Planning and Development Board - Regular Meeting

Good evening everyone. This is the November 24th meeting of the Planning and Development Board in the city of Ithaca. Um, we call the meeting to order at 6:04 p.m. Um, welcome to everyone who's here in person and to our board. Um, can I ask you to go around and introduce yourselves, please? Andy Roman, member of the board. Jenny Sedcliffe, member of the board. Max Feifer, board member. Elizabeth Goden, member of the board and vice chair. Peggy Tully, member of the board. Nikki Sarah, environmental landscape planner and staff to the board. Emily Patrina, chair of the board. Lisa Nicholas, director of planning and development and staff to the board.

And you might notice we have a new member. So, if I can circle back to you, Peggy, just give us a brief um background and and welcome.

Hi. Yeah, I'm Peggy Tully. Um I am a resident of the city of Ithaca. I've lived here for about 20 years. Um, I have a master's degree in landscape architecture and um, a background in um, real estate development, affordable housing, um, urban design, community design, things things of that nature. And, um, I've worked for the city. I worked as I was the um, sidewalk program manager, the previous sidewalk program manager. and now I work for Cornell for the student campus life as a um manager of space and long-range planning. And um I'm really really excited to be here. I'm really interested in pedestrian experience, particularly how private property meets public property. And so I'm very very happy to be here.

Great. Thank you so much for being here. Um okay, we have emergency exits at the front and the rear where everybody entered. Uh, in the case of an emergency evacuation, we're to take one of two exits that I mentioned and wait at the trees on the same side of the street on South Kauga and Green Street. We do not cross Green Street unless absolutely necessary. Those with restricted mobility in the event of emergencies, it is best to move to one of the stairwells and first responders will arrive to aid you. In the event of other emergencies, you'll be notified at that time. We want everyone to be aware of their surroundings and offer to help when it is not to your own detriment, as you're your own best advocate. Women's restrooms are located on the first and third floors and men's restrooms on the second and fourth floors. Um, we have a medium busy agenda tonight. Um, and we want to attend to all the items on that agenda in a thorough and deliberate manner. To that end, I would encourage our board members and members of the public um to adhere to um a short comment and discussion, keep it as concise as possible. Um Nikki, are there any changes to our agenda tonight?

There are none.

Great. So, moving into our first project. Actually, we do public comments. Um this is the time for the public to speak about any item for which there is not a public hearing tonight. We do have a public hearing for Creekide Plaza Major Subdivision. And we do have a public hearing for the Citizen at 602 West Buffalo Street. So, those are our two official public hearings tonight. If there's anyone here who wishes to speak on something else other than the two that I mentioned, now would be the time. Anyone in the audience? Seeing none, Sam, anybody in the waiting room? Okay, then we will move right on to Okay, minutes. We'll right on to um approving the October 28th minutes. So, may I have a motion to talk about the minutes? Jenny moves and Elizabeth seconds. Um, any changes or discussion about those minutes? Seeing none. Okay, let's do a show of hands. Um, all in favor of approval of minutes. That is unanimous. Thank you. Um, okay. Now, we'll move into project review. We'll start with this subdivision review. Um, Creekide Plaza major subdivision and parcel reconfiguration. Do we have our applicant with us in the waiting room?

Hi Phoebe, are you there? Hi, I'm here. Hi. Okay, I can hear you. I audio. Hello. Good evening. There we go. Welcome. Um, would you like to give us a presentation?

Uh, I'd love to. Thank you so much. Uh, first of all, thank you so much for having us here. Um, my name is Phoebe Parkin. I'm the senior parallegal for Chase Properties. Um, we purchased Creekide Plaza uh a little over a year ago and we've been doing some um some upgrades to the property and we have uh are requesting to do a major subdivision of the property. We currently have four parcels that we own. Um we'd like to slightly reconfigure and create some new parcels. So we would be going from four parcels to six. The purpose of this um is primarily to um even up the parcels a little bit to make it a little bit of an easier split between the buildings. This helps us down the road with tax parcels uh excuse me with with uh taxes going back to our tenants. Um and then also we've uh been looking at the potential for redeveloping what used to be the um Topps gas station out front along South Meadow. Um, and there you have it.

Great. Okay. So, before I dig into any questions or discussion, um, we have a few things to approve here. Um, first, let's declare lead agents. Um, that is this orange sheet. This is the declaration of lead agency. Um, can I have a motion to move? I see Elizabeth moves. Andy seconds. All in favor? Let's do a roll call vote. Um, Andy, yes. Jenny, yes. Max, yes. Elizabeth, yes. Peggy, yes. I'm also a yes. So, we are your lead agency. Great.

Um, let's do the public hearing. Um, can I have a motion to open public hearing? Andy moves. Jenny seconds. Um, all in favor of opening public hearing. Okay. And so, do we have anybody wishing to speak? Sam, in the audience or online? We don't. Okay. Motion to close public hearing. Andy moves. Jenny seconds. All in favor of closing public hearing. Public hearing is now closed. Okay. I'm going to hold on the seeker. So, let's go around and ask any questions or make comments. Um, Andy.

Yeah. Thanks, Phoebe. Um, I was at the PRC meeting. I think you answered all my questions then. So I don't have any questions. I think it's straightforward. Thank you. Thank you Andy. Now I want to know what your questions were. I am also in case those would be good questions to know. Well, actually my only question was a comment. It was to thank Phoebe for her clarity in her presentation. So

um I you know I guess this also seems pretty straightforward to me. I'd be curious from um Lisa and Nikki if there's anything that that that we just if there's any unknown unknowns or known unknowns that we don't know to ask about sort of when we're thinking about this particularly in like a commercial space. So, we had talked at was it at PRC about um the previous owner had promised to do some uh improvements to the intersection right next to the gas station and some of it got done and some of it didn't get done. So, we talked about um having them do this as part as a condition of subdivision. But, uh Phoebe then uh there was a whole work plan. Uh Phoebe then um shared the information with me that most of the work has gotten done. and they are going to move the signs back so that it'll increase pedestrian visibility and um there's really no other issues with this.

Sounds good. Nothing else from me. Thank you, Phoebe. Thanks, Jenny. Max, I think this is all uh very straightforward. I think you've got all the approvals from the city uh that they're well documented in the materials that we had and I think the rationale for doing this makes sense to me. Um I have no objections and no more questions. Thank you, Elizabeth.

Thanks everyone. Um I would agree with what's been said. The only um advice I would give you is although I've looked at the material, um it's always nice to bring up a drawing uh to speak to uh when um I don't know if anyone else wants to see that, but I'm okay with what has been proposed thus far. Thank you, Peggy. I I don't have any questions about this. Again, I agree with what everyone has said. It's very straightforward. I'm really happy to hear that the pedestrian improvements are going to be happening and I it seems like a reasonable um Oh. Oh, good. Oh, yeah.

Oh, there. It seems like a very rational approach to leasing and what why you're doing it. It makes sense. Thank you. Thank you.

Great. I also have nothing to add. I think it makes perfect sense. Um so sounds like we are fairly convinced. Um let's move forward with this seeker negative declaration in green. Um can I have a motion to open the discussion? Um Peggy, sorry. Jenny, now we have more names. Jenny, Jenny moves. I think I saw Elizabeth second. Um all in favor of Do we have to do that? Discussing it. H show of hands to discuss. Great. Any changes to this or questions about the NG deck? Okay, let's do a roll call vote. Um, Andy, yes. Jenny, yes. Max, Elizabeth, and Peggy,

yes. And I am also a yes. So, you have a negative declaration on the seeker. I think we can move right into um preliminary. We're just doing preliminary subdivision tonight. So we would do final, right? Because it's a major subdivision and so it requires two meetings.

Okay. Um who moves this preliminary subdivision? Jenny moves. Going to have a second. Andy seconds. Okay. Anything to discuss on this? Let's take a closer look at the whereas any questions or changes being nodding hands. Okay, let's do a roll call vote on preliminary subdivision approval. Andy, yes. Annie, yes. Max, yes. Elizabeth, yes. Peggy,

yes. I am also a yes. Um, okay. So, Phoebe, that's all the business we have for you tonight. I think we'll see you in December for the final. Sounds good. Thank you so much, everyone, and uh, have a lovely holiday this week. You, too. Thank you. Thank you.

Okay, our next project up is The Citizen at 602 West Buffalo Street. Tonight we're going to be having a public hearing and discussing the amended negative declaration

in the virtual room. Okay. Julia and Todd, can you hear me? I can hear you. Yep, there you are. Hi. Hi. Can Can you hear me well? Oh, yes. Okay, I think I'm good. Are we expecting Bear as well? Okay. Yes. Is he in the waiting room? I'll keep an eye out for So, while we're waiting for him, um, we could have the amended neg discussion. Do we want to do that after hearing? Maybe we wait. I was trying to get through a few things, but let's wait until we hear the presentation. Um, we could do the public hearing.

I'm not sure. I'm going to see. Well, he should be joining. I apologize. Um, that's okay. We'll give him a minute.

He Yeah, he he's joining now. I guess he was just too quick. It's because we're way out of schedule here. Is he showing on on the um waiting room? No, not yet. Apologize. I'm not sure what's happening. I apologize. I'm going to try to to give him a call. I'm sorry.

It's okay. Julia, do you have happen to have Eric because we could switch the order and do the breeze first and circle back. Um um yes. Well, is is Eric by any chance in the waiting room? I I can check with him if he's ready there. If he's not in the waiting room, I can call him now. Um Okay, we have Bear. Oh, great. Okay, thank you. Might want to give Eric a heads up. for running ahead of schedule though. Yes, we'll do. Thank you for that.

One second. I apologize for running a touch late.

No, no, we are early for once. So, no worries. Okay, just need to open up the file and we'll be all set to go. All righty. I think I'm all set. Let me go ahead and uh share my screen. All right. So, last time we had talked about um wanting to do a more in-depth uh conversation about the project as a whole and then we also had a few outstanding items from the last meeting that require just a little bit more uh conversation. So, our goal is to try to go through all of those this evening. I'm going to jump ahead to the planting plan and kind of go through the site elements from there. So, looking at the front corner of the property along North Meadow and West Buffalo, we do have um planting or we have a small section of plantings along the front of the retail section along with one new tree. The other existing trees are intended to remain along with the ballards along the front of the street. There is a couple of plants that are tucked right in underneath the u uh drive here. To take a step back a little bit, what we have is right here on the corner of uh the two streets is a mix between the retail or commercial space. It could be a business um and also the residential portion. Um this has been limited in square footage and area as much as

possible to try to help mitigate uh the uh mitigate higher needs of flood proofing um on the ground level. We have underbuilding parking along the back and then back here we do have a secondary emergency stair along with an elevated electrical room to make sure all utilities are elevated from a floodproofing purpose. Um the rectangles that you're seeing going along the bottom of the uh parking here, that's an underground system. Um, and so that's taking all the rain water from the roof and it's slowly going to uh put that into the storm water system. But it if there's a high volume, this will hold it momentarily and slowly uh uh put it back into the system so that the the um storm water system doesn't get overwhelmed. There is also along the back uh a little seated air a seating area um with some like chest tables and such for residents to be able to have a little outdoor space on site. Going to here's the other overall site plan. Additionally, there is a PA section along the back of the building. Again, this section is only meant for emergency vehicle access only. um as there is an easement agreement with TC action right next door and this was to try to satisfy the New York State uh uh aerial firetruck apparatus code. The way the code reads is that you need to have access on one entire face of the building. Um, and which we do have that access along here, but it is a pretty short face of the building. And ETHA has uh has traditionally interpreted as if you can provide the longest face, that is what's preferred and um um desired. And so to try to help make up for that, that's why there's the additional access in the back to allow the fire department to be able to gain access towards the

roof on both ends. Um, in terms of other site elements, there is the area back here. We are working on trying to get some fencing included in here for the uh or sorry uh this area right here um for the parking uh for the bike storage area underneath. There is fencing that runs along the perimeter of the building. There's going to be a little bit of new fencing added along the front here. And keep in mind again, there's those two plants that are about four to five foot tall when they get fully matured right in this area. We do have an existing fence of the neighbors running along here. Then the project will be adding in new fencing along here all the way back and wrapping around. TC Action does have a wood fence that runs along their property all the way down and across here. And so we will have some additional fencing here and here to try to close off this section just for emergency access only. Um as this is a pretty narrow area between the buildings and we want to try to keep that void of foot traffic as much as possible. Um, one other element to really note on in terms of the site plan, and this was something that was uh discussed at length when we uh originally got the approval a couple years back was that opening up this corner was a desirable element for people to be able to walk, cut the corner, and also have like a little uh rest bit here. Um, have a covered area and have some seating that might be associated with the uh retail or business portion of the building. Moving along, let's go to the building elevations. So for context, we'll start with the uh isometric view. This is an infill project and as it is an infill project,

that kind of drives the shape of the building and does limit how much you're able to do in terms of the floor plan on the interior. So again, we have south uh Buffalo or sorry Buffalo Street and also Meadow Street fronting these two corners of the building. And then it's going to step back in behind the buildings of TC action and also it steps along the property lines on the uh west western face as well. We do have solar sunscreens that are going around the predominant faces of the building to help try to uh create some visual interest and also effectively try to solar shade on the sides that are going to get the most the most interaction. So we see that on the east side, the south side and when we get to the other face, you'll see it along the west side as well. along the back of the building where it's tucked in between. We don't have the uh solar shades there because they won't be effective in terms of what they're attempting to do. In terms of visuals um and context, this building we did have to raise because of the flood plane. And as a part of that, we raised it about 4 foot to be able to uh uh raise everything out for the flood purposes, but that was going to trigger a zoning variance if we kept the same number of stories. So to be able to ensure that we were still uh compliant with the ordinances, we had removed the top story. So this went from a five-story building down to a fourstory building, which ultimately made the building shorter than it previously was. So while we do have two residential um buildings along Buffalo Street currently, uh I believe one of this one next to it is not currently occupied. I need to confirm that. I know it wasn't that was the case during the previous mission, but we need to confirm again. Um, and then sorry and then along Meadow Street, this portion of the facade right here will be visible at the street front

and then the building steps back behind the TC action buildings here and here. In terms of materials, we're using masonry on the ground floor because it's both durable from a flood proofing standpoint and it's also very resilient material in an urban environment. So, this will be a split face CMU that is going to be of a cray color. Um, not your standard like concrete gray, but a touch darker verging on that charcoal. And then the materials up above is going to be an assortment of um fiber cement siding. And of course again we have these vertical solar shades that will be of a perforated metal and will be uh either powder coated or paint epoxy painted green. Um in terms of we'll go around all all the elevations real quick. Um so on the back side of the building again we have the solar shades going up and along to create some visual interest along there. You can see the raised portion for the emergency egress on the secondary stair and as well as the electrical room back there. Um and then you get some shorter facads um along the back portion there as a building snakes through the lot for the um accessibility concern that was raised during the last meeting. The first place to really start to understand how the decision was made in terms of where we placed the access and trying to limit the distances and uh give the best flexibility and the best uh equitability as we could is to understand the layout of the upper floors. As this building is uh infilt parcel, we want to try to uh provide as much exterior facade to the dwelling units as much as possible. So given the shape of the building on this

front portion, it made the most sense to centralize this vertical circulation as much as we possibly can as opposed to pushing it further inbound which would have taken up a valuable dwelling unit space. But again, we also have to keep in mind that there is a parking um element that's under the building. So it can't go too much further south either because then it starts impacting that. So to try to address that, this is where the elevator and stair had landed based off of our elevation needs. And currently what we have for let's discuss retail first and then we'll get into the residential. With the retail portion, you can dry flood proof, which means that you're allowing it to be below the required flood elevation, but you have to make sure it's like a bathtub. No water can infiltrate. You have to have protective measures to be able to achieve that. One of those requirements is you do have to have one means of egress that does elevate up out of the or goes to the elevated height to be able to get out. So you can't have all of your means of egress tucked down. So previously the space was split into two different retail sections. And if we did that we would have to provide two elevated means of egress because each space would be independent. as a part of that that was going to chew up a lot of uh lot of square footage to be able to achieve that. So what ended up happening was we combined the spaces together and we have the stair in here going to the front festial out. This is only meant for emergency purposes. The intent is for that these two doors along Meadow Street would be the primary entrances and exits for this space. Again, this would only be serving as emergency exit only. The stair along the front was something that well, the entry point here was a

remnant of the previous design. And as we elevated, we saw an opportunity to be able to provide the landing and the stairs right here. But given the location of where the stairs and elevators were, it became a concern of how much ramping was going to be required to elevate four feet for someone to be able to navigate around the building and get to the elevator as necessary. As we approach this, we were looking at the fact of most of the tenants are probably going to be parking in underneath the building and we have our accessible parking here and here. And then we also have access to Buffalo Street over here. So placing this lower lobby with a elevator that has a front and back door that allows them to be able to get up through the building provides the quickest and the easiest means of access up. It is important to note that like most tradition or most um mixeduse buildings the ground floor tends to be commercial and the upper floors tend to be residential and an elevator becomes a necessity to be able to access those upper floors regardless of the flood plane or not. So, as a part of that, while we do have the elevator, we wanted to make sure that we were able to get access to this raised portion here and up through the building. So, this creates a nice uh progression for tenants to be able to come in, enter the elevator, and if they want to leave the first floor, they can just continue straight on through to the first floor. Or if they go up to the upper floors, they're able to continue right out into the building to wherever their unit is located. Additionally, um, looking at the access, we can see here going from the parking, we're approximately 72 feet. Going from the sidewalk to the elevator, we're about 62 ft. When we started exploring other options such as a ramp in the front of the building, we're a we're able to tuck a ramp in, but it does extend beyond the footprint of the building. And there's going to be a

portion here that want to be covered. and you're looking at 128 feet to be able to get from Meadow Street all the way in through the building to the elevator. While here we're still able to maintain that 62 ft and then 72 ft. So, while this is possible and could work, it is a much longer prog uh path to be able to enter the building and does require someone being able to wheel up a ramp as opposed to utilizing the elevator right at grade. looking at other opportunities. And some of this will recognize that we looked at this early on and we're kind of showing this kind of how we came to this decision a little bit because there was some challenges when we were looking at trying to move the entry here to make this work a little bit better. So in this instance, we're looking at trying to move the entry closer to the street. And if we were to try to achieve that and add a ramp, it works nicely from the parking lot. We're able to get about 150 ft straight up to this entry, come on in and into the elevator, but it would require a set of stairs on the other side, which then is pushing someone to have to navigate along the driveway, which isn't a safe condition, and there wasn't enough space to be able to push the elevator and stair further up into the building. Again, remember that condition on the second floor. And so if we flip the situation, same kind of same kind of approach. We have the parking over here. Someone would have to navigate along the driveway to be able to get to the public right away then to be able to go up the ramp. So at this situation, you're looking at the longest path to get into the building. So that is why we ultimately landed on this this approach here where the building access is left at grade and would require to be wet floodproof to be able to bring people in, get them to the elevator and

then go up. And then just as a a quick uh catch up with some of the other items we talked about, we did update the rendering because previously there was concern about the height of the windows along the front here. We had forgotten to uh include uh the plantings along here which would shorten the amount of seating a little bit and gives a little bit more variety along there. And also there was a comment about the blank wall space that was over here. And what we suggest doing is bringing the window sills down to be uniform with the other window sills along the facade and either have a spandre pla uh panel or clear glass. Um that's undetermined at this point because there is office space in behind. So some privacy will probably be desired at that height. And of course we are we are keeping the uh mural that was previously in the um prior approval. I think that covers everything I had on my list. Julia, is there anything I'm missing that we would like to cover?

No, I think you covered um the the notes that I had for now. Okay,

great. Thank you very much, Bear. That was a very thorough uh recap, I think. I appreciate that. Um, I think before we go around for board member comments, I'd like to do the public hearing in case we hear anything from from the public. Um, anybody in the audience? Well, first, sorry. Could I have a motion to open public hearing? Jenny moves. Um, seconds. All in favor of opening public hearing. The public hearing is now open. Um, anyone in the public wishing to speak? Seeing none, Sam, anyone in line? Nobody. Okay. Can I have a motion to close public hearing? Um, Elizabeth moves. Jenny seconds. All in favor of closing public hearing. Public hearing is now closed. Um, okay. Now, let's go around. I'm gonna let you off the hook as number one this time. Jenny, can I start with you, please?

Sure. Um, thanks so much, Bear, for that thoughtful presentation. Um, you know, I'm admittedly still a little bit uncomfortable with the accessibility component. I I understand sort of the different pieces that you laid out and how you landed here. Um, you know, I'm wondering if you guys would be able to reach out to Flick, the Fingerlakes Independent Center. And and I don't know, I just would really like some outside perspective on on what this looks like in practice for folks who really do need that, especially and I'm curious, is this projectunded funded by ESHI um like you know, New York State supportive housing funding? Um, I'd have to double check. We are We have submitted for HCR funding. Excuse me. We've submitted for HCR funding um through the 9% application and there is I think 18 units that have been identified for supportive housing needs.

Okay. Because I mean I just think particularly you're you're you're building a building that is for individuals that may have accessibility challenges. And so I think it just really means that it's important to get the accessibility right and that may be what you guys have laid out. Um I I don't yet feel comfortable or you know confident that that is what you've laid out. I really think sort of just relying on elevator only access for a building especially an elevator access that has public access from the outside in can lead to other challenges. Um, you know, I can appreciate that you can get in the elevator and go right up to your floor, but I also think that if it is opening up to what is like a publicly available area that you then you open yourself up to having more issues and challenges with the space in that elevator and what that looks like for residents. Um, and I think having an elevator that is like a little bit more internal to the building can be safer, more secure, and um, provide a better experience for people who are living there. Um, so I I you know I I I don't know. I'm still feeling a little bit stuck on this. I think it would be great if we could, you know, ask some experts to kind of take a look and see if they feel like given the population that you're trying to serve with this building, if those individuals really would feel like that's an acceptable way to kind of come in and out of the space. Um, that was one. Um, I really liked the um the drainage elements that you talked about. I thought those seems like you've got some really interesting sustainability components of this building. Um, and then the other thing is is parking. I mean, I think if you look at all of our design guidelines pretty clearly, we ask for screened parking. Um, and so I think just putting up a fence isn't really necessarily tasteful screening. This is like a huge intersection downtown that is like very well trafficked and very visible as you

come into and exit Ithaca. Um, and so I think creative stream screening for parking um, in this particular space is really important. All right, that was a a mouthful. So I will pass to Max. Thank you, Bear. Thanks, Jenny. Max,

thanks. Thanks, Bear. Thanks for that uh, broad overview was really good. Um, I want to continue along the lines that Jenny is talking and talk about the west side of the building or the back side that we're talking that seems to be the kind of the big issue. I'm I'm um I appreciated the options that you laid out in terms of accessibility and you know I'm feel more comfortable about the option A and I kind of see that but I I have some other uh questions about that side of the building that come to my mind if if that were to be the option. Um, and they have, you know, the basically as you were talking I was thinking we we're calling it the back side of the building, but to the residents it's almost kind of the front side built, right? Because it's the main point of entrance and so forth. And so one of the things uh that I'm interested in um exploring is kind of the uh attractiveness o of that entra entrance uh the functionality of it. And then maybe the biggest uh issue for me right now in my mind or biggest question is the safety uh in that space back there. Uh to me this seems like it could be a dark dank parking area in the back that would be really creepy to enter the building. And um I wonder, you know, if we could talk about that a little bit and maybe uh address uh that uh issue uh of um primarily safety, but also attractiveness and making it really a building that people want to come to and that they feel like it's really welcoming to to them. Um, when we talk about the accessibility there, I'm wondering about uh the corners uh and the the uh entryway there um and you know whether there'd be a hiding space for someone uh how visible it would be to uh to the street. Uh, in this case,

you know, even though we want a screen parking normally, I'm I'm more concerned about visibility in this area because I I mean, if I was living there, I would want to be have people walking by and seeing it and, you know, it is a a urban busy urban space down there and I wouldn't want uh spaces that were dark and kind of hidden um there. So I think that's uh kind of roughly uh frames what I want to talk about with you and hear more about. Um, I had one other thing that came to my mind um that when I was thinking about this and that's uh how busy Buffalo Street is and then how people swing around from Meadow Street onto Buffalo Street and they're often speeding around that corner and it started to make me think a little bit about the igress from that parking area and uh I would be interested to know a little bit about the visibility issues especially for people that are exiting from in there and you know the extent to which that is is safe right for uh people both people that are exiting there and then also people driving by on the street maybe driving too fast.

Yeah. So yeah um so I I think that's enough um I'll I'll pass on. Those are things are on my mind. Great. Thank you Max Elizabeth.

Thanks Max and Jenny. Those are really good um uh observations. Thank you, Bear, for your eloquent description of all the studies that you did. Um so I have the same um the same concerns about safety and security in the back of the parking area. Um lighting, I know it all has to be dark sky compliant, but it should be well lit. And um I don't know that we got too much into that. Um, I think that option one is probably the best option, but Jenny's correct. We should have some experts look at it. Um, that is essentially the front entrance for residents. Um, I wanted you to clarify what the functions of those spaces on that um back part of the building are. Um, is it just for residents and is the public just the atrade area that's white and not um hatched out?

That is correct. The hatched portion is the raised portion of the building. Um and that is for residents only with the exception of this vestibule which we would have to be thoughtful with our um uh door hardware security to make sure that someone can't come up through through this vestibule and enter this door right here. So that back vestibial to the elevator that's all secure and only accessible to residents and staff. Correct. Right. Yep. Correct. Yeah.

Um good. That's that's good to know. Um the one question that no one's really talked about yet is are the sun shades functional? Did you do a sun study? Cuz I didn't think that there was enough shading on the west side and um so I wanted to hear more about that. Um I don't know if you want to address that now or just at the end when uh

and I think Peggy is going to want to know about the pedestrian experience. I'm also um so I won't touch on that but I was worried about pedestrians crossing the area where the parking lot um exit into the street etc. Thank you. Thank you Elizabeth Peggy.

All right. Yes, I am interested in the pedestrian experience. Um, could you could you bring up the the plan for the the the end the the the parking plan again? Yeah. So, this is a one this is a two-way entry exit. So, cars will be waiting to get out and coming in over the sidewalk. This is an extremely narrow sidewalk here. Um,

correct. This this was the layout that we did during the previous approval that was um approved by the DOT. And so essentially people as they're coming westward on Buffalo Street, they would be able to enter the parking lot only from that direction and then they would have to exit going westward as well. um entering from the left is something that um while the curb cuts are shown there uh it's not I think we have to have some signage that was indicating that that's not allowed. Um yep right here no left turns here and then there is a little island here in the middle to help try to break the two different lanes to be able to give a little safe safety buffer as people are crossing.

It's a very it's very tricky. It's a very busy space. The on a Friday night in the summer, this is somebody trying to get in or out of here will be they'll just be sitting on the sidewalk for 20 minutes until someone lets them out. That's an exaggeration, but so that's something I'm concerned about. Um I'm concerned about the security. um the kind of I understand what's going on, why you have to have why you've chosen to put the entrance in the back, but it feels extremely um devalued. This is going to be affordable housing now. Are we hiding? It feels like you're hiding the people. The entry is in the back. It's underneath this um enclosure somehow. and it just feels very um it doesn't feel like an entrance or it's not legible to anyone coming to visit. That's that's a concern that I have. It also feels like it won't be very safe. Um this is a high foot traffic area. It's a lot going on across the street at the the gas station. A lot going on in this neighborhood. I lived in this neighborhood for a very long time. I know it very well. Um I don't know. This is this is my first meeting so I'm kind of speaking a lot and I apologize but um another question I have is could you talk to talk about the the stairway the stairway on Buffalo Street? Is this where where I apologize but where does this go?

Yep. And so this uh stairway leads up into the uh that shared vestibule that's predominantly meant for the residents um but also serves as the means of egress from the retail space. So we can see that here. So um that previous view was looking um this way. And so we're coming up the stairs into the vestibule and then into the building which immediately you have your leasing office, your conference room and then access to the stairs. elevator is tucked right in behind and this is emergency egress for retail.

Yes, emer emergency only. Uh the intent is that even in an emergency situation, these doors would be the primary doors that would be being used right at grade. Uh they can serve as the emergency exits, but because of the flood plane issue, um there is a specific requirement that you have to have one emergency exit that is elevated. And so to be able to achieve that in the most efficient way, we're doubling and using this vestibial for that purpose. And this would be like an alarm crash bar kind of situation. Exactly.

That feels also does not feel very safe for the residents. Um that's so those those are kind of those are the things I'm thinking about with this layout. And um and I know that this is a very difficult lot and um you've answered a lot of requests by pulling pulling the facade back from the street and giving this this corner back to pedestrians and I appreciate that a lot. Um I don't know. I think I'm going to leave it at that. But that's I I I'd like to to see maybe something is there. So, there's another I I do have another question. There's there's a way for emergency vehicles to enter on Meadow. Is that right? There's going to be another curb cut on Meadow.

Uh yes. So, pull up that plan again. Uh so, this portion right here is technically TC Actions uh parking lot. And so we have an easement agreement with them to extend access through for emergency vehicles. I see. Okay. I don't have another question. I just wanted to see it again. Thank I'm just thinking about it. Thank you. Mhm.

Thank you, Peggy. Um questions that I have for you. Um when you talk about the 18 units of supportive housing, does that mean there will be support staff in house? I think that would be really important to understand. I think on behalf of the city, I I'm feeling burned by the, you know, the vino project over the convention center and how that sort of deteriorated over time with a lack of um supportive staff on site. And so I would love to hear what the strategy is for this support of these 18 units and how you can avoid a situation like that here. Um, I also noticed, um, thanks to Lisa, your in your elevations of Buffalo Street, how close the house is to your building. So, I wondered if you could talk to us a little bit about that. Give us a number. How are you meeting the code there? Um, and you said you would circle back next time with whether that's an empty house or not, but I'm not sure that it matters because it is a it is a house that someone will occupy at some point. So, just to hear your strategy on how your building is sensitive to that. And then I just want to drive home I feel the same way about this devalued sort of um secondary entrance. And I think it was a great idea that you proposed, Jenny, um to reaching out to the FLIC to just get um somebody that's not us, somebody that's not from your team to sort of weigh in on what their thoughts are um on your proposed accessible solutions. If it is what you're proposing, if that's where everybody lands, I will second that. It's got to be the most well-lit, the most beautiful, and the safest um so that it feels equitable. Um, okay. So, any other Andy? Oh my gosh. Thank you, Nikki. Please give us your thoughts.

Okay. Yes. Thank you. Um, well, I I think a lot of, um, what I want to talk about, um, my fellow board members have already shared, but just to, you know, take it a little bit further, you know, from the urban design standpoint, I think the two issues are the safety of the garage and the experience of the garage. And to me, that really should be an enclosed garage screen somehow. Um, you know, some control at the entry and exit as well, so that people can't come in to this garage unless they're residents. Um, because I do think in this part of town, um, it it looks like a sort of a sheltered place, a place that, you know, you could just sort of hang out and I think that would be a mistake. Um, the other urban design issue that I'm seeing is the the sidewalk experience beyond your property line. The existing trees along Meadow Street now are in these oversized tree boxes which, you know, create the opportunity for more landscape. There's a mix of concrete and PA. And I'm not seeing really any design um, in your presentation that that really addresses that. I just see sort of three trees. But I think that would be a great opportunity to design that um sidewalk beyond your property, including the ballards. If the ballards are there for safety, then I think here's an opportunity to make them part of the design. You know, they shouldn't just be those yellow painted existing ballards. You know, they could be light fixtures. They could be something really that adds um something special to that corner. Um and then my other comment as everyone else has talked about is really the equity of the of the um accessibility. If if bear could you go to the plan that

has the ramp coming from the corner. Um the I I have just a general No, not that one. The um maybe it's the last scheme has Yeah, this one. I have a problem with, you know, the front, you know, access to this building being a stair. Um, because it's not just people in wheelchairs, it's people over a certain age. Um, I think you have to think about moveins. I think you have to think about equipment and furniture delivery. You know, having this big stair as the front door to me seems wrong. And I'm wondering is there the opportunity of of drywaterproofing a portion of this lobby so that you could actually come in um actually even grab that ramp. I think the ramp should be inside the building not outside. So expand the building to incorporate those columns on the west side. come into a space that's at grade that's dry waterproofed and then have access to your ramp, access to the stair within the building. Um, again, I just think, you know, I know there's these huge challenges and I think you did a great job on the State Street project figuring it out, but here I don't think this is the way we want to address buildings in our flood plane is you need a stair because again, it's it's beyond, you know, people that um are in wheelchairs. It's again, it's people of a certain age and just sort of the function of the building. Um, I do I really appreciate the work, you know, you put into the plan. I see why the elevator is in that location. It totally makes sense. Your units, you're maximizing, you know, windows for all of the units. Um, I still think there could be some more verticality to the facade. I think it is so horizontal and it's so

high up on these columns that I think, you know, something more could break through that very linear expression. And I I agree with um Elizabeth that, you know, the these the green elements really aren't, you know, making an impact on your sun shading. I mean, if if if you really are wanting to do that on the south side, they would probably be horizontal, not vertical. So, maybe some more thought into that. But, you know, I absolutely applaud the team for developing this this site. Um it's really going to be great when it's developed. So those are my comments.

Thank you. I apologize for skipping you too. Um okay. So I think that was a great discussion. Um we've taken more time but I think it was really worthwhile um to hear the thorough presentation and then also everybody's feedback on it. Um I would like to address the idea of amending the NEG deck. Um and so we can we're going to talk about it today and if we decide to do it it would happen next month. Um, but from what I understand, we would open the seeker. Um, sort of go through any of the areas that are impacted in the new design. Um, keep what was written before, strike it out as a record, and then add new language to capture any changes that have been made. Um and so areas we would look at, we can look at all the areas, but specifically um the project description, the impact on land, the flooding is a huge one. Um aesthetic impact and also transportation. Did I get them all? Transportation, bike, and pedestrian.

Yes. And and to be clear, I would be doing we would be doing this for you and bringing that amended negoti. These are the areas that Nikki brainstormed are the most visibly changed. So tonight we should just talk about you know is it do we want to amend the seeker um or not? What are the implications of that for this project but also future projects that might come to us and have a similar change in project would we open the seeker and is this sort of a precedent? So

and I will say if I can amended Nagduck does give you a record that's the biggest thing like this is what's changed this is what's on record of you know 500 to 100 year and etc and we would do it concurrently with um the project team's answers to questions today sort of add it as an additional item next month so I'm just curious to everybody's thoughts on whether this is wise or not wise or what do you think Max can you just explain to me what The options are I mean one is to do this amended one and the other option is what just to leave the already approved negative. Got it.

And you say in the approval resolution that the previous neg negative declaration, you know, is sufficient for the new project, but it doesn't capture any of the change. That's very helpful. Thanks. I mean, can I just jump in, please? Yeah. I I think we should do an amended one. I I I think um some of the stuff that's come up today, especially with respect to the uh uh the transportation aspect I think is at least on my mind uh I it deserves a little bit more of a a look and so forth and I think it would be good and I don't think it would hold things up too long for us to to do this.

Okay. Anybody else? I if if I may, I would like to add that we have not changed anything in regards to the sidewalks and the parking from the previous approval. Okay, that's great. Um I think that'll make it easier and shorter. Um I think we really want to look at impacts of of the flood primarily um and the change in in use with well I guess it's not use but it's reducing that story in relation to the flood. Yeah, Elizabeth,

I was going to agree with you that there's probably a change in number of units and um the flood plane issue. You need to document that there's a difference. Um and whatever other changes might be, this is a new board. We're going to redo the site plan approval and so whatever other changes that we do should be correctly described in the seeker. Um we're not saying that it'll become a pause pac or anything like that. It's just to correct the record so that we have um you know a defensible document um for this project and um yeah so I like I said I be in support of that. I think it's good practice for us to go back and correct the record.

Okay. Anyone else? Sure. Andy agree with what Elizabeth just said. Okay. Um, so I'm I have three positive yeses and some shaking heads. So I think it makes I agree. I think it's just good to have a clear record and if we go back to look at this project, it's spelled out very clearly. Um, and I can see this happening in the future. So we should create um a good precedent for that. Um, so I'm not sure if that happens in December or um or January. You think it we would start to look at it? Yes, we could definitely bring it to P to sorry, there will be no PRC in December. We'll make sure everyone knows that too because it's just too truncated.

Um materials would have to be due for planning board before PRC, but um yes, we can have the amended egg deck as far as we've taken it, you know, exiting with all the materials and then you guys could look at it and either vote on it or give it another another month. Um and it's interesting when you do read it, the board because I know it's you know lot there's a lot of new members. Same some same similar issues and then you can see how it was answered like for example that um entrance the the ingress egress and accessibility of the um parking garage um was asked and then answered by NY city engineering. So yeah, it's yeah it's great to see that you guys have similar questions too.

Thanks. Um I think that does it for tonight. Um thank you to the team. Thank you, Bear, for walking us through all that. Um, I think there's a lot to to consider and hopefully bring back to us and we will see you in December. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Um, so I think Yeah, we'll keep Julia and Todd, right? Okay. Yes, thank you. And I know Eric is already there. We ended up fairly on time uh as projected. So, the next project will be Breeze Apartments at 121 to 125 Lake Street and we are looking at potential site plan changes approval tonight.

Thank you. Thank you, Emily. Um, we should have Michael as well for Abella. Is he on? Yes, I see him there. So, thank you everyone for having us tonight here with uh the 121125 league street project. We're here to review our recent modification requests. uh aside from myself um just for um Peggy, nice to meet you. Um for uh your your knowledge on I'm Visim senior development manager. Um and together with me I have Todd Fox. He's Visim CEO and we also have Eric Reynolds. He's an architect with SWVR who will be making the presentation. And we have lastly Michael but not at least uh Michael Farbella uh with DGA Builders who's going to be adding to one of our requests. So I'll pass it on to Eric so he can make the presentation now.

Thank you Julia. Uh good evening. So to take things back a little bit, we are here tonight seeking some updates to a previously approved site plan. The Breeze Apartments was approved initially a number of years ago. Uh at that time along the eastern portion of the project was a steep bank. We were planning at that time to expose a section of bedrock um which has become a wall which is the first thing we'll talk about tonight and what was largely discussed at the last planning board meeting in um October. And there's a couple of other ancillary pieces. So, we'll go over those three things tonight. Um, a change in updates to the retaining wall as well as some dominoes that fell related to transformer location, landscaping, and the dumpster enclosure and landscaping. So, the initially approved project, as I mentioned, was uh originally an exposed section of vertical bedrock. After the brownfield cleanup program was completed, there were sections at the far north and far south end which were more soil than bedrock. So, we came in March of this year seeking an initial approval to the site plan to change out the original proposed design from that exposed bedrock face to small sections of well, small relative perhaps being the term there, but two sections of concrete retaining wall. And at that time, admittedly, sort of we came to the the plane board, we were in the middle of construction. We were very much in a problem solving mode at that point. and we were perhaps not doing as much due diligence as we would have had we been in a normal design process in a normal um entitlement process. So in our last planning board meeting we proposed um the design that we were looking at the alternative design and um these slides should look familiar because the presentation is largely the same. Um so we had proposed um some updates and we

had referenced that the the the large change that we discussed was that in place of a concrete retaining wall we were looking at a segmented block retaining wall. Um the board took some exception to that initially. There was some questions about why we needed to change from concrete to segmented block and um at that time we had listed construction intensity in the meeting and we had I think maybe put that in a letter and we had not really given a lot of background in the previous planning board meeting in October to you know what that really meant. So, in the PRC recently with a with a few of the planning boards, you really went into a little bit more detail, and that's kind of what we'll outline today for the most part and certainly look at some of the other pieces, but that's kind of the the meat of what we'll discuss today. So, a concrete retaining wall requires um folks to get on both sides. Formwork's required. Generally, what the domino is, additional excavation is required. So, with a concrete retaining wall, your normal excavation limit is X. Um, with other types of retaining walls, you only need to get to one side. Therefore, your excavation limit is a little bit less. That would not be an issue perhaps on some sites. On our site here, because we are um up against some property lines, um the limit of excavation required for a concrete wall just expands further and closer into the neighbor's property. Again, on some projects that might not be necessarily the end of the world, but what we're dealing with here is um potentially soil issues on the neighbor's property as well as just a neighbor who is going through some things is not keen on us um doing additional excavation. So, the cast inplace concrete retain wall requires more excavation. We are kind of at the limits of our excavation for two reasons. One just being up against the neighbor's property. The second being that the soil on the neighbor's property was not cleaned to the EC standards

during our project and so therefore it would open up sort of DEC review and environmental protection agency review. So some other things that we certainly don't want to get into. So our updated proposal is a segmented block retaining wall. Reason being construction intensity and hopefully that gives you a little bit of a background of what the construction intensity is. It's just a segmented block retaining wall can allow for um workers to only have to be on one side and therefore less excavation. We did do um some additional due diligence and we did talk with Mike Farabella and if there was any and his subcontractors to see if there was any way that we could still use a cast inplace concrete retaining wall. Um physically there perhaps is room, but there's a real safety issue with doing that. Um I know that we had offered to give folks the ability to go to the site and kind of see the conditions that were there. We've really performed the excavation um to the limit that we can at this point um from a safety perspective. Um Mike, I know you had pro provided some additional information before just in the interest to keep rolling here. Um we can circle back and you can provide any more feedback, but there really is sort of OSHA issues without doing any more additional excavation. We cannot really put employees between I'm sorry, we cannot put workers between the vertical rock face and the back side of the wall as it stands and we really cannot perform any additional excavation because of the neighboring property in DEEC and the issues with the soil over there. So we talked about that in PRC and I think generally that um gave a better picture of what was going on to the members who were there. Like I said the rest of this presentation is pretty similar. Um we did get some additional aesthetic options for the retaining wall and did look at some other photos. So um on the left here is the cast in place formwork you know you know um workers on

both sides construction of the originally approved retaining wall and then on the right is more like what we are proposing. So this is actually a pretty similar condition to where we have a retaining wall sort of butdding up against existing bedrock cut. So this is very similar to the condition that we would have. Um and then we do have some alternative blocks. These are very large. Unfortunately, we can't bring them. They are available on site for anyone to go take a look at. Um but we do have some other alternatives from an aesthetic perspective. But our position really is that from a construction and logistics standpoint, um being able to set these from one side up against the vertical bedrock cut is the only safe way that we can achieve this. Um so we're hopeful that with going through some of these options, the board can take a look and sort of understand the position that we're in. And that was the main crux of uh I think what we landed on last meeting. Just to like quickly recap, the other two things that we are seeking uh changes on are the location of the dumpster. So this upper plan here shows there's a dumpster enclosure here. Um for the same reasons of additional excavation and wall height and construction intensity, we are um proposing to move this to the end. All of the uh previous requirements from a loading on the zoning side as well as emergency vehicle turnaround are preserved. This is um a cedar dumpster enclosure with plantings around it. And then the other piece is a relocation of the transformer in our coordination with NYSAG and the city of Ithaca and what is um allowed to come off of the right ofway. Uh we have relocated the transformer and associated plantings um down into this corner previously located up in this corner. Just to round things out, this is the plantings. This is the construction of the dumpster enclosure. So, it's a cedar

enclosure. Arbor vites um around that as well as the um tall grasses and arborites around the transformer. And then these last two attachments are just the formal drawings documenting everything that I just discussed. So, with that, I will turn it over to the board. If there's any questions, we're happy to answer and talk through. Great. Thank you, Eric. I'm going to start with you, Andy, so I don't miss you again, please.

Thank you, and thanks, Eric, for the presentation. And I did uh go to the site and looked at um the options for for the blocks um to build the wall. But then when we we received our board packet um there was a a comment from the city um related to the width of the street and the new sidewalk that you're doing on the east side. Um basically you're proposing, if I understand the comment right, to reduce the width of the road three feet to accommodate that sidewalk and the city is concerned with that from a from a safety standpoint. Um, so the the question that I had looking on site was, you know, how does if you if you pull up the elevation of the wall, how does the that new wall as it tapers down interact with the existing wall? And I think what the city was proposing was potentially moving or rebuilding that wall. It's really it's kind of really shape. Yeah.

Yep.

The wall that is related to what you're talking about is a little bit further to the south, which is up here, I believe. My understanding in the conversations with what's going on with city engineering right now. We we then and just to to provide a little bit more feedback, we are in the process of pulling the building permit for this work and the city had some questions. Um we had when we came in 2022 to seek the initial approval for this project, the plane board asked would it be possible to extend the sidewalk and connect it all the way around. Um at that point we had reached out to engineering and they we have some correspondence with Tim Lo that this approach is approved and um that was part of our initial site plan approval. We are now just getting some questions asked through them now that we are pulling the permit to actually perform the work. So that's the background for that. We're not really here to talk about that tonight. Of course, I'm more than happy to talk through it. Andy, the the retaining wall that is related to the sidewalk extension is an existing one off property right in here. That one is in rough shape. Um, our retaining wall is on our site further back. So, I think the existence of this new retaining wall tapering down should not really impact what does or does not happen with the sidewalk in the rightway. It should be far enough away from what we're um from, you know, those two things should be far enough apart. The the retaining walls that are in question as part of the rightway sidewalk work, my understanding is this one here, which is

well, but the one just to the right of your new one, it looks like it's coming into the area that would be impacted. This this section here? Yeah, the end of it. I mean, wouldn't you have to you would have to do something there if you weren't able to to widen the street? Uh, I think the I don't think we would if we don't widen the street, I don't think this would have any domino. So, like we're not messing with the grading or anything in this area. We're just paving the sidewalk at grade. So this wall right now comes down to wherever it does and we would pour sidewalk up against it in whatever manner the city engineering standards would be for something like that.

Yeah, it it would have been helpful I think to provide a more illustrative um you know exhibit to show what this retaining wall is really going to look like because again I'm not understanding how it's tapering down at the end and how the existing wall comes in sort of behind it. Um, so I I feel like there's some information missing. I had also asked to, you know, update the elevation to show the capstones. I mean, I can comment on the, you know, which block I like better, but to me, I still feel like there's a little information missing. Um, in terms of the the landscape at the transformer, thank you for that. I I think that that's really clear how you're going to be screening the transformer and um the the screening at the arborvite at the the trash enclosure. Makes sense. So I I I guess I still have questions about the wall.

Thank you, Andy. Uh Jenny, um yeah, thanks for the additional screener around the dumpster. I think that looks really nice. Um you know, I'm I'm okay with the brick. I understand the predicament that you're in and your inability to do the poured concrete. Um, and I if there's other folks who are also interested in sort of more more detail on sort of how those pieces come together. I don't know if there's more materiality choices to help you know mitigate whatever this that juncture is that will be funky, but um I I agree we can move away from the poured concrete I think. Thank you, Max.

Yeah, thanks very much. Um, I uh Eric, I think that um yeah, what Jenny just said about moving away from the poured concrete is is not a problem. I think the uh those blocks that you want to put in there uh make a lot of sense given the circumstances. Like Andy, I went up and looked at those and like Andy, I came away with the same question about that existing concrete wall and kind of how that all fit together there. So, I do I I kind of agree. I'd like to know a little bit more about how that's uh going to work out on that one corner. Otherwise, everything else that you're uh proposing seems seems well thought out and reasonable to me, but I I really would like us to know a little bit more about just that little corner as because it really it's kind of striking when you go and look at the blocks up there. Thanks.

Thank you, Elizabeth. Thanks for your presentation, Eric. Um, I appreciate you telling us what's going on there. Um, I'm wondering though, how are you going to stabilize the soils and uh drain it and reinforce it um without further going into the um the neighbor's soil that is um not remediated? I I feel like both the concrete wall and the block wall would require some sort of stabilization um geoexile geog grid and you would end up in the neighbors um soils anyway. So I'm not sure how that's going to help you. Have you thought about the structural stabilization of that block? Um and I agree with everyone. I did go and see the material on site. I prefer the smaller block because I feel like the large um block looks like highway um construction, but it would be good to see an elevation and also a section through this area to understand how, like I said, how you're stabilizing the soils behind it, how you're um draining it, how you're maintaining um soil and erosion controls. And so, yep, that's all I have. Thank you, uh, Peggy.

Hi, Eric. Excuse me. Thank you for your presentation. Um, again, the the wall is, you know, your choices are limited, and I completely understand why you can't use a material that you would have to go into someone else's property. it would be an extraordinary burden on you. And so, um, I don't I don't love the block, but I understand why it it's the choice. And so, um, I get it. And I would I would love to see a section. I always want to see a section, and I would love to see that through that wall and how it's going to work. Um, and um, uh, I had a question about the planting plan. um more about there's a red maple in the front yard in the front lawn area and um I don't really understand what's going on. Why why is that there? How is that going? How what will that look like? In all of the renderings, there's no um there isn't a tree there. I don't understand um exactly why there's just the one tree. What's the idea behind it? I guess right there. Yeah.

Yeah. Uh I can jump in. Um don't know the answer to that. Would have to go back and look and and talk through sort of what it was. And my landscape architecture team's not here. Um they do a lot of work in Ithaca full confidence in their decision-m, but it was in 2022 probably that that was initially discussed and located there. So, don't remember exactly what it is, but um can I Sorry, Peggy. Are you Yeah. Um thank you. Okay. Um I wondered if we could um maybe ask Michael since you have him here. Um or Eric if you know sort of can you give any detail to drainage and the structural stabilization to that block wall? I think it sounds like that would be helpful.

I can. Yeah. And apologies for not including a section. We absolutely should have done that which would have shed some light on this. It is a gravity wall system. So the lowest block is um very large like the lowest level blocks are extremely wide. Um so this red actually represent you know the blue is the wall height that you kind of will perceive or I'm sorry the wall thickness that you will perceive. The red is like the lowest level blocks which are like four or five feet deep. And because the this is just the type of wall that it is there's enough weight in the wall and the way that the blocks interlock with each other. Um this type of wall does not require a geog grid or something that would tie back into the soil. The it is just its own weight that um and it's interlocking and the engineering behind it that uh retains the soil. Um and then from a drainage perspective again we have you know the the wall is going to go in front of the bedrock cut that you would have all seen out there today. um behind the the last wall are um perforated pipes that would take any water that builds up behind the wall and direct it to the storm um in that's already on the site. So from a drainage perspective, the water would run down in a crusher run of rock that's behind the wall into a perforated pipe that then gets diverted to the storm system, which really on our site here, the storm goes into a rain garden up against the building and then slowly disperses into the system. Um, so I think that answers those two questions. I was uh just to make sure I answered them, Emily, there was drainage and structural. Is that was that the two?

Yes, that's good. That sounds good to me. Um, any follow-up questions from those concerned? No, that sounds good to me. I'd like to see a suction still. And Andy, I guess I don't understand. Um, Eric, behind the wall again as it's turning the corner at the driveway and tapering down. What's behind it? Do you back fill between the wall with with what? Uh it's it's stone that's drainable like drainage stone up until the last Mike help me out here 6 in and then the top is like just soil that we would be able to put like meadow seed mix on.

There would be a capstone. So that's it's kind of behind that. But we back fill basically with stone so that water can drain down and get into the perforated pipe. and just the very top couple inches. So, is it kind of a a a twoft pathway of meadow that kind of follows the the wall? Like you could walk up it between your new wall and the existing gorge wall.

Uh I don't know that you could walk there. Um, but I guess you could walk on top of the wall, but the soil is coming down up the hill. It's not flat on the other side of our wall. So, there's a big hill that is there that's currently stabilized with a bunch of vegetation.

I um, interestingly, we just did my own backyard project at my house, which is on a hill, and we had a a backyard sized version of what you're describing in my own backyard. Um, and so I it would be curious to see if there is an, you know, an option for plantings up there. And I, you mentioned sort of meadow meadow grasses, you know, that would be great. I don't know if there's other ground cover, that would be really interesting, but that could also help kind of soften that intersection. Um, if it is some sort of like a ground cover that could, I don't know, an ivy or something of that nature. Yeah, it's set it's it's something designed to be low maintenance that we don't have to get up and maintain, right? Because it's very it's a little bit awkward. So, it would be similar to what's on the hill today kind of. I mean, there wouldn't be trees necessarily, but it would just blend in with that. So, it would be tall grasses and meadow seed mix that doesn't need to be mowed or maintained.

Okay. Thank you. Um I have a question for Nikki and Lisa. A couple questions. Um, since we're talking about sort of the engineering details of this wall change, would those details be submitted and then need to be approved by engineering, city engineering? Could we make that a condition of approval? Is so they usually have their own engineers and because it's private land and that's who's Yeah. stamping it, stamp drawings that we then

Okay. So, it wouldn't be approved by city engineering, but we could request Eric um sort of that final section engineered sort of uh the drainage and the stability as a as a condition of the approval. We could request that to be submitted to staff. And I know that we're not supposed to do this, but I do have it and I can pull it up right now and just give a flavor and this would be need to be submitted formally and I completely agree, but if Andy or anybody would like to see it, I did I do have it and I can pull it up if we wanted to talk through it. But that was obviously not part of our initial submission. So I understand that

probably not necessary to pull it up. Um unless you disagree, but I think submitting it to Lisa and Nikki would be would be great. That was just um one question. What was my other question? Oh, the sidewalk and this the engineering comments that we got. That feels like a completely new issue that was spurred on by engineering. Um I kind of feel comfortable that what was approved was the three-foot sidewalk. And if that's not possible between the applicant and city engineers, it would come back to us again, right? So if I may suggest, maybe we can talk about this resolution and sort of punt on the sidewalk because it's it will come back if it is not doable. Um though I'm open to if anyone's uncomfortable with that. Um, okay. I heard a lot of still questions outstanding. Do we want to go around one more time um before we decide if we're going to move this forward tonight or wait? Elizabeth,

did you want to discuss any of the like aesthetic changes that um it looks like they either removed a parapit or the building is lower than the original um um renderings and there's a couple other changes that I noticed. Um I don't know if you want to discuss that now before we approve the changes cuz those

That's a good point. So you invited us to the site and we noticed some changes. So I wanted to offer the opportunity for for Erican for for Visom to sort of um tell us what those changes are or if you want to are there any more changes that you want to sort of submit to staff. Um it's it's better to know about them so we have the conversation rather than waiting for sort of a a visit to check for it. Um, so I'll just leave that out there. Maybe you can think about it. I'll come back to it and let's talk about the proposed changes in front of us. Andy?

Yeah, I I think Thank you for that, Emily. And I feel comfortable if we're saying we're going to, you know, split off the roadway issue. I think Eric described my question. Now I understand um that design. It makes sense. So, I'll go back to the block that I like the best, which was option number two, which had a combination of a big size, big scale stone and a smaller scale. And what I had asked um the contractors on site was, is this one unit that's repeated? Is there any way to get some randomness to this? You know, is it basically just one mold or does does this alternate come with other mixes of the three those three stones within the block? I don't know the answer to that. Uh we could definitely find out. Mike, I'm not sure if you have the answer to that if you're still there.

Yeah, I don't I don't have the answer to that, Eric. I I believe it's one mold, but I'd have to verify. But when they install it, it would be kind of a random pattern. So even though it's one mold, um you would have uh some different stacking kind of staggered. I understand. Okay. Oh, they're staggered. I see. Right.

So maybe we could focus on this one. While you have the slide up, Eric, we can focus on this option and kind of go around and give our preference. Um Andy, I think you said number alternative two is your preference. Yeah, I like the the coloration. You know, the warmth of the concrete does actually relate nicely to the existing wall that's kind of in bad shape, but it it is sort of that color and it look and the, you know, the building has, you know, a warmth to it. So, I liked that option. Okay, Jenny, I don't have a strong preference on this one, so I'll kind of defer to the rest of the board. Okay, Max. Yeah. Um, I I like either of the alternatives uh much better than the original.

Okay, Elizabeth said, Max, um, as I mentioned before, I prefer the smaller um, scale one because I feel like the large one without the different sizing looks like highway construction. Okay. And Peggy, um, yes, I prefer alternative one. um just seems more but it's just what I prefer.

Okay. And I prefer number two. So I have a straw poll of three of us for number two and one of us for number one and the other's deferring. So um that sounds like we would recommend alternative two. Okay, I'm seeing nods. Um let me just write that down. So I I think I'd like to I think we're getting to a consensus. I'd like to move that we um open the project changes. It's kind of discussed some language within it. Um can I have a motion to open Jenny moves and Andy seconds. Um okay. So now we can discuss project changes. Um I think if we're talking about language that first whereas changing the materiality of the eastern retaining wall from cast in place to a segmented block wall we should add with a cap.

Well with a cap. With a cap. Mhm. And that the applicant will follow up with the the engineering for drainage and structure um to staff. Do you have that below? I I think that might be to correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that be um better as a condition? Sure. Okay. Based on on the following condition. Okay. Submittal of

uh engineered drawings for drainage and structure of that block wall. Perfect. Um, I heard um also a condition that we would request ground cover at that top of that retaining wall where the fill is to be approved by staff or just ground cover in general. Yeah, I I mean I'm totally fine with metal mix if that's mix. Yeah. So then let's say a condition would be um uh fill behind the block wall um to be planted with meadow mix or Yeah. Yep. That sounds great.

And do we need to add the plantings of the dumper enclosure and the transformer? Did I just not see it? We talked about the transformer. We could put it on there. It doesn't matter. We could put it's going to be in the drawings. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it's in the drawing. It's captured. Um, okay. So, those are my changes. Does anybody else have additional changes or want to change my changes? Okay. Have another discussion and another resolution for the other aesthetic changes that were made to the building or do we not? Well, they haven't been they didn't come officially to us. Yeah.

So, I don't know. What do you recommend? I would think we would close this out and then open new project changes if they come forward. Okay. If if others are proposed, but they should come back to you with what other other changes. Okay. If they're Yeah. Um Okay, then let's I think we need to vote on that language of change before we vote on the full proposal. So, let's do um let's just do a roll call vote if everyone agrees with that change of language. Um Andy, yes. Jenny, yes. Max, yes. Elizabeth, yes. Peggy, yes.

Okay, I also vote yes. And so now, last chance. Anything else we want to do or we move it to vote? Kind of seeing nothing. Okay. Um so then we'll do a roll call vote to approve changes as we just read them. Andy, yes. Jenny, yes. Max, yes. Elizabeth,

yes. Peggy, yes. I am also a yes. Okay, so back to Eric and the team. Um, you've got your project changes as you've presented and as were described tonight. Um, but I would encourage you if there are other changes. Um, let's do this again. Bring them bring them forward. railings, parapit, changes in color, anything like that that are substantial. You can run them by staff to see if the staff feels they're substantial enough to bring it to the board. It might just be a staff level approval. Um, but I would encourage that you kind of make a list and then and then bring it to Li Nikki and Lisa. So, okay, that's all for tonight. Thank you. Um, thank you,

Julia, Mike, and Eric. Um, I suspect we'll see you again, but maybe not. Thank you. At the very least, the sidewalks. That's true. Great. Thank you. Bye. Okay, we're gonna look at a report from the director next. No report. Okay. Uh Nikki, we're going to talk about retreat. Well, I know

I know I reached out via email about the retreat um for 2026 looking at signs. Be very exciting. I promise. Um and everyone had said except for Elizabeth. So, I want to circle back and I don't know if I heard from Peggy, so just circle back here. Um, we either had said Thursday, January 29th, which I think does not work or Thursday, February 5th. So, I just wanted to see which one was better. Well, I think I said that Thursdays are not great for me, but if that's what it has to be, then um I'll Yeah. Okay. For either of those dates or is there on the 29th? Definitely not. Okay. Um, yeah, that was sorry, January 29th.

Yes. And what was the other one? February 5th.

Okay. Both both fine for me. Everybody else, I think. Okay. So, it's consensus February 5th. Is that okay, Elizabeth? February 5th. Should we I'll make every um attempt to attend. Thank you. Okay. 6 to date February 5th. Great. 2026. Absolutely. Because we'll have to have a place all that. Yes.

Lisa. Yeah. Okay. Can I say one thing? So, I just wanted to say that um um Max, uh Elizabeth, Nikki, and I and another planning staff member um attended a developer summit last week in Bingmpington. Um it was the intention was to bring together developers and um people who work in regulatory space and people who work in funding. It wasn't quite that kind of a balanced mix, but um it was there were some very interesting presentations. I don't know if you have anything you'd like to share with the group about what we heard.

Yeah, I I thought it was really good and worthwhile to to go over there. Really really interesting. It put in context a lot of the things that we might be thinking about here. Um just a couple of things to mention that others would be interested in was that one of the featured projects was the Southworks project. And that was in conjunction with um the refurbishment and redevelopment of u uh uh old industrial sites and brownfields and um and the opportunities associated with all of that. And so that was really informative and I thought was really helpful. Um the other and then they talked about some other you know large uh projects kind of in the region but um what caught my attention most uh was uh the interesting challenges faced to developing housing and uh the uh the fact that there's uh support uh available from the state for affordable housing and so there's quite a bit of affordable housing being developed. uh you know the high-end things don't seem to be a problem because there's people with lots of money so that doesn't really make a difference but what really makes a difference is for workingclass people kind of in the middle and in fact one one gentleman came and made a very eloquent uh uh point about kind of the the dignity of homeownership for workingclass people and how that's uh you know um uh being less and less available to people and Um so that was something that was really striking to me. It seems that there's no clear solution to that. It's really an economic problem uh of a a fundamental economic problem and one that we face here in Ithaca I think and I think that uh people all through the region do and then oh so while I have the floor sorry

I was I'm so verbose tonight. Um then the the last thing that was um talked about were the uh kind of micro developments and it was really cool because he was actually the featured spee and talking how you redevelop kind of abandoned uh business and retail sites and so forth that were other uses, you know, like a shopping mall or something or you know gas stations and and so forth and turn them into kind of really interesting urban spaces for residents and for business. And so the kind of places that he was talking about were like our press day alley. And so it was kind of cool because it was like, oh wow, we we should be the poster children up there. I mean, we we could have been as well, but it's that's a a movement that's going on uh kind of around the country and I thought that was really interesting, right? And you know, it's happening here and we're we're doing it as well. So anyhow, those were a few things that came to my mind. That was very well um summarized, Max, and I wouldn't expect any less from you. Um it was really interesting. There was a lot to consume and I'm really glad that we got the opportunity to participate. Um I wish that we were able to do more of those and um I really enjoyed the panel discussions and um even days after that I still was like, "Oh, and that was great and this was um wonderful." and that applies to ETHA as well. And so, um, yeah, I think Max really touched upon the highlights and, um, I hope that other board members are able to join us, um, on these kinds of, uh, chats. I think it's a good opportunity for everyone to learn more about, you know,

trends in development, urban design, and how relevant Ithaca is um in in the national kind of trends. And there was a lot of people there from Ithaca, and I was really glad to see Southworks. Um, and I'm hoping that Southworks invites us to go take a look um, soon as a board. Great. Yep. Andy,

can I ask a question? Um I hear a lot of discussion about sort of the missing middle and I'd love to have a discussion about um where affordable housing and the missing middle come together because my experience in you know just knowing people in Ithaca is you know when we talk about afford affordable housing there's so so much to it I mean it can be from you know a very low percentage of average monthly income um to a very high percentage and the higher percentage is kind of in line with sort of a typical job in Ithaca. So that's why I I I sometimes don't understand the missing middle because to me that seems like it's really affordable housing. There's, you know, even to get in on that level

is very difficult. So, I'm worried that people think, you know, missing middle is, you know, to me the missing middle, if it's a step up from affordable, is high-end. So, I'd love to, you know, hear more about what that really means.

Yeah, I think I think missing middle also refers to size. So for like developments for us um there have not been a lot as we spoke with the SPR amendments between two family house and 60 units like there's so it really is like the triplex and the four and the middle apartments as well which then could size and also I think for sure income and affordability. That's a good point. size, condo ownership, town houses, cottage courtyards, like it's it's that diversity, I think, too. Thinking of diversity of size and

so that was one of the things that they mentioned, right, was the idea of co-ownership and um what do we call it? We have a lot of these here in Ithaca, which is co-housing.

Co-ousing. Um uh and that would fill the middle, but I I still feel like there's not enough of it, right? Um, and we see that as we do our approvals and reviews that there's these really large developments and then smaller very small scale ones. Um, but we don't see that many. And I think especially I don't know if it's just Ithaca or all of New York State that there is a housing crisis. Um, and the affordable housing is not accessible to the middle and neither is the high-end housing. and how how do people do small developments and make it worth it um and address that middle. So it was really interesting.

Yeah.

Can I say that having worked in um affordable housing development the way that these that it's financed it's it's impossible to finance middle inome housing. there is something called middle- inome housing financing, but it's it doesn't really work. Um, and that one of the things with the the middle inome families is that they can find something on the open market and not have to go through what you have to go through every year, which is certifying your income and saying, "I this is what I this is how much I make. This is my family. This is who lives with me." it it's it's very invasive and um it doesn't appeal to a lot of people and I think that's a lot of the people who in our community who might want to live in or or be qualified to live in it would rather not have to go through that and so there's something that we can't hit because of the way LIITC works and the way that you just have to be you have to prove that if you don't prove it then you have to pay the full rent and so then like it's very very you can stay but you have to pay full market rent and it's very frustrating for people. That's my experience. I was going to say there were a lot of folks from um executive leadership in the state and it might be something at that level that needs to change which is um new regul new regulation and new um approvals to that effect. So great conversation. Um I think that's all we have for tonight. Right.

Okay. Can I have a motion to adjourn? Elizabeth moves. Andy seconds. All in favor?