Planning & Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

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Ladies and gentlemen, it is now 6 p.m. Welcome to the planning and zoning commission work session of Monday 18th of May 2026. April, has anyone signed up to speak on any item listed on the work session agenda? No one signed up. Please proceed. Thank you very much. Um, our first item is Mr. Sheepard from Verdenity. Did I say that? Close. Verdunity. There you go.

There you go. Had to stop and think about Unity. Um, so we're very pleased to have you here tonight and I understand you're going to give us an overview of the land use fiscal analysis project. But um on who you are and how you got to that name. Um but as y'all know we or hopefully you know we um put out an request for a proposal last fall and we got some responses and we scored and Verduni was our selected consultant. So, we are currently in the beginning steps of doing a fiscal analysis study. And so, uh, part of that is we wanted him to explain to you what we're doing and why we're doing it and then what we plan to get out of it and how we want to use it. Um, it's it's really exciting stuff, especially now with the way the economy is getting tighter. Uh, you know, every time the state legislature goes into session, we never know we're going to get out of it. So, it's just kind of a way to take back a little control and provide some more information as we make the decisions on on the the future of the city. So, um, we're excited about this project and, um, he'll just kind of give you an overview of what we're starting out.

It's not. It's on now. No. Yeah. Too loud.

Okay. So, everything we do is grounded in fiscal sustainability and it goes back to um you know, every every company has their like origin story, right? Um I'm a civil engineer by degree. um grew up in North Texas designing municipal paving, drainage, water, sewer, a little bit of highway stuff um for like the first 17 years of my career and then got the opportunity to interview for my former firm's uh national director of the community planning practice. Um have no idea how I got it, but I did. Uh and well, I do it. They told me it's because I knew the the matrix of our our organization, all the different things that we did, but I really knew how cities worked. Um, and so I went from the world of um, civil engineering and mostly working in North Texas or across Texas to um, going all over the country working with cities of all different shapes and sizes and political angles and all the things. And what I started to see after about a year, year and a half of doing that was that no matter where I went, big city, small city, rural, urban, suburban, um, political, left, right, very few cities had the money that they needed to pay for their infrastructure. Um, and so I'm going to get into a little bit of of what I discovered there and how that's kind of informed what we do. Um, and this um, Lane use fiscal analysis and the development uh, fiscal impact analysis tool that we're going to be giving youall at the end um, is really kind of the the core um, the core service that we do um, as a lead into everything else whether that's comp plans or CIPs or anything like that. So, I'm going to give you a a little bit of an overview of of kind of the what the the LAN use fiscal analysis is intended to cover. Um, and then we'll get into some examples of a couple of the things that you're going to see when we finish your analysis. So, I already kind of went through this. It's um kind of a funny story. I told my wife when when I left my national director role to to start Verdunity that one of my goals was to not travel as much. And so for about the

first I don't know seven, eight years of our firm, we stuck around mostly in Texas and then um other places care about fiscal sustainability too. Um and so now we're um we're back working across the country. This uh this is a little a little dated, but um it's kind of cool to to see more and more places that really care care about um making their place truly fiscal uh fiscally sustainable. Um, so I always start here. When you look at any city's comp plan, um, website, strategic plan, anything like that, you're going to see some version of we want to be fiscally solvent or fiscally responsible. We want to be environmentally resilient. We want to be socially inclusive. We want to have uh attainable housing or housing for everyone. We want to enhance the quality of life. All these good things. But when you look at the daily decisions uh that are being made um those decisions, those discussions um most importantly the investments um rarely align with those outcomes. Um and so we're left with fragile uh volatile local economies and city budgets. We've got deteriorating neighborhoods um and infrastructure. We've got growing affordability gaps. Um and this last one, frustrated residents. You know, frustrated residents can mean a lot of things. It can be everything from apathetic to flatout angry, right? Um seen some weird things in city halls uh in the last couple of couple of years uh around the country. But really what this gets at is is we have we have some some different expectations of what we want our communities to be. Um, and most people are not willing able or willing and able um to pay for what it really costs to deliver uh on those expectations. Um, but from a development pattern standpoint, we've been doing a lot of policies, a lot of whether it's land use, housing,

infrastructure that lead to these generic, I would argue unsafe uh in different ways places that the bottom part here is what's really important. Um, when you build generic places, it's very difficult for your residents and your resident your residents and your businesses to want to reinvest in those places. A company will come in, they'll do what they need to do in Irving for 10, 15, 20 years and they're going to move on to the next place. um residents. It's very easy when um when the neighborhood starts to decline, when housing, you know, property values or whatever get too high or too low, whatever it is, um you'll see that tension that if they don't have a reason to love and stay and reinvest in that place, especially here in Texas, they're going to move somewhere else. And we're seeing that with kind of people moving out and out and out. Um, I've been asking um this question of city managers and mayors and councils for I don't know the better part of 15 years. Um, when it comes to managing growth and development in your city, what's the biggest challenge or frustration that you're dealing with? And the over the overwhelming majority um going back 14 15 years ago all the way up to today is some version of this. How do we address the growing wants and needs of our residents with limited resources? Right? City managers are definitely in absolute bullseye of this. If they've got developers wanting things, they've got all their department heads wanting things. They've got council wanting things. There's a lot of tension there. And it's a lot of um frankly a lot of wants. Some of them are needs, but there's a lot of wants there um and not enough resources to pay for it. You've also got this going on. Um, fragile economies, local bankruptcies. Um, you know, it's a lot of times with cities and counties, it's not a hard bankruptcy. It's more kind of slow

insolveny, but there's a lot more beyond um this slide, whether it's Flint or Jackson, Mississippi. Um, there's a lot of places that are starting to they're start they're struggling to have the money to cover their basic water is really the main thing, right? And when you as a city cannot pay to maintain your water service, um that's that's a problem, right? Um I like to point out here San Bernardino, California. Um my dad worked for Shell, so growing up we lived all over the place. Um and one of those places was San Bernardino. I was little. Um but it was late late '7s. Um very early ' 80s when we lived there. Um, and they were I I asked my dad this question back when we first started getting in into this. I was like, "What's what was what was San Bernardino like when we as a young family were living there compared to North Texas today?" And he's like, "Actually, very very similar. It was best place to live, work, play. All the companies were moving there. All the all the people were moving there." In 2011, they filed for bankruptcy, right? Um, Stockton is the same story. Everybody knows the the Detroit one. And yeah, there's some pension stuff and other stuff mixed in here too. Um, but when you dig into these, a lot of it has to do with infrastructure uh funding and the development pattern. So, which we're going to dig into. Um, Truth and Accounting is a really great group that does um does some work. They put out this report once a once a year where they look at the fiscal health of of cities um states and cities. Um but in the last 2025 one they found that 54 cities across the country of the bit they study I think it's the top 75 um yeah it's down there at the bottom the top 75 largest cities across the country um but 54 of the 75 that they looked at did not have enough money to pay for their bills when you really account for what it really cost to uh to do to do some things that then down there at the

bottom the total debt for those 75 cities was over 300 uh billion um and every year they've put this out that the number of cities that go into the red goes goes up. So this was the question that I was asking back in 2011, 2010, 2011. Um, with all the growth um or with all the wealth and the growth that we have in this country, we're supposed to be the most prosperous country. You know, why couldn't our cities um pay for their infrastructure? Why do our uh our cities still today struggle struggle to pay for basic services and infrastructure? Um, and one of the reasons, I won't say it's the reason, I won't say it's the only reason, um, but one of them, and the more we do this, the more strongly I feel about this, um, is the development pattern. It's where and when and how we've built our cities. Um, and it kind of gets at this, uh, post World War II, 1950ish, um, we shifted to this very aggressive growth model. all of a sudden, you know, with car and land use policy, housing policy, you could go grab up lots of land, you could build lots of um single family homes um in a short amount of time. And so we we went all in on this model of fast growth, high quality of life um in the short term without fully considering the long-term costs, whether that's um the life cycle costs of infrastructure, which we're going to talk about in a second, um water quality, water supply, um housing impacts, social impacts. There's a lot of long-term impacts that come from the way that we've u been building our places. Um, and so what about maintenance after growth, right? It's really great when you're in growth mode and you're building all the new shiny shiny new stuff and you got everybody moving to your town, but what about maintenance after growth? These are real places um that were once, you know, uh

fully inhabited, active. Um, and what you see a little bit over time is as um as things start to decline a little bit, the people who have the means to do it will move. and those who don't have the moon mood means get stuck there, right? And so you you get this kind of gradual plateau and then it really starts to decline because tax revenues decline, um sales tax declines. Um, and so, um, one of the things that I wanted to accomplish when when we started our firm was take some of these lessons that I had learned from other parts of the country, bring them to Texas, where we're still blessed to have all of the growth and investment that we have, and try to get us to make some changes so that we don't end up like this. But um in many many places we are building cities that we can't afford to live in as residents and we can't afford to maintain them as city governments. Um sometimes people will push back on me on that and that's fine. Um this is this was my opinion a while back and it's just gotten stronger the more math that we do on places. Um but we can get it back. We can get it back and that's what the Slaney's fiscal analysis process is about. Um, how many of you are familiar with Strong Towns? Anyone? Some of you? Okay. Um, Chuck from Strong Hounds, he's the the founder, kind of the the main guy behind um, Strong Towns, which is a nonprofit. Um, his background of mine is very similar. Civil engineers, got into planning. Um, and I I actually reached out to him back in 2010 when I was struggling with some of this stuff. And, um, so I've known him a while. We've done a lot of work in collaboration, but um over the years, but Chuck does a really really good job of explaining what what he calls the suburban experiment, basically that post um post 1950, postw World War II development pattern. And I just have a couple of

slides in here to hit on it, and I can unpack this later. You guys can go watch and read more Strong Towns if you want. But this is how we used to build our cities, right? You would have a place, people would move there, they'd build a few buildings, they'd start doing their thing, and over time they would incrementally grow that place. So, this little dinky street turns into this, right? There were no zoning codes back then. There were no economic incentives. It was we build it a little bit of time as the people are here and as we have the resources to do it. So, Chuck would say we we built things incrementally out, incrementally up, and incrementally more intense. So we would go out a couple of blocks at a time and then we would say, "Oh, we need to kind of come back in the middle and add another story." And um and so we would do that incrementally over time and it was very very um fiscally financially sound, right? Um this is what that development looks like in neighborhoods. This is a neighborhood outside of Indianapolis. It's one of my favorites um that I've ever seen in in the work that we do. But what do you what do you see on that street on the left? Like what stands out to you?

Anything? The what? Apartment building. The apartment building. Okay. What about the setbacks? What about the street?

Yeah, the street's really narrow, right? Street's narrow. You got cars parked on it. Um, you've got trees a little further or a little they're a little closer to the sidewalk now. Uh, and then on the right you see a bunch of houses with the front porches, right? This is the way we used to build our neighborhoods. It was Jane Jacobs called it the eyes on the street, right? We we designed places so that the activity was in the front of the street in the public street. Um, the traffic when there was some was going slowly. Um, so it was a very kind of human scale process. These were designed well before the car. Um, and then they got retrofitted later when when cars came in. Um, but you see a lot of older um, you know, neighborhoods like this, the the older kind of 1940s, 1950s um, approach. Neighborhoods like this are very hard to build today, right? Because of the codes and because of what we've zoned out of things. Um, and I'm going to come back to that because that's important. So, this is traditional. This is preWorld War II how we how we built places. So it was incremental and it was also a little more little more dense, a little more people and walkable focused. Then we shifted to this, right? So um a lot of single family, a lot of spread out, a lot of driving everywhere. When everybody drives everywhere, it leads to the big old roads. And at my former life, we love to design stuff like that, right? That was big money contracts for us. Um and I did a whole bunch of designing of those kind of things over there. Um, and then you obviously have the economic development that comes that comes with it. So, when you design housing and development in a more spread out way, you're going to get commercial that fits that same spread out where their market is a larger market and they have everybody driving to them, which leads to the bigger parking lots and all of that, right? The commercial that you see in these neighborhoods is right down the street, right? So, there's a lot more commercial, but it's smaller. This

is probably a lot less commercial, but it's bigger. Um, and so a couple you're going to see some of this for Irving when we when we finish yours, but I've got got a mix of slides in here from work that we've done in different places just to kind of illustrate some of the concepts. Um, this is from V Victoria, Texas down by Houston or down south of Houston. And I love this one because it's just it's the best map I've seen that really kind of clearly shows the um the post 1950 um pattern. Um you see in the the green area down in the core uh that's their historic pattern, the square, you can kind of see the the gritted streets kind of showing through there. And then you get into the yellow that's 1950. And then the orange is the ' 60s7s8s. And then the red is the the new. So you went from a very compact pattern to a very spread out pattern, right? And when they built spread out um they were doing it in lower density development. So in this um in this case uh from 1950 to 2020 their area their their city limit area grew 13 times. Their population only grew four times. So they built a bunch of stuff, bunch of roads and water sewer pump stations, water towers, fire stations, all the things for this bigger area. But the density, the the cost per household went up, right? More stuff, less people. So the cost per household goes up. That's one of the biggest benefits of density. Um you spread that cost over more people. Um this is another way to to think about, you know, that suburban experiment or or the kind of the postw World War II expansion. Every every city would start over here on the left side. You're a small town. and you've got your little main street or courthouse square. Um you build a little stuff, you have a few people um and then you kind of get here in the middle um and all of a sudden the growth comes to you. So the

population goes up quite a bit. Um developers come in and build a lot of new stuff and so the average age of your city goes down. That the average age of the infrastructure as you drive around town goes down a lot because you're building a lot of new stuff, right? And in this middle part, which I like to say is the best place to live, work, play phase, um you drive around town, you see all kinds of new neighborhoods, new schools, new new stuff. And the core downtown, that core main street or square where your city started is the historic kind of touristy part of town, right? And you have a lot of revenue from that growth. You're getting new property tax revenue, new sales tax revenue, getting a lot of revenue, and your costs are still relatively low, right? Um, and so you can use some of that additional revenue to take care of the old part of town. And then usually what a lot of councils have done is when they have surplus revenue, what do they do in Texas? Lower the tax rate. Right? So if you follow this for a while, it's like, oh, we're growing. Boom. Look at the extra revenue. We're lower the tax rate. Lower the tax rate. Lower the tax rate. Um, but how how long does a a typical street last? Anybody know? 50 years

if you're lucky 50 years right back then if it was built back in the 40s 50s it's going to go 30 years whatever so you fast forward to the right side of this uh your city starts to approach buildout you don't have as much new development so the revenue from new new development starts to flatten out right and then at the same time all that infrastructure dang it all that infrastructure that was put in by developers in the growth phase it It's not preventative maintenance anymore. It's it hits the end of its life cycle and it has to be replaced. Right? This is the typical Texas suburbs. This is what the rust belt went through probably 15 20 years before us. Grow grow over about 20 years is what most cities kind of growth phase and then about 20 or 30 years later all that infrastructure stuff overwhelms them. So, think of somewhere in the metroplex, first any any first ring suburb of Dallas, right? You all kind of know them. When was their growth phase? 70s and 80s, right? What do those places look like today with all of their neighborhood streets and infrastructure? They're struggling, right? Um, so flattening this out a little bit is one of the things that we try to do if it's a growing if it's a growing place. Um, but even if and I would I would argue we'll see where Irving fits falls, but you're you're somewhere in that two to three transition phase, if not in three. Um, so again, we'll we will unpack this more. Um, but just to think about what um what happens to a road over time, the cost of a road, we always like to focus on streets. That's what everybody sees. The same thing applies to water, sewer, drainage, parks, facilities. Um, but when they're built, when they're are early in their their life cycle, you have some prevent some lowcost preventative kind of stuff, it doesn't

it doesn't cost a lot to take care of them, right? Then you get kind of in the middle. Um, and you've got a little more significant rehab stuff. That's probably what some of your bond money or CIP money goes towards. Maybe some of your general funds goes to to that. But then when the road gets to the end of its life cycle, it effectively has to be completely rebuilt, right? And rebuilding roads is not cheap, right? Um we'll we'll use some number anywhere we've been using somewhere between 750 to 1.5 million a lane mile. Um it's creeping towards two. Um so if you think about a typical residential street that is probably what Justin, what's your typical residential street here? 27 31 the width.

Oh u pavement is 30.

30. Okay. So, we'll make the math easy. Instead of an 11t lane, we'll say 10T. But, but if every residential street is essentially three lanes, you're looking at somewhere between $3 to5 million a mile to replace those streets. So, one of the things that we're going to do is say how what's all the streets in Irving and if you had to replace them all today, what does that cost look like? And then if you spread it out over 40 or 50 years and just annualize it in today's dollars, what that what does that look like? It is a huge number. Um it's not intended to like scare anybody, but it is intended to show you the the magnitude of what's coming that you probably haven't been planning for. Um so options to close the resource gap, and we're going to get into the specifics of the land use fiscal analysis now, but there's basically a couple options here. You can, if you have a gap, you can increase taxes and fees. Nobody's big fan of that one, right? Uh, you can reduce services. This is what most of our cities are doing now. When you get to budgeting, you say, "We have this much money. We're going to pay for this much, and anything else is going to get what? Deferred, cut, whatever, right? But if you defer and cut too many times, your neighborhoods end up like those pictures I showed you, and people are going to leave." So, what we like to say is how can you develop in a more productive manner or redevelop in a more productive manner that tries to align your development and service model with what your residents are willing and able to pay for. That's really what we're talking about is what what can your community pay for realistically? What can they afford? And then fitting our development pattern and services and infrastructure to that. Um, alignment requires trade-offs. You cannot you cannot have low density and low taxes and predictable um public services. You cannot have all three of those. Something has to give. You either

have to pay more in taxes. If you want low density and predictable services, you're going to have to um pay more in taxes. If you want uh low taxes and predictable services, then you're going to have to have some higher density. One of these three has to has to give a little bit. And it doesn't have to be one across the whole city. you can kind of flex these to different neighborhoods and different um and different places, but this has been a really helpful graphic for us in terms of just talking to the the average citizen about um how these different variables kind of play together. So, um when you're talking if it's a comp plan, if it's a budget, um you know, there there's a lot of technical jargon that's out there and and what we've found is people understand the language of money. A property owner wants to know the value of their property and what they pay in taxes and where it goes. A developer is always doing proformance. And so if we can put things in in that kind of language, um it helps us talk about some of these problems and ultimately work towards more uh shared solutions. Um and the question is just to to be asking is how are we going to pay for this? Mr. Mrs. Smith, that's fine that you want that. How are you going to pay for that? How's the city going to pay for that? It's a really powerful way to kind of disarm some emotional conversations um sometimes. So, I use fiscal analysis to inform our development decisions. I think y'all are teen up for a comp plan update maybe one two years um out. Um we do this sometimes we do this as a standalone effort like this. Sometimes we do it as part of a comp plan. Um but and sometimes we just do workshops with councils and and folks like you guys. So what is Elani's fiscal analysis? Um it's a parcelbased analysis of the revenues and cost to serve for every property in the city. So for every property in the city, we're going to look at what does it generate in revenue, property tax and sales tax. Um sales tax, we can't get down to the

specific property, but we can get it into areas. So for every property in the city, we're going to look at what does it generate in revenue and what does it cost to serve and what's that net? You're going to find some properties that generate more in revenue than they cost and you're going to find a lot of properties that cost more than they bring in in revenue. Um, so generally you think citywide budget they're going to match, right? Revenues match, costs, they're equal. But when you start to look at different development patterns and parcels, some are up here and some are down here. Um, another thing that we'll do and probably the and I show a couple of examples of this um, here in a a little bit, but um, so we do it for the g the current budget and then we take what if you had the money that you really need for your streets or your parks or any of these unfunded liabilities. We'll work with staff to figure out exactly which ones you want us to to incorporate, but we say, "What if you had what you really needed?" and we'll layer that into it. So, you can see what things look like in current budget conditions and then you can see what they what's they what they look like um when you really load the full cost. Um and when we do that, that's what seems that that's what really starts to expose the the larger lot suburban model that has wider streets and culde-sacs and is further out on the edge. There's a lot more cost to serve uh of that, especially infrastructure. Um, and the opposite of that is, um, density. There's a lot of there's always perceptions that density has a lot more cost to it. That's not always true. Um, and so we try to drill those numbers down so that we can prove it up with data and show what what things cost. Um, and then you can kind of slice and dice this by different lot sizes and zoning and neighborhoods and all kinds of things that we'll um that we'll get into. lots of ways to back to that that fiscal sustainability is a common language. There's a lot of ways that this can be applied. Um it can just be a

common language for education engagement if if your city says we do want to be a financially resilient place. Um it's a way for residents to hold elected officials accountable to that. Um instead of just using it as a campaign thing, they can actually be held to some of those decisions of is this really in the best fiscal interest of our city? Um it's very powerful in in Jocelyn's world of land use and zoning and development evaluation of how do we align our development pattern with what um residents are willing and able to pay not just today but in the future. Um and then there's other ways to look at things like your infrastructure strategy, economic development. Um there's a lot of different things that can come out of this that um everyone we do is different. Every city has different takeaways from this process of where they want to focus. Some say we want to reduce the width of our roads. Some say we want to focus on vacant lots and infill. Um, some say they want the exact same pattern that they have, but they just need to do better at charging what it really costs to serve that pattern. Right? It's not our job to tell you what's right or wrong. Our job is to show you the data, facilitate conversations, and let Irving decide what Irving wants to do.

The goal, though, is to make sure everything aligns with what people are actually paying. So, we're going to do stuff like this. This this is actually Irvings. Um, we'll do kind of a a high level dive into your um into your budget. One of the things that we like to look at is just what's your general fund mix between property tax and sales tax. You guys as a larger as a larger city, as a more mature city, you have a a higher property tax percentage than a lot of places do. Younger growing cities will have 20 to 30% of their revenue from property tax. um and a lot more from development fees, right? And the the narrative with them is you have to build stuff so that the property tax from what goes on the ground can replace the revenue you're getting from the development fees. Um sales tax, um I would think for a city the size of of Irving, your sales tax maybe be, you know, a little bit a little bit more, but um we'll we'll see and and dig into that a little bit. Um on the expense side um something that we like to do is just it's a very um basic a couple of very basic metrics but we take your general fund we do this for the revenue too but um for this slide it's on the expense side. Take your general fund expenditures divide those by your population your household and your city limit area and you can get a general fund per capita per household and per acre. When you look at those over time, it could kind of show you some interesting um interesting trends. And they they do tend to show in general over most of the cities that we've looked at. The more density you build, um your general fund, your cost per capita and cost per uh household will go down. Um and your general fund per acre will go up. Um so just another metric that we that we look at. We'll look at

your population density trend over time. Um, sometimes you can see some correlations from those general fund numbers and the the population changes that that have been made over the years. Um, we will dig into your street cost. This one's from New Bron Falls. But what what we like to do is look at your pavement condition study, talk with your engineers, public works folks, get that um get that big number for your street replacement, and then we'll spread it out over five or 10 year periods based on the condition of the streets. So the the worst stuff has to be fixed first. The the good stuff gets pushed off in the future. But um in the case of New Bron Falls um I don't recall what their uh what their total number was but you can kind of see here that they have you know they had 35 million right in 2025 that needs to be taken care of now. Um their public works folks were struggling to get the money just for that 35. Um but the the 2030 number really jumped out to them. The 2035 and 2040 they felt like well we can kind of plan and set up some bond elections and other things to to help with those. But 2020 2030, we did this study in 2024, the end of 2024. 2030 wasn't that far away. And that's a big that's a big number. So this isn't the only number. Um public works, engineering always have um you know, some studies that can look at with some regular investment how you might be able to spread these out a little bit more. Um, but I'm surprised how many places we talk with that have no idea if we just ask the the the question of like what would it take for you to replace all the streets in Irving today or all of your water lines today, we get crickets in a lot of places. And that's uh that's something that I hope we fix with this process. I have a hunch your guys and gals probably have some uh some level of a handle on this, but it'll be fun to to dig in with them. Okay, so we get into the value per acre mapping. What we do is we take um we start with

the assessed value of the property and we just do the assessed value divided by the size of the parcel and you get a value assessed value per acre and then we drill down at the actual tax revenue that's collected both property tax and sales tax and then we layer costs into it. This is this is Dallas County from the most recent uh certified tax roles. Um the darker the green and the higher bar, the higher the value per acre is, right? Um but it's always interesting to look at these at a county level and just see the the power that a downtown Dallas has in terms of that value per acre, right? Um you can also see Irving pretty clearly on this. Um, what I like to point out, um, in any DFW area conversation I'm having is we're all familiar with that conversation about the lack of investment in South Dallas, right? I haven't seen very many maps that show it as powerfully as this one does. Look at all of the dark green that goes up between 75 and 35, right? The the V in the north part of the county. But the county, Dallas County, has to serve a lot of this, right? So, if you're the city of Dallas or Dallas County, a lot of those vacant lots or undervalued lots, investing back in some of them and raising that value um you know, can help spread the cost across the the rest of the county or the city. The same thing's going to be the case here. We're going to dive into Irving and show you these same kind of maps um to see where your um you know where your most fiscally productive places are and where the places are that um that maybe um aren't doing as well. It's also sometimes we'll get comments of from some of the different suburbs that think they're quite affluent and doing well and on this map they're just a little bitty a little bitty blip. Um oops. Okay, so these are two from uh Brownsville that we did a couple years ago. Um that just kind of show the the power of the graphics. Um I like these

two just cuz they're it's one of the more extreme ones that we've done. So this is their uh this is their uh this was an ROI one. So return on investment. So this is current budget. Every dollar that's spent, what do they get back? Um and then the the green um if it's if it's yellow or green, it's getting at least that dollar back. If it's the red, it's losing money. So, this was their current budget condition. Um, we did their street analysis. They had um 1 point close to $1.3 billion was the cost to replace all of their streets back in 2017. $66 million a year. They were spending around 3 million a year. Um, so got some ugly words from the council dis when we presented this that night. But when you take that 60 that unfunded 63 million a year and you layer it into these properties, that's what it looks like. So this is what they have in current budget and things are looking good. This is what they really need when you factor in this just the street cost. We didn't do parks, we didn't do drainage, we didn't do so this was just streets. Um, but what you can take away from some of these is you can look at with this map, you can look at where are the places that stayed green even when you load more costs on them and kind of dig into why. And a lot of times it's the core down that's their core downtown or here's some of their kind of newer commercial mixeduse stuff along the the corridor. Um, but what Brownsville took away from this is they wanted to reinvest down in the downtown and the neighborhoods around it. Um, bump their downtown um, ROI even more and then elevate some of the housing and neighborhoods um, around it. We'll get into looking at different kinds of developments um, and comparing the numbers just for those. So, we'll um, we'll take rural, suburban, single family, town homes. we can kind of pick

some different ones that that staff want to see. We'll pull some examples. Um, in this case, the the rural example on the left um is getting uh 98. This is just the assess value. So, it's getting a little under 99,000 per acre. The suburban single family in the middle is getting 2.5 per acre. Um, and the town homes are getting um over 17 million per acre. That's just the assessed value. when you go in and you know when we allocate cost to these there's a different approach to all of these of how much infrastructure they take and shared parking and things like that but when you just look at the assessed value per acre if you said the the land that Irving has is just you know this area inside the horseshoe here right that's the the land that Irving has to develop on it if you built it all with stuff on the left you're going to have a certain assessed value out of that right versus if you built it with all on the right you're going to have a higher assessed value and without changing the tax rate, you're going to have a lot more tax revenue, right? So, so the development pattern is a lever that we haven't talked enough about in budgeting. We always talk about the tax rate and fees and things like that, but you can generate more revenue to the city just with the development pattern itself. And yes, these all have costs with them, too. And that's what we're going to get into when uh when we allocate and show you some of the net uh uh the net results. Um we also do this on the commercial side. You got a suburban pad site, you got a big box, you got the downtown grid. Um downtown grids in almost everywhere outperform the big boxes, the suburban stuff. Um the beauty of the downtown grid is they have the the mix of all the different smaller, you know, different shapes and sizes, right? when one business goes out, another one can come in. Um when the Walmart leaves or the big box leaves, um you know, we're all seeing what's kind of going in some of those, right? Um there are some cool projects now that are some of these big box sites and in

some other parts of the country, they're they're actually they're big enough sites that you can actually retrofit them to be, you know, a new kind of mixeduse node. Um y'all have some of those that are big enough to, you know, to look at things like that. But just understanding that the development pattern can generate more revenue to the city without changing the tax rate. I've had a lot of really powerful conversations with residents that have come into a comp plan or a code or something and they're very anti-density, right? And you say, "Okay, this is this is fine, but with this, here's what you know, here's what your tax rate would have to go to to pay for this." Um or if you approve a little bit of density in certain places, the city can get some additional revenue and you can keep your tax rate where it is or or close. And a lot of those people will move towards supporting some density. It's just where does it go? How is it designed? And that's a very different conversation than heck no, we don't want any density in our town at all. Right? Um and it's just this looking at this stuff for the city is just like a personal like an investment portfolio, right? you're going to sprinkle things around high risk, low risk, all that. It's no, it's the same thing for a city. You don't want to go all in on one or the other. Um, I think the advantage in today's market in North Texas that places like Irving and some of the older cities have is you have some of the bones with the lot size and the grided network and some of that that both older and younger generations are looking for more of those type of neighborhoods um and not the drive everywhere suburban single family. Um, we have plenty of that across the metroplex and the places out in southern Oklahoma are continuing to build some of that, but there's a lot of demand for walkable mixed use at different scales. Um, so there's an opportunity to kind of marry the market with what the city needs to do to strengthen your fiscal situation. Um, this is another slide that's always um

really powerful in work that we do. Just shows the um the power of kind of the the small development. This is just single family. This is uh yeah, this is from Taylor outside of Austin. Um this is single family development. Across the bottom you see the different lot sizes. So the smallest lot sizes are on the left. The biggest ones are on the right. The blue bars is the average home value or average improvement value on those lot sizes. Um and yeah, you might look at some of those average home values and be like, "What? A house cost 150?" Um, but that blue line, what's really important here is that dark blue line that goes down from left to right, that's the revenue per acre. So, the smallest lots are the most affordable for residents and they have the highest revenue per acre to the city. Um, not saying we need to go off and build nothing but, you know, 2/10enth acre lots, but we've zoned out a lot of that. Um, and there's a big demand for smaller spaces. Um, and it's a fiscal win for cities. what a lot of the builders want to build is right in right in here, right? Um and so, uh this has been the the numbers are different, but the trend has been the same in every single city that we've ever modeled. Um, another thing to think about density, this uh this is a graphic from Eric Kroberg and Associates outside of Atlanta that does some really good housing specific work. Um, but it just shows two two blocks. Everything's the same. Dimensions of the block are the same. All the infrastructure in front, water, sewer, drainage, that's all there. Police, fire, you know, all all city services and infrastructure there are there. The bottom the bottom block has two houses on it, right? So all those that infrastructure around that block is divvied up across those two homes. The one on the top goes all the way to the other extreme and crams all kinds of different housing in there, different, you know, different lot sizes and housing types and ADUs and all the

things, but you can see with more households, you have you have more households to distribute that infrastructure over, right? And yes, you zoom out citywide and you have some high density and this kind of averages out. But if you really think about it, should um you know, should these people get the benefit of that up there, right? So, um it's just it's interesting when you kind of zoom in and look at the block level or look at just kind of development um levels of what those those costs are. And I always caution people that do kind of highlevel fiscal projections and they use the average cost per household. You know, what's this is a question we always get. I will who knows how far we'll get into this one before we get it, but people always want to know what what's the average household price in my city need to be to pay for everything? I cannot answer that question um because there's a lot of variables that go into it like this, right? Um, but we can kind of hone in on what does it cost for different kinds of of development. If it's single family, you know, quarteracre lots or 60 foot lots or if it's mixed use, we we can start to hone into what does the value need to be for that kind of pattern. Um, we'll get into some com um some uh comparisons like this. This was part of a comp plan we did for a really fast growing place outside of Austin, too. But we take a a vacant property and we look at if we just put this in with single family with mostly single family zoning. You got average um home of 3 325,000. Um you've got none of the other kinds of housing. You have a a maybe maybe some commercial right there. Maybe. Um but you can kind of see the the taxable value, the net cost. And that one's a um so it's got no commercial space. It's

got a little under 5 acres of green space and it's netting out at a loss of 81,000 per year for for this parcel. If we mix use this thing, go traditional um neighborhood, we mix different types of housing and lot configurations, you actually end up with u almost double the green space. You've got um everything from an $800,000 estate home to an 85,000 ADU. Um lots of stuff all together. three generations of a family could all afford to live within walking distance in this neighborhood. And oh, by the way, it's fiscally positive for the city, right? So, this mixed use stuff has a lot of fiscal benefits to the city and it also opens up that affordability spectrum more for for residents who would like to stay close to their kids or their grandparents or or whoever. Um, again, this is a lot harder to build with our current zoning codes and stuff. And I'm sure Jocelyn and her team have done some great work to allow more of this mixeduse kind of kind of stuff, but there's way too many places that just this is very easy and fast and quick to build and it's just driving cities towards insolveny like all day every day. And they're kind of hoping that the sales tax and commercial is going to make up the difference. So sales tax, sales tax and commercial does need to carry its weight, but um if all you build is low density this stuff, it's not sales tax is not going to make up the difference to pay for all the infrastructure, right? And the other part that we're starting to see is is there's a lot of people that are starting to be out be priced out of neighborhoods like this that are looking for stuff like this and they can't find it in their city. So, if you want to keep the people that you have in Irving here, you might need to look at at a balance. Um, this is I'm getting getting to the end here. So, this is um tail two

cities. These are two that Josh did um uh Lancaster Josh from from Martin now. Lancaster, California, Eugene, Oregon. We really like to show these two and we've started to put some comparisons um from several Texas cities together, too. But you can see that top line of their their population is pretty similar, right? Um, but if you go to the third line, and we really should reorder these and put the the road stuff down, but if you look at that third line, look at the the square miles of the area, right? Um, Lancaster is a much bigger um city. Eugene is a more compact. They've got topography that kind of forces them in a little bit. Um, but because of the different size um city limit size, you've got a density in Lancaster, California, 2100. Eugene's got over double that density, right? And where that really matters is back to the the feet of road per that that second line. Um L two things are happening in Lancaster. It's more spread out, so they have more roads, and it's back to that Victoria map that I showed you. It's lower density, so you have less households to pay for it. So that just shows the feet of road per person. Now, if I told you that was, I think, let's say 350 U bucks a foot, you know, that starts to show you kind of what the the annual cost, you know, for just for road maintenancees for for residents. So, density in the right places has a lot of power. Um, so to wrap us up, ultimately city's goal, um, every city's goal, if you say you want to be fiscally sustainable, um, you need to be balancing your development and services with what your residents are willing and able to pay for, not just now, but in the future. Um, sometimes I'll get the question of, well, some of our residents are just here for the next 5 years and then when their kids graduate, they're going to move off somewhere else. Um, but a lot of the folks that live and work in Irving want to stay here. um they have an expectation, a lot of people have the

expectation that when their city or when their street needs to be fixed, their city has the money to pay for it and usually that's not the case. So, um I think getting these things out in the open and talking about them is um the sooner you put it out there, the more transparent of conversation you can have about how are we going to, you know, line these things up over the over the years. Um, I always like to mention too if there's um, and Jocelyn, you can take this back to to staff or whatever, but there's, you know, there's all these ways that this can be applied, right? Um, there's a lot of benefits to to all of the departments in in participating in this. If you want to really maximize and strengthen the fiscal health of your city, you need your planning and your engineering and your public works and your finance and economic development all working together. Um because not there's not a one-sizefits-all solution. Like what works in one neighborhood is not going to be right in another one. And so um when you start talking about I'll give you an example. The public works guys are going to start with saying we don't want utilities under the street. We don't you know we want them behind the sidewalk up in the parkway where we can get you know it's very easy to access and replace them. Right? That's fine. But when you push stuff out you're using up more land. you're pushing the houses back, you have bigger lots and that's reducing the the assessed value per acre of that development. And so you if you really want to have the money for the roads and the street trees and all of that, they will also say, "Well, I don't want to do street trees. They're hard to maintain. They bust up the sidewalk, etc." Um, but when you do things like that, you spend a little bit more u money on um on putting it in. you spend a little bit more money on maintenance, but you get the value um back from that more urban environment. So, just getting all the different departments and even your neighborhood groups. There's also a lot of like really lowcost things that come

out of this that that residents will come up with that can just preserve and maintain their their neighborhoods. Um, and if you're preserving the quality of life in their neighborhood, it's going to preserve and protect those property values, too. So, lots of different ways to connect this in. We'll we'll get into this as we talk with the different departments through the through the journey, but I guarantee every department in the city, especially you're getting into budgeting, right? So, everybody wants money. All the departments want money. And so, a conversation about um how can we grow the pot by modifying our development pattern a little bit um helps everybody. So, just a few um a few quotes that have come from different places that we've worked. Residents, you know, this makes so much sense. I didn't realize we were so far behind on funding our infrastructure. Um, you know, the that third one from a council member, um, you know, about creating transparency and accountability between elected officials and their constituents, um, I thought was a really a really good one. Um, you know, the the last one there, recently retired city manager, um, public works background. He's worked around the metroplex for a while. But, um, I think this this is the one that I'll land on is that addressing aging infrastructure and resetting residents expectations for what can be covered with current tax rates is likely going to be one of, if not the primary challenge for Texas city managers over the next several decades. So, we have expectations of um I'm dating myself a little bit here, but people uh people want the Cadillac and they're paying for the Yugo or the Honda Civic or whatever you want to plug in there, right? But we have a big disc. Well, he's he's like, I know what a Yugo is, but right, like we have expectations that like we've been getting all this stuff for 30, 40, 50 years of all of this highquality development, but we haven't been we have not had to pay the real cost of it because those real costs have not come due. And now they're coming. And so cities like Irving and

everywhere all over Texas um are starting to have those conversations about how do we maintain what the past folks built? Um, I don't know. I'm missing the council briefing date, but here's some next steps as far as the study goes. We are up to our eyeballs in data collection, cleaning, refinement, some back and forth with staff, getting additional data. Um, you know, looking at the maps, looking at the budget stuff. Um, and it's really it's this is a fun time for our team because all of these initial thoughts start to bubble to the surface of what we think we're seeing, right? Um, and then we go through the analysis of layering all the costs in and doing all the maps. Um, we're going to come back. I think mid Julyish is when we have 16th is when we have council briefing. That council will probably be a little bit of a hybrid of a little bit of this and a little bit of the results. I'll talk with Joselyn and see what we want to to do there, but but end of July, we should have the majority of the analysis and the maps done. um we'll work with staff and and a lot of times we'll we'll see something on the map and staff will be like that doesn't look right or what about that one um and usually it has something to do with um you know the tax data that we have to kind of aggregate a couple parcels or split something up technical technical stuff but we'll go through some back and forth with staff to revise stuff in August get the whole report put together um in September um and then as we're starting to talk about the results of the whole fiscal analysis. We're also going to be working on the the DFIA, that development fiscal impact analysis tool. Um, and just to talk briefly about that, um, what that is is it's a spreadsheet based tool that your team will be able to use for any incoming development. You'll be able to plug some numbers in and show what's the estimated revenue we're going to get, what's the cost that it's going to serve, what's that net. Um, we can add some other

variables in there for housing mix. there there's different variables we can add to it, but the the real purpose of it is to at a um you we can't get it down to the penny. Um but we can use some context info info from the the citywide analysis. We can use some information that developers u provide and especially that life cycle infrastructure cost and the service costs. Um developers are not going to come to you and say they're going to show you all the revenue it's going to bring, right? all the tax base, all that stuff, they're probably going to say the initial infrastructure or initial cost is going to be this and oh, by the way, city, will you help us, you know, with a re with 380 or subsidies or whatever it is. Um, but a lot of those a lot of those analysis that that we look at or asked to do a third party review of do not include the life cycle infrastructure cost. And so we're going to be looking at it specifically from that lens of anything that comes in um you know it needs to pay for itself and then it might need to make up some of the gap to to close the citywide gap um as well. So that's the whole pro the the whole project everything all done should be complete by the by Thanksgiving. Um we may depending on how meetings go and what happens uh over the next few months we might be able to we might be able to finish it in October. um but somewhere in that October to November range. And I would say if if the DFIA tool, I haven't talked with Jocelyn with you about this yet, but if getting that um sooner is really important, we could we probably could start that um end of August, about the time when we're putting the whole report right in the report and all that. We'll have the data and the numbers that we could start to work on the spreadsheet. So um I know that was long. I know it's late. I always like to wrap up with just anybody that's in public service, bless you. Um I could not do it either

working for the city or donated my time on uh what you all are doing. So um if y'all have any questions, if you want to let this sit for a little bit and then something pops in your head later that you have a burning question that you know, you can send it to Jocelyn. That's usually what happens. People go home and they think about this a little bit and then they're like, "Oo, I really want to know about this or that." Um, but we um we're very transparent. We like to stay connected. Um, we like to try to answer as many questions as we can through the process. And hopefully you guys learn a little, we learn a little bit and um, your whole community comes out with a a much clearer picture of where you sit on the fiscal sustainability spectrum when we're done.

Thank you for your presentation. Thank you. Any questions tonight? Anybody think I'm just full? I have one question. for you. Are you going to be reviewing our current ordinances that we have in place and utilizing your data to that or are you going to be suggesting changes to our current ordinances based upon what you talked about today?

We So the baseline analysis is going to be on your current land use and your current zoning. So it's going to it's going to look at everything based on current zoning. Um and then um from that we'll have conversations with staff um about you know usually somewhere towards the end some of the staff will say oh we might want to use this to to look at you know lot size stuff or setbacks whatever it whatever it may um whatever it may be. Um, but no, we we're not specifically going to make recommendations on code changes as part of this, but we have been asked to do that as a follow-on thing, whether it's part of the comp plan or separate code or something like that. But there will be there are going to be some very clear data that comes out of this that you might want to look at something or you I mean you might it might confirm what you have is great. Jocelyn might know.

Any other questions? Gentlemen, anything else? Appreciate your time. Thank you. Well, I I do have a quick question. I have two quick questions. Um, we've the city has capital impact fees by zone. So, will that be something I guess the outcome of the data will influence some of that information and whether those impact fees might change? Um, what? Yeah. So just like just like with variances that may

yeah alter so what we will try to do with cost allocation and revenue is map whatever whatever information we get we'll we'll work we we may have to make some assumptions and different things but we'll we'll try to model current conditions as best as we can with all the money in and all the money out. Um, as far as recommendations, you know, impact fees specifically, you know, water and sewer enterprise funds in general, they they tend to follow this same trend of the the more people you put in an area, the more revenue you're going to generate, the more spread out you do something, the more infrastructure cost you're going to have. So, water and sewer, we've seen this for the last 20 years across the metroplex of anytime we do a study, it says, you know, the city needs this amount to take care of water. And then we look around at our neighbors and say, "Oh, our rates are here, so we need to drop our utility rates to this." Same thing for impact fees are they they get kind of tricky with redevelopment versus green field is easier to estimate. Redevelopment's a little more, you know, of a challenge, but it I mean it sounds

so we end up using this data for a lot of things, whether it's reviewing zoning, whether it's reviewing um tax rates or uh impact fees. Okay. So it's really that you're not recommending anything as you said, you're providing data and

yeah, at the end at the end of our reports, we always have some, you know, some recommendations that really jump out to us. Um so we might talk about um you know the need to focus infill in an area or um you know the the need to look at um more um more detailed uh analysis of like your capital of your street replacement plan or or maintenance plan or something like that. Um, but we don't get to the level of you need to change this zoning or you need to charge that for that thing. Uh, we we let this kind of be the the seed. Yeah.

Data and for those conversations and and the information is only um valuable for how long into the future.

Another really good question. Um I it really depends on kind of how fast your city is growing. And in some fast growth places, we've said updated as frequently as two years. Um I think 3 to 5 years. Um you know, in Irving would make some sense. Um you know, you don't want to do any any more regular than two years because like whatever whatever changes you make are going to need some time to go get built on the ground, right? Um but there are some things with the with the DFIA tool. There's some base numbers in there that staff can update annually. You know, the general fund budget, the population, you know, some of those kind of numbers. So, there will be some things that can annually be updated that will kind of make the the analysis tool a little kind of more current, but the citywide analysis like this is a lot of work to go through and crunch and allocate cost citywide. it I I mean Joselyn was asking me this and I I think I'm going to suggest probably 3 years is when we take you know take a look at the next one. Um but um but yeah it's it's a you know development doesn't especially in it takes a while. So whatever come out comes out of the study you got to do stuff with your CIP or zoning or whatever and then it has to get built and then those changes have to get reflected in property values and service costs. So, you're probably 3 to four years before anything meaningful cycles through. And we've had um several cities reach out to us this year that we did original studies with them in 2017 2018 um and they've reached back now. Um and initially when we started doing this, I wasn't really thinking about doing an update. Um but now that several cities they they want to go back and look and say hey what like a Brownsville or Flugerville we've done a couple for um you know what does it look like after

five you know five six years of changes have come in. Thank you Kevin. Fascinating. Anybody else? Um you mentioned the sales tax were a little bit lower in Irving. um the revenue what they do usually cities do to increase the

it so I think it was like 32% or something like just percentage wise the dollars um you know there's a lot um it was just the 32% I I I was just expecting the sales tax to be a little bit um I was kind of just context of a lot of other places that we've looked at I was thinking this was going to be a little more of like 4040 40% sales tax 40% % property tax. So that's actually a good thing that you have as much in property taxes as you do. Um the more well depending on what happens in Austin. Um the more you have in property tax, the more fiscally financially strong you are. The places that have 20% of their general fund from property tax are um not very resilient. They're very dependent on sales tax and sales tax could go poof quickly. So, um, so yeah, I when we'll we'll know a little bit more when we see kind of where that sales tax is coming from and, um, there may be opportunities to, you know, to find some ways to do the what I call the double boost where you can change some development where you're boosting property tax and sales tax together with some infill, you know, mixed use um, redevelopment kind of um, projects.

Fascinating. Thank you. Excellent. Thank you all very Great presentation.

Thanks, Kevin. Okay, so uh moving on to our second item, we have um our famous Troy who reads in color, I think. Oh man, look at that. There we go. You're losing your audience.

What? You're losing your audience. Let them talk. Yeah. All right. Okay. I'm sorry. Okay. Good evening. Go ahead. I'm not Please start. Thank you, Troy. Sorry.

No problem. Good evening. My name is Troy Wyn of planning and zoning comm uh department and uh this evening we've got some proposed future land use changes to make to our our future land use map. Um if you'd like I can go through the the land use categories or we can go straight into the proposals. Excellent. Adam says let's do it. That's good. That's what I was hoping you would say. We're we're going to follow his lead today.

All right. Uh right here we've got some property up by um by Cersian just north of University of Dallas. Uh currently the future land use map indicates urban district and open space. We'd like to bring those both into public semi-public because they will not be developed as urban district or open space. So just clean up this area here is the proposal. All right. Then over here at Shady Grove Troy, hang on a second. Do Do we want to just say yay nay? Any questions as he goes along. That works.

Okay. So, if you have a question, pop up, please. Thank you.

All right. Over here at Loop 12 and Shady Grove, just east of Loop 12, we have this area here that is currently designated for regional commercial and for heavy industry. And why is that there? Okay. Um, and regional commercial is supposed to be big boxes that attract retail sales from across the region, but this is a little tucked away. So, we'd like to bring the most of this into uh into our our manufacturing warehouse district and also scale down this industrial here to to also be the uh the manufacturing warehouse. And also note that this uh this apartment complex here, go ahead and mark that for preservation. And we we are not proposing any zoning changes. These here are are our future land use designation changes which is to guide any future discussion about changes in the land use in an area. It doesn't force it. It just guides the conversation later on in the future.

So let let me ask this a question because so say for example that area along um the old Texas stadium gets developed. Mhm. And then we're having down the street right we're having manufacturing and warehouse in that area. Yeah. I'm just wondering if that's the the right thing to do by changing it from where it's regional commercial. Now,

the uh the Texas Stadium area is is up here. And between before you get down to this residential area, you've got another place that's already heavy industry. And we'll be discussing that area a little bit later. Okay. Um and this here's just way down here. And we're looking to clean up this area here that's already also mostly manufacturing and warehouse at this point in time. Is that over by where Fredo Lelay is at? And uh Fredo Lelay is right about here. Okay. Stadium's up off the screen. Yeah.

I just had a question. Is that mid density residential? That's what's there now. So you're just protecting it. Yeah. This is an existing apartment apartment complex. It's already got a lot of people living there. Okay. But currently is zoned as regional commercial. No, currently the future land use designation says if you b if you bulldoze this this apartment complex, make it like a a Home Depot or something like that. So, if you bulldoze it, why do you want to build back mid-density residential in the middle of manufacturing? Uh, we'd like to never be bulldozed, actually. Huh? We'd like to not be bulldozed because we need the housing.

So, we're saying please keep it. Keep it. And if you knock it over, build back better, right? You know, but let's not let's not eliminate the housing stock when we're in a short supply of housing.

And these are also 20 25 year plans. So these aren't forever plans. And that's why we're constantly looking at looking at these every year. So you know, in 20 or 25 years, do we think this is still going to be a multif family complex? That those are kind of questions that we go through each time. And April, I just wanted to comment on yours. You're going to see here a little bit later kind of the area. This this is of course on the east side of 12 on the west side of 12 on Irving Boulevard. As we go into downtown, we are starting to relook at that area to be more complimentary to downtown and kind of try to change that development pattern ideally long term. So we are thinking about kind of not just the stadium site but also downtown and heritage and how we can maybe help shape that a little bit different.

So I when I see current regional commercial and then we the proposal is to change to manufacturing warehouse I immediately think about you know the all the warehouses that's going up off of 161. Mhm. And so that's why I'm saying we and we've got an apartment complex that's already in that area. And I don't see how those complement that area right now. All of this is warehouse. Okay. So which p Okay. So

yeah, all all this is warehouse. So the the future land use plan is currently saying all these warehouses in here when you get the chance make it regional commercial. And so there's there's a couple of single family lots in here that that have been cut off, but the rest of this is mostly warehouses mixed in and we'd like to say, well, let's not change that. Let's keep it warehousing and let's protect that, okay? And let's scale down this

these warehouses here that are marked for industrial and say they should not be any more than than the warehouses that they are. So maybe I'm confused by the colors and maybe you need to to go over that because it says change. So current is regional, commercial, industrial. The bullet points that you have there. Yeah. Yeah. Regional, commercial, and industrial. That's here and here. Okay. But then your proposal is to change to manufacturing warehouse. Yeah. And because that apartment complex is there, keep the mid density residential. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

And my thought is even if I live in mid density residential, do I want to manufactur in a warehouse where I live? Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Yeah.

And we also as as we look at these, I just wanted to add that this also provides these are very small lots, very small businesses. So we are we want to preserve the ability for people to have their small businesses here. And you know, because we will talk to people occasionally, it's like, well, I just need an acre. I just need a half acre. Where can I go? And so we see this as creating a safe place, for lack of a better word, for some of those small businesses to go and to grow hopefully and stay in Irving. But wouldn't that be regional commercial versus manufacturing work?

So regional commercial or any commercial is very is public oriented. You and I can go there. It's just like auto repair or something. You and I can go there. This is more um you know maybe small um cottage type maybe landscaping companies places that are not public oriented and then when you see the manufacturing warehouse the intention there is that every all the activities happen inside. So that's one reason we took we we don't always like industrial except in certain places because industrial could be a little heavier maybe a little bit outdoor where the manufacturing warehouse the intention is that the activities occur inside. There may be some storage outside but that the activities occur inside the building.

Okay, I get that. And again, maybe I'm I'm mixing things here, but if I'm in a mid density regional, I mean mid density residential, why would I want to have the manufacturing warehouse in that same area for for the even if they're doing the the work inside? And I'm just from a visual perspective, and I'll just call out 161. There's a huge warehouse that's being built right now. There's a lot of them. Yes. Yeah. But right on the other side is a single family home, you know, community.

Mhm. Well, and we think too, you know, in some of these who was there first, you know, who's who's the fish out of water here and and the the both the industrial I think the industrial was there probably before it was incorporated in the city of Irving in this area in general. Um, and and the the multif family's been there for a while, too. So, they they've been working together for many decades. And so here we're just saying that if we're going to have some of the small lot manufacturing opportunities, this would be appropriate for that and get rid of the industrial. Well, take take it down a notch. Yeah.

Yeah. The the site that's designated industrial is warehousing and we like to say let's not make it any more than warehousing. So let's take take it down to the warehousing. I guess your colors don't match that because you're the the proposed change is expanding the purple, not limiting it.

This here is marked for for for industry. We'd like to scale it down to to to the warehousing. And this area here that's marked for for retail to attract people from all over the metroplex. We're saying that since it's warehousing and it's not got the quick access on the freeway, let's let's keep it let's keep it the uh the warehousing that it is. So, make it actually you're coloring it warehousing where before it was Yeah. Yeah. Before we were we were encouraging a change. Now we're encouraging it to stay what it is and make it what it is. The color make it.

Yeah. I I still don't. Yeah, but I think I No, no. I said the same thing. I kind of feel like the mid-density residential is a is the fish out of water there. If y'all would like us to take that out, we can. I mean, we're here for your input, feedback, guidance. Yeah. Correct me if I'm wrong. We're doing the same thing between Pioneer and the railroad tracks. We're just taking an area that we thought would change or do something and we're just putting it back to what it is now. Correct. Pretty much.

Again, it's just future land use. So, the what we're doing in Heritage is actually a full reszoning. Yeah. To where we're changing the allowed use legally by right. What we're doing here is just changing what we think this area will probably be in the next 20 to 25 years and what's appropriate here. Yeah. But it's also encouraging sort of development cuz these little shops as they go out, it's going to be hard for them to meet the regional commercial zoning and they'll still be able to meet the warehouse zoning fairly fairly easy to keep, you know, keep other small businesses come in. Right. Right. If they request a zoning change, it will need to comply with the the manufacturing warehouse if this were approved.

And that to be regional commercial, those are larger scale. Therefore, it' be a lot of assembling assembling of of properties that's going to have to happen, which is quite difficult because people are different stages of their business life. Um, so we just we thought for several reasons, the main one being the scale of the businesses there and basically keeping the apartment complex the way it is now, it sort of gives them a right if something was to happen for them to rebuild without having to go through a bunch of problems or issues.

Yeah. Unless it's completely inappropriate, we that's kind of been our policy to try to preserve the multif family that's here. You know, we're not adding multif family, but if it's there, we want to at least respect what it is. Okay.

So, I'm I'm guessing we're okay with the mid-density residential and city council will be weighing in as well, right? Yeah, and you will too. I mean, this will be coming back to you. This is just your first presentation. So, the the steps would be, you know, if you have us, we want things you want us to change. This is not your last time to see this, okay? There will have to come through the formal recommendation process where it will be on your agenda and you'll you'll make a recommendation on all of them or them individually. If you want us to come back with something, we can do that. So, this is just your first flush.

All right. Maybe Troy you could um highlight a few other similar cases where we are keeping the mid density residential in the in the future if it's not too much trouble so we have a comparison. Okay. All right. This is the next area we're looking at is at Belt Line and Shady Grove right here. The future land use plan indicates that we'd like to bring regional commercial back in here and also across the top of uh the graph farms development and that this mobile home park should all go to traditional neighborhood. What we'd like to do is scale this down to local commercial to serve the the nearby area instead of track instead of trying to attract people from across the the region. uh would like to bring this to local commercial once again to to serve Irving residents as opposed to trying to draw people up belt line and on Shady Grove. We'd like to convert would like to uh let the mobile home park go to compact neighborhood uh both of the mobile home parks to reflect what they are. And also I've got a little single family home that needs to be marked single family. So,

I thought this one made complete sense.

All right. Up here is just south of the Texas Stadium site. All right. We've got this area designated for regional commercial. Regional commercial and a piece of land that Tex dot took and we hope to one day get back in the uh in the market. and we'd like to designate that as to manufacturing warehouse to kind of scale it down from the heavy industry to the south. Uh we don't see it being a great spot for u retail sales given how how tricky it is to navigate that area with the current placement of street exits. So you're looking at the Yeah, this is a stadium site. Okay.

This is just south of it. Just out of curiosity, why is that? Why was the one place undesated on the left? Uh text dot uh wiped out that parcel when they took the property for the 183 expansion. Would like to start showing it again on our maps so that if it ever comes back into play, we've got a designation ready to go. Um, we've got another case like that that I think we took care of last last year. Jocelyn, so I'm sorry, Troy, can you go back?

So, just one question on that. I mean, I know nothing has been determined on what's going to actually go on that site, but there's, you know, grandiose ideas about something really nice going there. So does it make sense to have warehouse across from that?

It's a it's that balance between kind of reality and function and you know what what the dream could be. It's it's people think that it's great to be at an intersection, but it's actually extremely difficult. The access is very hard to get to. Um and and so if you put some type of, you know, entertainment here or even a hotel or something, it'd be very difficult for someone to get across 183 unless there's a bridge or a tunnel or something. That's not going to happen. So it really kind of has to stand alone. And being that manufacturing warehouse, it's again that indoor use. So yes, they're larger buildings, but they're they're they're not as they don't have the outdoor activity. um they're usually I don't want to use the word attractive per se, but they can be landscaped. They can they can look good on the outside. So, it kind of gives that buffer between what the the darker purple is that allows that heavier industrial and gives that buffer to 183 gives that buffer to the stadium site. So, it's it's a hard site. We kind of went back and forth between commercial and and industrial, but that's why he kind of explained it as a buffer because the reality of commercial being here when there's all these other options we thought is is pretty low.

Sorry. Um going back or unless it's the same, but isn't that residences on the on the right? Um yes, right there. Yeah, there's a mobile home park right here inside the industrial. Mhm. So, we aren't proposing to to change that to we we aren't proposing to protect that. you are proposing to put not at this time.

Uh since the 50s this entire section has been encouraged to go industrial by city hall and so we're not stepping away from that at this time. Isn't this area right by our data center that we just approved? I was about to say just across the street from the manufactured home is where we had a recently approved conditional use permit for a data center. So the data center will be to the right. Guess to the east. Right. Yeah. Over here. Right. Right there. Yeah. All of that. It won't be the area in the dark. That's still PUD 6, but the where the buildings are south of that is where they would be. Right. Right. Right. Okay.

They still have those I think 13 acres or something like that. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. All right. This here is off of a airport freeway near William Brewster. This here's a church. Uh it's right now the future land use designation is that if that is for traditional neighborhood so if the church ever goes down, somebody would try to squeeze in R six R75 lots. We'd like to take that to compact neighborhood so you could actually redevelop it for residential cuz uh the R six R75 lot size will not work in this area at all. So, you need to look at something different.

Why doesn't it work? Uh the the lot size it works right next to it. It looks like Yeah. You can't punch a road through and serve that. So, so you need to go with a road through from the south. From the south. Yeah. You mean like because it won't it it's not wide enough city street. If you punch a road through, you're not going to have enough space for the houses to go either side. Well, I'm just looking at the width compar directly to the right. There's a a Green Ks Drive. It's about the same width. So, Yep. as far as, you know, the houses on each side of that street and that's about the same width as this parcel.

Right. Right. So, so you would have enough room for uh a house on each side or for a house on one side or or you'd have to to get exceptions to to to try to squeeze in smaller the more compact. I I forget now what the compact neighborhood. What's the how much what's the density difference? Uh it's let me go up here. you're looking at eight eight to to 20 units per acre as opposed to four to seven. Okay.

So, we'd like to be able to to to develop it without having to do the site plans to to shrink the the single family lots if it ever comes on the market, ever gets redeveloped. And this is a good example of what we were talking about just a second ago with the fiscal analysis and right the infill and the costs of infrastructure and all that

right but and I didn't really see the point in getting into it because he has a lot of analysis left to do but it seemed like the data he was giving is based on valuation at the time it's constructed and that is one data point but it's not really useful for what is what are values going to do 20 30 years down the with one asset class versus another. I'd be more interested to know that if we're really looking at what's sustainable, not really as interested in, you know, what what it is is at the onset. I'm interested in how those asset classes, how the valuation changes over time. And I don't know the data, but I just kind of assume that a lot of these traditional neighborhoods see a uh a better percentage rise in value, but I I don't know if that's true or not.

Question I got for you. If we converted that over to R six or R seven uh or we did compact neighborhood, which one's going what's the difference in the density that we're looking at?

It it depends on exactly what goes in the uh the traditional neighborhood is 4 to seven units per acre. The compact is 8 to 20 units per acre. Okay. So, okay. All right. Uh, this here's a little piece of land on 183 at Windgrren where uh Tex dot clipped a bunch of parcels. Uh, we had to take down the houses. We like to mark it as open space because it's really too small to do anything else with and the city owns it. So, over here on Okconor. Uh a few years back, city took uh took some properties up and down the street to to expand some rideway and where we had to bulldoze the houses uh to expand the rideway. We put in a a green belt. So, we'd like to go ahead and mark that as open space.

But open space for what? because it doesn't there's a linear park that we've built. Oh, the park. Okay. So, right now that's a bike trail there and we like to stay a bike trail since we put the money into it. Uh Troy, just a small typo on that last bullet on the lefth hand side. I think you mean ex expansion of OKConor there. Yeah, you're right. That's a little to fix up before council sees it.

I've always got to have at least one typo for presentation. Usually I spot it the minute I I put it up in front of council. So I appreciate you catching it before that. All right. Okay. Over here off of uh 183 and William Brewster. Again, this here's across the street from the other site. Uh we've got this uh these apartment complexes here. Spanish Haven Plymouth. Um uh let's see that. There's a church right there. Spanish Haven here. Uh we just had a a zoning case here as well. Uh we'd like to go ahead and mark these this area here as suitable for mid- density residential to try to keep that housing stock in place. And we've got this site here that's uh a a u self-s storage mini warehouses plus some regional commercial and some office. We'd like to go ahead and mark that entire area for regional commercial which is suitable for many warehouses. just kind of protect what's existing there and uh tie it in, lock it down. So,

I go back to the same thing here. You got regional commercial stuck in the middle of mid-density residential. Yeah. Uh don't want to make the whole thing mid-density residential. We might like to, but we can't politically get away with it. Well, and it's a it's zoned and built for a mini warehouse. So again, in 20 or 25 years, is that going to be demoed and built as multif family? Highly likely it will not be. The mini warehouse will probably be there. So that that's why it looks a little out of place, but that's why there was this piece of regional commercial because that is what is there and probably will be because the investment's been made. Is is there something there right now? Yes, it's a mini warehouse.

Yeah, it's mini warehouse. Mini warehouse in the back and then commercial in the front. Yep. Okay. I'm trying to remember where that's at on 183. So that's William Brewster. Yeah, William Brewster 183. It's uh let's see what other It's not too far from the the mall is just a little bit over this way. It's not that far from the mall. Yeah. And then uh I think Story's over here. Is it before the mall if I'm going west or is it if you're going east it's it's after the mall. Okay. It's where those apartments are at and somebody's redeveloping one of those apartment complexes.

Yeah. Yeah. There's a an LHTC program that project that just got approved over here. Yeah. Yeah. So, so we're four story I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're they're rebuilding same number of units, but it's going to be a newer refreshed version Yeah. of the property. And then all the auto dealerships are over there. Yeah. Yep. Okay. Um sorry, going back to the sorry to the previous one. The one that was in 183 and Wingren. 183 and Wingren. That one.

Okay. Okay. I think it is that one. Yes. The red one right there to the right. Yes. What's that zone for? Uh what's it zoned for? I'm not sure. So, you're about to see a zoning case for that coming up soon. So, it's actually zoned for senior independent living facility, nursing facility, and assisted living. So, they have plans for it, and we're preparing it now. So, you're going to see it in June for a senior independent living community. And so, and there's also going to be a future land used uh request tied with that for multif family because it's going to be a condo. And so, you're going to see that here pretty quick.

I was about to suggest something with that cuz there is just residential right there to the north and to the west. And uh so yeah, I mean something more. Yeah, it's we're working on something now, right? Where they came they came before. Yeah, they had come. It was for an industrial building. There were to be like a warehouse building. I remember you know this was proposed to be an industrial well no industrial but someone did try to do industrial here and it it's yeah it was it was like a a light industrial warehouse and that was not supported. But then didn't the the um I thought the owner of that land that was going to develop that condos for seniors,

the luxury ones that you said that's not affordable, right? It's not affordable. That that's basically the proposal that you're going to see next month. So they're changing what they they prop they changed it a little bit. Mhm. Were they able to ever pick up the property in the front that was in the middle? No, in the very front that from the Yeah. Yeah. It was it was a separate lot. I Yeah. Yeah. There was like a a lot that really was kind of weird little cutout here. Yeah. Yeah. That little thing. I don't think Oh, yeah. Cuz it had an antenna on it. Yeah. And they were Yeah. There was an access challenge and Yeah. We'll we'll check that to make sure that that's clean. Yeah.

Okay. It's not included on there because that was that was a big deal.

Okay, this here is Beltline Road uh heading north from Confl, uh I forget what that is. like uh the Yeah. Yeah. Willow Creek. Um and we we've got the the future land use plan currently designates this area here for local commercial. And then it has uh this row of warehousing marked for traditional neighborhood and this group of warehousing marked for regional commercial and this park marked for regional commercial. And what we'd like to do is since we're right there, 183 is right about here. We'd like to mark this local commercial area as regional commercial to try to draw on some of the business from outside. Just bring it all down to to connect to this other regional commercial area. Would like to protect the single family houses that have been swept up in that commercial designation. Switch them back to traditional neighborhood. would like to switch this strip of warehousing to regional commercial because it backs up to uh the homes. So, we don't really see homes taking over and facing facing other warehouses. We'll just protect the uh the little small uh self- storage units and small businesses that are there by bringing them into the original commercial designation. uh this area that's full of uh warehousing. We'd like to go ahead and mark as manufacturing warehouse because it's off of the the beltline road. So, it's not going to get the the retail traffic. It's it's in a step. And we'd like to go ahead and make sure that West Irving Aquatic Center is marked as a park instead of commercial site.

Okay. Yeah, I'm good. I'm good with it. Everybody else? Okay.

Okay. Over here on Perry Street, which is just uh just east of downtown and the Heritage uh this here's uh Nursery Road. Yep. Nursery Road and Perry Street. We've got an area that's designated for uh local commercial and business office and also uh some neighborhood. Uh this here is the cemetery. Would like to go and mark the cemetery area as public, semi-public. Uh this area here is marked as a local commercial and office. would like to mark that for our mixed use uh community village to tie into what we would like to do up here with the um North Nursery corridor neighborhood, the the North Nursery Neighborhood Association and also to better connect to the future growth in Heritage and this area here that's currently designated for a business office which is supposed to be multi-story office complexes. We'd like to scale it down to local commercial to better reflect what's appropriate for that scale. Given that the uh the single family neighborhood right next door in the downtown area, we don't see large office buildings constructed in downtown anytime soon.

Why are we keeping that one single lot there at the cemetery, the back of the cemetery? Uh because that's a house. The rest of this is cemetery owned. So, as long as that guy is not going to sell to the cemetery, we're going to mark his house at the house. So, the um where it was as traditional neighborhood in the past, which you're now marking cemear the cemetery hasn't. Okay. Cemetery's already bought those. So, we're just going to go and bring those in.

Yeah. So, okay. over here is at uh loop 12 between uh 356 and the railroad. We've got a bunch of little areas that are marked for a business office. Uh once again, we don't see large office buildings being placed there. So, we'd like to bring that into regional commercial to take advantage of that that freeway access down here and also to stretch along 356. just kind of swap it to something that's a little bit more more likely given the location. All right, this here is a a tricky little cleanup at O' Conor and Garwheer back in uh back in the uh about 9798 2000 right in there. We, the city of Irving, started approving a lot of little town homes and zero lot line developments in this uh in what was a single family neighborhood uh with with huge lots. And we'd like to go ahead and protect those areas that were transformed and keep those as uh as compact neighborhood like like they were built as and mid-density residential instead of instead of encouraging roll back. So, we'd like to pres preserve the the the increased housing density in the on the places that we uh we've made that trans transition in the past. And then there's also a couple of lots that belong to the school district that would like to bring into public semi-public. Okay. And that there's the zoning for the

sites where you can see that where we've switched a lot of zoning up to R35, RZLA, and RTH. Then up here on Royal Lane, Rich Point, we've got a uh an office complex that was that was marked traditional neighborhood. Would like to mark that to business office. Uh there's some uh utility lines marked business office. Would like to mark that as public semi-public. And this here, I believe that there's a a waste water pump

wastewater pump station. So, city- owned property would like to mark as public city semi public and get these areas cleaned up. And those are the changes that we're bringing forth this year for consideration. So, if you have any questions, anything you'd like to go back to. Okay.

And if y'all again, if you if you because often we will find these because we're working on a case and we're kind of looking the area and we're say that doesn't that doesn't look right. So, I'll ask Troy to put it on the list. If y'all see something that you want us to to look at or or just reconsider or bring to the commission, please feel free to give us a screenshot and we'll put it on the list and put it up for review because that's that's the way a lot of these come up is we just kind of stumble over them going that just doesn't look right. So, please feel free to be a partner with us in that. Yeah, our zoning team's always seeing something going why is that there? And uh

somebody has some really good eyes and really thinks about these things when they look at them. It's very fine detail. Okay. So that takes us to the end of tonight's quarterly workshop. Um our next quarterly meeting um is August. I wanted to see um based on the survey that Troy and Jocelyn did for us earlier this year um if you all would like to have the data centers on that. And then I was thinking maybe Mark Wiggins could come in. He's our new legislative affairs fellow. There is some um potential legislation being proposed next year relating to um shaping data center futures. So, I thought that he might be able to talk about SB8 as well as any other legislative updates that um might be on the table for the city of Irving to discuss with our legislature down in Austin. Does that sound like a good topic? Um,

I I think I think so. Yeah. No, that sounds good to me. Do we want to have it earlier than August? I mean, I I get questions every day from somebody about data centers, and I understand there might be another one coming down the pike. So, do we want to have this earlier than August? Other people may know, but I don't know of another one coming down. But I only know what I need to know. Yeah.

So, um, yeah, it's I mean, we need some time to to put it together and just to see because a lot of the the discussion points, especially at this at the state level, are much bigger than us. It's the larger water supply. It's how do you connect to electric? Is you do you do you connect to the electric system or do you generate your own? If you do generate your own, then who who regulates that? That is so much bigger than Irving. You know, our ours is always just a land use discussion. Is this an appropriate place for this conditional use permit? We want to know how all those other things operate, but they are they're not within our control. So, I think it's good to be educated on that, but but I I want to make sure that we understand kind of what our lane is of what we can control and what we can't control.

Is there I agree I agree with you. There are certain things we we we can't control, but um I can tell you the electricity, the water, whenever somebody hears there's a data center, that's one of the the big concerns. So, um no, understanding that I think will help us when we're making our decisions. Is there a way as us as a city can put together a resolution to send to uh like other counties have done uh to send to the legislators and our senators etc. I think that'd be a good question for Mark.

Yeah.

To see, you know, if there been discussions or process or anything like that. and and and I heard y'all discussing earlier that urban cities and counties are being approached very differently than the rural ones because we do have zoning, we do have land use control where in Texas they don't and that's one reason, one of many reasons, you know, the expansive land is a is a huge reason. Um but the rural counties are definitely getting targeted significantly more than some of the urban the urban cities and counties. We would get it more because of our proximity because of the location and the latency and and just needing to be near the customers where the the bigger data center campuses are more just plain production. Um so it's there's different uses but we're getting different pressures. They're definitely getting it harder than we are. Well, and I think that legislature, they intend to determine at a state level um how economic development and what tax incentives they're giving to these data centers. That's very key. So, I think Mark would be an excellent choice as a complement to just educating us. Okay. So, we'll keep it in August. Those will be the two topics. Mark and data centers. Mark will be broader than just data centers, but um still it's a good time to start talking about legislative updates for next winter and we are adjourned. If there's no other questions, we are adjourned at 7:49. Thank you all for staying tonight. I just want to give y'all a heads up. We do have a heavy load in June. So, wear comfortable shoes and bring a fuzzy blanket and yeah, we don't we don't know. We don't know what happened, but it's we've got about 14 cases. 14 15 cases. Yeah.

The last meeting everything got deferred. Yeah. Yeah. Well, a lot of them are new. We don't know why. You know, we It's We got this wave. I think I think Ken was out there holding everybody back and then when he left they're like, "Okay, it's free now." Send out an email. Yeah. Yeah. You only have 30 days.