County Council - Special Meeting

the meeting to order. Kits. Okay. This is a special meeting today to discuss the 2026 budget. Um the 27th pay issue that uh we started with at the last meeting and couldn't finalize. So um we're going to begin. Greg, I didn't know you were going to be here. So, oh yeah, they all asked me to be here. Jim and Keely after they called me, right? I I as I told Key, I think calling you into a meeting and having to pay you for a meeting that they should run it by me first just to make sure that we had the funding and the ability to to do these things. Super. Okay. Thank you.

All right. I'll let you go first. It sounds like uh you did some kind of prep work for Jim and Keely. Yeah. Well, for the for the county as a whole. Yeah. So, what I've got I sent out this example. Okay. Uh, and or I I handed it out and you should have it in front of you. No. Did you Did you pass it? It's right here. Pass it down. Oh. Oh, stuck it. Keing. There you go. Oh, wait. Wait. Here's I got mine. She's hiding. There's two different ones. No, it's all the same. It was stuck together. Whoops. I did it backwards. You sent that to an Excel this morning about 11 today, right? Correct. I sent it to you as an Excel. In case you wanted to plug something in.

Well, we we did. We plugged them in. Mary's got some of those plugged in already.

Okay. So, this is an example, a live example of another county. And uh 2025, if you see, I I've taken actually one, two, three, four, four different classifications. And I said what what we normally do in order to do 27 pays is we take the salary and I said 25. The actual example I used or the actual was 24 but I used 25 here. You divide by 280 hours which is the standard 40 time 52 weeks gets you $3841. If we don't apply an increase in 2026, we would have 2,160 hours. We would take the 38841 which was is being paid in 25 times 2,160 and the basic salary total salary would be 83,897. So that would be the 3.85% 85% that we ran for everybody and and showed before in other uh versions in total. Then in 27 I just said okay what happens if we have a 3% increase we go back to the 25 rate of pay which is 38.841 841 row one. We multiply that times 3%. We get a dollar a hourly amount of $407. Multiply that times 20080. The salary would be 83,213. So as you can see it's higher than the

25 number. It is lower than the 26 numbers, but that's sheer fact that 27 pays took place. So this is you could in in the area where it says no increase. Obviously, if you said no, we wanted some kind of increase in there, you'd put that in and then do your calculations. But this is how we've kind of addressed it at this point in time. Assuming we are just funding the 27 pace in 26. So

but you're suggesting basically that would that equates to undoing the 3% raise keeping the paychecks the same and the raise is the 27th getting the 27th paycheck. Correct. So there is no I like to say on an hourly basis there's no raise in the hourly basis but because you get 260 hours your check is higher by 83,000 it's goes up to 83,897. So I think we're seeing exactly the same thing.

So so here's a question for you. Um when we do we say we call yearly salary. We look at yearly salary. We don't look at like each paycheck. We don't talk about W4s all these. We don't get in all the micro details. We talk about yearly salary. Is a yearly salary when we do it at a government level across all all of Indiana. Is it based on the days 365.24 days a year or is it based on the hours? I believe it's based upon the hours and that's how this is again a live example and I I I don't you got Hendricks County this is actual example of how we've done 27 pays period

but that would bas it would mean that we're reiging on the whole department head discretion thing and that everyone is getting their raise next year is equal to one extra paycheck or what that was in 2025 this scenario and that option. Yeah, that's a scenario. That's one scenario. That's one scenario,

right? But I just wanted you to see the 2080 and the 2160 creating it in an hourly rate gets it gets it to the utmost decimal place. So there's no, you know, and then we convert it into an annual salary and then starting in 25 27 we're back on course for another six or seven years. Does anybody else have any other questions for Greg? But uh in under that scenario in 27 uh the salaries have gone up by the uh 27th pay, right? That's No, sir.

No. If you looked at this calculation, okay, what I said was in 27, you use the hourly rate in 25 of 38.841. You increase that by 3% for the 27 pays. You then basically multiply that times 2080 and you get the 83,000. So you are basically going to on the hourly rate in 25. if that's what you choose.

So if we go with an alternative scenario that is where we go ahead with the raises that we have contemplated plus the 27th pay and we say for example we're not going to give any raises in 27. uh does the base pay then 427 get elevated by the 27 pay in 267 to make that

so here's the way I would explain it in 25 we would take that 80,790 and we would basically escalate that how much divide it by the 280 hours. So do the increase. Okay. Divide by 280 hours and then multiply that times 2160. In 27 you'd still use 2080 hours. So there would be that increase but the 27 wouldn't continue on. Are you with me? And for the 27, we don't know, you know,

pay not to continue as part of the salary in 2027, we would need to change the way we do our salary ordinance to only state a bi-weekly pay and not a bi-weekly and annual. I'm almost most people I've seen are doing it hourly and it can easily be done hourly or I I think bi-weekly would work the same. I I've always done it on an hourly basis. Hendrickx County is doing it hourly and um bi-weekly also, I think. Yeah, I've I've seen hourly, bi-weekly, and annual. I've seen or we do bi-weekly and and annually, but I don't think we want to continue to include annually.

Yeah. And and the answer is you can modify your your salary ordinance. You modify that each and every year. And you know, I don't know how detailed Hendrickx is, but this one they they put a chart attached to the salary ordinance. And so it's got everybody in there. And by the way, the departments down there were like a clerk and auditor and and that. So that's why I put those down there. And you can see that would increase too. But you you could do what you said first before you do the calculation. You could modify the 25 P pay for let's say you wanted to give someone 5,000 department head uh one you wanted to give them 5,000 more you'd adjust that on the 25 then you would do the calculation and then it would work through

and that's how and and I've seen that done too. So

Greg I appreciate your work on this. I know nobody expected me to be quiet today. I do want to appreciate everybody coming back for another meeting because it did take me another day to pro process what was happening so I could make some intelligent decisions. I am not for reigging on something. I'm not for punishing anybody because our calendar system is all screwed up because the Earth rotates at a different it doesn't rotate at a perfect speed around the sun. Okay. Um, so I'm going to simplify it for me because I do have like 25 families that rely on me every week for money. So you work 40 hours, you get paid 40 hours. Okay? There's no way of stopping that. You stop that, you might as well just shut everything else down. Okay? Uh, we do have the money. We've been planning for this for the whole time I've been here. We have $7 million sitting in a rainy day fund that we will never use. Never. It'll never be a rainy day. I lived through CO for four years. The worst possible pandemic the world has ever had. We didn't spend a penny. We didn't use it once. If if COVID killed millions of people, shut the government down, shut the world down, and we still didn't have to use our money, then short of a nuclear bomb dropping in the United States, we're not going to ever use that money. Okay? And if a nuclear bomb drops in the cities in the United States, money ain't going to be the issue. So simplistic for me, we pay it. It's It's not our fault. It's not their fault. I'm not going to punish the employees because the last Friday of the of the year every 11 years it ends up a payday on on that. No reason. They they still work the

week. Nobody goes home. Nobody gets shorted. And I'm not going to short them their raise. And we take it we we we take it out of general fund because we have a big general fund balance. And then if we get problems and we need to back something up, we back it up with the rainy day. and then we turn around and pay it back if we want to over the next few years. I I don't foresee a point we'll ever ever use any of that money. And this to me is the only thing that I think even anybody else would ever agree to me is a rainy day.

What are you saying happens then going from 26 to 27? Because I can be on board. I don't want to reneig on anything we already said either. I think it's going to create a disaster and a mess and I don't want paychecks to go down either. So, I think we're all on the same page there. But what I don't want is to give with a raise, give the 27th pay with which after FICA, Perf, and work comp is almost a million dollars, and then just next year add on top of that again. I mean, for me, it would have to be contingent upon we are giving you twice the raise we said we were going to this year. So, next year, we won't be How are we giving them a raise? twice the amount that we set

because it's based on a yearly salary. That I think that's the issue I think for me is that's why I asked the hourly question to him. I think it's very important to have him here. So I I you know I I think it was great to have him here because because that was my question. Do we pay him on days? We pay him. Do we pay because here's the thing. It's a yearly salary. That's how everything I looked at was yearly salary. It sounds like we need to get rid of the yearly salary going forward and move it to either bi-weekly pay or hourly pay for every employee so that we don't have an issue like this that we don't look at the yearly salary because when you look at a yearly salary to me that's January 1, December 31st it doesn't matter if you get paid 23 times 24 26 27 52 53 it doesn't matter how often you get paid you get that yearly salary. Okay, that's what a yearly salary is. That's the economic fundamentals, you know. I mean, it's basic financial, you know, information. That's what a yearly salary means. But if we're not doing yearly salary, that's fine. I don't have a problem with it. I don't have a problem paying people. I I agree with what Kent's saying. I appreciate what Kent's saying. I I don't disagree with him because most people are paid hourly in in society. And most people I mean, even when you pay salary, a lot of times you convert it to an hourly pay and then that's how you pay the salary.

Yeah. On the 144, it it has a line for bi-weekly salary. So, they're already alerted as to what their bi-weekly salary is going to be for the entire year. And that's based on what we approved as an annual amount. What we didn't do is foresee the fact that we had the 27th pay to divide that pay out differently or discuss it and change it at that time. So I look at this year as being the year that we can make some adjustments and correct any wording that we need to on hourly, weekly, bi-weekly, annual. We can work that out so this doesn't happen again for the next council that will be in place in seven years or so. But what I feel like today is we need to talk about today. And today is

the whatifs that everybody's talking about is almost two years away,

right? because you're talking about 2027 and today is August of 2025. Okay. So, we're trying to set in motion what'll happen on that specific day and if they pay that or not. And and you know, I'm hoping that we say, "Yeah, you pay that." Now, if we get excess levies, if the if if the pennies from heaven are this and that and we don't know how much of that money um that we have to pay for that pay in 2027 we're going to have to make up. We don't know. We won't know. That's 16 months away. Okay. So, for us to speculate and say, "Oh, we're not going to then we're going to punish everybody in 2027." I'm not for that either. I mean, we might have to take some of their raise and not give them as much a raise to make up for something, but we don't know yet if it's going to hurt us or not. Okay? We know that the money's got to come from somewhere. What I'm saying is we can take it out of general fund. Uh, but what I'm saying is we have the money. Even if we lose that million dollars at a rainy day, we have it. We put it back. I've been planning for this for 12 years. Robin,

you can't say we're not planning for I I'm looking at this a little different and uh I appreciate Greg's financial we asked him to give us financial advice which he has done. But I see this as two parts. It's also about our personnel. You know, we have the last couple years we have or I don't know if it's been two or three we have asked them not to add staff. So we asked them to do more with less. And now a and people look at their paychecks. That's what they live on. And if we don't fully fund the 27th pay and you have to remember there's also going to be an increase in the insurance. So definitely some of the people will have lower checks or at least the same as 25. And I do not like doing that to our personnel because they've done what we've asked. they've done with less employees. Everybody's taken on extra things and now we're going to um put them so that some of them so many of them live check to check. It doesn't help that they get a check at the end of the year or not for the 27th pay. They need to have that in every single check divided up. And that's kind of the issue that I'm looking at. And I even thought maybe we could take half out of rainy day and half out of general funds, whatever. But I just I just think it's it's not right to do our employees that way. They're our biggest asset.

If we want to solve this or try to solve it, we tried to solve it 10 years ago. We backed the pay up and everything. Rob was on the was the auditor. We thought we had it solved. Okay. If we want to try to solve it again, I'm all for that. And if we want to try to change salary employees, what that is and all that kind of stuff going forward, that's fine. We can do that during our budget meeting. We're going to have to have somebody talk about that. We're going to have to have more discussion about that and things like that. But that's fine. If we think we can figure out a way to solve it so that in 10 years it doesn't happen to us again. But for for today,

I I'll make a motion that we pay the 27th pay. We take it out of general fund and we back it up with the with the rainy day if we have to. I'll second it. One item of discussion. Does that include No. When a second would you let me ask for it first? Go for it, Mary. Thank you. I have a question. That's fine. Is there anybody that has I have I have a legit real important question. Let I can let her ask her question first. I'm going to let everyone have an opportunity to ask any questions that they may have and then we'll vote. Jim, do you have any questions? [Laughter] Repeat the motion.

Okay. The motion was that we pay the 27th pay in December 31st or whatever of 2026. Okay. And that we take the money out of general fund. Okay. And if general fund has an issue and we can't take it out of general fund at that time, then we use rainy day to back up general fund on up to the amount that that that would be. But I'm not sure how much we have to take out because it's two years away to support that. Just the motion just the motion. That's my motion. And then that covers and she has the money and everybody and then then we go down the road.

What what's the motion again? That's too busy. The motion is that the 27th pay will be funded for the 2026 budget through the general fund with the uh rainy day fund being a backup if needed. Yeah. So, we're fully funding the fully funding, right? If including the 3% raises that you Yes. Yeah. Everybody I'm not changing the raises that we've already done in the budget. Yeah. Could I amend my motion 27th pay? So I don't know if you really want it to read like that because each department Kent

will get their 27 pays charged to them. So we wouldn't want to take the highway out of the general. We wouldn't want to take the public safety out of general. We'll have it stay in the fund that it's being paid from. Okay. Okay. and we won't need to back it up from from um the rainy day fund. Okay. And you wouldn't So you would want the motion to be that you would pay and the 27 pays will be next year, right? Right. 26.

Yeah. So we'll be paying it next year throughout the year. So you want to say and to have it come from the appropriate funds including the general fund. Okay. So, my motion amended says that we will pay for the 27th pay. It will come from um it'll come out of general fund and the appropriate funds um that's needed and and then then if we get in trouble later on, we do have a rainy day fund. My question is what what are we doing with the rest of the budget for 26? Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. We're not changing 26. It stays the way it is. It stays the way it is. Okay.

And my clarifying question on that is I could be on board with that if it includes that we are no longer stating salaries annualized and that they will only be bi-weekly because by the nature of that that means in 2027 that by that we agreed that we're going to discuss that before. Yeah. I'm not putting that into my motion yet because I think we did and then then it I'm not putting that in my motion. We're already making changes for the salary. I I'm I'm not in disagreement with you, but I'm not putting that in this in this motion. We don't disagree with that idea. It's just it doesn't need to be part of the motion.

Well, it's whether or not I vote yes or no has to do with whether or not the amount of that 27th paycheck is going to happen again in 20. I I understand. And we have seven votes. So, Okay. Robin, any questions? No. Scott?

Yeah, I do. Um my question is and I don't know if anybody here can answer might it might be a law lawyer question actually um there are certain people uh the judges sheriff prosecutors public def uh public defender the head people um that are set by state do they how does that going to work and I think some are actually paid by the state how does that work in this whole thing for that 27th pay cuz they looked it I believe what we've seen is not change. I don't think in the sour ordinances that we have been part of. Yeah. Yeah.

So they don't they don't we don't they they don't get that extra bump raise that we're this is essentially doing for when you look yearly. I don't think so. There are times that we've paid them more than what the state has said and there's been times that we've said they they've said no, we're the state wants us to be and you guys haven't. So, do did either of you guys know what I'm talking about? What was the question, Scott? Um, the question, Brent, is uh you know, I think you're paid by the state as the prosecutor. Yes. Uh, the how are they handling the 27th pay for you guys at the state level? Nothing about it. Okay. So, he's That's my question. My question to us is he's going to get a paycheck. They're not going to assort him.

Okay. So, we we don't have to worry about that, right? Tammy. Tammy. still not clear. I don't have any questions. Just a statement of our employees work. They deserve to get paid. They expect to get paid and we are the fiscal body for this county and it is our responsibility to pay them for that work. We need to keep the 3% raise that we have already committed and move forward with 27th pay. And I don't care where it comes from. They work. They deserve to get paid. Have one more question.

Deb was alluding that it's already been decided that we will change the salary ordinance to bi-weekly. Is that do I understand that right? I'm not alluding. That's that's a responsibility of the auditor's office and we've already started doing that for next year's salary ordinance. So you don't have to I was just saying hey you don't have to worry about it. So that because that answers a question of whether or not a million dollars rolls into 20. We're changing the salary ordinance based whatever is done today will be bi-weekly on our salary ordinance and I might suggest that you look at the hourly in but so subject you know you can say no that's fine. I'm gonna tell you that I've seen that a lot of times.

Yeah, we're we we've actually we've been going all over the place trying to figure out the best best route to handle it and we're but sal annualized won't be the number. Absolutely. All right, we have a motion on the floor. We have a second. I'm going to call for a roll from uh Deborah. So, uh Deb. Uh okay, roll call. Jim Shelby. Well, as long as we're changing the salary ordinance to not be not show it as salaried, I'll vote yes. Same position. If it's bi-weekly, then yes.

Oh, I guess I think I'm sorry, you said yes. Right, Key and then Robin. Louder. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I I appreciate having him here today. I want to say it because it it definitely changed my mind. I wish you'd have been here la uh last week because we got to do it based on ours. So, yes. Yes. No, I know. I'm I'm about understanding it. It's some This is why so many times we

something comes up and we have to have a discussion. We got to think about it. We got to call each other, you know, individually just talk about it and and then bring in an expert and say, "Hey, we we're having problems." Something we should have discussed as a we do need to tweak the system between now and the next time it happens. Yep. But not today. And not to we Oh. Oh. But before we adjourn, um I I know Scott's not here. Um, at our next meeting, we need to get on the uh I know you can't do it today, but we need to do something for Judge Davis. Um, the council needs to do something for Judge Davis. We have to He has a uh what is uh I forget the word. Jerry payer. No, no, it it it's it pertains to the juvenile magistrate.

Oh, we need to we need to sign off. There's a declaration uh that we need to sign off on and vote on that the commissioners have already done. Well, okay. So, I'll get on the next agenda. I'll get on the agenda for next. All right. Meeting adjourned. Thank you. Thank you everybody.