Hancock County Council Budget, Efficiency and Revenue Committee and Council - Regular Meeting

Got your balance sheets. No. Yes. Come on, Mary. 32. That's a slow start today. She drives all the way from the corner of the county. She has to travel the furthest. I know. I have to stop and take breaks. We'll go We'll go slow and she has to get me there. Page one, county general. Looks pretty good. Economic development. Just going down the list there. Will you use the fund numbers? Pardon me. Will you say the fund numbers? I just if you want to talk about them so I can keep up with what

101 County General looking good. 1112 uh lit economic development looks good. Uh 11:14 that's lit special purpose. [snorts] That's the library. It keeps building up. 11:22 is community corrections a project fund looks healthy. Then 11:35 capital and 1138 um uh de capital development. We keep taking money out of it, but it's still pretty healthy. Uh, I have 1156 firearms training. Look. What? What is that?

Firearm. They probably have to have bullets. Yeah, that would be $22,000 worth of bullets. That's good. That's good. Yeah. Just training. It's a fund that we get state every year. We don't get gun permit money anymore. And so they figured out a formula just keeps coming in and so it's a non-revering fund. Oh, okay. Like a grant sort of. It's kind of like the inate money, you know, they did a formula. Okay. So that's why we keep every year. So it just builds in there. Okay.

Okay. 1159 [clears throat] is health. They're okay. And then the uh 1161 Health First Indiana, that's the extra money that they kind of cut back on, but there's healthy balance. 1170 is let public safety healthy. 1186 rainy day is steady time in anybody wants to make comments or questions. Page two. Uh 1213 is CASSA. They're solvent. 1222 is E911. Uh that that's one that we know is uh going down. Uh then uh the let uh 1233 uh let uh correctional I think that is the operating and then the let uh 1234 is the capital and then the uh 12 uh 35 is the let uh uh peace out again one look good 251's [snorts] a drug court. They're solvent. Page three. [snorts] 259 is behavioral health court and thereabove water. Uh 4616 is the main allocation area in uh Buck Creek Township. And then there are a couple more. uh 4624 and 4628 or other. Well, the 4624 is is the next largest uh allocation

area that's just west of the first one. 4634 is a small allocation area. Then uh 4700 is our self insurance. That's [snorts] liability insurance. And 4908 is EDA payments. I guess that is just showing that is building. There is income coming into it. Paid for uh 4913 jury pay fund is uh just above water. That's good.

Actually, my wife just collected a little bit from that. Yep. Yep. Hope it was an interesting one. Yeah. Uh 5901 and 5902 are the health claims funds. The first one's is the I guess the operating fund and then the uh 5902 is the reserve and just a guess that looks like it may maybe make it through the year. the auditor. Do you have any thoughts on that? Uh

have not been updated on kind of how that's going, but it seems we have not heard that anybody's nervous about it. Kelly might pop in. I'm not sure. So I haven't heard anything any concerns yet. Okay. And Kelly [clears throat] Kelly is leaving, right? Yes. Okay. Is she being replaced or just curious? They're working on it.

They're working. Okay. [clears throat] Okay. Uh page five, right at the top, 7201 is food and beverage. And I'm guessing that balance will go up by about a million next week maybe when we get the uh proceeds of the uh uh 2025 geo bond. Okay. And then all the way down that page or more grants, page six, uh 8955 [clears throat] is the the old cares act. Uh but the health department and I guess that's just a fund that can sit there and whatever they do with it. 8960 is the ARPA. So, anybody got any questions or comments or

is the ARPA money the restricted and non-restricted has there been any movement on where that money the balances are either earmarked to or where we'd like to see them go or what's going on with that? So, you that you mean the opioid is that what you're talking about? Yeah. Um, I think that the commissioners are working on something and they've got um someone that's doing um the applications much like um the foundation did for the ARPA money. Um they've hired someone to come in assessment application process and all of that for So they're taking applications right now. Yes. Yeah. Or they're getting ready to start.

Um Janine, I thought you guys put out you guys approved that application a meeting or two ago, right? Wait. And is it a 30-day window for the um applications? The opioid applications. 30 days. Okay. I saw the application so I know, right? Um they put it out there. I don't know when it's due, but the application for the county to submit something to state the state to try to get the 500k match is due in January. So sometime between now and January the committee right will review whatever comes in and back [clears throat]

and now we've already contacted them via the letter that they required us to do to let them know that we were interact I mean we're on target. Yeah. Okay. Uh I don't see [cough and clears throat] there he comes. There he goes. There he goes. [laughter] Um, hey, next John. Do you have a You're you were kind of being uh [laughter] a little mysterious. Come on now. Don't be that way. Your email [clears throat] had me just like, "What?" He said, "What?" They won't what? Yep. It was lengthy.

Yes, it was.

And confusing. Ah well the point the point of the length of it was the a zero at the end of the day. Um the the first thing that I do want to talk about is the original reason I was on the agenda was to ask for advertisement of additional appropriation, but I not going to actually know if I truly need that until next until payroll Friday. When we did the late um when we did the late pay increases last year, we said we were going to have to come back for about 85,000 in additional appropriations. Well, we've managed based on how we hired this year to replace people and where we've lost or the only person that we lost this year. Um, we're basically at zero. So, we've zeroed that out. So, there but there's there was a weird uh PF pull out of our fund that I just need to get straightened out and just to see if we need it. Then the other thing that came up was the fact that we're in a bit of a unique situation where we had an employee say, "Hey, in just less than a year, I'm going to be leaving because they're going to be finishing school and they're going to be uh doing what they really want want to do with their long-term career." Um, and so that got me thinking and it happened after just actually happened a couple days after the last council meeting that you had um that we found this out. And so we have these two part-time positions that we have in the budget for next year. There's 75 well there's $75,000 in our part-time budget. [snorts] Um, and based on the fact that one of our part-time people is now full-time, um, we haven't been able to fill that other part-time position. The other one is probably not going to be with us for

very much longer. She hasn't worked in two months. Um, and so what I was what I was asking for is if we could eliminate take that part-time take 65 to 70,000. This leaves me with two part-time employees. Um, and they they're not going to we're not going to spend more than $5,000 on them next [snorts] year. So, what I'd like to ask is that on or around March 1st of 2026, if we can take that part-time money, 65 to 70,000 of that to hire a single full-time employee as a pre basically as a prehire to get that person trained for the person that's going to leave. By doing this on March on or around March 1st, we there's no ask for additional money. It's a zero. It's it's just that

you're basically wanting to pay this person out of part-time money until she's ready to go to the full-time position and then whatever's left over in the part-time will stay in part-time. We'd we'd prefer to hire that person full-time on or around March 1st. We don't know who it is yet. We have five people left in our hiring pool and we'd have to re we have to reinter. So you're going to take you want to pay that person out of the part-time money. Correct. Until they become the full-time

we pay we'd pay the the um the insurance FICA is already in there because we have to pay FIC at a part-time anyway. the Perf and the salary all basically comes down to a I think it was here but it was it was if we hired on or around March 1st it would be a zero ask there would be no additional appropriation all it would be would be the salary ordinance for the full so you'd have to come up with a number and us position that in a place to pay that person because part-time people do not get benefits right so that toident identify that money as a full-time position temporarily. We'd have to make some transfers to do that. No,

no. I mean, I'd have to make transfers within my own fund. Within my own fund, his own fund, but the insurance a whole another person would have health insurance. I count and John then in 27 your your body count would be the same% of the insurance. That's the idea. That's a secondary idea is that we will evaluate as we get closer to the 27 budget if we even need to keep that other full-time position. We will not fill that other full-time position at the end of the year. So, so when you say absorbing [clears throat] the benefits, what do you mean 100%.

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, there's no there is there is absolutely zero ask here except for the salary ordinance to add the p to add the other full-time position in. That's that's it. Everything else everything else is and then in 27 you'll make up something if we have to we'll deal with it. Correct. Yeah. We we don't know we don't know what technology is going to bring us for 2027 to know if we need to rehire that position or if we do an additional person we talked about that person probably going uh on the RDC budget maybe in if we do that but he's losing one and just gaining one right now and it's a year and a half have to

but yeah that's that's the and we obviously we don't have to decide [snorts] to do this today because like you said it's the the way the money works is going to be March 1st is the is the uh zero date. I think the most important thing is that we have a you have a plan. You know what I mean? Yeah. And we've we've had a full-time and it does take a lot [clears throat] of training for Yeah. And the and the commissioners already approved this.

They we talked about it briefly yesterday, but they have not they have I have not officially gone to them. I I I kind of went sort of forward to them yesterday to talk about it and then backwards today to back to them. Um, like I said, because I just wanted to get it out there and just because if it was going to be a massive no, then I was just going to shall we put that on the council agenda maybe. Yeah. And if you and like I said, if you want to wait till January to do it, it's up to you. Oh, yeah. Because you got to have a salary ordinance, right? So, and you don't have that yet. We're getting ready to present that to you for your but we wouldn't amend it till January anyway. Right. Right. Yep. We can wait. Yeah, we need Yeah.

Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. I just wanted to get it get it out there today and so it's not new news when it does come. Correct. Yeah. Didn't want to put pressure on. So that's that's it. I may be back next week to ask for that. It would be we my per like I said my PEF is just a little bit off in one of my funds and it would be about a $3,000 additional appropriation just to make the last payroll for PEF but that's but that's it we've done I to come out from $85,000 short to dead-on budget. I I think we did okay this year. So thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks. Thanks John. [clears throat]

Uh Randy, do you have some updates for us? Sure. Morning [snorts] everybody. Morning. [clears throat]

So Jim sits on the HDC executive committee, so he hears a lot of what's going on. And so, uh, this has been a very busy year. Uh, probably the busiest since maybe 21. So, uh, I know there have been some things that have been in the papers, announcements of this, announcements that. Just thought it might be time to kind of come in and give you a little more cohesive presentation of what what it looks like out there. Um so two things of which uh are certainly in the public domain is uh this year within the last 60 days two of the million square foot buildings have been purchased uh they uh we had four and uh in September um in August uh Walmart bought uh the million square foot building that GDI built which sits uh just south of 500 North and just west of Mount Comfort Road. And then that I was expecting. I knew they were doing some things. Out of the blue, uh, at the end of September, I got an email from, uh, gentleman who's the economic development director for the state of Indiana for Amazon, and they bought, uh, the Red Rock million square foot building, which sits on Buck Creek Road. Um, I've had a chance to talk with both Walmart and Amazon. Uh Walmart's plan is to make that a distribution center uh for what they refer to as nonsortable items. The the big fulfillment center has a lot of robotics and automation. We can talk about that here in a minute. Um

but Walmart sells things that robots can't pick up. If you think washers and dryers and refrigerators and lawn and garden equipment, big things like that. So, that building will be outfitted to do that sometime next year. They've got a timeline for that. Um, Amazon bought the million square foot building and they don't have a hard plan for that yet. Um, the gentleman I called, we had a call last week and he said, "I know what we think we might do, but have no decisions been made." And what he said was, so this is preliminary, that it would be basically a warehouse for their fulfillment centers as he said, you know, it could be full of laundry detergent or, you know, um that they would [clears throat] then send out to their fulfillment centers. So it's a fulfillment center for their fulfillment centers. Um, and that's why apparently they this is kind of a new sort of their operation, but they've been buying million square foot buildings across the country to do this. And so, uh, that's that's what that looks like. Uh, Sugar Foods, um, nothing definitive, but I'm going to say that it's more likely than not that that project is not going to move forward. Um, if you remember that's the they make foods. It's food production company. Um, they leased the uh building that uh Ambrose owns, the one that sits right on 70 and the building got sold out from underneath of them and the new owner said, "We will not honor that lease. We will not those terms are not acceptable to us." So, I've then worked with them

trying to find another building because we've got space throughout the county. And the consultant called me a couple of weeks ago and said that they've been they've identified a building in another county nearby. Um, and so he said it's not dead, but I wouldn't hold my breath. I had read that they were uh talking to Whitland and they had approached their council requesting a seven-year abatement on personal property and the council was somewhat taken back because they'd never granted one that large and they ended up tableabling it at that time. So, do you know if that's still sitting there or

That's exactly where it is. Uh that's why that that's why the consultant said, you know, we didn't see this disaster coming here. So I wouldn't say that it's ne absolutely happening down in Johnson County either. So uh that was a couple of weeks ago he and I talked about that. And so you know if it goes sideways there they may come back and take a second run over here. I I don't know. Time will tell. So that's that's the state of play as to them. Do you think it's that is it the abatement or is it that they can't find the right amount of space? No, I think they can't find the right amount of space yet.

I I think it's I think it's both. Uh and what I'm what I'm getting at is they're trying to keep their cost of operation down. So they're trying to find a building that just like you know the Ambrose building had a tenant in there previously that left. And so the it was a building that was had been depreciated some. So the cost of getting into it was was going to be less. Uh I mean I gave them all the other buildings that we had space in. And the I believe my understanding is the building they looked at in Johnson County also had had a previous tenant. So they were they were trying to get something cheaper. Uh Ambrose wanted to build him a new building, but they don't have [clears throat] time to get a building built. So

again, how many square feet are they wanting to Right. Well, facilitate the uh that one out there is a little over 700,000. 700,000. Now, I don't know about the one in uh Whiteland, [clears throat] but that's about the number that they're needing.

Yeah. What they were wanting uh they don't need that much for their production facility, but they wanted that much so that they would have room to store the the product the the pre-product before they make it and then they wanted to have distribution as well out of there. So they had they they want to get the raw materials in space for production space for distribution storage. So uh that was the thinking. They don't they don't need 700,000 for their operation but they thought well we'd like to have room to grow

room to grow. Um there is uh we had a site visit for a very very nice project here for the city of Greenfield uh little over a month ago and it's a manufacturing uh firm and unofficially that is happening. I got I got the call Friday night. Uh it's a company that will be coming here. Really nice project. Um it's uh I think within the next week there'll be some sort of press release that I've been told please don't say anything. Let the city relish the win. Uh but that's going to be a very nice project uh for us. as a part of their site visit uh they wanted some economic data and I reached out uh to the department of workforce development and I got it and I passed pushed this out. I don't know if you guys had a chance to go through this. I looked at it,

but uh it's kind of the I thought it was really good between this and I routinely go to Stats Indiana, which is this is uh a site that's maintained by the IU School of Business and it's they're the official repository of census data. So if you want to know what's called Stats Indiana, you can just punch in Hancock County and it tells you lots of demography about our where we are. Uh I think you know it's kind of been known that uh in 23 Hancock County was the fastest growing county in the state. In 2024 it was the second fastest growing county in the state. Uh but I will tell you that the some of the data that was in here uh I thought was was pretty telling. Um, from the uh from the 2020 census to this year, Hancock County's population has grown 10,651. And between 25 and 2030, it should go add another 10,281. Bottom line is in a decade, we're going to grow 20,000 people.

It'd be interesting. Interesting to know what townships they don't reference. They don't break it down. They don't break it down there. I'm assuming it's the west side, but I I'd like to hear. Um, well, I do know that last year um got the exact number here. So, in 2024, Hancock County issued 1,085 single family building permits. I know over 500 of those were in McCordsville. So, half of all the issued building permits came out of out of McCordsville. And then, Lucky us.

Pardon me. Lucky us. How many? Traffic's bad enough up there. I know. I tried to get here at 8:30. I couldn't get here in time. [snorts] I know.

Um it's it's busy. Um but there's some really d interesting data points that I think are I mean we're growing as far as population. Um at the end of 2024, the median age in Hancock County was 40.1. Now the state average is 38.3. Uh but I will tell you in 2020 our average age was over 42. because our population is getting younger and it's getting younger because all these young families moving here. I mean, you know, they're they're young couples and they've got little kids. So, we're skewing in the right direction when it comes to the uh not only we're growing, but we're growing younger. That's not what happens most places. You know, I I keep saying the same thing. I'm from Henry County. That's where I grew up. That population is shrinking and it's older. It's much older. Um the a really and something else too. So the state average uh for people with a college degree is 28.8%. Uh in Hancock County it's 34.2%. Now it's always and that's a with a bachelor's degree or higher. Uh, and those numbers are skewing higher because not just college graduates, but professionals with doctorates and things like that. So, we're skewing that. You're you're always kind of considered in a good spot if a third of your population has a college degree, which would be 33% and we're at 34. So, again, we're trending in the right direction because people with higher educations tend to have higher incomes. Um, on the other side of that, uh, a this is this is where you want to be about last. Our poverty rate is 5.7% and out of 92 counties, we rank 89th.

So, obviously, it's Hamilton, Boone, and Hendricks. That's that's where the that's where the wealth is. And us, we're always third or fourth in all of these uh data points. Um the other thing oh the the migration uh talking about the the growth of the population where people come from. This is one of if you if you've got this pull this out and look at it. Uh the blue side is people moving into Hancock County and where they came from. The pink is when people leave Hancock County, where do they go? And so, uh the biggest one is Marian County. Uh Marian County sent us 2,411 people and we sent them uh 1,274 people. So we had a net gain of about 1,200 people. U second on the list is Hamilton County and that's where all of our new neighbors are coming from. They're coming from Fisers. Um so Hamilton County sent us 833. We sent them 531. So that's a net gain of about 300. Um, so it's we we know we're growing, but it's nice to know how we're growing and where people are coming from and when they leave, where they go and that sort of thing. Uh, because growth growth equals change and change um has benefits and and and negatives. So the question you know as uh

like you want to know how many where are all the houses where people moving to you know come whether it's after the 2030 census or in 3 months I don't know but they're going to start talking about redistricting and how do things move and where do the voters go and all that. So um there there's a lot of things in play. the um that's just population, that's just life here in Hancock County. What we've been up to um and you know these things. I go ahead.

I had asked Jim at our last meeting if since he's our representative to the HDC if we could get information or data about companies that have reached out to Hancock County and have actually moved into Hancock County that didn't ask for anything. They just wanted to be here. they didn't ask for an abatement or they didn't ask for any incentives that they just needed help finding a location. Do we have that available? Um, no. And because if that happens, we don't get called, you know, they uh you don't get any calls that unless they want abatement. Right.

Well, Dave BGO is the only one that I know of. Well, and so and Dave Vgo, I mean, that's back in the late 90s, early 2000s. So, that's a long time ago. The only the only pro um project that I know that's landed here asked for baitment, didn't get it and came anyway. And that's Rise commercial. Um that wouldn't uh the one that uh builds the kind of the entrepreneurship space the the many small stoages. Small storage for contractors things like that on the very [snorts] very west side. Yeah. That's on um Oh, they did build anyway. Yeah. On 500. That's on 500. No. Three. Three north and seven west. Seven seven west or eight from u

Hunter's Chase. Hunter Chase, right? Yeah. So that one came in spite of they asked for incentive didn't get it and they came anyway. Yeah. Um but I if there are other things um I just find it surprising that um if they wanted they decided Hancock County looks like a good place to be that they don't reach out to you guys and ask what's available and that they're not chasing an abatement or chasing some sort of an incentive to be given to them if they come. I

the there there's still a lot of stuff that happens that kind of happens behind our back. Um you know I know an automotive repair place was looking for space here in Greenfield trying to take down an old building. Uh and and but those they tend to just call real estate brokers. They're looking for space. You know they've got they know commercial brokers and they call them as opposed to us. Sometime they sometimes brokers refer them to us if they say is there anything that the city or the county can do to help us you know get cost down so then it comes to us that way. Um the um trying to think for example when companies come that starts with them reaching typically to the state and then the state pushes the request for information out but you know the uh the development community the GDI's the lofts the red rocks they they just came directly to us

bigger

developments I I get that Um, but through through October 31st, we've had we've received a total of 103 requests for information. And out of those 103, we responded to 55 of them, which is that that's kind of how it's been uh for the last six years. That is that if we get RFIs, we can respond to more than 50% of them. Uh that didn't used to be the case. Um we didn't if we didn't have buildings or we didn't have space or whatever we well we can't. But ever since the big builds has been going on since 2019 2020 we've got available space. Um the uh the ones that we don't respond to the vast majority of those is because they need rail. We don't have rail access. A lot of it is we don't have uh there are some projects that we just know are toxic and we've said we just kind of put our hands in our pockets and think well there are 91 other counties they can they can have that one if it's something that's going to leech into soils or u you know I was on the board for 20 years before I took this position that we always told the executive director we don't want anything that bleeds or belches smoke that that was came from the city. It's like we don't want we don't want it. We don't want dirty. We're we can be pickier than that. So, uh

so it' be interesting to know though you said you had 55 actual things you've responded to. How many of those are we actually u would we benefit from? Because we're we're we're really not benefiting from you going to Greenfield and and doing that stuff. We're not benefiting from the McCordville and the Fortville stuff that you're doing up there. What what are we benefiting from? Because right now we haven't benefited from anything this year. We lost the the thing because they're the sugar foods. Amazon and Walmart were going to buy those buildings whether they called you or not. Um and then so so I mean I'm just saying and then you you're 55 but sounds like to me half of those aren't even in our area. What

if you've responded to 55 things, how many of them are in the county? [clears throat] Um, I think we pay the majority of of HD stuff.

Well, I think the uh the majority of things that we respond to are in the county because that's where the buildings are. Um, you know, and and politics change. I was thinking about this driving down here. We were we were on the very short list as in one or two for big EV battery manufacturer. Well, policy changed. We elections happen, things get disincentivized. That project went away. I mean, it's just not going to happen. Uh now, you know, that was the EV battery manufacturers. That was a big thing for about four or five years. Now, the hot topic is data centers. Um there, you know, my gosh, out of out of nowhere to surprise to everybody is this group that wants to build a uh a power generation plant

and well I and they came, they met with the planning department, the county commissioners. I was there. Haven't heard a word since. You were here yesterday. I know they're still out there, but they've they're doing whatever they're doing, but uh you know, [clears throat] knock on doors and talk to the neighbors hearing something couple of weeks, but [clears throat] um my connections to the Blue River and the folks down there [clears throat] have not seen or heard. Oh, okay.

Yeah, that was we had one contact. It was it was a splash for like three or four days. You know, something was on social media and oh my gosh. And then they went to meet and we had this meeting and then it just went really quiet. At least as for me. So Randy, I think we're running out of time, but I have one quick question and I don't know if everybody knows, but I know that you are heading up and lots of entities locally have contributed to fund a study related to what our deficits are in retail. Yes. And so when would we hear the results of uh that study?

That's going to finish up in 2026. Um and yes, we're kind of spearheading that. And but Eric is running that side of the house. [laughter] So she uh she and Heather Chandra, the main street person.

So the first an uh part was doing the gap analysis. Where are the gaps? And so they've done that. And so uh the the next part then is who can fill those gaps and reaching out to those companies. And that's that's the kind of the 26 work plan. So that will get it's we started really at the very beginning of 25. It's going to be 25 and 26. And so uh you probably know more about that like in the first maybe maybe second quarter of next year. Okay. Well, we'll we'll bring you back again. So, um, all right.

It's, uh, this has been fun this year because a couple years it was just really quiet. You uh, and now it's it's not been this busy in about 5 years. A lot of stuff's going on. And, you know, your point to where they're occurring, if something happens in Greenfield and they hire 300 people, well, those three people are going to live somewhere and they're going to have wages and they're going to pay income tax. So, It's always a win. It's just which way you win, you know. Um, and this this is a project that would fill up an empty building. So, lots of good things are happening and uh I'll let the mayor have his day in the sun.

Thank you everybody. Craig, thank you. Good morning. Uh, morning. I should [snorts] warn you, I stayed up uh all night because I was so excited the number guy gets to talk about a bunch of numbers today. So, you know, so you know, stand by a bunch. Thanks. [laughter] I think we call those nerds, don't we? I mean, I need more coffee for this. [laughter]

I'm out. So, now that you've had even Tammy said she had extra coffee. So, I'm going to go through the report sales result and then I'm going to give you another report, but I'm not going to hand that out until we go through the sales result. Remember, this is the $6.5 million geo bond. And I would really want to take you through over the last six months where we kind of were heading with this. We knew we were going to do a geo bond this year. Okay. So, one of the things that came up very very early on was, and I'm on page one now of this report, was the interest rate. And remember, we modified it to allow for a premium because there was adjustment, you know, uh, down in the paperwork for whatever reason. You'll notice on page two, the bonds sold at 4%. The coupons were 4%. Page one has $437,000 of original issue premium. And Deb, I'm going to give you where those things go here in just a minute. [snorts] P the next page the page uh page three which is the basic the re uh bids we received [clears throat] we received four bids and this was a result remember we can sell a go bond either a negotiated basis and the commissioners were approached by an underwriter to just let's just negotiate this deal Well, this was actually sold competitively and that is our recommendation for bonds like this

because what happens is you get this competition. Okay? And so as a result of that, you look at the very back page, Hancock County actually got better interest rates than Hamilton County. Did they not did they not do a competitive bid? Did they negotiate? Oh, it was negotiated.

Okay. And so that's very very important. And IPS, you would always negotiate an IPS deal because there's too many story too much air to the bottom. Out of curiosity is is some of that margin in yield between the AAA Hamilton County and ours because ours is general obligation and theirs is lease rental or do you think it's simply the differential is a lease rental will bring the interest rate cost more for the issuer but the AAA will bring it so it's almost comparable. Yeah.

And keep in mind this is what we have to prove to the securities and exchange commission. why we recommend it. It it you know it affects your taxpayers. But this goes farther than that. This goes to the Securities and Exchange Commission when they look at these deals and say, "Why did we do it?" Jim, did you take one and pass it around? Oh, sorry.

Okay. Um, so this is the documentation that the Securities and Exchange Commission actually sees. Remember, they don't regulate you. they regulate us and the underwriters. Okay, so that's important to understand. Now, let's go to the closing report that's being passed out. Okay, if there's no questions on this one, and I'll try try and stay on time. Well, Greg, the the uh net interest rate that we're paying though is 3.11%, right? That is correct. Okay, that is correct. Yeah,

that's a bigger. and and so let's go to uh the letter. So Deborah, I'm on the closing report and this is kind of important to your group. Okay. As you know, actually in a hopefully in about 10 minutes, you'll be getting a the treasurer will be getting a wire. So the money is now literally going to be in the bank today. Okay? So, it's closing today, this morning, and you should get uh Jane should get the confirmation. And so, as a result of getting that premium, if you look at the letter, the letter says that number one, we paid the underwriters discount from the premium. So that was the 78,000 was basically eliminated by the premium that we got, meaning the demand for the bonds. Okay? And then if you look at the letter, it says the remaining 358,000 should be deposited in the new debt service fund. So we're going to set up Deborah and and Mary, we're going to set up a debt service fund ASAP. We're going to deposit the 358,000. And what does that mean? That basically means if we go back to page three, we already have our first three payments set aside. So, George, the tax rate did not change as a result of this bond issue right [cough] now. [clears throat] Okay. So, that's important to know and that's why we didn't want to leave that number that was adjusted down. This has really it paid the underwriters

discount. It's going to pay the first three payments and and you didn't pay any more. You will not pay any more than 3.11 3.11%. So that's why when you take time over 6 months and you structure it right and you get your house in order as far as credit rating and you have when remember the old commercial when banks compete you win. Well that's what it is when you when banks compete you win. And that's what happened. So all in all I'm on page two now. Page two is where we will put the funds, Deborah. And and so we will have the 6.5 and we'll put the money in. So that little diagram shows you. So we'll now have basically two funds. The one with the proceeds and then the one for the debt service fund. So the way I look at it is we got an incredible winwin. Um and the timing was just perfect for going out. Um interest rates have been going up and down and all around every day. Okay. It just depends on who's blowing up who and you know what's going on. So as a result then um you know that it really worked out great. So, questions questions on either report and please just tell me what report you're on. And Key, you're working your numbers really, really hard.

Oh, no. Can't. We fed him some raw meat so he could come after me today. [laughter and clears throat] I don't think he can on me. I'm very happy with the rate. I think it was an attractive coupon, especially with, you know, the market believing the interest rates will fall. And I'm very impressed to see that we got a better rate than an issue the same week of aa one day later entity even [laughter] notice we put the days. Yes. [snorts] Okay. So, this is our second bond that we've done in the last 24 12 months. uh cuz we did the bond for the trade school and then we did

Sure. So, I'm still trying to figure out what the importance of because the biggest contention we had on the board at one point was Scott's uh thing about putting a 5.75 or 6% cap and on the coupon and if you look at the last 20 years or whatever you had on that sheet of bond issuance, it runs from 2.5 to 3.1. 1. Mhm. Um, so

that's a coupon max, not a net interest max. And so if you're issuing a 30-year bond, you might want to put a 6%. Not now, because rates have cut several times since we did the other. But when rates were higher, if you want to tell somebody, we will give you a 6% coupon and the going actual 30-year rate was 4 and a half, then they would have paid more than par, more than 100 to get the 6%. They're basically paying you interest up front to get a higher coupon.

And then over time, if interest rates drop, because your coupon's higher, your bonds can actually go up in value. you can sell them higher than you purchase them for, right? And and as an expert in bond issuance and having two security license and a CPA license, that's what we're required to know and what we're required to guide you through and that's what we do, right? But so if you but if you keep your percentage lower, your coupon rate lower or closer is what I how I look at it, which we closer, it gives you more people that'll bid on it. No, not necessarily. It' be the opposite.

It' be the opposite, right? Because you may have a handful of people over here that want a coupon of 4%. But you may have another set of them saying, "No, I want to give you an extra thousand because I want that 6%." Because I need that cash flow of 6% over the next 10 years. So you actually would limit it to a certain degree, I believe. So [snorts] yeah. So thank you, Keely. Yeah. You your your old days are coming back. Yeah. And that's the good part about being competitive, too, is the market sorts that out for you. You know, you see how close these people are.

You compare us to Hamilton County, every single bond almost is less than theirs. You you look at that sheet, every every one of those numbers, we were less than them just about every single time.

Yeah. Because you Well, first of all, you've got a really good name and you've got a really good credit rating. And the credit rating is a in a category where AAA versus a double A plus is not a bad area. And I'm also going to tell you one other thing. I mean, there were people that were you guys were on the Robin was on the phone call and things like that. I believe with S&P, the number one issue I'm getting out of S&P right now is developer bonds that are having problems. And so had we gone into like the mega the major data center bond and going out hund00 million on that thing that would have taken a half an hour or 45 minutes to explain and SNP is coming after every one of those deals and making sure that it's a good deal for the county and not a bad deal for the taxpayer and there's not something that's been written in there like Planefield had where they missed a payment or two because they didn't know about it and the the town and they dropped to in uh below investment grade uh rating and so there are so you've got to be very very careful even when we do these RDC uh special bonds that uh the rating agency see is now looking at it very very hard. We just went through it with Hendrickx and [snorts] they had good news to tell on each one of them. So,

so it's it covers everything, you know, everything even the amplified bonds. So, I'm going to ask a question. They probably the audience definitely want is this are these callable or non-allable call? No, we have a we have a call feature. Okay. I believe the call feature is uh we always put it about half life and so yeah if we would um you remember these are advalor property tax bonds so it's not very likely you will get your kitty full of a lot of property tax and so it's very unlikely but you could call them and at a 4% n you know that'll be a tough one.

Well especially that you never know that far out. Yeah. No, we did not go that far. This isn't very long, but six years, isn't it? Maturities um years took it's out there to 2036. Call it issue in three years if the rates dropped. Oh, yes. Yeah. The zero or one. [clears throat] Yeah. Real low. Other questions on the bond sale? If not, we didn't run over. We can't refinance. Would you go on with the um income tax changes analysis, please? Sure. The one little the small one. Yeah.

So, the small one we're still waiting for um final approval from from DLGF. It is my understanding that is correct. So, they've received everything in the timely manner. any of the changes that they made on that ordinance. Um we actually um have uploaded all of that to Gateway. I've talked to Anna Curley with the LGF and everything is on course. We're just waiting for a response from them.

Okay. Thank you, Deborah. So, so what we've got then is on the first page here, we've got the lit rate proposed summary. And as you know, what we did is we took up public safety or we took up PAP from 0.04 04 to 0.06 which um John was already tackling me and say well I get some of that money in January. I said 1112th of the incremental increase. It may be a little more than this because notice we've got two that are talking about lip small. Okay. The small one the big one's the hour long the thinner. Yeah. That's why I [snorts] asked Jim the small one.

Thank you. and and so then we've got the audit which is changing from point uh or 3 million6 to 4 million7. Now keep in mind commissioners you kind of control the edit. We we were originally going to put it in jail lit and uh but at this point in time that's looking good. As you know we'll be funding the new maintenance facility. I think that's the correct term for the building.

Okay. Um, and that will be coming now first quarter. So, what we've said is we may need some of this, we wanted it to go into lit additionally so that we would have it purely for the maintenance building, but I think we're fine right now with it in edit. Just don't spend your money before you get it. Okay? to leave it and edit and then make that transfer once

if we need it if [snorts] we need it. And so we're hoping we won't need it because Janine, you and I even looked at the balances. I think we're very very comfortable, but we don't have a full number on the maintenance facility. And [clears throat] so once we get that in first quarter, then we'll be fine to go from there. So in 2026, we'll be cash flowing that. And as I indicated to you, Deborah, the goal is not to do a bond anticipation note or a bond for the maintenance facility, but to cash flow it cuz keep in mind all of these income taxes, which I'll talk at 10, are going away, okay? Except the special lip. So, you know, so that will impact all [clears throat] of these. So, we'll keep it in seat it uh commissioner until uh we if and when we would need it. Okay. So, that's it. Uh back on the um uh geo bond, the money coming in, there are uh two or three uh funds that uh we are going to uh reimburse with that and I think the auditor is just waiting for the

waiting for that to come in. Well, we're going to send you an email as soon as we put that money back in there.

Yeah. And then while we're back on that, I I think it's important to note that Mary, you were on the email change chain. We reached back out to the fairgrounds and said, you know, tell us how we're doing. She indicated everything was going good. They will be asking for their second trunch, maybe 300,000, but they're ahead of the ball game, and I've only heard great things at this point in time. Now, obviously, we're not funding that5 or $6 million brand new building, and we hadn't gotten to that point, but I'm I'm I'm waiting to see what their 26 needs are because it was not perceived to be part of the GEO bond. It was my perception. [clears throat]

Yeah, they're hoping to come in to the December next meeting we have and uh present that. I've I've got a question on the estimated local income tax distributions. Okay. Um for example, just take Green Township 2026, the total distributions 55,646. And then if you go to your 2028 estimations, 37,74. So those numbers are accurate. Now wait a minute. Are you on the small version? Yeah, it's on the small. Pardon me? Yeah. Okay. Where did you see I thought I heard you say 2028. Yes.

It says 2026 on the last 2026. It says 2028 on the second page. Oh, where? That's why I think you have the bigger. Oh, it's been placing. Oh, he's looking at the Yeah, you're looking at the wrong one. You look at the wrong one. Yeah, I think you have the bigger one. That 26 before and after. That'll be your question later. Yeah. This is just going to do that for an hour here at 10 o'clock. It's a little skinny. Yeah, that's coming up. Okay. Yeah. Well, that's why I have a question. [laughter] Well, you can save it to that hourong discussion. All right. Yeah, save that up. I knew you would. I You told me you would come after me. Okay. Okay.

Okay. That's all I have at this point.

Okay. real quickly uh before we uh go on to uh Walmart. Uh old business one is uh animal control. Uh I think the uh Janine uh negotiated with the um city and came up with the proposed um uh animal control uh deal for 26. But they also added in 27 uh with a 5% increase and and I know I think you negotiated that so I think we need to uh back her up on that but suggestion I would have and Jennine and I talked about it is that we we add to the agreement uh someplace that that we agree to the 27 7 number uh as a 5% increase as long as uh that number is commensurate with the county uh being responsible for the uninccorporated areas. So that we we get in writing that our basis for uh paying animal control is we're paying for the unincorporated areas. Is that agreeable?

It's agreeable. Yes. And hopefully it will actually end up being a smaller number because at some point we will have the other municipalities towns on board which would decrease our amount owed and then so the 5% increase would not

it will it will eat it up. And I think that once we have the December all the numbers, all the correct numbers and they have larger municipalities and Yep. And uh [clears throat] come another discussion with them would be as uh Janine pointed out um uh we need to talk to them about um senior services their contribution to senior services. They have made the 25 contribution of 150,000 but um right now I don't think there's any agreement on their participation for 26. We need to Jim and I will meet with [clears throat]

and and we would be discussing with them that they uh would agree to pick up half of what the state does not pay for. We would do half and they would do half. Whatever that number, I mean, it's just going to be growing because it's everything grows in expenses.

Senior services.

That's why I think we're so very happy to negotiate partner on the animal management [snorts] and you get that that negotiated in and completed that that it relieves us from the non-incorporated or just non-incorporated areas. That'll be super. That'll be the first time in years we've been able to accomplish anything like that. their new new director there. She has the ability to looking at doing some additional tracking. John's here too able to add columns I think is what hopefully track between and incorporated areas. Is that did I remember that correctly?

Calls that they get directly versus calls that we get. That was where the problems were last with the last set of numbers. And between us and [clears throat] Greenfield, the two biggest issues we've had for years now or and last year Ford started with senior services is that and animal control. And that's that's been a wedge between us for a long time. So that would be just want to be good partners. I mean, you know, we're all in this together. And and it's been tough though. They didn't start out being good partners, but they cut our 911 funding without any without any question, you know. So, that would be super if you can fix this out.

And uh also the commissioners have sent out the RFP for the master plan for the um county farm project. When did that get published? Do you girls the ma the RFP for the master plan for the county farm system I'm sorry master the project goes did that go out that I think that just went last week last week

and uh I did check with the uh judges on the um approval from the state for the juvenile magistrate Great. They said that's not going to happen until probably April of next year. The decision will be made in April or one. Uh the decision um they said it's not going to be made until April. So that's coming up. Um can we take a quick break and then we'll do uh Walmart? Yes. 5 minute break.

All right, we're back on. I don't know. We're going to talk uh we're ready for a Walmart tax abatement discussion proposal. That stuff just because Randy uh this is uh Walmart uh tax abatement proposal. This is just information only. They hope to be at the uh council meeting. I've asked Randy to um today to kind of fill us in on on what the proposal is.

So, some of this is what you heard this summer. Uh they are certainly revising their uh plans and their ask and their offer. Uh we so two folks uh two gentlemen from Bentonville flew in last week when we had the site tour. What's that noise? It's outside. They're trimming bushes. Sorry. I just I You were Look at this. I thought maybe it's your mic. Somebody's mic or something.

So, uh [laughter] anyway, since they flew in last week, I said this is just informal kind of an overview of what what's going on. They didn't need to fly back in this week, but they will fly in next week. um for the uh equipment uh the robotic equipment to go in the fulfillment center. Um two things. First of all, so uh we tried to organize the tour. A lot of people were unavailable, but Mr. Shelby and Mr. Waldridge uh and I went through the facility last Tuesday and uh I'm going to the gentleman that uh took us through lives in New. He's I don't know what his formal title is. He's basically the operations director. He runs the place. Uh his name's Andrew Fair. Like we're going to the fair. And if you want to take his number down 3176276305 because he said he would he's very proud of his facility and he would love to take you guys through. So if you couldn't make it last Tuesday, if you want to give him a call, he will set up a time and take you through. Um and uh so with that did you spend a lot of time with him? How were we there maybe a couple of hours?

Uh yeah around 3 hours. Okay. Two to three hours. So what were your perspective just on what you saw?

Oh well I think I think it's what what you kind of expect but it's it's even bigger than you imagine. uh the technology is I mean there are people still working there. It's not all it's not all robotic. Um so you know and there's a lot of people that watch it and there's also I think a big thing that Mr. Shelby and I learned was that uh even though they give us the numbers of how many people work there, there's also like independent contractors for those companies that come in and do work there. So there's there's much more people impacted uh with the jobs jobs there than than you imagine. Um, we learned that uh 15 I mean it's kind it was a little disappointing but 15% of the people are Hancock County residents including Mr. Fyer. Um I I obviously he's a constituent of mine. Um I I didn't ask how much he makes but I know he makes I know where he lives so I know he makes good money. [laughter] Um uh I mean I deduct that from my financial abilities. Um, so you know, it was important to listen and so we have constituents there and I know it's just 15% but uh the furthest person comes from Hendrickx because when Hendricks burned down they gave him the option to come out here. Uh Hrix has already built another facility. Um everything in there can fit in all everything that they do there can fit in a tote like probably like this big. And so it's all the small items that they ship out of there. Everything's for Walmart plus. Uh the location we're not in competition for location too much other than with like people from Ohio, Kentucky because they want to be in this region because they can serve about 90% of the population. About I forget was it 25% of all Walmart plus orders come from that facility. It's but but you got remember it's only the small items that they're doing. Um and they're and the reason they're building get that next building is so they can do because I asked them I said where's the TVs? They said they don't fit in the tote. That's where our next building's going to be. They're going to handle all the things he mentioned

earlier, plus televisions and any other item that can't fit in that small tote. But it's amazing how these robotics essentially from the moment that the truck comes in, a person takes the the the conveyor belt, brings it into the truck, loads it in, it goes through the whole system, and then from that point, nobody touches it until you have an order, and the person stand on a on a lift type station. So, help them help their back and they rotate positions. That's not a good thing. And they essentially they they find the item in the tote. It tells them they scan it in. They put it in the box. The boxes are all pre-made. They don't touch the boxes and that's the only part they actually touch the product is about that point unless something goes wrong where they have to to get involved. So obviously they also took us all the way to show us the place that although Mr. Fair would like to see it probably be a basketball court facility. [laughter]

It's the size of a fieldhouse. Yeah. There the they there's a room for them to expand and to bring in all this technology they'd have to bring. And they've also um and I think you could probably go into it, but they've essentially renegotiated with us a uh probably better terms for for the public. Um you know, it's not going to be a 10-year. They're going to start giving some money. I think you can go through the details there of what they're going to offer. Um so, well, no, there's they're making offers. They're going to bring jobs in. Before they had no jobs. Now, they're going to bring in I think around 200. Yeah. And I I've not seen the SB1 yet. they were.

So, so once they but it's going to be it's a little better. I don't know if that would be good enough to get passed through us, but I mean this is an opportunity that obviously we've talked about before that um you know, if you want a company like Amazon and Walmart to expand here and to be a strong presence here and obviously employ people that live here, um I can tell you hopefully Mr. Far can come here. He's very involved in the public. Um I I know Walmart pushes that with him. Um he's on the uh education foundation

education foundation board. Um his kids go to Newal. He lives in the new pal district. Uh he coaches at New uh for their third grade uh heat team, I think. Uh so, you know, he's very involved in the community and it was pretty interesting getting to to talk to a constituent that works there and that that was pretty pretty nice. [snorts] And that was not rehearsed, but I thought you're sick and tired of hearing me say the same things over and over again. It's like, but I also think that's why you guys need to try to get chance to go through there because it sort of defies description. [laughter] You've just got to see the the enormity of it all. Uh I Mitchell and I were in there a month ago and they did I think the day after we were there, they did a press tour. So they had they had some media folks going through Uh, but you know, you've got time, uh, give Andrew a call and take a couple of hours and go see it because it's [clears throat] it's the it is still the biggest building they have anywhere on planet Earth.

So, if if we're going to open the worms back up and talk about it, I mean, if you remember, I seconded the motion on the abatement, the five-year abatement the last time. So, I voted positive for for the [snorts] scenario last time, even though it was voted down. [clears throat] And I've had a lot of time to reflect on the smaller companies too coming in and wanting personal property tax and everything. And so, I started, you know, reflecting on what I pay in personal property tax and why I pay in personal property tax for my equipment, which I don't know why. Okay. It's a it's a very u non-b businessiness u penalty. Okay. It it is not good for personal property taxes. If you put it into a somebody a normal person saying you buy a lawnmower, okay, you pay a tax when you buy that lawn mower. But now what they're saying is you got to pay a tax to own that lawn mower even though it never leaves your property and and it's a piece of your equipment, but you're still paying a tax on it every year. That's what I do. Okay. With my equipment at my at my business.

Greg, didn't they change the guidelines for personal property filings to $2 million? If you're under that threshold that you don't have to file, absolutely for 2026. It's for 2026. Starting next year, it's a $2 million. You probably won't in the future. In the future. I'm trying to help you out with that. Well, yeah. No, [laughter] it hasn't been in the past. I mean, I've been

Make it positive, Mary. And and so and even when we were talking about the smaller company, it was like well there's a 30% floor and then u you know [clears throat] you were we were only talking about a 30% of them and and it's a even at a 5year it's a descending scenario only paying half the tax in five years and you're already at 30% floor. So if you calculate all that, you're they're only paying 30% of the tax anyway or only abating 30% of the tax and that goes to 10% at 2026,

right? And so it wasn't when when another company came up and said, "We want that." It was kind of like, "Yeah, you we should give them that that they're not asking for much at all." And they're and they were they were wanting one to be here for 20 years. and and uh but it is um it is a non-b businessiness uh it and it's some cases it could be a business killer and uh if if you know if if there is companies that we rely on like Walmart which we rely on Walmart way too much but there's nothing we could do about it you're doing retail surveys and without Walmart we're screwed in this community. Why? Huh?

Why are you screwed if you don't have a Walmart? Well, because Greenfield relies on Walmart for probably 75% of its retail sales, you know? I mean, we we don't have anything else here. We have the worst Kroger in the state of Indiana for food, you know. I'm I'm I'm just [cough] Newell's getting a new one. New new pal. Okay. [laughter] Yeah, great. New's getting one. Yeah, you guys in Morsville can drive to Portal's getting a a build outside. We're not getting anything here. You know what I mean? for this. Like your economic development director [laughter] needs to work on that.

It's a it's a bad deal. We're in a but uh um you know, I hope we can come to some especially and it's a negotiation. Okay. And if they've come back on the table and said, "Okay, yeah, we understand the shortcomings, you know, this and that." I'm hoping we can come to some negotiation and I'm hoping that we can encourage them to continue to stay in the community. They're not going anywhere. And continue to keep expanding. They're not going. No, I I understand. But but at the same time, it [clears throat and cough] um we're almost too greedy with our taxes. It's like um yeah, we

I'm going to tread very lightly. It has nothing to do with this project, but I I told you a while ago that there's been a nice win that something's coming here. We were competing with Ohio and Ohio doesn't have business person personal property tax. Nope. That's what that's a 24 million to be taken care of. Not at the local level. Try to find a way to close. These abatements to me are so archaic. They are obsolete that they need to do away with personal property in the state of Indiana and have an even playing field for those businesses that are competing with other states as well as ours. And uh I I believe the intent that eventually it's going away but I don't know at what date

it is Mary but remember there are counties that 50% of their AV is personal property. So Hancock County is very very lucky. Uh so the problem is that will devastate some but won't that $2 million uh base devastate them as well? What the state is trying to do is phase it over time so they can wean them and then move to 2028 lit.

I'm still I have a problem with abatements that come in asking for it and they're going to come whether they get it or not. And then I start thinking about all the other businesses out there that are paying their tax bills, paying their personal property taxes and not asking for anything. And technically they probably should be receiving it more so than the big companies who are going to move here regardless if they get the abatement or not. So we are subsidizing our fire departments. We're subsidizing E911. We're subsidizing [laughter] our sheriff's department because we are taking monies that are abated away from their budgets. And that's my vision on all of that personally. What

what is the proposal? Five years. Isn't that what they came for last time or No, they asked for 10 year. So, it was uh u because they got 10 year when they built uh they well on real estate they got 10 but personal usually never goes beyond five. They got 10-year tax abatement on the on the uh personal property in 2020. So, what's there right now? Yeah. We is it 2021 or 10 years? We got them we got them to come here because of the 10-year tax abatement on personal that that's why they asked so wow they they probably their SB1 from 2020

was uh $456 million in robotics and they got 10-year tax abatement 10% per year declining just like we did for the real estate they got it on the real estate and the personal property so they were doing 440 million so that's why they asked what they asked for is what they got the first time, right?

That the ask was consistent. Uh and uh based on what we heard last week, I mean, when they were here in July, it was the tax guy that that came. Uh when they came in 2020, u it was the government relations person. And the government relations person who at that time lived in Caramel, now he lives in Bentonville. He flew in last week and that's who's that's who was telling the story last week, uh Kevin Thompson. and he's coming back and he'll be here next week. Um, I hate to put words in his mouth, but the bottom line was uh five-year tax abatement on the on the business personal property and out of that there would be monies coming back to the community.

So, so it break that down again though. Five years, okay, that's 50% of the tax. Okay. um with a 30% floor just the I I trust because they'd still have the floor 30% floor. Well, if it's brand new propert [cough and clears throat] 126, it will not be a 30% floor, but the floor is still in place right now. The floor is still in place, but why would you put it in? Yeah. Why would you put your equipment in before January 1st if Yeah. You got to remember though, they filed their application for tax abatement back in April and everyone said, "Let's just sit on this because we don't know what general assembly is going to do."

They're they're behind. They were supposed their goal was to get the tax abatement that resolved in May and start installing in August. Now, they're not installing. There isn't there is a floor the bit to go. They they are not going to wait till January 1st. I would be shocked because because we that million square foot building they're going to do some things in it and that's a 2026 project. So they're trying to wrap up this stuff in 2025. And I'm saying this from memory because I don't have it in front of me, but the personal property 103 long that they file the first line of the uh first

form 103.

Yeah. the first uh I can't think of the section numbers I believe it's abated but it's uh depreciated down to like 45% for the first year and then it jumps that back up to 65% the second year. So then after you do all of your additions and calculations, you take that number and plug it in on the second page. And then you calculate 30% of what that base amount was in the beginning before the uh deduction for the depreciation. And they use whichever one is higher, not lower, higher. So their first year they would be paying 45% of whatever they're claiming. Let's say it's $440 million. Their first year would be 45%. their second year would be 65%. Not 30. 30 only comes into play when it gets down to years, you know, five, six, seven, eight, and it drops below 30% and then the form pulls it back up to 30% that you can't pay less than. And then that's when that 30% goes away that it's going to end up being nothing. But those first few years is a substantial amount of money. So the then the you said it's capped at 10% after

actually the the it is capped at whatever pool pool that's the word I couldn't remember. Yes generally we we associate it with pool two or three and the bottom percentage is 10%. But there are some but that could be 10 years away. You had done a a report on this one. [clears throat] Yes I did. Yeah. Pool one is more equipment that they have to replace like computer. Pool two, pool four goes all the way down to manufactur that again for years and years. They're using your numbers. I love and this already accounted for those changes in the floor and this right

subject to check. Yes, but I believe this was May. They were putting property in now, not after the effective date. But I'd have to review it um key to make sure look at that. Yeah. I just don't want you to think that the 30% is the floor because it's not not the first three or four years. It's not a total 50%. No, second year it's 65%. The first year I think it's 40 or 45%. But what's the third, fourth, and fifth? proposing some contributions also 10 uh there's one pool where that gets sent to is something that

you guys kind of need to set policy on that but their their goal is to to push back out 100,000 a year for the for each year of the abatement for the term of the abatement like the like the fire department

right yes so I said they want [clears throat] to they want to contribute a h 100,000 a year so if fiveyear abatement be $500,000 And it's kind of like wherever you guys want it. [laughter] So, uh, they're not saying they're going to put it to the fire department or the township trustee or whatever. That's a conversation they want to have with the policy makers. So, they they're saying there's a checkbook. We're going to give $100,000 a year. You tell us where you want to go. And in addition to that, this would start the 5% uh contribution new to which they pay out of their uh tax savings that goes to us and we [clears throat]

help fund HDC with that and that is a minimum of a h 100,000 a year. Randy, will they be having any kind of paperwork? Are they sending that to us for next week's meeting or will that two just beformational? No, that they should have their application. Four is five and that should Okay. And are we charging them another $500 application fee? So, it depends on which but there's definition. Well, because I mean I got that me. I already got the first reading application. Okay. So, okay. As of right now, we don't have any paperwork. So, you could [clears throat and cough]

I told him after we talk today I would say yes. You got to understand the Okay. So any more Randy any more information you want to give us?

Uh well there is a there will be a project in 2026 which they are still scoping out the parameters of that which is on the million square foot building. Um, my understanding is it won't have robotics because that's it's not that kind of a fulfillment center, but they'll probably be buying racks and forklifts and things like that. So, but that's that'll be a future conversation. They're not ready for that one today. I think with personal property going away in time that what equipment they put into that really is not going to be as much relevance to us as it is how many jobs are they going to create for income tax purposes. Correct. And again they've only talked in ballpark at this point.

200 more people is what they're Yeah. Yeah. This was zero when they first came and now they're Well, that's no zero's in the existing building that they're going to expand in. 200's in the other new there going to be jobs with this one too. Oh yeah. So I please don't hold me to these numbers but it's like 200 in the current facility and 250 that was before. Yeah. So what happened? What changed that from zero to 200? If it's just robotics that's not going to be just robotics. Yeah. That's what the first application was. They they screwed it up. They they flat out said we got that wrong. I think we're just going to start over. There are Yeah, there are some people running. This guy is flying. Yeah, but not 200 and they don't and they don't currently

well not 200 people robotics. It's mostly robotics but it's not but there's still people that monitor everything. There's people there's tons of people in the room that monitor it and there's people going around because there's those machines. So there was a box that stopped while we were there that somebody had to go and fix the the the machine and get the boxes back to going they so actual employees that they have they have just over 1,600 employees that are Walmart employees. uh Canap Knap P. Uh that's an industrial engineering firm. That's who installs the robotics and maintains those robotics. And and they've got a crew there 247.

That was like what 150 or 125? It was over 100. I was over 100 that come. Those are third party contractors that are on site all the time. Right.

So they go ahead. I I was not here when the vote was taken on Walmart. I was watching live on YouTube and what I was prepared for at the time to support was a three-year and that was based on this math at the time that if we did that and it looks like a 15% floor for pool two was assumed in this math we got but this is back in May right legislation that was not probably totally done but this assumed pool two and it assumed by the seventh year you're at a 15% floor and over 10 years with a three-year abatement only, they would pay about 17 million and receive an incentive around 8 million. So, they were paying twice as much as they were saving. And I thought that that was fair enough. I agree with Kent ideologically. I don't even believe in the tax, but the fact is departments that we have to fund are dependent on it. When we moved into the five-year abatement, when it had a 15% floor, uh it it left them paying 13.4 million and saving 12 million and that didn't include the 100,000 a year. So, you know, you're getting basically to half off, but this assumes the 15% floors in effect by year seven. Here's a correction though that I we need. Remember sea1 did say that if you're in a tiff district you do not go below the 30% floor

oh yeah pre-existing erra right that was because we told sugar foods that they wouldn't get so and remember I told you that the state was struggling with coming up with two different form 103s [clears throat] okay now remember I'm telling you [snorts] B2 [clears throat] is coming to a dealer near you that term. Okay. And so that's likely to change it

if your tip is not dependent on funding bonds for the 30% personal property. So I'm looking for a technical correction because the state's going to literally have to come up with two different form. 103s, Randy. [clears throat] And I don't know if [snorts] you heard me say that or if you heard anybody else say that, but that's what they're working on. And if you're in the district, you will be subject to that's going to be a nightmare for the assessor. Would you be uh equipped to update just the three and five year and redistribute it to to us? My staff, I texted them my lifeline and they said we did assume that, but we'll double check that. Yes.

Okay. If we before they come before us, if we could see three and five again, stops at 30. If if what he says SB1 stays in effect. Uh any anything else? Let's not get too wrapped up here. No, thank you, Lindy. Pardon me. I said thanks for the information, though. Oh, thank you. Okay. Thank you for filling us in. Well, it's been a busy year. Yes. Okay. Now I I know you're excited to go slow, but just, you know, kind of hold it in.

Randy did point out to me re remember with our credit rating, it's a team approach. The double A+ that we have is a reflection of economic development. It's a reflection of the good governance that the commissioners have done because we didn't have any undisclosed liabilities and things like that. And it's the awesome financial reviewing the fund balances and all those other things. So, it takes a team, right? And we got to stay as a really good team. And that's what the credit rating is all [clears throat] about. at an auditor's [cough] office and the fine accounting system when you go to double entry accounting and pull every hair you got out. So stay tuned.

I thought it was just my salesman ship at the at the bond or at the just be careful of of going to a new accounting system because you got to know the cost doing stuff. Oh yeah. 500,000 it will cost you. Yeah. So go. Well, let let me just bring I asked Greg to come in and start talking to us about the possible changes that we're going to be faced with. Uh this is just the start. Uh this is not a one time. So you know, you may have a lot of questions. Maybe you want to save them for the next round.

We've used up all questions. We're going to put in an hour of listening and you can ask questions, but this is not a oneoff is what I'm trying to say. Okay. We'll be doing this probably every budget meeting until 2020. We make decisions. [laughter] Yeah. And and what I almost and I quit till we're gone.

Till we're gone. And what I would almost suggest, and I'm going to have this when I do this in Monroe County next week, I'm going to I'm going to put SB1 in big letters here on the front. You might write that because what's going to be interesting is when we take SB1, and remember SB2 will not really be labeled to, but you know, we we'll have the comparative changes as we go. But Greg, won't the Okay, there are always changes coming up corrections. Can't we try and understand the basics? That's where I'm going. Are not going to change. Yeah, that's where I'm going to try and go first, Jim.

Not maybe the weeds, but

Okay. And then one of the basics that's not going to change is remember the the state was adamant about taking LIIT. This is very very important. If you don't hear anything else I say today, okay, disconnecting it from property taxes, which is how we allocate it now [clears throat] to all the different units because the county collects the rate as a whole. And the the state says distributed upon property tax. Okay. In 2028, their plan is to decouple that entirely. Okay. And you're even going to that is that decoupling is in even in the library legislation. Okay.

To what

to more of it depends on the entity. Okay. And that's going to be explained as I go. Okay. And you know so but remember the old days we used to if we had a maximum levy appeal and we got a million dollars more of taxes everybody said awesome. Now we get a extra 10 10 10% on our lit on our income taxes. So it paid dividends to raise your property taxes, right, for the maximum levy. We saw Buck Creek be able to do that. We got it. We did it before. So and even [clears throat] there was when you issue debt, that levy helped you get more income taxes. So, they've been going away from it and dissecting and taking all those out. And in 2028, it is not connected to property taxes in any way, shape, or form. Period.

But I isn't it true that kind of looking at it from 30,000 ft, the state is going to uh have us collect less in property taxes due to whatever it is you want to call it. But we're going to collect less in property taxes and we're going to have to make up if we assume we want the same level of expenditures as we have now for everything. We're going to have to make up for that loss [snorts]

with income tax or something, but probably income tax. Yes. So, we're going to have to raise the income tax to make up for that. And so talking about getting rid of income tax

the 30 the 30,000 foot level. Jim's right. Remember appeals are being taken away. Growth appeals are being taken away. The growth quotient is liable to go to zero. Remember you got four but the state said we're taking two away on average. And so, you know, the growth quotient for 27 and 28, I I I'm betting that it's going to be zero or close to it. So, Jim's right. And AV for residential will go down. Keep in mind tax rate will go up. Okay. But that's in the property tax world. Okay. Let's go to page one. Okay.

What's the front? Page one. as it stands right now. Page one of what? Page one of the 2028 document. The really thick packet the really thick one. We we already did 26. Now we're going in 28.

Yeah. Okay. So on page one, generally what's going to happen is the county is going to get the right to go up to 1.2% on total adjusted gross income in the county. Okay, notice I said get the right. Okay, and I've already showed you in the sustainability back in September what the break even rate is and I'm going to show you that again. Okay, fire protection in EMS. We know that world is going to change. We also know the state, as I've told you, I think they're going to start mandating districts, okay? A district or quadrant districts just like what's working in Allen County and some things like that. So, and how they'll do that is with the 040. And again, I'm going to break all these down in in a little bit more detail. So, the non-municipal civil taxing units, you're going to see who all those are. The max rate is.20 again on the entire adjusted gross income of the county. Both all three of these are okay. So, next one, we've got the small t cities and town services. This is remember again the county council is the supreme commander over all lits going forward after 2028 except the city of green fields they get their own right. Okay. So these small cities and towns it will be your job to levy a tax rate to fund them. Now, the first thing I get out of a county

council is, "Why would you I want to do that?" My answer is, "Why would you want 10 small municipalities that don't have any money and come to you and say, "Here's my town. Take it over now." And so, that could be the worst case scenario. I don't think you want that. Okay? I don't think that would be real fun. And so, you know, because that might mean water, sewer, that might mean the Clark treasurer, that might be everything. So, you know, that's going to be the hard one to think about. The next one then is or large cities and towns. So, Greenfield will get the right like you to levy 1.2% on the income in Greenfield.

It's in Fortville and Mccorville most population over 3500. Um, it's in here. So, I would assume yes. So, I I'll get to that. Okay. But anybody over 3500 will get their right to do their own 1.2, not just Greenfield, right? I just use that as example, but thank you, Mary. Well, I thought maybe it had to be a bigger number. The details are coming. Okay. And that doesn't come out of our No, sir.

Okay. nor does the one above it, the non-municipal. Notice that these all add up to 2.9, which is the maximums. Okay? But keep in mind that if you took the 1.70 plus the 1.20 and add the 1.20 again, that would be higher than 2.9. You're either in the city or not in the city of or in the town. That's bigger than 3500. Mary, the other one that's going to be kind of interesting is Cumberland.

Will they dissect it and say third uh 3.5 350 3,500 per uh population of Cumberland is in Hancock County. So therefore, that is a right. That one I haven't seen that jump ball. I forgot about that.

But that's going to be a strange one. Okay. So, let's go to page Paul Paul Harvey page two. I just put this in here. This is the timetable. What I'm saying is in less than 24 months, we're going to have to have our act together. And I'm saying July and August of 2027. But what I think will change, Jim, is it'll get delayed by a year. I'm pretty certain that might happen. But stay tuned. Right now, we we've got to work with [cough and clears throat] to what there is, right?

Yeah. And in July and you know, it took how long for one lit ordinance to go through DLGF? If we have 250 of them go through DLGF, we we may be starting in January of 27 to get it done by 28. So, it's it's going to be kind of intense. Okay, let's go to page three. Now, what page three is kind of summed it all up here on where we stand today. And as Kent was a quick study, he went to 2028. But right here, um, you know, is 2026 only and how it's being collected. And keep in mind, everything other than the library special purpose is basically going away. So, old gadget, public safety, economic development, PAP and JLIT. That is not if you go around to the association of counties, that is not necessarily true for every county. If they had special legislation, special purpose lit at at this point in time, it's assumed those will not go away. So you got to be careful when you talk to other people in other counties. They may have some like for instance the 60 basis points in Rush [clears throat] County I do not believe is going away. They use that for their jail. 60 basis points. That's a hell of a lot.

So does that mean that those people live in could pay up to 3.5%. Yes. Wow. But stay tuned that live in Rush County. never live in Rushville and they all max it out. Everything's maxed out plus that special. So, we don't have a special lit here. Well, we have you got this special the library special purpose in high. Yeah.

Yeah. We're going to talk at 11 and and things are going to go there. Okay. Now, let's go to 2028 page 4. Okay. What we've kind of assumed here is that the county would and and the detail to some of the numbers are following in the other pages, but this kind of summarizes where we think we will end up. And then Kent, you were saying, well, wait a minute. When you take one of those numbers from 26 and one of those numbers from 28, it might be going down. might be

and it might be going up and it might be going all around. Okay, so so stay tuned and and we kept the special purpose lit separate. Okay, now let's look at page five. This is where where we kind of get into the details. And please, please, please notice this plus. Okay, circle that plus. I tried to have my staff make that as big as we can. Okay. So on [snorts] the left hand side what we said was what is likely to occur on the county side. Well the very first one county services is 65. That is what I disclosed in the sustainability as the number that would recover what we're currently collecting out of our total 1.74 that's being charged here in Hancock County. Remember that's distributed on property taxes. Nothing related kind of right here.

Does it make up for the loss in property taxes?

No, that was a break even. nor did it really provide for you're you're going to have to give wage increases each and every year. And so that is why I believe practically they said you will need to review the lit each and every year cuz if you're property growth quotient is zero and you don't have much growth in your income. This is where we're going to be highly dependent on Randy and jobs. So if [cough] the growth quotient goes to zero, but we continue to grow, we will still get to capture the additional AV that uh we created in that new year prior to the year before, won't we?

Yes. So and and hopefully Mary, let's play that out. Let's say we get AV of 10%. Okay. And if that happens, what's going to happen is we will drive down the tax rate rather than get the tax rate to $3. Remember the state said we want everybody to $3 because then there's no more circuit breaker. Okay. Well, we will lessen the circuit breaker impact. So to a certain degree, Jim's question to me is incorrect the way I answered it because the weeds would say if we lo if we have less circuit breaker, we realize more real property taxes because remember if we have property taxes of $100 and we have circuit breaker of $20, you only get 80 in real dollars, right? Real, you know, nominal dollars. And so if circuit breaker because of that AV is only $10, then we would realize $90. And so that would be an extra 10 in the property tax pool. But we're not expecting that. Okay. And remember that would have to continue at those levels, high levels, and continue it. If

we run out of farm ground on the west side, there's going to be more houses.

Yes. But farm ground is valued. It It's going down. But yes, you're right. There's going to be more houses. But also remember, houses are going to devalue. I gave you that, you know, three or four years ago. The gross isn't, but the amount property taxes are going to be kind of going down because the homestead credit, but we won't get into that. Okay. So, what we then said is fire and EMS would be uh we just said 40 basis points. We've calculated a 0.05 for the non-municipal. So what we said was that the subtotal would be about 1.10. Now we did go ahead and add in the special purpose lit as you know my my recommendation on the library is it's currently 0.15. I think the libraries have sent a a resolution to you asking for it to be a go to the legislature and adjust that. But we'll be talking about that a little bit more at 11. Right? But I just put it in here at 0.2. Okay. The current lits down below. And I misspoke when I did not include the the current 2026 is 1.94. I said 1.74. It's 1.94 here. And that's how it split down there in the 26. Now if you go to the far right, what will happen? Well, in unincorporated Blue River, we would in we would have an additional Greenfield would have additional. So what we've done is put assumed that Greenfield and anybody over 3500 would probably go to their 1.20. Now keep in mind you also have the right to go to at current 1.20.

Okay, we did not assume you went there in this analysis. So what about uninccorporated areas? I'm kind of confused why unincorporated says 007. I mean I think that'd be zero.

Well remember, okay, go back to the first page. Okay, the first page said you get the right to fund the unincorporated or the non-municiple civil taxing units. That's what they are, Scott. Okay. You get the right to uh basically levy a tax on that area so that you can fund the townships and things like that. So stay tuned. It's coming up. To answer Scott's question though, is that because that that 007 is equivalent to what they're receiving right now in Kadget that will go away pretty much. Okay. So, you're replacing the elimination of Kadget with that 007 basically.

Yeah. So, this is the summary. Let's go to the next page. Okay.

The next page is how I got to your how we got to your 65. Okay. So if you look to the far right, you see the lit revenue of 23 million. Okay, the 23 million backs into the 65. I think the sustainability had62 and I rounded we rounded it up and what that does is brings in around 23 million at 1.2 for the county and the county only you would bring in 44 million. So the obvious question as we get to 27 at this point in time is where would you want to land? Okay, somewhere [snorts] in between. The good news is the cap has of 1.2 is not going to mandate you cut services. In some places it is, okay? Because it's not high enough in some counties. Okay? In some cities 1.2 2 is not enough. I can tell you Bloomington Monroe makes out like a bandit. Bloomington does not. Okay, here's what I I I'll just throw it out. What's liable to happen is the city rate could go up. Let's say it went up to 1.5. They we want it the county association has to make sure that the state doesn't take it out of year 1.2. Okay. So, if they say, "Oh, wait a minute. We can't have it go higher than 2.9." You with me, Scott? And the city cities above 3500 get the right to go to 1.5. And they said, "We can't go over 2.9. Let's Most of the counties don't need 1.2. Let's bring them down to one." Okay. Under the next change.

Oh. Oh. If they change the law. Yes. Okay. I was going to say it's not how written right now. Okay.

No. No. So you're you guys are on par but parody doesn't appear to be working in all the places. So stay tuned. Okay. So that's so that is the number one question. Then notice we put the note down there does not include lit for property tax relief. The state did give you the right to levy up to30 to give property tax relief. But remember, the state's giving the property tax relief too by the $300, which they're taking away from you already, okay? Because you're getting more lost revenue. Remember all that discussion over the last couple of months? And so everybody's uh I h we have not figured that in and most people are saying, "Wow, we we might look at that two or three years down the road, but at this point, you know, we got to fund our own services." So I think [clears throat] that's that's important to think about.

So you could levy an income tax of.3 on what looks like what 3.6 billion. Yes.

And then how is the reduction of property tax distributed across? So, back to page one, it says, sorry to cut you off, but allows a maximum of30 for homestead property if enacted by the county. My assumption is we would do it similar to we do it now. Remember, we used to give it to uh 2% properties and everybody and years ago we p pulled it all the way back to just homesteads and that was even that Robin would have to remember that. Um it's so it it became just [clears throat] homesteads, not duplexes, not apartments, not all. And Mary, I think you were around and Jim, you definitely were around when we did that. So So that's

So that's like 11 million dollar 9 million 205 countywide in 2026 is the Oh, that's the 0.25. I probably right. I calculated the three. Are you using 0.25 25 or where that's the actual I'm I'm not sure. Yeah. How much is our homestead credited? Well, I think somewhere in here it it credit it gave it probably tax relief is 0.25. Yeah, I did.3 because that was the max. So, okay. 9 million 11 million. Yeah. And we have how many homesteads? Ballpark.

Uh Debue. Oh, we had that in our sustainability and I forget it. I was just trying to ballpark how many dollars on average a homestead would save on the property tax by doing that. My girls are listening. Yeah, but keep in mind they're already saving because the value taxable value is going down because of the additional state homestead. And then also the lesser of 10% or $300. So key they're getting property tax relief now over the next five years scheduled out. Okay.

Yeah. And so that's why this one's on pause more on pause. You mean as far as us uh deciding we like it or on pause in the legislature? um on pause as far as most counties are concerned at enacting something to do that because they want to see the legislative impact as it finally plays out. Okay. Okay. So, and Greg, uh looking at your county, uh share of um certified lit, there's [clears throat] nothing in there for like bond payments. What do we

correct? Well, the jail lit would be for bond payment, but you would assume it within your 65. So your 65 Jim. So So that ought to you ought to be adding in also the bond payments to our need. It's assumed by adding in the 7,364 which includes the bond payment. Oh, does it? Yeah, cuz the lit jail lit of 7,364 does two things. Our bond payment and our operations.

How about the geo bonds? Now geo bonds are adorum have nothing to do with flip. And I assume there's no way, but just total curiosity on that property tax relief income tax. Um that's on every dollar of income from that you earn in a year. There's no like means of saying over income over 50,000 or anything like it is every dollar of income for every income earner. That's the way I understand it. Yeah.

And and this doesn't take into account the loss in property. Correct. 65. Correct. You know, that's why I told you the window is you know 6 the 1.20 to 65 and will change over the next year or two based driven by income growth. Okay. So it doesn't take into account income growth and it doesn't take into account need growth from the county budget. It wouldn't it was assumed to break even at this point. So give you the floor and the ceiling,

but it's not really breakin because we're losing the property tax stuff to make that up. Yeah. Are we? Well, $300. Turn pencil out right now. So yes, you you're losing that in 2026. Yes. So I don't don't don't put your don't put the 655 is the absolute floor. It would need to be higher than that period. Okay. Okay.

But it's again how high do you want to jump? And again the cities over [clears throat] 3500 or towns may not need 1.2. They may only go with 80. But can't you calculate uh how much loss there is in the property tax in version number two? Yes. Matter of fact, it's in your sustainability and I think we said it was almost a million dollars in September, Jim. Significant per year. Uh well, it it even grows more. So you take the $1 million hit period that stays.

Yes. And then it grows incrementally after that because we projected that out in the sustainability for 3 to 5 years. One more question. I it's fuzzy on me now. Remember this also impacted the rating. They wanted to hear about all this. So Oh yeah. Yeah. So but go ahead. Sorry. At the time of the last governor's election and Kent mentioned it earlier about you know the state talking about cutting their portion income tax or eliminating it. What did they decide? They did put in like a multi-year scale of peeling back their portion of income tax, didn't they?

No, I don't. That I that is frozen, I believe, key because there was a five-year phase in where it did phase down and I deal with that with the utilities, but I think it's frozen at 4.4% or something like that on the corporate income. I'm not talking about personal I'm talking about personal income. There's no I don't think there's a phase down yet that I'm aware [cough and clears throat] of. But I I'm sorry. I that billion dollar Medicaid shortfall might have held up the conversations on cutting their income tax. Either that or stay tuned. I was just going to say if there's a margin there that would be worth considering. Also, you know, if the state was going to come back and ours was going to go up, it might offset, but who knows where that

Let's put it this way. Their hands were so full with this. Yes. Yeah. So, uh, page seven. Could I ask you ju just yeah um sure not to get off uh uh the key here but are are we going to find then during this process that all the cities and the fire department everybody's going to be coming in here asking for their rate is what's going to happen

absolutely matter of fact Jim I mean there is no doubt for the good of Hancock County a team approach I cannot say this amount as that much you know too much I should say the team approach you know even for the non-incorporated and the small cities and towns I mean if you enact a rate and uh they don't have growth to be able to pay their people that's not that's going to all fall back on the county council okay okay

so hearing people working with people you getting what [clears throat] people need and enacting a proper rate probably each and every year is going to be very very critical. Okay, so this if you didn't give yourself a raise this year, you better in 27 cuz the job in 28 is going to get tough. So, [snorts] okay, side note. Um, page seven. Page seven now kind of sets up a an example for a 2028 taxpayer. And so what we said was if we take the county services rate, we add in the fire protection. Notice we did use city of Greenfield and we said non-municipal large city in town 1.20 20 the library special purpose rate that the overall rate would be 2.5. If county adopted the 1.20 like Greenfield then it would be 3.05 5 and we put what the income tax bill on 50 100 and 2 thou 200,000 would look like and yes la the income tax bill is going up if you live in a city it's going to go up. So is this the is this where we try to tell the public get to not you know get to the unincorporated parts of the county as fast as possible?

[laughter] Is this when we tell them? I mean I mean this could I mean not to say I mean Greek people may do zero. Don't get me wrong. They could do zero. That's their choice,

right? So So annexation in 2028 and 2029 may not exist. Now keep in mind that if you know I also I'm a consultant for cities and towns, okay? So the cities will say we will not give you water and sewer if you're outside the city. period. And you know, and unless you annex in and so, you know, there'll be those issues, but I I suspect that yes, you know, I live out in Hendrickx County. I kind of like to stay out there. Uh I don't want playing field to annex me because I'm probably going [clears throat] to get my 1.2. [cough] And why do I need it? You know, I'm doing fine out there in the county. So annexation will become an issue more than likely. And so and remember they they won't appeal their property tax bill, but they will get the [clears throat] income absorbed within theirs. Now remember, their income is still your income. Okay? So it would not when Randy says, you know, it's not like when we have AV grow in Greenfield, it affects the overall AV in of the county. Okay, the county's total because the county's total is is the total of everybody. So the adjusted gross income is the total of everybody. Okay. They're just going to put a virtual fence around towns and cities larger than 3500.

Yeah. I I also say because in been on the plan commission since I've been on here, we have not had many residential developments come in. They're almost all cities and towns, right? And so it'd be nice to get some more residential development and incorporate areas on the west side done if they could get utilities to them. [clears throat and cough] But remind me why you can go over 2.9 and get to 3.05. 5. Oh, if there was a special purpose lit that was in place, those have not been torpedoed. And you mean specifically on this page right here? Well, part of it is is the fact that the [cough and clears throat] 20 is a special lit. Okay.

Okay. So, that's why that's what leaves the room to go over point uh 2.0 And like he said, some might be, you know, like Rush County might be 4%. Okay. You know, at this point in time, but the point but the point two could also be 0.1. I mean that that'd be our choice, right? For the special. Oh, everything's your choice. Except in this and except for the major cities like we can't tell Greenfield, okay, you guys are going to overt tax your residents. Okay. No. All right. No, that's not your your job as county council. But but you're projecting that if I live in Greenfield, you know, my tax rate today is 1.94 and you're projecting that that would go to at least 2.5.

Yeah. And that would be the the cost of property tax property tax relief. So, so if you make $50,000, you get 300 off your home state and your spouse, but you're each going to pay an extra 1300 in big. You know, the count, you know, the city council, the city council may say, "Greg's all wet." You know, he we're not going to 1.2, we're going to go to to8. So, get off that. Okay, that's fine. But I used the 1.6. This is worst case. Uh-huh. Well, it's not the worst case for you because 1.2 could be yours. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Worst case could be 3.05. Yeah.

Yeah. But I don't know the city of Greenfield and anybody over 3500 their break even points. Nor do I know their threshold of paint. Right. Right. Right. Your income. So you want to what bracket you're in as to what percent you wouldn't have the one a tax would be make 50,000 then the house price said at this but if you make 75,000 your your rate is not the same Jim you got to control this you're right so we got a couple discussions here but I want to make this is critical what Mary was kind of saying go ahead Mary

I I was just pointing out that you're depending on what tax bracket you're in is going to drive that bus if If you make $50,000 and your taxes are are calculated at X, if you make $75,000, your taxes is going to be different than the guy. It's a curve. It's going to be you're going to be paying more. So, the more you earn, the more you pay, which maybe is a more fair tax than a property tax in my opinion. Well, the federal tax brackets do have those varying rates based [clears throat] on your, you know, your income as a single file or married file jointly or head of household. But with these income taxes, it's just a percentage on every dollar from the first dollar.

So the state, it's not like federal tax. State tax is income tax will be a flat rate on every dollar of income. Yes. Excuse me. Yeah, your question to me was the percentage calculated on state tax is a flat rate. Well, it's not a graduated rate. Okay. No tax brackets, right? The That's what I was wondering if some states have that. That's [clears throat] federal. The state of Indiana does not have graduated tax rates, right? The state doesn't even have a standard deduction. Uh very little.

It's it's nothing worth noting. You know how like it's 25,000ish or whatever for federal. The state doesn't even have that. Yeah. Cuz a lot of times you vote on state. I do. Yeah. Oh, I [clears throat] always do.

Okay. Page eight. Page eight now is kind of bringing a couple of these things together from the county standpoint. So, the county services, the fire protection and EMS. And again, we may not have to be to 040 for fire and EMS, but we really don't know in 2829 what fire and EMS is going to cost, especially if the townships lose their LIT when they lose their LIT. So, there's a lot of give and take here. So we went ahead and used the 0.40 and the non-municipal I backed into and um we went it so I'll get to that but here and then the special purpose lit so countywide tax looks like it's about 1.3 and there's another sublim notice number one limited to 1.7. Okay. So the si the the the area outside the county is also limited to 1.7. So if we took another six and add it to 1.30. [clears throat] So I took the 65 to 1.2 for the county. Then somebody else has to cut. In other words, fire and EMS might have to go to 30. Okay. So, that's pretty important to keep in mind. Yes. Deb,

I'm just And this is probably way off, but if we're doing if we're at R1 1.2 1.2 the county. Okay. And then what page are you on? Well, I'm just going back and forth. So, um, do we have to do anything for the EMS if they've got their own tax rate up? They're at 1.2. too. Do we have to do a point40? Well, they have to come through the county because the county would install that rate. That's what I was for. Remember, it's under the counties. Remember, there's only two people controlling lit. Now, it's back to the county, which you've already been controlling, right?

Yes. And then it's the cities got their right and towns [clears throat] over 3,500 got their right to install their own lit. Okay, that again real basic point. If they install it though, I mean, do are we can we navigate that point40 in any way lower? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Zero. That jury zero. The jury's out on your own. The jury's out on the 40. The jury's out on the city. Okay.

And they're deliberating over the next 18 months. and and all we're doing is replacing the old cadget in each of these taxing units. I mean, they still get their property tax, right? So, it's not like we're funding their whole budgets, but if we went and asked every fire department what they're projecting they're going to lose a year between now and then, it's probably exactly 14,729. Like, [laughter] it's it's it's going to be close. It's going to be close. suggesting there may be some what they're getting. There may be some auditable evidence that the county council will request

in order to justify as we go forward. So that's why I'm saying it probably will get even more difficult. Okay? Because sure someone may say I need 10 million and somebody might say I need 5 million and by the way you can't have two different rates. Okay? So the funding level is going to get that's where I think we're going to move to like I said districts and and schools are oh let's not even go there [laughter] they're talking about how much money they're going to lose and we haven't nothing in here says anything about that is that have you ever read the book Left Behind

or the series money they need [laughter] and that's and that's public That's probably uh you know in Avon Avon's uh Avon Indiana their very high uh referendum rate passed by overwhelming support because that's so that remember the state left them behind here but they said wait a minute you've got that referendum rate that you can still use

and remember that's outside tiff so the tiff doesn't impact acted. So that is a tool that they still have in their box toolbox and they've used this even this legisl this year. I mean yesterday when the there were very few elections in Indiana there were for some referendums. M. So, Avon. So, okay. So, the next page, page nine.

And, uh, page nine kind of sets up the fire districts. And then, Kent, when you said how, well, if we're not using, remember property taxes are not going to be used to distribute lit going forward. Gotcha.

Okay. So, how would [music] we do it? Well, right now it says it's going to be based upon the census and see the the allocation. It's going to be based upon the census service population and census service square miles. Now, what happens when you're growing by 2,000 people a year? Uh there's something called we we do do it in Westfield. It's called the special census. And I hope people don't have to start doing spens special censuses every year because can cause Ball [clears throat] State was doing it for free and it can cost 60 to 100 grand just to do one of those. But

I thought it'd be more than that.

Uh yeah. Well, probably is by now. Yeah. And so this is how this for fire and EMS is going to be. So the fire and EMS, I think the commissioners are looking at a need study. The funding study will have to follow the needs study and those two may become diametrically opposed to each other. So stay tuned, Commissioner. And so that'll be something that we'll want to the gears will kind of need to uh mesh as we go forward. the racing car scenario here. You got to get those gears to mesh as we go forward because if the needs become very very large, we won't have a way to fund them.

Okay. I think that's the real purpose the first and foremost purpose of doing Yeah. the needs, right? Yeah. Okay. So that's how and volunteers that's going to be a jump ball for the county council. County council again has got a lot to do in the future here and it's got a lot of people that it may make mad and it may happy. So it's make sure you guys don't want to run again. [laughter] So when is this 2028? Yeah, you'll still be out here so much as wait a minute. Let's resign early. Come every other month.

You'll still be here till the end of 2028. Well, I said maybe we could share 31. You might lobby for a delay. Delay. Well, if you want if they delay it a year after next year's session. Back to page 10. We got to get finished. Real quick. Real quick on number nine. You used the term earlier in this presentation mandating fire districts. You mean mandating like the state is going to tell us you will create a fire. In my opinion they have said for years and years and years. They're tired of it.

They're tired of insufficient bad service and people that just don't deal with it. And so I now will it happen next year, year after, whatever. I think the answer is that's the way they can mandate it back on the county council and say you've got the funding. You've got to you've got to get it together.

Okay. And there's some I mean [clears throat] it's costing Martin County million five. They didn't even have the money. But Knox County said bye. We're done with you. And they were because they were regionally sharing. And the regionally sharing has worked in a little bit in the past until your partner says, "I want out of this marriage. [laughter] I want to be single again." And so, you know, that causes a problem in real life and in fire departments and EMS too. [snorts] So, okay. Um, so they have page 10. Can you kind of expedite finishing up because I think we're getting kind of

fully absorbed and we'll we'll then continue on next month.

Yeah. And so the other really the most significant go to page 12 which is kind of the large cities and towns and this is Mary. You've got Fortville, Cumberland, and McCordsville. And notice we just said we we're gonna assume [clears throat] that um they get a population higher than 30 because notice they're 3461. I I say go grab a few people and bring them into Cumberland and then do your special census. And so you know so you can get out from underneath the county council. Okay. And so um but that would be the money and again we did assume the highest part they may say no you know we we really won't go to the max. Okay but you know it's it it would provide most of them extra [cough] dollars [clears throat] uh going forward you know so and they will review it annually too. Okay. So,

yes, put this under your pillow. It's thick enough that if it doesn't soak in by osmosis, it'll give you a crook in your neck and you'll remember to pick it up and look at it again. And yeah, and so to work. What's that? Osmosis. Oh, [laughter] pardon me, Je. Go ahead. So, um, that's where I we'll pause. Okay. So, and questions that we [snorts] have, I think that we want Greg to address next month, shoot them maybe to me and I'll get them to him or you can shoot them to him directly. Let me know what you want on my homestead and my credits and

because they're going to be a lot we'll have that ready as well. We'll bring him in again.

Yeah. I think so much of this is still just an undecided amount of information and it's it's to see see what's coming. Yeah. And and and to see how it changes and be very very cautious on remember there's two there's the city council and there's the county council. That's all it's coming down to boiling down to. So what goes on legislatively right now is very very important for you to keep your eyes [clears throat] on that ball. Okay? And I I I can from a financial standpoint, I'm then going forward legislatively, you know, the financials is the going to be the key, the financial impact.

I found this very helpful. Well, thank you. And and the followup here is uh we're wedging into uh Rhonda who is our legislative. It sounds like we didn't we picked up a leg scenario. wanted to uh just bring us up to date on some of the legislative stuff and maybe sounds like we just you wanted to say something about the library funding of keeping this going from the legislative part. Maybe what we're talking about is we didn't have any help until just

let me just make some brief comments about the upcoming special session that's no longer a special session. Um so thank you for having me. Rhonda Cook with Legis Group Public Affairs. I'm uh one of your team members on your lobbying team for Hancock County uh that represents you at the state house and before the general assembly. Um so the latest on that is that the governor called a special session for November 3rd. Late last week the speaker of the house and the president prom of the senate released statements that said they will not hold a special session. It will be part of the regular session. So, if you remember, every year we go back in for organization day. We do this year on November 18th. They're going to be two weeks between December 1st and December 12th to handle really focus on two different items. One is congressional redistricting and the other is they want to look at some tax reform department of revenue to adjust to changes made in the big beautiful bill. So it kind of gives them a fall back because I don't think right now they have the votes in the Senate. I think they have 14 votes right now. That's what I'm hearing. Um so they can always do that tax reform legislation too and kind of not call it, you know, they gathered for nothing. There's another reason they're uh gathering and uh also it shouldn't cost any extra money because it's going to be part of the reg regular session. Then they'll come back again in January and kind of start things up again. But probably um they'll have to end early because they're taking you know two weeks of their session time during December. So I bet you they'll probably finish sometime in February instead of March 14th uh when the date that they really have to be done. So it's a moving target every day. And I will just say that today it

was announced that Kansas decided not to call a special session to do their redistricting. So, some of those Midwestern states, we're, you know, we stand with our integrity or or whatever you want to say, but, you know, might be a little bit harder to push some of the Midwestern values. So, okay, in the packet that I just passed around, um, this is the list of proposed legislative initiatives that Legis Group has assembled for both the council and the commissioners to consider. And I sent around an email with this information, so you have that by email, too. Um, the first one is the library lit. I want to go into that a little bit more, which a great segue with Greg and he got all the we were talking about rates and everything here just recently. So, this is all going to be very relevant. Um, the second one is to amend um in the statute. I don't know if you knew this or not, but county councils actually have to publish in the newspaper if they want to have a special meeting. That's no other governing body has to do that. And so I would like to see maybe that change and I know the auditor's association also feel like they're the ones that normally do that notice. Um I've also mentioned that to the county council association. So that might be something that we work on that would help the council. So, um, the third one is, um, there's some language that was passed last year that I think is a little unclear, becomes really relevant for us now as, um, we have [clears throat] an electric generation facility that's looking to maybe locate in our county. And, um, you can read through that one. It's probably one for the commissioners to consider, but I feel like it's a little vague in the language that they put in place that was dealing with moratoriums on mainly wind and solar. And so that might be one that um you want us to pursue on behalf of Hancock County. [clears throat] Um number four is um working along with AIC, the county association, auditors

association, and the commissioners association for clarifications in general about Senate enrolled act one changes. I know we have the library lit that we specifically here in this county need to address, but then also um there was um a drop in some language that didn't carry over when they did Senate enrolled act one that's about the over 65 credit. The auditors association are very concerned about this one because it says that um it does not have the language in that says an over 65 credit only applies to someone's homestead and they have to live in the state of Indiana. So the way it reads right now, they could live out of state and it could be on a second home. And that's something they just quite frankly missed when I talked to staff after that passage that really needs to be reinstated. Um the other one is the distribution formula they set up for fire and EMS in Senate Act One. It's a little concerning I think for especially Hancock County because we have a lot of interlocal agreements and mutual aid agreements about for instance Greenfield Fire Terry Fair fire territory provides um paramedic service to Blue River Township. Now the way they've structured the distribution of lit money is it's based on population for those entities based on service territory. So, how do we determine that service territory when Greenfield just does one little thing for, you know, Blue River Township? Is it service territory all of that? Is it Greenfield or is it I don't know. It we just don't know. So, we need to get that clarified. Um, I think that's going to be something that needs to be flushed out. Um, the sixth one is I think we're going to see a discussion maybe not so much. It'll it'll start this session, but it'll probably carry on into the long session about township reform. And in your email, I sent you a a packet about a

proposal um that was from AIM, the city assoc cities and towns association, as well as Mayor Scott Fadnesses of Fisers about an approach to how we could begin this township reform process. I know that even here in Hancock County, um the commissioners have gathered all the townships, uh representatives together to begin talking about that here and what that might look like in Hancock County. So, we want to have a seat at the table on behalf of Hancock County in that discussion. So, that's where I hope to, you know, be engaged in that process on behalf of the council and commissioners here. Okay. So, um, let me go back now to the first one on the list, which is the lit clarification that we know needs to be changed and we need an update. I will also say that you can look at when it starts to say in your packet draft language number one, you can look at the Hancock County LIT statute and kind of see the text of that right there. It's Indiana code 63.679. And I first want to just point out what the problem was when this language passed so you understand the problem. So the draft that you're looking at if you look at draft language number one to that section the bold language is the language that I'm suggesting that we go in and try to get made and striking out what if you see the strike through. Okay. So the language now reads, "The county fiscal body may by ordinance allocate part of the tax rate imposed under 63.65 before its expiration not to exceed a tax rate of,500s% to a property tax credit against the property tax liability imposed for public libraries in the county if all territory in the county is included in a

library district." Okay, so here's the issue. the PTR rate is going away under Senate Enrolled Act One. So when it says you're supposed to allocate a part of your tax rate for libraries, we don't have anywhere to allocate that out of because we don't the PTR rate will no longer be there. So, we either need to say what rate we're going to take that out of or more I guess the better route would be to say it's a special rate that is on top of the 2.9%. So, that's how we get to the 3.05 as as you brought up. So, right now um I've talked to both the Senate fiscal staff and the House fiscal staff. Um the Senate staff said that they believe that all the special rates in chapter 7, which this one is 36 3.67 are rates that are on top of the 2.9. But when you talk to the House fiscal staff, they said yes, but the way yours is worded in current law, you're to pull that out of your existing rate. It's supposed to be an allocation out of the Okay, so you're following me on this, right? Okay. So now let's look at this other packet that I gave you. Okay. So current this is right now currently we have a 1.94 lit rate in this county total and we have um the property tax relief rate can go up to 1.25%. So we're doing 0.25. Greg, if I say anything wrong about this, you can let me know. You've seen this sheet before because I took this right out of the packet from when I presented last time. Okay. So, of the 1.25% rate, 0.25% you have allocated to property tax replacement and then you have the 0.15%

special PTR library rate. So, that's all coming out of 1 point that 1.25% property tax ptr. Okay. Just wanted to remind you on the next page, the council put in action um changes to your lit formula for 2026. So I think I have those highlighted. Um you're moving five basis points from your special purpose rate to um public safety and economic development. Two are going to go to public safety and three are going to go to economic development. And so now the library special rate for for um the special rate for libraries will be at um point will be at 1 10% or 010. Um so the reason you did that I believe is because um the libraries can only have the their replacement is only based on their property tax calculation. So you basically go along as if the libraries are going to get property tax revenue. You do that whole calculation and at the end of the day you swap out revenue from this special purpose lit rate to replace what they were getting in pro what they would have gotten in property taxes in property tax revenue. So they could since the property taxes are not growing as fast as the income the lit is, they're getting a surplus in that fund and they have no way of getting to it. They have no way to access it because it only replaces the exact amount as they would have generated into property tax as property taxes. Okay. Next page in that packet, we're going to look at the rate structure under sea 1.

[clears throat]

Note that 1.2% of the rate is reserved for county services and that's out of the 2.9% overall county rate. So, I'm hoping that we can say this new this new language that we're going to go after is going to be on top of the 2.9 because if they make you take it out of your county shares that 1.2 2 that kind of damages you going forward. I I I just think that takes away a lot of your flexibility um to have that full 1.2 for county purposes. Everybody following me on all this? Like it depends on if we're going to take it out of an existing rate or if it's going to be a rate on top above and beyond.

A lot of this is still unknown though. Correct. Until Well, this is known right now. All of this is known. Well, it's known, but until SB2 coin phrase, I'll pay you my dollar [snorts] comes around, we're it's all subject to change. Um, true. Because we have two sessions now, 20 the 26 and the 27th session where changes will be made to SEA1 and it's a moving target. Right.

Right. And I will just point out this, you don't have to do anything in the 2026 session. um you would need to do something in the 2027 session because this is set to go into place in 2028. So you could take this time to kind of gather your thoughts and decide what you want to do about this and we could approach changes in 20 um7 for 2028. There's not abs you're not under the gun for this next year but we should be thinking about what we want to ask for. Um, so now to keep the status quo, the libraries have you remember you changed the rate down to 010 in this last lit change, but you do have the authority to give them a 0.15. They are have passed resolutions and now want to take that up to either a 0.2 or a 0.25. The big question is, is that going to come out of the existing county aotment or is that going to be on top of the 2.9% rate? That's the question we don't really know and we have to get clarified. So my question to you now is would you like me to go in and try to work on getting at least up to the 0.15 and get that changed so that it is a rate on top of the 2.9% rate. What's your feeling about that? I guess I just need some direction and what you want us to go lobby for this session. My understanding that Vernon Township Library Services and the County Library Services have come together and reached a resolution as to how they want to operate. They each have hired their own attorneys and they've each hired their own lobbyists and they're going to pay their attorneys and lobbyists out of their pockets. So, I would not want to see us spend money

with you to lobby on the libraries behalf and focus on the other items that you went through and let them do their own thing and then once they get the SB12 whatever um process through as to how it's going to end then then they can present their case. And I know Greg Geras is the uh financial planner for the um county library. So, he's well aware of everything that they're trying to work on and uh I know they brought their lobbyists with them today if we had any questions. So, I feel like if we move forward with with your company doing this, we're just duplicating work and that it would cost the county to pay you to do this work that they're going to be doing the same work and they're paying their own lobbyists and attorneys to do.

You have two separate interests, though. I don't represent the library. I represent the county, so I need to know what the county wants to do, which may be different than what they want to do.

Yeah. I think her point is if anyone goes and lobbies, you're [clears throat] lobbying that in Hancock County, we have a very special situation where taxpayers have a higher maximum income tax rate than anywhere else in the state. And so does this council condone the pursuit of being having the highest maximum income tax rate in the whole state for the sake of the library fulfilling what the financial plans they've made. And I do believe that we have to take a position on that. I mean, I wasn't I'd like to hear from [laughter] I'd like to hear from We need to be looking out for ourselves.

I Oh, I agree. I'm not saying we're not looking out for ourselves, [clears throat] but I don't see a point in paying for two services that are going to come up with the end result of the same possible answer. And um I've spoke with Greg about it. I spoke to both of their librarians about it. And it sounds like everything is on common ground and everything that you're proposing as well is the same common ground. So without [clears throat]

can I key what I'm suggesting is and and Rhonda's right. We need council direction. Okay. So, what I suggested is and we sent a a draft of a resolution to Scott with [snorts] Mary's uh knowledge. And so, generally it would be we're we're behind this getting the.20 or the 0.25. It was set at 0.25 only because it would be a max. the.20 is making up for the current 1.5 and the PTRC that we're losing, what the libraries are losing, and that was going to be a draft resolution. We were hoping you might entertain next week. Okay. Simple little paragraph saying, "Yeah, we'd be interested in it." Um, and then I think that gives everybody guidance that we've got to have the county council either say yes or no. There's no doubt.

Well, and if it's the 02 cap for non-municipal taxing units and that includes I mean you have to keep we would have to keep the library and the township under2 or no? So, so the yes the you would under under the way it is now and so that's [clears throat] why we're saying what makes the most sense is just take the you may funding your libraries with a special just continue that if you want to okay and add that in there because ultimately when you calculate the non-municipal you won't use the library so it won't be that much higher right and remember the county council is the supreme commander over that calculation [clears throat] at that

do you see what I'm saying one and we have the space you know we were talking about well we need 65 and then if we make up for lost property tax revenue there's going to be a margin there we still can't be at 1.2 too, I wouldn't think. And so I think to Rhonda's point, we have plenty of room to do what we're talking about with the libraries within our own tax rate. But what if legislation in the years to come tightens and tightens things and county needs their full 1.2 and we can't because we've already committed to allocate part. You can cut you can always cut it. I think Yeah, I think you're right. Right. I don't think that's an issue.

But every other library in the state gets property tax money and and ours would be where the county has to take it out of its aotment because we're unique. But you don't want to go out on that. Let me ask you this, Rhonda, because Representative Lawson and I spoke recently at a really high level about this.

Yeah. And um it was pointed out that to do what we've already said that we would agree to that we would be supportive of for the libraries because they've come to their agreement is going to require revisiting legislation. And that because we are the only library in the entire state or the only county doing it this way. Now you're opening up for every other person who represents other constituencies at the state house to go, well actually what about my county or why are they doing that or actually it's too much. Do you foresee taking it to the state being an he, you know, he was ultimately saying you could end up with less. They could say actually we want to revise this legislation down from what you've been doing. So I think you could break it down into like questions and then you answer that question and it leads you to the next question. Right? So the first question would be assuming we follow the existing structure of our language and the way it was built where we had to allocate something out of the existing county rate for it started out being edit and now it's PTR. So assuming that we now have to take it out of an existing county rate, what rate would we take that out of? Are is the council okay with taking out 0.15% the existing rate that the libraries are getting from the county general share rate 1.2 or would you take that from the non-municipal taxing rate?

Isn't this all hypothetical though? I mean every every comment is made is would would you or can you go down we have to fix it because you don't you will have zero right now we we have no committed firm answers to these questions until the next session is given a chance to hear the lobbyist explain what they feel is best for our county and I really really don't want to pay for this twice I don't want them to absorb the cost of what their lobbyists are going to be doing. And then I don't know what the commissioners have budgeted for your contract this year, but I could see this being thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars that you're going to charge.

It doesn't cost you anything more. I get paid no matter what. [clears throat] The same amount. So, she's doing a flat rate. You're doing a flat rate. So, you're not thousands of dollars, right? Can you finish what you were saying? I would like to hear the rest of what [clears throat] would say. So I guess the first question is assume let's say chairman Thompson says that I never intended for you to have beyond 2.9% in your county. You need to take it out of one of your existing rates. Which rate do you want it to come out of? And is the council okay with that? Cuz right now it's coming out of your PTR rate and that's going away and here's the rates on this page that you have to choose from. So what does the count give me direction? What would what do you want to do if if that's

Let me ask you. What's your advice? We don't want to take it out of any pardon me. We want it added on top. Special no other option. Then the other question technically we might say Rhonda we take the only other opt but then we might also say the city of Greenville has to take it out of their 1.2 gives them guidance. See that gets into a lot of what proportionately or and and again Greg

I'm I'm fine with it coming out of the 1.2 too because I I agree with the I I think I think Thompson's probably that's probably his intent. That would be my intent was that hey I want to cap this at 2.9 which is less than the state rate because otherwise I mean we're going to have counties we already do have counties are way over 3%. And I think it's time to get control continue to have I know but I think I would like to see them truly [clears throat] cap it at 2.9%. So that people, you know, otherwise, I mean, especially here. I mean, you're 1.94. I'd love to see you. I don't want to see people's, you know, income taxes getting killed here.

I like seeing FSG, who represents our county, also being involved with representing the libraries. So, it's it's both sides are talking and it's a mutual understanding. And his [cough and clears throat] presentation to them is going to be similar to the presentations given to us. It's a financial consultant opinion.

Right. So my my first if I would advise you I would say at first get the pro get the problem solved with the existing law and don't talk you know don't talk about the additional rate that they are wanting to that could be second we first have to figure out what you want to do with if it doesn't go on top and it goes within the one of these rate structures is that a is that a nogo

is that [clears throat] like we to figure out a new way to structure library funding from going forward or um I I understand what Greg's saying technically now that Greenfield's going to be raising their own rate why shouldn't some of it come out of that rate that way the county doesn't [clears throat] but you can't you can't force it right probably all the municipalities that are served by I mean if you're writing a new law that's totally different than the past I guess you can do whatever you want to propose As long as you can get the guys downtown to agree to. No. Or how? It's the state. Huh? It's the state. That's what I mean. Yeah. The guys downtown at the state house, right?

Oh, I thought you said downtown. Oh, no. No. So, you So, we would write it to say that some portion comes from each municipality over [clears throat] the 3500 population or something like If you're if you're taking it out of your cap, again, I thought option number one would be keep it the way it is and bring it to.20 outside your K. But you were still going to have to go downtown anyway, right? Because you want the 0.25 max, which is over the 2 allowable anyway, right? And then is nothing to do with the give them a chance. This is a this is a totally separate

Okay. Okay. Totally separate way because you've been totally separately funding here in Hancock County with the 0.15 and part of it that she explained very well part of it out of PTRC. Okay. Now to make that up you need approximately.20 [clears throat] to make up both of those parts [snorts] [clears throat] just to be even.

And the suggestion is the 15's already out. Keep that keep the 2 out. Okay. Because then you're you're basically keeping it the way it is. Otherwise, yes, Scott, the 20 will come off of your 1.2. Now you're at one. and your buffer between you and anybody else has gotten a little bit tighter,

right? Then you're really treated differently than every other county and the amount of money you have to spend for county purposes. So I thought the least evasive action would be say look we want to keep Hancock County libraries funded the way they are and in order to move forward we need to uh please give us that right because we're the uh fiscal body and the fiscal body can then decide [clears throat] you know where each of those rates including that

if you put it in the law that [clears throat] it's 20. This doesn't mean the council has to take it to 0.20. It just allows you to go up to that maximum. So you could come back here and say we want it to be 0.1. I mean that's going to be a local decision. We don't have to decide right now. You do not have to decide right now. But yeah, I'm comfortable with letting the libraries continue on their own path. Think about I would think that you would want a seat at the table if they're going to go in with their lobbyist and start making changes to this statute. I would think you would want to be there and have us have a voice.

Well, I I think we will. We'll have Greg as their representation reporting back to us. Um, and they do have a lobbyist. He's here, as a matter of fact, if if anybody wanted to ask him a question. I just I guess what I'm trying not to do is force this down their throat. And that's the way I feel this is going right now. Well, I'm hungry for lunch. I think we had a lot of let's just [clears throat] that and let's think about so did we just give direction for them to not even ask if we can keep the special rate special and not include it in our 1.2 because no

it does make sense to ask to retain [clears throat] the the liberty to keep it separate. It's always been separate. we are a unique situation so it's not in the existing verbiage but with clarification they might say well you're a special situation and no you don't have to take that out of your 1.2 to and it just leaves your options open. I think we don't [clears throat] give any direction right now, but think about it. Okay. Is this on the next agenda or you can still do this in 2027 if there's you can, but if they're going to start making changes without us, then that's a problem.

I I I don't distrust them. I don't think that they're going to go out and try to do anything that they haven't already presented. And it says it in the resolution that we all got a copy of if you've read it. It it lines up just with what [cough] [clears throat] David. Wait, David. Hey, come up here, David. No, no, no, no, no, no. Let's let's let's end this discussion. Okay, then then we're just going to end it now with no more further discussion and nothing nothing moving forward for the until the next council meeting or until you want to come back again. We're going to think about it. Okay, perfect. Okay, good. Here, Jim. You want the gavvel? Oh, you auditor visit.

We got to approve the minutes from last meeting. Uh, move to approve the October 1st, 2025 minutes. Second. All in favor? I approve. Auditor. Yes. Um, I have a couple of invoices. It should be in your packet. Um, we want to make sure we keep FSG happy. So, if we could find some money to pay them, that would be great. We would highly appreciate it. [laughter] Well, the government's shut down. I'm sorry, but you're lucky. You're lucky we're too late. [laughter] Um, and I'm not sure where we'd want to pay that out of other than

food and beverage, which we do have the money in there. Um, and uh, also the the chairs. You guys had mentioned that you would pay for the chairs if the commissioners wanted to go ahead and purchase them. I thought there was no motion made. Bill said that they would take care of the chair. Well, we couldn't find a motion either way and we know that there's no money. I just remember when we talked about it originally because I said I would try to find a vendor and we actually found one all that and and Bill said, "Yeah, go ahead and and find someone." He said, "We'll take care of it." Do we have appropriated funds in food and beverage? How much? 116. But some of it's earmarked. No, none of that's earmarked. None of that's

okay. None of that's earmarked. Now, we do have for our appropriation for next week. We've got 90 of it approved. Now, that's what's 90 of your county council line item, too. Yes, we do. We could be generous and buy those chairs for We spent too much money. So, then we retire, we can take these home. How much were these chairs? $8,000. You guys hadn't bought chairs for 20 years and they were they were malfunctioning. Was [clears throat] there some tra? There's 12 new ones. We're going to There's one back here that has a replace. Does anyone before I make a motion have a suggestion outside of food and beverage for the funding source? Because if not, I'm going to make a motion for food and beverage.

Well, instead of food and beverage and we have a line item [clears throat] within the council budget, can we It's only 2,000. Yeah, but let's can we go ahead and appropriate that part of it towards the charity? That's probably not appropriated. Is it appropriated? The council has a fund. The council has a fun. We have a line item of a couple thousand dollars in our council budget. I mean, we might as well put that towards that was for me. That's out of the commissioner. That what you're talking about the line for expenses? Yeah, there's a lineup. I think let me look if there's maybe not very much. No, it's only a couple thousand dollar. Yeah, but if if I think she's wanting to clear it out if she can.

Yeah, we can just clear that out and then the difference can come from food and beverage if we need. Is that [clears throat] a motion? Well, she's looking Mary says I can. I paid $6 or $700. There's $941641. Is it appropriated? It is. I just don't know. Has money's been spent out of there? Has money's been spent out of that line item? Yes, quite a bit. For what? I don't recall us appropriating anything out of that line item. Well, we've had some lunches. When do we have to stay for the farm meetings and you pay for lunches out of that line item?

Training conferences, classes. [laughter] That's bad. Conference. Well, it's the only way to get the judges to come. I mean, if you offer lunch for the jud, they always I'm going to remember that next time I get invited to a meeting. I want lunch. You get a turkey sandwich from Jimmy John's. No special orders. Bummer. [laughter] Bummer. And chips. No drink. [snorts] No drink. Oh man.

Don't worry. Super G invoice and the furniture. We've got a total of 26,799. So, if we could do 26 26800 to be paid from the existing 941 in the council line, the rest be paid for from food and beverage. That would Okay, I'll make a motion to cover the $8,49.99 of furniture costs uh first from the $9416 remaining in the council fund with the balance to be paid from appropriated food and beverage. I'll second that. All in favor?

I opposed. Passed. [clears throat] So, what what's your note on the FSG uh invoice that usually comes from the um BOC budget? Yes, they um obviously there's just been some additional expenses with you know their legislative stuff. Are you saying they don't have the money? Correct. Okay. I would have paid it from there first [laughter] [clears throat] and we'll be bringing our resolution for the end of the year so that we can do our budget transfers and shoring things up at the December meeting. Well, we need that from food and beverage. Is that No, no.

You know the resolution we do every year so we're not we don't have any shortfalls. No, no, we haven't we haven't voted on voice. Oh, I thought she only sent the one at the end of the year. She's going to take it out of that. Oh, I remember combined all of it. I remember. No, she didn't. What? You didn't You didn't You talk about the FSG invoice. Oh, no. No, I don't. No, [clears throat] I didn't talk about the FSG invoice in there. No, I'm sorry. We still have that one. Yeah, I didn't know you were asking. I thought you were saying you didn't need a

And the 18 or 17 18,000 that the commissioners need can come out of that amount of money that we appropriated that you could do loose in payments for things that we weren't anticipating. That that'll be next year. I was I thought we were done with these motions. So I was already talking about the resolution that we do annual two separate things. So you are looking for a motion to pay this FSG invoice. Yes. And there is still enough appropriated funds in food and beverage. And is there anywhere else that someone would prefer discuss? Well, they said they don't have enough. The board of commissioners ran out of money their budget line item for this. [clears throat] So it's food and beverage. So yeah, we have no other choice cuz Yeah. Otherwise, it would have been from their their budget.

I'll make another motion to pay the FSG invoice for $18,750 from food and beverage. I'll second. All in favor? I I opposed. Pass. Thank you. That confusion. I thought I thought when