Planning & Zoning Board - Regular Meeting

here. Kudo here, Espinosa here, and Wheelley is absent with notice. All right, we'll look for a motion to approve tonight's agenda. I'll make a motion and a second. Have a motion, a second to approve tonight's agenda. All in favor? I opposed. Look for a motion to approve the minutes of the April 14th, 2026 meeting. Make a motion to approve the minutes. I'll second. A motion and a second to approve the minutes for the April 14th, 2026 meeting. All in favor?

I opposed. All right. Public comments. Do we have one anyone here from the public wanting to address anything that's not on the agenda? All right, Mr. Clark, you have four minutes. I haven't seen Mr. Clark in a long time. Welcome.

We haven't been here, so use your four minutes, please. Okay. So, residential uh seven open single family house permits, twin homes, we have two. Uh the commercial um 1205 North Oaks Avenue Con closed that one out up here um in industrial park and then the city of Horus have two jobs. One is the bathroom that closed out and then the resetting of some of the shelters and Craig has not said that they put us out yet. Quick troop we did there. Did the footings for the building. I called did the gas canopies today and I'm going do the freestanding sign tomorrow for the footings. So that's moving along quite quickly. It'll go it'll go quickly. So

um and then that um code enforcement um project we're working on with the owner Brian Sundererman. So Teresa's talked to him. I've talked to him several times. Basically, he at this point he's made a decision. He does not want to throw his money into a rabbit hole. Which property is this? Take quite a bit of money. Which property is this? Um, South of the Catholic Catholic Church there, 100 South Month Avenue. Yep.

So, um, he's, um, indicated that he does want to try to get it reszoned to RHD. uh if they're approved, then he'll hire a contractor and try to build a single family house or a twin home. Uh but there is some concern with the lot size and what can be done. So he's also working with a mortgage company on financing. So it's not easy proposition. It's going to take a little bit of time, but he knows we're we're on him and we're going to stay on him until we get a resolution. So see there's a concern on lot size potentially for what he wants to put on there, you know. So I mean I haven't seen a set plan. I don't think we've seen a set plan yet. cuz well sing a single family he wouldn't have any problem right

if he wants to do a twin home I guess I could see possibly there's not a lot there indicated previously um we talked to him about it is he would kind of like to do a twin home obviously you can get two rental incomes you know out of it so I think he's yeah trying to find a plan that would fit on the lot and meet the setbacks whatnot um is there any height restriction there in that neighborhood Mhm. No,

no, no. And if he I I told him, you know, we've adopted the high density, the residential high density, so if he reszones it to that, he will be able to have, you know, smaller setbacks um for it. So, it is very close to the same size. Um just a little bit smaller than like maybe all you don't know, Vance Peterson has some on Oaks and Third or Fourth Street. He has a twin home that he did there a few years ago. The lot size very similar to that, just a little bit smaller. So, I think he could find some. That lot would fit would fit everything as far as I was going to say I think he could as far as size cuz it it comes out at 0.24 acres.

Yeah. So, just short of a quarter acre. So, it's between 10 and 11,000. Like I said, you know, we have similar ones. So, I think think you could build something on it. I just one. Yeah. If you do go to a store, you definitely could, you know, you shrink out the square footage of the building. So, but I have not seen any plans or anything for it yet. So, it a quick measure, it's between 145 and 150 ft deep. Yeah. And gosh, that lot doesn't look like

120. Let me clear back out of this. It's going to be over 100 foot north to south and about a 145 east to west. So again, that should Yeah. And I would think definitely with 70 It's 70. It's 70 feet north to south and 145 long. Oh yeah, I know. I So depending on depending on how it went in there, that's going to be the problem cuz 70 ft with a 20 25 ft front and back if you wanted to face it onto First Street. Mhm. That's that wouldn't work cuz you only trust 20 ft wide.

Right. Right. So that's the problem is it's long and too narrow. Yeah, we have done Yeah, we can talk about later, but we have done some where we addressed it off the the small side, right? And then um the doors face different ways and it's just like unit one and unit two and whatnot. So, I mean, there are things we could do. Yeah. Well, whatever we can do to work with him to Yes. figure out how to remove the blight and get something new that I totally agree. Anything new would be an improvement. Cool. Anything else, Mr. Clark?

Yes, sir. Anything anyone else has for Mr. Clark? You did very well, sir. You got us to our 705 hearing and petition applications. First, we'll look at zoning variance hearing for lot 20 block 4, Turtle Creek Drive exemption request for driveway width. Teresa, we'll start with you with staff report.

Yes. So, this is a variance request that we received from Cory Leinger. He would like to have a wider driveway in the boulevard area than what the city currently allows. He um just recently purchased a lot um one of the newer lots in Turtle Creek Highlands development. It is a double lot, so it's not a single, it's it's two lots basically put into one. Um, so he has quite a bit of area there to to work with on that lot. Um, he is requesting um a 50-ft driveway, current city regulations or 36 ft in the boulevard area. So obviously then he would need a variance if we would deviate from that. Um, as I put in my report, you know, we um, as a city, I I talked this over the public works department. Obviously, we have restrictions on um, driveway whisk because for a few reasons. Um, we want to have that green area there for, you know, uh, surface where water can drain to and cut down on runoff. It also acts on that boulevard area, that green space to store snow when plowing in the winter time. we get snow once in a while here in South Dakota. Um and also it um if you would expand driveway width it does cut down on the on street parking because you have more driveway cut offs you know that are wider. So I mean as a city that's why we put in an order in this to basically limit the driveway width. Um you have the variance request um that was filled out and submitted by Mr. um and stating his reasons for it and I can let him speak to that. Um he does cite that he is going to put um a large garage on that would have four bays um narrowing it down. He believes there's a safety concern there going down from you know the 50 foot then you'd have to

taper to the 36 ft. Um so l I I'll let him speak a little bit more for you know his request on that but that is what the request for is to variance from 50 ft um or from going from a 36t in the boulevard to a 50 foot.

All right have the applicant come up to the podium please. carrier, but not for sure. Hi, my name is Corer. I am requesting approval for a 50 driveway approach with for a new home being built across two combined lots for the four stall garage. Since this is one home being built across two lots, it creates unique layout that the standard driveway room wasn't really designed for. Because these are two buildable lots including one corner lot. Each lot could otherwise have its own 36 foot built through it. By combining the two lots in one property, we're actually bringing back approximately 22 ft of potential curve cut and preserving more street piping and slope containment area than if two separate homes were built there. The hardship is that while the city of Harford allows a four stall garage, the standard 36 foot driveway approach does not reasonably or safely accommodate access to the permitted garage configuration. Instead of two separate driveways, we're requesting one 50T driveway approach for to safely and practically serve the home and gradually. We believe this is a reasonable and thoughtful request that respects the intent of the city park for the rules about creating a safe and functional layout for our family. We chose to build in this community because we felt it was the right long-term fit and a great place to raise our children. We're simply asking for a practical solution

that fits unique layout these two lots while still preser preserving our third party and openness for the neighborhood and what would otherwise be built. Well, let me speak first here, Corey. Um, I appreciate the work that you put into this. Um most most times we have someone show up here for conditional use or variance or whatever and we're lucky to have something drawn out on a bar napkin for us to look at. So I I appreciate Yeah.

I appreciate the work that you put into this. Um I just I want to preface any other discussion that we have is a variance requires a hardship. Okay. and you're you're expressing the hardship is, you know, a safety whatever to go in and out of the driveway. And I understand that the problem that we as a board have to have to contemplate with this is right, we're going to give we're going to say you have a hardship. You've got all this front frontal space, all those kind of things that you brought out into this, but somebody three houses down from you decides to build a house and put a fourc car garage on it. They don't have all of this frontage and everything, but they come in and say, "Well, you gave him a hardship variance to do it. Now you have to give us a hard you have to give us the variance." And it puts us in a tough spot then because how do we tell that person their hardship isn't the same as your hardship? So I just I just want to preface that as we start the discussion on this

that sometimes we as a board have to talk about not just the situation but what could the situation be in the future right to avoid that problem. Yep. So, and I understand that to a point of what's it's a situational thing like what's your how many linear feet actual lot are you are you you know facing to the actual street and that's sort of like where I'm coming from where I have more than your typical one lot configuration

right and I and I understand what you're saying there the situation that we have to consider on it is not your what room you have there and all this lot that you have, but how do we handle the next person that comes in and claims that this is a hardship? Because the definition of the hardship basically is you're not allowed to use your property in the same manner as others in the same in the same area. So, we just have that and and you I can't tell you how many times in my time sitting on this board, we'd have someone come in and points a finger and says, "Well, you gave it to them, so you have to give it to me." And it made perfect it made absolute perfect sense

that we gave it to that person, but then the next person walks in and well, you gave it to him, you have to give it to me. And in their situation, there's no way that we should ever consider doing that, whether it's a conditional use permit, variance, whatever it is. what amendments are for though. You make an amendment that says if you have two lots, you allow it. But if you have one, so that's your trade-off. But but this driveway is not This is the driveways on one lot. It's not split between the two lots. It's not on the same street. You just have one lot. He's getting back a whole pile of parking when he's But not to Turtle Creek Drive. He's only He's only got one driveway on Turtle Creek Drive. He took the driveway from

Dor. Those are some weird looking facing door. And I don't know about you, but I I don't want that as my address. Trying to explain that to some foreigner on the phone would be a little difficult. So I was like, Turtle Creek, everyone knows that's turtle. They might get it. But to answer to answer your question on that about the lots, I realize that it's it was two lots, but it's no longer d it's no longer two lots. It's one lot. So, for us to try to amend an ordinance, it's it's hard to say, well, if you put two if you put the two lots together, then you can

do it by feet. Now, if you to split the garage, put a twocar on one side of your house, two car on the other side of your house, you'll be fine. Two driveways, you're good. Okay. Then that goes back to the Is that a reasonable use of the property? No, I'm a home designer. I could have done that. I don't think anyone really wants We have a house going up like that.

Yeah, I believe it to what what could be the potential here of this hardship. I have now 50ft driveway coming to a sidewalk and I have a 36 ft approach width. Right now, you just gave a car the ability to park in that 14 ft of that driveway. It's a north facing driveway. You have ice in the winter time. It's a north facing driveway. The house shades the driveway. It's going to be a little icy. Now, that car just has the ability to park there. You park your car up here and you know, human nature is, oh, this I'm parked in front of this garage doll. Shut this thing in reverse and let her have it. Oh, there's a car behind me because the driveway I can't see where it is. It goes down into this little, you know, bottleneck configuration and then you're essentially hopping the curb damaging the vehicle or the vehicle that was parked there. You know, that sort of situation is sort of what I'm saying. It is a safety hazard and especially with the configuration of the home like it would be it would solve a lot of issues to where other people do not have these issues. I would think

the threear garage if someone designed the the driveway so it melted from the south sun. That would change a lot of issues too. I think we had something similar with ducks duck s. Yep. couple years ago. He's got ton of concrete in his front and he came in asking for the same thing and he still has a 36 foot but he's got three stalls and he's got a pad. He's got three stalls. Three stalls stalls. Yeah. So it's three stalls and it's a single lot.

There are properties that have three stalls with a parking pad. So essentially four stalls. So you're you're penalizing people that want to put a four-star garage in with large homes. You know, how is that fair? I I'm I'm just here's here's what I here's what I'm going to say. Fair word is my way though. When it when it comes when it comes to zoning and when it comes to ordinances and when it comes to those kind of things, fair is fair for everybody.

So there's an ordinance and everybody follows the rules. That's fair. Making an exception for someone is then not being fair. That's making an exception to one person. All right. Um, I have a three call. I have oversized threecar garage. I have a parking pad next to my garage. I have a 36 foot wide driveway at the street. I I understand what you're saying on this. But if somebody's going if we're going to come out of any one of those stalls of the garage, all three stalls of the garage basically come straight out to the street. If I put something in the parking pad, the parking pad you got to angle your way down to get down there.

Mhm. So I in effect have four stalls and three closed and I'm and I'm living with it. Yeah. But why do you have to live with it, Tony? Why? Because that's because Right. That's my point is why in a small town are is there Sou Falls allows this guys. We have we're a small town. We're not Sou Falls.

No, I'm just saying Sou Falls allows it and they do allow driveways wider with four stone with those four stone garages. They approve it with the plans and Souall and Sou Falls they can do what they want. I get it. The but guys, the town of Krooks is a is a small town too and so is Hartford and he did his homework before coming here and made calls to those towns and they will give you those kinds of approvals hooks in a heartbeat. They chose to come over here and build a very expensive big home because they want to be in this community. I'm an oversized lot as well. And if you're going to add the four,

I mean, you can call Krooks, you could call here, but a lot of other people have built very expensive houses in Hartford. They still have 36 ft. So, um, four stone garage, Brad. That's the I'm just saying don't. I have an acorage and I have a oversized garage and I have a shop and we have what we have. We back it around. We have a turnaround. We have a background and then we pull out of the 10-ft drive. If you're going to add that extra concrete, why don't you make yourself a backout so your kids I have three teenage kids backing on Colton Road. So we have a back out drive on to Colton Road. Colton Road where they do not go 35 miles an hour. Right.

Still to this day do not go. How long is your driveway to the street? Well, that's what I'm saying. Can you also back up your house? Why not? You got two lights. There he is. Of the drain. We we we chose to get two lots for the yard size, not the driveway size. And the drainage drainage. Well, it can't be drainage cuz the other lot must have had proper drainage. No, these they're actually having to change the drainage out there because of this.

Okay. I'm just saying it doesn't I it doesn't take much of a turnaround to make a to make a backup. You probably only need you've got 40 ft already. You can make an easy 10-ft backup. Drive out of the driveway. I design them all the time. So, so my point in car park on the essentially it's not that shallow a driveway. But so you guys have never like approved the variance for a driveway size ever. Nobody in Hartford ever has gotten approval. Nope. Okay. There's a gentleman sitting behind you in the back back there who tried to get a variance for his driveway. Didn't get it

three years ago. And you guys exceptions for anyone. What we did at that point in time is we change we changed. Well, that's what I'm saying. Like you're saying that you're not going to do it because it's an exception for somebody, but you're going to follow the rules for everyone. So then why not? Well, what we did what what came out of that discussion about the variance at that point in time, your driveway could only be 36 ft wide at the property line. All right. Your property pins more than likely are 12 in inside the sidewalk. Yep.

So, at that point in time, if you wanted to be more than 36 ft wide, you could you could cement out your whole front yard. Okay? It has nothing against you spitting out the whole front yard, but you couldn't bring 36 ft more than 36 ft to the sidewalk, which meant in the case of that variance, he was going to have to leave 12 leave 12 in of something in between the driveway and the sidewalk to follow the ordinance. So, we changed our ordinance then to allow that width to the sidewalk to come to the sidewalk. need to go to the sidewalk now,

but we kept the curb cut, the apron, and the approach. We kept that in place. But is there an air a place where you can meet in the middle with these people that are building four stall garages connected to? I have one question to ask. Yep. Is there a 50- foot wide four-stall garage in the city of Hartford? And if so, did they build on a lot? Two lots with my I I I can't think I to answer the question. I can't think of one. Okay.

And I spent an awful lot of time running up and down streets in this town and seeing property. So, I can't tell you that that there is one.

When we asked a realtor, they said they didn't think there was either. My my purpose for having four shot is in the winter time. Those two stalls that you were saying have your turn around and stuff in. We're planning on parking our vehicles in that stall and utilizing the garage essentially for the kids to do their activities, play, you know, do whatever they want. So now we're taking our cars and moving them over here in the in the winter time. And then in the summer time, we're moving them to the other side because obviously once they're closer to the door, kids can do whatever they want in the backyard. That just doesn't ship guidelines for

I think I said I think I said this when we started and I'm going to I'm going to repeat um because I'm I've been very strong on this my entire time on the board, whether being on the board or being the chairman. variances. 10 years ago, variances were handed out by this board like candy bars. And he basically could have taken that entire ordinance book and thrown it in the garbage can because nothing was followed in it because every time somebody came in with any reason or whatever, they just got thrown out and they just gave them variances. Sure.

And just before I joined the board 8 years ago, there was a decision made that we need to tighten we need to tighten things up.

And so we tighten variances up. Variances require a hardship. The hardship denies the owner the same right to use his property as someone else and it cannot be self-inflicted. That's all written in the variance in the hardship variance. So, not giving you a variance for the driveway is is not keeping you from using your property the same way as anyone else in that neighbor neighborhood or district because they get a 36 ft driveway just as you get a 36 ft driveway. Okay? They don't have a 50-ft driveway and we're telling you you can't. So, we're not keeping you from doing that. And wanting to have a 50-ft driveway because you're building an expensive house in a big fourc car garage is self-inflicted. That's nothing that's I mean, that's your choice to do that. And I applaud you for your choice and I applaud you for investing the community and everything else. But by the ordinance, the way the ordinance is written, the wording of the ordinance on a variance, I have a hard time saying that you have a hardship that is not self-induced or it's keeping you from doing something of your property that everyone else has the ability to do.

So Tony, middle of the winter, ice, just like you said, we have snow. She's a nurse. She's on call. How can you not say that it's a hardship that she is crawling in her car, backing out on ice, and having to maneuver out of the garage in the middle of the night to get to the hospital? How is that not a hardship, Tony? That that has nothing to do with what we're discussing here. But it's what we're talking No, no, no, no, it does not. Okay. So, this is self-induced because we chose to

the the the hardship has to be in your use of the property and your allowed use of the property, not because you're going to slip and fall on the ice in the winter time.

That's I mean, if we if we as a board want to follow what's in that zoning book and what it says, I think we have a hard time approving it. But it all makes sense. Okay, that's what I'm trying to get at in this. It all makes sense. But if we're going to follow the rule, the law in the book, in the wording in the book, it's hard. It's hard to do it. And it makes it exceptionally hard for the next person that walks in and says, "I'm building this nice big house and I'm putting a fourc car garage on it. I figured out how to put it on this lot and it's not a corner lot. You know, we're going to take up all this boulevard space.

You gave you gave you gave leasingers a variance to do it at their place. So, how come you're not going to give it to me? But is there an amendment option here where you can put a rule in that says if you follow this rule, well, you can you can get it. If if we want if we want to draft an ordinance and we want to go through the trouble to do the ordinance and put it all together, how soon do you want to start building your house? We're going to start as soon as you let us. Well, how does two and a half months from now sound? The driveways. We won't be doing anything. No, that'd be fine. Yeah. Well, that would be fine. Cuz I say if

we if we could build the structure, we don't have to do any curve cuts or anything right here. If if we if we were as a board decided that we wanted to try to to change this driveway thing, okay, you're looking at close to 2 and 1/2 months from the start of the process until it's all said and done because it has to come through us. It has to go through two readings at the council. It has to go through we have to have a meeting to put it together here. Then we have to have another meeting to approve it and have a hearing for it here. And then two council hearings and then 20 day publication. And 20-day publication. So I know from past experience every time we're going to do something like this, it's two and a half to three months. Oh, thank you.

Every time you have to do it. What's that? I'll bake you cookies and do them every time. Well, back to I I I knew you were going to say this when I came here about doing this for everyone else in the future. But that's what variance is for for you. Okay. There's no conditional uses are

conditional uses are for that variances are to correct an issue that's keeping someone from using their property in the same manner as everyone else in the neighborhood or district. So let's let's just say and I throw this completely away from this. We've got somebody who they have they have a lot like we were talking about this lot over here earlier. It's extremely narrow. They want to put something on there, but they're 2 ft short of a sideyard setback or a backyard setback. All the rest of the houses in the neighborhood were built in there long before any of this was about. So, they even go so far as the house that was there burned down. Now, they want to put a new house in, but it doesn't fit. they can come and get a variance because everybody else in the neighborhood gets to have a house on their lot, but because of the size of the lot, you can't figure out how to put a decent house or put a house into there. That's that's the hardship and the variance of them not being able to do the same as other folks within the neighborhood.

That makes sense there. Yeah. So, I think it'd be great if you could make some changes to allow for other people to come in and have horse stalls because I actually think it's going to become more popular. I mean, look at the shell community. We're essentially trying not to be over dramatic with the size, but being able it reads cannot endure the same rates as others who have smaller garages that are attached to their homes. No, I just asked you. Does other people have 50 foot wide four stall garages in town?

There's no there are I'm going to say over a hundred threestall garages with parking pads next door, which I'm going to put in the same the exact same fit as your fourc car garage because the parking pad gets used once in a while. typical I mean the three two or three stalls get used in the garage for cars and then when somebody comes over to visit or something somebody goes on the pat

I don't know how you plan on using your fourc car garage but you're going to have numerous people that the fourth card fourth stall in the garage is going to be a storage unit so they don't need a 50-ft driveway because they're just going to store stuff in there or they're going to put their boat in there or something like that. So again, I understand how you might want to use it and it would make sense to you how you want to use it. Yeah.

But everybody else doesn't use it the same way. And if we give you that 50-ft driveway, I guarantee we are going to have we give you a variance, I guarantee we are going to have a whole bunch of people standing trees at the counter up here filling out variances that they want to widen out their driveway because they want to be a straight shot from their parking pad getting out because they have a pain in the butt getting their camper backed into the parking pad or their boat backed in because they got to back around the corner. So I'll be here right down the Oh yeah.

I mean you have 40 ft to to move in 7 ft. You can't back up better than that. You guys I know you can back up better than that. You guys file for variances and have the same I know you can angle 7 ft on a 40ft length. But why should you have to when you're building I'm not utilizing why should you have to the Okay in Harford it's the rule you're not utilizing the four stalls like you could be if you had a wider approach because I could hop in I have my pickle parked in that far

like your fourth pad. Would you utilize it more if you could just back right in back out? Same with you guys. If you could back in and out would you utilize it more? Most likely. if it was easier to back something up. I mean, I've watched his dad, they have a little pad thing to the side of their house, too. And I've watched him back up, but would it be easier to just be able to turn around the street and whip it in without having to I'm not saying it wouldn't be easier. It probably definitely be easier, but I guess that's not that's not the world I live in. when when what would it be our our shop when we pull in one of the reasons I picked out the shop is because I've got two driveways and I've got in front of our two of our three stalls go straight out the driveway

right so when I have my inexperienced backers who have trouble going straight much less going around a corner I don't have to worry about bashing in the side of the shop when they're trying to back into the shop right so I understand every piece of backing up all that kind of stuff you that in the variance thing it says something about same use as a three stall garage. No, it does not say the variance. Our variance ordinance does not say anything about three stallship and it said something about having the same use as any other the same rates as others who have smaller garages. No one else has a floor stall.

Does not say anything about garages in our hardship. Well, you're comparing parking paths and you're comparing side concrete. GR the the you take that verbiage out because that's not what's in the book. The book says the same. Teresa, will you read exactly what it says? I thought it was in our packet and I didn't have it.

You figure it was in your packet. Yeah. An unnecessary hardship must be established by the applicant who applies for a variance. For purposes of this chapter, an unnecessary hardship is a situation where in the absence of a variance, an owner can make no feasible reasonable use of the property. Convenience, loss of profit, financial limitations, or self-imposed hardship shall not be considered as grounds for approving of variance by the board of adjustments.

I apologize. I think it was something that you said that stemmed shall not be read. I was going to say there there are other conditions too. Um, so exceptional and extraord extraordinary circumstances apply to the property that do not apply to other properties in the same zone or vicinity and that result from lot size or shape, topography or other circumstances which are not of the applicant's making. And you're very making the very last the very last line goes, okay, you have a nice big lot because you bought two lots. So that's of your making.

But what about the line that I have that's where it says? I'm just thinking what else refer to. Yeah, that's literal interpretation of the provisions under this ordinance would deprive the applicant of the rights commonly enjoyed by other properties in the same district under terms of this ordinance. Right. Nobody else has a four stall. Does it matter? It doesn't matter if they have a four-stall garage or one stall garage. Everybody gets 36 feet. Everybody else in the neighborhood's got 36 feet. Yeah. You're not

You're not You're asking for more than them. If we were if because some some reason you couldn't get 36 ft, then you would have that part of the of that comes in that comes into place. Then if we were not allowing you to have as much as anyone else in the neighborhood, given that Harvard is a growing community and you've got monster developments coming, you got big developments coming and you're going to have homes going up that have four stall garages.

Yeah. Wouldn't it make more sense to start thinking about maybe revising this to allow it for people that have it? I'm going I'm going to tell you I spent way too much time in tea in Harrisburg and in Sou Falls where they have basically let people put driveways everywhere and they got 10 ft in between the driveways and I'm trying to do my job and I'm getting hollered at all the time because I'm blocking somebody's driveway because as soon as you start giving everybody all these big driveways and putting the houses all of a sudden there's no green space and there's no boulevard and there's nowhere to park. And I agree with you 100% because I deal with that too when I go into town to friends. I I'm I won't disagree with you a bit on that one. But when you have somebody that has two lots and you literally have 150 ft of parking on the side of that entire two lots.

Yes. But if we give them the 50 ft, then the next person that wants 50 ft may not have two lots. If we meet the requirements for the approved parking, say we those two lots weren't there. If we put two there's two houses there with two separate driveways. Take that. What's the parking that they're going to have on those lots at that point? Okay. And then if you if you want I'm following where you're going with this. You know what I'm saying? So I don't really want to argue with

No, I'm not I'm not going I'm not argue. What I'm going to come back and say is where in your mind, how do we change this ordinance that could allow this, but it still fits and works elsewhere down the road. Linear feet occur. If it if it has this many linear feet of frontage to the street, the variance should apply at the width of the approach, the size of the width of the drive. And what's and what's that number?

Well, it would be whatever the standard width is with a 36 ft standard width approach on a single lot. The commonly housed lot where you put a house, where does that linear feet add 20 ft to it? and say if you have this minimum, you cannot go over the width of your garage, but you can go the width of your garage to accommodate and not make it look like a chop job essentially and bottleneck yourself and do 14 again. What's what's that width?

What's that? What's that number? What's what's the number of what's the number of curb linear feet of curb that has to be left after you put in the driveway? Yeah. Not not a I don't and this isn't even this isn't even a this is all the way across town because I can have 75 ft frontage lot. I can have 75 by 100 deep. 7500 square f feet minimum for single family home. Okay.

So I can be 75 wide and 100 deep. Now Miss house designer over here just designed me a house that put all the garages in the front. So I've got four I've got a four stall garage across the front of the house. So the front of my house is garage. Yep. And and now I want to have a 50ft driveway. Looks like you need this very but I've but I've only got but I've only got 25 ft. I would never design you a house like that. I've only got 25 linear feet left curb in front. Right. you you can't I mean

I say to try to put I wanted to put the question out to you is what is that number because I don't know what the right number would be and I don't know how to write the ordinance to have the right number to fit.

But I think if you if you actually looked at the lot sizes across because you're you're going to grandfather in the rest of those people. They're not going to be able to. It's only going to be going forward because you're going to be looking at the new lots and the lot sizes that are coming in in your developments. that's what you're probably trying to care for here. So that to me would be something that a number can easily be gleaned from all four of the phases that you've got going on in Turtle Creek. The new one that's been approved out on north up north on on Highway 38 north of 38. That's not been approved. That's not through approval yet. 38 38 North is by a quick start.

38 38 North I don't think JAMS has their development plan approved yet. Correct. That's still in that development plan is not approved yet and it's not been platted. So I'm going to guess that there is a way I bet you if I sat down and asked Chad GT question. So you would go around these places the development in T. That's all. Do they have a It's not It's not shes. It's regular houses. And we don't know the one I'm talking about. They're all shouses. Those houses out in the country. West Yeah, that's what I'm asking. Have you been out there? Oh, yeah. Okay. Or do they have a different set? So, like if Well, the first the first thing is they're in the county. Okay.

Which is a whole which is a whole different world. Okay. Great. Sorry. I don't understand a lot of this. The question is because if North 38 ends up being like a shop community, they just get different. It's not going to be because it's in the city. There the preliminary plan that's being worked on right now is a is a normal development there. It's not a sh community. No, we won't move over there. Don't move the city of Tucson either because your driveway can only long the original the original the original planned sh community that everybody talks about is where Maple Pass is now that that ground originally they were talking about do they make but putting SH My question is if you would ever have a SHA community would would it also be in Harford ever like ever

because would there be a different would there be a different like would it have to be in that case a different driveway So we do have regulations for shelters that we passed last year. They had to follow the same driveway with Y. There's no difference. It's just I did I did I did have a gentleman the other day that that called me asking about a parcel a parcel which is in the city limits that he's looking to purchase and build a shout on it. And quite honestly, I suggested to him for what he wanted to do that he should look at deanexing that little chunk out of the city because it's way outlined somewhere. I said deanics and go back out in the county because the county will let you do any damn thing you want.

Okay. Yeah. I just was wondering if there is and it was this was I mean this is way detached from city limits. Nobody would even realize that that ground is in the city limits unless you so but just looking forward forward thinking here. Wouldn't it be reasonable to to look at average lot sizes, figure out what that linear footage is, and come up with a reasonable number that lets people have a driveway, the size of their garage,

the size of their garage. And and that is allowed based on just what you said, the linear footage, because in his case, he's got he is literally giving a half a block of parking to you guys to park on in return for 14. He's a half a block city. I'm not parking over there. Yeah. For anybody that comes to Triple Creek, right, for something, we're not we're not we're not going to won't even entertain a separate ordinance on what your sizes can be in quote Turtle Creek. It's either the city or it's nothing.

And we have circle all the I mean like all there's you know multiple developments going on. You have Turtle Creek out there. You got that one. Got Duck Trail. Those are all big lots. They're wide lots. Yep. You go west go west of uh coffee coffee coffee cup and they're lucky if they're 75 ft maybe. Yeah, we know a home over there. Okay. All the wedges over there. Yeah, they're 75 ft. And with our residential

high density, they can actually be 55 ft frontage. So, how do you you know, and that's that's the one quite honestly I really struggle with because that guy with a 55 ft frontage can still have a 36 ft throat on the driveway. So, now we're down to the point 36 in stroke with a either side. They're allowed to go out to 44 ft at curb. So, they got 55 ft and 44 ft of it, right, is tied up in driveway. But I think you actually just nailed it on what you're saying.

It is you. It is never will be a one-sizefits-all, but it but it actually is variances based on the the based on your your your linear feet. What did you say or less for and the remainder 40 some feet? Well, you got you've got a 55 you have a 55 foot wide lot. On residential high density, you can be 50 minimum lot size is 55t frontage, right? They got a 36 ft driveway with 4T with 44 with 44 foot opening. So apron because they apron so they can go off. We have no street parking. So you have no street parking at all. I that absolutely appalls me that we even have

right. Okay. So there's there's your other side of that. If if we're going to give a four stall garage a bigger driveway and somebody with a whole lot of linear footage a bigger driveway, then we probably should change the ordinance. And if you're a residential high density, you got 55 ft lot, you only get a 24T driveway. And honestly, that you I I'm right there with you. I agree because I think you would want to revisit that. I don't think someone would agree with that. It's 32 of them. You don't have as much money, so you don't get as much driveway. That doesn't seem very fair.

But they're changing it over this year. I talked to the head changes to 36 now. But the lots are also getting way bigger than they used to. And I mean, we have 27. Comparing us to Sou Falls because we are not Sou Falls. I live in I know I'm saying they have Why are we bringing comparisons of anyone else? What do you want us to do about that? I don't want to be Their driveway is only 32 ft. Technically not too false.

Right. It's so they're actually smaller and the only way they're going to 36 ft is if you're on arterial road, then they'll let you do 36. They're still stuck in 32, but the difference is their planning and zoning doesn't regulate their driveways. So the only one that can tag in here is the engineer of the city. I ain't going around checking pulling a tape. Neither do we. Right. So I'm not going to but we we don't pull a tape either, but when you're plan when you're build your plan when you're planning to get your building permit, that's part of when Mr. Clark goes out there and notices that it comes straight out of your garage,

which is which is how one that's come up a couple of times here was found is when Mr. Clark went out to do inspections, he determined the driveway was not to plan, right, or not to ordinance. He's got his own jackhammer and that's that's what got that all started. Yeah. Which in Sou Falls building inspector has no regulation over what the driving should be. They they don't have uh what control over it more or less. The engineering city has it. So building that's why people just run free and do whatever the hell they want in Sou Falls cuz they can't. Whereas in here we have rules. We do have rules trying to be a good neighbor and

I just don't want to I mean essentially the the the whole thing is it's it doesn't make any sense to do it that way like a 36 ft. It's just going to I mean look it fill it or whatever that just put up that big blue house. He bought what he got four last three. He bought three and then I don't know somebody else bought another one because he just put a sidewalk in there. But have you seen his approach? I mean he's 45 foot and he centered his approach on there. I mean we you going to be dragging mud out on the street because you back straight down the driveway and I mean just it doesn't make any sense to limit especially

your garage playroom. Put it on the other side of the house. Split your garage. I I I totally see it. Why would you put a big old garage and put it on the front of your house? That's what WE WANT. JUST NOT your design like what we want. Our design is our house. Well, the rule is you can't have a 50ft wide driveway. This driveway is not offensive to adjacent areas. In fact, it gives more people space to park because we do not have two 36 ft with roaches going onto our property. Let's just put the driveway in the back of the house and just call it.

So, that's sort of our argument and hoping you guys sort of honor it or maybe give it some consideration, but it looks like you guys don't want to. So, we're going to go. We have children. I'm going to go cuz I got children at home. Okay,

guys. I grew up around here. This is I mean Hartford has been known as being, you know, not real friendly to people who want to come in and ask for adjustments. And you're proving the point. Why are we why are we acting like this? So if we're so hard to work with, why is there so many developments in town? No, I'm not saying you're hard to work with. I'm saying you're just not being did say we were hard to say you're hard to work with. So we've got Asen's thing. We got Doug Trail. No, but it's so if we're so hard to work with, wise developers keep coming to town investing community. You're not being friendly to the people that want to come in and and and have a reason. We're we're here giving you solid reasons.

I don't say you're not, but this right here, none of the things you got on there go through A through G. Nothing on here goes to A through G. I'm just saying they go by. Doesn't impose the safety. This isn't the Wild West. We can't just change the rules for one person. We just can't. No, we're not asking. He would wait. He would wait and let you re-evaluate. You know how hard it's going to be to come up with linear feet for a driveway? Because then the next guy's going to come in and be like, I'm one foot short. Can I get a car garage?

Can I get a variance? Cuz I'm one foot short on linear feet and I want a 90 foot driveway. But would it be okay to re-evaluate and see if there's a way of coming up with an adjusted driveway width based? I don't want a bunch of 50 foot wide driveways. They're all hard for I can't go with that. You wouldn't put them in. Person had one lot. They're all going to put them in. So your reasoning is aesthetics is what you're saying.

I don't want I don't want everybody set up so everybody can follow the same rule. And you bought the lot. The rules were that's the width of the driveway. And I think somebody's giving you a good option, too. Whether you want to turn your house around or not, you could put another driveway in. You could flip the house and put a driveway in from both angles and not and and meet your or put just a backup. You got a 40 foot wide driveway. You can still park your cars 20 ft deep and have it just a It only takes 10 ft to do a backup. They closed today, guys. The the building started. There's He just told us he had months. He He does. I mean, technically, it's going to No, I said I have months to do the curb, then all you know.

Yeah, that stuff. You can't change the house. It's too late for that. It's starting, but I There's backups. I mean, we need to bring this to a close, Tony. We've talked about this. We're not making progress. Ordinances. Ordinance. I am not in favor of ordinances. Bring this to a close. Motion a motion. I make a motion that we deny the variance request.

I second it. Have a motion and a second to deny the variance request. Do we have any further discussion? So the motion is to deny the variance request. We'll go to vote. Miles, yes. Anderson, yes. Graham, yes. Todd, yes. Espinosa, yes. Randall, no.

Motion carries and it is denied. Okay. Ask question. Is that going to be done? Split the driveway in two. I've seen the bump out in the curb in the center. Right. We have a little bit of a curb. Yep. Okay. But what does that have to be? So, we have we have a number of twin homes in town that

Yeah. I say it's we've had a between lots that guy should know right there.

So, your your question. Let me let me answer here to a bit. We had a number of twin homes in town that before we changed the ordinance to allow you can smat out your front yard all the way to the sidewalk. We don't care how wide your driveway is. So this little piece to Keley's you were asking Keely about she didn't like the aesthetics. We allow you to basically cement. I mean, there's a percentage that you can't cement, but before we did that, we had a number of twin homes that they wanted to put like the double garage and the driveway was going to be too wide for the curb cut at the end. And so they brought they they brought it down to their 36 ft at the sidewalk, but then put in that curb cut so that they they could have the bump out in the center so they could have a wider either side.

We've seen those in town. And that I mean that very well is a good point that you bring up. That may be the answer to your situation. Um, but you would have to come down the driveway. You'd have that bump out and you've got to have a a split in the apron. You can't have the apron concreted all the way across. So, you'd put in the curb cut and you'd have say a foot or two feet of landscape or vegetation in that little bumpout curb. How does it like Creekide looks like this? Means they have it's a commercial property. We have different whisper Yeah.

And it's also parking on the front. So that's their parking lot just like the building center. Different situation B Park Barker Place Apartments down on Opal. So there's building on Opal and then there's buildings with a private street in the center, but the buildings on Opal have that same situation. Okay. Um they cemented across the whole front there for the garages and then they have there's bumpouts on either one of those.

Yep. is a snow removal guy. That's the way I love to see those apartments built because now we can push all the way across the building rather than having to back drag. I have another property that they to follow ordinance at that time they put rock in between. So they had like 5 ft of rock and then it's just a pain in to back drag all of those out. So your your solution there I think you'd have to bring it in and have so for the apron essentially the approach you you you'd be solid right you would basically be putting in two different approaches between the sidewalk and the curb between the sidewalk and the curb but your driveway

we've seen that in town but your driveway could be the full width yes go ahead Samaring when you're telling them to concrete the whole front yard. I just want to remind you their CCR covenants condition. So, good point, Sam. They think we're hard to get along with. Wait till they start looking at the covenants. I've read them. I gave the house more width of the front edge of the house than garage stall. So, it doesn't look like it's a garage, right? You know what I mean? It looks like a house. So

So don't don't I'm glad that the curb cuz I never even thought about that curb bump out. You mentioned that a half hour ago. Yeah. Okay. All right. I got that. Okay. Now I'm going to hit you with this. Jeez. Does that is that reasonable to do that or is it feasible? It's right in pardon my French. It's right in wording. Is that reasonable or feasible to do that on the property? Sure. Why? So the guy with the wing puts his wing down thinking there's nothing there. Smack goes a freaking weasel in the middle of the drive.

Well, if you realize you're on a corner lot, so our public works guys are going to be cutting the corner and up onto your grass all the time anyway. So don't worry. I I lived in seven years before the country. They don't don't worry about it. They'll they'll get your corner taken care of for you. But that like we're gonna obviously there's your work there's your workound and I think you just need to to get it down and drying and bring it in. Let Teresa send it to ISG but I don't I don't think there's any problem with that with the bump out according to the way our ordinance is written. Can you because you're basically coming down the two separate driveways, right? Bump out though. What are you talking about? Well, so having like between them,

you're going to you're going to come down. You're you're going to have your driveway coming down and then you're going to be at your 50t width at the sidewalk. Mhm. Then from the sidewalk towards the street, you're going to be 36 ft. So you're going to have two 36 footers. No. And then an apron either side. Is that 236? Don't even start. Okay. My number one two 25s 220 two 25s or 24s or because and and you then you've got your your apron angles are going to be angling. Yeah, there must be a minimum. There's I think there's a minimum. Is there a minimum on our apron width? I don't think there is.

Well, there's got to be a certain they've got there's a maximum. I don't know. There's a minimum right foot. There's probably an ADA slope on them. probably get that drawn together and bring it over. I'll bet you probably solve. Sorry, that just blew out because the twin homes aren't they only have like this small of the pictures you're talking about. I've actually seen those director it's it literally does this. What do you I'm not going to make an author comment. Yeah. I think you bring them bring them a drawing, let them look at the drawing and see if it and let them take the analysis and say, "Does this fit the ordinance?" Yes, it does. Okay. Then you're golden in your hand. Hold. Can you draw it for me? So,

huh? Can you draw it for me? So, just actually we can just get it solved tonight and we're done with it. He's not drawing a lot of time effort. Again, there's just there I'm sure there's a specific scale or slope on those splares which is going to determine what they need to be. I don't know, Tony. I'm see.

Yeah, let's see. You didn't even bring I know I approve. As long as long as you're split from the side as long as you're split from the sidewalk to the street, I think you're going to get approved by those people over there. And as long that first driveway is back far enough from the corner for So how wide does the expansion joint need to be in the middle of the driveway to pass the regulation. You'll have to take that up.

All right. Well, I appreciate that. That helps me a lot actually. So take get some drawings, bring them into them. If there's a problem, you'll come back. You'll come back to see us. Try to find a solution. Good solution. We'd appreciate it 45 minutes prior to this, but okay. Okay, we have a good fight. Now, I'm going to get on the board. We're going to make We can draw up an or we just need 200 linear feet to make your driveway match the way. There's got to be way all right. Well, appreciate it. Thank you. Y

By the way, my cousin just put they gave me the idea for this 50ft garage. I walked in. I'm like, "Duh." And he's got a 50 foot wide driveway. You can't cut a car between both sides of his. Thank you, sir. You and ma'am. Ma'am. All right. Let's move on to Let's move on to our next piece here.

Development variance request for Turtle Creek Highlands. Variance from municipal ordinance 9.07 flood plane damage prevention and variance from design standards to allow a temporary roadway. Teresa and engineering staff report please.

I'll kind of give you the quick version. This is a lot of engineering but basically this is for a development variance. It's for out in the Turtle Creek Highlands development. they are starting their phase two um development kind of what's all driving this is so fire code is once you get 30 homes in your development you have to have two accesses and that's just for safety and emergency reasons right now the there's only one access into the Turtle Creek development and that comes off of Mickelson Road there um they are fastly approaching their 30 homes there's 26 right now and we've got three or four building permits for space going. So, they're going to be at their 30 home requirement. So, they need to get a second access there. They have in their plans um identified a spot to hook up with Highway 38. They have gone to the state, got all their permits that has been all approved and okay. Unfortunately, at that spot, it is right in the floodway there. So obviously now we have to work with FEMA because anything developed within the floodway um you have to go through the Clomar requirements of FEMA um to meet all their regulations to show. So that's a process and I think it's generous if you're saying it's 6 to9 months it'll probably be a year before you can get through that whole process and whatnot. So we're we'll step away from that a minute. So during that whole process, we're asking or they have asked if they can do their second access as a temporary roadway. It'll come along the south side of their development go out to what is it? 465th

465th Street. We do um it is Township Road, but the city does we have a maintenance agreement with the township. So we take care of maintain that. So they'd be pushing the traffic or their second access, emergency access would be to that road and then they can go up to Highway 38. So that is the solution to buying time. Um we would want to go into an agreement with them um as far as we will allow this that you don't have to, you know, could be a gra. It doesn't have to be to our D design standards, but once the second access is put in and we'll put a time frame on it, that needs to be eliminated. You know, it's it's just a temp like a temporary access that is not going to be in there forever and and have traffic on it. Um so then getting back to then the roadway at Highway 38. So what they're looking at um they would like the variance from our flood plane damage prevention municipal ordinance basically because what our ordinance says is you cannot have any water top over the roadway there. the variance they are looking at. Subals has um similar flood plane ordinance but the in their ordinance they allow roadways, culverts, fields to be exempt from that and they will allow 18 in of talking over and they would like us to that's what the variance requests uses for is to allow us to allow that design standard versus the cities. So that's kind of in a nutshell, isn't it? You're you're much you're much better. He's all the technical stuff.

So the first the first variance request is uh for that Turtle Creek or it's actually Chilana Drive connection to Highway 38 a little bit uh east of Mickelson Road there looking for that um that final design. So paved roadway better all of that. Uh they would be installing culverts but in the major storm event uh their request is to uh allow it to be designed to allow 18 in of inundation at the curb line. uh in the major event. So it once it floods it is impassible until those waters recede. Um which that request does align with what Sou Falls allows. Um and then was going to get me. Yep. I did. Um

not just Sou Falls.

Um with even even with that 18 in inundation, that would still be regardless of of what is decided by the board still would need to go through the FEMA permitting process. would still need to show um no rise upstream um as part of those regulations. Um the only way to allow a rise upstream is to contact all of the effective property owners. All of those houses um could be as far up as into town up to fighter. We we don't know until it gets modeled, but contact those and I believe they all have to agree to allow that rise. Um that is why we typically go for no rise is because if you show FEMA no rise, you'll need to contact those owners to get that buy in. And then the second variance uh is for that temporary secondary access. Um the current design standards indicate that that has to be built to the city standards. So paved curbon gutter uh all of that. Uh understanding that this would be a temporary access. The request is uh to allow it to be graveled. Uh it would be a private roadway so it would be maintained by the developer. Uh would have checks in place to ensure it is still passable should there be an event that occurs. Um, and then as Teresa noted, put a time frame on that. Uh, basically give it say three years or whatever the terms are. And then, you know, if you don't have Turo Creek Drive or Shalona, the Shalona connection done, then there'd be some sort of penalty or process to go there. That's it's probably for them to decide.

Yeah, we would want to do an agreement to kind of put certain regulations on. So, so there is already there's already an agreement with the state of South Dakota to allow them access to Highway 38. Yes. Where is that access going to be at? It's in the map here. Oh, yep. And that's their access point and that's where they have got permitted from the state west of the gravel road. But you're going to have to put a call right there.

Evening. I'm Eric Willson. I'm the engineering. I am the engineer director in Turtle Creek. Um, yeah, Shaloma, which was is shown on there, but it goes out connects with Highway 38. DOT has granted us an access permit. That was two three years ago. I think it's we actually had to move it a little bit further from Mickelson so that it was at least 1,000 ft away required. The old access point was closer than that. So we agreed um we did our preliminary subdivision plans. That's where Chelona shows up accessing Highway 38 is approved. We're in our second phase of the development which then provides for that second access because we we understand the third unit requirement and that was going to be our second access. Well, back when this project started, u wasn't part of the deal. The core of engineers was and we could cross Turtle Creek under a nation with a nationwide permit. And typically uh the culverts underneath a collector type street like this that's not an arterial like Nicholson is um you would provide culverts for a minor storm by your flow and the major flow would over top the road which is allowed in not only Sou Falls but most of the surrounding areas don't happen carrots and tea doesn't really have a creek goes through it but I know they do Harrisburg and so it's Not and Brandon, it's not uncommon that you would over top a road, not in Ontario or or state highway or anything like that, but a collector street, which is what this is. Well, not these in the picture, but this being a regulated flood plane. And so, we have to go

through this Clonear process. We've already hired uh another engineering firm that specializes in flood modeling. And so they're going to do the modeling for the flow. And we're what we're asking for is a variance to allow us up to 18 in but not to exceed and whatever size pipe that is that's what we'll put in. Um I guess we're just not interested. The only way to not do it is put in a 100year type box cover similar to what's across Mickelson. That's a 100red-year culver that so that no water ever over tops Mickelson because Mickelson is an arterial. So that's what we're asking for is um allow us to over top the road with that major event and we'll provide engineering with the flow modeling that shows that in the major event there'll be no more than 18 in over the top of that road which will essentially render it impassible. until the flood water goes down.

So, I have a couple three questions for you, Eric. Okay. Yeah. This this first one's I'm going to throw at you and I'm going to throw at our city engineer at the same time. When did when did FEMA become in you said FEMA became involved in this regulated flood plane? Okay. When did when did it go from being core of engineers to FEMA?

That is a mystery to me. because it was all I always dealt with FEMA from the start of this. I'm also the the uh engineer record for South Main Edition up here. Turtle Creek passes that as well. I always dealt with core engineers. Um because I've never had to in my in my eight years being on the board, anytime we've had anything to do with the flood plane here, I've never heard core of engineers ever discussed on anything we've had to deal with flood plane, it's always been FEMA. Oh, it is now. So, well, that's what he's saying is ever since he's been here, it's been FEMA.

So, it changed at some point. I don't know. FEMA in 2009 went through all the communities throughout the US mapped all the flood planes. It mapped all the flood planes. So Harford never technically had a flood plane until 2009. And then FEMA come in and says, "Here's your flood plane." And that's where it is. And so the flood plane regulated the flood plane rules and whatever of ination and backing up and filling in flood plane. All of that came in 2009. Yep. That all came about that time. That's when we had to adopt an ordinance. Otherwise, we wouldn't get

I was trying to get a timeline of when this quote went from core of engineers to FEMA and it sounds like it was a really long time ago. Second question that I have for you, and I know you're not a flood engineer and you're not a hydraologist and all the rest of the things go, but when you look at the box covers that had to go underneath Mickelson to handle 100redyear flood, you put the road, you put this Salona down across there. How big a culvert do you think you're going to need to put in there to keep only 18 in going across that road? It'll be well what we proposed is a series of three covers. I don't know if you call them exactly what size they were.

I believe there was 60 in three is what's currently proposed in the plans. So if you went to 72in culverts is inundating the road an issue then I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. But where I guess where I'm asking is to not have that road subjected to water going over the top, disrupting traffic, all that kind of stuff. What's what's the difference in what it cost Sam to put this road in? What would be the difference there? Well, is it is it going to be hugely significant or a little bit? Because

and people have told me water's overflowed Western Avenue before. Waters overflowed main Avenue before. Waters overflowed Feder and any number of them down the line. Yeah. Because this is the first local street that's because because nobody because nobody nobody put in the culberts. They were all put in long before FEMA even identified as a flood plane.

So houses being held to a different standard. I asked I asked the question because Stockwell was our engineer record for the city when Mickelson went in and I'd look things over and I'm like a million dollars for box culprits. Like that's a lot of money for box culprits, right? And so I looked at Mitch, our engineer from Stockwell at the time, and I said, "Mitch, I'm just an old country boy. I'm not an engineer. I don't know any of this kind of stuff, but if I look 200 f feet upstream, the row of the old railroad bed has about five or six foot round cers. That's all that's coming underneath that railroad bed. So why in God's name do we have to spend a million dollars to put these big box covers in? Because last time I checked, I only have to have a pipe downstream as big as a pipe upstream. It seems like total overkill. was then explained to me that because of FEMA

and because of flood and and water flows that the that flood event over tops the railroad grade and as soon as it overts the railroad grade then downstream you have to be able to flow not just what's coming through the culvert but what everything that went over top of the railroad bed and I went okay now I understand this Um, so everything upstream is backed up because of the old railroad bed until it goes over the top. I live along Turtle Creek. I can tell you that when we've had high water events, the water comes up and I've seen it over I've supposedly that's a hundredyear flow. I've seen it over top of the railroad bed down on Sam's property north Mickelson. I've seen it over top that railroad bed three times in 10 years. So that's supposedly the hundred-year flood. Correct.

What? Yeah.

What those culverts were designed for was either the the 100red-year flood event or the 500year flood event. I don't know which one it was, but it's been over top of the railroad grade three times in 10 years since I've been here. I this goes completely off anything to do with this. What I wish would happen is I wish that some beavers or muskrats or somebody would dig holes in that railroad bed and it would wash a hole in it because if we washed a hole in that bed and it could free flow through there, we wouldn't over top fighter. We wouldn't over top Maine and we wouldn't have our parks flooded every time we have a high rain event because that railroad bed is just a wahei dam of Hartford and holds it back. So Sam, if you got anything you could do with wildlife down there, see if you can get somebody to poke a hole in that thing. Um, like I said, we're um it's not uncommon to have water overflow a road that's less than a collector or or a hybrid or a arterial. That's it's not uncommon to have and it's a temporary thing and it typically doesn't cause a lot of damage. They can be designed so that it doesn't cause a lot of damage and there it's a rarity that when water over tops the road like you said three times in 10 years. Well, it rained way more than three times in 10 years. Just not that much. So,

well, that's unless you're one of the houses along that road and your basement gets flooded and then that is saying on that mark is that's a big deal that supposedly that either 100year event or 500year event is when the water goes over top the o over top of the railroad bed. So, either the 100 or the 500 and three times in 10 years it's been over. So, that's a lot. My house has flooded twice in in 10 years and that's avenue. One time is a lot. It's two or three times a summer that that street goes underwater.

The your South Main just to the north of the development that you're the engineer of record on that. That's even more often that that goes underwater. So yeah, when the water goes down, they're typically not much for damage and you run back over. But what about the houses? Well, we're certainly not going to endanger any of the houses there. And that's why we're doing the doing hydraulic hydraulic studies that the houses nobody's going to build the house in the flood plane and whatever they're going to do there cannot cause the water to rise up out of the flood. Yeah. All of our even 18 inches over

that's the FEMA regulation for bar and they are doing that they've got to meet FEMA regard what the base elevation is according to FEMA yeah after follow all bets are off you're in trouble but they're still not don't want to follow hard that includes lots 22 23 and 24 everything about base creek or whatever it is. Creek right right here in the very top. This is this is your floodway. This this check line here. That's all right. That's your That's

floodway and flood plane, right? Regulatory floodway. Okay. Yeah, there are two those are two different things, too, by the way. Yeah, they got two different regulations. I guess yeah the the the temporary road is just that temporary. Um as soon as Jim is were able to build it we we had their intention of building it this summer. That doesn't sound like we get through payment quick. We're in a variance and it's

so and it will be chained off. It'll be emergency vehicles only. It's not going to be for the traveling public. So not just anybody from the subdivision can drive down the road. uh if they'll give a key to the fire department or they can cut the chain or whatever if there if it's ever needed for an emergency access. Will it be usable if it's 18 in under we're talking he's talking road. So the fire truck needs to get in here and it's raining drain and it's 18 in over the road. Can the fire truck get through canulence get through there?

Most likely drive through. What else are you going to do? I don't know if I'd want to drive through it in a car. Well, that's not going to have 18 in of water. Not the not the private access road. And there's obviously there's another way in get in on you don't have to use this as as an access way in that's either across Turtle Creek or the interstate is on the other side of us and then it was Stumpy's property I think to the west and that's been the city. Yeah. Should be um

we're trying to solve a problem. So, aren't we here's the statement you just made about chain and padlock on the temporary road, right? Um, I would absolutely Knox Nicks and vote against that in a heartbeat. Yeah. If we're giving if this road is going in to give emergency access to that development and the reason you have two access points is in case the other access point is blocked for whatever reason, right?

Um you can't give out enough keys to have whoever's responding to the emergency access to that temporary road. I mean, we have half a dozen sheriff's deputies. that service this community. If you chain if you chain that off and a sheriff's deputy needs to respond to something out there and he needs to use that emergency access point, he's going to have to have the key to get in or drive through the field. If if we're going to give if we're going to give that temporary road, that temporary road's got to be open and access to the public. Did I miss this? But why did we wait till we had 26 units built before we thought about the second access?

Didn't require it to. Well, they thought about it and I know that they planned to build it, but then they realized the long FEMA process. I know, but if they just started building it at 15 houses, then I hear you. I guess I guess I'm a planner. I guess I'm a planner. My sister would be so proud. Okay. What's our engineer think about the number one on our variances? Is that the inundation? Our recommend our recommendation is to not allow the roadway to be inundated. Uh as noted in there, um

if flooding were to occur, you know, that roadway is going to have a decreased life. There's going to be, you know, debris going up at the water in that subs soil. You run the risk of erosion, especially at 18 in deep. That's, you know, the deeper you go, the quicker the water starts to run. Um, leading to some erosion there. Um, you know, it was it was mentioned, uh, Western Avenue main and fighter. You know, we just, as you're all aware, just finished the first phase of Western Avenue. You know, as we look towards the second one, I don't know how many years down the road, we would design that road to convey the 100red-year event. Um, I understand it is an arterial roadway. Yeah.

Right. Uh, but I'd like to believe if if and when Maine and Fighter are redone, we would look at conveying those events as well because you don't want to hamstring a community to to do crossings of a creek. Um, based on what we had discussed with Craig um he said when Turtle Creek floods it usually stays high for, you know, quite some time. It's not in and out based on uh what you've seen. So, you know, we those roads were were built before these design standards had gone in place before 2009. I'd anticipate where the flood plane regulations came into effect. So, um looking back to some some forward thinking requests, you know, that's that's what we're trying to do here is is um not make the same mistakes of the past. So,

we get we get two two rises on Turtle Creek. When we have a heavy rain event or any rain event, the first the first rise is right during storm or right after storm when all of the storm because every storm sewer basically every storm sewer in the city ends up in Turtle Creek except for Duck Trail. That's the only that's the only stu storm sewer in town I know of that doesn't end up dumping into Turtle Creek. So when all the streets wash out, Turtle Creek comes up and then it goes back down and then anywhere from 6 to 12 hours later, it comes back and depending on the rainfall event, it comes back with you in in really big time because it's draining this entire watershed to the north and it takes time for that watershed rain to get down here. I've grown living next to their that creek for 10 years. I can tell all my farmer friends up north how much rain they got just by seeing how far up the creek goes.

Yeah. I don't know why we just wouldn't be proactive when you're designing something and just

so the point of the inundation, I think in a heavy rain event, we're going to see it's not going to be a quick and it's done. From my experience living next to that creek, it's going to be a quick big up and then it's going to go back down and then it's going to come back up and then it's going to inundate it over a period a longer period of time on the second rise because we always see two rises on that creek. And if we're talking 100redyear flood events, I can see that road being underwater for 12 to 24 hours depend depending on what you're going to be able to flow through there and get that water back down. And keeping in mind the railroad beds only got a 6ft culvert. So as long as you can flow six six foot culverts worth of water through there until it goes over the top of the railroad bed, that's all the water you got to get rid of down there. So it it again my little farmer boy mind tries to wrap around what exactly you're dealing with and how much water you're really going to have on a regular basis. And on a regular basis I think you're only going to see that 6ft culverts worth of water basically coming down there and whatever comes out of Turtle Creek subdivision itself because you're all of those are dumping in ahead of where that street would be. When we get the hundredyear event where it over tops the railroad bed, then it's a whole different world of water you're coming down there. So again, I'm trying to put in my mind how many how often are you actually going to see that road get underwater. The other aspect of it too is if you do allow 18 in of water over the road while still maintaining that no rise, right, that road is essentially lowered. So, it's going to take a lesser event to over top that road as well.

So, that's that's another action to item to consider. So, that's right, J. You can't you can't cause rise and you know that people are not going to get out and walk across, see how deep the water is before they try to drive it and then they're close. I I mean, if anything, I hope they stay in their car if it's that deep regardless of where I've seen it in Texas. So they've seen I say in in my mind and I understand from engineering and civil and damage that could happen to it.

I'm just trying to put into my mind being I say living next to the creek and watching it all the time and seeing things going and knowing what we have for blockade downstream and a six and I don't know what size that pipe is that's underneath. Does does anybody know what size that pipe is that's underneath the railroad bed north of Mickelson? up north of Yeah. I don't It's on your ground there. Well, they took it out. No, they didn't. Well, the one So, we had an approach coming from 38 into the field. Yep. Yep. Yep. They when we were working with the DOT to get our new access permit, they asked us to move it to the east. No, no, I'm talking north of Mickelson.

No. And that's what I'm saying. But we we actually had a culvert out there and that was a fuel approach, right? And they asked me if we could take it out since we were going to move it down to 9 950. I think where it was. I said, "Yeah, go ahead." But they say where it's in my mind here is that culberts that's north of Mickelson underneath the old railroad bed just east of Jacobs. That's your ground there, too. That's a piece of railroad bed I'd love to see wash out because

it would be it would be great for the city because every time that that backs up when it backs up to over top that it backs everything up and floods all of Turtle Creek Park. Everything. There's a ton of cleanup every time. And I think if that was gone, you could just free flow this flood water on through. But So I say I'm trying in my mind, how many times is that road really going to get underneath water? I don't think it's going to be underwater that very often. Especially if you're designed especially if you're designed to handle the 100red-year flood event. If you're designed to handle the 100red-year flood event with 18 in of inundation to the road, that's going to require an over top of the railroad bed, existing railroad bed up north. In order to get that much water coming down there and back up to get over top the road, you're never going to get that much water coming through the existing culvert in that railroad bed because I think it's probably a six-footer. So to your point, Tony, they have for the five to convey the five-year event, they have three five foot coververts proposed.

Okay. And you're saying that the major event over tops a single culvert, right? So if the 5-year event requires three 5ft culverts, that 6ft cover in the railroad bed probably gets overtopped far more frequently than you realize.

Yeah. The railroad bed has only been over top three times in the time that I've been here. That's the only time I've ever seen the water go over top. And Michael, I'll tell you why. I pay really close attention to it. Because when Mitch told me that that's why we needed the big box covers, I said, "Well, here's the deal. You guys did the engineering to get our lot out of the flood plane. So you have all the elevations in your files and you just did the survey here to know that's how big those culvers needed to be. So you got the elevations on that railroad grade. I I want to know what the difference is. There's 18 in difference between the elevation at the top of the railroad grade and the lowest point in my backyard. So when Turtle Creek starts coming up and starts creeping up towards my backyard, the first thing I do is drive down and check the railroad bed and see if it's going over the top yet. And there's three times that I've drove down. It was coming over the top and the water was just creeping into my backyard. I told my wife, "Don't worry, honey, because it's going over top of the railroad bed now. We got a lot of room to work with now." It came up quick until we get there. So, I mean, it's have personal experience going there. It's It's not gone over top that railroad very often. As far as engineering goes, is there something to consider in between the two that you're looking at a five-year flood design and then a 100redyear flood design?

Uh, you know, some other communities um that that we work in do have their standards set to convey the 10-year event. That one's pretty typical. That's typically called a minor storm. Uh Hartfords is defined as the 5year event. Some do the 10 year. um as when you get into like storm water pond design kind of different subject but still related. Some municipalities will make you check the both the 25 and 50y year just to make sure all stages are you know meeting the requirements. However, for uh you know infrastructure like this typic storm sewer conveyance that type of thing typically is the you know the major event spec uh especially for FEMA um and then for you know your roadway piping your storm sewer that is typically sized for five years. So

okay so and the 18 in allowing a variance to allow the 18 in that's what storm event 5ear storm event 10ear storm event 100ear storm event do the hydraulic study so that we know how much water needs to pass so that there would there would we would not exceed 18 in and whatever size those colors need to be will be more I'm not asking What size culverts? I'm not asking what size culverts right now because I don't think anybody knows the answer to that. Well, that's what I'm asking supposed to tell us.

I'm asking are you asking for 18 in on a minor 5year storm event on a minor 10-year storm event on a minor 25-year storm event? What are you asking for the 18 in allowance on

the 100-year event? that when you get a 100-year event that the water would not exceed 18 inches. That's what we need to do and we need to prove that hydraulically with a study on a flow study that this is how much water is going to come down in the 100year event. And you got to be able to pass it over the road and through the culvers and not exceed 18 in deep. And there'll be and and our our design that we submitted show the C there's three culvers but then the road on the other side of the culvers dips down and then goes back up to allow the water to overflow the road. Okay. So you

not where the culverts are but in a different location. Okay. So you you submitted a plan that shows the roadway and a dip and three culberts. Yes. And what what does that plan design for? what the fiveyear is that the plan that you guys studied? I just have a hard time voting against our paid for engineers that say no don't do this.

So yeah, the plan we have received uh as you know five sorry the three five foot culverts to convey the five-year event it is indicated on the plans that the intent is to over top the road in the 100red-year event. Um I the analysis in the plans is is a conveyance. It's not a FEMA level model. It is, you know, looking at online resources, I believe. Did you use stream stats, Eric, or some some publicly available data to determine the flow rate in the creek during that event and then utilizing the pipe characteristics? Um, to ensure that flow is con conveyed. We used the FEMA, okay,

flow study that came under Mickelson and then we added our phase one development to that and we conveyed the the five-year through the pipes and then between the 5-year and whatever the storm was over the road. And what we're saying is we're proposing to do a a hydraology study that shows that the pipes and the flow over the road will not exceed 18 in and it won't cause a rise upstream. Well, what was the damage to the I mean obviously you can you can run the road, you can flood it and then things dry out after after a while, but having that road bed saturated and what does that do for longevity once this gets turned over to the city and and the city maintains that? Certainly depending on I mean depending on the back fill soils you can see uh you know a significant amount of swell understanding that the immediate you know say within two feet of that surface will be engineered material but the the back fill around the pipes and of that burn is likely just insitue material that may be subject to swelling. So as that water comes and goes it may swell and cause some bumpiness cause some potholes. Um similarly um you may remember I think it was 2019 when we got all that early spring um rain everything was frozen nothing was getting into the ground um you you run the risk of of that semi ice dams um and then similarly you know you get all that water in the ground you get a cold night that's going to freeze that's going to frost he and that's going to you know further accelerate the road uh deterioration so that's that's the risk here with a lot of time

consideration city cost down the road if we're

well certainly I mean the you know the developer comes in installs the road and say within a year or two of it being installed it's it's accepted by the city and that any damage that occurs then is a city cost right but when we're looking at hundredyear events or even five or 10 year events that are over topping roads or the um old bed culvert you know that's just increasing the chances for that deterioration to occur and incurring costs to the Well, again, I think if if I was if I was going to say, okay, we can let water go over top of the road and give the variance, I would want nothing less than 100year flood. They have to be able to flow 100 the 100year not fivey year not 25 year but 100year flood

and that's what you get hooked at right the 100year flood that our yeah that is our recommendation is well not to over top the road but to convey it in the pipes or cohorts or whatever it may be under the road and that's the city ordinance correct so that that's our ordinance so it's essentially act of god that the road is impassible I would I would actually I mean I would consider saying us to the that inundating up to 18 in on the 100year flood on the 100year flow because I don't think that's going to be very often that it's going to go over top but too you're looking at 18 in over but if we go right not just

but if we don't go at least 100 say if we go five years you got to be able to flow a fiveyear minor storm event and that can happen twice in a year that can happen two or three times times a year. We don't want that road going underwater two or three or four times a year.

That's why I asked about is there a standard of 10 or 25 year, not just the five or the 100? Is there something in the middle there that would make sense? But yeah, and I guess depending on how much of a dip you're putting there to flow 18 in of water across it. Yes. 100 years sounds like you got to put in the same box covers that underneath Mickelson. But as soon as you put it as soon as you have a dip in that roadway that allows water to go across, that makes up for a box culvert, the amount of flow that can go over that road makes up for the size of the culvert or size of the box in a hurry. Plus, we're doing the variance, which is asking the same questions we just did with the last guy. And it's

right, I'm not seeing any of the variance answers questions being answered. So, so just to clarify, this isn't a zoning variance, correct? That's not the same criteria. Yes, but you gave us You did give us the criteria. You're right. This is a municipal ordinance area. So, they don't You did give me the criteria somewhere in here. Yeah. Yeah. Somewhere in here. We play in these 42 pages. I know I gave you a lot. I read it somewhere. We played We play a different game on this very different game. And just to be clear, we're It is for the 100 year advent. Yeah, we're saying that as long as it's a 100redyear event or less, there will not be more than

But your your original design that you submitted to ISG was for 5year. Exactly. Well, we we submitted a fiveyear for the culprits and then anything above a 5year was going on the road, right? And they said, well, FEMA's got to get into this and you got to prove that it's a no. So kind of switched gears and said, "Okay, we will provide you with the hydraulic study and the modeling that proves that in the 100-year event that the culverts and the road will take the 100 year and below and it won't be more than 18 in deep." That's what the model is going to show.

I'm I'm following you there. Okay. The other thing to consider is while that road is inundated, it's impassible. And with this current phase and I believe the next phase, that still leaves us with one access point, right? Be like just about every other community in this area. What I hear what I hear is that I mean the 100 years is 18 in but it could be that there's six or eight inches of water going over that if the 5year flood is all the culvers will handle. So I mean there's a big gap

going between the fiveyear and the 100year. There could be water over topping the road but it won't be more than 18 in deep. It could be 6 in. And you guys haven't analyzed that. That is that is on the designer saying that roads have to look at it first and give us the go. I'm not an engineer and I'm not I don't want to say but he has looked at this and he

I would love I would love for engineers to show me the hydraulic study approaching the 100year because again the old the old farm boy of me says I got one culvert underneath that roaded up there it can only put so much water through that until it goes over top that roaded over top the roaded is a hundredyear flow but between below What? Until it goes over top of the road bed, that old railroad roaded. There's only the wa only water that's getting there is coming through that one culbert that's underneath it. But you said you've seen it happen three times. I've seen it happen three times. In 10 years, what's that? You're not 100 years. I'm close to 100, but you're not.

Three Three times in 10 years, I've seen it over top of the railroad bed. So that's much more common than a 100 year event. Well, event

the hundred-year event is it's somewhere in here when it goes over top the railroad bed. Okay. Mitch told me the reason that the culverts are built that way is because the 100red-year flow event over tops the railroad bed. Okay. I don't know if that's 50% of the hundredyear, 75% of the hundredyear, or 98% of the hundredyear, but when it goes over top, then we're fully free flowing. So that gives you the hundred-year event. My curiosity is when when it goes over top the roaded, what's what's that flow? What's that flow on the hydraulic study before it goes over top the roaded? Because it's only been three times in 10 years. If the flow rate is extremely low up until it goes over top of that, then our opportunity to flood the road to inundate the road downstream is a whole lot less than we think it is. If you're designing if you're designing for a 100redyear flow, I mean, I'm interested to hear that a 5year flow required three 5 foot three 5ft pipes underneath that road because I don't know how you get that much water there. So, I I know that it puts I know that this puts things back just a little bit in your plan and getting going with FEMA because I'm sure you've got to have something from us to be able to put into going to FEMA. You can't just go to FEMA and then come back to us. But I would like I would like engineering to give us like a graduated going up between it never rains, which is what's going on now, and a 100redyear flow. There's got to be models out there that'll tell us percentages of that and let us know what the flow rates are that

need to be put through and how often we think we're going to get unend that road underwater downstream because if it takes a pretty good strong event to even think about it going over the road and it's the 100red-year event and the 100red-year event requires the whole railroad grade to be covered with water before it's going down there. I've never seen that. the east side for about 10 feet gets water going over top. That's the most I've ever seen over top of it. So there's some point there where that hundredyear flow is and I don't know what that flow is. I don't either, but I just know I'm not going to vote for it until our engineers say yes. Me neither.

Yep. That would be my other concern is if we find out this thing's flooded, you know, on a fiveyear rate of that and then you say five or 10 years down the road, the city decides that this thing gets inundated and then the city wants to rebuild that to whatever standard. Now that becomes a taxpayer expense after the city's assumed responsibility for that, right? Yeah. is Michael is that is that modeling that you guys can do or can come up with to help Mark and Sam just bring that information to us say here's here's what we're modeling and seeing.

So we had to do a clo for the bike trail that was going to go between main and bit typically makes you go several stations upstream and downstream to ensure that there's no effects. I can look through that to see if we have that information downstream because we we had model background got approval for that for no rise. So um I'll check to see if that we have that information so that you can see you know when it over tops the railroad what what frequency storm you know is that considered and then determine flows from there. And I say, yeah, it's it's what what flow takes it over top of the railroad bed in relation to this 5 10 15 20 100year floods and how much it has to be there. Cuz I think I think that's a piece for us to look at here. If it's if the whole railroad beds got to have water running over the top of it to be 100year flood event and downstream these culverts are built in there to give a 100redyear flow with 18 in 18inch over topping. But we have confidence in the fact looking that it's not going to over top very often at all then it's not a bad thing. But if we're going to get overtopped on a regular basis, it's a bad thing. And until we have some modeling that tells us what water is actually coming through there and what what it's going to take to do it. So per per Mark's, you know, uh note earlier, 10 five 10 years down the road, we decide we want to upsize those because it's neating too much at the taxpayer cost, right? Admittedly, the the colder things are the more a significant portion of the cost of that crossing, right? Fixing a road, should it heave, you know, frost, heave, swell, whatever it may be, that's minor,

not not a cost that the city wants to bear, but that is a minor cost. That is one of the reasons why we are advocating to not allow it to over top is because we don't want to get 10 years down the road and just say this is just unacceptable or have a new PNC or a new council and like this is ridiculous. Why? Why would Why did these guys let this go through? Because so they approve this. Yep. Well, this is an ordinance variant. So, it has to go to the council after us. Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah. I say whatever you guys recommend or what it's ultimately going to go to. Yeah. Right. Councel or final approval.

I would be a lot better recommending if I knew the engineers approved it. So, you want to take a vote on the first one? I still don't, you know, ju just to just to save some money. I still would heir on the side of upsizing. I just, you know, It's important just like you talked about when they redid all of Colton Road. Apparently the covert is above where the water is. So it will never drain out of my creek ever. And they did all that work. How sad is that? Yep. He did all that work. Still no draination. The culvert's 18. The culver's 18 inches above above the drain level. Come on. Above the bottom of the creek.

So that's a big deal. So, do we want to table this until the next meeting? See what engineering has if they've got some more information that we can bring to you. Not saying that I have it, but see if we can have some kind of I answers to your question. We do this in two parts. One for the temporary. There's two different variances here. So, we're we're talking about the That's true. I mean, you could do that. We're talking about the road getting covered up by water. We'll get to the temporary access in a little bit. Mark, right? Yeah. I just want to know. Yeah. There's two words two separate directions. You want Is is there a pro is there a hardship problem? Can you put those numbers together before us next meeting which will be two weeks?

I'll have to check to see what we have currently available. Let us know. FEMA keeps that information close to your if you're delayed out a couple of weeks by us deciding where we want to go before you start getting things. I mean, obviously, you can start putting things together for FEMA beforehand. Is a couple weeks delay going to be any problem? You'd be able to set up the existing model and verify all that, right, Eric? Yeah, I don't see that as a problem. Yeah, we still didn't get building.

Well, if when when we get when we take care of the second part of this, you'll know whether you're getting building permits. This ain't going to get you any building permits or even if we approve it tonight cuz you ain't putting a road in tomorrow, Mark. Yeah, I do know him, too. I guess that's why I'm messing up. I thought that might be a lot of times that's the case. So, I make a motion to table the first I'm not a politician.

U application for variance till further information is provided by our engineers as requested by the committee meeting. Okay. Do you have a second? I will second that. All right, we have a motion and a second to table action on variance number one. That will put us off to the next meeting hopefully with more information and go from there. Any further discussion? Actually, motion table is not discussed is not open for discussion. I'm sorry. Go straight to vote.

I'm sounding like Ardan Jones and not remembering which way this goes. So we'll go to vote. Miles two table. No. Espinosa. No. Coodle. Yes. Graham. Yes. Anderson. No. Seems like it's three to three, huh? Tony vote. Then I get to do the Tony vote. And I'm going to vote yes to table. Uh. Now, let's talk let's talk a little bit more about the second variance allowing the temporary street.

So, I just seems more straightforward. Well, I was going to say, so I have it straight. They're going to build a gravel road. They're going to maintain it. They're going to plow the snow on it. No, she said we were going to maintain. The city was going to No, I I said we maintain 465th, which we do now. The township. No, this temporary one building. And is this is the temporary that you're talking about putting in is that that's nowhere that's not like Turtle Creek extended all the way over to 460. Show on the on the map. It's right on It was shown on the south part of the It's a keyh up on top. Oh, it's back here.

Oh, okay. Sorry. I was wonder. So that where you're going to put that gravel road in will turn into a street at some point in time. Yes. As it goes along. Yes. Okay. So, they're going to put in a gravel street. Same same place that the real street's going to go at some point in time. At some point. They're going to degrade it. They're going to maintain it. They're going to plow the snow on it. The city has no involvement whatsoever on that temporary route. Yeah. It's just their way to get in and out providing that second emergency. Providing second time frame. Yeah. You said you were going to make a time frame of temporary. How many years?

Temporary. Temporary is So that is a concern that I have is temporary is a openended. Yep. What is the definition of temporary on it? But it we don't want to see it here 10 years down the road and being used and whatnot. It's to get them through the approval process for the connection at Highway 30. Yeah. As soon as we would be able to build Chalona, it's like that street needs to go away. See, and you just you want to maintain it and all that stuff, right? I mean, we have the second way in, we don't need it, right? Right. So, it's just a matter of how long it takes us to for us and or FEMA to get their stuff together. So, we don't

exactly tell us it's at least 6 to n months to get through at least at least I would say a year just my built this year. So, what happens if FEMA doesn't give you hope to build it next What happens if FEMA doesn't give them permission to put that road in or that in then they'll have to make their design FEMA's regulations have to change approved to FEMA that we can do and that's the only way they'll approve it. Right. They can they can get approved to put the road in. They just got to be able to flow the water to make FEMA.

How much they got to do to build the road? I mean, you can put you can put a brand new bridge across the Mississippi River as long as you show you're not going to back up the river. Yeah. It's just how much do they got to do to get it to So, can we put like a year and a half time frame on it? Well, you could you could or you could do from from today or um

a thought a thought a thought that came to my mind is that they put in the temporary road. They have 12 months from FEMA approval before that road needs to be closed. shut off, whatever, however you want to be or made permanent. So, if it takes if it takes a year and a half for FEMA to get things approved, we're not sitting here discussing extending out the temporary because FEMA didn't get stuff put together. But yeah, we don't say there's a shutdown, you know, 12 months.

12 months. I mean, if if FEMA if FEMA doesn't approve it until October of some year, you got 12 months. You've got the whole next summer to get the road built. If FEMA approves it in April of a year, I mean, you're you're still into that time frame. You got 12 months to get a road built in. And I'm I would be fairly well convinced that the design work on that road would be complete because everything's going to be done to send to FEMA and whatever gets approved by FEMA that design work for the roads already got to be done. Is that a fair statement, Eric? That's fair because we're going to be working with with your engineers here. I think that's a

we design of that road so that it would work would be have to be done so that people would get a purpose. Yeah. The design essentially can be done. It would just be let a contract and get a contractor and do the work.

Um good point Ke made me made me a little Washington politician note here on this too. um because I don't want I don't want to have that that going. Um so 12 12 months and either we go another another side of that is for whatever reason FEMA approval hasn't come. We we as a city on the front side of it, we as a city need to be kept in the loop and confirmed that the application has been submitted to FEMA. So we as within the municipality get notice of yes, all applications go to FEMA and then we get a copy of any approval or denial letters as well because they CC the city on all that. FEMA does that. So

yeah, what I what I propose on timeline for the temporary is you have 12 months to have your application into FEMA and you have 12 months after FEMA approval or denial or or deny. Well, you have to be approved by FEMA within 12 months of the application going in. you you need to be approved or not, excuse me, 12 months from when you're approved to construct to to have the road constructed and take out the temporary road

is and and I'm going to back out of this. I'm going to back out of that for a second. Can you have can you have an application to FEMA in six months? I don't know if we need to require them to take out the temporary rule because I'm sure they're going to want to use all that gravel and whatnot for future. Well, you haven't you haven't heard the end. You haven't heard the last part. Sorry, I'm just interrupting. Sorry. Can Can you get Can you have that application to FEMA in 6 months?

I sure hope so. I hope the guys the study's already been done. Okay. So, they just got to put the numbers up this. So, we it is our goal to expedate this just as quickly as possible. And the problem with FEMA is is the application of right be put in way before that. But then there's back and forth and every time FEMA comes back with comments. They have another like six months to respond to us once we submit. Well, that you can't control. We're fine with that. But we want to make sure you guys are staying. They looked at it. So it goes in their queue out that many more days. Every time they looked at it. So may maybe go back and you could probably back me up on this. They get another six months.

I'm kind of kind of fleshing this out, guys. So just bear with me here. Maybe rather than 6 months or 12 months, it's your application has to be submitted by January 1st, 2027. So you got till January 1st to get your application to FEMA. And then on on the other way before that and the and the and the backside of that is from date of approval from FEMA you have 12 months to have this road in and this become your access. So on the on the B from approval day on a permanent basis. This this Shalona road needs to be in that becomes

I thought you were talking about emergency access. No, the emergency access if we if we'd go with this they could start building that tomorrow. Yeah. Okay. But Colona Salona Salona

has to be in and accessible within 12 months of FEMA approval. Failure to failure to follow either of those deadlines. Um you don't get any occupancy permits on any existing building that's going in. So you would you would be allowed this this emergency access would allow you to get building permits because you have two modes of access. But if you don't have this road in by that drop dead date of 12 months after FEMA, I don't care if you've got a 100 houses under construction down there. Paul doesn't get to give an occupancy permit on a single house until the roads in. that allows you to get building permits, allows you to sell lots, allows you to build things out, and it's pretty much in your hands at the very end. We're giving you everything, but we got we got to have we need to have something there as a hard stop to say. That road's got to be in by this date. Sam, does that sound fair?

It it does. I I've never had to deal with things before. Um these guys are kind of steering, but that that timeline is that timeline is eliminating FEMA. Yeah. Because it's it's a timeline deadline on the front side is for your engineer to get the application to FEMA. And the other side of that is it's 12 months from when you get approved by FEMA. That's fair. That's fair. And we're giving FEMA all the time that they want to mess back and forth on it.

Okay. But and I know that at some point in time you're going to get approved by FEMA after you argue back and forth because you you want that road. Oh yeah. That's that's my suggestion guys for timelines and how it goes. I like throw it back to the board. Real quick, Tony, Eric, your your plan for that would just be basically constructed from Turtle Creek Drive to the highway. assuming that Turtle Creek Drive and South would be constructed prior to it. Correct.

Exactly. I I would like you know and this won't affect you but our development engineering plans have been submitted and are contingent on approval of this little piece of Chalona and it's like I'd like to exclude that from the D get the D's built or approved so we can continue building. Yeah. And the reason I asked is I just want to make sure 12 months is adequate time. If it was the full phase 2, that probably gets a little tight depending on time of year. But if it's just from Turtle Creek Drive to the highway, you're confident that 12 months is even. Okay. You'll build all the rest of the street. I just I just want to make sure

we want to move on our phase two. That makes sense. maintenance agreement should be put that'll be put in place that they have to maintain. Say that. Well, that's part of Yes. Um, no, I had some Oh, sorry. The other and we we brought this this came up in the conversation earlier. The other piece is um I prefer to see this temporary access open all the time. Cuz a lot of beer drinking up on that hill. That was my only concern.

It was what? Well, your concern was what? Your what's that? Your concern was what? I didn't hear the kids. We'll try to keep Brad under control. Yeah. Yeah, I know you engaged in every young one. Um I know I I I just have the concern of if we have some type of emergency event down there

that people are emergency responders are not going to be able to get through that gate. So, and I think what Eric was thinking, um, you know, the other thing is it's like for service, you know, we got those moves that go across. Um, they're crash gates, too. And I don't think the kids want to wreck their car. So if it was truly an emergency like that, well the other thought was there's family events down there

and dead on the road. Now all of a sudden we're going to start running, you know, now they got traffic. It's like should emergency home. Well, when that street is built out as a street, do you want to ask the fire department what they recommend? When when that when that when that street is built out as a street and all the way along the interstate is nothing but multifamily housing, then people live down at the end of that dead end road ain't going to be happy then either. I can't do that. I mean, let's be let's be real. That's going to take time. But this is like night and day. like tomorrow

where you guys you guys using that south side as being your second access point. I see very little if any regular traffic going down that street with all gravel with gravel all the way out plus gravel all the way down the township road. If I if I live anywhere in this development, I'm headed up Turtle Creek Drive and hitting Mickelson and getting out of here on the tar. I don't think you're going to see and I could be absolutely wrong. Everybody may figure out that's a really quick shortcut to get there.

We can if it turns into a problem, we could always put grass if it is. I I my only thought was kids. Yeah. Like I say, my my thought Sam is let's just say that down here at Turtle Creek Circle, we've got house fire,

right? and Hartford responds to the house fire and they now have got their hoses and everything across Turtle Creek Drive and this house fire is more than just a little grill fire out back and they call Mutual aid and Humboldt comes over. Humboldt's going to come down 38 and they tell him, "Hey, you can't come in on Turtle Creek Drive because we've got hoses across it." Does Humboldt have keys to open up the open up the chain link over here to get out if there is an emergency or you know multiple aid comes from Sou Falls. I mean somebody a surrounding department comes and mutual aid down there.

If they're if they're calling mutual aid, they've got a they've got a street blocked up already for you know it says private drive trespassers will be prosecuted. What's it called? Private driver trespassors will be prosecuted. We'll put the sign up. I think the signs if you're going to put that sign up anybody. No. Prosecutors will be prosecutors prosecutors will be shot. Well, that's up to you. Mr. Asam's on the hill and he's cited in. It works. Continue your thoughts. to put that into a motion. Yeah.

I'm gonna make a motion with the things that Tony Thank you, Brad. Outlined in there. Um, so you do this time frames for the one year after FEMA approval with the January 1st, 2027 to get approval from FEMA and then 12 months after that to get the last part of whatever the submitted by January 1st. Yeah. application submitted and then 12 months after FEMA approval to get that piece of that road done. Um, and temporary access road is temporary access road would be granted. I think I got that.

If not, it's all on video. I will second that. Did you were you putting in your motion about keeping it open? Not locked. Not keep it open. Um I would and then I said the engineer recommended that necessary maintenance agreements should be put into place. Yeah. We'll pass this motion. We will actually have the city attorney though draft up an agreement with this outline that city and sign. Okay.

Um I'm going to ask you for a friendly amendment to your motion. remove the access part from that motion. And the reason that I'm reason I'm asking for that, we're going to ask you guys to keep it open, but if for some reason there's issues that arise, I want I want it to be left open-ended that you contact Tracer, the city, and say, "We need to do something different here because of" and it allows them to be able to make a decision right up without having to be against this motion or variance. Okay, good. So, the request is please keep it open, but if there's issues, take it to staff and come to resolution on the issues.

I second everything that Brad just said. Perfect. We have a motion and a second to approve the variance for temporary gravel road application in by January 1st, 2027. the permanent shalona to be built within 12 months of FEMA approval. Amen. Amen. Amen. Any further discussion? We adding in a piece of building permits or Oh, that's the building permits.

Oh, yeah. I forgot that part, Miles. That would that would if I didn't want to include it. Well, if you don't want to if you don't want to include it as a friendly amendment, then I would ask Mr. Anderson to make the amendment to the motion if you would like to. I can I can include it. I forgot that building permit because you're allowed to make a friendly amendment to your motion yourself. Yes, I'll make an amendment to my motion to add the octric. Yes. Thank you, Mark. Mark, any further discussion? We'll vote. Anderson, yes. Graham, yes. Kudel,

yes. Espinosa, yes. Miles, yes. Randall, sure. Motion carries. Variance, that variance approved. So in case anyone was wondering and maybe some of you know Jalona, Kiha, Tortuga, they're all names of turtles in different languages. How did you know that? I didn't know that. I pay attention Sam for when you when you were here with the original with the original plan design and turtles are in most cultures. Did you know that?

We we Yes. Except when they're crossing the road painted street to I make a motion to actually agenda before you can do that wouldn't be so basically the new with us if you want to push us into next meeting since it's been pretty late tonight. I mean the these are all discussion items. Um reviewing the international building codes,

we got to still review the significant changes for the residential codes that are are going to have us do next meeting. We can do both of them at next meeting and then in June look at passing the ordinances, but that's up to you guys. Can I make a motion to table the next two items to next meeting? next three items to the next meeting to the next meeting correctly would be postponing them to the next meeting but okay it's 9:15 I didn't speak properly after within a meeting postpone is to meeting in the future I motion to do what you guys just told me to say did I hear a second it's past my bedtime did I hear did I hear a second second was going to die for lack of second all in favor Amen Amen.

Opposed. You can stay long. Mr. Christensen, what do you got for us? Oh. Um, we already closed. No, we didn't adjourn. We just we just postponed to the next meeting. Dealing with the usual parking on grass, pet licenses, inoperable vehicles, rubbish, and junk, and then I'm taking another shot at the trailer court, mobile park. Sorry. You said you were taking another shot at the for trying to My goal is to try to bring the park up to the same standards as the rest of the town.

All right. I took a picture of that dumpster today in front of the middle school. Come on. Maybe just a bigger dumpster. Novak says that's all the bigger one they need. Look at the dumpster in front of the school. All right. Come on. It's got trash four feet out the top. I don't know how. That's the last day of school. Everybody's getting That dump That dumpster needs This was the one in that apartment. That dumpster needs to go back behind that apartment out on the street. Could it go on the side of where those garages are the west side?

I guess then those people have to look have any regulations of where to place them. So I don't know how we have any teeth that I guess. I I totally agree with you guys. It should go. For one thing, it's it's red. It's a red dumpster. That's cuz it's from Novak on the front yard. And then there's pink trash bags. I mean, it looked like a trash party. I totally agree. But like I said, I literally stopped to take a picture of it this time. So, we can't we don't have any in our regulations to do anything about where you put your dumpster. We have no regulations in the dumpster locations. Yeah. So, I can leave my garbage can part of a conditional use. It's bad. So I can leave my garbage can sit out by the street all the time.

Now that's on City Boulevard. Okay. What? It's in front. Is it on the boulevard area? I believe it is. Yeah. Can we show it to you? Yeah. I don't Can I leave Can I leave my garbage can sit at the end of my driveway? Not permanently. It does look like Yes, it is. That's so bad. So, we could have that one move back. Not saying that we can make it move it to their backside, but we have to a little bit.

I need to follow up to the owner. I did re He did reach out to city hall. He never reached out to me directly, but he did reach out to city hall with Jenny and he said he's having trouble finding somebody suitable to finding somebody to do that small of a job for concrete. So, I need to follow up with him to I can get him a list looking at doing concrete. Is that what you're saying? I didn't realize that. How many How many around there? And if he's going to do it around the side would be better than on Second Street.

The building was designed for that dumpster to be on the west side of the on the northwest corner of that building. The design of that whole place is there's a place for that dumpster to be on the northwest corner of the building and that's where it used to be. I'm going to tell you the reason it went out front is because he changed garbage haulers and Novak told them that they were not going back in there to drag that dumpster out because that dumpster never was out front until Novak started hauling the garbage from there. Yeah, it used to be I agree. It used to be back in the northwest corner of the building and that's when Cresmans were hauling the garbage out of there and it was never a problem.

And I'll I'll just about bet you that Novak said yes. They signed up with them and then said, "You got to get that dumpster up front cuz they're coming in with their truck with the hooks on the front." Yep. Where do cars there where Cresman's come in with their regular garbage truck and they will pick up the dumpster on the back of the truck, they can access it the backside. Novax can't. Makes sense. And yeah, so we need some contract some cement contractors. I give them about six that all live in town here that love to do little cement projects all the time. Yes. All you have to do is look on Hartford happenings and you'll see every time somebody says cement they'll all be saying they can do it tomorrow. Exactly. Most of them will work for beer.

Okay. Anything else for Can you say that out loud? Motion to adjourn. Oh no. Charlie horse. Unfortunately, you can't you can't adjourn a meeting if you still have things on the agenda. Tracy, you got anything you want to add or call it good? It sucks to get old. Unless you guys question, I would make a motion to adjurnn. That happened about 2:00. I said it sucks to get old, doesn't it? I have a motion and a second to adjurnn. All in favor? You're going to keep us after 9. You have to stock pickle juice for us old people. Ajourn. Oh my goodness.

So those variance requests we had shouldn't be. So now you're coming as a planning and zoning board and moved into use the camera turned