City Council - Regular Meeting

check check check it is 6 30 p.m tuesday july 21st at this time i am calling our city council meeting to order we will start with pledge of allegiance and then invocation will be given immediately after by fifth ward council member shalonda hunt

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God and indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

Let us take a moment to reflect as we begin our meeting. Proverbs 3, 5 and 6 reads, trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge him and he will direct your path. Lord, may we be guided by wisdom, humility, and a sincere commitment to serve the people of our community. As we consider the important issue that we are facing today, remind us that behind every policy, every budget item, and every decision are human lives, each with inherent dignity, unique circumstances, and the hope for a better tomorrow. Grant us the ability to listen with open minds, speak with respect, and seek common ground, even when our perspectives differ. Help us balance compassion with responsibility, courage with prudence, and vision with practical action. May our discussions be thoughtful, our decisions be just, and our leadership reflect the trust our community has placed in us. Inspire us to pursue solutions that strengthen our city, support those in need, and foster safety, opportunity, and hope for all who call this community home. May we leave this meeting knowing we have served with integrity and acted for the common goal. Amen.

Thank you for the invocation. Madam clerk, if you'll proceed with the roll call, please.

Mayor Mahoney.

Present.

Council Member Robinson.

Present.

Vice Mayor Dancy.

Inside.

Council Member Gunn.

Present.

Council Member Wood.

Present.

Council Member Hunt. Present. Council Member Forgrave.

Present.

Sounds like we are all present and accounted for. And we will jump right in. We move some things around because I thought it would be important for us to have a presentation on what I'm assuming. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there's something else on the agenda that everybody came out to hear about tonight. Um, but I'm assuming everybody is interested in hearing about the ordinance. And so instead of having public comment first from citizens, uh, our next item is going to be first to adopt the agenda. Uh, and then we will move on to a presentation on the, uh, ordinance, uh, for chapter 17 around nuisances. So I'll just be looking for a motion support to adopt the agenda. It's been moved and supported any discussion deletions additions. Seeing or hearing none, clerk will tally and display the vote. I can try it again.

Hang on.

They registered that time. It was on both screens. Two screens open. We just gotta have a little patience. It's cold, it's been a month since we've used it. You re-scented already? I didn't get it that time. Anybody else get it?

I didn't get it. There we go.

Got it that time. Okay, agenda passes unanimously. That brings us down to item number five, presentations and proclamations. Item A, we have an ordinance presentation, chapter 17, nuisances. Mr. City Manager, you want to get us started on this one?

Yeah, thank you, Mr. Mayor. In anticipation of tonight and the attendance, City Attorney Matt Haggerty and I will go through the agenda item for new business, chapter 17, nuisances. matt i'm going to kick it off to you to get started to go over the nuts and bolts of the ordinance and then i'm going to bring up the city's web page dedicated to providing information on what is being proposed tonight before i do that though is there a kimberly mccainy here There's an ID found outside the door, so wanted to check and make sure.

Okay.

I'm going to hold onto this then. All right. I'm going to take this away, Matt.

Thanks. Can everybody hear me okay? Yep. All right. I see a lot of new faces in the chamber tonight. So appreciate everyone being here this evening. I know this is a topic of great concern to the community writ large. So I'm going to give you a brief overview of what is being proposed tonight as an amendment to Chapter 7. of our city code of ordinances, and obviously the chamber is full due to two real concerns, both of which deserve to be heard. The city is having a real honest conversation, sometimes difficult, about homelessness in our downtown. It's a conversation that starts from two things that are both true at once, and this ordinance is being offered for consideration tonight because neither one can be ignored. first downtown business owners shoppers employees and residents have raised real concerns and based upon what's on the agenda tonight uh your legislative body this this body city council has listened visible encampments and accumulated personal property in high traffic areas the carnegie library sidewalks parks near storefronts affect how downtown feels how safe it is perceived how welcoming it is to visitors and how easily people can simply walk shop or push a stroller through it businesses and residents have told the city this affects foot traffic and how customers and its visitors perceive downtown all those concerns are legitimate and the city has a responsibility to respond to them at the same time People experiencing homelessness in Jackson are our neighbors, and they deserve to be treated with respect and with dignity. Behind every tent and every pile of belongings is a human being, often someone dealing with a medical crisis, addiction, job loss, living with untreated mental illness, or simply priced out of a housing market that has too few affordable homes. Whatever the path that led someone to sleep outside, they do not forfeit their rights to fair treatment, due process, or basic human dignity. A city that responds to downtown concerns by quietly discarding someone's only belongings or by treating the unsheltered residents in our city as a problem to be moved along rather than people to be helped has failed just as surely as a city that ignores downtown's concerns entirely. So this ordinance is a good faith attempt to hold both of those truths at the same time, not to pick a side between downtown and the unhoused because both are part of the same community. so what does this proposed ordinance actually do first and foremost it regulates conduct not status this is not a specific ordinance driven towards our homeless population this applies across the board to any persons that would have personal property including tents and how they are stored on public rights of way sidewalks and parks in plain terms unattended or excess personal property. What can fit in a 32 gallon container with the lid closed left in public areas must be removed after notice and I'd repeat after notice and this is the due process part of it. It would be 24 hours in most of the city or as little as a two hour window within the downtown Development Authority District and we have a map of that that's available on the city website as formerly designated by city manager green. Tents require a permit to be set up in any public area. The permit process will be neutral and available to anyone. It will not and cannot be denied based upon who someone is or what message they carry. Unpermitted tents may be taken down, but the person's belongings must still be preserved and safely stored first. except for genuine hazards, trash, spoiled foods, biohazard material. Uh, the property will be removed and cataloged stored for up to 30 days and can be reclaimed for free with no ID required. A citation is optional. There is a $50 civil fine. It's not criminal. No one goes to jail for a violation of the ordinance and it's never mandatory, uh, police officers. And I've had this discussion with chief Simpson. Police officers who are the boots in the ground, the front line in enforcing this ordinance can choose a warning or a referral to outreach and shelter services or community partners that deal with a homeless space instead of a ticket and must document the reasoning either way. Suffice it to say, this is not intended to criminalize being unhoused or hit someone with a financial penalty we know they can't afford. Enforcement will be content neutral and status neutral. The same rules applied the same way regardless of who someone is or why their property is there. Going back to the concerns of everyone in this room and you could probably put a dividing line and there's the reason everyone's here tonight because no one here is wrong. Everyone has an opinion and perspective and I'm anxious, I know council's anxious to hear what you have to say, but for the downtown and business community, Let's clear sidewalks, parks, rights of way and storefront areas, restore predictable, walkable public space. It gives the city a lawful and consistent process to respond to the specific encampments driving the complaints rather than no process at all, which we currently don't have on the books. It creates a faster two hour notice option in our downtown for the busiest blocks where accumulation has the most visible impact as evidenced by the encampment of the Carnegie Library. Again, it requires a permit for tents and public areas addressing the single most visible driver of downtown complaints for our unsheltered neighbors. It guarantees advanced notice before anything is removed with narrow, clearly defined exceptions. Again, it requires their belongings to be safely stored and returned for free with no idea required. Nothing is simply thrown away other than the aforementioned biohazards or food waste. The same two hour standard is even handedly applied to anyone in the area. It's not aimed at any one person or an encampment. And we have a permit process that will be content neutral and open to anyone and requires belongings from a tent to be preserved even when the tent itself is removed. For the business owners and downtown residents, it will give officers clear authority to act on obstruction, safety and accessibility problems for ADA compliance and for our Our homeless friends, it gives those same officers the discretion to choose a warning or a service referral over a citation. Compassion is built in to the enforcement. It's not an exception to it. Finally, what this ordinance does not do. It does not criminalize being homeless. There's no penalty anywhere in the ordinance for the status of lacking housing and certainly no criminal penalty. It does not ban sleeping, sitting, or resting in public. Someone without a tent is not in violation of the ordinance simply for being outside. It does not authorize belongings to be destroyed on site, again, except for genuine hazards. There is no requirement for an officer to issue a citation. And lastly, as we all know, because Jackson is not unique, you can go to any midsize Midwestern community here in Michigan, East Coast, West Coast, every community deals with this problem. And how do we deal with it compassionately, with proper legal authority, and having everyone's rights, everyone in this room who has an opinion, having all their rights recognized and heard? So it manages public spaces responsibly and the city and I know Mr Green has had these discussions with our community partners and their separate work and shelter and housing that will continue. Finally, a well managed and welcoming downtown and a compassionate response to homelessness are not competing goals. Everyone up here on this dais is committed to both in this ordinance is written as a tool to provide that Jackson can do both at once. Thank you Mr Mayor.

Thank you, Matt. There's some nuts and bolts and some operational aspects of the ordinance that come into play if passed tonight. Matt did a great job. saying more eloquently than i have been able to so far about trying to strike the balance between everything that we need to do and everyone's rights um we uh as a council have been working on this issue for a number of years and had a good sense that this council would not support anything that was injurious to people and their belongings without having an alternative. So did some research, had some research sent to us from people in the community. And there's a model out there where people's belongings have been stored in these situations where they do have excess personal property. We looked at examples out of state and in state. And so to make sure that this council understood that this wasn't a carte blanche throwing of people's belongings away, You can see in the ordinance we'll store safely and securely for up to 30 days. And the way we're doing that right now um absent of any meeting in any direction uh before this had to make some judgment calls and figure out a good way to do this there's a whole bunch of different ways to store stuff lockers storage rooms things like that but we've uh we've acquired um two steel shipping containers they're 20 feet long eight feet tall and we have built them out to have cubbies them a hallway and cubbies with shelves and carts that can be wheeled in and out the current location contemplated right now would be the city parking lot behind and age myself and they have to make the right reference in the room behind the old Wendy's or behind the old Dallenbergers back there it's well lit it's secure it's close-ish to downtown it's underneath lights and barring any other community partner who'd want to step up and help with this which is totally welcome and open to this is what we're doing right now We have not spent much on this. I had a question on that earlier, so I'll just say it right now. We're all in for the stuff we purchased for less than $5,000. And I made the choice that I made to use this option instead of waiting for lockers or storage things that are made for, specifically made for this, one, we couldn't wait that long, and two, if there was no take rate on this, and that's, I think, a fair concern that this could do all this and no one will utilize it. we can reposition those things for our own needs and you know not waste resources matt did a good job explaining how these things would be approached on the street we'll be approaching this with a a significant amount of compassion understanding that who we're dealing with what they have is who they are and all they have This solution is not meant to address the bigger overarching issues we all face. This is to balance the interests of the neighborhood. We have a lot to consider, and the city attorney made some very good points on that. I'm open to answer any questions council has on the nuts and bolts of how we would do this, Um, currently contemplated, that's what we're thinking. Um, the hours of access would be while the city is operating, especially in the beginning, we would have very robust hours to start with to make sure we, we, we, uh, made accommodations for as many people as we could to store their stuff. going forward we'd have to monitor it we'd have to see how much this is being used if it's being used when it's being used to make those decisions and like I said before always open to a community partner on this situation so with that mr. mayor I'll open myself Matt to any questions that council would have council what questions do you guys have for

city manager or city attorney.

Jonathan, can you please provide to the community, you said, hours of access, pretty robust? Can you give clear timelines?

Yeah, officially it would be 7 a.m. to 5 p.m. Officially. We do end up coming to work early at DPW and do end up staying late. So if someone's around, of course, we'll make it available. But officially, 7A to 5B. Monday through Friday. Monday through Friday, as of right now.

For our individuals that are experiencing homelessness that do not have an ID, what is our recourse for handling that situation?

We'd have to work through that. But I know there's some ID has been bantied about.

The ordinance has contemplated that no ID would be required. In practical terms, if they come up to the shipping containers that Mr. Green just alluded to, hey, I have an orange backpack with a blue handle. It's got X amount of property in it or something, something is identifiable, we simply give it back to them. Simple as that. Now, if there's an issue that arises with people going in there and trying to take items that are not theirs, you know, we can, we'll have a process for, you know, if someone's just in there saying, I want to start taking items. But it's really the honor system. I mean, we're not going to, this isn't a double check for, three forms of ID to get personal property that may be their only possessions. So right now it's contemplated as no ID being required.

And one of the ideas we had internally, too, was just to take a picture of the person and hang that at the cubby so it's easy as that. This person looks like that picture. It's your stuff. It could be that simple.

The 32 gallons, which is like a cubic yard, basically, is that... uh like i does it say that i'm staying in a tent i can keep okay so it's one of those okay um so that is how much i can have before the rest would be stored or that is how much the city would store the former so you could have up to 32 gallons of personal property with the lid closed that would not be violative of the ordinance now if you

Leave it unattended. It could be tagged and after 24 hours potentially stored regardless as to size if it's just sitting there out in the street. But you could have up to that amount of property on your person and that would not violate the ordinance. Now if you've got a variety of other items, a mattress, pick anything you could think of that wouldn't physically fit in there, that would That would be what's referred to in the ordinance as excess personal property. There would be a notice given if the person is in possession of it and is physically there. They would receive the ticket with a notice. They would then, in the DDA district, have two hours to remove the excess personal property. And it would be stored at no cost. And it would be then removed if

We're working on the audio as best we can.

And we'll try to speak into the microphone as best as possible. So let's get a little closer to the mic.

Can you hear me OK now? Yeah. All right. Apologies. So again, in sum, if it fits inside of that container, it would not run afoul of the ordinance. We're only dealing with personal property that does not fit in that 32-gallon bin with the lid closed.

And then if I have property over that, does the standard backpack size, the essential personal property, is that included in that? Or I can have one of those plus the backpack amount of stuff?

So that's a great question. If the backpack is on your person, lots of people travel with backpacks, I think in some regard, it has to be a bit of a judgment call. If someone has a backpack on their person, that's also referred to as essential personal property. If you've got your ID, medication, other items that are of more significant importance, those get treated with a higher level of care in terms of what's removed. Again, if it's on your person you're carrying it versus it's sitting on the ground and doesn't fit in the container and you have a bunch of other items that exceed that 32 gallon, you know, you may have to stick the backpack in a container that size. Again, if you have it on your person, you're walking around and you've got the backpack on your back, I don't think that's going to be an issue.

And it's the access beyond all that stuff that would be that would that would trigger the storage situation. That's correct. And the storage cubbies are presumably of a decent size, I would think.

Yeah, and we'll flex. And if someone needs more than one cubby, then they get more cubbies. And if we end up needing another shipping container and build it out, then we do that too. Like I said, we're all in right now for less than $5,000. We're going to be okay.

Thank you.

Sorry.

You're correct. Tents aren't going to fit in there. Not likely.

I guess it depends on the size of the tent.

How it breaks down and all that good stuff.

That's a great question, Councilwoman Gunn. So if it breaks down and fits inside of the container, you could have a tent, not an erected tent, but you could have a tent that fits inside of the container. Separately, the ordinance specifically addresses tents themselves, so the type of encampment now that's in front of the Carnegie Library, an actual tent that you would sleep in, those are not permitted on any portion of public property. And that includes rights of way, sidewalks, parks, buildings, and it can't be affixed to any portion of any public property either. So you can't have anything attaching a string or a bungee or a rope, chains, et cetera, that are attached or affixed to public property. One other caveat based on Council Councilman Woods inquiry we can also remove property that immediately that is in either blocking a fire hydrant for example or blocking an ada compliant pathway so our handicapped friends and neighbors can get through the areas so if you have a tent that's erected on any property that would be violative of the ordinance but if you store it within a 32 gallon container and take it with you That's permissible. You just can't erect the tent and utilize it on public property.

And so we're okay with people sleeping in the park benches, being downtown, as long as they have a container like that with their stuff in it and they don't pitch a tent.

The short answer is yes. We're not looking to criminalize or send tickets to someone who is sleeping in the street that doesn't otherwise have housing. We would hope that our community neighbors would reach out to those folks and give them the necessary resources. But we're not looking to criminalize simply being outside, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, sleeping, taking a nap, sitting in park property. That would not be penalized under the ordinance. It's really dealing with, again,

conduct not status and the amount of stuff you physically have on your person as opposed to what you're doing i have a follow-up question to that if i'm allowed mr to your answer matt is that even legal to not allow someone to be sitting or sleeping on a park bench

So that's a great question that probably would take a much longer legal answer than we have time for this evening. But I will say, generally speaking, people have the right of assembly. We've got our constitutional amendments, right? So, again, the 14th Amendment, your procedural and substantive due process, your Fourth Amendment right against search and seizure, your Eighth Amendment against cruel and unusual punishment, your First Amendment right of assembly. So all those have to be looked at in the aggregate when we look at ordinances like this. And as a city, I think the way this was drafted to make the collective decision not to criminalize and penalize someone for simply being outside and being unhoused if they don't have any other options. We're dealing with the accumulated stuff and not the person. We really want to hopefully hear a dialogue here this evening that addresses how we best help those individuals while again balancing the rights of everyone in this room and everyone who lives in our city to utilize the downtown in a safe and fair manner.

So then what we're just trying to do is take down the encampment, basically.

We're trying to deal with excess property. Yep. And camping is a part of that. Yep.

So I get that part of it. I just want to make sure that I'm clear what we're trying to do with this ordinance. So then people who are currently unhoused, who are sleeping in tents, just don't have any place to sleep.

yeah they would not be sleeping they would not be sleeping in a tent that's correct on on public property on public that's the thing on public property okay i i have another question if councilmember gunn is yeah finished um so i'm uh staying for the sake of example outside the library i'm sleeping in a tent I've got about that much stuff in my tent. I've got a backpack with my medication and ID and stuff in it. And I have a bike that I ride to work. Does my bike get counted toward my 30? My bike doesn't disassemble and fit into that. I would think that. Your answer is probably going to be it's up to the discretion of the person who's enforcing the ordinance. But is that contemplated, I guess? Because I think we don't want to get into a situation where we're preventing people from being able to get to work by impounding a bicycle.

Great question. And so the first part of your statement is correct. If an officer is out there, If the officer is out there and sees the fact that they're told that this is their only means of transportation, there is a specific exemption in the ordinance for mobility devices, anyone's wheelchair, self-propelled or electric and we're not going to take anyone's mode of transportation from them and there's bike racks and other things there so that's a great question but i think logically if this is someone's means of getting around town we're not looking to take their bike and then having them go to dpw to retrieve it thank you i had looked for bicycles but it's under mobility devices so that's more general thank you mr attorney

So, Mr. Mayor, is that okay for me? A person could have the 32 gallon on the street, but any excess is going to be taken down to DBW?

So, no one's going to be given that tub. I needed to understand what 32 gallons looked like. I can picture someone holding, well, you can't hold 32 gallons of milk, but I can visualize that. I couldn't visualize what does 32 gallons of stuff look like. And I didn't think we as a council would necessarily understand that. So are those tubs going to be issued to people? No. Will we possibly use something like that as a measuring tool? For sure, to make sure we're acting appropriately, not citing people who don't need to be cited. And then people who get creative with storing stuff and packaging it away tightly and nicely. We don't want to do anything to hurt them. So no one's going to get a tote, but we needed to have like a visual representation of how much stuff we're actually looking at. And so you're looking at like a backpack, maybe another bag and some other stuff. But, you know. But that. But that. That's it.

is what they can have on their person. And anything over there like the mattress or all these other things would be taken to DPW for. Correct. Okay. I too imagine milk, but I went and Googled it and I got garbage can for 32 gallon garbage cans. So it wasn't like that, but I'm sure they hold the same capacity. Could I also ask about the two-hour rule? I guess I missed that along the way in reading the information we had. That is in the DDA district?

It is, Councilman Robinson. So the way this is working, I maybe should have mentioned this at the outset. So what's being proposed tonight, as council is aware, is an emergency ordinance that takes six of seven council members to vote in the affirmative to adopt it as an emergency ordinance. Practically speaking, under section 9.6 of the city charter, it goes into effect when the ordinance is published. I've spoken with Clerk Murray. So as a practical matter, if the ordinance is adopted this evening, It's probably going to go into effect sometime in the late morning or early afternoon this Thursday. So that's when it is actually going to be on the books. I'm sorry, your other question was? The two hour rule. So the ordinance further contemplates that by administrative regulation, Manager Green, if it's adopted, would execute an administrative regulation authorizing a two hour removal window as opposed to 24 hours within the DDA district. And there's a map on the city website of what that district is. So the high traffic areas in the downtown would have a no less than two-hour notice requirement before property potentially would be removed.

And then just to clarify, after 30 days, then that's when people's property is going to be destroyed or whatever it is that you take the next step?

Correct.

Yeah, we would probably I don't want to promise us because I don't can't say what happened every time. But, like, in the community that we're talking about with the stakeholders that have been involved in this, we're not seeing somebody for a while. 15 days kind of had a halfway point. We start asking questions. Who has anybody seen this person? let's let's make sure they're still around let's make sure they still want this and then get to the 30 days we'll do the same thing like who who do we know who's out there working in the space can we find this person can they be communicated to them like the stuff's going to be thrown away nobody we don't we don't want to throw anybody's stuff away doesn't have to be thrown away and if we have to go and stretch ourselves a little bit to find somebody then we'll do that but when we can't then we'll have to do that let's throw it away

Here's one other practical aspect I think is worth mentioning, and I actually had this conversation with Deputy Chief Police Chief Garcia, which is if the officers are the first responders on scene dealing with excess personal property, they encounter a resident, they're going to activate their body cameras. And those are great, one, because it actually has a visible representation of what was physically taken, with whom they're interacting. So again, to my example of I have an orange backpack with a blue strap, well, we can go back to the footage potentially. And it'll all be inventoried. and line itemed when the specific individual or individuals received notice of removal, but that's something worth mentioning that Chief Simpson can largely speak to better than I as, you know, the CEO of his department, so to speak, that the officers out there do a great job, and a lot of them know these people that are out there right now and have interacted with them, and so Jonathan's precisely correct that we want to take a kinder, gentler approach to this and hopefully through education and understanding what this ordinance is and isn't, we can get those people to voluntarily comply as well. But we'll have a way to track it both in a written form as well as the visual body cam evidence as well.

Okay, so I have just a couple more follow-up questions. You triggered something for me. So even though the ordinance reads unattended, it's really unattended or if you have more than 32 gallons. So it's unattended and attended.

It absolutely is and that's specified in the ordinance, correct.

Okay.

Yes.

And then what does it cost for a tent permit? And where would you pitch a tent with a tent permit?

That's a great question. It's likely going to be subject to our special event application process. So the mayor asked an example. The Boy Scouts want to set up tents for a particular event they're having or anyone else in the community. If you would file a permit and you would either do that through a special event application. Don't quote me on the, unless Manager Green knows what the the application fee is, but you pay that application fee.

Oh, it varies. Yeah, I've seen them. It's been zero to like up to 150.

Correct. So we look at that in terms of what the Impacts to city staff and resources are and judge that accordingly, but it wouldn't be any more or less than any other event where someone would want to erect tents for a variety of Public purposes in the public square.

So then if it goes that route, it's also a short term, right? I

That's correct. It would be subject just like we have block party permits or other things like that that have specified hours or like any civic event application that's got it's going to be from 10 a.m. to 6 p.m. on a Saturday when it's over with the items will be removed.

Thank you.

So the The ordinance applies, as I understand it, to public areas, which is basically defined as city property, which includes parks, but sidewalks, streets. I'm thinking of some of our social service organization partners in the community who do have property. Is something that would stop, for example, our friends at RIA from saying, this is a place that people can put up tents? Or is that a question for, like, we'd have to look at our other ordinances, and does that count as a structure or something like that?

i think it's really the former because that's gonna trigger zoning ordinance compliance and this is only contemplated as you just said on city-owned property so this literally in this building outside of the building rights of way parks sidewalks anything that the city owns lots of our outlets that that we take back through the county, through the foreclosure process, anything that we own, but it would not apply to, for example, it would not apply to the library property. It would not apply to REIA, and we'd have a separate set of ordinances that would regulate, that's on the books now under our zoning code, that would regulate what they can and can't do.

Because that is their property as distinct from ours, and so it's private rather than public.

That's correct, or in the case of the library.

It's public but owned not by us, so it's not public under the ordinance. Correct. Yeah, thank you.

Council, what other questions do you have?

While you're thinking about it, I just want to say thank you to Attorney Haggerty for spending almost three hours with me on all the questions that I had and concerns that I had about the ordinance and being able to clarify it in some areas that I had questions. And for all the diligence that you put in this, I really think that you've covered a wide variety of the bases that we would have to be concerned about. Um, I, I did direct someone to call you with the questions that they had because they started mentioning, Hey, the city is going to get a lawsuit for this. Um, do you suspect that we are like legally covered to enforce this?

great and loaded question because you're asking an attorney so the short answer is there are no guarantees in the law anyone can sue anyone or anything for for anything i i'm confident that that on its face the ordinance is facially valid the proverbial doubles in the details and how we enforce it right and that's through education we've had these internal discussions with city staff and how we operationally do it we're looking to give everyone the maximum amount of due process and make sure that all of their rights are taken into consideration in this ordinance. And so it's modeled to some extent as to what Grand Rapids has done in terms of storage of personal property. There's other communities that have anti-camping ordinances that are on the books. Kalamazoo is one example. And so we're trying to, again, thread that needle between the balance of making this a safe, welcoming environment for everybody and then also making sure that we treat everyone with dignity and respect. And threading that needle is not always easy. And I've had those discussions, earnest and honest discussions with a variety of community stakeholders and people that in this room, as we'll see at the call of the public, have differing opinions on it. But I do believe, post the US Supreme Court's Grants Pass decision in 2024, that facially, this would be legally valid.

Council, what other questions do you have? Okay. We will move forward. If you will refresh your screens so that your voting apparatuses are working correctly. Actually, I don't think you'll have to right now. However, so we have no public hearing. Thank you so much, Matt, and Mr. City Manager, for starting us off with a presentation and hopefully getting at least some initial questions from council out of the way on this particular issue we will move forward we have no public hearings at this time our next item on the agenda is citizens comment and i will start how we always start with reading the rules for speaking before the city council during the citizen comment portion of the meeting um First of all, thank you for being so concerned about such a serious issue and for being here. The rules are simple. Number one, each speaker, each speaker will state their name and address prior to addressing council. Number two, each speaker is limited to up to three minutes during the citizen comment portion of the meeting. Council members will not debate or answer questions at this time. suggestion if you have a question state that question it is very likely that someone on council as you saw earlier will reiterate that question during the citizen comment portion of the meeting we do not answer questions or debate during that time it's your three minutes if you've got questions again i document every citizen comment good and bad every single one and so if you have a question ask that question and hopefully a council person will take that question up for you otherwise you'd have to wait until after the meeting is over if you want to have a conversation or you interested in debating somebody about it number three each speaker should be polite and courteous to the council and the members of the public in attendance while any speaker is free to express his or her opinion on any subject No speaker may direct personal attacks at any member of the staff or council unrelated to the manner in which they perform their duties, use obscene language while addressing the city council, or engage in disruptive or disorderly behavior during a council meeting. Number four, should any speaker cause a breach of the peace through their conduct, the mayor may declare the speaker out of order. Number five, if a speaker is declared out of order by the mayor, and refuses to cease and desist from disruptive or disorderly conduct, the mayor may order the person removed from the meeting. Number six, each speaker may speak once under public comment and may not yield their time to others. Laura Schlechte.

All right, Laura Schlechte, 759 West Michigan Avenue. Your time is wrong because it says, okay. Wow. How many, here's a question for you guys to contemplate. How many staff people are going to be added as a result of this ordinance? When I was on city council, we worked hard to improve downtown to attract businesses, residents, investment, and visitors. As a result of the homelessness and your parking restrictions, businesses are leaving, buildings are difficult to sell, and many people no longer feel safe or comfortable visiting downtown or using the library. The proposed ordinance creates procedures for removing, documenting, transporting, storing belongings left in public spaces, but that's not a solution. the city will use police officers public works employees vehicles storage space and taxpayer dollars to inventory and impound these belongings the encampment may then simply move to another place employees handling these items could be exposed to drugs needles human feces animals and contaminated material why would you put our employees through that when you already have another solution or another option exists Jackson invested we invested 1 million dollars in the TA Wilson building plus the pallet shelters and Related emergency shelter efforts the city then sold TA to residents and actions for a hundred and fifty thousand dollars and that purchase agreement requires TA Wilson to operate as a homeless shelter Why are we spending city resources in pounding belongings while a facility contractually required to operate as a homeless shelter is not being used for that purpose. Work with residents in action to open TA Wilson, relocate the encampment there, then enforce the ordinances that are already on the books. Place the pallet shelters there and create a controlled location where our service providers can connect with these individuals about mental health and substance abuse and anything that they may need. If residents in action cannot or will not operate TA Wilson as required, enforce the purchase agreement. The city readily enforces ordinances against landlords and homeowners. If an unlicensed vehicle or too many trailers are in a parking lot or overgrown grass or items marked free in the right-of-way, they're ticketed. They're warned. Stop using a revised or new ordinance to kick this problem down the road. You've done it with our roads and other important issues. There are serious problems. Let's deal with it now. You have the authority to act. You have the ordinance to enforce. You have approximately $1 million invested in a facility contractually required to operate as a homeless shelter. The people of Jackson do not need another excuse or delay. We need leadership, accountability, and action now. Open T.A. Wilson. relocate the encampment, enforce the ordinances already on the books, and restore order to our downtown. And take away the stupid parking signs that encourage people to not stay downtown and shop.

Mr. Mayor, I can anticipate that we're probably going to have a lot of people who are agreeing or perhaps disagreeing.

Should we hold all applause until the end?

Just in the interest of time, I think that what has historically been helpful in our higher interest council meetings is if people agree with the speaker, just do a thumbs up. If you disagree with the speaker, do a thumbs down. And that way, things can proceed a little bit faster.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Listen. Listen. Listen. Listen. Listen. The one thing we are going to do, the one thing we are going to do is we're going to stay in order. I didn't ask you a question. I didn't ask you a question, candidate for mayor. I didn't ask you a question. I don't care if people applaud if they're happy about it. I don't know how anybody else in council feels if they want to applaud. every time. I'm here for, I'm here for the long haul. I'm sorry, sir, are you Phil? We're going to call everybody by name. Did you fill out one of these slips for us?

No, I didn't.

I didn't know I was supposed to. But I'm going to speak anyway, okay? So, I'm sorry, give me just a second. I'm getting ready to talk, if you don't mind. My name is Marvin Powell. I'm sorry, give me just a second. Give me just a second. Yeah. We would like to hear him. You don't hear me. And I'm sure you would like to hear him also. Sir, when you get done, I need you to fill one of these out. I can do that. Okay, thank you. But this is my first time here. I understand. You got three minutes. I understand. You proceed. That's okay. I understand. We got it. We got it. If anybody else needs one, someone from staff will get one of these ready. If you need one, and you don't have one, they should be located near the door at some point soon. Yes, can y'all hear me? Hang on, can you hear me now? JTV, can y'all turn my mic up in the back? I'm used to this, y'all, don't worry. Turn my mic up a little bit. Check, check, can y'all hear me better now? I don't know if you turned it up or not, but sometimes I just make you feel like you can hear more. Let's just stay in order, okay? That's all I ask. This is a hot button issue for everybody. I'm just asking for everybody to stay in order, please. Sir, if you'll proceed, just start with your name for us. When you get done, somebody will find you with one of those slips. Anybody else who doesn't have one, when they come and find this gentleman, hopefully they'll have a few extras. You can grab one from them, or they're already by the door, it sounds like. Please proceed, sir.

Okay, thank you, Mayor. My name is Marvin Powell. and i reside at uh uh 214 south jackson street apartment 324 that's in the albert khan apartments and on july 9th in the afternoon probably about 2 p.m i was uh sitting outside on my walker just enjoying the breeze and uh i was attacked by a vagrant person They came from up where that hobo encampment is. You call it homeless, I call it hobo. And I wasn't seriously injured by the guy. I fought him off and then I called 911 and gave them a description and they found him up at the hobo camp. So my hat goes off to the Jackson Police Department, especially Officer Stallworth. He came and assisted me in every way he could. And through the weekend, it bared really heavy on me being assaulted. I'm 77 years old and I'm disabled, as you can see. And Officer Stallworth got back with me Monday and I was in a bad state of mind. I wanted to hurt somebody. And he helped me get up to a life ways and they really helped me. They talked me down. OK, now I guess my elected representative is this lady here. I called you. On the 12th of July, I guess you were big time and in Canada from what you told me. And you said you'd call me back. The day is the 21st. I ain't heard nothing from you yet. Now, when you got elected, matter of fact, I voted for you too. And you know, when you got elected, you took a oath. All of you took a oath when you got elected. And you ought to live up to it. You know, you're supposed to represent the people here in Jackson and do what you can to make life easier and better. And why not do it? Not getting back to people is not helping things. You know? And I listen to your prayer. I'm not impressed by it. Because you, you know, live what you talk about. See, you talked about what Jesus did and this and that. Follow Jesus. Act like Jesus. Call me back. I'm older than your parents are.

Thank you, Mr. Powell. You're three minutes.

Okay, thank you. But all of you.

Timothy Travis. Timothy Travis.

Hello everybody here and folks of the council. My name is Timothy James Travis. I live at 720 West Michigan. Those are the Renaissance Apartments. Very prestigious, top notch. And I gotta tell you that like a lot of people here, I'm just a couple of bad mistakes or whether they're my own or someone else's. I might be joining them people out in front of the library. And if any of us want to be truthful, I think that it's a lot more of us than anyone's willing to admit. That being said, whenever we want to start a new war, the money's always there. But when it comes to sending the money down the street, empty pockets now i wish that some of this magic money would come to helping people giving them jobs and meaningful jobs jobs that aren't going to get replaced by ai jobs that aren't going to get gutted by corporate raiders because companies nowadays are more incentivized to fail the big ones and then just leave everyone else because the ceo got his we're talking about personal property here Garrett Langley owns Flock Cameras, and those came into town without any of us really wanting them. And not an issue there, but some people, due to whatever circumstances, whether it's their fault or not, human beings, by the way, if they were in homes, we'd be calling over our neighbors. That being said, I didn't want them flat cameras here, but I do want to make sure that my neighbors, those people out there that we're so comfortably talking about in a building protected by the element, from the elements. By the way, how's the air quality? But anyways. They deserve that. Everybody deserves that. This has gone on long enough. I graduated in 2008. We all know what was happening there. There have been over 20 major bailouts, and every time it goes to the same group of people. How's everyone doing since 2008? And also, we got people that still aren't even paying back their PPP loans since 2020, but they'd rather just put up ghost jobs and do stock buybacks so that on paper it looks like they have more money. But yet, since 2008, I've only seen more encampments like that grow. I think enough's enough. We need to start looking at problems before they're on our doorstep and before we're all looking behind our back at the problem that's coming for us and seeing the victims of that problem left unattended. I want to believe in this community, but if we're going to do that when you fail, what community are we?

Phil. Phil, no last name. Phil. Phil, what's your last name, please? Berkmeyer. Berkmeyer.

Thank you. I reside at 1000 South Thompson Street. I'm a regular patron of the downtown library and what I've seen there in recent months is just appalling. My wife and I go there on occasions and people will be in camp there arguing, fighting with each other, playing loud music. Yesterday I stopped at the library to look up the ordinances to see what ordinances we do have. I don't think we got adequate ordinances right now Laura and I believe the ordinance that's being proposed is appropriate and it's good and it should be supported. Yesterday when I left the library I walked around to the back parking area where we parked and there was a cop car from Chelsea dropping off the homeless person with lots of stuff. And somebody was addressing them saying, this isn't a homeless shelter. You shouldn't be dropping her here. Please take her back to Chelsea. And the person that was being dropped off got very upset, screaming, using the F word. Very unpleasant situation right in the middle of our downtown. We've been there when we come out and there's loud music playing with lots of F words in it and vulgar language. It's just a terrible situation. What I like about this ordinance is it can go on the books tomorrow, can be enforced Thursday, and it's a good start. But in reviewing the ordinances, I'd like to point out a couple other things. We have an ordinance, 18109, which has to do with nuisance gatherings. Unfortunately, it only applies to parking lots. If it applied to other public places, it would be adequate to address these kind of problems with another way. Another thing I like what was mentioned about the anti-camping ordinance in another community, whether it was Kalamazoo or Grand Rapids, I don't remember. But if we had such an ordinance, What I foresee could happen with the present one that's being proposed tonight, and hopefully voted and approved, is that persons with still quite an accumulation of property, whether they have a tenant or not, could just start sleeping anywhere in a public place. And maybe sooner or later there would be another or two more or a few more. And because they don't have a whole lot of stuff, it would be a way for a problem to continue. So I'm for the ordinance. It's a big problem. It needs to be addressed now sooner than later. Whatever's happened to the Wilson School project, it's very unfortunate. Nothing more has developed out of that. And I don't know who's to blame or where the blame lies, but that is a big miss for the city. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Berkman.

Ariel Matrine. Hey.

good evening city council thank you so much for hearing us all out tonight my name is ariel maturin i've been a citizen of jackson my entire life and i have the great pleasure during my nine to five to work with a lot of of our citizens who unfortunately are also unhoused or dealing with doubling up in all the ways that even the federal government has now recognized homelessness um in saying in that whether regardless of what happens tonight citizen comments it has brought the attention to a systemic problem to the city's attention and hopefully to all the partners that work with the city and receive funding by the city as well It is not an easy job to be elected and sit in your guys' seats. And I think it takes a lot of respect. And that is why, to me, my citizen duty to vote is so important, not only at the city level, at the state level, and of course, at the federal level as well. From what I've seen in my role in my day today is that this problem has occurred because funding from the top down has decreased year after year after year. There is less and less supports for all of the great people who do great work in the city and have organizations and nonprofits to be able to support our citizens in a way that truly matters. I also can tell you that I don't know about you guys but every time I go to the grocery store I feel like I cry a little bit even though I spent hours budgeting in order to be able to do so. I have an amount of respect for those who are doing the difficult duty of sleeping outside and I try everything in my power to not do that but I know as another citizen came up here and said that I'm also not far away. And that is not something that you as a city council can fix today in a year or even five years. This is something that is a huge problem. And I think that it will take everyone collectively. This ordinance, yes, would block things from city property. But there are plenty of personal properties. There are plenty of homeowners in the area that could allow things, depending on what the zoning codes is. I don't know those. I don't own a home. That's not going to be my legacy. So that being said, I just wanted to say here tonight that this is a systemic problem and that these are things that not one thing can address. This is just one in many and getting a home and getting an apartment is about having enough money to afford your down deposit, your monthly rent, furniture, food, electricity, water, gas, trash, and all of those other things. All of those have to be addressed and it's collective issue in order to be addressed for everyone. So thank you so much for your time tonight. I hope you guys have a good night.

John C. King.

Thank you, Mr. Mayor. John King, 203 3rd Street here in the city, a couple blocks down from the encampment. What I'll do, I sent the council an email, and I'll kind of read some of it and some other points I put. It was a long one. So it started off, the most important thing regarding the issue of so-called homelessness, the encampment in front of the library, and how the city deals with them is truth. As we all know, the truth is they aren't really homeless. I use the term so-called homeless because as we should all know, the people downtown and around the city have illegal drug and liquor problems along with mental health issues. It's that way nationally too. Since the encampment has grown, library staff has had to clean up needles, syringes, and feces daily. I have often had to pick up needles, syringes over the years in the downtown area, especially near the Interfaith Shelter. Also, styrofoam containers full of food and clothing discarded. The front library has provided a nice location for so-called homeless to get strung out on illegal drugs and or liquored up, all while giving the public the FU, it provides amenities like Wi-Fi and public restrooms and water access. It also doesn't include a mother, shelter employee, or someone else nagging them about their illegal drug and alcohol usage. So then I went on to mention Jonathan green mentioned in the mat last meeting that the city isn't equipped to be providing social services You know like the home so-called homelessness stuff About maybe it's been almost four years ago. I was right here telling you that that's not what the city does but Mayor Mahoney Reply later and yes, that's that's part of our job to and that got into the residents in action grift and into the millions of dollars that was spent on the MTA Wilson School. This past winter, they were using the annex shelter that the city fixed up for homeless, but not for homeless people. They were using it for their own private businesses, nonprofits, and stuff like that. So I think, along with compassion, there needs to be contempt. you know, drug issues and stuff like that, the city has to be careful not to go overboard with compassion. Thank you.

Heather Kingson? Heather Kingson?

You're close.

Okay, correct me. Heather Kingsley. Oh, gotcha.

3920 Alston Drive. I'm outside of the city. However, I work at 151 West Michigan Ave right in the center. Thank you for allowing us to be here tonight to speak on behalf of the restaurants in downtown Jackson. We realize and appreciate the great responsibility you have to make this city a destination while also upholding the beauty and accessibility to it as well. We all need Jackson to be a desirable city if we're gonna continue growing the downtown business. I'm the GM of Oak and Iron, and I've witnessed many unpleasantries as a direct result of the homeless population that has taken refuge in our city. I would say I'm a very empathetic person, and even sympathetic to this situation. However, I have an obligation to my guests and even more importantly to my staff to make sure that they feel safe from the moment they park to the moment they leave their parking space. And I can tell you without a doubt that is not the case at this very moment in time. We've had constant run-ins with the homeless both inside our building and outside. I've had to call 911 on numerous occasions to either have someone picked up and removed from our building to report harassment, overdoses, and even as far as one of my bartender's cars being stolen from the back parking lot. I've had my car broken into and one of my other employees had their car broken into as well. We've been followed to our cars many times and our guests have been asked for food and money right outside the doors. I've been spit at. sworn at and had several people who have literally scared me to the point of not leaving my building without a security guard on my side. Last Saturday as I exited my building there was a guy in the back parking lot who asked me for money. I told him that I don't carry cash. I was parked in the lot by the city bus station and he followed me step by step all the way there. That'll make your heart beat. little quick. I've had employees leave at night and when they close their car door they've had homeless people pounding on their windows demanding money. On July 4th as I walked out the front door to water the plants in front of our building there was a woman across the street screaming profanities as she had a full-scale argument with herself. The short version is this. I run a restaurant in a beautiful neighborhood, and we're trying to build a community of loyal customers who love supporting local businesses. I get emails and Facebook comments regularly about how this community no longer feels safe in the downtown area. I also run the late night honky tonk that runs till 1 a.m. or later, and as the summers progress, people have stopped coming out or staying late out of fear of the neighborhood. One family that stopped in for dinner told me that they would never allow their children to come downtown at night. While I don't have all of the answers, I'm relying on the government of this city to step up and do the right thing. Not just because we all pay city taxes, but because you care about the city of Jackson and the people that are working here trying to weather this storm and trying to hang on so that we can support our families while supporting our community.

Michael, last name starts with an S.

What's the last name, Michael? Solski. Sorry, I know it's a little hard. It's Polish. I just couldn't read it. It's okay. So I came here today. I'm just letting everybody in here know I do not follow politics a lot. But the thing I joined the Navy for was helping people and choosing to put on military police badge and try to help as many people as I could in that situation. Now I see a lot of suits and I see a lot of people A lot of people are making decisions and a lot of suits are not. There's two hours for people to leave. In the military, they told us 24 hours before we had to clean our room. So you are telling people to pack up their lives within two hours and putting it in a very laughable 32 gallon crate, whatever. And then you're going to put it in a shipping container. Then you say people can just ask for their items. How are we going to find these items and verify that that's those people's items? People are going to be asking for other people's things that they see in there and there's going to be no way unless there is a full filled out thing. I don't know. I'm out of words, man. Never was. But I also see a whole bunch of people struggling with substance abuse, money problems, things of literally 92,000 natures that can ruin lives. And yet I see nothing being happened but police officers taking people from places they were sitting comfortably and then being put in front of a library. And now because of that, we are having a meeting for people to have a life and be able to have access to their own stuff and be able to sleep on a comfortable spot at night if they can't sleep in a bed. It's not that hard. There's so many people in this room that obviously care. We just want you guys to care just as much as we do and that means more than two hours and a bigger than 32 gallons. I don't know anybody on this entire panel right here that can fit their life in a 32 gallon container and put it in a shipping container. I more than would if I had the space, but I'm a struggling human being just as much as everybody else. But that's all I got to say.

Dickie Vanderpool.

Hi, my name is Dickie Vanderpool, DJ for the ones that know me. I am here today to speak about the homelessness issue. My buddy just kind of rang a few of the words that I wanted to say as far as the two-hour deal. I feel like two hours is much too short to pack your whole life into a container as he said, right? And then, uh, this is just a bandaid. Like as, as many of you have said, these people have mental health disabilities. These people have problems with drugs. They have problems with alcohol. And until we actually put funding forth in extra funding and training for police officers to deal with these situations, It's just a band-aid, and we're not going to fix anything. These people are just going to go somewhere else. They're going to go to a, as someone else said, a private property where this ordinance doesn't apply. And then what's the fucking issue? my apologies my apologies but as others have said what's happening with ta i have a buddy that lives right next to ta and barely sees anybody go in and out of it he has stuff stolen from his house from time to time what what's happening there i i don't hear anything about it i don't see anything about it but that's my time i'm good

Nicholas Thurston Nicholas Nicholas Thurston

Good evening. My name is Nicholas Thurston. I live in Jackson, Michigan, 410 Van Buren Street, Department B, Ward 5. So I just want to give people some information about what's happening. Police are dropping people off from other cities in Jackson. Nonprofits from other cities are busing people into Jackson, other states. So what's happening here is definitely not organic. I would call it a hoax, honestly. I don't believe this is a... This is definitely a man-made thing. This is not organic. We don't have housing shortages in Jackson. There's tons of empty houses and apartments. And in the rest of the countries, there's over 16 million empty houses and apartments in the country. Some of them are government rent-controlled, low-income housing apartments that are just sitting vacant. We also have another problem of about 30 million illegals in this country and violent protests preventing them from being deported that would free up even more units of housing. But to try to keep things local and modern, what I'm going to focus on is the amount of money that goes to nonprofits in Jackson. There's about 1,000 nonprofits in Jackson. They get about $1 billion a year, and they do little to no work. And not all of them are dedicated to homelessness and poverty programs. Not all of that money is government funding, but a huge amount of that money absolutely is. There are, you have Home of New Vision. They're just a couple blocks from the library. Where are they at? They get millions of dollars here. You have Family Service and Children's Aid. They get millions of dollars government grants. They're across the street from the library. Where are they at? They're under contract right now with Jackson County government. I think county gave them about 100 grand. They approved it in December. And there's another news article, I think from the Channel 6, that they got approved for a $370,000, I think $822 from the Michigan Opioid Settlement Fund just June 24th. There's a news article about that. They routinely get approved for large sums of money. And it appears they do little to no work. It's supposed to be specifically for transitional housing, drug recovery, homeless outreach. Where are they? Residents in Action got millions of dollars. They got millions of dollars from the city, the state, and the federal government. They do little to no work. They don't follow through with anything. And basically, if you look at their business model, it is a racial covenant. They have no intention of helping anybody else. And the odd thing is they complain about racial covenants, but as soon as they get government grants and government contracts, they create one. Seems ironic to me, but very predictable. I called it from the very beginning. It was fake. It was a scam. It was never real. You have Interfaith Shelter. They got $11 million this last year. Are they doing $11 million worth of work? Hell no. Jackson Housing Commission, they had over 300 empty apartments. And then their employees, Tracy Joseph left, and Davida Quinn came down here and saying there was a housing shortage. They lied to all our faces so they could get approved for government contracts for work that they didn't even follow through on doing. Where are shelters? Right up the street at Michigan Avenue. Where are they at? Andy's Place, right up Michigan Avenue. Where are they at? Department of Health and Human Services, right up Michigan Avenue. Where are they at? This is normal for Jackson. This is a fraud and a hoax.

Mike Anastadios. Sure, I didn't say that correctly. Correct me, Mike, please.

It's Mike Anastasiadis. Anastasiadis. Anastasiadis. Okay, thank you. And I live at 3636 Roosevelt Circle. Let me start by saying that I understand about the homeless. I do, what I do is I work for an organization that's part of the NEMT, the Non-Emergency Medical Transportation. We're a strictly volunteer program, so we take the underprivileged to their doctor's appointments, medical treatments and whatnot. So that being said, I do a lot of traveling around Jackson. So I get to see a lot firsthand what's going on in this city. But I also see the good with the bad. And I understand that a lot of these people are down on their luck, but you can't really tell the good from the bad as the young lady over there said when she was followed by somebody that made her extremely uncomfortable, I personally witnessed in Loomis Park, which I stop on occasion to use the port-a-johns, a man was in that port-a-john with a woman. She came out first. He came out second with his pants down. They were both homeless. Secondly just recently about three weeks ago on a Saturday. I was at the Jackson coffee company parked outside Waiting for them to open their doors two women were standing outside. I was sitting in my truck in my suburban and there was a homeless gentleman sitting standing there and He didn't have any belongings with him But he approached these ladies and asked them for money. And I could tell they were shaking their heads no. He got closer to them, asking them again, demanding money. And they kept saying, no, we don't have any, backing up. He kept approaching closer until I got out of my truck, went up next to them, approached them, told him, nobody has money, get lost. And he walked away. Not everybody can handle themselves. Not everybody can stand up to somebody that's going to approach you. Like she said, it made her extremely nervous. There are women in this town, there are kids in this town, there are young women. I have a 20-year-old daughter. I don't want her walking downtown and wondering if she's going to have somebody come up behind her and make her uncomfortable because she's trying to go downtown to eat at one of the establishments. And I'm not saying everybody's bad. There are people like that gentleman that came up here that served. He's down on his luck. But we have to distinguish the difference between the good and the bad, and I don't know how we're going to do that. And like I said, I travel all over the city. I see it all over the city, not just downtown. They're traveling, they're walking around, they're asking, they're begging for money, and they don't take no for an answer until you raise your voice, you get tough with them, and at some point it's going to end up in a confrontation because some of them don't take no for an answer. That's my time.

Judith Cresness?

You said it almost right, Cresno.

Cresno. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought we established set to begin. Just so everybody knows who is coming up, the clerk is keeping the time. So the clock is counting. but the clerk is keeping the time. The clock is counting, but the clerk has the correct time. So you will get your full three minutes, no stress.

Okay, as I said, or as you said, my name is Judy, actually Judy Gale Krasnow. And I live at Armory Arts Village. I've lived there for nearly 20 years, having moved from Miami, Florida, to live in that place, which is really very nice, well kept, decent people, hardworking, et cetera. And before I go on and say what is going on there, we have heard rumor, but today I found out from our management agent that it isn't rumor, that our backyard is what we call it, within the old prison wall, Armory Arts Village for those of you who may not know is, or was, Michigan's first state prison. For seven years I did historic tours there, got a book published about them, and the people loved coming there. But now we've been told that it is going to be used, it's apparently county-owned property, for a homeless shelter, which is also strange because very recently a farmer's market by Gro Jackson was started. And people are not, I was in tourism for seven years and I know what people see and cringe at or what they laugh at or what they like. They are not gonna come to that farmer's market and have tents and what have you and the tents I gather would be legal because it's county ground and There's almost 200 tenants there, and every single tenant I have met lately is saying, we're moving out. We're not going to stay here. And it's a lovely community. That is where I come from and would love to know further answers, but at the same time, I'd like to share with you the fact that my eldest grandson, who lives in Jackson Heights, New York City, and is a security guard, works at a homeless shelter. And it's a homeless shelter for people who have had misfortunes in their lives and also for the huge number of immigrants that are coming in that have no place to live. And what they have, they took over an old school and they made cubicles with a cut and a little living space when you mentioned all of that. They have their own little home. Okay, it's not glamorous, but it's a home. They have bathrooms.

Thank you, Judith. That was your three minutes, ma'am. I'm sorry. What? That was your three minutes is over. Thank you so much.

Oh, my God. Anyway, if I can just end with being informed.

I'm sorry. I got it. I got it. I will confirm that's not true. And then we have to move forward. Not true that I know of. We don't have intentions of opening a homeless shelter at At the property. I don't know what girl Jackson. No, we don't. No, man. No, that's not accurate information. Laura Price.

I'm right here. Can I speak from here?

Well, I would prefer you to come to the dais because I would like everybody to be able to hear you. Those folks will have to politely move. Please make some space for this young lady to come through. Make a hole. I got you. I got a Christian in the way.

I'm hoping that maybe I could just offer a couple of options or suggestions if that's all right. I mean we know that these these people are at the library because that's the only place they're allowed to be right now. But we also know that you know toileting outside is a biohazard. Blocking sidewalks for people like myself is also not fair. so I'm thinking well, what if we open up the Community centers just in the evening when they're closed close to other services And just give them a yoga mat and a place to lay down in the sack lunch It wouldn't really cost us anything but some volunteers to help them settled settle in Lights out at 10 out of there by 630 when the bus is run another option is to establish some squatters' rights for a designated piece of unused, unoccupied land. Give them an opportunity. I mean, you could go to a third world country, and they're at least going to allow you to build a shelter out of the elements. So just a piece of land that's not being used. It doesn't have to be permanent. There's a good working model if you want to look up Destiny's Bridge. in Lakewood, New Jersey, which was established just after Hurricane Katrina. One other option I'd like to ask that we really, really needed Jackson, I'm sorry, trying to breathe here. One other option I'd like to suggest is, Not just for the homeless, but for all, even the working poor, for people that just need to make a few extra dollars to put some groceries on their table. We really need to bring in a day labor service or establish a work corner. for people who really want to work and i believe there are people who really want to work because um honestly to tell you the truth the only difference between someone that's homeless and someone that's not is somebody that cares because there's not a person here that can't tell me that you didn't need a ride to work you didn't need a shoulder to cry on you didn't need an education you didn't need something from somebody And there was somebody there for you, so let's be there for them. OK? Another, just if I could throw this in, that would be nice, is if we could install some bike lockers in the bus station, downtown bus station. So if somebody is taking a bus to go look for work and they need to stash their bike or they need to stash their camping gear or whatever, it would pay for itself because we could charge by the hour or by the day and rent them out. That's it. Thank you so much for listening.

Thank you so much.

Hello, sorry, I'm gonna gather myself after that.

Yeah Okay, sorry just wanted to make sure we could hear you

Absolutely. Hi, my name is Paris Mast. I reside at 856 Kennedy Street. I want to thank you all for allowing us to be here and giving us a moment to speak and have your attention. I first want to address a couple of concerns that I have that I did not hear were addressed in this new ordinance. First being pets. I didn't hear anything mentioned about you know the Plan of action towards the pets downtown also the police presence, how are we going to monitor when those belongings were left how long they have been there is there going to be an increase in staff or a new. Agency or you know group of people that step up and volunteer how are we going to address that. Lastly, another concern that I have is the grilling and cooking in the public spaces, right? There's no way to guarantee that someone who is cooking and grilling outside of the library where they're residing, that someone walking into the library is not allergic to whatever it is they're cooking, you know? This has created not only a risk, but a giant concern to the people of our community. it is our due diligence to speak up and protect not only the rights of those experiencing homelessness but also protecting the rights and liberties of those who are also granted that same usage of those public spaces. I also would like to you know express that The homelessness and the drug issue that we have downtown is growing by the day. I work downtown. I see it every day. I'm quite often grabbing lunch from a different business or, you know, attending different things downtown. Multiple times I have been harassed. I've been followed back to work. I've been, you know, hackled walking to my car, leaving a bar. As a single woman in most of those situations, it's incredibly terrifying. So again, just taking our due diligence to not only protect those who are experiencing that issue, but also protecting our citizens who are trying to enjoy. this beautiful downtown that we've built. Lastly, if I could get this in very quickly, I appreciate this ordinance. My concern is how are we going to help these people get out of this situation, right? A lot of these people need drug rehab, et cetera. They need places of employment. That's hard to gain when you don't have a place to reside or a means of transportation. So what are we going to implement to require these people to take steps towards bettering their current position? As someone who works in staffing downtown, I have to vocalize how disappointing it is that none of these people that I have personally went and met at this encampment have come to me for employment or given any initiative to ask for resources or different Michigan. Yeah.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Greg Bird.

Good evening, Mayor, Council, and city staff. My name is Greg Bird. I am representing tonight Allen Edwin Homes. We're based out of Portage, Michigan. I'm here to express strong support for a proposed purchase of more than 90 additional lots in the city of Jackson. This is represented in agenda items 10D and 10L this evening. Our request represents much more than a real estate transaction. It represents a continued investment in the City of Jackson and the families who want the opportunity to own a home here. Allen Edwin Homes has already invested millions of dollars in the City of Jackson and we hope and are asking for the opportunity to invest in millions more. We have opportunities to invest all across the state of Michigan, and the reason that we're continuing to choose Jackson is because the partnership we've built with the city. We would not be making that commitment if we didn't believe in Jackson, its leadership, and its future. Across Michigan we work with many municipalities and I can tell you without hesitation, Jackson stands out as one of the best. The city has been an outstanding partner from day one. Your staff is responsive, accessible, knowledgeable, and committed to helping projects succeed. Development is never without challenges, but every interaction has been professional, collaborative, and focused on finding solutions. What's impressed us most is the culture you've created. Whether working with community development, legal, or many other folks in the city, there's a shared commitment to moving projects forward. Questions are answered promptly, and decisions are made efficiently. When issues arise, as they inevitably do in any development project, the conversation is always about how to solve them. That kind of partnership is rare and gives companies like Allen Edward Hones the confidence to continue investing in Jackson. Quite simply, you've created an environment where businesses want to invest in your community. Tonight's proposal gives us the opportunity to continue that partnership by investing millions more into this community through the construction of quality, obtainable homes, Those homes will provide opportunities for families, strengthen neighborhoods, and expand the tax base and contribute to Jackson's continued growth and success. Thank you for the partnership you've shown, Allen-Edwood Homes, over the years and thank you for your consideration of those agenda items this evening. Thank you.

Thank you. Charlotte O'Sullivan.

So. So.

I'm Charlotte O'Sullivan and I'm reading a comment on behalf of Kathleen O'Sullivan-Cook, resident of the City of Jackson Ward 6. I oppose proposed Article 10. This ordinance is unnecessary. It targets unhoused residents and it invokes safety and accessibility goals the City has neglected where they actually matter. If those are truly the Council's priorities, I ask that these existing problems be addressed first. inadequate public transit bus stops lack benches and shelter riders sometimes seem to wait over an hour the service ends at 5 pm while much of the city is still working and living residents who cannot drive constantly struggle to get or keep jobs because of it hazardous obstructed sidewalks. Raised broken sections routinely trip pedestrians and are impassable for bikes, strollers, and wheelchairs. Parked cars, building supplies, and yard waste block sidewalks far more often than unhoused person's belongings. And I have yet to see anyone fined for that. Genuinely excessive property some of those same households have multiple vehicles equipment materials that have not moved in months or years with no comparable enforcement missing sidewalks entirely large stretches of the city including school zones residential areas stores and even parks have no paved pedestrian route at all forcing pedestrians parents with strollers commuters and children with bikes into the road emergency access failures. This past fall in Winster, construction around our main hospital was so bad that it narrowed or closed routes that EMS workers depend on. The crews were not kept informed of changing routes and closures for all those months, delaying critical care. This crisis did not receive nowhere near this level of attention. These concerns deserve the council's time and money before an unhoused person's basket of blankets, particularly when many people fear our shelters and are turned away from other services and have nowhere else to go. i pay over six thousand dollars a year in taxes to the city i ask it fund real safety and accessibility needs rather than the harassment of our most vulnerable neighbors over 20 years here and on house person's possessions have never impeded my movement but the city's boat could concrete has certainly injured me and even drawn blood please vote no on article 10.

Les Brown.

I'm going to go ahead and pass. Phil already covered what I wanted to talk about.

Thank you, Mr. Brown. You bet. Madeline Carr.

Hello.

Madeline Carr, Brooklyn, Michigan. I really just wanted to come up here today because I appreciate how the city is trying to frame this ordinance that I hope you vote against as something that is neutral or isn't going to be disproportionately harming any people. against housed versus unhoused when in literally every city where similar ordinances have passed, they have had harms on the homeless population. Okay? So brought up Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo. How many people went and retrieved their things after they were taken, after they were impounded? I know the answer to that. None. Over 500 carts of things from people, their personal property, their things. You have houses full of things. They don't. They have their things on them. When they had their things taken in Grand Rapids, nobody went and got it. When I actually asked the people downtown, how would they feel about this ordinance? Because I went and talked to them, which is something you can do, by the way, if you're concerned about them. Would they actually follow through with that? Would they go pick up their things? Every single person I talked to said no because they're scared. They're concerned that if they have paraphernalia, will they be arrested for that? Will they get in trouble for that?

Okay.

If they are concerned about their ability to get their things, they know, and we know this, we know this, there is research on this, that this directly harms the most vulnerable populations. So I don't know what research you did. It was not good. Whoever helped you with that research failed you. Because it is easy to find this information. I could find this information. Every single city, I'm not kidding. This directly harms people from the emotional distress. Imagine your things being taken from you. That's the first thing that people downtown said to me. These are my things. Would you like it if I came and took your things? No. You wouldn't. You would not like that if someone went and just took your things. Finally, I only got 30 seconds left because I got riled and I didn't plan enough. I apologize. I also asked them what they could do downtown to address the cleanliness and concerns about safety. Providing cleaning supplies and toiletries, increased trash pickup and sanitation, public restrooms. There is an unused public bathroom at Bucky Harris Park. sharp drop boxes or containers in public restrooms so that those things that you're concerned about can actually be disposed of safely, provide signage that shows how to line up tents and where to keep items to help keep the sidewalk accessible, and provide voluntary storage space for belongings as opposed to involuntary.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mandela.

Thank you.

Ella Scott? Ella Scott?

Hey, so my name's Ella Scott. I live over in Blackman Township, but more people in this room know me as Alex than anything else. Hey everybody. So, A lot of stuff got said in that presentation, and holy cow, I'm freaking out. If it looks like I'm freaking out, imagine how much worse that's got to be when you are actively being impacted, when you don't have a home or safety to rely on. First of all, it was laid blatantly clear, they can take essentials. Like, they could take your meds. And like when you consider, right, the open hours that have been described being 7 a.m. to 5 p.m., what if something happens? What if I need my stuff for any particular reason and I just can't get it? Because, oh, there's nobody there. Guess I can't go get my stuff. And also just so much of this relies on the discretion of officers. Do they think something is too much? We've said that it's really hard to visualize what actually would fit in a 32 gallon container. So how do we know that the cops are gonna be able to do that? How do we know that the cops are actually gonna be fair to these people? I've gone down there and talked to them and they do not like the cops. Because the cops do not like them either. Would they even be able to cooperate to do anything? Or the cops are incentivized to just be like, oh, this is unsafe. We think this is unsafe to be out in public, actually. We're just going to toss it. Because, like, let's face it. I have the ordinance right here. And one of the things in the prohibition section is... No person shall store any personal property in a public area if the personal property, whether attended or unattended, constitutes an immediate threat to public health or safety. Who gets to determine that? The cops. How do you know there's not going to be like some bigots in there who are going to be like, oh, well, everything to do with the homeless is dangerous, actually. And I know you said that there's supposed to be documentation for these things. Who is making sure that that documentation happens? That is not specified. I... And people were asking the question earlier, are we just trying to take down the encampment so they won't have anywhere to sleep? yes that is that is the point of all this isn't it as well intentioned as i think some people on this council truly are with all this this you are taking stuff from people who they the only stuff they have to take they can't store properly themselves do voluntary storing pick out a vacant lot and just let them camp there anything else thank you

sierra micaiah oh my gosh you said it right you guys round of applause for that good evening constituents my name is sierra micaiah i live at the renaissance apartments am i allowed to play a video that another member of our community could not be here to relay no that's okay so i want to take a moment to speak to the women in the community who are very scared of the big scary men outside So here's the thing, gals. The man most likely to hurt you is sleeping next to you or a few doors down. He's your husband, your boyfriend, or my personal favorite, your son. So instead of trying to blame the misogyny problem on the homeless, let's spend a little more time investing in education and mental health resources so we have more emotionally regulated men on our streets, okay? That's all I want to say. Have a good night.

Angelique Jones.

Oh, do I hate standing up here? My nerves just get to me. Hey, AJ. Good evening, council members and members of our community. My name is Angelique Jones. I am the founder and developer of the Ajay Project. Ajay stands for accountability, housing, jobs. Sorry, my nerves. Accountability, housing, jobs. My bad. I'm so sorry. Take your time. housing, jobs, I can't think of the word, sorry, NU, project, a community initiative currently in development focused on addressing the challenges surrounding homelessness. I'm here tonight because homelessness continues to be one of the most difficult challenges facing our community. First, I want to acknowledge the organizations, volunteers, and individuals who work hard every day to support people facing homelessness. That work matters and it's important to our community. But I believe in also asking another question. How do we help people beyond homeless and create a stable future? A person experiencing homelessness is not just a person without a home. They are a person with a story, value, potential, and many people facing homeless have lost ability, opportunity, and access to support needed to rebuild. The Ajay Project was developed around a simple belief. People deserve the opportunity to regain stability, purpose, and independence. We often hear a saying, give someone a fish and you'll feed them for a day. Teach someone a fish and you'll feed them for a lifetime. But before someone can learn to fish, they need the tools to begin, the opportunity to try, and someone willing to believe that they can succeed. I understand homelessness is a complex issue, and no single person, organization can solve it alone. It will take a collaboration between our city, local organizations, businesses, and community members. Tonight, I am not here to say I have all the answers. I am here to introduce the Ajay Project, begin conversations, and connect with others who believe we can do more to help people move towards stability and independence. Thank you for your time and your commitment to our community.

Jesse James.

Good evening, everybody. Jesse James, civil rights activist, litigator, 241 East Mansion, Jackson, Michigan, Ward 1. I stand before you not only as a citizen, but someone who believes that justice is measured by how we treat those with the least among us. Let me be clear from the outset. I do not believe the homeless encampment should remain where it is. Public spaces belong to everyone. And the City of Jackson has both the authority and the responsibility to maintain for health, safety, and the welfare of the entire community. The United States Supreme Court confirmed in City of Grants Pass v. Johnson in 24, as our city attorney said, that municipalities may enforce laws prohibiting camping on public property. But the legal authority to remove an encampment does not relieve us of our moral and constitutional obligation to protect the dignity of the people living there. Behind every tent is a human being, also said. Some lost their housing because of circumstances beyond their control, including the Reed Manor fire. Others struggle with addiction, mental illness, and both. These are not merely personal failures. They are symptoms of larger systemic problems that demand systemic solutions. Our Constitution recognizes that every person is entitled to due process under the 14th Amendment. The Equal Protection Clause, it reminds us that the government must act fairly and consistently toward every individual. While homelessness itself is not a protected class, people experiencing homelessness do not surrender their constitutional rights simply because they lost a home. Courts also have recognized that when governments clear encampments, they must respect lawful procedures regarding notice and the handling of personal property. The question before us is not whether the encampment should be moved. It should. The question is whether we will simply relocate human suffering from one street corner to another, or whether we will address the causes that placed these individuals there in the first place. Many cannot obtain employment because they lack identification. They cannot obtain identification because they lack birth certificates or social security cards. Without those documents, they cannot secure housing. They cannot open bank accounts or fully participate in society. Many need assistance accessing food benefits, mental health treatment, substance abuse treatment, and case management before they have a realistic opportunity to rebuild their lives. If our community has the resources to distribute Narcan to save lives, then we also have the responsibility to invest in preventing those lives from reaching the point of crisis. Saving a life is only the first step. Restoring a life must be the goal. Compassion and accountability are not opposites. We can enforce our ordinances while extending dignity. We can restore public spaces while restoring hope. We can require compliance with the law while ensuring every individual has a genuine opportunity to succeed. History will not judge us by how quickly we remove some tents. It will judge us by whether we remove the barriers that kept our neighbors trapped in homelessness. Let us be remembered as the city that chose justice over indifference, solutions over appearances, and humanity over convenience. Thank you.

Brenda Humphrey. Brenda Humphrey. Grady Minish. I thought I saw Grady walk out. Cindy Eby.

Well, I did come to speak to the authoritarian nature of city council these days, but The only part of that I'm going to mention is your, Mayor Mahoney, your unconstitutional rules for public speaking. You took an oath, as all of you did, to uphold the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of Michigan. Strangely, not the Constitution or the Charter of the City of Jackson, which you are not upholding. So, but the two that you are supposed to uphold, you are not doing every time, you are violating it every time you read that. But anyway, I just want everybody here to know and understand that homelessness in Jackson was greatly exacerbated by Derek Dobies when he oversaw the demolition of over 2,000 units of low-income housing. And then he replaced it with a few hundred units that low-income people cannot afford. His stated plan was to reduce poverty by half during his administration, and the only evidence of any action that he took was to tear down their houses, which would be an effective way. Just like this action will take away any shelter that these homeless people have, and then maybe they'll, I don't know, die or go to the township or something. I hope you, you're my only real hope that you'll vote against this.

I hope you do.

Brie Spitter? Spiteri? There we go.

Hi, my name is Brianna Spiteri. I just stand here as a member and a resident of Reed Manor. I've lived there for seven years. I've seen two fires. I've seen devastation. I was homeless when I knew many of you. A lot of you have gotten me through this because I am a part of the community. And Arlene and Connor and Derek and Freddie, you've all been my friends through all of this. And as a member of the community and currently home and employed, but not at one time. All I really want to say is, what would Jesus do? What would Jesus do? You know? I have been a community member for 20 years, and I wouldn't be here without most of you. You know, Cindy Evie. You know? We are a community and we need to stand as a community regardless if it's our friends outside of the library or our friends sleeping on the street.

Somebody will take you in.

Nikki Jolie took me in when I was alone. That is our job as humans and citizens is to help people and take people in. That's what Jesus would do. And that's the only thing I'm here to say.

Hello. Sam Cluse, Ward 5. As an active public servant, I'm appalled by this draft ordinance's absurd weaponization of the Americans with Disabilities Act against Jackson residents. Jackson's selective application of the ADA is grounds for investigation. Last winter, I repeatedly confronted city officials regarding the Department of Public Works failure to clear sidewalks of snow and ice. Well over 500 city-owned parcels were neglected the entire winter season. Snow and ice accumulated over five miles of public sidewalks, posing a public emergency, yet no action was taken by any city official to enforce an effective ordinance. In January, a DPW employee stated the city lacks resources to enforce its snow and ice removal ordinance and confirmed that no citations would be issued and no action would be taken to comply with the ADA. Following discussions in December, January, and February, our Ward 5 Council representative wrote, I appreciate the conversation and admit you have a legitimate concern. At this time, we do not have a solution. However, I plan to continue spearheading this concern to its final resolution. And no follow-up has occurred to date. My Ward 5 household was directly harmed by the City of Jackson's ADA negligence. We could not navigate the public way with my mother-in-law's wheelchair. She was under hospice care and unable to enjoy her favorite season thanks to the neglected city-owned properties on our block. Following a public hearing on April 7th, the Community Development Grant Coordinator wrote, City Council did not indicate a goal regarding the use of CDBG funds for lot maintenance. As such, there are no plans to allocate grant funds towards lot maintenance. And here we stand in late July with Council voting on a costly draft ordinance concerned with robbing a small group of marginalized individuals. The city of Jackson is obligated to maintain its own property inventory for the safety of all people year round. Council, vote down this abuse of draft ordinance. Enforcement of such an ordinance is proven to harm more than help. Seizure of personal property under the guise of ADA compliance should alarm every resident of Jackson, housed or otherwise. Thank you.

Greg Walker. Don't leave now, Laura. We're just getting started.

Greg Walker, 11141 Lake Avenue, Rapid City, Michigan. I've owned a downtown business with my wife for 25 years. I've heard all these impassioned speeches about homelessness. I have to reiterate what Ms. Schlechti said and Heather from the Oak Iron, excuse me. I almost said Daryl's. That's all true, but I've got two stories. In 25 years, when we first opened, there were five homeless people downtown. We knew them all by their first name. We fed them all. Cindy is one I remember in particular. She pushed a bicycle around town. We fed her a lot. Cindy's dead. I never heard what happened. Then there was Joe. Joe came in every night for two weeks last fall. In fact, he became kind of particular about the food he was asking for at one point. Joe's dead. Allowing those people to camp down there is not helping them. Joe died of an overdose. When you have needles on the ground and you're not enforcing the drug laws, you're not pushing those people towards the help that they need, you're helping no one. And that's the truth. I'm sorry. Thanks for your help.

Dina Morgan.

Hello, my name is Dena Morgan. I'm running for mayor. I'm the fourth generation of the Dungy family servants. I am a resident of Ward 1. Our mission is to help end the hunger and homelessness and food insecurity here in Jackson, Michigan. I did visit our homeless friends at the downtown encampment in front of the library. They're there together because they feel like they're not alone. I want to thank you, Mr. Will Forgrave, for not selling out and following our city charter and not endorsing Derek Dobie's. I appreciate it. All the rest of you followed suit. So I appreciate you and I have much respect. First, I want to talk about the Homeless Academy downtown. I met with our homeless friends. Okay. So I did submit two proposals to the city manager. I met with Shalonda Hunt, the city manager, and some other organizations. I did sit down at the downtown. and I did observe. I was there when the Chelsea police pulled up with the homeless person. And I talked to other visitors at the library and they are concerned. So it's like 50-50 here. You all have a tough decision. I do believe that it needs to be moved, but we have to have somewhere for them to go. I would not vote to move forward with this until we find somewhere for these people to go. It's only five people there that needs housing. And in the meantime, I will also, we need a resource hub, even if they have to be here at City Hall, open a room so we can serve these people and get them the help and the resources that they need. Thank you.

Nick Cook.

Good evening, Mayor, council members and residents of Jackson. My name is Nick Cook and I serve as the director of public policy for the Michigan Coalition Against Homelessness, and I'm an army veteran. I come before you tonight deeply disappointed by the ordinance being considered and even more troubled by its designation as an emergency measure. Michigan's homelessness in 2025 on its pick count, which is the point in time count, was up 4.3%. Over 2025, homelessness was up 10%. Let me be clear. We all want safe, clean, and accessible public spaces. We support keeping sidewalks open, protecting access for individuals with disabilities, addressing genuine health and safety hazards, and ensuring emergency personnel can do their jobs. Those are shared community goals. But this ordinance does not solve homelessness. It simply makes homelessness less visible. Across Michigan, housing costs continue to outpace incomes. Emergency shelters are often full and affordable housing remains in short supply. For individuals sleeping outdoors because they have nowhere else to go, a tent is not a nuisance. It is a shelter. A backpack is not excess property. It may contain everything a person owns, including identification, medication, family photographs, legal documents, and the tools they need to survive. What disappoints me most is the message this ordinance sends. It frames people experiencing homelessness primarily as an obstacle to be managed rather than neighbors in need of assistance. The ordinance repeatedly describes personal property, tents, and belongings as hazards, obstructions, and nuisances, yet nowhere does it create housing. Nowhere does it expand shelter capacity. Nowhere does it provide resources necessary to help people move permanently indoors. Instead, it authorized the removal of tent, property imposes fines on individuals who have no income and establishes a framework that will consume city resources in enforcement, storage, documentation, and disposal. We must ask ourselves, will Jackson be better off after moving someone's belongings? Will we have reduced homelessness or simply displaced it? The designation of this proposal as an emergency is particularly concerning. An emergency ordinance should be reserved for sudden immediate threats and demand urgent action. Homelessness in Jackson did not suddenly appear yesterday. It is the result of long-standing housing shortages, economic hardship, mental health challenges, and gaps in supportive services. These problems require thoughtful solutions, community engagement, and collaboration, not expedited enforcement. The people affected by this ordinance are among the most vulnerable members of your community. Many are seniors, some live with disabilities, some are veterans. Others are working people who simply cannot afford housing. These residents deserve dignity, respect, and meaningful opportunities to exit homelessness. Thank you, Mr. Cook.

Jennifer Spencer.

Good evening, Mayor, Council, everybody.

I am Jennifer Spencer, 218 South Mechanic Street, 55 years in Jackson, all of mine. I am NOT addressing homelessness. I'm addressing the people in front of the library This particular group of homeless people do not want to work pay taxes and they choose to live that lifestyle Not talking about everybody Jackson could shelter them but they can't stay there if they want to drink do drugs and stay out all night. I There is a small group, maybe two or three, that actually have mental health issues. I say this because I live downtown, I've been here forever, I watch them. I feel like the people that are already in place should step up and take care of the people with the mental health issues. I've watched people come and enable them, I've watched them drop off clothes and food, and it ends up just being accumulating trash downtown. Any given Sunday you can go to Ann Arbor, Mason, Chelsea, any small town and watch families walk around eating, drinking, riding their bikes, but not Jackson. The things that people are going to find walking around downtown Jackson is going to be needles, trash everywhere. they urinate on my building uh they crap all over the place and i call the police it's it's it's frustrating i just i feel like there's already things that are in place i agree with laura schlake and her first statement that i i just feel like there's just so much wasted time and energy and money on things when there's already things in place that should take care of this and what happened to TA Wilson because I'm pretty sure that this was supposed to take care of a lot of these issues. Thank you for your time.

Joseph Blackmore.

I'm Joseph Blackmore, Windham Hills. The growing presence of homeless individuals camping on the sidewalks and the streets directly in front of our public libraries becoming a serious problem for library users, staff, nearby businesses, families, and ultimately the individuals themselves. We must act now with compassion guided by responsibility before it escalates. As a community that values principles, consider the wisdom inside Second Thessalonians 310 to 312. In short, it says, The ones who are unwilling to work shall not eat. We hear that some among you are idle and disruptive. They are not busy, but busy bodies. Such people we command and urge them to settle down and earn the food they eat. Our library is meant to be a welcoming place for everyone, families with children, students that are studying, seniors, and job seekers. When sidewalks and entrances are occupied by encampments, it creates barriers. It's intimidating and reduces usage to the public. The increased litter and waste lead to health concerns. It creates potential for disruptive behavior. This turns a public asset into something that many residents avoid, undermining its purpose. It harms the individuals too, like I said before. Prolonged street encampments in front of the library expose people to dangers, weather, violence, health risks, and isolations from services. Clearing the area isn't about punishment, it's about directing people towards actual shelter, treatment, job programs, housing solutions that exist and can be expanded. We need to discuss good ideas and solve these problems. Enabling open-ended camping on public streets does not solve homelessness, it makes it much worse. These encampments can deter economic activity, active property values, and strain police and fire resources. Other cities like Grand Rapids have successfully enforced rules around public facilities like library schools, parks, and pairing enforcement with outreach outreach programs. We can do the same. Clear the immediate area enforcing existing ordinances against camping, sleeping in public streets and in front of public places. and ensure coordinated services are offered on the spot. I urge the council to designate the library area for heightened enforcement of anti-camping and public nuisance rules, partner with services providers, immediate outreach programs during any clearances, support funding and programs that emphasize work, skills training, and accountability, We can be a compassionate city without sacrificing public order, safety, and principles that work, and responsibilities. Thank you, Mr. Blackmore. Thank you very much.

Sarah Wood.

Hello. I actually wasn't planning to speak, but I decided to kind of put my little two cents out there. I live actually outside of the city. I live at Michigan Center, but I have been a resident of Jackson my whole entire life. I come from a big family, and growing up, my grandparents had a homeless man that lived in our garage. Like, they turned it into it. I've grown up with it and I know how it is. Um, I believe that this is a bigger picture than we're doing Obviously moving the people from in front of the library as a quick fix. It's a band-aid It's not gonna fix anything and we need to look at the bigger picture of this We need to form a committee of people if there's really a thousand nonprofits then maybe like one person from each or something and Somehow form a committee where these people get together and talk because there's a lot of committees that are doing the same type of thing But we're not solving any problems. We need to move the people maybe to TA Wilson while we come up with a solution I believe that the committee would be set up at the board and It would be kind of like how the Habitat for Humanity helps people to get a home you have stages that you do that you accomplish these things and then you get more help and So we move them to TA Wilson. We give them like three months to accomplish a list of goals that they need to do. Once they've done that and they show proof of it, we now take them to someplace like the old doctor's hospital or something like that where we could give them a room and board or something like that. And they can keep continuing to move up. They also, because they are homeless and at a certain income, they would get state assistance. They could take a portion of that state assistance and put that into paying for wherever their location is. Some of that money could be set aside and when they get on their feet and things, then they could use that as a down payment for something. We can't just take these people's stuff and put them out. They're there. They've been there. You can't just decide one day it's not going to work. That's not fair without having a solution. So really, I personally work in the mental health field. And when you take away things from people with mental health, it creates more mental health, which in the long run is going to create more of a problem because then they're going to be using more of our government-funded medical and everything to take care of that. So we're just creating more and more issues by not really coming up with an effective plan for this. So I believe that what I'm trying to say in a nutshell is that we need to form a committee, people work together, and in that committee people hold each other accountable. Instead of just giving money because this sounds great and that sounds great, let's hold people accountable. If they're not doing what they said, then you're out of this. Now we're going to bring somebody else in to help. because that's the only way when things change is when there's accountability. We're shoveling money all over, but nothing is helping and it's just not making any sense. And as a concerned person of Jackson, I just feel like we need to do better.

Christy Maxwell.

Hi, my name is Christy. I represent Oak and Iron at 151 West Michigan F. I just wanted to come up to say today that the concerns that we have as women working in the city are real. They are true. I was raised on Goodbye Earl. So not very much a weak woman by any means. And I now have a security guard who walks me to my car because I am one of those people who is followed to my car. A gentleman would not stop tapping on my window. And I 100% agree that this is too much of a quick fix. It's not going to change anything. If you take away where they are staying, they're going to be sleeping on the benches outside of where we are at. We have had employees who have quit due to the fact that they feel unsafe. Their families want them to come home to them. And this is a real problem down there. At what point will you do something real to fix it? Is it gonna take a mother dying on the street because there's somebody who's upset having a mental health crisis or someone who is strung out on drugs down there? At what point is there a real solution? While I agree that the encampment does need to be moved, there also needs to be a real solution. There are real concerns on both sides of this. We can have empathy for your situation and lack the patience for your excuses. Like the lady from Jackson Candle said, most of these people do not want to work. They do not want real help. The people that do are taking the steps to get help. Those are the people we should be investing our time in. I urge you to find a real solution, not a Band-Aid.

Gene Lowe.

Hi, everyone. I'm Gene Lowe. I live at 618 Bryant Ave. I just want to say that I'm I have a lot of compassion for the homeless. I have two adult sons that live in heaven. Both of them at one point in their life were homeless. One of them was homeless in Texas in Fort Worth. They lived on Lancaster Avenue if you're familiar with Texas. Lancaster Avenue was a really really bad part and he did not want to be homeless. My oldest son He chose to be homeless. We gave him a bedroom, bed, everything for him, but his drugs had such a hold on him And we told him he couldn't do drugs in our house. So that was the rule. And he had to come home at night, and he couldn't bring friends into the house. Well, those were rules that you couldn't place on a drug addict. So he chose to sleep outside our house in his van. But the homeless life is what he chose, so he didn't have to work. Well, anyway, as I said, they both passed away, but the drugs and the alcohol were what caused them to be homeless, along with, of course, mental illness. My second one was a victim of criminal sexual conduct by a pedophile, a relative of our family who was a bigwig at Consumers Energy, and years before that was the president of Jackson Public Schools. So anyway, these kids were messed up. But I'm here to tell you I have all experience with homeless. And I love my boys with all my heart and always will, but they didn't wanna work And if I tried to fight them, to hold my hands down and say, you guys will get a job, and you will live right, and be tough mama bear, I'll tell you what, they sent me to the hospital more times than I can count. I know I have compassion for homeless, but I also know that they can be mean. So these organizations that are trying to be helpful, you gotta have some balance because they're not all just needing help. They're needing mental help as well. Thanks.

Joe Fuller.

Hi, how are you guys doing today?

So anyway, I heard about your little ordinance. It's an absolute joke. You are leaving what these people are going to do up to the police. Now, if police hate this guy over here, but like this lady over here, who are they going to mess with? Who are they going to take an opportunity to go after? That is awful. Another thing, do you guys practice active listening? Because I see a lot of you up here just looking away, looking around. This gentleman right here, thank you for taking notes. I appreciate that. Scoffing at people when they make comments is an absolute disgrace to the people who pay for your guys' salary. This is our county. You guys help us run it and are supposed to follow the laws and do everything like that. Well, that doesn't really happen. But anyway, if we can't take care of the homeless that we have, why do we keep busing in more? Maybe it's a money problem. So let's go ahead and let's look at some of the money. So we got Hope Services and McCurry Academy Center, each got $50,000, both listed at the exact same address. Dissolved. $100,000 gone. Could have helped some people, right? I mean, we can look at the TA building who got $2.3 million and says it's going to take another $1.3 million to actually open. Okay, understandable, but why hasn't it opened? Why is no one pushing for this? Last thing I'm going to say is I consider this council failed. Y'all all messed up. Some of you are trying, but you get pushback from other people. I completely understand that. Pushback. These people are Mr. Green here, Mr. Mahoney are a couple people that I've talked to. I supported you when you first ran. I liked what you had to say. You had a good idea, a good plan. What happened? I'm not sure. I've been here 13 years. I have no idea. I love this city. I love this town. It's now Third World Jackson and I greatly appreciate you guys for helping us with this. Thank you.

John Light. John Light. Come on down. Set me off now.

John Light. I live out in Henrietta Township, as Mr. Green likes to call me, the friend from the north. Okay, I've been listening to a lot of stuff. You guys have heard me in here a lot. And probably one of the things that you need to do is maybe one of the impediments to T.A. Wilson building open is they can't operate unless an emergency ordinance is enacted for that, such as you did in the wintertime, okay? So maybe on the agenda, somewhere along the line, you might go ahead and adopt an emergency ordinance so they can possibly do anything. They don't have to open full time, maybe a few hours here or there, but they can't do that unless you relieve them of some of the ordinances that that building does not meet. So the homeless thing is tough, I get that. I hear a lot of respect, compassion for the people. Well, there's a lot of other people in this town that have stuff, like their homes. There's taxpayers that have sit and watched this year after year, many, many avenues of money not being spent. So maybe it's time to show them some dignity and respect and start making some better decisions with their money. And lastly, I'm here to promote John Wilson for mayor. Now, John is a buddy of mine. He's been a friend of mine for a long, long time. And I can tell you one thing. If you want somebody that is going to watch your money, it's John Wilson, okay? He does not like spending money. He drives a pickup truck that's probably got 250,000 miles on it with no air conditioning, okay? So... All the people that are back in the room here and all the people that are listening to this on YouTube land. John Wilson for mayor. Thank you.

Christie made Davis.

Thank you very much, Mr. Mayor, council. Nice to see you all this evening. Storing property will do nothing. What we need here is accountability. We already have at least 11 ordinances in place that will address several of the issues at the encampment downtown. First of all, we don't need more ordinances. We need enforcement. I have been told, I cannot remember by who, but I have been told the JPD was actually instructed to stand down and not interfere at all. Second, if a certificate of occupancy is required for businesses, homes, and apartments, how is a tent on the sidewalk safe or sleeping on a park bench safe? One thing we need to push for is getting Reed Manor repaired. I know that's a lot of extra additional things with Federal and HUD, but that would help with affordable housing. Second, REIA, I believe. Mr. Attorney, maybe you should look into this, would be in breach of contract since the purchase agreement specifically states that the annex is to be used as a homeless shelter. Three, why has more than $5,000 been spent already on an ordinance that has not even been passed? And from what I have been told, this is not the first time that this has happened. Four, where is the county? There are the ones responsible for social issues. Has the county been approached? I don't know what the solution is, but I still feel they should be approached. Fifth, if you all saw the old Kevin Costner movie, Field of Dreams, if you build it, they will come. That's kind of what's happening downtown. We now have Kalamazoo, Pleasant Lake, Battle Creek and now Chelsea sending us their homeless. What are we going to do about that again? Accountability and if you need a list of those ordinances that can address multiple things, I can provide them to you. But the last thing we need tonight is one more ordinance. Thank you so much.

I don't see her, but Nancy Smith? Okay. Rich Collins. Rich Collins? There we go, Mr. Collins. I thought I saw you in here.

Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Jonathan, and the City Council. My name is Rich Collins. I live in Summit Township, but I am here representing Commonwealth Associates. So I'm the president of Commonwealth, and we are located in the old Comerica building next to the JSO. So we have a firsthand perch to watch this whole thing that's going on. In fact, I'd probably think, probably our business is probably the most affected business due to this whole situation library not being a business, but we're right across from the park. This is not a problem. Somebody said that earlier. This is not a new problem. It's been around for three, four years that I've seen since we've been there about five years now, and it gradually got worse. But I want to kind of bring up, and I don't want to take away the humanistic aspect of this. Obviously, this is a very human issue. We don't have to be a heartless people. But I want to give you the business perspective from Commonwealth. We've had new grads that we recruited here at Jackson from outside of Jackson. These are good paying jobs, people that would be good community citizens from elsewhere, college graduates. They lived in the 200, which was part of the plan of the Anchor Initiative. I was on Anchor for a long time. And we built those apartments to attract people so they could walk downtown and create a more vibrant downtown. And it worked. It was great. And I had several engineers move into those apartments. They're now moving out. They're moving out, not because they're getting married, because they're engineers, but they are... Sorry. But they... They don't want to see this. They don't want to be in this environment. They don't feel safe. These are males. These are not females. These are males, and they're moving out elsewhere, maybe out of the city. I'm not sure where they're moving. This summer, we've had numerous negative experiences. It's just gotten worse. Employees being panhandled, employees being screamed at. So we parked, just to give you a visual, we parked down Hayes Avenue and in lot 20. Those are all our employees, all right? The worst one is we've never had this problem too much, but all of a sudden now we have female employees being harassed, suggestive comments made to them. They're scared to walk to their cars, much like other women have said tonight. Not me. We're actually looking into hiring security. We haven't done it yet. This wasn't part of my plan moving downtown to have to have security, but we may have to just to protect our employees. So yeah, there are some. I'm sure half the people are nice, but there are some that have issues and some that aren't nice. It goes against the Facebook narrative that they're all nice people. Some of them are not nice people. Right now, unfortunately, we are We're negotiating a lease in Ann Arbor. Thank you, Mr. Collins. That's the time. That's it?

Yes, sir. Three minutes goes by quick. I know it. Effie Matthews?

Hello, my name is Effie Matthews, and this is the first time I've done this. But I became homeless last year with my family. I had a wife that had a wheelchair. It was horrible because they're talking about getting us from point A to point B, but you can't get to point A to point B because THE BAD PARTS OF THE ROADS, THE SIDEWALKS. YOU CAN'T BUST THEM UP. THEN YOU'VE GOT PEOPLE WHO HAS THE... I WENT AROUND AND I TALKED TO A LOT OF THE HOMELESS PEOPLE. I WENT TO THE INTERFAITH. I WENT TO DROPPING CENTER. THERE'S A LOT OF RESOURCES OUT THERE, BUT THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW THE RESOURCES. NEW VISION. THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT I TALKED ABOUT THAT, YES, THE ONE LADY ACTUALLY FELL OFF THE WAGON AND SAID, HEY, I DON'T KNOW WHERE TO TURN TO. I SAID, WELL, HAVE YOU TURNED TO NEW VISION YET? YEAH, THEY COME AROUND, THEY MAKE SURE YOU GOT WATER AND ALL THAT STUFF, BUT THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THEY WERE So there's a lot of things out there that they need to spread a little bit more of what they have. And there's a lot of decisions and suggestions out here. Make a hub. I have an idea for an old place that I was planning on buying and actually turning into a place that brought in resources. I even called and asked before I even came in here. I had three people that said definitely their business would be glad to come in once a week just to talk to the homeless. It went just because they were mentally challenged or had a behavioral problem or a mental problem or a drug problem or an alcohol problem. I mean, I'll stand here on public notice. I am an alcoholic. I've been that way. But I haven't drank in many, many years. And I won't because of my family. That made me change. I wanted to be a better person. But they can't make anybody do anything that they don't want them to do unless they want to do it. And when they get rock bottom for homeless, yes. But when you turn around, the ultimate question I've got, and it keeps coming back to me, you guys are saying that for the tents, they can't log them down. You have to put them up. They can't do that through a permit. What if they can't pay for that permit? What if the storm comes through? You're telling me to get sleep in the rain and the cold. That's not fair to anybody. I wouldn't want to do it. I have done it. I brought my wife in a massive storm. And I had one person stop. One. Can we help you? Figure maybe they'll give us a ride, because we were at the TA Wilson. I was there when they closed. We know why they closed. The annex building was too hot. It wasn't provided for someone. I don't know what's going on since then. I haven't followed it. I have talked to Ms. DeVita. That's about it. But I do know the only thing they gave me, because we were homeless, LITERALLY HOMELESS. I HAD A WAGON BEHIND ME WITH A COOLER TO HAVE WATER FOR WHOEVER MIGHT HAVE WANTED SOMETHING, BECAUSE THE GROUP THAT WE HUNG OUT WITH, THEY HELPED EACH OTHER. THEY WANTED TO HELP EACH OTHER. IF SOMEBODY CAME MISSING, IT WAS LIKE ACROSS THE BOARD. YOU WENT LOOKING FOR THEM, BECAUSE THAT WAS A FACT. IF YOU WANT YOUR PERSONAL PROPERTY NOT TO BE TAKEN, GET WHAT YOU MAINLY NEED, PUT IT WHERE YOU NEED TO GO, AND THAT'S IT. YOU CAN'T HELP. IF YOU WANT TO CHOOSE TO BE HOMELESS, BE HOMELESS. But there's a reason if you want to not be homeless, that's the only way it's going to help. So that is the big thing. And thank you for your guys' time. Have a good day.

Thank you. Wendy Baller? Wendy? Wendy? Going once, going twice. Wendy.

Did I say it right? Okay.

Tom Kristoff. Time left. Okay. Alyssa Willis.

All right. Hello, all. Good to start? Okay. All right. So a lot of things on my mind. I feel like this is a very complex issue. I don't believe that emergency ordinance is the right solution. Can you get closer to the mic? Sure can. Complex solution cannot have an immediate response. It needs to be thought about. There are many nuances. There are many people being affected. I think that we need to be looking to other communities and how they are responding to similar problems because this is much bigger than Jackson, Michigan. This is much bigger than the whole nation. This is happening outside of the country as well. It's very common. And there are some approaches that are working better than others, and there's information to look into to see what those programs are. We have established protocols already for emergency responses, emergency management, and I think it would be wise to tap into those resources. Their networks are quite vast, and they are able to help people in emergency situations, and I would consider people living without housing to be an emergency situation. So I don't believe that this is a good option to move forward with. If it is something that some are thinking it is the right option, I do believe that there need to be revisions made to the current proposal. So there are, we've talked about tents here. I believe that those need to be included specifically as essential property for people. They shouldn't be discarded. They're people's shelters in these difficult times. There is the storage and disposal 30-day retention period. There's no extension mechanism that would be greatly helpful for people that are maybe incarcerated or in hospital and are not able to meet that 30-day requirement. believe that we could also do better with the enforcement section so consider making use of warnings and referrals like instead of citations the default rather than allowing individuals to decide whether they want to do that or not and have a discretionary alternative and reserve that for repeat or aggravated violations Ultimately, I don't believe this is the right ordinance to move forward with. I think that we can all do better. I think we deserve better. Thank you for your time.

Hello, Mr. Mayor. A long-time listener, I don't comment very often, but I did want to come down and see what everyone was going to say tonight. Mr. Mayor, I think the last time I was here, I criticized you a little bit for how you were handling the homeless issue at that time. I apologize. I didn't give you any solid solutions to actually work on. Two years later, though, I do think the situation has gotten a little bit worse. I don't know what the counts are, but I think that there's at least one or two more homeless in the city now than there was two years ago or four years ago. In any case, one, I don't think this is an emergency issue. This issue of homelessness is just as urgent yesterday as it is today. It hasn't changed. I think there's no reason to start this new ordinance if passed in any urgent manner. Number two, I think we're trying to solve too big of a problem. This is homelessness and this is just the city of Jackson. The best we can do is try to help this issue a little bit, try to help the people that are here. I think anything that tries to solve this issue is just going to be too much. So I think we need to look at small solutions. What can we do to help this population and what can we do to help our city? Two ideas I had to come up with that. One, I think if we want to offer people a solution to their possessions, we need to offer them a place where they can store these. One idea would be like an outdoor storage, like a bus locker idea where people could just, The Amazon package drop-offs, if anyone has ever seen those. You could easily have some storage lockers where people could just sign up for this with as easy as a fingerprint. And they could go up and have just a small area, if it's a square foot by two feet high, enough to put their winter coat, enough to put their paperwork there. Social Security card their drivers licenses. One of the key things that I learned when I was here on Council was that property lets people accumulate wealth and one thing that homeless people don't have is any property. They don't have any place to put their wealth to begin to accumulate it. So a storage solution, a locker that we're offering can help in that regard and that's also offering them a solution rather than enforcing a solution. of saying, we'll take your stuff and store it. How about we look at a solution where we can give them some place to store it? Secondly, if the library doesn't work as a good location for an encampment, if public property doesn't work, the other choice is private property. What options has the city council looked at as far as allowing limited camping on private property? If a homeowner wants to go and help somebody, does a homeowner in the city of Jackson have the legal option to go down to the library and say, you, do you want someplace to sleep? Come home, I'll put you in my backyard tonight. We should let people help each other if we can. Thank you.

John Hugh Public.

Thank you. The John Hugh Public is because It's been held as a very chilling effect on hearings if people feel they have to identify themselves to speak, all the more so if it's a situation where some employees, some people are sometimes proactive in expressing not liking what was said through their jobs. First of all, we're talking about homelessness What is home? And I hear people talking about shelter. This is something people would love in their hearts. They've really wanted to resolve this. But what is home? Home isn't a space. I could have three square meals a day, dental care, climate control, safety. I'm in prison. I'm not home. Home is a welcome belonging that's shared. Home is a concept that you belong and you're welcome here. And rather than belonging for decades, not because people mean wrong, what do we do when we say there's homelessness? The first thing is we isolate you. We insulate you. Here's the community and there you are homeless. I think we could try to open our ideas up about what home is. Some people have homes, have shelters, and they don't feel like they belong, so we have to define the difference between home and lack of shelter. I kind of say lack of money equals houselessness, lack of love equals homelessness.

As far as in the community too,

I've heard a number of times, this seems like an us and them. It seems like the most important thing is how things appear. Let's not let your problem become our problem. I've heard people say, these people, those people, they, these people. Our community, people are people. Our community, we can embrace people to belong where they are. As far as specifically the ordinance, Is it a criminal investigation if someone comes up to me, an officer, and asks me to identify myself and identify my property? Do I have to identify myself? Is that a criminal investigation? And do officers know the difference between a criminal investigation and their deciding to move you along? As far as things dealing with due process, we can all pretend due process is a right of citizenship. Everyone knows it's a commodity of commerce. And so if I am wrongly cited, and as long as you say you're not going to jail for that, and I can't afford an attorney, what happens? So let's be honest about this. This has a lot to do with economic lines, with lifestyle leprosy. If you live like that, I need to stay away from you no matter what I hear on Sundays. And with- Thank you, Mr. Public. Boy, that's quick. Thank you.

John Hand.

All this action going on, you almost fell asleep? No, not really. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I haven't been to one of these in about 10 years. This is good. My name is Dr. John Hand. I'm a clinical and forensic psychologist, licensed in Michigan. And I've had a private practice in Jackson, downtown Jackson area, the corner of Wildwood and Stewart for more than 55 years, until I closed it up a couple years ago. So I don't live in Jackson right now, but I'm very familiar with it. I've seen Jackson come and go, up and down, all kinds of things here. I could tell you lots of stories. When I first heard about what they call Article 10 and what was proposed, particularly about the $50 fine against people who have not two nickels to rub together, I was disgusted and appalled that the haves, what I call them the haves, which is all you guys, are doing this, weaponize basically the system against the have-nots. These people, the campers, the encampment up there by the library, these are people, each of them has their own story. Each of them has their own journey, why they're there, how they got there. None of them want to be there for whatever reason. They don't want to be there. They don't have a place to live. They have no jobs, no money, no nothing, no place to take a shower, no place to brush their teeth, whatever. The only thing a lot of them have is a dog or a cat that they're taking care of. And a couple that I talked to said that they had a place to stay, but they wouldn't allow them to take their pet. So they weren't gonna throw their Fido on the street and have whatever happened to Fido. So they were going to, they chose to just be homeless and take care of their animal. which I consider integrity, actually, and not throwing their animal out. People, whatever decisions are made here, I think you need to consider the animals that are up there. There are quite a few animals up there. And these animals are important. Animals are an adjunct therapy or primary therapy and lots and lots of modalities of counseling across the board. And this is the only probably love or sense of respect a lot of these people are getting up there. And to deprive them of their animals, to take them away, to move them on, throw the animals out, this is going to create a whole lot more problems, not just for the animals who are now going to be running the streets, but for these people now who are going to wonder you know, what happened to FIDO and so on and so forth. And you've created another problem, too. That's anger. You've created a whole bunch of enemies here. And already this community is very, very divisive. I think what you need to do is come up with a plan, a big plan, a total plan, not just focusing on the encampment, not just focusing on this. This is just a symptom of other things that are going on. You need to look at the big picture, and you're not looking at the big picture. That's about it.

For the sake of time, if you plan to bring one of these slips up here, I would do it now because I'm not going to accept any more after asking if there's anybody else for the sake of time and the respect of everybody's time. Thank you. Last call, Ms. Cathy. Better get it up here, Ms. Cathy. Better get it on up here. Okay. Jordan Moon.

Good evening, Mr. Mayor, City Council, concerned citizens of Jackson. My name is Jordan Moon. I live at 998 East Butterfield Highway, Charlotte, Michigan. I am a Jacksonian born and raised. I am a parent. I'm a sibling. I am a United States Army veteran. I am a worker here in downtown Jackson, and I am here in opposition to this ordinance. Before I enlisted in the military, I was sleeping in my vehicle because I had nowhere else to go. I know what it feels like to have no roof over your head, to worry about where your belongings will be, and to feel invisible to people who are supposed to care, support, and serve you. I joined the military to escape that situation. No one should have to enlist simply to obtain stable shelter and employment. The city has stated that this ordinance is intended to protect personal belongings, maintain accessible public spaces, and avoid criminalizing homelessness. However, the ordinance itself tells a different story, providing only two hours notice before removing property and not meaningful protection. It places an impossible burden on people who often lack transportation, reliable communication, or a secure place to relocate their belongings. Maintaining ADA accessibility, ensuring the public's safety, and keeping sidewalks clear are legitimate public interests and concerns, but these problems can be solved. without confiscating personal property under unrealistic deadlines. Those goals can be achieved when we decide to address the root cause and not just attempt to address the symptoms. This ordinance establishes a limit requiring all personal belongings to fit within a 32 gallon container. In 2021 in Garcia versus City of Los Angeles, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit held that cities may not summarily seize and destroy property of unhoused individuals simply because those belongings exceed a prescribed size. The court recognized that the size of a person's property does not diminish their constitutional possessory interests. National organizations that study homelessness have likewise found that confiscating personal property, issuing fines, and relying primarily on enforcement does not reduce homelessness. The city has described this ordinance as part of the whole community approach, yet the ordinance focused almost entirely on enforcement while providing no corresponding investment or answers to services necessary to reducing homelessness. Mr. Mayor, you yourself admitted that solving homelessness takes resources and that this will not solve the root cause, yet the budget that I have overlooked here, the budget 2026-2027, reflects that resources are going everywhere else except to helping the people on the streets. The most effective response to homelessness is not confiscating the few possessions people have left. It is investing in housing, treatment, and services that help people regain stability. I served my country. I wore the uniform. I took an oath to protect the Constitution, the same Constitution that this ordinance violates. Jackson has the opportunity to choose a different path. Mr. Mayor, City Council, do the right thing and vote this ordinance down. Thank you.

Sally Fountain.

Hello, I'm Sally Fountain. I live at 951 Loomis Street, Jackson. And I've been president of Jackson all my life, except a couple years that my husband went into the service and we lived in Texas. Actually, what I've heard here, I've never been to a council meeting ever. So what I've heard here tonight has really stirred me. I see issues on both sides. I'm not here telling you I'm for one thing and I'm against another thing. I'm for people getting together and talking about things and trying to find a solution rather than trying to minimize work that's already been done to try to help. people here and i've run a lot of uh committees myself so i know what you all up here are feeling right now because you wouldn't be up here if you didn't want to try to help this city and it really kind of kind of well doesn't make me mad but i feel sorry for you because People out here are telling you all the things that are wrong and only a few people are telling you what maybe you could do to make it better. And I don't think they realize that because they think something's got to be one way or the other, that it has to be their way or the highway. It doesn't work like that when you're working with a lot of people. Majority rules. And I think that people have a hard time with that because we all want what we want when we want it. And so it's kind of, I don't know. I just think that we should try to be coming up with something that we think, which some of these people did do. My thing is with the homeless people, to tell you the truth, I don't think one way or the other about it. But in thinking about it, I think that it would be a good idea to give them a place of their own. Now, are they gonna stay there? Will they stay there? Will they abide by rules there? I don't know. But I'm ready to try it. But I can bet you that Because of the climate of the country now is people want to do what they want to do. And when you start telling them, okay, you can have what you want. Go there and live and you can have your tent, you can have excess amount of, we don't care how much stuff you bring there. Just live there. I wonder how long that would work. I really do. Because we all got to learn how to come to a solution together and not be pointing fingers at one another. Thank you.

Jimmy Minnick.

Hi, Council. James Minnick. I'm from Columbia Township. I own several parcels in the city. You know, thank God for opinions. Everybody gets one. And when nobody has to carry the weight of a decision, everybody is only too eager to give their opinion. And when you're spending other people's money or money you don't have, it becomes even easier to come up with solutions and programs and ideas and new committees and new budgets. But as well as that, when you're in a position of power or you have to make a decision, I do believe that you have to let everyone exercise their right to tell you because you represent the constituents and the voters that got you to where you are. But what got you to where you are is your firm belief and conviction in who you are and the knowledge that it takes to be the person in office that you are. Everyone out here, including me, think that they're an armchair city council person or county commissioner or township supervisor or trustee. And I've ran for a few of those offices. But I'm not going to sit here and tell you that you have to believe my opinion. And if I do, it's because if you're going to believe someone else's opinion and my opinion is just as equal, I do want you to believe mine. Having said that, when you have three people in front of you and you give them a decision and just say, hey, I'm just kind of wondering how you guys feel about this. I got to make a decision. One's going to tell you yes, one's going to tell you no, and one might tell you they don't care. I hope you listen to them. But at the same time, there's information that you have that we don't have, that these people don't have. And when you make your decision, you've got to do it for the 31,000 people that live in this area or the 7,000 people that happen to be in your ward. So when people come up passionate and if there happens to be 50 saying one thing and only two saying another thing, I hope you listen, but I hope it goes in one ear and out the other and rolls down your back. And if there's any data to glean in that, we'll do that too. Really take that in and change your opinion and evolve if you need to. But otherwise, all's I'm telling you is what my opinion is based on my ignorance. So I hope that you have listened to everyone tonight, but I hope you don't make your decision based on what everyone said tonight. Because again, it just takes a little bit of maneuvering to even stack a deck to get somebody to come into a meeting like this and even... put one position out there more than the other. So even as I say that, the hundred people out here, I ain't never seen most of them. They don't come to a meeting when we pass a budget or do anything else. But now you get one issue and all of a sudden everybody wants to tell you how to run your government. Do what you feel. It's my government too. It's my government.

Order. Order. Order. Order.

Order.

Order. Meetings up here. Meetings up here. Thank you. Thank you. We still got people who want to speak. Jessica Bates, Wimpy. Jessica Bates, Wimpy. Jessica Bates. Last call. Okay. Barbara Burns. Barbara Burns, Bums, Burns, Barbara. Barbara going three times, no Barbara.

Is somebody out there?

Sorry, I see a blue slip coming in.

Is Mike getting her number? I think so.

Is she coming on down, Mike, or no? Yeah? Okay. Is it Cornisha? Yes. Come on down.

Thank you for offering to listen, although I believe you said it was last call already. Alrighty. My name is Quanesha Derling. I've personally never attended one of these. I'm pretty not into any of this, but I would like to voice opinions since that's what we're here to do. I live in the Blackstone Apartments downtown. Right across the street is where the encampments are, as well as the library. I have daughters who I go to the library with and we enjoy downtown. And so I felt that I do have a place to speak since I this is affecting me single like directly, you know, day to day and night to night. I would like to just express that, although It is the responsibility of our government to provide steps and ways for there to be growth and what we're here to do, evolution, evolve. We shouldn't still be out on the streets. We should have places and procedures in place to help you. But it is also in the responsibility of the homeless, of the person. I have suffered housing insecurity myself And I did what a person does. I got a job and I saved and I found a place to live. There's a difference between suffering from housing insecurity and choosing things that do not support you to grow, I will say. I feel it as a responsibility on both ends and as like, government you know it should be on you to take the first step but also so these people to have respect and be mature people grown folk figuring their things out so I did read it briefly as I walked in and I do agree with what you are trying to do there should be no limits to me enjoying my city because of others' negative choices. That's all I suppose.

Amador Ybarra.

Got to be patient tonight in the city of Jackson, huh? My name is Amador Ibarra. Good evening, everyone.

Good evening.

I live in Summit Township. Promote the general welfare is one of the core reasons the Constitution of the United States of America was ordained and established. We can all agree people should not have to sleep on our streets. We can all agree people should have a place to keep their personal property. We can all agree there is an urgent need to address community concerns over people sleeping in tents on city property. Just how those goals are met and what that process looks like is the task at hand. I'm asking the council to consider these requests when establishing a process to meet these goals. Work with those people most directly impacted by the entire situation from a sovereignty lens. All stakeholders should have a voice. Solutions from people closest to the problem are the most effective and successful. Work with community organizations and affected stakeholders willing and able to participate. Local nonprofits as well as some businesses and corporate partners will all benefit from a sustainable solution. Do not make matters worse by taking people's only means of shelter and all of their personal property without any type of pathway to success. Do not make matters worse by constructing additional financial burden on people who are facing difficult challenges in our community. Any fees or fines for people in this situation will only serve as a barrier. Please take the focus and intent to build a plan that will cause no further harm to people in our community facing challenges to maintaining housing. Please gear solutions towards success for all stakeholders. The entire community has a vested interest in the outcome of this process, as demonstrated by the packed room tonight. Well, I am confident your path forward in this urgent matter will be challenging and complicated. I'm also confident this council is capable of developing public policy that provides success without causing more harm to our vulnerable community members. Helping community members with this struggle while reducing harm is your path forward. Thank you.

Hello, Patrick Carter, Jackson, Michigan. I will read fast. Okay. Housing stuff is inhumane without prioritizing housing people. Housing people without wraparound services to lift them up out of that life situation is irresponsible and not sustainable longer term. Residents in action strategy is to address the underlying root causes while offering emergent services That is why our plan is to open the community shelter community resource center Rhea does not own Jackson's homeless issues And contrary to Laura Slotke's comment tonight, we were not obligated contractually with the purchase of the school to reopen the homeless shelter. However, our mission, vision, and values is aligned with doing just that, and that is our plan. There has been a lot of work around behind the scenes to make that happen. In fact, there are multiple renovations going on in the school right now. The city does not own Jackson's homeless issue alone. You were actually dragged for two years for partnering with us on the homeless project. Collectively as a community, we need to address homelessness together. There's a lot of misinformation floating around, so I want to clarify that all of the accounting has been publicly shared with city council via required reports. regarding other financial issues with Rhea. Yeah, I'm here. I am here. No one has come to me and asked me questions about our financial situation. What I can share with you is that locally we have not been supported. We've done quite well at the state level and at the federal level, but we have not been supported locally. And we would like you to reframe that question as to who has been supported for supporting housing and homelessness. I can name somebody right now that raised $11 million in less than six months right down the street from us. And why have they been silent? Did they even come here tonight? Did they come here tonight? Why isn't there more accountability on that end? We are here to support the community. We have been here to support the community. Right now we're still doing street sweeps. We deliver food. But Residence in Action will not open. And I will say that again. We will not open unplanned, under resourced, underfunded, and under supported. Thank you.

That will conclude our citizen comment portion of the meeting and we sincerely appreciate all of your comments and concerns tonight. Is there a motion for a break? Yes.

Motion for, what are you looking for, 10? That's perfect. 10 minutes or 10 o'clock?

10 o'clock.

Let's call it 10 minutes and then it'll be 10 o'clock.

So that's the motion is 10 minutes. 10 minutes. All in favor say aye. Aye. We have just reached our 10 o'clock mark, which means our break is now over. At this time, I'll be looking for a motion and support to return from our brief break. Support. Support. Support. It's been moved and supported for us to return from our break. All of our council is back. All in favor say aye. Aye. All opposed the same. We are back. And now if you would please refresh your civic clerk. So that way we can make sure that everybody can vote. If you are still interested in having an additional conversation, if you could just take it out so we can make sure we can hear. And we are concluded with our citizen comment portion of the meeting. Again, we do sincerely appreciate not only those who decided to come out and speak, but those who also decided to stick around. We know it's late, but this is an important issue and we appreciate your time and appreciate your presence here with us tonight. This time I'll be looking for a motion in support on the consent calendar. So moved.

Support.

It's been moved and supported. Any comments, questions, concerns, discussions on the consent calendar?

No.

Seeing or hearing none, and just for public consumption consent calendars items under section 8, items A through what's the last letter on there? L. L? all get voted on all at the same time, unless there's an objection to that from someone on council. Seeing that there is not, the question is posted. It's been both moved and supported. Clerk has posted the question. We'll tally and display the vote. Consent calendar passes, and that brings us down to... other business which we have none that brings us down to new business item a to start conversation i'm looking for a motion and support to consider and adopt an emergency ordinance pursuant to section 9.6 of the city charter being article x to chapter 17 nuisances of the city code of ordinances entitled regulation and un regulation of un unattended and access personal property, tents and attachments in public areas. Support. It's been moved and supported. I would like to open the floor for discussion. I want to make sure that we give everybody equal and fair opportunity to speak or weigh in, ask any additional questions that they may have, raise any additional concerns, especially after we've heard from our Citizens on the matter. Anybody want to start?

Mr. Mayor, I guess I will start. Yes, ma'am. Wanting everyone to know that Hearing some of the messages or the comments that we received today, there are a couple of things that I would like to bring forth. Should we have some solutions that the city can come up with. We are not the answer to all the problems, all the things that are going on. The city does have some, I guess, responsibilities. We've done it before to help the homeless but i guess my concern my biggest concern is if the ordinance takes place in two days where will these people go they're going to go down the street down the road some of our partners in the community that have resources that could be helpful to these individuals where are you and what can you do to assist us in in taking care of the encampment that we have right now um at at the library um i don't want the businesses not to think that i'm not thinking of you as well um you know i don't have the downtown businesses, but some of the people in the downtown area have spoken with me in regards to their business, their storefronts, their customers not being able to get to them, or they have people outside of their restaurants or stores. know so the safety of the business owners in the downtown area specifically we get a few in the dollars trees and stores around uh the south side you know there are a few people that kind of hang up there um too but i know it's not as large as and the encampment isn't there so i guess i'm looking for um the city to maybe help with some resolutions before we actually enforce and the people have nowhere to go um but i'm also looking for the partners around town the money that's going into the different organizations and agencies and all of those things and you know if if you have A METHOD TO HOUSE SOME OF THE PEOPLE? THEN WHY AREN'T YOU? I MEAN, I'VE HEARD THE STORY ABOUT BACKYARDS, USING YOUR OWN BACKYARD, YOU KNOW, FOR SOMEONE TO DO, TO STAY WITH YOU. SO I GUESS I'M LOOKING FOR A CITY ATTORNEY AND CITY MANAGER to see if we could come up with some of the resources and partners to come to the table to help with this. Because it's not all a city problem. I mean, it's happening in the city, but it's not just our problem. It's everybody's problem. So I don't know if that's an option to bring this back at a later time with some resources, but I would resources and solutions and that goes for many of you that may have spoken tonight you might have access or you may know someone that has access or there's resources that you're connected to that you know the City Hall is not the only resource available to people that need need to be housed and i also know that you know some of the individuals um now no one's spoken it to me that is homeless but i think they should be here the ones that are if they have no interest in wanting to be housed because that's the situation too there are some that just don't want to be housed they want to be where they're at so Well, as I said, I don't know that for sure, but if there are some that feel that way, I'm getting nods and I'm getting no's. So I don't know for sure, but if there are, those people need to let us know that they're not interested in being housed. So that's just my input for now. And from what I've heard, what I've read, you know, and trying to be helpful all the way around miss sally i really appreciate your comments tonight um and then amador uh some of the comments that that we have because i'm i'm i'm doing this you guys i'm gonna be straight up and honest i don't want to see the homeless people uh unhoused and I also don't want to see the city get blamed for the whole problem because we're not and then the agencies that have the access or if you have a building that you're not utilizing and you want to house you're quick to tell City Hall to open up their room or their first floor or second floor to do so if you have it let's come to the table with it

Thank you. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I was just waiting for you to finish.

Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

Yes, ma'am. Council, other comments, questions, concerns?

Mr. Mayor. have a lot of thoughts going around especially after all those public comments and i do i was listening to everybody and i do understand i think a lot of where they're coming from i would like to say i think i would like to say um if this ordinance was proposed as an ordinance that helped and fixed homelessness in the city of jackson i would agree that it would not work that is not what we're proposing here um You know, I don't necessarily want to out this person because they sent us an email and weren't here tonight. But I do want to remind everybody, and I assume we all read the email from the official at the Interface Shelter, who's pretty high up, who basically said, I hope you vote in favor of this ordinance. You have a job to do, and we'll do ours. And if you disagree with that email, if you think I misread it, I welcome your interpretation. Thanks.

Thank you. So I'm not in favor of the ordinance. I walked in here with that assumption. I appreciate all the comments from the citizens. I don't think the ordinance is created to solve homelessness. However, I don't think it's solving the problems that it's intending to address either. think for the people that are living and working downtown who are concerned about safety it's we're still going to have a homeless population downtown they'll just have their resources confiscated and so I There's lots of reasons why I don't feel like this is going to be helpful, useful. I heard several times people talking about being a band-aid or a temporary solution on a much bigger problem. I just don't see that this is going to be helpful in any way.

So my understanding is a super majority. We need six yeses for this to pass. Just listen to everyone reading the ordinance and everything. No, it's not a solution to the problem. I think the solution is going to be government, private sector working together, nonprofits working together trying to find a solution. What this does, like it or not, it It just, I guess one thing I have, we brought it up, was the fee, the fine, and no one has $50 to pay a $50 fine. And I know that sounds like a judgment call. I don't know, maybe it is, maybe it's not, but I believe it'd be a judgment call, but I don't believe no one can pay that. I'm concerned about the animals and people who have animals. I guess for me, I'm more concerned about the emergency ordinance. I'm not against it, but I'm not against the ordinance, but I'm probably against the emergency ordinance of it. Instead of doing emergency ordinance during a regular reading, if it passes, then we have another 30 days. then it passes then we have enough so we talked about September October before anything take shape but by that time with the organizations out there with the collaboration that city manager already working with different organizations and having conversation can work out something come out with an idea come out with a plan that can go forward whether we solve I think we'll solve more that way than now, than doing it now, than just trying to do the emergency ordinance. I understand it, but I just feel like doing a regular ordinance, doing a regular vote get it there, and if it passes, then continuation. Wherever it passes, don't pass. I think still with the city manager, with what he's doing behind the scenes with meeting with different organizations, I think you can come up with a plan or work together. I always said it comes down between. We need private sector big time involved, and we don't need all nonprofits involved, just a few who have, you know, respective voices who come to the table and sit down at a round table and just really talk about it and work it out. So that's how I feel.

Thank you, Vice Mayor.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. First, I want to thank everyone for coming out to address this concern collaboratively with us. Your voices are important. And we have a responsibility to respond appropriately. I walked into this meeting tonight with an open heart and an open mind to hear from our community. We heard a lot of yeas as well as individuals that feel like this is just going to exacerbate the situation that we're currently facing. I said this at another platform that this is a human crisis. These are humans that are dealing with situations that for various reasons have not found an immediate solution. Freddie, thank you for your comment regarding the emergency aspect of it. I think that we should table this. meet with our stakeholders and come back with a solution. If we execute tonight, they're gone tomorrow to a different location. To do nothing says that we're okay with it. We see the problem. We are acknowledging that this is a problem, but there's no one action that can mitigate or reduce with the downtown, the heart of downtown is currently facing. I met yesterday with stakeholders. I met again today with stakeholders. We must have a plan forward. I support us tabling this until we can come back to the community with a realistic solution. We have 39, 40 plus churches in our community. Where's our pastors? Where's our first ladies? Where's our individuals that genuinely care about impacting positive change? This isn't an easy decision. It's not easy, but we can't make it alone. I appreciate everyone for being present here tonight. And I think we have a responsibility as elected officials to hear from the voices of our constituents. I heard from individuals that have experienced homelessness. I went down to the encampment and invited individuals here. They're not here tonight.

Okay.

Not all of them.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. Excuse me. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Y'all can let her know after the meeting who all was here. It's okay.

We need them here because they are the ones that are being faced with this situation.

Council member Hunt, did you want to finish your comment? I'm sorry.

At this point, I'm just asking that everyone take in the comments that were delivered tonight. Council, Arlene, you said like this, we're waffling back and forth. It's not an easy decision. No, it's not. Let's ponder this a little longer. Come back before the council. Make a decision with a plan forward, a comprehensive plan forward.

I think we have to postpone. Couldn't table it, though.

Mr. Mayor. Let everybody get a chance to comment.

not to be too much the council parliamentarian. It sounds like there is a suggestion to table, but not a motion. I would, before anybody says anything, the motion on the floor is to enact an emergency ordinance, which would require six votes. It is very clear that we do not have six votes. I think that what Councilmember Hunt, I think that the impact that you want to have is to slow this down so there can be more conversations. Is that correct?

We have a meeting scheduled in a couple of weeks with multiple stakeholders.

So yes. Yes. Okay, great. So then what I would suggest is if the maker and seconder of the motion would withdraw the motion, probably an option that could make sense. is to consider the draft ordinance as first reading, which then gets us to, I think our next meeting is August 18th, would be second reading. In basically a month between now and then, there could be plenty of meetings. And at the second reading, whatever language changes people would want would be able to be enacted. But I think that if we were to table an emergency ordinance and then bring it up again as an emergency ordinance, I don't think that would accomplish what the spirit of what you want.

Could I make a comment before anybody makes a motion? When I first heard about the ordinance, I was a absolute no. Right off the bat, as someone who has personally experienced and been homeless, the last thing that we need to do is target those homeless individuals and then punish them in some way or cause additional harm like what was mentioned. However, before making a decision, I spent three hours with the city attorney to clarify all of the concerns and questions that I had. And so before we decide to postpone, and you don't have to answer this question because you don't owe me an answer, but what I am curious about and what I think you should ask yourself is if we're going to postpone this, what in the ordinance is it that you would recommend to change that you would even want to reconsider it? I can understand if you're saying no. I'm not in favor of it. I'm a no. I'm a no vote. Great. Vote your conscience. Let's vote on it. if you're saying something needs to change in the ordinance and you want to see it back again, say that, what is it? So we can discuss it. So everybody can say, you know what? That's something I didn't think about. That's in the ordinance that I think we should evaluate further. But if you're trying to stall because you think we need to have additional services to provide for the individuals who are homeless, we will never pass this ordinance ever. We, will not solve homelessness in this room. It won't happen. We will not solve homelessness in this room. That is not what we are attempting to do. But we do have a couple of choices of what we can do. We can do nothing. We can put it off to the next meeting. We can put it off a hundred meetings. We can call a hundred stakeholders to the table. We can invite the entire homeless encampment. We can meeting this to death and it won't even get voted on in the next umpteen years. We can do this. What's proposed and what is proposed to address is the protection and sharing of our public spaces. I am curious. There's been some mention, Mr. Attorney, that there's 11 ordinances on record already that could do the same thing we're attempting to do. Do you feel like that's accurate? Is there something different or something that I'm missing?

Certainly not 11 ordinances that would speak to this particular issue. There's not an ordinance on the books that addresses the encampment that we're talking about that precipitated this entire discussion, the healthy debate, the public coming in today, 47 public commenters and two no-shows. So, yeah, this is, as you rightfully articulated, this is an issue that doesn't have an easy solution to it. It just, that's simply the case.

So that that's, that's a clear enough answer for me. I don't know if anybody else wants to ask him more about if there's ordinances that overlap or anything like that. My point is we can do this, we can do nothing or we can do something different. If the answer is to do something different. Again, what I'm curious of what in the ordinance that is addressing the sharing of our public spaces, which is what we're trying to address. This does not criminalize homelessness. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. But I asked that question. So let's clarify it right now because I hear you. Right. And that was my question also. So, Mr. Attorney, can you explain to us how we can make sure that we are protecting those who are most vulnerable and not criminalize poverty or homelessness through this ordinance?

So the nomenclature is important. So let me give you a simple example. A crime versus a civil infraction. A criminal violation versus a civil infraction. Think of your speed ticket. Civil infraction. No one's going to jail for a five-over speed ticket. No one's going to jail under this ordinance.

I'm sorry. Either you're going to listen or we can just stop. I'm sorry. We can't do the outburst. I just can't. It's almost 11 o'clock at night. I can't do the outburst and listen at the same time. Oh, I am listening. Thank you so much. Thank you. You had your turn.

To go back to your earlier question about other ordinances on the books. We do have obstruction of public's rights of way general nuisance ordinances. Council will remember you adopted a nuisance gathering ordinance that the police can attest really addressed an issue that we're having on parking lot number nine in particular that that was adopted, not without some controversy, and that seemed to be effective. The general nuisance ordinances are, nuisances typically, what's a nuisance, right? So is someone sitting at a park bench minding their own business, is that a nuisance? It becomes more difficult in terms of enforcement. This ordinance does not impose a criminal penalty in the sense that anyone can serve any jail time, a misdemeanor offense, a misdemeanor versus a civil infraction. So in that sense, any violation is a quote unquote crime, but it doesn't ever penalize anybody through incarceration. And secondly, the civil infraction as proposed is a may, not a shall. In other words, officers can use their discretion, their experience to understand has been articulated here. And let's not be naive. The people at the encampment outside of the Carnegie Library, the other street homeless, they don't have $50 to pay a civil infraction fine. That's not the idea of the ordinance. We're not trying to criminalize to poverty by giving people tickets we simply want a tool in the toolkit to potentially be able to deal with these large excess personal property situations that have led to 47 people at the call to the public in this healthy debate i'm going to go back to something very quickly mr mayor that councilman robinson said about giving us the timing and the runway. You guys are the policy makers. You guys have the difficult decisions to analyze this. This is proposed an emergency ordinance because by virtue of this entire chamber being full, it feels like an emergency, right? You have basically three options. This councilwoman Robinson was saying, is there additional runway? Are all the people that have a stake in this, all the people that had great public comments and articulated on both sides. I was trying to take notes as to we were landing 60, 40, 50, 50 on where people stood on this. And it's I analogize that kind of like in a mediation in you know lawyers dealing with clients when both clients kind of walk away feeling like they didn't quite get everything they wanted that's probably a good solution this isn't perfect you could pass it as you could table it to august 18 the next council meeting you could pass it up or down as an emergency ordinance and then see if in the intervening 30 days to Councilwoman Hunt's point if the community stakeholders step up to the plate and we can come up with some solutions to solve the immediate urgency which is the encampment and get people out here that aren't just talking the talk but walking the walk not walking out of the council chambers after the council member comments but showing up talking to their ward representatives and coming up with a solution here. And again, I apologize for being a bit verbose here. I'm often asked specific legal questions, but this is a human question that when I drafted the ordinance, it weighed heavily on me. And I heard what Councilman Gunn said clearly in terms of what do we do? Is it going to solve homelessness? Of course not. It's another tool in the toolkit. If you want some additional runway to analyze this and debate it, that's your prerogative. I would only suggest and put out in the public space that everyone who has an opinion on this also help us be part of the solution here to address it because it's not easy it's not easy there's no great answer because we're not the only city that's having a meeting this full of people that care and are stakeholders and want want to cure homelessness and walk their kids to the public library for story hour without being accosted, we all get it. So that said, again, your options are pass it or not. Table it to the 18th. Pass it for a first reading to give yourself some runway to see what happens in the interim. And that's kind of where we're at.

I mean, and I'm, I'm completely okay with going whatever direction the will of council is. I just would be confused about, um, again, what is it we're looking to change if we're passing it as a first reading, what in the ordinance are we looking to change? Is it the two hours? I think we've, well, at least I know I clarified that was one of like the most immediate questions that I had. Why is it only two hours in the downtown area? I got some answers on that. Um, I mean, I had literally three hours worth of questions on this particular ordinance that I had that, that I had concerns for, uh, that were all addressed. And I would just be curious if they're like, what, what would we want to see different in this ordinance? Because again, if we're waiting. because we would like to see who's gonna step up. Where are people gonna be able to go? Who has additional housing? What's going to happen? I don't know if y'all recall or remember the last time. I mean, it was brought up probably 15 times in the 50 comments when we spent money last time trying to help homeless people. And so is that the road that we wanna go back down? is another question because if we're going to start making suggestions on where people go, then we also better start making out a check because it's not free anywhere. It's not free anywhere. And if we want them to have the resources, and this is what really breaks my heart about this because I feel like, and I've been debating all night whether I should say this or not, but I'm going to say it. If the homeless people were still under the bridges, in the woods, behind the buildings where people could not see them, we probably would not be having this conversation right now. That's the sickening thing about this. So I think if we're not going to look at this as we are trying to make sure that our city of Jackson properties and walkways are accessible for everyone, then we also better be prepared to look at the budget and shift some money around because it's not going to just be an ordinance that we have to come back and pass. We're going to have to look at how we actually can financially support whatever organization is saying that they can help. And even then it will not solve for the majority of the issues that we heard about tonight. Things that are just flat out against the law already accosting somebody. We already passed an aggressive panhandling ordinance. It's still happening. There are still going to be homeless people, no matter what we do. But this is designed to make sure that our public accessible, public owned parks, walkways are accessible to everybody. That is what this is designed to do. The moment you mix it with more than that is the moment that we are asking to take on more responsibility in the issue. And so I don't know what else we're looking to change, add, or do. But I think that we really have to ask ourselves, what is it? And what further is it that we're trying to do? If this doesn't cover the bases, if this does too much, what is it that we need to see changed? What is it? That's the only thing that I would be curious about. I want to give everybody else also a chance to comment. I know I commented more than once, but this is a little touchy issue for me. But I want to make sure everybody is heard on the issue, on whatever you may be feeling.

Mr. Mayor? Yes, sir. I have five things.

I'm ready.

Okay. One is I would, in a world where we were going to write this ordinance, on the fly tonight. There's five kind of questions and I can just list them off. One is the the two hours thing I do get and somebody raised to me today. Like what if somebody is at and for the love of God, I don't know the exact situation of everybody in the particular situation we're talking about. I think our job is not to make a law or an ordinance for the situation we're talking about, but for the situations that could arise under this ordinance. And so a situation that Maybe it does happen with one of the individuals that is currently in front of the library, maybe not. But a lot of homeless people work. Two hours is typically shorter than a work shift. So I think that that is a question that I have is, can that be longer? And what is the sweet spot there? Another question I have is about the fine. And I appreciate that the language as drafted is It's an option, not mandatory, but I think is that something that we could have as a fine as for some kind of aggregated violation or a second offense or something like that? Third is I think the question that folks have about pets is I think reasonable, although I love animals, but I don't think they're as important as people are, but I do think it's worth having a conversation about. Um, fourth is someone had asked me a question of what happens if somebody gets into the shelter or figures out some kind of temporary housing situation where they have, uh, kind of stabilized themselves, but can't really take back their property yet. And the 30 day clock runs out. I think in practice, what our intention would be would be to give them some kind of extension, but I think it would make people feel better if there were some kind of extension language written into the ordinance. And then fifth is another reasonable question that I think somebody had was, can there be some kind of exemption for the impounding of property specifically for what is defined in the ordinance draft as essential personal property like medication, identification, things like that? So those are the five things that I would want to get into. I am wide awake because I'm used to not sleeping because I have a three-year-old. It's going to become her birthday probably before we leave here tonight because it's tomorrow. But I'm happy to get into this now. I'm also happy to take this as first reading of a regular ordinance. I'm also happy to, you know, as my understanding is, we can pass this as an emergency ordinance if there were six votes, which I don't think there are, and come back and amend this at a future date. So I think we've got options here. We are not bound by whatever we do tonight. It doesn't have to be what we do forever. But that's where my head is at, Mr. Mayor, in response to your question about what might be changed or what questions folks have. Thank you.

A couple questions back, if I may. No, you may not.

Yes, of course, sir. Please proceed.

Would four hours be better?

I think four hours would be better. I would feel more comfortable with four hours as a guy who's never had to be in that situation and does not have any background in social work, but I'd be interested in the opinions of other people.

Next question I'll just pose to the attorney. Is that something that we can do to get, well, I'll say this and then I'll ask the question. I think that the way it's written provides opportunity for our officers to treat people like human beings.

You're talking about the fines part.

The fines, right? The moment we define when a fine is imposed, then it becomes, this is when you get a fine. If your stuff is taken in the third time, it doesn't matter the situation, you're going to get a fine for it, right? I think the way it's written now, provides opportunity for us to treat people like human beings, right? And it's not mandatory for someone to get a fine. It's discretionary on that officer or whoever's interacting with that person. I am okay with asking the question if there is a way for us to provide some guidelines on what that looks like if someone is fine.

Yes. So the way this is proposed, and again, we're, we're moving much faster under emergency ordinance consideration than the normal ordinance process. And I, I know manager green has had numerous meetings as, as have Iowa city staff to, actually look at the implementation. It's one thing to pass the ordinance. The ordinance is only as good as its enforceability and how city staff carries it out. To your point with some humanity on the part of the first responders, which would be the police officers on the street, and then building in some notifications. So the idea is the ticket you receive is pretty comprehensive in terms of what was actually taken and stored the time, the officer involved, and a variety of other information so someone could retrieve their property. So we want to make it robust so it's not just like their property is gone. They know where to retrieve it. They know where to go to get it. They know the hours, as Manager Green alluded to, the 7 to 5 time period to be able to retrieve your personal property. And we don't want to discard someone's possessions. We know that may be all they have. I want to speak briefly to the 2 hour window. The way the ordinance is written in Section 17 to 18, it's a not less than. 2 hours and it is subject to it again. As I mentioned several hours ago now, the administrative regulation that Mr Green would sign would designate the specific downtown area to find currently is the DDA district and that subject to his modification. So if we do 4 hours, if we do 5 hours that it's the ordinance is built to have that flexibility in there as to the pets no one's taking any pets pet is not it i guess technically legally could be personal property but that's not what we're talking about under the definitions in the ordinance no one's taking your pet and storing it in a in a giant storage container a shipping container that's that wouldn't happen um I have to give some thought to the beyond the 30-day extension. I think there is also built in the ordinance the ability for someone who comes to claim their personal property to talk to whomever is working the door so to speak and say hey maybe if i come back next week and jonathan knows this we extend grace all the time for for people that have extenuating circumstances we're not going to watch the clock and after 30 days just take everything to the dump but again these are things that can be tweaked and modified and that's why we're having this healthy debate mr matt thank you yes

Um, in, in response to, to council member woods concerns, um, and, and to, uh, and to the city attorney has suggestions and legal advice. Um, what I would like to do, and I'm prepared to make these motions as, uh, is to remove any language about an emergency ordinance within the ordinance as it's construed, which will give us time. which will essentially pass this as a first reading, give us the time and the direction to the city attorney to make any updates we may vote on tonight, um, including the removal of any emergency language and making this an emergency ordinance. Um, I think to council member Wood's point about the two hour notice, um, I guess to piggyback off that, but then also it sounds like clarified by the city attorney. It's not a two hour notice. It's no less than two hours. It's no, yeah, it's no less than two hours, right? So that's the backstop. The city manager can make it 48 if he wanted. You just can't make it less than two hours. I don't know. I guess I don't know necessarily know why that language is in there. If it's necessary, I would be okay with simply making it 24 hours across the board, regardless of where it is in the city. makes it clean, makes it understand more understandable for people. Um, but also I'm just open to suggestions and then making these motions. Um, I think we can strike the fine personally. You know, I've had conversations with the city attorney about this and he's, as he mentioned right now, we need some kind of, he seems to think we need, I don't know, I don't want to put words in your mouth necessarily, but some kind of teeth sometime kind of enforcement to this. I think taking somebody's property is enforcement enough. Right, taking somebody's property and storing it against their will in place of this civil infraction is enforcement enough in my eyes. And as the person who wrote this law, that's how it was originally written. I agree with extension language, if that's feasible, and giving direction to the city attorney. And I very much agree with some kind of language regarding exemption of essential personal property as defined, whether that's medication or what have you. Again, that's not a motion, that's me just spitballing here. But that's where I'm at. Thank you.

Counsel, anyone else?

Would you like me to share what I've been working on behind scenes?

Sure.

So it's been referenced by a couple of council members that there is work going on behind the scenes, and there's actually a lot of work going on behind the scenes. And I think it's appropriate right now as you guys consider what motion you're going to make and what that's going to look like. Give credit where credit is due. Tasha Carter from Residence in Action floated an idea to some stakeholders about hosting a community forum on homelessness. And with the idea being to explain what each agency can do. what their boundaries are as far as budget, the type of situations they help with, the situations that are unable to help with, to define from experts who work in that space, to define what issues exist and then delineate from their perspective as people doing the work, the gaps that exist and then to open a dialogue with what can be done to fill the gaps. This forum is scheduled to happen sometime in August. It will feature or is intended to feature the leaders, the leaders, the actual people leading the organizations who are committed to ending or committing to addressing homelessness. To name names, or I won't name names, to name organizations, they're the ones you're all thinking of. It's the Interfaith Shelter, it's AWARE, it's Home and New Vision, it's Residence in Action, it's, who am I missing? Community Action Agency. Community foundation so that's the type of that's the type of speakers and perspective that we want to have at the forum to actually hear From an industry expert saying like this is what's happening in Jackson. This is how we fit into it Person next to us they can say this is what's happened this we agree. That's what having you Jackson. This is how we fit into it So it's quite clearly Displayed for all to see the people who believe we're over-resourced, the people who believe we're under-resourced, the people who believe there's no problem, the people who believe there's massive problems, to delineate all those things and look at it squarely at the same time so we can start to get a basis from which we can all work from. Because there have been great, been a lot of opinions tonight. Sometimes those opinions, well, I'll just stop at that. We need to hear from the experts. We need to hear from the people actually running the organizations. There are gaps, but we need to know what those gaps are, and then the community must be challenged to help fill those gaps. And that means exactly what you think it means, money. Persistent, consistent support over time. This isn't one and done. Nothing in life is ever one and done. The point of all of this is to do exactly what I said, delineate what's happening, showcase the gaps, highlight the wins, and be honest about where we're falling short and honest about what it's gonna take to fill that. So sometime in August, I'm really hesitant to put the date that's been floated out there because things are gonna change and then all of a sudden you can't believe anything Green says. So it's sometime in August is what's being debated. So hope that helps you as you're making a decision as to like what's happening behind the scenes now that we've put that out in front of everybody. And thank you, Tasha, that was a good idea.

So my, my, my concern is, um, just timeframe. Um, I think, I think that's great. That's work that probably should have been done when we were talking about people freezing outside. And then we put them in hotels two years in a row and then invested in the TA Wilson. We have tried to have these conversations, I think in the past, I'm grateful to hear that they are happening, excited about that meeting, that forum coming up. I think it opens it up to the public for them to have some more insight for those who choose to attend that. If they're able to, I think that'll be great. Um, I don't know that what will come out of this will solve what, what will come out of that will solve for this, what we're trying to solve for right now. And it just leads me back to the question of if the, if, if the ordinance is not wanted, that's one thing. but if we're looking at changing something, what is it that we're looking at changing? Uh, I know we've discussed a couple of things that people had concerns about, um, that would make it a little bit more palatable, um, to individuals. And again, this is not an easy answer. This isn't an easy situation whatsoever. Um, but I think that what concerns me is, is time. Um, because like we'll get through August, we've got, one meeting in August, and then comes September, and then we are up against the elements. And then we're trying to solve for getting people off the street before the snow hits the ground. And this is the same situation that we've put ourselves in before. And then what are we committing ourselves to as a city? What are we committing ourselves to? And so I think we have to ask those questions. And again, some of these issues will extend past the 100 and something days that i have left but again this is a concern for me before being mayor and it'll be a concern for me after being mayor people being homeless um and i think it'll be a problem that'll exist after i'm gone it's been a problem since before i got here i don't think we're going to solve for it right and i think it's great if we put our effort in to do what we can uh But where does that leave us on this particular issue that we are trying to solve for through this ordinance? That is just my only thought. I think that's great. I think that meeting will be great. I just don't know how that solves for what this ordinance is written to address. You're almost on move. Any other comments, questions, concerns?

So, um, I'm not for postponing. I don't have no desire to table this. So that's how I feel. I have no desire to table this as it shouldn't be tabled. Uh, and I don't know what we're doing. We vote on emergency ordinance. Are we going to do a regular ordinance? So, uh, I'm just so we just going what's on the agenda emergency ordinance.

We've had a couple people that have asked for that to be removed, Freddie.

There's not been a motion for that to happen. I mean, Mr. Attorney, correct me if I'm wrong, but you did say we can pass this as an emergency ordinance and then we can still make changes and tweaks to it as needed.

That's correct. Any ordinance can be modified or tweaked. It would go through the normal first and second reading process if you were to do that. From my perspective, if you're going to make wholesale changes, you probably want to see what those changes are and it's hard to do it on the fly and pass it as an emergency ordinance. Tonight, if there are those three or four changes that were articulated previously. So, again, you could pass it as is. You could table it to the 18th. You could pass it for first reading, as Councilman Dancy alluded to. And it would come back for a second reading on the 18th. We'd see what would happen between in the intervening month relative to our community partnerships and everything Mr. Green alluded to. And then you rightly said if it was a normal ordinance, it would go on the books September 17th that were to pass and whatever final version would be adopted.

Mr. Mayor?

Yes, sir.

The question for the city attorney, this is a little inside baseball, but if we were to vote on the motion that was presented in the emergency ordinance and that fails, could we in theory immediately pass it first reading, go to second reading after that? Yep.

You could do that because you're considering two separate motions, one being an emergency ordinance. If that fails, you could consider the same ordinance and simply try to pass it for first reading as a quote unquote normal ordinance under the normal first reading, second reading, 30 days thereafter. It goes into effect. And the reason you could do that is because you'd be taking out the emergency declaration portion of it. It would be a separate ordinance altogether.

We can do that. I do not see the point because it is very clear that there are fewer than six votes for an emergency ordinance. And so I think that would be a waste of time.

I move that we strike the emergency language in the ordinance. The section at the end, I forget the numbers. You're going to have to forgive me.

I think we'd have to move to take the current motion off the floor and vote on that first. Can we do an amendment?

It would be an amendment. I move that we amend the motion to pass this ordinance without the emergency provisions laid out in the beginning of the ordinance and in the last section of the ordinance, which number escapes me because it's almost 11 o'clock.

support that motion to amendment okay motion and support on the floor to amend the motion that was on the floor madam clerk can you read what the amended motion would be as you understand it would be the amendment would be to pass the ordinance and

as a non-emergency ordinance for the first reading and then it would come before council at the next meeting for a second reading final adoption giving you all opportunity to make any type of changes to the language as it stands right now thank you any comments questions or concerns to the motion on the floor

Seeing or hearing none, if you will first please refresh your screen. We've been talking for a minute. Just refresh your screen so we can make sure everybody's voting. Apparatus and civic clerk is working, and then the clerk will tally and display the vote. This is the vote on the amended motion, not the motion itself. This is to amend the motion.

Yes, this is the vote on the amendment.

So we're voting to make it not an emergency ordinance, just the first reading is the simple emergency makes it come back for.

Yeah. Yeah. So this is just to amend the motion. We'll vote a second time to actually approve that motion. OK.

We get to understand why you guys are voting. That's our life. But everybody don't get it.

Did everybody get the?

Yeah, so we're first voting on just taking an emergency. And then we'll vote on the ordinance. You didn't get it, OK?

Mr. Mayor, to clarify for the members of Council, a question that I am hearing from outside of the Council. What we are voting on right now is to convert the draft ordinance from an emergency ordinance to a regular ordinance. After that, we would vote on the ordinance itself. This is merely to amend what we would be voting on. We're amending the original motion.

Thank you for clarifying that for council. Thank you. I appreciate it.

Despite that, that's what we're voting on. Thank you.

Okay, the amendment from it being an emergency to a first reading has passed and now there is a motion on the floor to pass the first reading. That's what we just submitted was the motion that was on the floor. Not a motion is still on the floor and now we are voting on to pass this as a first reading. It will come back in August for a second and final reading and adoption if it passes. And we're going to affect 30 days after that.

Just for clarification, when this comes back for the second reading that interim period, Council has the opportunity to make suggestions. And so this ordinance is coming back with changes.

If it could. Yes. this, this would be the opportunity for any amendments, changes, deletions, corrections that you would like to suggest that infraction, the silver infraction, the two hours omitted language about an extension included the possibility, but those are in the motion that's been made. So no, so it wouldn't come back as that unless someone from council goes to Matt, which we've had that discussion here. But if it's going to be a part of the motion that passes for him to make those changes, we have to make that motion. We have to include that in the motion to say, hey, the motion, like if I was going to make the motion, I'd make the motion with the amended and recommended changes that were proposed in the four areas that were mentioned to come back for a second reading. That would be the two hours to four hours to strike the fines to... change those four things in the amended version that comes back for second reading. Anything in addition to that would be through discussion that we have as a recommendation with city manager or city attorney between now and the second reading.

My wheels are turning because by that time we should have had that

community event and i would like to see language in this ordinance that supports our plan forward with our stakeholders that's gonna be a whole different another conversation yeah to to mr mayor to clarify we could have another debate and and make language amendments tonight or We could work with city staff between now and August 18th to produce amendments going into August 18th or we could make amendments during the meeting on August 18th and any of those three things would be fine or some combination of those three things would be fine and permissible and that is the process.

Yes. Thank you. I would be looking for a motion tonight to pass this as a first reading recommend to our city attorney to change the two hour window to a four hour window. Provide some definition around how the fines are actually going to be imposed. And then also to add some possible language around there being like maybe a 15 day extension with communication past the 30 day window for someone who might need an extension past the 30 days. I would be looking for a motion. So now somebody can be like, I move that motion and then somebody can second it and we can have it come back as a second reading with those changes that were recommended.

Should we go with the amended motion and then make another motion? Or amend the amended motion?

I'll move that motion with, you know what? I don't.

Okay. Good idea. Cause we have, I forgot. We have a motion on the floor. We do.

And I think we might be better off doing this and then having a motion.

So the motion on the floor, the motion on the floor is to pass this as a first reading. for it to come back at the September meeting. That's what we just voted to amend the original motion that's on the floor. Any questions, comments, concerns on the motion that is on the floor? Seeing or hearing none, the clerk will tally and display the vote.

All right.

And the motion passes 5 to 2. It will come back to our August meeting is when we would see it next. Mr. Wood, yes.

Thank you. I would make a motion directing staff to work on language to bring to us on August 18 or before. And with, excuse me, Mr. Mayor, it is distracting for me when members of the public are speaking.

It's distracting for me also, and I apologize.

I would make a motion to direct city staff to bring to, bring for our consideration at the August 18th meeting, amended language addressing the following. And this is in no particular order, but number one, Changing the two hours. Number two, addressing the fine situation. Number three, an extension to the 30 days. Number four, exempting essential property or essential personal property or whatever the language in the ordinance was from the impounding.

Number five, the fines.

Fines was two.

Oh, my bad.

The number three in my original list was Pat's, but we're not. That's not really part of the ordinance.

I'm cool with that. Just wanted to make sure you weren't leaving it out.

I'm going off mic. That's my motion. And I hope somebody wrote it down.

It's been moved and supported. Any questions, comments, concerns about the motion? Seeing or hearing none, clerk will tally and display the vote.

Hmm.

Mhm. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm sorry, Madam Clerk.

You ain't no me.

I got a little lost in the sauce for a second. My bad. Motion passes 5-2. We will see it back next month to have some further discussion and a second reading on the ordinance. Alright, that brings us down to item B. I'm looking for a motion and support to approve a resolution to enter into a grant agreement with the State of Michigan Historic Preservation Office for the certified local government grant, authorize the mayor to execute the appropriate documents and authorize the city manager and or grant coordinator to sign and submit any additional grant related reports and forms. It's been moved and supported. Any comments, questions, concerns?

This will be for how many? How many will be trained? Or I guess I'm just looking for a background, a little more.

It's training the HTC board. So training them up on how to make decisions as a board. So there's seven of them, I think. Seven.

Yeah.

Local training? What do you mean? Like we're going to the HTC board members are going to have trainers come in and train them on how to be coming into. Yeah, I don't think there's any travel associated with this. It's just it's all in-house like come here. Good.

Seeing or hearing no other questions, the clerk will tally and display the vote.

Oh, okay.

I'm sorry. Item pass is unanimous. Brings us to item C. I'm looking for a motion to support to approve two resolutions for changes to the standard lighting contract with consumers energy for the replacement of street lights at the intersection of Robinson Street and Merriman and at Robinson Street at 303 Robinson Street. Authorized city engineer and the city clerk to execute the appropriate documents.

So move Mr. Mayor.

It's been moved and supported. Any discussion on this item? Seeing or hearing none, the clerk will tally and display the votes. Item pass is unanimous. That brings us down to item D. I'm looking for a motion of support to approve the proposed resolutions and restrictive covenants for the Swan Bravo Opportunity Zone Business LLC and ACI WFH Jackson LLC workforce housing developments and authorize the city attorney to make any necessary minor modifications prior to signature and or recording.

Some vote. Support.

Moved and supported. Comments, questions, concerns? Seeing or hearing none, the clerk will tally and display the vote. Item passed is unanimous. Brings us down to item E. Looking for a motion and support to approve the purchase of one used two megawatt Caterpillar model 3516 C backup generator from McAllister Caterpillar for installation at the city of Jackson wastewater treatment plant for a cost of $731,000, which includes $680,000 for the power unit, approximately 35,000 for half of the cost. of a special permit hauling from Indianapolis, Indiana to Jackson, Michigan and $16,000 for a five-year extended warranty. It's been moved and supported. Any questions about this almost million dollar generator?

Yeah, what do we have now?

One from Walmart. No, I'm just playing. We have nothing.

We have nothing.

We have nothing. We have exposure to a highest end.

Does this solve the water infrastructure issue in Jackson or is this simply a $731,000 Band-Aid?

Have me in the first half.

This is this is it is my memory right that this is some it's got like 75 hours on it or something. Yeah, this is a great deal on the cheap and yeah, great deal.

Seeing or hearing no other questions, the clerk will tally and display the vote. This is what happens when y'all keep us here this late. Everybody starts getting a little bit goofy.

Thanks for staying, Todd.

Item passes unanimously. Let's buy some salt. Looking for a motion and support to approve the purchase of 4,000 tons of road salt from Detroit Salt Company at a cost of $99.62 per ton for a total amount of $398,480 for the 2026 and 2027 winter season. through cooperative bidding with the Jackson County Department of Transportation. So moved. Support. Moved and supported.

It's crazy you can buy a ton of salt for $100.

$100. And just think about how much you get for $10 when you need it. I was just thinking that. It's different salt. I got half on a ton. We just got to find somewhere to store it. Um, any other comments, questions or concerns? Seeing or hearing none, the clerk will tally and display the vote. Item passes unanimous. That brings us down to item G looking for a motion and support to approve payment of the invoice from region two planning commission. for local share cost of Jackson area comprehensive transportation study or jets unified work program for fiscal year 2026 and the amount of $28,856 in accordance with the recommendation of the city engineer and authorize the city engineer to sign the local funding resolution.

So moved.

It's been moved and supported. Any comments, questions, concerns? Seeing or hearing none, clerk will tally and display the vote. Item passes unanimously. Moves us to item H. I'm looking for a motion in support to approve the sale of city-owned property located at 916 Gorham Street, Jackson, Michigan, 49203. to AgriCon LLC for the sum of $300. Approve the purchase slash development agreement. Authorize city manager and city attorney to make minor modifications as needed and authorize the city manager to, or excuse me, city manager and city attorney to execute the appropriate documents necessary to complete the transaction. So moved. Moved and supported. Any questions? Seeing or hearing none, the clerk will tally and display the vote. Passes unanimously. That brings us down to item I. I'm looking for a motion in support to approve modifications of the street assessment relief fund management policy to make relief available to all property owners, regardless of land use or income level. So moved and supported comments, questions, concerns, Mr. Matt.

Yes, sir. Um, I'd like to, uh, I guess I don't know how I want to do this actually, but, um, if the city attorney thinks we have firm legal standing to do this and just see yes or maybe is fine um i would like us to remove the language within this proposed uh within this that includes non-residential properties i'd like this to only apply to residential properties whether that's non-owner occupied or or not um I don't want it to apply to commercial or industrial properties is what I'm trying to get at. Can we do something about it?

I would recommend against that for a couple reasons. One, when we went back to the drawing table, and I got to give credit to our city treasurer who first came up with this idea. It's been a lot of different hands, city engineer as well. So when we looked at the funds that are available, and another big piece of the puzzle that council should be aware of, you can only get the relief if you are right with the city in other words you've paid all your property taxes your current on city income taxes you don't have unpaid parking tickets so the basis to include everyone is one to be uniform across the board so there's not any claims of disparate treatment Secondly if we have those commercial property owners that would avail themselves up to the $5,000 cap And it's only 5,000 whether it's commercial or residential Those commercial property owners would also be impetus or an incentive for them to make sure that they pay maybe HP fines and fees or inspection fees on for landlords and so that was the thought process behind it and I think it may be When treasurer mutton kind of crunched the numbers it may be a an income producer for us, actually. That if you want to play, you've got to pay. In other words, make sure you've paid everything up. And then over time, if it's a 10-year assessment or 15-year assessment, you get your discount. So that's the rationale behind including everyone.

I'll rescind my motion. If I made a motion, I can't remember. No?

OK. Are you here right now?

Any other comments, questions, concerns to this change? I think the only question that I would have is, have we looked at how this will impact the longevity of this assistance that we're trying to make available to people?

We have. That was a major question. I give a lot of credit to City Treasurer Nanette Munson for working out the math on that. And if you want to explain how you arrived at your calculus and decision, Nanette, you can go ahead and go for it.

Yeah, I probably don't need a microphone. I'll talk loud. So we actually looked at the numbers and looked at the interest rates over those 10 years. And like Attorney Hagerty said, we're hoping to get more income Oh, they can't hear on TV. Sorry. We're actually hoping to generate more income than we pay out. So we're incentivizing people to get straight with the city, not only in property taxes, but we've noticed a lot of property owners and city residents are not compliant with their income taxes so we're hoping to as these assessments come up not only will we educate our residents but we'll get them right with the city and the incentive is that they then participate in the relief so what we're hoping to do is after summer tax season which ends on november 20th uh we'll then take a moment to look at the financials of all of the participating residents of the ganson and bloomfield assessments if they are right with the city we'll issue a refund check that first week of december and if they are not they'll get a letter stating so We did not anticipate the calculations that we did. We had an initial investment of about $250,000. We calculated with a 3% interest compounded interest rate over time. If the city continues to fund at a $50,000 annual rate, we will not run out of money.

Thank you. Any other questions, comments, concerns? Seeing or hearing none, the clerk will tally and display the vote. Passes 6 to 1. And that brings us down to item J. I'm looking for a motion and support to approve the interagency agreement between the city of Jackson and Leone Township for plumbing and mechanical inspection and plan review services and allow the city manager and city attorney to make minor modifications as may be required.

So move.

It's been moved and supported. Comments, questions, concerns.

THIS DOESN'T CREATE A HARDSHIP ON OUR STAFF? NO, WE HAVE GREAT FLEXIBLE STAFF, CAN EASILY ACCOMMODATE THE WORK. THE NUMBERS ARE STRONG FOR LEONE TOWNSHIP, BUT WE CAN DO THIS.

has uh leone township's board taken a position on this yet are we extending an olive bridge first or no they've approved it we're good to go okay great uh will there be any members of their board here to undermine that decision okay just checking uh seeing or hearing no other questions the clerk will tally and display the vote

Item passes unanimously. That brings us down to item K. Looking for a motion to support to approve change order two to the drinking water state revolving fund phase two water main replacements contract with Dunnigan Brothers in the decreased amount of $916,922.89. to balance the contract quantities to match the quantities placed in the field and authorize the city manager and city engineer to execute the appropriate document. Moved and supported. Any questions, comments, concerns?

I might step in it a little bit. So I'll look at Troy while I say this. I believe this project netted the replacement of 1,000 lead service lines. Is this this one? I didn't bring my notes from our meeting.

No, this is the one where we placed 4 inch water mains and all associated lead services, but we probably did hit probably 80 lead services as part of this, but improve the 4 inch water mains for better fire flows and service.

That's good. That's good.

Seeing or hearing no questions, the clerk will tally and display the vote. One more time.

One more time for good measure.

Item passes unanimously brings us down to item L. Looking for a motion in support to approve the lot purchase agreement between Green Development Ventures LLC and the city of Jackson and authorized the city manager and city attorney to make minor modifications as necessary. It's been moved and supported. Any comments, questions or concerns? No relation.

Okay.

You had to clarify that right now.

You never know.

I know it. I know.

I don't blame the three words conflict of interest come up all the time around this place.

See it here. None. The clerk will tally and display the vote.

It's still time.

Still still time left. Okay. That squares where our business we are now at Council member meeting or council member comments. Uh, let's start with vice mayor.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. Just letting everyone know there will be a community meeting, neighborhood meeting, whatever you want to call it, next Tuesday. Oh, it's Wednesday. So next Tuesday the 28th at 6 o'clock at Loomis Park. I mean at Boo Center. So come one, come all. We're not talking about... encampments, but you can come out if you'd like to come out and have fun, enjoy with us. We're going to be talking about improvement, what's going on in Second Ward. We're going to be talking about the... Help me out, man.

Master plan.

Master plan. You know, so you can yes and no, what you like, what you don't like. And there will be food. I'm serving fried chicken and watermelon. Yeah.

Are you frying chicken?

That's it.

Okay. Council Member Wood.

Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Thank you to city staff. Thank you to members of council. Thank you to the members of the public who came out here and gave comment today. 47 is a healthy number. Our average is usually around 10. So this is good. It is helpful, I think, to hear the diversity of opinions that folks have. And I think that Most people were able to recognize that this is a complicated issue and there are good people who view things differently. And so I would commend everybody who was able to engage on a human level with other human beings, which was about 45 of the 47 commenters, I think, which is a pretty good ratio if you think about it. I would still like to see an ordinance banning those crypto fraud kiosks that we heard about last meeting. I think that would be nice to see if we can root out some of that. I WANT TO CONGRATULATE DPW AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT DEPARTMENTS FOR A COUPLE OF AGENDA ITEMS THAT I THOUGHT WERE BIG WINDS THAT DID NOT GET A LOT OF OXYGEN TONIGHT. THE GENERATOR I THINK WAS A COOL SNAG ON THE USED MARKET, AND THE HOUSING WORK THAT THE CD DEPARTMENT CONTINUES TO DO IS REALLY IMPRESSIVE AND AMAZING, AND I APPRECIATE THE WORK THAT EVERYBODY IN THOSE DEPARTMENTS AND THE OTHER CITY DEPARTMENTS DO EVERY DAY. I, uh, we just are, we, we there's seven people up here. There's a couple of hundred cities. Like we are not going to solve the root causes of anything up here. We're just not, we are, uh, I'm sure we'd love to, but that is not what we do. We are in the bandaid business. This is a bandaid operation. This is a small municipality. That is what we do. That's our job. It sucks. And I think that there's a bunch of other organizations who have their own Band-Aids. And hopefully, we can make some kind of Band-Aid quilt or less tortured metaphor for how we can address some of these issues. I don't think there's anybody there. I think there are two people tonight who disagree with the notion that this is a real human issue and that it's complicated and is going to involve a lot more resources than we are capable of providing as the city. And we just are not equipped or the right type of organization to do every piece of that. And so I think that's something to bear in mind, as well as what I think was pointed out, which is that there's another 100-year-old building across the street that is supposed to be working on these social and human services issues. And I think that their public comment is probably a little bit different. And I think that we could duplicate some efforts i think and it would not be unwelcome um i i'm gonna i'm gonna call it there i appreciate everybody's work thank you so much and uh looking forward to a midnight snack thank you mr mayor councilmember gunn

I APPRECIATE EVERYBODY COMING OUT TONIGHT. HUGE ATTENDANCE. I THINK IT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUE. AND I AGREE THAT WE CAN'T SOLVE THIS PROBLEM ON OUR OWN. AND YEP, SOMETIMES IT IS ABOUT PLYING BANDAIDS, BUT I JUST DON'T THINK THIS IS THE RIGHT ONE. hit the nail on the head, Mayor Mahoney, when you said we wouldn't be having this conversation if those encampments were anywhere else in the city. And that is part of the reason that it's concerning to me. And I agree. And I also just think You know people are still going to be downtown. They're still going to be panhandling. They're still going to be harassing people. All the public safety issues. It's not going to address those issues to compensate their their. their belongings, everything that they own. And so I appreciate that we are slowing this down, that we're taking a look at it. But, yeah, I just don't agree that that's the right solution. But I appreciate everybody's comments. I appreciate that we can all have these conversations and agree to disagree and look at potential other solutions that are both short-term and long-term.

Councilmember Hunt.

Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Thank you everyone that came out tonight. We appreciate your comments. I too understand the complexity of this issue and my hope is that our local nonprofit organizations and every other organization that has a vested interest in our community will show up and reimagine how they are operating to give back to our community and our residents that are in desperate need.

Council member Robinson Thank You mr. mayor I do want to thank Matt and and Jonathan for their work on this on this project I'm one of those individuals that try to make everybody happy things all worked out and I know it's not possible but you know just thinking we're gonna move everything down the road and still have the the problem with homeless and I don't know. Try to figure out a way to be as helpful as we can. And I do hope that our community partners come to the table. You know, I sometimes feel the city is quick to be blamed or quick to be said to have the solutions to the whole problem and we can't because we don't have all of the abilities that, you know, money is coming into the state and other agencies. So hopefully they all come to the table and offer help. You know, I'm not sure how many are encamping on the area, the library, but, you know, We can spread that out amongst different groups and agencies. That would be great. Thank you to the staff and everyone for your hard work and dedication. I think that's it for me tonight. Thank you.

COMMISSIONER TARULLO. Councilmember Forgrave.

COMMISSIONER FORGRAVE. Nothing from me.

Good work tonight. Thank you to all of the 50 people who decided to come and give public comment tonight on this issue that we knew was going to be split the way it was. Or at least this is exactly what I assumed was going to happen, is that it was going to be split. The last thing on that subject I want to make sure that we keep in mind is that Um, over this time that we have between this first and second reading, um, the thing that important that I feel like is important for us to, to, to remember is, um, the part that we play. Uh, so like when I look at myself as far as like running for office and being in office, when it came to reelection, uh, the biggest thing that I always keep in mind is that there's always going to be problems. What I have to find out is this my set of problems to address. In this situation, I think we really need to recognize there's always going to be problems, especially around homelessness. There's always going to be someone who is unhoused who's going to need help. What I would like us to make sure that we remain focused on is the part of helping that situation that we are responsible for. And then if there's additional, what additional do we want to be responsible for? because I can guarantee you that community partners will come to the table as long as they can leave the table with a check. If they wanted to help them, I'm willing to, like, go out and say it. If they wanted to help those folks, they employ right damn now. They could be helping them right now. It's what they do on an everyday basis. They can house them now. They could help them now. They could provide services now. We don't need to set a building up or a room up where they can go to get these services because those services exist and most of those people work in a capacity that they can and are in most cases are responsible for going to those people, not those people coming to them. I hope I'm proved wrong. I pray that I am. I pray that whatever happens in that room, they come together and they decide we go help. And this is how we're going to help. I just have a lot of doubts that that's what's going to happen. What I don't want to see us do is kick the can down the road and addressing an issue that has been made very obvious that's happened in our community. I don't want us to kick the cane. That's my big thing. Um, Happy birthday, baby Joe. I will always remember her birthday because it is the day after my niece's birthday. This is the first birthday in 19 years that I've not been able to tell my niece. Happy birthday. So the last thing that I'll leave you with, be gentle with people because you don't know what they're going through personally. including the seven individuals who are elected to represent this city of Jackson. Everybody has a life outside of this life. Everybody has people that they love and they loves them outside of this room. We dedicate an astronomical amount of time to give into this community because we love it. That's the bottom line. Even in cases where we see that the pathway is different or have a difference of opinion at the end of the day, I'm positive that the seven individuals up here all what what's best for the city of Jackson and have dedicated their time from one day to the next at this point, being here to try to work on resolving those issues. And I think that we have to make sure that we keep that in mind. Um, happy birthday, Mia. I miss you. I love you. And, um, That is where I will leave my comments for tonight. Mr. City Manager.

I will be brief. I just want to recognize some city staff members. I want to congratulate firefighters who competed in the Firefighter Challenge in Valparaiso, Indiana earlier this month. Daniel Peterson, Casey Pollans, David Sherwood. ALL REPRESENTED JACKSON FIRE DEPARTMENT VERY WELL, COMPETING IN THEIR EVENTS. I KNOW THERE WERE SOME RECORDS SET BY ONE OR TWO OF THOSE GUYS, AND THEN I ALSO WANT TO CONGRATULATE THE RELAY TEAM THAT THEY WERE IN WITH FIREFIGHTERS FROM TYLER SMITH, THAT'S GOING TO BE WRONG, BUT FROM IOWA, AND THEN MARCUS JONES FROM MINNESOTA COMPETED WITH OUR TEAM IN THE RELAY EVENT AND ALSO SHOWN VERY WELL. CONGRATULATIONS TO ALL OF THEM ON THAT. They compete doing firefighter things, wearing all the firefighter stuff. So if you wanna Google it, look up the firefighter challenge, it's impressive. And then I also want to, you guys know I'm doing this, hopefully it's okay, congratulate promotions at the police department. I want to recognize Andrew Fugate and Brad Elson, who were promoted to acting sergeant. And I know when the chief gets them acting right, they're going to be made full sergeants. So congratulations to those two great employees, officers, and leaders in the department. And we are grateful for their service to Jackson, all of them. Thank you.

For most to adjourn.