Board of Zoning Appeals - Regular Meeting

All right, we'll go ahead and call the meeting to order this evening. The Thursday, October 30th meeting of the Hancock County Board of Zoning Appeals. Um, I would like to advise you that all testimony is being recorded and is taken under oath. I would request that anyone wishing to speak only do so when they're called upon face our attorney to my left and she will swear you in. All persons speaking need to give their full name, spelling your last name for our accurate meeting minutes. Please turn off all your cell phones, electronic devices, and other noise making apparatus that you might have with you this evening. The order of those speaking tonight will be um Kayla will be giving a staff report that's going to be equipped with u conditions, recommendations, and all those things to the board. Uh and then we will bring the petitioner up for seven minutes of uh presentation that is then followed by a collective seven minutes of remmonstrators. That's all remmonstrators inside of the seven minutes. We offer any government officials that might be here three minutes to speak. Um, and then the uh petitioner then gets to come back for a three-minute rebuttal. Our attorney will offer each party two-minute warnings and one minute warnings as the time is expiring. We ask you that um that all the persons here conduct themselves in a civil manner and we do reserve the right to ask you to leave if you cannot do that. Uh the first order of business uh this evening would be the adoption of last month's meeting minutes that were submitted electronically. to approve.

Second. All right. It's been moved and seconded to approve last month's meeting minutes submitted electronically. All those in favor signify by saying I.

Oppose. Same sign. I would also like to let everybody know that we have one member absent this evening. So, Dennis, we have all but Mr. Faucet. That means that in any decision is going to require three like votes. So, um whether that's an approval, denial, or whatever. So, if you don't like your odds, you have the opportunity to um withdraw your petition or ask for continuance. Um you can think about that now or you can uh if you don't like how things are going and you want to ask for withdrawal when you come up, you're welcome to do that at that time. Okay. Uh what else did I miss? I think we're good. Oh, this meeting is being recorded and streamed for public viewing. By participating in that, you acknowledge that your image, voice, and comments may be captured and made publicly available. This meeting has been properly noticed in accordance with Indiana Code 514-1.5. Um, our hearing items this evening, we have five items and item number two has been continued. So, I think I'd like a motion to accept that continuence for the

moved. Second. All right. Moved and seconded to accept the continuence of item number two. All those in favor signify by saying I.

Oppos. same sign. Right. Thank you. So, that takes us right into hearing item number one, which is Mr. Terry Stevens. Um, special exception to variances in Blue River Township. All right. So, our first agenda item tonight is a home occupation special exception with two variances from our home occupation standards. The petitioner The petitioners are Terry and Heidi Stevens. The subject property is their home located at 6241 East 200 South in Blue River Township and it's an agricultural zoning district. Their property is shown here located on uh the right um of a shared driveway minor subdivision um outlined in blue. The home occupation use is for a furniture repair business and the variances are uh one to have a sign and two to operate out of an accessory building. Here is the site plan that was provided showing the new barn located behind the house as an extension of the driveway. They've also shown where their septic is located.

Their hope is to operate the business, make it available for the public to visit um on a some up to I think 24 times a year is the condition that staff recommends. Um we have gotten a lot of support for this particular home occupation uh from neighbors as well as others in the community. So this the variances uh for business for the business area um the way our ordinance reads the home occupation must be located in the house and it can't exceed a total area of 500 square feet. It's a little, to be honest, if we look at the history of home occupation standards, that really worked well if you were cutting hair in the breezeway of your 1960s ranch. That's kind [snorts] of what that was designed for. Um, a lot more often now we we're seeing this kind of a of a home occupation request for variance and we are looking at updating our standards to be more accommodating. Variance number two, signs. Um, typically we do not allow signage in connection with home occupations. I've included a lot of the special exception uh decision criteria uh that you can look at here. you really can look at what would make this particular home occupation use and the connected variances more fitting for this neighborhood and the particular situation that it's in and that the uh petitioners are are trying to enact here. I'll let them speak more about their their business. Our staff recommendation is approval with a number of conditions. Uh, first that the petitioner shall seek and obtain an annual occupancy permit for

the home occupation. I'm sorry, this is probably just for the Yeah, this is just for the the special exception. We'll go on to the variances. For the um special exception, it is to uh approve with conditions that the petitioner shall seek and obtain annual occupancy permits for the home occupation uh prior to commencement of the business at this location. The permit shall be sought and obtained within 12 months of the above date or the approval will automatically expire. Um, two, the special exception shall become null and void if the business ceases operations for 12 consecutive months or longer. Um, three, the home occupation shall be open to the public no more than 12 times per calendar year. But I believe this was Hold on you guys. I'm looking at a PDF by the way. Um I think let me just make sure version you've got this might not have been saved. Hold on. Yep. I'm so sorry you guys. I'm looking at an old copy. There was some back and forth with petitioner and we did edit the staff report to read 24 days per calendar year. In our printed copies, it says 24 days. Perfect. Yes, there we go. This is the correct version. Okay. The special exception shall run with the petitioner and shall not be transferable to any owner or entity, any other owner or entity. A building permit and or improvement location permit relating to the special exception must be obtained within 12 months of the above approval

date. An occupancy permit must be obtained within 12 months of the approval of the permit or the special exception will automatically expire. And six, the BZA reserves the right to modify or revoke the special exception at a public hearing if it determines that the home occupation constitutes a public nuisance. Once again, we've gone through um in the following sections. Now, we're in the variance considerations. Um so the decision criteria to have uh is the same once again to very similar to have that um home occupation uh occur in the accessory structure. A variance is a little bit more serious of a uh of a uh allowance to give a property of course. However, there are ways that we can modify our com ouruh approval to make sure that it runs very much with this special exception and does not apply to other things. The staff recommendation uh for the special except for the variance to run outside of the home and in an accessory building is to approve with condition that the home occupation shall not expand without the approval of the BZA. The variance granted herein shall run with the property but shall only remain so long as the special exception. The BCA reserves the right to modify or revoke the special exception at a public hearing. Uh if it determines that the home occupation constitutes a public nuisance once again and a building permit or improvement location permit relating to this special exception shall be obtained within 12 months. um or the special exception shall automatically expire. Um

there's also a site plan that is in your um in your documents that we didn't look at, but it shows the the the building that the Stevens family is looking at building. Um most of it it is larger than it's, you know, a little larger of a barn obviously, um but most of it will actually be used for their personal storage. So it is a personal accessory building in addition to the home occupation. Okay. All right. And finally the variance for signage. Once again uh to be put it simply home occupations in our code don't allow for signage. Um we have looked at uh some conditions if the board chooses to approve this um such as the home occupation shall not exceed a maximum of 32 square ft in area. Uh the variance shall run with the property but shall only remain so long as the special exception remains active and the petitioner shall once again seek and obtain an improvement location permit um prior to the commencement of business at this location. The permit will be sought and obtained within 12 months or it will expire. So I'm going to go ahead and let the petitioner take the seat up here. Other items you could consider with the sign permit, for example, would be um say, well, we we are we only okay with it being a wall sign or we're only okay with it being this big if it's a monument sign out by the road. Um these are the kinds of things that you can look at. Uh also putting some conditions on if you feel like it.

Hey, do you have any questions for me before I turn it over? I have a question for you. So, what's the reasoning behind not letting a home occupation?

Uh, the idea is that home occupations are largely supposed to remain very residential in feel, but different communities allow diff for different sorts of um signage. Uh, here we say no signage at all. That's what our code reads. But other communities might say something like, "Well, you can put a 12 by, you know, like a one foot by one foot placard up by your front door or you can have a yard card out or something like a little, you know, yard sign out or something like that." Um, different communities have different standards. That's simply how our code reads. I'm not totally sure, but I think keeping that residential nature was really the the primary concern when no signage was made the rule. And there's really no intention to change that in the UDO, I don't think, is there? We didn't really discuss it at all.

I couldn't say for sure. Yeah, I didn't see it in in there. So, are there other home occupations in the immediate area with or without signage? We'll let you have that conversation with the Stevens family. Great. Thank you. All good. All right. Petitioner available to come up. We ask that you raise your right hand and swear your life away to You swear affirm under the penalty of perjury that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I do. Okay. Please state your name and spell your last name for the record. Terry Stevens. S E P H Ns. And you have seven minutes.

All right. Thank you. Um thank you for your time this evening. Um just to give you a background how we got to this point, my wife and I decided that we wanted to build a pole barn. the um our attached garage was no longer doing it. We we've outgrown it. So, we thought now was the perfect time to do it and we were in the process of designing our barn. Um we started talking about incorporating a designated space within our barn for our hobby, which is to um flip furniture, home decor. We like to um hand hand make handmade uh wooden seasonal decorations, that kind of stuff. So, we were trying to find a place to put that within our barn. We most of our business has been done on marketplace, but we truly believe that a picture doesn't do justice for some of these items. You know, you can't tell the true color sometimes, how well a piece of furniture, for example, is put together, um how the weight of it, all that kind of stuff. A picture doesn't do that justice. So, we just wanted to have a place where people could come out and kind of kick the tires, as they say, um in in our barn. So, [clears throat] um we've been in a vendor mall mall before. They were open seven days a week. The problem with that is, you know, we were paying rent. So, you have this added pressure of feeling like you have to have that booth full 7 days a week. And so, that turned into a full-time job. It lost its hobby feel, which which what we wanted it to be. So, we we decided we wanted to do this so we could go as slow as we wanted to go. So, if we feel like we don't want to be open, we're not going to be open. So, we just wanted to keep this as a hobby is is the reason why we got away from the vendor mall. Um, we also talked about we want this to do this the right way. We wanted to make sure that that our neighbors were aware of our intentions because that's only fair to them. Um, you know, I've talked to um uh when I when we decided we want to do the wrong do it the right way and talk to the neighbors, I tal we talked to the planning department and you know, they kind of gave us the ladies gave us here's the path that you need to take. So, we got approved to the state first

and then then we filed the checklist for the county. And so, our notices went out to all of our neighbors and when I went and talked to the neighbors, I wanted to make sure they knew what the details were of the business, what we were planning on doing. Um um we in our paperwork there is a form that we've got majority of our uh neighbors to sign. I got everyone on my road to sign that. They're very supportive. Um they were they're actually kind of excited about what what we're to offer when I when I told them what what the details were. Um the details that we're looking for in this business hopefully is we will never be open Monday through Thursday. As I said before, you know, we we have full-time jobs. We don't want this to be a full-time job. So we'll never be open Monday through Thursday. Um and we're asking to be open at most 24 days out of the year. I'm a math guy, so that's roughly 6% out of the calendar year is all we're asking to be open. Um, when I explain this to our neighbors, I'm like, you think of it as the it's it's not going to be any more than if someone were to have a garage sale. Um, that that basically that many times out of the year. And and to put into perspective, as you guys know, Hancock County allows a person to have 30 days worth of garage sale per year. So, that's kind of how we got to this point.

Couple questions. Yes. Is there any waste that's generated uh if you're refurbishing or is it is it like you're restaining there's in mass you're build building give me a little nothing that you're handling for waste? No. So typically what I'll do is like you said I I'll take one piece of furniture I'll I'll pull it outside. I'll sand it if needed sand. What we like to do with our furniture is we want it to give a new but old look. So we'll put a a coat of paint over it. Then we distress it. So we we make it look old. So we don't put polyurethane. We don't we just use water-based paint. It's all we use on it. So there's really there's really no waste involved with this. Would you say that you would be constructing this in substantial conformance w with the documents presented substantially?

It's pretty it's pretty close. U I will say I couldn't do one thing I couldn't do is we're going to have more of a there's going to be a little bit of a kick out on the front in the middle which I couldn't get the program to do that but other than that little bitty kick out like a 4ft kickout that's is pretty much what it's going to look like. And what what was the state level approvals you needed? What were the state approvals?

It's it was all the paperwork we had to do for since we're actually wanting people to come in basically saying it's going to be a safe environment. The distance from our farthest point in the shop to the front door, all that that kind of stuff. What kind of electricity we had to give them like our electricity layout, the you know the stuff the countyy's going to basket two for like our pole designs, how far the footers, all that kind of stuff. And would you say that the purpose of the sign is to attract new clients that are from the public driving by or for people who are going there just to say here it is?

It's it honestly the sign means we could care less about the sign to be honest with you. It was one of those things we wanted to be on the docket in case we decided we want to have a sign cuz we knew we couldn't go back and do it later. So the sign means nothing. It really does. It's just one of those things where hey somebody comes up. Yeah, it's a pretty cool soul sign. We like it. No, we're not trying to attract any t We're going to be so far off the road, you're not going to be safe from the road anyway. And the sign was going to be if we did have a sign, it was just going to be like right on the front porch on the new structure. Yes, the new structure. Ah, got it. Thank you. Oh, it wasn't going to be out by the road then. Okay. Yeah. I I was assuming that you needed the sign because the parcel's pretty large and you're kind of out in the country and you want people to be able if they're

deliberately coming to your place to know where it is. So yeah, we're just hoping at that point they they know how to find our address. So Google map. Yeah. Yeah. I just have two more questions and I'll turn it back over. Are there any other home occupations in the area? Um the the I can think of one on I'm we're on 200 South 100 South. Um now it's agricultural, but it's um Cherry Farms. So they do have a sign out there and I think they have customers that come to their business as well. And I think that's the only one I can think of. Sometimes when we My last question. Sometimes when we hear testimony that you would be willing to limit the visit of those 24 days um to Friday, Saturday, Sunday, we put it into our conditions. Would that be acceptable to you?

Absolutely. Yeah, we we have zero interest to being open during the week. We the only reason why we picked Friday is because, you know, sometimes you get around a holiday and you know, it's like a long weekend or something like that. So, we just want to have the option of doing a combination of a Friday, Saturday, and Sunday or just it's usually just going to be Saturday, Sunday. Those are my questions. I was I was curious. So, the the the new barn is about 2400 square ft total. Um how much of that is like workshop and how much of that is where the public would be or would they mill throughout your entire shop looking at your stuff then?

No. So about onethird I would. So if you picture that middle strip is going to be the shop itself or the store itself. Um, I most of my my parents live across the street. That's where I do my work. So, across the street. So, really not going to be a whole lot of shop stuff happening in that bar. And I want to use it for parking my vehicles, my lawn mower, um, tools, all that kind of stuff.

Okay. Um, give me just a second. So, the the consent letter that you had, it's nice packet by the way, but the um the consent letter doesn't mention the the signage, but were they aware of the signage when they I didn't mention the sign to them. I did not. Okay. Nope. Never came up. Okay. And then I was also a little curious. So the site plan

looks of the barn looks slightly different to me than the rendering is. So is this like the long side or something or Yeah. So if you if you were to look at so that it would be perpendicular with 200 south the way the barn's running. Okay. I'm sorry parallel not perpendicular be running parallel with 200 south. So this Oh, I see the 62 foot dimension that Oh, I got it now. I see that. Yeah. Yeah. So, it'll look the shape on there may not be the best proportion.

Yeah. So, the sign you're thinking the sign would be like somewhere in here. Yeah. Somewhere right there on that. I'm going to call that the front porch area. So now the one thing I couldn't do either is that little gable on the front is going to be cedar. So that's going to be open. So it'll be open cedar. So I even thought about putting a sign like on a cedar beam or something like that. Nothing, you know, too extravagant cuz I mean to be honest with you, it's, you know, it's going to be $100,000 barn and I'm not going to put some big goaudy sign on it. So it's just going to be something to more something that we're proud of. I guess pride. I guess you're probably catching our drift that signage is a sticking point. [laughter] Yeah. And honestly, the sign that will not that is not a make or break for us.

I kind of like it because if somebody's found their way to this long driveway you have, then they know they've made it, right? So when they get into the driveway, it helps to control some of that traffic situation. So then when people do get there, then they're going to drive around the back to the parking in the So there will be parking in the front. So they're more than welcome to park in the front, but if it's one of those if we need any overflow. So, the reason why I have that in the back is because I will have a bay door on the back for me for my lawn mower and stuff to get in and out. So, I'm going to have it graveled anyway. So, I'm going to have uh that back there. So, I just put it as there's extra parking if if needed.

Okay. And it's it's just a a shell barn with heat. Yeah. No plumbing or anything like that. Nope. Okay. And your direct neighbor, the one that you have a shared drive with, is on the letter of endorsement. Yeah, he's he is the one that has the separate letter. So we have So he wrote the that's the actual letter and then all the other neighbors are on that form that we created just to make it simple for everyone. Thank you.

More questions, you guys. Good. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Do we have anybody that would like to speak in opposition of these variants? Special exception. Sure. Come on up. Both of you want to speak? Go first. Okay. So, we have seven minutes. It'll be collective. So, you Okay. Uh Joe Jones. J O N E. Oh, sorry. Do you swear or affirm under the penalty of perjury that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Yes. Okay. Go ahead.

Joe Jones. J O N E S. I live directly behind it. Um where he's at. I'm at 6242 and um we've been there 15 years. And [clears throat] me personally, if we let one person start businesses out there in the country, that's where I moved. I moved from the city out there to get away from the businesses. I've owned my own business for 40 years and I don't want to be around businesses. So, um, of course I'm retired now. Um, we just Tiner Farms of course has been there forever, but that's a farm. We Everybody's out there with the farm, cows and all that. I think this is a little bit more different than a farm a farmer than doing business out of his thing. Nothing against him. Um, but that's why I moved out here. Um, then the public's going to be out there. I've got grandkids that lives with us. Um, that's gonna, you know, that I don't care. I'm not that afraid of them right now going every anywhere. But when they go my back at the property, we have trails back there. I'm going to wonder if somebody going to come back. I know anybody can, but is there going to be more public, you know, out there? So, um, and the sign thing, you know, um, that's just another thing, more [clears throat] people bringing more business out there. So, what's next after this? You know, are we going to do, you know, whatever, you know, meat, more uh, whatever. I don't know what else they would bring. So if we agree to this, you know, people that likes the country,

we're adding businesses to it. That's I don't think so. You know, I don't like it. Mhm. Um I don't mind nobody bettering yourself, but it needs to be at a uh commercial place already. Not I always try and get away from rent. I, like I said, I've done it for all my life, you know, and own my own business. That's why I built my own place in Indianapolis to get away from rent. But now, you know, I know what he's trying to do. And I I agree, but I disagree why I moved to the country.

Now I'm going to be dealing with the public or a business right behind me. Yeah. Okay. Um, all good points. I one thing that we do with with these cases specifically and it's a condition on each of the variances and I believe the special exception a proposed proposed condition. We haven't agreed to those just yet but uh it's that this board can revoke the variances and can revoke the special exceptions if there becomes a nuisance. So if you start to experience a lot of trouble or it just you feel like your way of life has changed significantly, you can appeal to the office. You can you can make

I did that. I just leave. [laughter] I don't like problems. I mean I don't like to causing I don't like causing problems. Yeah. But uh that's why you know I've met the guy. He came to my house and I was upfront with him and you know I'm not the type of person that will fight you and I had attorneys and all that with my trucking company and all that. I I don't do that. I would sell my property and head farther east. Yeah. I mean I don't want to do that. But you know what's the next business? I mean

and who's going to monitor uh monitor him from how much people or how much time he's going to be open? I mean he's going to do all that. I wouldn't call in on him because I don't like starting problems with neighbors. I don't That's why [clears throat] I lived moved out there. Yeah. Instead of moving living in town and everybody else complaining because you are doing something wrong or parking your RV in front of your house and when that you're not allowed to the load up go, you know. Yeah. And I had that problem. So that's why I moved out in the country. Okay. Okay. But that's where I'm coming from.

Okay. I do have one question. Um uh sometimes we have I mean instead of a binary yes or no, we have the ability to put conditions on that could be acceptable to neighbors. Um is there anything in what you've heard in the conditions that that we could tweak to make this, you know, outside of the binary, yes or no? Perhaps it's sometime in the no more than x calendar days per year. Um is there anything in there that could make this um or or you know that which if you would have seen like okay, I can deal with that. Just a question you don't have to answer. No, I don't mind. Um, really and truly, I had to talk to my wife. She had surgery a week ago with seven hours surgery. No, she couldn't make it. Okay.

Um, doctor wouldn't even um I'd have to talk to her. Sure. To make sure we're on the same page. Got it. You know, we've been together, you know, 45 years. But, I mean, if somebody called and said, "Hey, would this we, you know, I, you know, I don't mind talking to somebody." Mhm. But she couldn't be here. She wanted to be, but the doctors today told her stay home. Okay. All right. Sorry about that. No, no, thank you. Thank you. Anything else? All right. Thank you very much for coming up. We had one other.

Do you swear or affirm under the penalty of perjury that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Yes. State your name. Spell your last name.

Justin Rogers. R O G E RS. I live three houses east of Joe um on 250 64 58 and uh ours TE's on both ends of the road. So we have a lot of freedom with our kids out there and there are young kids at every single house almost but I think maybe two and they all like to walk down and see the deer across the street. lady has fenced in deer on like 50 acres. They're real real nice. You can go down there and fish under the under the bridge and everything. So, we let our young kids kind of just be kids out in the country the way you're supposed to. And then you notice that whenever there's a stop or a wreck or something at 300, right where the four-way is, they reroute everyone onto our road and then it's just chaos. People are going like 60 miles an hour through where we all you don't go there unless you live there. You got invited out there on our road and it just gets out of control. People are throwing trash and everything in your yard and you you know when that happened and then

it just I don't know. We moved there and found that house just because of where it's at. And I would hate to see on a weekend if they're open on the weekends that there's just wild traffic going around when we're out there because we all bought that area to let our kids grow up not in that kind of area. And then we would automatically have to go and start cutting back all the tree lines so you can see and it just get it would get out of control. I don't mind even having a business at his house and everything, but I think just the full-on traffic on weekends is just kind of taken away from all of our weekends on the next road over if thing if everyone just is driving around because once you're out there in the country, if you're from the city, you're going to like, well, let's hit this country block and see what it's all like. Well, we all have really nice houses and we don't want anyone out there. [laughter] That's all I really have. It's just All right.

I wish him the best of luck with it, though. I own my own small company and yeah, got to do what you got to do. But want it out there? Any any questions? No. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Do we have any government officials want to speak? We never do. Um, no, we have had that before. So, uh, we have, uh, Mr. Stevens, you would have some uh rebuttal time if you'd like. Two minutes. I'm sorry, 3 minutes of rebuttal time.

Um M Mr. Rogers, I think, was the second person. He wasn't on our list of stuff to mail out, so I didn't get a chance to talk to him coming out.

Um the one thing I want to make clear is he's on 250. We're on 200. So majority I'm assuming majority of the people come to see us will be coming from the 40 coming down south of 600 and not even making it to 250. Um I guess would be my rebuttal to that. So I mean I appreciate everything he has to say but that would be well you know my rebuttal back to that. So um now uh Mr. Mr. Jones. I did go over and talk to him and the concern that he told me when we were talking about it is, you know, his grandkids um driving back in the paths through the woods. Um you know, and then I explained to him, I'm like, well, he was worried about strangers coming to our houses. Like if I have a garage sale, strangers come to my house. The Amazon man, the FedEx man, they're all strangers coming to our houses. Um and the people that we expect to come to this is is it's it's pretty narrow. We're we're expecting probably 30 to 50 year old women is who we're expecting most of our customers to be. Um I will I do have a picture now Mr. Jones we are we are backtoback neighbor so his drive comes off on 250. So this picture is an aerial of

if that wasn't in the packet we can't look at it sorry about that. So anyway there there is about 900 ft of woods between thick woods between the back of our properties. I own about 10 to 12 feet, I can't remember, into those woods. So, I do have a a tree buffer there naturally already. I've lived here for 25 years. And I'm not saying that his grandkids don't go back there cuz that's definitely not what I'm saying. But I've never seen them looking through my woods because of how thick how thick the woods the woods are.

What's What's the anticipated number of people you're expecting? You know, I I tell people it would be the same as we really don't know, but I would expect, you know, if you advertise as a garage sale, you really don't know how many people are coming out. Um, so that I we're hoping to average five people an hour, I guess, if you were to give me a number. If I were to give you a number. So, this is going to operate much like a garage sale. You're going to advertise kind of like that. We're open that it's a sort of like you're advertising a garage sale, right? Basically, yes. Where will you advertise? What's that? Where will you advertise? Probably just social media.

Okay. No like signs and yard like in the the churn sign. You're not going to put little temporary signs up for No. Turn here for No. Nope. So again, it's basically we'll be here's our address if you want to come out and then with today's technology, they should be able to find us. You said 500 per what? Per year. 500 people per year. No, I said hopefully about five per hour. Five per hour is what we're hoping. We'd be happy with that. I think and hours of [snorts] we're I would just suggest I was probably would be open 10 to 5 10 to 10 to 4 somewhere around that range maybe a little less on a Sunday probably more of a 12 to 4 12 to 5.

When you were in the peddlers barn did you advertise on social media? Were you seeing those kind of numbers coming through your mic up a little? Yeah, I'm sorry if I can hear you. I said on the um the pedallers barn when did you advertise on social media there and were you seeing those kind of numbers coming through there?

Well, the thing of is because we were in that mall. They did most the advertising. So, we would they would they would send stuff out and we would just share it like, hey, if you if you like this piece of furniture, go to the to Logan Village Mall to take a look at it. That kind of thing. So, it was it was just to help advertise for all of the booths. So, but we were we were never there, you know. you know, they're they're in downtown Noblesville, so um so we're assuming the the traffic was pretty steady, but of course there were 50 shops in there.

So you always intended to be open to the public with retail sales is always the intent for the home occupation. Yes.

Okay. And and just another question, the 24 days per calendar year, you'll you'll be open like that's half half the year or you're doing like once per month. We would so we'll we'll probably prep for like like fall's a big we'll probably be open a couple times prefall couple weekends prefall couple times maybe couple like a couple weekends like one weekend before fall one week in the middle of fall to catch the the Halloween people who are want to buy Halloween items that kind of thing and then around Christmas and then spring summertime stuff like that so yeah it'll be a weekend just here and there

so Thursday Friday, Saturday for eight weekends in a year. Not Thursday. No Thursday. No, Thursday. So, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, eight weekends in

um I don't know if it's going to be eight weekends. So, it so for example, it might be um like one weekend we might be open three days, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. And then, you know, a few weeks later, a month later, we may be open just a Saturday and Sunday, something along those lines. So, we haven't really decided for sure which particular weekends we're planning on being open, but they will be centered around. Um, like I said, fall's a big one. So, we'll probably be open in September and then um October and then probably in November and and of course in and December for sure. And then we'll probably close January and February if I were to guess because there's no really holidays around January, February to plan for. And then we'll start playing have be open around Easter and then getting close to Fourth of July kind of a stuff. [clears throat]

Uh so I was I forgot to ask you before I was a little curious about what you what did you have to do with the state? I I wasn't following that. Was that Homeland Security? Was that for the building itself?

Yeah. I mean we the paperwork was crazy that we had to fill out for the state. It was it was basically saying, "Oh, you're having people come in. the building's got to be safe for them to come in. Like we had to talk about we had to show them where electrical layout would be. We had to show them the farthest point from uh to the to the front door from in there evacuation wise, safety wise. We had to show them the structure itself, the trusses, how the the you know, we had to send the report on the trusses. We had to send a drawing of the post, how they would be in the ground, how they'd be secured, all that kind of stuff. What our what our flooring would be, what our walls would be, what we' use to hold our walls together. You name it, we had to send it to the state. Who sent you to the state? Your builder?

No. Um the inspector in the in the building at Oh, so Scott wanted you to go through the whole commercial building situation then. Okay. Yep. He treated He's treating it like a commercial building. Do you have a business license? Are you like an like an LLC or something? We're going to be we're going to be just to be on the safe side. Yeah. To protect ourselves. So, is he going to require you to have a bathroom in there then since he's I don't think so. Yeah, cuz I mean I mean there's there's a lot of businesses don't we're not serving food or anything like that. But you did get the approval from the state. It's probably called Yes, we sent it to the county. It's probably called a design release. Is that

Yeah, it was it was like four different things that we had to get approved on. But when when I say four different things, it was actually about a thousand different things, but it was broken up into four four parts. And it's for a the equivalent of a commercial building. Yeah. Even though we told him it was just we're just wanting a piece of it, but the uh Yeah. Everything he described right there was a commercial building application. How many cars do you think even go down 200 South? That's I would think if you're talking five times an hour, that's like 35 cars. The hours I don't even know if 35 cars go down the road normally on a given day. 200 south.

No, probably not. The reason why because us is we have that S-curve, right? A real sharp S-curve. Yeah. So nobody So if you like, for example, if if people are trying to get to um past us, they will turn on 100 South first and then go around so they could so they avoid that S-curve, right? Because the S-curve, even though it's small, makes people feel like they're going backwards. So yeah. So, I don't know if we were supposed to do it because again, this is this building is for personal use, but we just did what we were supposed to and it was it was not fun. Expensive, too, wasn't it? It wasn't. Well, it not not compared to what this has been. So, [laughter] so it cost us a few hundred.

One of the cheapest counties in the state. Yeah. Well, you know, I'm [laughter] just comparing it to what the state said. So, it's what the state charges. Um, so we had one, yours is a little different. We had one of these a few months ago that was on a busy road. Uhhuh. And we made a condition that they contact the sheriff's department on the days of their sales. Is that something that you could do if we put a condition like that? It's I don't I doubt they do it, but you know, um it's an email, I think, or just call the non-emergency line or something and say there's going to be a sale at your address and not a problem. They just put it on the uh

Oh, the police have like a little alert in their cars. I think they just know that there's more activity out there that day. Yeah, that wouldn't be a problem whatsoever. Okay. If uh if if we removed the open to the public component, what would be the what would what's your result? Um we wouldn't do it. Uh and I just have a question for for Rhonda. When we did this um a couple of months ago, we had some pretty severe limitations on on use. What was do we look that up? That one was on a um [cough] was a very u

bike congested area. The bike was the bike. Yeah. And there was no good place for people to really get off the road and everything. So I think we we had a bunch of weird things or not weird things but a lot of things about keeping the the products behind the house was [snorts] one and yeah so that the cars would be in the driveway. I think they were having trouble with people side of the road. Yeah. It causing a real hazard. More of the issue is though, how many days would you say it could be open because the traffic? Can we look that up? What the conditions were? Um, theirs was I don't have that. Dennis would probably have it. Um, a previous certification. Oh gosh.

He's nodding his head. Yes, he's he's going for it. I think that road does not get a whole lot of traffic at all. Oh, it's a it's right. It's it probably doesn't have 20 cars down it all day. And coming off of 600, we're actually the second house on the right. The other the first house would be my brother who is the shared driveway. So, um once they get off 600, they don't have to go very far. Yeah. And we've got plenty of, you know, we're well off the road, so we're not going to be clo anywhere close to people having to be at the edge of the road. No, I mean that was just the that was the situation with the last one they're talking about.

I think it was the March 27th meeting. See if I have might have been the given case. That sounds right. First agenda item of the day. I was just asking what type what what types of time frames we put in place. You're going to probably have to look at the certification rather than the staff report, if that makes sense.

Sorry to hang you up here a little bit. We'll find out information. Yeah. Yeah. No worries. No worries. And uh one other thing that do I still have time to rebuttal one thing that Mr. Jones Yeah. You're still on time. Yeah. Um is you know he he mentioned something about well you know if we give him if we give you this much then how many more days he's going to be able. If I want to do that I wouldn't done it the right way. You know what I mean? I wouldn't be standing here tonight. I would just say hey let's be open and you know we wanted to do this the right way. It's like we want to this is the the amount of days that we would like to be open and we we don't want to do more than that. Yeah, we're not going to take the chance of messing up. This has been a lot of work to get this point. So,

yeah, most variances, specifically home occupations, it's kind of a community policing type situation. You know, that's why we put that the ability to revoke it. So, if somebody's really put off by the whole situation, they can file a complaint and then Dennis will investigate it and decide if it needs to be revoked or not or if we need to tweak the conditions or whatever. So, Sure. Yeah. So it usually is works out. Okay. But um

um so you imposed uh condition with the language to limit sales to 10 times per year on Saturdays only between May 1st to September 30th. 10 a year. We limited um advertising as well to online Facebook only discussed it. I'm not sure if that was in a condition. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah. [snorts]

Um so was [snorts] no street parking allowed. Sign shall be placed by road on day of sale and petitioner must require vehicles to be immed customer doesn't if customer does not comply.

Good. Yeah. I I mean 24 to 10 days that's a big difference just to what would you look I mean 10 days is that something not worth it? No. I mean um you know if I were if I were to think the other way it's like well you know let's not even do a business. I mean I'll just do my barn and then it's like if I have just garage sales you know I get 30 days. You know what I mean? So that I mean that would be my don't you know what I mean? advertise as a garage sale and not have a designated area. I'm not sure you can have 30 days of garage sales. I'm going to look that up. Well, I I I wouldn't I think that's right. It's I think it's a total

Oh, yeah. No, no, no, no, no. That's I that No, what I'm saying I I I'm just saying, you know, it's like 10 days. It's going to be a lot of work for 10 days. Does that make sense? Yeah. No, we wouldn't have maximum number of weekends for a collective total of some days. We looked that up on that same case, how many days they could have garage sales and Yeah. Um I think because I I I looked it up on the website for the county and it said you could be open I think I'm pretty sure it said a total of 30 days. I'm I'm like 99% sure it said a total of 30 days.

Did you say what your hours were going to be? Um, I would say if I were to guess, we haven't got that far yet, but I would it's 10 to 10 to 5 at the latest. Um, and on Sunday it would probably be less than that. 12 to 4, some 12 to 5 at, you know, somewhere around there if I were to guess. Your typical um, you know, like a lot of places that sell the stuff that we're want to sell, that's that's the norm, the hours. I I think It's in a weird spot, Rhonda. I can't It's not in the

um There's some language in the ordinance that mightful. So, um states garage yard sales committed to occur four times per calendar year for a maximum of 30 days per calendar year. Um, four sales a year, 30 total days. Yeah, I can find Fortville and McCordsville. They're they allow three temporary uses. I think 156 063.

Yeah, cuz I saw a bunch for like particular corporate, but us being out in the country unincorporated, that's where I saw the 30 days. and and what what we're hearing from unincorporated county. That's the that's the ordinance for unincorporated county. Four times a year, 30 days in aggregate. Yeah, that's right. It's uh

So, I mean, yeah. So, if you do that, you know, that's seven or eight eight days in a row that you could and we, you know, we don't want to do that many days in a row. We like said, we just want to break it up to we want it to fit more seasonal is I guess is what I'm trying to say because nobody wants to buy any seasonal stuff in January and February cuz they don't decorate for nothing until you start getting towards spring. Did you find it, Rhonda? It's 1563. 063. Yeah. And it's down at like I think it's B. Garage garage sales are permitted to occur four times per calendar year for a maximum of 30 days. That's exactly I think what he was reading.

Garage yard sales shall be distinguished from flea markets in that garage sales garage sales are clearly incidental to residential uses while flea markets are commercial businesses and primary uses. In no instance shall this provision be interpreted as permitting the operation of a flea market.

Consider yourself a flea market. Where where were you before? It was you're moving it from a different establishment. Uh well we haven't been up there for a while. So it was in um is in Noblesville Logan Village Mall. It's a vendor mall up there. We had a a booth. Do we have anybody monitoring these garage sales to say that four times a year? Neighbors. Neighbors do for sure. Neighbors. Better than garage sale material. So

So he could or anybody could build furniture, do whatever you want. Call it a garage sale, sell it, and had 30 days total to do it four times a year. Okay. Who's monitoring it other than your neighbor? Is there anybody going to check that? Based on I'm not going to check it. You going to check it? All right. My car doesn't go that far. I don't that far out east [laughter] make it. Can't make it. You do have a LLC right now. Uh we we haven't got that far, but yes, we absolutely going to we plan on

So in the last case, we required them to we couldn't grant a home business unless they had a business. Yeah. So it was you're asking for a home occupation, a business in a home, but you don't you're coming here without a business right now, right? Well, hang on. Well, we can make that a condition, right? That it before it gets the permit, he's got to have the

LLC. We made them We made them come back with a business before they applied in the last case. They they went and got a business, set up their business. Yeah. My wife works works for a a law firm, so that's that's an easy part for us. So, but we've already talked about that, you know, it's like we're just doing it step by step to cuz there's like sales tax remission. Yeah. And yeah, we've we um so, for example, we were at um Logan Village Mall. We had um our sales tax and all that. We did all that to to say that we, you know, paid in our sales tax and all that. So, we've done all that before. Like the mall would collect it for you.

Correct. Yes. Yes. And then we'd have file paperwork that we actually collected no sales tax from the customers because it was done through there. So yeah, all of that is we'll we'll be doing um for this for this so we can pay taxes on it. Yeah, that's again that's why we when I say we want to do it the right way, that's what I'm talking about is you know we want this to be legitimate. You know, we'll pay our taxes the way that we're supposed to. Um but you know, we're just doing this step by step. It was kind of like, well, if we can't get approved for it, do we want to spend the money to do being

It's a pretty significant difference between 10 days that we've approved in the past and on a really busy road already than 24. So, is there another time frame that would occur to you that might be a little easier to consider? Well, you are you saying that our roads were busy? Is that what you were saying? We did 10 days and it was already a busy road, meaning the increased traffic wouldn't be that noticed. Um, this would be heavily noticed over, you know, 10 to five, five cars an hour,

three days. That's I'm just it's it's notice. So that happening 24 days per per year when we limited another shop, you know, someone else with that much traffic um is a pretty big spread. 10 to 24. Yeah. And 24 is the lowest that you would be able to justify.

Well, no, I I I'm not sure. Um you know, like I said, it's it takes a lot of work for for us to get it. So it's it to get ready and to put all this time into it. It's like I you know 10 days for example would that's way more work than than what it's actually worth. The way we came up with the 24 was based off of you know weekends like one weekend a month. Um every once in a while it might be two weekends a month depending on how close we are to a holiday because of the stuff that we want to sell. Well, for decorating for that holiday, that kind of a thing. And then, like I said, then there will be gaps where we won't have anybody at all because we won't even be open.

You were just going to build the barn for yourself and you're not, you decide not to do the business, would you have to go through the commercial building procedure? No. You would just be able to build your pole barn. Yeah.

I'm trying to still figure out why. What was the necessity for that? I don't know if he thought that the building was solely for that cuz he cuz I actually didn't talk I can't remember if he was in the meeting or not. I can't remember if he was in the meeting but I don't I I talked to him very briefly about hey you want to this is well it was through email I I believe we started talking through email and he said he sent me the link to you know you want to go through the state because I don't think he was in the meeting that when I talked with the ladies about what we were trying to do. So I just we just followed the link and did that. So the the reason I think we're asking a lot of questions is a home occupation for purposes of directed customers. Yeah. Who are purposely going for one thing only

who are there for a time frame and you can only have one limit. That's usually what we have. This is home occupation for open to the public. There's just a different standard of care. Sure. That that's why I appreciate you guys doing your job. Absolutely. Absolutely. the the one we keep referencing the the bicycle group that was a retroactive situation. It came to us under some complaints. It did. And I think that unfortunately I have a new notebook here. So my notes on that are at home. But um you're very

I was thinking that maybe they I was thinking I don't remember how we arrived at the tent. I was thinking that it was how often they actually did it. They request Yeah, they were requesting I think that we just took it, you know, but said they were only going to be open during the warm months. Mhm. That's right. They didn't open in the winter at all. That's right. Yeah. So, it was so it was pretty Yeah. Pretty condensed, I suppose. But they only did it on one day. Mhm. Okay. All right. Um, any more questions for him? Nope. All right. Thank you. Thank you.

So, what we have is the special exception and we have the two variances. So, I'd probably suggest that we vote on the special exception prior to the variances because if the special exception fails, then the variances are not needed. Um the conditions under discussion for the special exception were on the third page, third piece of paper type page. The petitioner shall seek and obtain annual occupancy permits. uh special exception to be called null and void if business ceases operations for 12 months. Occupation shall be open to the public not more than 24 days per calendar year. Special exception shall run with the petitioner not transferred. Building permit, improvement location permit, etc. within 12 months and then BA reserves the right to to revoke. I would probably suggest adding, not that it's a big deal, but adding that um notification to public safety officials.

Kayla, can I ask you one question? On the original staff report, you had listed 12. Where did you come up with a number 12 and then you went to 24? Was that be honest, Maria came up with the number 12? Uh but I believe that was just a starting point. We were simply thinking you didn't find that number [clears throat] somewhere. No, no. I believe we were thinking we we need to cap this somewhere and starting with like one time or one weekend a month seemed like a good place to start the conversation and that opened the dialogue with Mr. Stevens about this. Okay.

Can you read the the flea market language again for me? Is that was that in the garage sale?

Yeah. Okay. Um 156 063 temporary uses and structure standards. That's in um B4. No, I'm sorry. C1. Garage yard sales. Garage yard sales are permitted to occur four times per calendar year for a maximum of 30 days per calendar year. Garage yard sales shall be distinguished from flea markets in that garage yard sales are clearly incidental to residential uses while flea markets are commercial businesses and primary uses. In no instance shall this provision be interpreted as permitting the operation of a flea market and our provisions within the county for a home occupation allow for the commercial commercial facing business. That's That's the

um Yeah, we just look at Yeah. And then and then and I'll give you some Yeah. home. Well, I was also going to say, you know, the the GR back to the garage sale component, not to keep hanging hanging up on that, but he was saying he when he is open on a weekend he is open, that's three days, right? So this is eight times a year, eight weekends, right, out of the year that this would happen potentially maximum. I asked that and no, the answer was Oh, that's right. He maybe a day here and there. Okay. Ask that.

Okay. Under home occupation standards activities says the face-to-face wholesale retail sale of stocked inventories is not permitted except for incidental sales that do not exceed 25% of total home occupation sales. Mail order telephone internet sales as well as distribution of sold merchandise is permitted. Manufacturing activities are not permitted. M manufacturing is not permitted.

Also, face-to-face wholesale retail sale of stocked inventories is not permitted. It's 25% of the total

except except for incidental sales, which is garage sales um that do not exceed 25% of total home occupation sales. Was any of that vetted with petitioner beforehand? The nature of the business and the existing ordinances on their activities. We did not look so much at that particular uh piece mainly because these are in our mind didn't fit the mo the modern present- day idea of what a manufacturing use is. Um you know refurbishing antique furniture. If I had to look on our use chart, we might honestly call this more of an antique shop than anything. Um a custom furniture thing. Well, and the manufacturing per se is not happening in this barn. It's happening across the street.

Thought it was happening here. I thought they were This is the sale barn. So, he was building the stuff in the house at the barn across the street. His family's barn. No, no manufacturing is happening here or in this barn. That was my understanding. Yeah. Is that right? No. Yes. So it's it's home woodworking shop basically across the street and then this is just sales. So

he almost needs a home occupation for his woodworking shop if he's manufacturing things for sale. Um I'm reading here effects of operation under home occupation. There shall be no equipment or process used in the home occupation that creates noise, vibration, glare, smoke, fumes, odors, or electrical interference that is detectable without the aid of instruments off the premises as determined by the planning director. There shall be no electrical or mechanical equipment utilized in the home occupation that will create any visual or audible interference with radio or television reception. believe that means he's would be have noise violation, right? Or something that would be audible across property.

You may want to continue. I don't know. Um yeah, we don't have a noise ordinance to getting a little a hat on. So

the 25% is more concerning than manufacturing. The sole purpose is to move the business and sales to these events which is more than incidental. Purpose of these home occupation standards is to establish minimum requirements for homebased businesses in order to protect the residential character of Hancock County's residential areas, preserve property values, and prevent the hazards to persons and property that can result from residential commercial land use conflicts. Um, I guess I'd have to review the um some of the definitions, I guess, but

might be worth it to continue. Yeah, I was going to say because wood woodworking doesn't it doesn't feel like it fits manu manufacturing per se unless it was you know I'm going to build a hundred of this one decoration and have a stock of it that's for sale but that's not even before us I mean that's a different issue um really it's what's been presented to us which is the retail sales farm that's true yeah it's gonna ignore the manufacturing [laughter] port. Well, yeah, we should just we should ignore the manufacturing. You're right. I don't think that's that's a good catch. Yeah, we should just ignore the manufacturing. That's not even in front of us. Yeah.

I I think more an issue is the proportion of revenue that'll be coming if it's incidental. That's I think that's the issue that we're running into in home occupation as it relates public and that's what we've looked at before.

We know what we do. Should we get testimony about the proportion of the revenue? The proportion of the revenue. What's the 25%? Oh, yes. Gashian. Yes. Face the facetoface wholesale retail sale of stocked inventories is not permitted. um except for incidental sales that do not exceed 25% of total home occupation sales. So basically there would have to be 75% that would have have to be done online or you know populating in a flea market elsewhere or mall sorry

I mean I think the idea is mail order telephone internet sales that's fine but it's the face to face that's the issue. Well, I mean, does I did look and I didn't really find it, but the zoning classification of the property probably doesn't play in at all, does it? Because, you know, we we have the aggra this is an agricultural zone property. We have the aggra business ordinance. I know that's this isn't agriculture, so I'm not I I'm not trying to relate it to that, but there's a lot of there's a lot of face-to-face sales that go on on farms.

It's basically saying 75% of his sales has to be somewhere else than in on this premise. Mhm. Right. That's the way you have to look at it. Only sell 25% incidental. could be a condition. No, sorry. Okay. So, of the total sales for this LLC that's going to happen, only 25% can happen face to face on the property.

It'll run with the petitioner. So, anything the petitioner selling because the this will run not with the LLC which is informed. It has to be the petitioner. That's why we had them come back with their business, isn't it? Because they they had they refiled as as the business.

They didn't have a business at the time. So, there was really no wasn't really ripe to be here. If we were to if we were to continue and ask them to come back, we could well, they'd have to renotice. They'd have to do it all over again, right? They because they'd have to renotice as the LLC that's what the other folks did. I think I No, I don't think they did because they were in just the month. They did come back one month before. They were a little different because they were already doing it. That's kind of Yeah, that was that was that was a little bit different back pattern there.

And the neighbors were already upset about it. It was January through March. January to March, I think, is when we had them. And I think I think that 100% of the sales is going to be here. It sounds like So, am I allowed to talk to Caleb real quick? If she'd like to, she can, but um how we got and all of that is in our home occupation ordinance. It's county code. Oh, county code. Okay.

But no, our ordinance county code, planning and zoning code. I mean, our options are either we we can do a vote and I'm happy to put a package [sighs and gasps] of conditions together um or to continue those um it would be conditions should should there be a favorable vote but those are options Rhonda what is that section you were reading from Rhonda

um 156 066 home occupation standards that was M [clears throat] one

down under if you read to under um

parking and business vehicles. The home occupation shall not involve on-site customers, employees, meetings, or other events that necessitate the installation of any off- streetet parking spaces in addition to those required by this chapter for the dwelling unit. The on-site storage of business vehicles shall meet the requirements in 15669. I think for consistency purposes, it might be most appropriate that we do have a motion for continuence in order to allow for an entity for us to consider. We're just not ripe to consider this. we have a a precedent of of that. Although nothing is precedent in the B BCA, understand that. But um it it would be best if we had something of an of an occupation and an LLC to consider.

Yeah. I mean the it it references and I wondered about this the last time. It references owner operator. So, I mean, they're the I don't know that to me. I don't know that it really matters that much if it Okay. if the LLC cuz he he'd be the owner operator of the LLC and the owner of the home. But I think it was um the taxation issue we were concerned with with the remittance of I think that was the issue because there was a on the last one. Yes. Yeah. There was taxation issues.

Comment that this was a business and not a hobby. So what he was saying is that sales tax and all of that was collected when he was in the mall because he was a vendor in the mall and they collected it that he'll have to set all that up. Well, any uh any any thoughts? We were started to look at the conditions.

I I'm very differential to procedure into consistency and so I would make a motion for continuence because we do not have an entity and taxation issues um are upon us. I think there's some other concerns that reasons why I would make the uh the proposal. I do think there's a definitional issue with 25% limit of revenue. I think that's that's core and um I think there's other items we've we've discussed, but those are probably two of the procedural items that are just not resolved. a motion to continue uh until the next meeting at which case um we may have a better uh setup for an entity to consider this application.

All right. So, we've got a motion made by Mrs. Willard and a second by Mrs. Casey. Um all those in favor signify by saying I I oppose. Same sign. All right. Three to one with uh Mr. Rubble um deny. So this would then continue to next month. Kayla, is additional notice required? No additional notice. Just come back with the new entity. We don't need a notice under the new entity.

We didn't the last time. Okay. I would defer to Rhonda council. Not unless you asked for notice to be given again. If not, we typically don't. Okay. No additional fees or anything like that. Okay. All right. have any other direction on actions from the petitioner over the course of the next month like to resolve the this 25% revenue uh concern and maybe that's a variance I guess because there's Rhonda read a handful of things that maybe are some additional variances that need to be filed in which case they would need to notice renotice [snorts] you know if we were doing a variance against this revenue issue right

um to get a variance from that particular standard. Yeah, there looked like maybe we might have missed a couple of standards. So the um we'll continue to ignore the manufacturing um activities facetoface wholesale. Yeah. So it would be the item B1. I think we probably need to see a variance for that under the current business model. Yeah,

that gives us something we can work with the petitioner on. 25% entity. I do think we'll we'll probably want to see in the condition substantial conformance with the construction as presented. Um coordination a notice to the sheriff's office. Um advertising on social only, no um field posting. And then clarification on sub sub three on the special exception which is days, hours and um what days of the week? What hours and and total days recommended? I we would get some consistency from from staff between 12 and 24. A big difference.

If they're manufacturing on the site too, they'd need a variance for that too if they're Yeah, they didn't ask. Great. Yeah. I mean, they're missing some I think that I I agree. They're missing some things that they going to need approvals. Okay. Got all that. All right. So, we'll see uh we'll see you guys again next next month, unfortunately. Let's leave our ballots in your folders, please. So they can reuse those. Oh,

did you already toss it? I already big X on that one. So sorry. Well, then you'll get new ballots. I'll get new ballots just for paperwork. So I don't bring it in.

Okay. 7:51 already. Tried to do a good job. All right. Item number two was continued. Uh item number three uh will be Alisa Cox [sighs] Oakwood Drive, New Palestine. A variance uh for inground swimming pool [clears throat] swimming fun with pools. I did have a question on this one while she's getting set up. Rhonda, this is um Never mind, I just answered it. ready.

Yes.

So, in Melissa Cox of CRA Pools representing Mark and Katherine Riffle who have a property at 2155 South Oakwood Drive, Sugar Creek Township. This is zoned R2.5. Uh septic subdivision. septics located in the backyard of this property, which makes it a little tricky for them to locate a pool. Uh the option that uh was arrived at was to locate the pool on the north side of the lot in the back, also still in the backyard. Uh but but it required a reduction in the minimum 15t sideyard setback to 7 feet. Here you can see the location of the proposed pool and its location uh toward the property line needs a 10-ft separation from the septic field. I did ask u Alyssa whether or not there were other locations on the lot that could be uh looked at and as you can see from the septic setup. Uh there just really aren't many once you take into consideration the location of that septic field in the backyard. Couple other things just to go over this very quickly um that we can look at as far as what we might need to take into consideration. Um you are allowed to look at uh

why you know practical difficulty is the strict application of the terms of our zoning ordinance will it result in a practical difficulty in the use of the property? Um the situ So this is a situation that could be looked at as is the uh installation of a pool um something that is a a true practical difficulty in the use of this lot as a single family lot. Um that's something you could look at. Um you could also look at well is this variance hurting anything? Um is this still in keeping with you know the the general uh welfare? um also the adjacent property uh is this hurting or hindering or or hurting the value of the adjacent properties. So these are all things you can take into account um when you look at a variance like this. Another thing we're looking at in a case like this is that there is a sometimes a surrounding um pool deck. So, like a three-foot concrete uh walkway that would go around a pool like this. And sometimes what we see is that uh folks really enjoy their pool and then also decide to do maybe a burm and some landscaping and other things that then maybe affect adversely like the drainage of their neighbors property or something like that. So, those are other unintended kind of consequences that we see. Um, in the case of a pool like uh the one shown in this plan, um, we kind of looked at, okay, what what would it take to get to approval potentially. Um, so the variance shall apply only to the pool, wouldn't apply to any other structures on the property. This would just be a setback variance for this pool. It shall run with the property. uh the building permits related to this variance must be permitted or must be obtained within 12 months of the

approval date. So they've got 12 months to work it out with the health department, get a survey, all of these things uh that our department would require and an occupancy permit or a final permit uh permission to occupy the pool uh shall be obtained within 12 months of the approval of the building permit or the variance will automatically expire. Additionally, I would suggest adding something that's in your um in your typical conditions. Uh variance number five under addition I'm sorry, additional condition for variances. Number five, a stake survey must be obtained and stakes remain in the ground until final inspection is complete. We don't want anybody getting confused about where the edge of the pool needs to be and where the property line truly is. So that's my presentation.

All right. Any questions for Kayla, right? Uh the petitioner here.

Are you both going to speak? Oh. Um either I didn't know who you wanted to hear. I'm Alysa with Cray P. I swear you both way you're ready to talk when you're ready. Just both of you swear in. Oh, I'm Oh, sorry. Do you swear or affirm under the penalty of perjury that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Okay. Please both state your names and spell your last name. Alyssa Cox, C O X. Mark Riffle, R I F L E. Okay, you have seven minutes.

Okay. Um so we are here to you know to put in a swimming pool um for the riffle family. Um after looking at the property uh really this would be the only location for the swimming pool um to even if you look at the other side of the yard we would be getting into being too close to the septic on that side um and or getting into the 15t sideyard setback. Um, I know there was questions about like drainage. I believe the property is sitting is one of the higher properties. It sits in the in the neighborhood. So, drainage really is an issue. Also, we would have to um conform to and and meet all the requirements for erosion control during the inspection. So, that would be something that would have to be taken care of in order to get an occupancy permit. Is there a fence that runs along that blue line that we're not seeing?

There is. Yeah, there's a fence. Okay. And would you be planning any BMS or any other? No. Potentially if if anything we're we're talking about actually buy them online.

Can you move I'm sorry. Can you move over to the microphones? Make sure we get your recording. There there's things you can there there's approvals we need to get for it, but we would the fence right now is an aluminum black see-through fence. And so the plan would be to make it, you know, a black flat fence on that side. We've talked to our neighbor who's most impacted by this. They're in support of the project uh and they're also in in support of uh whatever fencing uh we would put in. They've also I also talked to them about potentially doing uh some sort of tree or shrubs, tall grasses, uh something along there and they were in support of that as well. But but yeah, we're planning on leaving the fence there hopefully.

Um dog and little kids. So nice to have any objections to the conditions that were presented by staff? Um it would only apply to the pool. get your work done in 12 months and then there's a new recommendation to stake everything out and make sure we wouldn't be able to just go by the beacon map. I in order to Okay,

so we've had some fairly serious problems with se with pools um and because it's because the inspections they they think that they have a property line defined by beacon and all that stuff, but they don't and then they end up in the neighbor's yard or something like that. So, I know it's an extra expense, unfortunately, but it's insurance that you're not going to have find a problem with the inspectors. Uh, would it just would it just need to be a boundary survey? We don't have anything that shows the improvements just just to stake out. You would you would stake that property line that you're budding there. Um,

yeah. Yeah, that I think that is I I the the property line is set up via a plat. the property's platted, right? So, it's the property line is already set in stone. Yeah. So, um happy. I I I think that's a reasonable request. I would just ask that we don't have to get an alta survey. No, I know. It's not for anything like that. It's it's a visual really. So, when the inspector shows up, they've got something to look at. They can pull a string between the the pins and Yeah. Yeah. We would like that too, just for our to protect. It's safety. It's insurance. Yeah. And and would that be required in connection with the issuance of the permit?

Uh you would just have to have it done. I don't think I I mean it might be good if you brought documentation that it was done so that Scott knows but yeah be good. Yeah. Um these swimming pools the the concrete around it that's needed right to hold the Is this one of these pools that you got to pour concrete around it to hold it down into the ground? Is that Yeah, it's a a steel wall construction. and it has a a um concrete footer that's poured around and holds it in place. It's a concrete bottom and it's fitted with a vinyl liner retainer. So, we're the the reason I'm asking so we're issuing a we we're considering a variance for a setback to the edge of the pool, not the edge of the concrete is my understanding.

Or on that side, yes, I on the 10-ft, you know, for the sanitary, they are stating that it has to be from the concrete to the, you know, so that's where we move the pool. Um understand that. Um so but yes we're requesting I I mean 3 feet is really the minimal it you know to make ADA you for a wheelchair to you know if they had to go around the swimming pool or something. I mean we really don't want to go any narrower than that.

So you'll have about 4 feet of lawn between the concrete and the and the fence. and you won't that that won't really change your drainage at all onto your neighbor's property. You're going to keep the same grades. In fact, on that drawing where the blue line is located and a little to the uh right of the blue line on the drawing that's on the screen, that's where the drainage swale is at its deepest.

So, um the the curvature doesn't really go all the way down and to the right of that blue line. And it's important to us to get water away, you know, from the pool, too, so that um there it it doesn't negatively affect it. So, I mean, if we need to put in like French drains or something, if there's some sort of, you know, drainage issue, we would absolutely, you know, be aware of that and make sure that yeah, thing is draining. And I would assume that the inspector would bring that up too when they're um inspecting for erosion control.

Yeah. Have you put a pool this close to a house foundation before? I That's pretty that might compromise the footing. No. Um, so it it does go by the 45 degree rule. So, um, as long as we are so the pool at that point, um, so what do I have? Six, sorry, the six feet. Correct. Yeah. So, the pool depth and the depth away as long as we're 45. Yeah. Where is it? There's no You cleared it. You clear the trapezoid of the footing. Yes. Yep. So, that is a concern, but it's been taken care of here. Yeah. Okay.

More questions. You like when I start talking about foundations and stuff, don't you? Fun stuff. All right. Thank you. Do you have anybody that wants to speak in opposition to this variance? No opposition? Any government officials? They're not here. You have rebuttal period, but you've got nothing to rebut, so I assume you're good. So, okay. [laughter] All right. Uh, discussion on the variance, discussion on conditions. Could you just read the stake survey language for me one more time?

A stake survey must be obtained and stakes remain in the ground until final inspection is complete. ready for a motion. I would um I probably should have asked them when they were up here, but the neighbor I mean they they testified that the neighbor was in support, but it'd be nice for them to present a letter or something from the when they come and get their permit just to make sure it's they do have support. Maybe I I don't know if we're considering that. If you consider that testimony, I guess, as part of your decision making, it'd be Yeah. So it's

so it's noticed here hears say testimony they were noticed. So yeah I guess that makes them by default in support. So okay. All right. Do what you okay planned to do. So a motion um should this variance receive approval then staff conditions one two and three regarding the stake survey uh will accompany. Second. All right. It's been moved and seconded that should the variance be accepted, it be um con condition on the conditions that were just stated. Um all those in favor signify by saying I

oppose. Same sign. All approved. Please pallets now. Okay. Case number uh 25- 2629. The variance is granted. A vote of 420.

All right, you're all set. Thank you. Thanks for coming in. All right, moving along. Item number four. It's a Daryl White uh variance for a setback for wooden staircase tonight is Daryl White, DHL WLLC. Uh, and this is for his subject property at 10361 US40 East in Charlottesville. This is in Jackson Township and it is zoned commercial community. So, this is a a project that um started out as a uh without a permit. Um, and so we are kind of asking for a variance uh for setbacks uh after the fact here. So you can see what what he built and why he needs the setback in the pictures that are included. Uh Mike Gibson has also done a survey showing where these improvements land in relation to the property line. Um a little background, this is a residential structure, a very very very old residential structure that was an existing and very dilapidated uh triplex in Charlottesville. Um Mr. White has improved the property and really fixed it up. Um, as such though, he jumped the gun and didn't get permits. And so that's why we're here tonight. Um, there are village overlay uh requirements here that give him a lot of leeway in those setbacks. Um, as you'll see, the typical 15 foot setback in the

situation of this back stairway due to the village overlay standard, which looks at neighboring properties, um, actually reduces his required setback to just six believe six feet in this case. And so the reduction he's asking for then of 6 and 1/2 ft. Um, so the reduction he's asking for then is from 6 and 1/2 ft to 2.8 ft, which is where the staircase is presently built. So to get to a yes on this or an approval, uh, we did have some conditions to look at. Uh, first the petitioner must work with the Hancock County Building Department to ensure that the staircase is up to building code first and foremost. If this isn't up to code, this is not something we're saying is okay. This is very much uh very much um dependent on uh obtaining a permit. Number two, condition. The variance approval shall apply only to the existing staircase and shall run with the property. And I think we would take that to mean a staircase in this location in case they would have to say rebuild that staircase. Number three, building permits relating to this variance must be obtained within 12 months of the above approval date and an occupancy permit must be obtained within 12 months of approval of the building permit or the variance will automatically expire. So if Mr. White cannot get a permit for retroactively for this staircase within 12 months. This variance expires and so we're right back to violation.

All right, so that's where we're at. I will turn it over to uh Mr. White and unless you have questions. I did have a question. Um has the building department reviewed it at all? Have they looked at plans of it or anything? Are they What is their thoughts on its ability to meet their residential building code? Mr. White would need to uh submit plans for a permit in order for the building department to review. That has not been done. Okay. That's my understanding. Okay.

Are you both going to speak? I'll swear you both in at the same time. Do you swear or affirm under the penalty of perjury that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? I do. Okay. Please state your name and spell your last name. Daryl White, whit e Daniel Lynch, L Y N C. Okay, you have seven minutes. Built the staircase to code and we need setback. The neighbors have a problem with it. have completely refurbished, made the structure a thousand% better.

When it comes to the permits, we contract, we've used the same guys for seven years. Um, we didn't, you know, we couldn't help that they didn't do their due diligence on it and now we're paying the price for it. We've paid for everything. Um, hopefully what you guys see is a,000% better than what was there. We built them out to code. um from our you know from what we know but we didn't realize so the stairs that were there before were straight up and down I mean you wouldn't have went up them you know what I mean so we built them more user friendly we're not kind of you know limiting ourselves to who can go up and down these stairs who can live in there who we can rent to who we can't you know so that's why they're built the way they are if you'd have seen them before

before they were straight up and down yeah And they were falling down like it was bad. It was dilapidated. So go ahead. This is a rental property, right? It's a triplex. Triplex. Okay. We went back to what it was. Okay. Yeah. So, yeah. Before it was straight up and down. The way they're built now is two code. So, it comes out and then sideways with a landing and then down, which you see in the picture. Is that an alley along the back of that? Yep. And you can fit fire trucks. You can fit ambulance, everything. We pull trailers with backos and stuff down that alley. There's plenty of parking. Is that paved or is that a gravel?

It's gravel. We actually take care of that whole alley. We fill in all the potholes. We bring in the gravel. No one pays us for that. We take care of all that. He's lived there for years. His mom actually lives a street back, so they're real familiar with the community. Okay. So, you guys do the whole house. Oh, got it. And yeah, that's where they failed to pull all the permits they needed. So that's why we're where we are right now. Got it. Still engaged with you. Yeah. But we're more or less taking on the chin and just doing it ourselves. So that's why we're here today.

And it's, you know, it's stopped us from moving forward with our cash out refies and everything else. And it's just, you know, seven, eight months or however long it's been. So we're like really trying to get it figured out. Sure. We're willing to do you know what it takes. What it takes. Is this the only remaining item that it t is this it? This is it. Okay. And there's no other way. If you look at that, there's no other way to make that user friendly. I mean, we did it as nice as possible and as user friendly as possible as we could. You believe it's to code? Oh, yeah. Yeah. You you pulled the permits for all the interior. Oh, everything.

You pulled all the permits for all the interior. Uh, so what was done on the inside was, you know, drywall, whatnot. Didn't really need wasn't structural or anything like that. So, there's been no permits pulled on the property period for the restoration or for the renovation. Correct. Somebody building the building probably knows better than that. Said what? Somebody that's going to redo a a structure like that probably should know better than that. Yeah. Yeah, you would say so. Yeah.

In seven years. I mean, this isn't even a They're used to this. You know what I mean? So, we're not sure what exactly happened. If you look at the times that we started and built and did, it was a winter. So, I don't know if they were just I really don't understand why they didn't because now we got to put up with this and we probably still would have had to do variance to be able to do this staircase anyways cuz I would have never put it back how it was. Never would have done that. No way. I don't know how it passed whenever it did. You know what I mean? I mean, well, they didn't have to have Oh, okay. Well, that was horrible. [laughter] Yeah.

Yeah. Look, I know the biggest question we got asked was about safety vehicles and there's more than enough room to get down through there. So, what what goes to the um I guess it would be the west? I mean, you could have maybe you could just maybe go straight west off the the landing maybe. But is that a is that the driveway or something? Is that the issue? What's a hard time?

What do you mean west? Like going back towards Greenfield. Yeah. Like if you if you started the stair here and just took it, it just came straight straight down towards this this car. Yeah. So, there's actually uh units there, uh AC units. And that's another apartment right there. Okay. With another concrete pad, you know, for their little porch or whatnot.

I want to say there was something Are you um there are some conditions that were presented by staff um one is that you need to work with the building department to ensure it's the the staircases to code. Two um that the variance approval should only only apply to the existing staircase and one with the property. So you're not building any more staircases. Correct. No, it's not.

And then the building permits related to the variance must be obtained. So you're ready to obtain permits for this which may a a permit might act other items. You might be aware pulling a permit for this and there might be some other items identified. Okay. All right. But you're you you would you're okay with those uh conditions, all three of those. Okay.

What do they mean by that? They used to they used to recommend like double permit fees or something like that, but I think it still is. Is it something like that? Yeah. Okay. Ain't that right? Double double fees. They'll have double fees. Okay. Is that something that needs to be in a condition or is that just already going to happen? Okay. It just happens. Okay. Standard. Okay. All right. Uh any additional questions for the petitioners? And we have an open violation right now. Is that what we have? Because we had a complaint. I understood it.

There's an open complaint. This came in through a complaint. So we would probably want to stay any activity with regard to the open violation. Um assuming that you're good faith complying with these these items. Right. And from my understanding, um, they came out, took pictures, measured, and did everything already. Correct. You've been out there. The inspector already Yeah, we already had them out. I mean, they came out multiple times. Oh, okay. Yeah, they already went out and did and told us. I mean, as far as we know of what they said, everything was already to code. The only problem we had was this variance. Oh, that being in the setback. Yes. Okay.

Yeah. So the building inspector has been out and looked at the stairs. Yeah, they that's what he's saying. They took the picture. They did all this. That was our complaint. They were our complaint. We didn't have complaints from like citizens. It was like Got it. Got it. Okay. Everyone's told us we've done a great job. So [laughter]

So can I ask Kayla a question? So explain to me in this circumstance, you've got a structure that's already built and we've got to give them a variance before they'll even sign off on the and do the inspection of the new construction. Is that where we're at? So, where we're at is we know there's a violation because they didn't get a building permit to do the work they did, which involved expanding the stairways into the setback. So, that's where we know we need a variance. Um, they have not applied for their permits. That is what we need to do to start review. However, s typically we will stop them at the counter if we see a setback issue that requires a visit to this board.

Okay. Yeah. I I will say the building has been done like the exterior. They really did preserve a lot of the nice historic features including the historic cornness and have definitely um improved the state of that corner. Completely agree. We took an eyesore and made it actually enjoyable to look at. I've heard that they were going to tear it down and everything else. So, I was worried. I think that Yeah. And we made it nice to where, [snorts] you know, our rent's pretty reasonable, but we made it nice enough to

We rent houses. That's what we do. He has over 30 rentals. We have a bunch of rentals between each other. We know what to put in in certain areas. And like I said, he grew up there. His mom lives back there. We made it super nice to where it might keep, sorry, but like trashier people out of there. And that's why we did what we did and why we made it as nice as we did. So, we didn't go there to throw it together. be a slum lord, put a bunch of people that ain't going to pay you, gonna destroy the property, whatever. And we we made it nice. So, that was our whole objective when we did this. Okay. All right. So, they're not going to get a CFO until the inspection's done, basically, is what we're saying. So, he has to review the plans. We're going backwards now. Yeah. Right. All right. Kind of a restart. Yeah.

With the proper paperwork. Okay. Any more questions? Is this the first one you've done? first what project like this. Oh no. Oh yeah. Like I said, he has over 30 rentals to sell and hell. We have what, seven or eight between each other. So that's why I don't understand the whole permit issue of why that didn't get done, which we can't change now. We can only move forward. Yeah. Okay. All right. Thanks, guys. Thank you.

We have anybody wants to speak in opposition? Any government officials? None. All right. Discussion on the conditions. I will make a uh I don't I will make a motion should this uh variance be approved staff conditions one two and three will attach and add number four that during the pendency of the building permit process any fines related to the open complaint will be stayed second. All right. Moved and seconded that. Should the variance be approved, it be subject to the stated conditions. All those in favor signify by saying I.

Opposed. Same sign. Motion carries. Go ahead and fill out your ballots. That was Okay. Variance and case number 25-2630 is granted a vote of 4 to zero.

All right. Thank you guys to submit your plans to the building department. Conditions, you have to get a comment. Yep. So now you need to apply for a permit. Thank you. All right. We'll see you guys.

All right. We're doing good. Now, let's uh move on to item number five. A um special exception for an accessory dwelling above the barn. [snorts] Pull that up. got a real thing for gable returns and they kept them on this building which is a real relief. So I was happy to see that they kept that. All right. So, Bridget and Ryan Tuni live at 6288 West Steinmeer Road. And I don't know if this is the correct Oh, did we did spell Steinmeer correct tonight. I misspell it every time I try. Um, Sugar Creek Township and this is R.1 R 1.0. The request is for a special exception and it does not require any variance requests. I think this might be about the first one ever that is just straightforward, just the special exception, no variances from our uh special exception standards for ADUs. You can see here, this is a larger lot. Um I believe it's about three acres. We've got a site plan here kind of showing the layout where the proposed well and septic are for this ADU. Uh

where the barn is, how the ADU will fit in, uh where the existing home is. The accessory structure that this is scheduled to go on top of is currently a pole barn. We do not have drawings as far as what the ADU will look like long term. So those are things that this board can establish some sort of guidelines on like um obviously it will have to comply with inspection and we'll have to get a permit and meet building code for a dwelling unit. Um so that's something. Um, but if you say wanted to require a front porch around the walk-in entrance or some other feature that would make this um more u residential in nature, that's definitely something that this board can add conditions to. So just to clarify why this does not need any variances. Um it is uh not exceeding 850 square feet in area. It is located above a detached garage or workshop and that those are really the only two criteria it had to meet to not require a variance. Um I would point out there is nothing in our code that states that ADUs are temporary. ADUs are an accessory use. It is solely through our treatment of them as special exceptions that we have placed any temporary timelines on them. Part of this request is for it to be uh not so temporary. While this initial request is for the tunis to house their parents there, uh

they would like to keep the ADU classification indefinitely. There is some concern from the health department about this regarding if this constitutes long-term two single family dwellings on the same parcel. Uh, I guess what I would say there is if the health department does have trouble with this uh, permit or any others, it will hold up that permit in the health department when they inspect um, this sort of um, ADU permit or at some point over the years uh, through the conditions that we will put on this um, as far as requiring that an ADU get an annual occupancy permit or if the ADU becomes a public nuisance, then the special exceptions revoked. like these are all things that we typically also attach to special exceptions um that we could put in place there. Um so the conditions that typically get put in place with an ADU are uh as follows. The accessory dwelling shall be for the exclusive purpose of providing a temporary residence of the owner's family member. Only petitioners family members can occupy this dwelling under the special exception. Uh, number two, the special exception shall be limited to and run with the current owners and shall not be transferable to any subsequent owner. Three, the property shall be served by single electric meter, gas meter, and mailing address. Four, the owner shall seek and obtain an occupancy permit and annual occupancy permits for the accessory dwelling. Five, when the special exception has expired or when the accessory dwelling is no longer needed for the stated purpose, the living quarters and kitchen shall be removed, the building shall no longer function as a dwelling. Six, the BCA reserves the right to revoke the special

exception at a public hearing if the accessory dwelling is demonstrated to constitute a public nuisance. And let's talk once again, public nuisances can mean a number of things. Um, if once again this becomes a health violation, which would be the health department's fear, that would constitute a public nuisance, and that's the language that could revoke it.

Um, seven, the owner shall record a commitment to the satisfaction of the planning director stating the above terms or whatever conditions this board agrees to. And eight, a building permit and/or improvement of location permit relating to the special exception must be obtained within 12 months of the above approval date. and an occupancy permit must be obtained within 12 months of approval of the permit or the special exception will automatically expire. A couple notes on this. If this board uh would like to uphold the idea or of a permanent ADU versus temporary as nothing in our zoning ordinance or ADU standards state temporary in relation to ADU um conditions one and five could be struck. Other air other conditions proposed here are equally effective in making sure that this does not become a public nuisance and that it stays part of the primary uh use of this slot which is still single family residential. Like I said at the beginning of this presentation, an additional condition requiring architectural features like a one-story porch around the ADU entrance or any number of other um requirements which once again when this goes to uh receive a building permit, it obviously will have to meet certain design requirements like egress windows, things like that. Um, but you certainly could require something at this body. Uh, if that's your wish. So, that's where I'll leave things. Um, I will turn it over to the tunis. Um, unless you have any questions for me about this one.

Just have one. Um, I regularly seek a waiver of restoration um in and occupancy and to build and then have to take this this out as a big expense. So, uh, how often are we historically seeing the removal or enforcing that or requesting it? I mean, the whole thing. I'm going to turn that over. Dennis, do you have any knowledge about that at this point? I know you're working through annual occupancy permits right now. How often do you have people report back that they don't need the ADU anymore and they're tearing things out? I

haven't seen any. I mean, it's a it's a variance. So, I mean, if it doesn't matter if it's the Tunis or whoever owns it, that it'll always be there, right? No, no, this is a special exception. Oh, it's a special exception. I thought it was a This is actually rare in that most of our ADUs do require variances, but because this is a second story ADU and it has meets the square footage, we're good. Got it. So, it's just a special exception and it can be connected with the tunis. Okay.

And what that could ultimately mean because I know like convenience stores obviously are also special exceptions and we all know they don't go away. Um, but we could also say, you know, okay, so this expires once say the Tunis move out in 50 years or so. If somebody else buys the property and says, well, I really like the idea of this being an ADU. uh if that is still something that this board requires to be a special exception, they are more than welcome to come back to this board and also apply for that ADU. They Well, we're [laughter] still sending out annual occupancy permits.

They [clears throat] will know. Yep. Okay. Any more questions for Kayla? No. petitioner here, I assume. Yeah,

I'll swear you both in. You both going to speak? Do you swear or affirm under the penalty of perjury that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Please state your name. Spell your last names. Bridget, last name Tunny. T U N. Griffin. G R I FF I N seven minutes. Um we want to build this um we're proposing to build this ask you to come a little so you're closer to the microphone self speaking there. So no problem. Sorry.

No it's okay. We are proposing to build this ADU above our existing pole barn. Um so we can reside our aging parents to keep them close to us. Family is important. Um, I'm a nurse and just to keep them close and be able to tend to them as they grow older. You uh there's a lot of conditions that were put up there. We uh have you had a chance to look through and and think through those or any comments on those conditions? I I need more time to think to think through and understand all the conditions.

Sounded like from those condition only only one and five one and five. Yeah. Oh. Um, so one is what was the fifth? And the [clears throat] fifth one was requiring you to remove the uh the kitchen from the unit if it was no longer used as an accessory dwelling. Um, why don't we talk through them?

Yeah. Um so one is that it can only be for um family members and that um only family members can occupy under the special exception. So it wouldn't be available for rental to third parties. Um that that's really the intent there. The number two is that it only is going to be in the name of the petitioner. So it' be um uh Bridget and Ryan. Uh so it will run with with um the applicants, the current owners. It wouldn't be transferable unless you come back here or someone comes back here and requests that um it has to have a single meter for electric, gas, and mailing address. And there's an occupancy permit and annual annual re renewal of that for an ADU. And here's number five that can be waved. talked about when it's expired or when no longer needed, the living quarters and kitchen shall be removed and the building shall no longer function as a dwelling. Um, okay. And then number six, we can revoke it if we get complaints um which may result in removal as well. And um there's a commitment to the satisfaction of the planning director seating the above terms although we would put it in our special exception approval as well. And then finally you would have to get any type of permit within 12 months. So if you don't go and get it, it this expires. The other item we would add is that there might be and we would like to discuss with you what is this thing going to look like design standards. So would it look uh like substantial conformance to the existing either garage structure or home structure? Is it usually a question we ask? So maybe we'll start with anything in those first eight that you have particular concerns with

number five. Five in that and specifically about the removal. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean that um she does Mhm. Yeah. Once they you know, God willing live forever, but once they move on um it's very costly and we've had we don't have our official building plans and we should soon we hope to have them by tonight. Um but we have, you know, proposed idea of how much it would cost and we couldn't, you know, we we wouldn't want to do it to have to tear down. We have um you know, other ideas. is I have out of town siblings who could come stay um you know down the line for for the proposed use of it after but I that'd be tough to build and then tear down.

And what and what will it look like? What do you with the outside of it mostly is what we're concerned with. The inside is the outside will match the existing barn. Um I mean it will have windows and a and a deck off the front or off the off the back towards the back of the property. Um, but the siding will match the existing barn.

Yeah. So, I when I was reviewing this case, since there weren't plans of that, I was going to ask for a condition that um you present that to the staff's uh satisfaction. So, we kind of leave it to Kayla and her staff to determine if it's satisfactory to meet that requirement. So, you wouldn't have to come back and show it to us necessarily. Okay. But, um, you'd have to get their approval prior to the building permit approval, if that makes sense. Okay. Yeah. You're just concerned their aesthetic approval. Yeah. Aesthetic approval.

We're working with the Are You're not going to rent it out to the public or to general people like it'll be all family. someone I mean you're not intending post that they know they have it's being built from my my parents however sure my yeah my sister or my brother uh so all family I think you still fit within the conditions then because number one says

for exclusive use of family so as long as you're continuing to use it for family, you would not have to take out the kitchen or living quarters. Do you have any plan to like Airbnb it or anything like that? We haven't thought that far. Um, what we I think that's kind where you probably cross the line in these conditions.

Okay, I see. That's really what that whole kitchen thing is in there for is just to make sure that it doesn't end up as a rental property or a short-term rental or something like that. That they're kind of taboo, I guess, around here. So, um, this particular property, I was talking to Kayla about it. One thing that that I I like about it is that it's it's an R1 zoning. It's over three acres. So having two residences there does not affect the density of that zoning's requirement if that makes sense. So that zoning would require what do we say Kayla? One and a half acres per dwelling unit. So you know it's one of the things about that that ADUs get some push back on is is density increasing and you're not really increasing the density from our zoning requirements. So that makes it uh you know pretty pretty straightforward from that perspective. So, so it's really you're you're really creating an apartment for visiting family long like long-term visits. So, it would be various family members that would come in and stay for a length of time.

Okay. All right. Any more questions? All right. Thank you. Anybody here wants to speak in opposition to this petition? Government officials? None. Oh, sorry. Yep. Time to kind of say,

you swear or affirm under the penalty of perjury that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Yes. Please state your name, spell your last name.

Gina Renegger. R I N I N G- er. Um, it's not really opposition. And I guess it's just more or less um I drove past the property cuz my farm backs up to this particular um uh area and I just wondered how the the barn that they're going to renovate is a singlestory barn. So that's why I guess I just was asking additional questions on how but I guess that's maybe not for me to ask. That's going to be for you guys to approve once you do see the plans. Is it concerned the structural integrity of the the second floor?

It's a very old just an old aluminum pole barn, singlestory, a large door, sliding door in the front and the accessibility above that door is only I mean I I don't I don't measure it or anything. What 5 10 feet if that. It's not heightwise to stand up above this barn. So, I was just wondering how they're going to design it so it doesn't affect the neighborhood on their resale, that something is sitting next door to them that's not quite up to par, I want to say. So, I just I just want to be sure that somebody is covering that. You know, it's not like I'm opposing it because I think, you know, like you said, it's a large piece of property and there's not going to be any problems with the special, you know, separate driveway and everything. And who polices on who she rents to? You know, it's we did receive, you know, her testimony that she is going to rent to family, but I've since I am in real estate, I see all the time that doesn't happen. And the other thing is that some of some mortgage companies, new lenders will require the apartment to have the kitchen removed. Just so that you know that if you ever go to resell. So, I've had that before as well. So, it's not automatic that it's going to stay the way it is. And most buyers when they do see something like that, they're going to assume that they can just rent it out to whoever. They won't show their face back up here again. And who's going to police that? So, it's just just food for thought that I don't know about.

He sends a notice once a year for that. But yeah, so they would they would get the notice and then then it's I guess up to the neighbors to find out, you know, they come in and complain. Other than that, you're right. I mean, it could just do whatever it's doing back there unless somebody complains at that point. So, it's an annual occupancy and and you would send that out and if it came back with a different name on it or didn't come back at all, then we would have a um a perically someone most of the time out there people stay to themselves. You know, like I said, I'm I'm not opposing it. I just would like to see more. I that's why I attended today was just to see more information because I can't figure out how in the world they're going to do that,

you know, with the structure that they currently have. Uh, and it's like I said, it's an old metal, so it's going to have to be replaced. Uh, most of that metal is going to have to be replaced on the exterior of it, uh, to bring it up to par. So, I I didn't know how it's going to be done very easily, okay, when she said something like that. So, that's all it was. Just more additional questions that I couldn't sit back there and raise my hand, you know, and you guys answer my questions. So, okay, that's all. All right. Thank you. Uhu. All right. you have um the petitioner has a rebuttal period here if you'd like to respond to any of those questions or comments.

Three minutes as far as the rebuttal and how to build. We would be adding on to the existing barn and and building the ADU above that on the new barn. I think um the builder called it gable style, so he would pop it up that way to meet the height requirement. Um so I don't know if that answers that question on how how we would build it or how we how what our approach is. Yeah, it's not going to be higher than or built on top barn which she said it's a level but it's a pretty high bar. It could have a lot. Yeah, it's within you're building a you're building a gable

that'll you'll have a ridge and you'll have a gable that's facing the west. Yes. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah. Of the max height of Yeah. But still within the limits of the max maximum height. Okay. Um, and you guys, you said you were you were okay with the uh you made the comment that you wanted to to look over the conditions. Were you are you good with the explanation that we gave or do you want to

I think I have to ask for number one if that could be removed. I I don't know that we've thought past, you know, if once my parents move on, um we've had some ideas and mainly involving siblings, um but also have, you know, friends, um or a babysitter that could stay. So, I asked that number one could be removed.

Okay. All right. We'll we'll discuss the uh conditions here in our next next phase of discussion. So any other questions for them? Were we wanting were you wanting number five removed also? Yes. Okay. All right. That it good. All good. All right. Thanks, guys. All right. So any uh further discussion or discussion on um the conditions?

Was there any specific language in the um application about family member or how we noticed it? The long-term intent is to maintain the ADU indefinitely as a legal habitable unit. The way it read was the purpose of the petition is to allow a special exception for an accessory dwelling above the barn for ADU not to exceed 850 square ft. I guess our options can be to grant this special exception for family members and then require a return for a change of use for individuals. So, anyone that's an option administrative headache for us, an enforcement issue for us

that it's only family is an enforcement nightmare. Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah. Well, we're there now. That's what it says now. Well, um I guess what I would say whatever we have now can always be changed with a subsequent special exception for use for for for different use. I sorry I interrupted you.

No, I I was getting ready to think out loud, I think. But um really the intent of number one in my mind has always been to to prevent uh it becoming a rental one and five quite honestly. And so I'm wondering if condition number one just states that that this is not it's it's for their use their their use and not for a rental. It's not not for financial gain essentially or something like that. I don't know if that's

legal legal tough language or not, but just there's nothing in the code that talks about family. It just says single family dwellings constructed and used as accessories to the primary dwelling on the property otherwise commonly known as mother-in-law quarters and granny flats shall be either attached to and designed to designed and constructed as part of the primary structure or located above a detached garage or workshop and no case may exceed 850 ft. So, it doesn't even talk about family in there other than it the name of it, but that's just what they're calling it. Yeah. So, um

I think that's feasible that you could change that. Yeah. I I don't know. Take out um for owner's family member to owner's personal use. Yeah. Something like that. whatever is fair language. I mean, I think that the intent of an ADU is for somebody, and like I said before, we're not changing the density of the zoning here. And so, this is an opportunity for them to have to have a dwelling unit that they can use uh for long-term visitors of, you know, friends and family. So,

I would change the first one to say the accessory dwelling unit shall be for the exclusive purpose of providing a temporary residence for the owner's personal use. Um, the dwelling shall not be used as a rental or short-term rental under the special exception.

Yeah, I think that's fine. Yeah. about five. When the special exception is expired, maybe we strike or when they no longer needed for stated purpose one. Typically what has happened is in cases like this um we have said like for example if it's a situation like this we've said uh pull the stove and so it is a lot of times as simple as remove the stove and the electric hookup for it and turn it into more of a uh kitchenet than a full kitchen. But once again, what they do after we inspect that and so many people enjoy at this point in our county, two kitchens,

canning kitchens are increasingly popular in the country. Things like this happen. So once again, enforcability is not great. And if you want to have two kitchens, by all means, I would love to have a cut. Yeah. I mean, I think we get the issue on and we would have to re request a special exception if we have the annual the property sells. It seems we pick it up there. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Really number five though when you say it's no longer needed for its stated purpose. Well, we've re we've changed what the stated purpose was in number one. It's for the owner's personal use. So, it's no longer their personal use. Mhm. And I think that would be as long as they live there.

Yeah. I mean, they may walk back to the barn and just decide they're staying the night back there, you know, fix breakfast in the morning. So, okay. Ready for a motion? I'm ready if you are. Okay.

So, should the special exception be approved, um, all staff recommendations will attach with the following edits. First, for number one, the accessory dwelling shall be for the exclusive purpose of providing a temporary residence for the owners, I guess, for the special exception holder's personal use. It shall not at any time be used as a rental or short-term rental. um strike number five and add a new item. I guess the new new number eight um is that all architectural features must receive staff approval prior to application or concurrent with the application of the permit.

Second, you're okay with approving that in the office? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, good. Okay. They they probably trust you more than they trust us. So, all right. Um, been moved and seconded that should this special exception be approved, it be subject to the stated conditions. All those in favor signify by saying I.

Oppose. Same sign. Motion carries. Fill out your ballots. Sorry. Okay. Case number 25-2631 for the special exception. It is granted a vote of 420.

All right. Thanks for hanging in there with us. Yeah. [laughter] All right. Uh other business, we are going to push the election of officers. That was really just the uh vice president spot to be filled. We'll just deal with that in January. If we have an issue next month, we can appoint a um stand in alternate members rule change. I'm just signing a document this evening on that. The wait the cooling off period is expired, I guess, as I understand it. And um zoning violations report, we'll just get that next month as well. You didn't have that ready to go. So,

the alternate uh members. Yes. Let's talk about that. Yeah. Um where did that go? I had it.

I have an extra. Thanks. Um,

do we So the the the planning commission and the commissioners will be appointing members and then Spring Lake and Shirley both need to. So will you be notifying all those parties or do you want me to do it or

Sure can. Okay. Mhm. We can I can get in touch with everybody and let them know and and yeah, if Sandy, if you have anybody in mind in Spring Lake, for example, that you think might be a good alternate, um that would probably be helpful information. And same for any anybody here. It would be really helpful if there was, you know, some recommendation of of somebody that might be a good uh alternate member. I I think that Mike and Lacy, your two are pretty limited because they're from the plan commission, so there's really not much to choose from there. Um, but yes, Spring Lake, somebody uh would be a great thing to bring be able to have a name in mind. Same thing with uh Shirley and Scott. Uh I'll probably just be notifying the board of commissioners that uh they need to have an alternate um for you as well. So um that one's wide open. Mhm. You were a little concerned about next year, I think, right, of sitting on this board. Time commitment.

I'll take a look at it. Okay. Just let the commissioners know. Okay. All right. Uh calendar was also in your packets um for review. Is everybody still good with the 6:30 time? There was a strange little conversation on Tuesday night about bumping us up to six o'clock at the plan commission. So that may happen. That that wouldn't affect me. It's fine. I would rather not, but 30 minutes isn't the end of the world. So the extra 30 minutes is helpful to you. 6:30. Other than we would be getting home at 8:30 instead of 9. [laughter] It's past my bedtime.

I'm kind of with Scott. I I I do like to get out of here earlier, but that extra 30 minutes is helpful since I I come here from Canada on Thursday nights. So, but yeah, it's kind of helpful. But I have no opinion either. Okay. I was getting out outnumbered, I think, Tuesday night. So, but we'll keep it there for now. And if you guys think about it, you just It would be best if we can I don't know, maybe keep them, but I would like for them to be the same because otherwise I'm going to mess it up. Yeah. So, and show up at the wrong time probably. That would be ideal. We all show up at 6:30. Yeah. Mess it up for sure. So,

anything else exciting? Um, I don't think so. Um, no, not really. Do you want me to have uh the alternate sort of some idea of I guess at any rate I'll inform the appointing bodies what they need to do before next month's meeting and it would probably be a miracle if they've got names back to me before next month meeting. But we'll aim at least for uh letting them know here's what we need you guys to do. Um so probably a two-parter. here's what we need you to do. And just a little bit of instruction on the ballots

and like just a just a a like we all just a fresh refresher maybe or maybe just even given a sheet that we can keep in in these if so just a couple reminders that would be okay. Yeah, that sounds good. Some instruction on what they're getting into. Okay. Yeah, we got some people that have hung out the whole time. Anybody have anything they want to need to say? Nothing. Just I got it. I get it. We're a month. Got it. All right. We're a fun group. Yeah. [laughter] You're not coming with chickens, are you? No, that was I think I was at that one.

Yeah. [laughter] All right. Well, thanks for watching and doing your homework. Appreciate it. Thank you. All right. Um, anybody else? Motion. U You're looking for a motion. That one's related to me. Oh. which she's just weird. Just a social studies teacher and is now [laughter]

she is she's a social studies teacher at Eastern Hancock. So she's I've been asking her to uh engage in local government. So and so here she is. You like to be an alternate? Welcome. [laughter] Would you like to be an alternate? So when you when my kids she lives in Greenfield. Oh. When my kids came, uh, the commissioner snuck out and got candy and chocolate and fed came in and I I'm sorry. I should have gotten you some [laughter] some chocolate. They're too busy tonight. No candy for you. No candy tomorrow. I went to work tomorrow morning. So Oh, it's very Oh, yes. [gasps] All right.

Motion to adjurnn. Second. All those in favor signify by say I or opposing sign. 905 is not bad. No, that's not too bad. What for the first one? The first one drug us out a little bit, but you know, we're good. I think so. Yeah. I was like, "Okay, and then I have my Yeah, I got that. Okay. Okay. Yes.