Historic Preservation Commission - Regular Meeting

Village of Greenport Historic Preservation Commission. Our meeting is August 27th, 2026, 430 PM. Station 1 Firehouse, 3rd and South Streets, Greenport, New York. So we have really one item on the agenda, and that's 151 Central. So it has come to our attention that at the close of our commission meeting two weeks ago, that we did not make a formal motion on the application. So we're going to start with that and then talk it through and see where we can go. So I have the motion. I am making a motion that we approve, echoing. Whereas in 2024, C&I Builders LLC applicant, as owner of the property located at 151 Central Avenue, Greenport, New York, and designated on the Suffolk County tax map as District 1001, Section 5, Block 2, Block 4, the premises, applied for a certificate of appropriateness to construct various exterior repairs and rehabilitation of certain elements. And whereas the applicant submitted application documents on December 3rd, 2024, the application, showing the materials and designs for the proposed exterior renovations, including the replacement windows, which are identified in the application as Anderson E-Series or similar, to complement the existing windows with a similar clear width and frame thickness. And whereas as depicted in the application, the windows were double hung, the window details, and as whereas at a meeting on December 19th, 2024, the commission approved the application, including the proposed window details and granted a certificate of appropriateness for the proposed renovation and rehabilitation. And whereas applicant performed construction work, including installation of windows, whereas the windows installed did not match the window details approved by the Commission and whereas applicant now is applied for an amendment of the previous approval to permit the windows to be casement windows on the addition whereas the applicant installed double hung windows on the front face north side without application now therefore the board makes the following findings and determination one The premises are in the Village of Greenport Historic District and also listed in the National Register of Historic Places 1984 inventory of contributory structures for the district. Two, the commission denies the application to amend the windows. Three, in reaching this decision, the board finds that The window modification does not retain the historic features of the dwelling and constitutes a significant alteration because the texture, materials, and color in their relation to similar features of other properties in the neighborhood as a house of this age, circa 1880, should have two over two windows as was present in 1977 and 1984. B. The proposed alteration to permit the modified windows is not compatible with the dwelling's historic character or the surrounding district because of the importance of historic architectural or other features to the significance of the property as they are casement windows without the appropriately proportioned muttons. Four, notwithstanding the denial, the commission recommends that if the applicant proposes to identify proposed acceptable changes, such as two over two windows, the commission would reconsider its denial and confer with the applicant to attempt to resolve the proposed changes. Do I have a second on the motion? Second. All in favor? Motion carries, so. I would like to begin with just a reminder about the house from our historic advisor, Robert Harper.

Sure. I looked all over Greenport Village and this house appears a lot. I would even call it the Greenport Village Vernacular. I just got one here. I sent you a copy of them. There must have been about two dozen just on one street. This is what it would have looked like. I truly believe this would have been three bays wide and that the windows at some point were changed and I don't know if you can everyone could see it in this photograph but clearly these are two over two windows the only exceptions I saw to this were ones where there were modern replacement windows but two over two is absolutely from that period and you can see how Beautifully it makes the house look. So I tried to find one that was as close as possible that had the front gable and had this little side attachment here. And the one next door to it also. This guy over here is also what I would call the same type of house. So I can't say anymore. That's what was there. 99.9% sure of it.

Thank you. So there's two issues afoot here. There's the casement windows which weren't approved. And then the replacement of the windows on the front, on the north side, which were not applied for or approved. So we feel that the certificate of appropriateness is reopened in its entirety when it comes to the window discussion. I want to look back for a moment to the December 2024 meeting where we talked quite a bit about the two over two windows that they were in the 1977 Chris report. I believe Jake had a photo from 1984. They are common in the vernacular, Greenport style. The word, it would be a game changer to have two over two divided windows. The concept was that the plan at that time in 2024 was to be very mindful of expenses and there was not an intent to change the front windows. I think that led to our approval of your double homes on the west side of the house, which is really a very street facing side of the house. Then when we come back again in June of 2025, again the windows come up. Again, the discussion leads to two over two windows. Again, everyone present agrees that two over two windows are appropriate for the house. And that brings us to today. We have the casements on the addition, and I believe there's one casement window on the old structure that has been modified to include a mutton. And then we have the unapproved front facing windows. So these windows will be there for 40, 50 years here. They're significant. They're important to the house. to the neighbors, to the street, to the district. So we are here tonight to talk about that. Jake, do you want to speak your thoughts? Yeah, sure.

Thanks for giving me this opportunity to talk. My name is Jake LaChapelle. I'm the architect director. okay um so i'll keep my comments to to the issues as i understand them um and then afterwards if there are other things that we need to get into we'll do that but i'm trying to keep this tight and sort of give some structure to what we're talking about which i think you sort of just did um i want to start off with the sort of an assurance to the commissioners about how we got here and about the owner's intentions it's always been danny's goal to work with the commissioner's recommendations and i believe our initial filing and then that approved amendment indicates that so the untimely request for amendment is probably the first thing that i should address and the projects can start and stop in construction and be unpredictable and this one was more so than some others um we were paused for many months in 2024 and 2025. waiting for a building permit due to lack of staffing. And that was followed by several month phase of work in 2025. And then a hiatus for the better part of a year. And then that second phase of work was completed this summer. We replaced, I believe it's four windows during that first phase. And I believe there's a miscommunication or a misunderstanding, which I don't think we can address now. That was the intention. We assessed windows during that phase and when Danny chose to restart the project in 2025 or went to that next phase, decision was made to do other windows. So, And right now the project remains incomplete as as I'm sure you you know if you've been by there As prices schedules and thinking changed over those years the details of the project changed and we did think to file that amendment in 2024 When the when Danny chose to decided to restore the front porch And then we didn't file for an amendment for these windows So that's That's where we're at Of course we're here to find a solution as you've described. So a couple things to note on the existing house. During the first phase of work we replaced four windows and matched the existing undivided light configuration already present in the house. We finished structural renovations and as I described Danny paused the project. With the start of the second phase he made the decision to invest in new windows throughout. And at that point, we were locked into the undivided lights, in my assessment, and we can talk about how we addressed that, no matter what division pattern we might have preferred. And I think, talking with Danny about this, we're agnostic about the, But yeah, we don't particularly want one over one or six over one or any other thing. It's just that we replaced those four windows to match the other windows. And then a year later, we bought Mint Windows to match. So that's where we're at. Removal of the aluminum window inserts exposed balance weight boxes and allowed us to determine the likely original size of the upstairs windows and the replacements are sized to restore those clear areas. Yeah, I can bring these up if it's useful later. But what I'm showing here is that's the existing window. That's the replacement window.

And

I think we see here that, yeah, the clear, the existing windows were an aluminum replacement sometime in the 80s, we're guessing from the photos that we had from the 80s. They were replaced after that. They were smaller than the wood frame, so we've restored what we think is probably a good assessment, a pretty accurate assessment of what the clear area in that window was originally. But of course we don't know. In both the existing house and the addition, we're required to provide one emergency escape and rescue opening per bedroom. This size double hung window, even when expanded to fill the whole existing window opening, doesn't meet those requirements. So it's diagrammed here. We could look at it closer if we want to. You need 20 inches tall, 24 inches wide. 20 inches wide, 24 inches tall.

For the New York State egress?

Sorry, what I'm getting to is you also need 5.7 square feet and that was missed in the last hearing. That 5.7 square feet of clear area is really the defining aspect. So the size of double hung that we're using here doesn't accomplish that, it can't. And Anderson's catalog, I think I have some of their materials here.

It is really clear about that.

I know you can see that from here, but I can hand it around. The highlighted window is ours. All the other windows to the right and down on this chart are compliant for R319 for exit and escape windows. This one isn't. We'd have to make it four inches wider or three inches taller or something like that to do so. So we're left with the pretty standard solution for preservation projects where we use a, i'm not happy about it but a mullion or a muntin across the the casement window because the casement of course can get that clear area and we put it on the non-streets facing sides of the house so on the back of that that upstairs bedroom that hangs over the driveway porch and then on the side that faces the the house to the east just five feet away from that house you really don't see either of those from the street so it's a probably a pretty good solution and i'm hoping it that Given all those factors, that resolves the casement on the existing house issue, but we can talk about it more. Where was I? I won't get into trim selection unless you want to talk about it. We're really happy with the quality of work. We're really happy with the cumulative effect, which we believe restores the materials, proportions, and composition of this handsome house. And we want to find some solutions tonight. So thanks for letting me talk.

Thank you. Okay. I guess...

Well, there's a lack of, there is no trim detail on the back casement windows at all. There's no sill, there's no casement, there's no casing, there's no trim cap.

Do you want to talk about the trim as the first item that we're going to get into? Should we do trim?

Well, we should talk about it.

We should talk about it.

What the order is.

Yeah.

Because the workmanship has been excellent. I mean, the guys are doing a very nice job. But the fact that we dropped the ball on the trim in regards to the existing casings and not matching any of the others that you can retrofit is one thing. It would be a costly item on your behalf. There's also the idea that the casements, Anderson does make that casement window with a mold detail. And so if those can be swapped out, that might be a solution. I'm just throwing these things out there. It came with a traditional sill casing, head casing, drip cap, and perhaps swapped the existing casings out to the Anderson casement mold kit.

So I'd propose that we address the casing around the window separate from the mull, the muntin that we might put on these windows, because that's how I thought about it. The elevations that we submitted in 2024 and that were approved for the windows of the existing house show preserving the existing trim or repairing as necessary. And obviously that's a lot of that, how much we can repair gets determined during construction. We're able to keep a lot of it. These are elevations, again, that I'm sure you can't read, but they clearly show that trim on the existing windows. The point of thing is that they also show that we're, they also show our intention with the addition, which, and this is a side view of the house. This is the existing house. And this is the addition in this little block. So we're showing, this shows the existing shutters, which we agreed at that meeting to . And then it shows the existing trim on those windows and the architectural . And then at the windows on the addition, we're showing no trim on the sides. And then we're adding an architectural lintel because we're trying to keep the rhythm and the proportion of the existing house here. There is a drip cap provided on those. Those architectural lintels as you say, there's no case.

Yeah, I didn't I didn't at that meeting I would have never picked up on that the fact that there was no Fair enough.

You can't tell Right.

This is all this is all I did not present these at that meeting These are in the packet that the Commission has it still looks like one over one.

I

in this i'm not talking about the one over one right now i'm talking about the casing on the outside of the window and then the architectural you may know it's hard to see even here but right at the house as it is now i understand that there is a head casing and it can detail over it at the time that this came before the board i'm quite sure it was never pointed out that there was never

we that there was no we didn't talk about it because it shows it shows the shutters which crop the existing you know the window the trim is is evident there between the shutter and the window it's just as we discussed in the 2024 meeting you commented on how narrow the the casing is there it's pretty typical it's like three and a half inches but was it clear that it was metal casing Yeah, but there is no... There's not metal casing.

There's no casing. There's no casing on these at all, though.

It's just the... On the existing, there was casing. On the new ones. On the existing, there was casing, and we either preserved it or repaired it or replaced it. And on the new, there is no casing at the jams of the windows.

There's a metal rim.

That's part of the window.

It's just the window. It's the window frame, yeah.

So in your mind, that is depicted here, a metal rim. Was it clear that that was the material at the time? I was not .

follow suit throughout the whole project. And again, the way that the shutters kind of crop the view in there, you don't see that that's a wide piece underneath it.

And this is what you're describing?

Correct.

And there's a drip cap, and there's this architectural info that I'm describing, and then the window frame with no casing on the front of it. Correct. Yeah.

Metal edge.

That's right.

I think it's composite because these are 400 series windows. I'm pretty sure. But it looks shiny. It's not a 4 inch casing. It's not a 4 inch casing by any stretch of the imagination.

That's all I'm going to get at.

Yeah.

At the addition. Cut to the chase. It doesn't have a traditional seal, and it doesn't have the Reuter casing. Right. It was an attempt to bring some of that detail into the picture. That's true. But it doesn't have the wide casing.

That's my only point. That's right. And it doesn't have a traditional.

Anderson makes what they call a traditional cell, and it's a good inch and a half to two inch cell.

Which might be a good replica for what's on the existing house here.

Yes, exactly.

anything more no so i think i think we're speaking the same language now yeah yeah i might not use the right terminology uh you know when i when i said that but you understand what i was absolutely and that's why i've got the the images here just trying to make sure we're on the same page um i wanted to go back and understand better you were talking about so so the measurement of the window appears to provide the access egress required. But you then said, you mentioned I think 5 foot 7 or 5 foot 7. Could you? explain what you meant by that so in addition to the measurement of the window which does meet the requirements and it was our understanding that that would be sufficient for access egress so i'd like to understand that and i also understand that it's one window per bedroom

not all of the windows in the bedroom that's correct so you have a choice there as well but um yeah if you wouldn't mind explaining that a little further i appreciate it so the the regulation that we're trying to balance against all the other parameters here aesthetic preservation functional maintenance everything um the regulatory issue is r319 in our news code and it's um It requires, and this has been around for a while, it requires an egress, I'm sorry, an exit and rescue opening for habitable rooms and bedrooms certainly apply. So as you said, one window in each of these rooms needs to meet this requirement. There are the X and Y dimensions, the 24 and 20 inches that we spoke about. And then there's this, and those are easy to meet. I mean, what window is not that, isn't that tall and not that wide? The difficult one is that the clear opening area when you open the window and try to get out or have a fireman pull you from the burning room, it's got to be 5.7 square feet. So that's much bigger than the 20 inches by 24 inches. If you multiply 20 by 24, that's 400 and something. Divide that by 145.

I can't do the math. May I ask, John Robbins, do you have information on this?

No.

The building inspector who we brought in on this

not cite that limitation fair enough so there's this is something that I've dealt with on many projects this is not like a new a new requirement there's a there's a a carve out in for preservation for many requirements. It requires that if it's a safety issue, you show that there's a, I forget what the language is, but a compelling way that you can just meet the intent of that safety requirement. In this case, if we can't get the window open big enough, I don't see how we meet that. I'm not willing to sign off on that compromise of safety regardless. I mean, it doesn't matter on this project, any project.

but you're saying only on, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but you're saying only on the replacement windows because isn't the bedroom in the front would not meet that because it's a,

I'm saying that we might be able to come to for some things we could claim that this is preservation we don't have to meet certain restrictions in the code so maybe we could use that for these windows on the existing house at the second floor in the bedrooms except that we can't meet the safety requirement so I just if any if the building inspector suggested that I would say well it's not it's not feasible so that is not an official opinion i don't want to present it as that it's a discussion with the building inspector on looking at the second floor as architect a record i wouldn't sign off on a smaller window let's let's we'll leave it there yeah but so i just wanted to hit this point again there's two bedrooms in the existing house on the second floor that we had to put these windows in we put one on the back side that can't be seen from anywhere but the backyard and then the that's on the west side and then on the east side we put the window on the east side as opposed to choosing to put it on the front facade of the house okay so there is a window okay yeah so so for all three bedrooms i think it is there are two bedrooms in the existing second floor and there's one bedroom in the addition of the second floor now for all three

you have met that requirement assuming that that is in fact what our building expense yes yes and but you chose on the back bedroom to make all the way that's exactly right that's exactly right and i think i don't see the egress windows on the original house as

there being a lot of leeway there. And so I sort of set that aside and say, I think this is just the best we can do. And it often is in these cases. The addition, I understand that you have the issues with the with the use of casements throughout that that addition and we did show some casements on the elevations in the in the drawing submitted but those second floor windows in the in the submitted and approved documents show at least the bar across if not a double on it's just that has changed so yes I believe that

Everyone's intent here is to make the best house. I think that because of the time that this took place, over the length and exceptional length of time, errors or changes were allowed to creep in. And basically these four replaced windows then dictated the windows of the house. And the windows as they stand now are not compatible with the historic home. The front windows were not approved or ever discussed. If they were brought in, it would have saved furtherance of that error. If the other windows had been come in, came in and discussed, additional windows being put in so we're sitting here now with inappropriate windows on the street facing particularly in my opinion side although you know it is the whole house but the west side windows and the north side windows from this for this house are particularly evident i believe we need to change out the casing the casings on these windows to provide that historic two over two window. It was always the intent of the HPC. It was stated at both meetings. It was not required. It was discussed. And it really, now that the application is reopened, I don't see how it can be let go. I think the casings, need to be replaced on the front windows, the front two, and the west side windows to be two over twos. That would be my remedy that I can see. As far as the casement windows, they are a surprise. They are on the addition. It would be very helpful to have them with casings that match the historic home. really offset the addition by both color, the size of the window, the clear glass of the window. It's almost an intentional change that's pretty radical in the look of the addition, which I don't think was the presented intent of the addition.

so um the color was i think all those details were aside from the change from double hung apparently to casement the color the color was presented as you say the lack of trim is hard to find in the in the uh amongst all the information you got but is there um and what else And the difference from the paint on the existing house, that's all in the packet. The approved material includes the white paint for the existing house, let's call it slightly darker white paint for the trim, and then the tannish color for the addition.

But paint is, the color is not permanent, I think.

Is the way that the state guides us in its.

So that is, while it may be jarring to look at, it's not permanent. It's the permanent features are more permanent. Understood.

I just didn't want to mischaracterize the facts.

Let's hear from Lisa.

yeah i i'm still confused about this five point set like there's only casement when windows that can go on a second floor or in the that will fit in that opening that we have the double hung windows that fit don't meet the egress requirement is what you're saying the only so only for bedrooms right

The double-hung window that fits in this opening, the biggest double-hung window that fits in this existing opening in the existing house doesn't meet the exit and rescue requirements.

If you look at the 5.7 square feet as a guide, which was not what our building inspector had discussed with us.

Which means most historic homes then don't have appropriate egress in the village. Correct, yup. Okay, and then my other, like I understand, Jan, what you're suggesting is all the windows, the front and the- West side. West side be- Casings.

Become too over- So you don't have to replace the whole window, but replace the casings, two over twos.

Okay, and they were approved.

Four of the windows were approved and that drove, Lisa was not on the board, and drove the progressive building of the house to carry it further.

Right, I understand. And what we'd like to do now, given a time machine, is change out for true divided lights for two over two and then everybody is ecstatic about this project. The issue that we run into with retrofitting these windows is there's a relatively inexpensive way to do simulated surface applied muntins. Dennis, you expressed your displeasure with that solution, I know. I agree. And yet I've priced out getting a new insulated glass unit, the glass piece itself with muntins, RBS doesn't do that. You gotta buy the entire sash. So that's $840 per window. plus tax, plus installation, it adds up very quickly. I think it's probably much less for the applied solution, and I don't have good pricing on that.

I think you're right, but I think, I don't see how, I think the error was made and there's no way to take this historic home to where it belongs without the replacement of the casings.

Understood. So before I go to the suggestion on that, At the hearing where we received our initial approval, I discussed our need to assess these windows and then the replacement of some windows. and then we received approval and then in the elevations that are shown we show one over one and I discussed how we don't want to mix and match and so probably because we weren't at that time doing full replacement, we wouldn't be replacing with two R2s or any other divided light. The graphic that we have in the submitted materials, aside from the elevations, like on top of the elevations, shows a double hung window with undivided lights because that was the intention. I believe there was miscommunication for which It's an imperfect process that we have here. So I'm just saying that there's no pointing fingers here. There's no pointing fingers here. That's my feeling of what happened. I'd propose, and I don't have... Danny's full buy-in on this, but I would say that all the windows on the west side of the house, they're visible from the driveway, they're visible from the street at a certain angle. I would say the front facade would be less of a burden to the homeowner in this case. Yeah. Do you understand what I'm proposing there? I'm not quite clear, Jake. I'm saying we're going to have to, if we can't do applied muntins, We can do applied muttons for all those windows, I think. Kick me if I'm out of line here, Danny. On the windows of the front facade and the windows on the west facade. I think that's economically doable. It's economical. Applied muttons? Applied muttons, just because they are not a lot of money per window.

Even the true divided light windows that we do approve are not true divided light. They are simply a spacer bar between two pieces of glass with an applied line on each side.

But it still looks different.

It does. It does. Because of the shadow line of the

And you do understand that those would not be eligible for historic tax credits?

The Anderson 400 series is not. eligible for tax credits.

I believe the 400 is.

They do not like them. I have asked a specific opinion on them and they have said they do not.

And yet the HBC urges, in my past experience, that's been our favorite.

We don't urge, we accept. Because of economics, we try to be mindful of You know, the homeowner and investing in the property and bringing property forward. That's important to us.

So HP, I mean...

But CHPO, if you're doing an application for tax credits... Tax credits is out the window, so to speak, for these 400s. It wouldn't be the siding, the roofing.

Yeah. So the tax credit is not going to drive us on this in any case.

It's unfortunate because it reduces the expense by 20%. Expense is driving this. At this point. It is. It's an unfortunate sequence of time and then decisions that, but the house and the neighbors and the block, You know, I mean, there's where the price lies.

I agree with that framing, yeah. I provided the Anderson diagram of their simulated divided lights, the kind of surface application versus this spacer version, just so that's clear what we're talking about.

This is sash replacement, Jake?

The top one would require a sash replacement.

Which is the 840 plus tax.

Plus labor. Yeah.

So you're talking $1,000 a window.

$1,600, let's say.

I think insulation is twice, well, you know.

Yeah, okay. Maybe we get it cheaper. But... Then if we're doing applied, which is, is that the fifth or sixth one down? Nobody likes it, but it's more economical.

Are there other remedies that? Well, if I understand what you were compromising was to replace the front windows

leave the side windows as is is is that what you one of your suggestions that's what that's what i'm proposing and what were we doing with the ones on the back side nothing or something uh on the addition i'm i'm not throwing anything out there on that right now i think we're just leaving that aside and try to try to address the historic house as possible and when you say the front

You're talking the second floor? What are you doing with the picture window and the sides and the third story?

That's a tough one. That window was obviously installed. It's not original to the house.

So you're talking the two windows in the front?

I'm talking the two windows on the front and then... One window on the... one window on this extension there so the three facing the street there's a second floor bedroom that hangs out over the porch and into the driveway the the street face of that i see that as the street face of that even though it's set back and i'm saying let's replace that window as well

I'm pulling up my picture.

I am open to that front window in the front. I need to replace that one, because it is a pretty unique window.

The three-unit window you're referring to?

Well, we addressed that at one meeting. talked about changing the head casing and making it like the rest. And you actually accomplished that. We did that, yeah. You did that. So I thought that was a pretty good effort in that regard. Because when people say to replace trim, at that point, the asbestos was not coming out of the house. That's true. To magically say that when you extend that trim, nobody realizes that you've got a hole that's very fragile. asbestos off, then add drip caps and flushing in order to achieve that. So sometimes I feel like, you know, I seem to be more lenient, but I also think, because I'm in the business, that I understand the cost of everything that gets brought up. The rest of the asbestos came off, exposed the shingles up top and the gables, and that kind of steered the project again, which I think was in a good way. My biggest concern is the aesthetics of the back in regards to the size of the casing and the sills. And that's, I'm just looking at solutions. That's as far as I can go with that. I don't have any other magic solution.

If we did the two fronts and we come around the two windows on that jump out, the front facing and the west facing. So with those two, one, two.

But there'd be two west facing.

There's three, really.

Well, yeah, behind the, what would be the proper terminology for the, yeah. So you're saying right now you started with, yeah.

One, two, three. I'm saying these are the.

Those are the front facing.

That's four, right.

And Janice brought up that one that you're pointing to right now, which is west facing. And I'm saying the next one over is also west-facing, but not .

That was what I assumed the starting point was, was all five of those plus the sixth around the corner. So now we're just taking one window out that nobody even sees from the street.

But that west-facing that's on the jut out, they do see from the street, correct?

The Gable End window?

The Gable End window.

it is not in the way that the street it is not in the way that the street windows are visible it's it's less visible that the five that we're looking at yeah yeah and so yeah it's visible absolutely Yeah, this photo is taken from the extreme. This photo is as far around the corner as possible so that it looks like I'm being honest about the photo taking.

I'm showing you every window.

If you're standing in front of this house, you would never see that window.

Yeah.

But in any case, we're talking about...

It depends on whether you're an inch over or... Yeah.

So I think what we're talking about here is six windows at the second floor or five or four or three. Where do we end up? I mean, I think that's the conversation we're having.

I think there's compromise in that.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'd say at the end, it doesn't show up here.

The window here that was replaced, that's the fixed window and then the two to the sides, which weren't original. Thinking about it, those two side windows are very narrow, and to divide it up is not going to, the proportion won't be similar to the rest of the house. I think it wouldn't be a good idea. It wouldn't add to the picture. I appreciate what you said on that, Dennis, but I had that other thought.

The effort was made to increase the head casing and make it look like the rest of the windows, so I think... That alone should speak for itself.

I think the others are more important, but appreciate the willingness to look at it. And I do also want to point out that, and I'm pretty sure I'm right on this, but again, I wasn't part of the commission at the time they originally saw this application. But what we haven't discussed here, and we're not planning to discuss other than my mentioning this is that you did go forward with work on the porch that I think was not necessarily consistent with either historic or, you know, the square columns versus round or the application. So, you know, that's part of the compromise, I think. It's not ideal and was not part of the original application. So I just point that out. And I'm still not really clear why you didn't come back when you decided to resume the work, why you didn't come back to the commission to have this discussion.

So on the, it doesn't sound like the porch is under consideration today, but except as sort of a mitigating circumstance or something like that?

I would argue it's perhaps a compromise.

So the drawings that were that were submitted we did not talk about the posts at that porch in our in our in either of our meetings we talked explicitly about the posts on the front porch at our second meeting where we talked about this project we didn't get into the porch and we certainly didn't talk about turned posts the drawings are very clear of the as to what our intention was there i don't think there's any lack of clarity in the submitted drawings yeah i thought it was going to be a screen

I never saw any turn post and or goop. There was no discussion.

But that's an important point which was not clear to us that you do and that it is intended to be a screening portion.

And in terms of

The square posts, that was clear in the drawings, but they'll be covered up by these screen frames, for lack of a better word.

It makes a little more sense now that I, yeah.

Can we go back to the casement windows, the addition? Would you consider trimming them in a similar way to the balance of the house?

So I understand that all the pieces of the house work together, including the addition, and we want to address this all as a house that holds together. The addition, we're performing this work in large part under the Secretary of Interior Standards, which has always been my guiding light for preservation. And I know that there may be disagreements on interpretation there. There may be local particulars. I'm fairly familiar with this commission's read on this. My My feeling on the addition is basically and always has been in line with the Secretaries of Interior Standards, which is that new work will be differentiated. And that guides all the decisions that we're making here as we're doing the architectural design for the addition. The standards say specifically that The new work will be differentiated from the old and will be compatible with historic materials, features, size, scale and proportion and massing to protect the integrity of the property and its environment. I'm trying not to cherry pick there, but to me, That does not say that you match the casing. That says you get the massing right. You use the same size. You don't put a tower next to a long house. Maybe it goes down to the level of you respect the size of, I think it does actually say to me that you respect the size of those windows and probably the rhythm of windows on the side of a house. And so that's the paradigm that we designed under. And I think we communicated it in the documents clearly enough that aside from casement to double hung in the addition, I think we communicated that clearly.

And we're all familiar with those standards and the language that you read, and I think the room for interpretation is the compatibility component of it.

Sure, absolutely. In-kind was the worst.

In-kind.

Right, that would be a different approach, I think.

If we accept the casements, Jake, if we let the casements stand, Could you see the simple trimming? I mean, here you go, compatibility. We have a slightly different color, which is not a tangible feature. We have the windows, which are definitely a tangible feature. There is a distinction that has been made. The volume amassing is good. We've been over that. But I think the casements would appease How firm are you on this? The casements on the west side at the minimum, would you consider that as an architect?

The casements on the, say that again.

The trim on the casements on the west side.

Trim on the casements on the west side.

On the addition.

Danny will have to decide on that, and probably I'll have to give him dollar number. Our builder will have to give him dollar number.

Yeah, it's- We do want you to come back, I don't- Yeah. So you can consider this schedule of windows, certainly, a rendering so that we are very clear. We'll amend the COA to specifically reflect exactly what is agreed so I think we're pretty clear on what we're looking for. I do have, it's just one, I know it's a consideration that has been asked of me, which is where you are placing the HVAC equipment. Yeah. At the end of the day, have you decided on that?

We talked about that. Yep.

So the final plan is also- I think we're going to have to have you stand and identify yourself, Danny, sorry.

hi danny sanchez owner of 151 central um so we were talking about that this week like the original plans also have a shed like in the the plans yeah i ideally would like to put it like right next to the shed so in the back of the property yeah and that right that grill in the front of the house is a is an egress requirement correct you have a full basement that's an egress right

And I assume you thought of and all that, okay. Before I'm going to just wrap this up, is there anyone in the audience that would like to? Yes. You're not me?

sorry on the you mentioned the window schedule do you need i guess we'll need to update it for for any changes we're proposing to to to uh for this for this compromise for this uh solution um were there any other issues on the was there other information you needed in the window schedule or is it just updating windows yeah we want to know exactly which windows

and what they look like.

That's the reason I'm asking. The Windows schedule has the model number, the dimensions, the hardware. It's fairly standard, but it's a certain level of detail. Maybe you needed more.

Yeah, no.

OK.

It is more just to avoid this conversation ever happening again.

I will see if I can think of other information to include to that effect.

And fresh elevations.

And fresh elevations, yes. For whatever we're proposing. Yeah, that's understood.

Okay, thank you. Thanks very much. Thank you. Do we have any comment before we bring this to a close?

I couldn't say something if you'd like I'm not sure if I'm looking at the same set of drawings but the drawings here all of the window casings look identical there are turn columns on the front porch with your window schedule there's no No notation of which window goes with which window. in the house itself i don't know if this is an earlier iteration if you want to take a look at it but there are are turn columns here and none of these windows really looked um what am i looking at well there are turn columns the door front door has two term columns on the on this the front door which is the june application and they and on the house also i don't know what you pointed towards my glasses but just consistency in the window casings would make a huge difference i know with the the casement windows you already have the siding on which is a shame because it should have but the the casings the casing should be thick enough so that they protrude from the siding you could I have no idea about what's available for these, but you could put a meeting rail in those casement windows and a fake meeting rail. Isn't that correct?

It would be surface applied, well, two options. Replace the entire sash, essentially, which... No, I'm talking about the two casement windows.

If you have a meeting rail in those... That would be a surface applied meeting rail. Which would make it look like a double hung window. Could that be made to look more like what was there previously? In other words... And your addition is differentiated. I think enough. The roof... They don't match. The roof over the, I guess it's a porch, it's inset. So I'm talking this area here. So you have enough differentiation here. And I don't think that the, Secretary of Interior's standards are saying put a glass box on the back. I don't know if you're familiar with the Morgan Library where they connected it to J.P. Morgan's house. It is a glass box that looks like books. It doesn't have to be that differentiated, but the person who knows what they're looking at should be able to say, oh, that's an addition on the house. You do want some compatibility between the addition and the main part of the house and I think I've walked by this house at least a half a dozen times now. Everything except the back is visible from the street, especially the driveway side because there's more space on that side. So personally, I think if you put in meeting rails on those, if you put the same kind of trim on them, as Dennis said, with a head casing and a sill so that there's that kind of compatibility. I think you'd have something that would be more, I mean it's not going to be historically accurate because the front has been changed so much, but introduce some things that are the same is what I'm saying.

The, that graphic or those photos that I set on the desk in front of you, that's one of Anderson's meeting rail simulations.

This is a applied meeting rail?

That one, I believe, I'm not 100% sure, has a divider. But it's the same exterior profile as you'd get with a...

This is a case...

It's not a true divided light, to answer your question. We're not getting true divided lights in these windows without a... That would be a different window product. But this is a casement window. That's a casement window with an exterior applied horizontal mutton to replicate a meeting rail. And then I believe there's a spacer inside between the two panes of the IGU.

But this is trimmed out appropriately.

That's our existing house. That's from this project.

This is on the front.

That's on the back side of the house. That's on the back side of the extension that hangs over the driveway. That's illustrating what we can do with these muntins. Personally, I think it looks... Very thin. It doesn't look like a double hung window. Put it like that. The meeting rail you think? Yeah.

If you guys want to look at what I'm looking at.

Yeah, please pass that around.

It's the one window you have up already. They do make a casement. You can replace the casement. You can take the glass out and put... They do have that.

That's... Yeah, I was saying we could replace that whole piece or we could do a surface applied. Those are the two options. Again, it's a matter of... There is a cost issue. Yeah.

But you have done the one casement window with an ounce that is that- On the existing house, because there we're- Yeah.

I think obligated to get a similar look to the double hung windows, and that's good practice. It's what I've used on many other projects.

So give us new elevations for what you're proposing, and we'll take it fair on two weeks from now.

Thank you.

Speak. Anyone from the audience? Yeah, we're going to have to a little bit hurry just for that.

Lorraine Kraling, 157 Central.

I always do that.

So I just want to say, yeah, that I do know, I mean, listening to Jake and having studied all these things, I do think that there was miscommunication and a lot of goodwill was misinterpreted. I do, however, think that when the project first came to the board, it was just going to be shingle front and replacement shingles where shingles got cracked and then faux clobbered in the back with the hardy board. And so that was taupe and one was ivory or alabaster. And I do think that now it's very, very jarring. And I understand the modernist touch and the effort to distinguish which Secretary of Interior's guidelines suggest, but I do think In such a small space, it's really like having somebody park something in our backyard because it's like 10 feet from our, 15 feet from our property line. So I could find a lot of goodwill and forgiveness if they would just paint one wall alabaster because I had to look at it every morning from my kitchen. And I just see that. I don't see the whole house. And it's ugly. Okay, that's all. Thank you.

And I can understand.

um i can understand that comment but i i do want us to come back to like i want to restore the screened in porch with the awning and once that awning gets placed it should tie the front and the back together based off the color scheme that's being chosen for for that on it so it's not meant it looks disjointed right now but i think when it's complete it will actually make sense we're just kind of still in the midst of the project so

Thank you for that. I think it will be a nice detail. And that's where your eye will be drawn to. And having those double horns right on top of it. Are we good? John, do you have any thoughts? Thank you everyone, I appreciate your time on this special meeting. I am making a motion to adjourn. Do I have a second?

Second.

All in favor? Aye.