward 5. Hope you guys are all listening. to everything everybody's saying tonight because these are the people who elected you. Most of you, I know you weren't, you weren't, but we're in charge, not you guys. We figure it out, figure out our way. If you like sitting up here, I know you're out of here, so congratulations. But you know, the personal property ordinance vote no. Stop stop pushing it. You know, thank you, Freddie, for being here finally so that we can get this over with. You know, that's good. But a great point was brought up earlier by the first public comments that. We are all human. Everybody human. With possibly the exception of landlords and realtors, thank you.

Same clues.

Sam Clues, Ward 5. Once again, please vote no on the flock extension and please vote no on the personal property ordinance that we have discussed for three meetings now. Thank you.

Steve Johnson.

Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Steve Johnson, 1619 North Dade Drive. You're right, I probably should have talked earlier. I have concerns about the flock cameras and how they're being used. I will admit that you can take my picture, fine, but I haven't given you permission to share or sell that data. I don't think that's really fair. But what disturbs me most is having learned that this company just recently started monitoring its database logs. I worked with databases my whole career there. We make sure that we don't sell your information. This is at consumers. I could look at all of your consumers data, but we don't sell that out to other people. We have to only for the purposes that it was used for. So here we have a database company that has a flawed system. It's been running for, what, seven, eight, nine years. It makes me concerned that they don't have other monitoring involved. This is personal data, real-time data, and you're sharing it with who knows, and that's the problem. They're just, they're not, I don't have a really good feeling about them and I don't think that their system's good if they haven't done basic database maintenance and database monitoring. So you really don't know who's using the system and the data, well, can be abused. As you've heard, we've got stalking instances, following around the ex-lovers. As we just learned, child molesters are in the Sheriff's Department. At least they found them and they got them off. We don't know who has access. I'm going to find out Thursday more about the monitoring and controls that are in place, who's doing the auditing, are all very important. So if you have stalking child molesters, who else, why not other criminals can be in police or the sheriff's department? MAGA militia is what really bothers me, what they could use with this data. If they're so bad at their compliance, do we have compliance with any regulations? anything of that nature, why not sell this to whomever? And so that's the basic. Who's the accountable authority here? I think it's you guys. And I'd love to hear what the ROI is for this, given that you've really infringed upon my civil rights. Am I done? Oh, sorry. Thank you.

Hey, what's up?

Hello again. So for the third meeting now, I am once again talking about the personal property ordinance and I've been thinking about this since the last meeting. I pretty much had a comment in mind since the last meeting because it kept bringing it kept getting brought up that it and I think this is a good point that. It feels like we've gotten a little bit away from actually addressing the personal property ordinance because it's brought up a lot of issues about homelessness as a whole. But I can only really speak for myself here. I'm not trying to ask you guys to solve homeless notice. It'd be great if you did. I'd be all for it. I would help in any way I can. That'd be awesome. But that's not why I'm here tonight. I'm here tonight because the specific way the city has chosen to solve the reported issue of things blocking the sidewalks uh would like that specific method that has been that has been chosen would make the lives of our unhoused populace significantly harder than they need to be and i think it has not been properly considered if it is worth the trade-off of no like of not mildly inconveniencing a few people going up and down the city streets or drastically driving down the quality of life of people who already don't have an especially high quality of life. It's been brought up at previous meetings with quotes from people who have experienced the results of similar ordinances like this in other areas like Grand Rapids. What this does to people, what it does to them mentally, what it does to them physically, we've seen how little fits in those 32 gallon tubs. Ultimately, I don't think any textual changes to this ordinance will change that at its core, it is choosing to deal with one issue by causing a bigger issue for a populace that already has so many issues on their plate to deal with. Thank you.

Cindy Evie.

yeah i guess um i'd like to say to you that if you are not able to provide protection service and protection to the citizens of jackson without interfering with our um our constitutionally protected rights maybe you should go get a different job I don't know. I mean, I've never had any complaints about you, but police officers and police chiefs have been providing these services to citizens without constant surveillance for hundreds of years. So I wish you would just do that. And the whole issue I brought up before about how you have made homeless people disappear and how you are using flat cameras to surveil us 24-7, those two things going together really present a very nasty picture of our city.

CHRIS RODGERS. Jim Dixon.

Hello, Jen Dixon again, twice in one day. Okay, a couple of things I want to know. Arlene, you had mentioned at the last meeting that you were sad that you didn't see many unhoused people here speaking. And I wanted to tell you, I think part of the reason that is, is they're afraid. The idea of having to stand up here to give your name and your address to have comments even for me as like a fairly intelligent functional human most of the time is it's terrifying. I have been watching city council meetings for a long time. I've only been to two. Get used to my face because you're going to see me weekly for as long as I can tolerate it. But so even for someone like me, it's really scary. But people who don't have an address to say it makes them a target. I've actually gone out to many of the homeless encampments and talked to people to ask them what their thoughts were and why they weren't showing up. And that's part of the answers that I got. The other is you can't get the bus here. Um, it's, you know, it's hard to be a non functional member of society and then participate in what is one of the most structured and challenging and affronting aspects of our society. So I just want to let you know they do wish they were here. I wish they were here too, but I wish they had the capacity to be here. So I hope you vote no on that ordinance. It's not fully thought out. The foundation isn't there. The structure isn't there yet. There are ways that you can deal with this. And if you can't support your own ordinances for plowing streets, I don't know how having an ordinance that can also be selectively enforced is a good idea. So I've got one minute left. The other thing I wanted to address is Connor Wood. Councilman, you responded after I mentioned last week that the change in year for the mayoral elections greatly impacts individual citizens' ability to actually do direct democracy. And I know that you're actually who originally proposed that, or at least you were directly involved. And I hear you in saying that it hasn't happened in 10 years, so you don't think it's a problem. I think that is the problem. If no citizen in Jackson in 10 years has been able to successfully do an initiative based on that citizen's drive, It's a problem. We should be able to actually be engaging in direct democracy. And if we don't address how that change is going to change the number of signatures required from 400 to potentially 1600 to 2500, you're going to make it that much harder for people to engage. And I hate to say it, but after watching how some of you have behaved over the last couple meetings, I'm shocked. And I wonder if you actually want people engaged. We take time to be here, and it's hard to be here. And I hope you want us involved as much as we want to be involved. Thank you.

Kathy Moore.

Good evening. Kathy Moore. I stay on the biggest dirt road street in the city of Jackson, which is MLK. Okay. I have complaints. Ms. Arlene, I could have brought it to you, but it encompasses more than just me. You have Bailey Construction, Dunningan, something like that, and Mercer. Millionaires off of the city. Okay. Bailey Construction has a truck sitting in front of my house that's been there for two months that does not work. but it's been sitting there for two months, okay? My road, street, whatever you wanna call it, has craters. The side streets have potholes. Where you have blacktop, that's potholes. Dirt road, craters, because they're big holes that your car goes in. In order for me to get into my driveway, I have to go over three speed bumps to get into my driveway. That's how raggedy they put the blacktop down. I did talk to them. And they said, oh, we're going to take care of it. But it didn't happen. Anyway, so then they tear up my grass, the green space that you want it. OK, they tore up the real grass and put down some of the raggediest seeds in the world. I tried to print out the pictures, but they wouldn't work. Weeds. Trees. I mean, all types of things in these seeds that is not grass that's in the front of my house now. And they did not level the dirt off. and it's not only my house, it's all the way up the street. It's any area on the south side that I've seen them tear up the sidewalk or tear up part of the grass. They put down those seeds and it's raggedy. They're giving us the cheapest of cheap when it comes to the seeds to replace our yards. They're not filling in holes. They're just dumping that crap down. And I think that it should be addressed. So I brought it to you. I didn't bring it to you. Miss Arlene, please forgive me. I wanted everybody to know about the problems that the south side is having. It's not only the south side, I believe it's anybody where they're putting down, they're taking up the real grass and putting down stuff. It's not, it's not grass. I had to pay somebody to cut that stuff down. And it grows real fast like it belongs in a swamp land. This stuff grows real fast. Pine trees, some kind of milky little thing, just all types of crap. So I wanted to say that. And I love coming here. I love coming here. I love it. Please, everybody, come. Come again. Come again. Come more.

okay council if you will please be sure to refresh your screens once you get set i'm looking for a motion to support on the consent calendar it's been moved and supported any discussion comments questions anything that we need to remove to vote on separately

I see the memorandum for the ordinances in there. Can we pull that and just make it part 9A?

Which item are we talking about? Item G. So item G, we will pull for separate consideration.

And just add it to 9B.

Wait, I don't understand. So we would just vote on it for a separate consideration. We'll still be able to have comments, Sonny. So we have a motion in support on the floor right with one item being requested to be pulled for a separate consideration, which is item G, correct? OK. Any other discussion? Anything else that we need to remove for a separate consideration? OK, seeing or hearing none, the clerk will tally and display the vote.

It's very fashionable. Sorry, I can't see.

Item passed unanimously and that brings us back to item G looking for a motion and support for the HRC memorandum on Proposed ordinance regarding personal property in public right-of-ways sidewalks and parks. Mr. Mayor moved to receive in place on file It's been moved and supported Discussion Just looking at the memo notice that I

Some of the areas were not completed. It's normally completed and separate in a memo random. So the issue statement described the consequences of ownership typically. CHRIS RODGERS.

Yeah, this just came. This is just a memo correspondence from the group. So it wouldn't follow the typical agenda item that a department head would do.

CHRISTIE WOOD. So we just needed the memo random and not this?

CHRIS RODGERS. Yeah, but this one is a new letter. That's all.

CHRISTIE WOOD. OK. CHRIS RODGERS.

Yep.

Any other questions, comments, concerns?

The HRC wanted to send you a letter regarding their thoughts on the proposed access property ordinance. So that's all you got is a letter signed by their chair. So that's all it was.

OK. Seeing or hearing no other questions, the clerk will tally and display the votes. OK. Item passes. That brings us down to item 9A. Looking for a motion and support to approve the second reading the final adoption of ordinance 2026 dash 03 amending chapter 17 of the city code to prohibit the storage of unattended and access prop personal property in the public right of ways, sidewalks and parks. It's been moved and supported questions, comments, concerns. Seeing or hearing none, the clerk will tally and display the vote. Item passes four to three. And that brings us down to item 10 a looking for a motion to support, to approve the contract award for the Ellis sharp park mountain bike. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I can't hear. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No, I wasn't asking what you were saying. I'm asking if you can just please leave. Please leave. Thank you. I am looking for a motion and support to approve the contract award for the Ellis Sharp Park Mountain Bike Trail Design and Construction to Rock Solid Trail Contracting of Copper Harbor, Michigan in the amount of $554,380. support it's been moved and supported any comments questions concerns seeing or hearing no comments or concerns on this particular item the clerk will tally and display the votes i think he does want to sign madam clerk that didn't pop up for me would you mind

Oh, I got it. Never mind.

Item pass is unanimous. That brings us down to item B. I'm looking for a motion and support to authorize the city of Jackson execute a memorandum of understanding with Jackson County to be in compliance with the Department of Justice and the Justice Assistance Grant and authorize the city manager to sign the necessary documents.

So moved.

It's been moved and supported. Any discussion? Seeing or hearing none, clerk will tally and display the vote. Item passes five to two. I am down to item C. I'm looking for a motion and support to approve budget amendment for Jack funds awarded by the Department of Justice. It's been moved and supported. Any discussion? Seeing or hearing none, the clerk will tally and display the vote. Item passes five to two. That brings us down to item D. I'm looking for a motion in support to approve first reading and advance to second reading. A proposed ordinance banning the installation and operation of virtual currency kiosks within the city of Jackson.

So moved. Second.

It's been moved and supported. Any discussion?

I do have a question, Mr. Mayor. I know that these kiosks have been used to exploit people. I know people firsthand who have been victims of fraud. I'm wondering if there are other purposes that that are useful to people, like sending out of the country or international. I know people oftentimes will send money back to loved ones in other parts of the world. Is this one way that those kiosks are used? Do we know?

As far as I know from the presentation, this is only just cryptocurrency, not traditional currency.

Okay. Thank you.

Seeing or hearing no other questions, the clerk will tally and display the vote. Adam passes unanimously. That brings us down to item E. Looking for a motion in support to approve the proposed workforce housing pilot resolutions and restrictive covenants for Swan Charlie Opportunity Zone Business LLC. and Echo Workforce Investments LLC for 10 new construction residential properties and authorize a city attorney to make any necessary minor modifications prior to signing and or recording. It's been moved and supported. Any questions, comments, concerns?

Yes, I have a couple of questions. Shane. So I guess my first question is, Swan, Charlie, and Echo Workforce, those are the investment companies, right?

That's a great question, Councilman Dancy. Those are Allen Edwin LLC. So it's Allen Edwin. It's not a separate builder.

Oh, that's not separate from Allen Edwards?

It's just a subcompany. They create for each of the projects an LLC for those companies.

So, no, they didn't do this when they bought the other lots, these lots, did they? Yes, they did. They used the same companies? Swan Bravo, Swan Rock. Okay, it's been a while. So has all our pilots always been, I thought, did we go up to 15 years?

Yes, we could go farther, but the statute for the 10-year for the infill housing for workforce housing is limited at 15 years.

Okay, so we did that with them last time, 15 years? Yes. Are there any other, other than Allen Edwards, are there any other companies out there we're looking at participating in this?

Any company could partake in the pilot program if they offered affordable housing, workforce housing at 120 AMIR less. There's no other builder currently active in pursuing that at this time.

Not to say you aren't trying to develop relationships and propose opportunities to different developers.

Don't put words in his mouth. Don't be putting words in his mouth.

I am putting words in his mouth because I know the work that he does.

He's being humble.

Shane works very hard to try to attract any developer that he can by showing the great opportunities that the city has.

Heard that before I've presented the same opportunity to every builder that we have most of them It restricts a little bit of how they structure their business plan offloading That asset they have to hold it for a certain amount of time there's other details within there that go along with reporting in And also the fact that these are for rent houses, these are not for sale. So not everybody wants to do a for sale new house.

So, yeah, with this pilot, it's just we're not collecting. It's not the normal taxes. It's just 10% of the rent of all 10 homes or 20 homes.

Every home will get 10% of the gross rents instead of ad valorem taxes. And then that savings is passed on to make it more affordable housing for the tenant.

Okay, let's just get more, some other contractors in this place. Yes, sir. That's all that I have.

Any other questions, comments, concerns?

Thank you, Shane. Thank you very much. Appreciate you.

Seeing or hearing none, the clerk will tally and display the vote. Item passes unanimously. That brings us down to item F. I'm looking for a motion in support for the submission of the 2025-2026 Annual HUD Performance Report. It's moved and supported. Any comments, questions, concerns? Seeing or hearing none, the clerk will tally and display the vote. Item passes unanimously. That brings us down to council member comments. I will start with Vice Mayor.

Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I appreciate you so much. So I thank you for coming out. I appreciate everyone for coming out and all the comments. I know I misspoke when I was talking about the public hearing. We already adopted agenda, but I would like to see something like that on the agenda to discuss that so we have a discussion on the time limit for public hearing. I think that would be something that we all would appreciate. We don't want to cut anyone off at a certain time, but I think at a reasonable time limit should be considered for public hearing. That way they have something they're talking about they want to discuss and have a lot of questions. We have more than ample enough time to answer those questions. So appreciate you. Thank you. Good night.

Thank you, Vice Mayor. Council Member Gunn.

Thank you, Mr. Mayor. First off, thank you for that proclamation. I'm very proud to say that I'm part of that migration pattern, having come from Texas, but anyway, through the migrant stream. So that was very something special and near and dear to my heart. The other thing too is, yeah, this thing about the time limits. I mean, I feel like also the rule about making it really clear how is this connected to the issue at hand and that not just taking the word of the person who's speaking that says, well, it's relevant because of this. There's so much in that discussion tonight that had nothing to do with just approving an evaluation and performance report and submitting it to HUD of things that have already occurred. So I think if we can also do a better job of enforcing those rules, I think that will help move conversations along. But yeah, I'm interested in having a discussion on how we can limit. At the same time, we don't want to penalize everybody for a handful of people who may abuse that process. Thank you.

Council Member Robinson.

Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I want to thank everyone for coming out tonight for our meeting. And as that's what I was trying to say, and sometimes what I think I'm saying may not always come out. I wasn't saying you couldn't name names, but it's repeating information that I think wasn't relevant to what the subject was at hand. Other than that, thank you, everybody, for coming out. And that's the end of my comments.

Council Member Forgrave.

Thanks, Mr. Mayor. Just wanted to say rest in peace to Wendell Berry. Passed away about a week ago. I actually was planning on reading one of his, he's a poet, environmentalist, farmer. I was planning on reading one of his poems into the public record, but about halfway through, comments I decided against that but I would recommend everybody look up some of this stuff um and particularly his poem do not be ashamed and think about flat cameras uh when you're reading it thanks councilmember Hunt I just want to thank everyone for coming tonight and for everyone's comments we are listening councilmember Wood

Thank you, Mr. Mayor, city staff, council, members of the public. Ms. Dixon, I'm sorry that I didn't immediately remember what you were talking about. When I made that face, I just hope you didn't think that I was blowing you off. and uh as to like initiative and referendum i think we just have a difference of opinion and that's fine um and to your point about um like do we appreciate when people come here i think i can speak at least for myself and i think for everybody else up here that yes is the answer particularly when uh the comments are on topic germane to the agenda substantive and not personal. My least favorite is when members of the public use citizen comment to engage in a live and in-person Facebook back and forth with each other. Short answer to your question is yes. I would like to see us maybe revisit this ordinance in a few months and see what changes we should make if we find that it's not working as intended or if it's having consequences that we don't want it to have. I think no ordinance is final. And I would also like to see us make voluntary storage available as an option for folks who want to take advantage of that. I suspect that there would be some who would want to take advantage of that. And I hope that and I don't expect that we will fill up all of our storage immediately because I don't think that's what the effect of the ordinance is going to be. But I have heard from some folks who would like to see that as an option. And I think it's something we should do. And speaking for myself, I strongly support red light cameras and speeding cameras so we can catch dangerous drivers. I think There are issues that we have as a city with people making incredibly dumb and incredibly dangerous decisions with you know, 2000, 3000 pound vehicles that I think could be prevented by that. But unfortunately we are not allowed to do that under state law. Um, so that's something that I hope gets changed. But right now it is the way that it is and people use their vehicles as weapons and don't think about the consequences of their actions on others. And I think that is deeply unfortunate. Thank you, Mr Mayor.

Thank you. Council member would, um, A couple of comments from myself. Putting an additional limit, like a higher limit on public hearings is higher for me for multiple reasons. I think, like I say, it's unfortunate when one person takes up so much time. like my theory is like, you're gonna run out of words before I run out of patients. I promise you in most cases, 90 98% of the time, um, uh, you're gonna run out of words before I run out of patients. Um, and I think that we have to just be cautious about, um, enacting something like an, an additional limit on public hearings, because there may come a time where we, need to make sure that we have that additional time for somebody because they're actually asking or like bringing something up that we need to be aware of and have a conversation about. Um, I think that there were several great points made, um, and some of the longer comments that we had tonight, um, that were, were useful, um, in our decision making process. Um, and it, and it can be hard, it can be tough. Um, but I, I'd rather, um, I'd rather us keep things personally. I would rather us keep things the same. And if we think we're suspect, it's going to be an issue that we make that decision prior to, um, prior to starting the comments. And that's the reason why I was a no vote on enacting the five minutes because we had already started. And so like if we said if we like if they had a pass, like at that point, what do we do? Do we say, oh, you way past five minutes. We got to cut you off now. I think if we are concerned with like time or we know we have sensitive issues on the on the agenda we should accommodate for that at the beginning because i i'm i'm okay with that um i do understand your point um council member wood that it it clearly states in there that during the public hearing we can enact a time limit to ensure that all speakers have the opportunity to speak and so i appreciated you offering that motion tonight and think that we should just take some time to think about it um The question was brought up, do we care? And I just want to sincerely say yes. Somebody else was like, hey, make sure you're paying attention. Just because I'm not directly looking at the speaker doesn't mean I'm not paying attention. And it's because I can't type and look up at the same time. Unfortunately, I've literally, um, try to paraphrase to the best of my ability. In most cases, I verbatim put what the comment is and I have for the last five years every public comment, um, good and bad about me about others. Doesn't matter. I put it in my notes so I can have record of what was said and who said it for my own personal use of making sure I stay on track with what our citizens are actually saying. I will say the top five most common fears and phobias that people have. The number one is public speaking. Number two is heights. Number three is spiders. Number four is snakes. Number five is flying. The only one that scares me is heights, but I still love roller coasters. So I commend anybody who comes in here and speaks. whether I agree or disagree with what they're saying, it is their right as a citizen in this community to come here and express what they want to express. So I encourage, like Miss Kathy said, come on, come on, please come more, come more, come more. In 84 days, I may or may not come just for the show also. man this next one is uh i'll save that um i do want to just give a shout out to to corey um and really for all the staff like a lot of times corey chief uh john troy um uh everybody on staff gets asked these questions on the cuff and like our expectation is have the answer please and we really appreciate when questions get asked off the cuff and you have the answers Like I love how prepared our staff is. Um, and in most cases are anticipating being asked questions. Um, I did want to clarify, um, on some, a comment that, uh, like a, um, public comment was emailed in and was not read that public comment was forwarded, um, to all of council. Uh, but I think that the. think there's a, um, and I would have to check to be sure. Um, but I think there is a like a misinterpretation of the timeline of when that changed. I know it happened prior to 2023. That was reelection year for me. It was after 2021 when I was initially elected. And so 2022 is when I feel like that change was made of us not reading public comments. And I think the biggest cause is because we got some pretty nasty public comments that our clerk was expected to read, which made a lot of people uncomfortable. And for a while, we were just having to suffer through those nasty comments being read. And so the decision was to go back to how it was prior to COVID. and public comments are not read out loud and would not have been mentioned if it was a public hearing. So I'm not sure if the comment was mentioned that, hey, a comment was emailed in by this person at this time. I can't recollect on that specific meeting. The comment was forwarded to all accounts at all, or the concern was forwarded to all accounts. I just wanted to acknowledge that. the clerk did for the comment to all accounts. Um, I just wanted to at least make sure I acknowledge that the last thing that I wanted to mention, um, I was working on it, but I'll be honest, it was really hard for me to finish it. Um, so I'm just gonna say it now. September is, uh, definitely Hispanic heritage month. Um, I'm so happy. that the Hispanic Heritage Festival is moving forward this year. Like, I'm really excited that we get to celebrate Hispanic Heritage Month here in Jackson again this year. In addition to it being Hispanic Heritage Month, September is also Suicide Prevention and Awareness Month. And so I just want to share with anybody who is struggling right now. This is not for those who aren't struggling. This is for those who are. If you don't know, there is a phone number that you can call if you don't feel like you have someone who you can reach out to. You can call 988 the same way you call 911. You can call 988 and you can get help and speak to somebody. We need you here today and tomorrow. I wish that in all the efforts that I've made, Over the last 10 years of being concerned about suicide, that I had to share that with my brother. But I didn't know and I wasn't able to. And his death has caused a lot of questions and grief in our entire family. It's one of the hardest things that I've ever had to deal with. And it's crazy because I feel like while it's been difficult, God prepared me for this moment in so many ways. Like, I don't know if you guys recall last year, maybe two years ago, that during September, so like, this is not a new fight for me. It's not because I'm personally impacted by it. But now I'm even more, even more positive that the work that I've done is important because like, when I invited the gentleman who's like going around and promoting for 988 to be put onto police cars so that people know that there's a resource out there. And all the experiences that I had when I was on the Lifeways board, the biggest thing that I paid attention to that I tried to learn about and that I was concerned about at that time was suicide. And that all stemmed from working at McDonald's, where brother and sister worked together every single day. They would work opposite shifts. And the brother would normally work in the morning, The sister would come in, they would have lunch together, and then the brother would go home. The sister would start her shift and work into the evening. And one day, everything was completely normal. He came in, her sister came in, they had lunch together. They said goodbye to each other. And later that evening, she left and she found her brother had committed suicide. And I think since then, suicide has been something that has just been very prevalent on my mind, that so many people struggle. And so again, I just want to encourage you to like, be here tomorrow, um, get through this moment. And if you feel like you can't get through this moment to call 9 8 8, because someone will talk to you and we'll help you. Uh, in addition on Saturday to Hispanic heritage month, there is a stump out suicide event going on from two o'clock to five o'clock at Cascades. That will conclude my comments tonight. Mr. City Manager. Nothing for me. Motion to adjourn. See y'all next month. Or in two weeks. Not next month.