Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

All right, you want to give us a summary?

Yeah, we'll go for it. And if it's capable, do you have questions? That's what happens. So this is for 240 West 10th Street. It is an application for a freestanding deck that's partially on the east side of the house and partially behind the house. The deck is proposed to be approximately one step up from grade. And then the applicant wants to use treks composite decking. And I had asked that we have a sample of the product or a specific product because Trex is just a brand. It could be any type of fluid. of their flooring, so you could be comfortable with that, you could not be comfortable with that, we can look at... Do we have a, have we approved Trex before? Yeah, so Trex has been approved before when it's been these low profile...

Okay, do we have the option, like, do you have a list of previously approved Trex products?

No.

No, okay.

No, and we typically avoid doing that because of the case by case thing. The other thing to note is, so this is the house. The deck is proposed to be over on this back corner, right here. And then the applicant has also included a four foot white picket fence to go in front of it. Their idea was to block the view of the deck. I've also asked for clarification on that fence. since we didn't receive any materials or anything about that.

Do we do fences?

So I typically do fences, but because this was included in this application for you guys. Yeah, so it's an 8 by 12 portion off to the side here, 10 by 10 to the back. This was the drawing that was submitted and then I actually went over it so we could see it a little bit better for what's What's proposed? You can kind of see that right there.

So they think they can get away with one step on that deck?

So it's currently a four-step entry into the house and they haven't indicated any other steps going up to the door. I know you said it's a 30-inch.

From the ground. It's less than 30 inches. So they don't need a handrail, but I still think they need a step because your max step is 70.

It looks like the grade goes down there.

Are they incorporating the steps into the deck or just building off it this way? What was the drawing again?

The drawing doesn't include this. The drawing is drawn over top of the steps. So you can see.

So I think I'm getting clarification on that.

Yeah. It looks like the ground does slope down where the steps are. Maybe it's higher where the trash can is.

We can look. So this is a photo from our file, which looks like it's actually also the photo that was used for that. Anyways. There's maybe a little bit of a grid change, but nothing drastic. Nothing drastic. Yeah.

I think I'd also be curious as to what's happening with that downspout that's currently at the corner.

I think the deck's coming straight out from the corner. But I think it wraps around.

It wraps around.

Oh, does it?

I mean, they could just have it hole through the deck.

Yeah, but then you're going to dump water underneath your deck.

That's their choice, though. Well, it already extends out. Maybe they're going to extend it. I mean, I could see easy ways to... Take care of that.

Maintain if it gets clogged.

It's going to stress out the tree, probably.

I was also going to say, is there going to be any impact to that tree on the side? With the neck? No. I mean, how often are they going to encroach on it?

It will reduce its absorption.

I guess I'm just looking at things that are going to change the design from what's currently proposed to what might actually get constructed.

Eight feet out from the side of the house.

Yeah.

That gives them a few feet to the trunk.

I mean, technically the tree isn't under your guys' purview, but I do understand what you're saying, where if that hasn't been taken into account, is that going to affect the design?

I mean, there'll be a couple posts that they'll impact the roots, but yeah. That's not too bad.

It's going to be a shady deck. That's a nice feature. At least part of it will be shady. So I'm hearing... needing clarification on how this entrance is going to be treated with steps or not with steps or what's the height of this going to be? What's happening to the downspout? And then are you interested in sort of more information on the materials? Yeah. Yeah, go ahead.

And also, I don't know if you're going to review the fence or if we are going to review the fence, but I would like more information on that.

Yeah, it's included in this, so.

I do also have one comment for them to consider. Mm-hmm. That white picket fence, if they could, and I'm, open to discussion, but they currently have that AC unit sitting right in front of where their proposed deck, if they also would like to cover their AC unit as well and hide that. I know technically the AC unit's there before, but it's right there to the corner of those stairs, so I don't know if they want to also cover the AC unit with the picket fence.

I feel like before when we've talked about treks, we've talked about doing a picture frame molding around the deck.

Sometimes we have, sometimes we haven't.

Depending on what the cross-section of the track looks like, right?

Yeah, a way to finish the edge of it. I can make fun of you.

I can make fun of you. Yeah, sorry.

And there have been more tracks branded products that have come out more recently than when it was first being proposed. That's why I was just curious. I was like, are we using, like, what are, What are you using? And this individual wasn't sure. All right.

Those would be my only comments. I don't know if anyone has any more.

I think that covered it really well. I don't know if I have enough information to approve something. Agreed. Tabling it, perhaps?

Yeah, so I wrote down your guys' comments. If you're interested in tabling, then the applicant will have the opportunity to come back and answer these questions. If you were to deny, they would have to resubmit in six months.

We should be nice.

We should be nice, table. Because we don't want to push it all off on you either with conditions for approval from staff. I think it would be nice if they come visit.

I agree. With that all said, I move to table it. I second.

Those in favor? Aye. Those opposed? Chair votes aye.

Nailed it.

You're not going to make fun of me?

No. My phone did.

Your phone is going to make fun of me. OK. Next one. We also are lacking a person. Certificate of Appropriateness 12 West 12th Street.

The garage.

Yeah. This is Gunner. 12 West 12th Street. I don't know. Audrey and Kim, you might have been here the first time we reviewed this garage. It's been several years now. So if it seems familiar, that's why. I'm going to do the same thing. I will represent that application the best I can. If it needs to be tabled, we'll table it. If it doesn't, we won't. But there are also questions on this one to answer. This is 12 West 12th Street, which is one of the homes that faces Centennial Park right over here. If you went to go check it out, you would have seen that there's already a foundation in place for this garage. An ADU was reviewed by the HDC back in 2022. It was approved by the HDC. However, an ADU in this location is not allowed by zoning. So the owner wasn't allowed to build an ADU. It's taken a few years, but he has come back with just a garage. that looks just like the ADU that was previously approved.

As close as I live to this one, I didn't get a chance, I missed it in my drive-bys today. I didn't loop back. Is this, which one is it?

It's the yellow house.

The yellow house. Okay. This is one that doesn't have siding on the east side.

Correct. Yep.

Half a part of the east side. Yes. I'm familiar with that.

They should put some siding on. Yeah. How long is it without siding?

Since we bought our house on 12th Street.

Which is how long?

We've owned it four years.

Okay. So that's been noted. But not as part of this application right now. The garage that's proposed... We'll have a steep pitched roof. I don't know the exact rise over run, but it's close to a 12-12. It's very similar to what's on the house. Cedar lap siding, so true wood siding with a three inch reveal. Cedar shingles in the gable. It is proposed to use PVC or vinyl trim, but it also is going to have corner boards and the freeze board just out of that material. There are windows up in the gables. Anderson A series, which is a wood interior fiberglass exterior is proposed. And then Gunner also provided two garage door options, both of which have been previously approved up for other projects. One is a flush panel with no windows and one is a recess panel with no windows. There's also several, three, I think, man doors or pedestrian doors, service doors on the garage. All of those doors are proposed to be the same door that's on the back of the main house, which was approved by the HDC in 2018. That's a fiberglass ThermaTru sort of craftsman style door. So it's the long two recessed panels with a square clear glass window at the top. Those are the details. The questions I had... were about the height of the garage because it's the same drawings as when it was proposed to be an adu there is a chance it's too tall and the height isn't included on the drawings so that's more of a zoning question than a you guys question but similar to your tree question if it changes what the garage needs to look like it's a question to ask now um so We allow a maximum of 20 feet, which is measured as the mean, so the middle between the peak and the eave. And the applicant couldn't confirm what that dimension was. He thought it was perhaps too tall. We don't know. Let me show you.

Back to your comment. It is a zoning concern because our garage, when we built it too, was above height and I had to get that cleared with zoning before I could come here. So has he done that? Have they gone to the zoning with any of this?

No. No, because he can't confirm the height of the roof.

Oh, because he can't confirm.

Yeah. So we don't know what it is. So we don't know if he's in line with the rules or not in line with the rules. So Tricia, currently our zoning administrator, is here tonight to witness this discussion. Welcome, Tricia. Yeah. And knows a lot about this project also. So we were hoping to get some answers tonight. This is the house in question. Here's the driveway. Here's the foundation. Yep, yep. That's all that's there now. Oh, you guys can see this better than I can. It's a nice looking garage. Yeah, this is the garage. It's simple but complimentary to the home. You can see the doors.

That garage is going to fit on that pad. I think it's going to fit. There's like the old foundation still there.

This is the new foundation for the garage that was approved three years ago.

Oh.

That he's going to be building on top of.

What's those like raised concrete pads right there? You see those? Those like little L's?

Yeah, that's the ledge, like the sill.

It's the sill that he's going to build on top of.

Yeah.

Yeah. So it's already kind of like the outline of what the garage is. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

So there was an old structure here that was approved for demolition by you guys. several years ago, and that was eventually demolished. He had an approved garage. He put the foundation in, but the garage, he did that before the garage cleared zoning approval, which then it didn't clear zoning approval, and the project's been stalled since then.

Can I ask about the zoning? Yeah. We had an ADU on the agenda a few months ago.

Yeah.

And I think we approved it. Yes. Was that a different zone? It was.

So this is in the Hope Overlay District, which is due to its proximity to Hope College. So that is the east side from River Avenue over. So there are different zoning density requirements or restrictions to help with overpopulation, overcrowding in the college neighborhoods. And so ADUs are restricted. And that was, yeah, that's why this is a special case. Here's that flush garage door, recess panel garage door. What are you guys thinking? Any questions?

Well, there are so many.

Yeah.

It might as well get tabled. I agree. I concur.

I guess some things to, I have some questions on to prepare them, if they're going to have gutters. Okay. If they're, I think they had corbels in one of their renderings, did they?

I don't know.

They had them called out, but I don't know what they look like if you go back to their actual 2D drawing.

This one?

Yeah, I think on the front. Oh, you're right. They had corbels called out, but no actual elements.

Hmm.

So I wanted to know what they were thinking on that.

Okay.

And then the eaves.

If the trim is going to match the house.

Yep, because I was also going to ask about the eaves as well, if those are going to match the house being closed or exposed. And then they said sheater shingles and the gables, which is not what's on the main house, I don't believe.

So one thing I'll clarify, the main house is vinyl siding. It is. This is being composed with wood siding. Assuming that said siding project that has been underway on the back of the home for a while, there is an intention, it's my understanding, that eventually the original siding would be restored. So the vinyl would be removed, the original would be restored. And so the garage is being built to match the original, not the existing. Just like everything we do has to be approved, assuming that's not going to happen. But that's why you're seeing slightly different materials and actually a nicer material on the garage.

So the garage is going to be classier looking than the house. Yeah.

So if you ever are in a place where you can see the back side of the house, the vinyl siding is removed. You can see the original cedar shingles and the gables and the wood clapboard on the back. And then also missing siding. But it gives you a peek at what's underneath. Gotcha.

Okay, cool. Yeah. That's good. And I mean, for the garage door.

Oh, sorry. Go ahead. You said it was Anderson series. It looks like sliding.

This is shown as a casement in the front. And then I think it's also a casement.

Is that what they have in the house?

I think the house might have original wood. I'm not sure. They also might have replacement just because there's vinyl siding on the home. I don't know.

That might be one of my questions, too, is what function are the windows on the house versus the function of these?

I don't know, again, because it's an accessory building. How integral that is, you're still welcome to ask that question. Casement windows aren't historic. in nature, typically?

I tried to increase the size of the photograph of the house, and I didn't see any mullions or anything like that. It does look like they did that cottage distribution of a third over two-thirds, kind of in one area. And if the function of those windows remain closed, it kind of looks like the house, but if they open them, you're right, they look different.

yeah and as an outbuilding we would expect it to be simpler than the submission than the original or the primary um the primary structure yeah good good questions though okay sounds like a table yeah i'll make a motion to table this one all right those Can I ask one clarification, which I didn't ask on the other one. Do you have any conditions with your tabling? to a specific time or are you just outright tabling whenever you want to come back?

They can figure that out. Can you say that they know what they are doing? I don't want them to come and not know what they're doing.

And our motion to just table simply includes the fact that you're going to communicate. We didn't put the questions in our motion on the last one. We just go the same way. That's under an assumption on our part.

I just wanted to double check. Sorry about the interruption. It was moved by Alan. Was it seconded? No, sorry.

I think Linda did.

Those in favor? Aye. Those opposed? Chair votes aye. Okay, that's our last new business. Administrative approvals. Do you want to go through those?

We have a long run of not a lot. So we have a heat pump, specifically the condenser unit for a heat pump at 247 Washington Boulevard. No concerns there. Just utilities. 242 West 10th. This was a fence. This was actually a fence that I had previously approved last summer and it didn't get built until they came back for re-approval. It does include the option of a gate along the driveway, but no concerns.

Good question.

Yeah.

If they get approval and then they don't build it and then come back to that to pay the $35 again for the COA?

So we only charge a fee for those who come to the meeting for review and it's $25. Okay. For tabling, we don't continue recharging it. It's just every new application. For staff review, which would be a fence, we do it for no fee. And then we did introduce this year a fee for notice to proceeds, specifically focused around demolitions. Those now come with a $100 fee. I think we talked, before you were on the board, but we talked about that. But we have not had any notice of proceeds this year. We had three last year, so.

And it's a higher fee if they do it without asking and then they come back to us? Yes.

So we do also charge a late fee or Yeah, a late fee both in the you didn't submit a COA or you did a project and then you're caught as an endorsement. And then that is $50. So you would pay $75 total.

Question. Yeah. So as we're talking about fees, do we have a fee for special meetings?

We do not have a fee for special meetings. Just charging the standard application fee, which is $25.

Could be something good.

something to consider by brand or extortion we still are servants of the side you know you guys aren't going to get that money right neighborly i mean before 2024 everything that came to here was free no fees so these are new ish you should get a raise Well, I'm glad I got all mine then before then.

Yes.

Well, especially with the notice to proceeds, we do noticing with those, and that takes a lot of office labor and also a lot of postage to do that. So specifically with those, there's a need, and then just increased administrative everything. We don't want to make fees a barrier for people coming to this. Right. We were the only process that didn't have them. So we needed to do something, but we didn't want it to be exactly a barrier.

Well, it's nice for them to be serious enough to pay the fee to come, right? So now we're redoing this. I would almost be more willing to attack on a, you didn't show fee. Yeah.

Man, you guys are brutal. So the question is the reaction to it.

Maybe they have a dog in the hospital like I did last week. They could have extenuating circumstances.

That's what we'll hope.

Or not hope. All right, what else we got over there, Anna?

So what has the reaction been to the fees? Has it been neutral? Okay, cool.

I don't think anyone's commented on it. Most people assume... There was a fee of some kind anyways. Yeah. Yep. Occasionally I've used it as a let's get everything in so you don't have to pay this again. And it's helped some people move it along a little bit, but most of the time there's no real discussion of it. Okay. Moving on. We've got 77 West 11th. This is Hope Church. As part of the dwelling place housing project, they needed to relocate two sheds. So they... What's interesting about the Hope Church property, or what was the Hope Church property where that apartment building is now, that's not in the historic district, but the rest of the church property is in the historic district. So the sheds were not on the non-historic district property, moved into the historic district property. There's nothing controversial about them. In fact, they were wood. And they're behind the education wing. That was approved. And then lastly, another fence. This was another... Fence that had been previously approved, not finished, and then coming back to finish it. So a four-foot board dog-eared fence on Ninth Street. That was everything I reviewed this past month. Any other admin questions? Okay.

Committee and staff report.

So we do have a vacancy on the board with Derek's departure. Our staff will review applications kind of on a rolling basis. So if you know anyone who would be a great fit or who's thought about applying in the past, please encourage them to reach out to me. I'd love to talk to them. We do have an application process, as you guys know. We're looking for... Folks who are interested in historic preservation have perhaps some experience in a related field. We don't currently have an architect, which we're always looking for. And for this open spot, they do not need to live in the historic district. They have to be a resident of the city of Holland, but we're already at our quota of how many have to live in the historic district. So this one doesn't have to.

Do you think that Matthew Daub?

He has been considered in the past. He's a student, so we've kind of gone back and forth on that.

What's the company he works for?

He works for Nick Berlinski's business. Have you met Nick? No. Okay, so Nick used to be on the Historic District Commission and he's a local architect in town.

Does he have anyone else in his office?

I have already asked.

I sent out an email to people at work today, so we'll see if anybody responds.

Okay, excellent. And I know Audrey's been asking people, so we'll find someone.

And then training, parliamentary procedures training.

Yeah, I wanted to just remind everyone that next month in October, we have another Michigan Municipal League training. So there was one this spring that was hosted at the library. This one that's coming up doesn't have a location yet, but it is noted. Sometimes I can't remember, but that's from 6 to 8 p.m. I'm sure I'll be getting more information in the coming weeks, and I'll share it with all of you. But I think that would be a good one to attend just for refreshing how our meetings should be run. You guys do a really good job, but it doesn't hurt to always keep learning.

Yeah, if you get a link for sign-up or anything.

Yes, I will definitely share it when we receive it.

Okay. Anything else?

Motion to adjourn.

Second. All those in favor?

Aye.

All those opposed? Chair votes aye.