Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

71. Hold on. Depends on if you believe Steve Jobs or Bill Gates. I don't believe either. Fair point.

Okay.

Welcome. I'd like to call to order the Grantsville City Planning Commission. Um, we are holding a regular meeting today. It is 7:02 and it is Tuesday, February 17th, 2026. Meetings being held at 429 East Main Street in Grantsville, Utah 84029. We have uh bing commission members present except for Cameron Molton. We have our new member Gary Merrell, uh, Commissioner John Montgomery, whose first meeting was last week, and our vice chair, Jason Hill, who made it through the traffic today. And I would ask that everybody rise for the pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Thank you. The planning commission is using a new meeting format. Now, we're going to uh try out a format that's intended to help address questions and provide additional information uh on each item as they are receiving public comment and uh presentation and a submission for consideration or discussion. So um for each item we will begin with the staff presentation followed by a public hearing and comment and then we will move into the planning

and zoning commission's uh discussion and consideration.

That's actually more common than I what I've seen done that way. So last week I was a little surprised or handled the other way but this is great. This is a good way to handle it. I've only been here a year and I haven't been to many meetings where they use this format, but our former planning and zoning commission chair says it's working great for the city council, Derek Dalton, who's here representing city council today. So, I'm glad that you have some experience. You'll have to help me. So, a few things to advise or remember. Uh during public comment, commission cannot answer questions that are brought up. The commission may ask questions of the applicant on the subject during the discussion and consideration portion and public comments are limited to three minutes per speaker.

Hi, would you mind signing in? Oh, sorry. Maybe you don't have to. I know you. Okay. Okay. So, we'll move on to item number one. Um, we're going to hear a presentation of the consideration of an appeal by Courtney Ross of the zoning administrator's denial to request to keep one large animal at 565 South McKay Circle located in the R-1-21 zoning district based on the property's failure to meet the required open space standard. Then we'll have a public hearing and discussion and consideration of the subject. Bill, how are you? Fantastic. How's everybody doing?

Getting ready for snowageddon tomorrow. Supposed to be really nasty. So, I hope everyone's uh locked in. Got your shovels ready and some salt. Maybe hopefully it's good on sale. Um people uh people are saying we need the water and I I agree, but I prefer rain down here and snow up there. But uh you know, Desert Peak was already getting it tonight. Is that right?

We sure complain about it, but there's not a whole lot we can do about it anyway. So, might as well just enjoy it. So, uh this item is uh being brought on behalf of some property owners that live there on the K Circle. Um their concern is that uh they would like to have a horse on the property and um associated structures to help take care of the horse on the property. Um unfortunately, it runs across our um zoning ordinance in a couple of different instances. First off, they don't have sufficient space based on the u requirements for open space to house a large animal and um further they have located some of the accessory structures within the required setbacks for this zone. So, um that's why the the letter of violation was sent and the determin determination was made by the uh zoning and uh the zoning official Shelby that uh this was u uh and it was an illegal use and that this but that this decision could be appealed to the planning commission for further review and um final decision on this matter as our code allows for. So, um, that's what has been determined and that's what's in front of you tonight. Um, if you have any questions about any of the, uh, parameters that are noted in the staff report, let me know. Um, and, uh, otherwise um, um, we're, uh, just waiting for a decision from you guys.

So, I have a quick question. So, where's the board of adjustments come in here? are we recommending to them or is this something they would typically address or it a variance is a different thing. This is not necessarily a variance. It's um conditional use. It's a conditional use permit. So, but we distinguish. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. It's one of these uh interesting quirks of working in Grantsville that I'm personally still getting accustomed to. Um but uh yeah uh our code does allow for the planning commission to make um a deviation to the strict requirements of the code for certain instances and in a conditional use permit. If if additional conditions can be placed to help mitigate potential impacts, then perhaps it's worth having a look at. Okay. All right. I think we have um quite a bit of information here provided by the staff and appreciate your description of the issue at hand. Bill, I I'm not sure if um we have enough information, but we invite you to come back up after the public comment when we're discussing it.

Absolutely. And I think that the applicants are here as well. So, if you have questions for them, now would be a good time to ask them. If you have questions of the applicants themselves, uh it would be appropriate to ask them before you open the public hearing and then uh with a okay if they have if you have additional comments or concerns after any public comment or questions if any. Okay. Okay. So did I understand that we want to start with discussion or do we just um that would be a public hearing. Okay. Unless you have questions for the audience.

I don't know if I have questions directly but um

I mean I have we've been provided the uh public comment on the subject and also the information and documentation that they've provided and um I think we'll move to public comment and then and then we'll address issues that might come up from that. So, if anybody is here and would like to speak on the uh the item at hand, uh item number one on the agenda, the appeal of the conditional use permit denial at 565 South McKay Circle, um that was issued based off of the city's current zoning and regula regulatory um rules. U we welcome you to the podium if you just want to come up and state your name. No, we'll ask you to come up after the public comment period. Yeah.

Okay. Do we have anybody online, Nicole? No. Nobody online. You're online. Please raise your hand if you'd like to speak on this this item. Okay. Well, we will close that public hearing then and then if the applicants want to come up to the podium. Um, I guess I did have a question. I I can see that Shelby uh and Nicole in Bill's office have provided you the the city ordinance and regulations that has uh resulted in the in the permit denial. And do you understand those? Uh, yes.

Okay. All right. Um, John, do you want to start? I guess uh one question is some cities will uh will cite these violations. They certainly have the right to do it anytime there's a violation but some just based upon complaints from neighbors and so there's no complaint just kind of let it go until there's a complaint. So have there been complaints from any of your neighbors? From what we were told, there was no complaint. And you can see in the packet that all of our surrounding neighbors signed um forms saying that they were fine with the horse, that they were okay. The two that are closest to the house were okay with the horse being there. Um but as far as we understood, you guys hired a new part-time person that was driving by and saw it. That's what we were told.

So, were you aware when you bought the home? You you should have been. I mean, that's not an excuse to ignorance. I mean, it's there and it's clearly there. Yeah. So, so you did it, but you just weren't aware or We come from Washington State. We just moved here. So, like you guys or anybody else in the world that doesn't, you know, we're first-time home buyers.

We um relied on an expert, which was our real to find us a house with the conditions that we were requesting. We were requesting to have, you know, a horse somewhere to park the horse trailer, that sort of stuff. They showed us houses. This one listed as horse property online. They told us it was horse property. Um our a realer called the listing agent. She verified that it was horse property. We relied on them. We come from somewhere that we would never have a horse in the backyard of a city in town. But Utah is different. We lived in Lehi for a short period of time when we moved here and we had a horse in the backyard. We didn't, you know, we didn't know that relying on the expert was not the right thing to do as a first-time home buyer.

What about building the structure in the setback? So, we So, I did a lot of research before I built either of those. Okay.

Um, again, we're first-time home buyers. I didn't even think to call anybody. I looked online. I looked at all the building codes, all the everything I could find and I couldn't find anything about setbacks or public use utility easements. Um, until the building inspector came by and said, at first one day he came by and said we were fine. He looked at the shed and the shelter. He said we were fine. And then the next day he came back and said, "Actually, the planning commission asked me to come down here." Um, but I I mean, I probably did 10 hours of cumulative research on my computer about where I could build it. The only thing I could find was I needed to be a certain distance from the property line, which was 1 foot and four feet from my house, and that's all I could find. I did a lot of research on that. Now, both of these structures are movable, so we can move them into the correct area. They are the one is on skids, so it can be moved. Um, we did ask the neighbor like, "Hey, is this going to be obstructing in any way towards you guys?" And they're like, "No, go for it. Build it. That's fine." You know, they weren't like, "Hey, you can't build here either." Like, I don't know how many people know, which they're not responsible to tell us that, right? But we were trying to

How far does it go into the setback? Uh the one it's about 15 about 15 feet into the encroaches into the this is the front shed. The front shelter the shelter is 8 ft from the property line which means it's 2 feet into the easement and the other one is how far is it approach into the setback? 15 feet. From my understanding, it's looking through the packet, it's a 30 foot setback and it's about 15 feet from the back of the sidewalk.

The other thing, you know, with the horse is, uh, we pick up poop every Sunday or Monday because garbage day is Tuesday. So, we pick it all up. It's all cleaned up every week. um we uh you know we pay for an extra garbage can just so we can do that like we we're trying you know we're trying and and that started before we got the letter we moved in in Los Angeles in November

and in if I can in fact I would say not only do the neighbors not mind they love having the horse there love it they love seeing it they love sort of the I guess vibe for lack of a better term. Um they come up to the fence, pet it all the time, they talk to her, you know, they they all love it. Yeah. And and also, I mean, when we were looking at houses, this housing development has multiple horses in it. So, we thought, okay, we this is

listed as a horse property. There's other people with horses. We're good to go. They just have a little more acreage, apparently. I would argue that there's there's a few with considerably less. Okay. And more horses, but I'm not here to point fingers or call anybody out. Like this is about us, not them. So, and what subdivision is this located in? I believe it's called Wells Crossing. Okay. It's the very last road out of town to the south off of uh Mormon Trail. All right. Is that all your questions? Questions, I think. Okay. Gary, do you want do you have some questions?

No. My first question was just looking at the shed looks like it's on skid. So, I mean, that's easily movable. So, that takes care of that problem if you're willing to do that. Yeah. Um I'm still a little concerned though with the horse with the property. Um You said you moved into November. It's not summer yet. The flies aren't out yet. The neighbors are probably happy until that would be my big concern right now. I mean, not only that, I mean, just the the the code of 10,000 square feet and we're I mean, we're well underneath that. Um,

well, our field is over 10,000 square feet. However, we do not fall in for all the setbacks from that, right? surrounding houses. Yeah, the area she's being currently kept right now is over 10,000 square feet, but that area is less than 100 ft from the from each. But again, we have, you know, they have signed letters and everything like that. So, what is the total footage that she's kept in that that your mayor's kept? How big? It's like 10,800. I think it's on the screen. Can you So, I'm I'm confused. And so I don't know what that's doing that other acreage. You own all that acorage. But it's a separate lot. That's why it can't be

backyard. No, it's too close to the other houses. Oh, it's got to be on the corner lot. That's right. But the two that it's the closest to also signed additional paperwork that said they were fine with it.

Yeah. They actually signed a different letter than the other neighbors that told them that they were that those two people were closer than 100 ft to make sure that they were aware like this is the condition we don't meet is that you know we have the space technically but we don't we're too close to you guys and they they still didn't mind. The packet says that the property contains 6562 square feet of qualifying open space, which is just over half less what they need. Half just that's more than Yes. Thank you. It's about twothirds.

Yeah. My only concern with putting you know if you know it's like we did the 10 thou over 10,000 if we did the 6,000 we'd be here too right but then that 6,000 that is usable you couldn't have a shelter there and I think that's important to note is that we used the 10,000 that we had which was obviously without you know not in code but we also have a shelter for her. So, sorry Gary, I'll wait until you're done asking. So, you say you have 10,000, but I'm just looking on this. It says you have 6,500

usable square feet. Not so I you're four 3500 square f feet shy of the 10,000 needed for the horse to be within code. So, the the 6,000 that's here is the part of our property that's more than 100 ft away from the neighbors that's usable. Yeah. the So that's the only part of the property that meets the code. But okay, currently she's in a space that's more than 10,000, but she's too close. She's within the shows. There's another picture in here that shows next one where she's being kept right now. It's got the yellow rectangle around the

Yeah, it's a big yellow It's this picture, but it's a big yellow rectangle. So, are you saying that in addition to where the big yellow rectangle is on the next slide that the yellow outline here that's not currently being used for the horse would bring you to 10,000? No, that would bring us closer probably to 14,000 I'd say roughly. Yeah. If we combine half the lot, so the lot is about it's just a little more than a half acre. It's about6 of an acre. So half of that, if you assumed half of that was for pasture area, um for the keeping of the horse, then it's going to be about 13,000 square feet ballpark. If you go back those radius circles, that's the issue.

Yeah, those homes, if that home was 40t over to the to the north, then you'd be fine. And the other one was to the west. Yeah. So that's that's what we're bumping up against as far as the code is concerned. Bill part of this code can you access sideyard as so part of this it it sorry so this property is a corner property so both the side there consider correct considered front yard and honestly when Shelby put this together she's trying to think of the maximum way that she could call this open space for the the keeping of the horse

but with the radiuses the way they are from the closest point on the structure. That's she's drawn in the radius there of 100 feet and that really just eats up the entire yard and all you're left with is the sideyard for the pasture and that's just not enough according to the code. Yeah. So, it's somewhat of a subtle subtlety that could be missed, but it is what it is. Yeah. Yeah. I guess to that point, if if I may, um,

I think that to me it would seem that the 100 foot the 100 ft from the neighboring homes would be a like you're mitigating potential impacts to those neighbors by having that 100 foot um zone. I think by in my opinion, this is just my opinion, but I think by talking to those neighbors, having them sign those letters, um that mitigates impact as well, I would hope. Anyways, and I I also must say this has been a a very good learning experience for us. Um, now we definitely know that if if we want to build something or bring an animal in or anything like that, like this will not be happening again. We'll we will do our due diligence now that we know it's more than trusting a listing agent and seeing other horses around.

Yeah, I guess that's one of my concerns, right, at a different meeting. But how do we get horse property? How do we get a property saying it's horse property when it clearly is a horse property within the city? How is I mean I mean I guess a realtor can put whatever they want on the listing. Yeah, the realtor can and and will say whatever they want to to sell property and it's up to the the buyer. It's the caveat emptor, right? It's let the buyer beware. Um, yeah. And now we know that it's um it it's frustrating for us because if they'd asked us, of course, we would have told them, "Yeah, it's going to have it's going to be problematic." And um

this is a real listing. It's on Zillow. You know, Shelby just pulled that or it was was sent this from y'all and it's clearly listed as horse property. Now, the zone does allow for horses. Yeah. However, this property doesn't fit horses just because the shape of it. Yeah. Gary, did you have any other questions for I'm sorry, you guys. I Gary, no, I'm just speaking out loud to the to the commission, right? It's like I I I hate telling people what to do with their property. Yeah, me too.

I It just drives me nuts. I I I believe in property rights, but also I'm thinking this like if if if this goes through, then that just opens the door for the next person and the next person and the next person and where does it stop? And I it that's my dilemma right here. Like I don't want to tell you, hey, this is no good. Especially you have neighbors around you like I' I've seen letters. They're happy with the horse. They're happy with the animal. like like you said the vibe but what do I what happens then when somebody comes with a.5 acre lot and then they're they're encroaching again and it's I don't know that's that's my dilemma I forgot to have you state your names when you came up the ponium I'm so sorry would you mind just for the record Roso and Ian Howard

thank you I'm sorry no it's okay um to that Gary can I can I speak to that like I I feel like that's the whole point of the conditional use permit.

Oh, that's the whole point of the conditional use permit. Like we got the letter that we were in violation. The next person would do the same, right? And they would have to state their case. Would they have the letters from their neighbors? Maybe not. Would they, you know, like we have one horse. Is there somebody that has five that's asking for the same thing? I don't think that our our case is the same as everybody else's. I mean, I don't know. I think there's other houses that have structures too close to the encroachment lines. I think there's, you know, I I don't know. I think we're here because we got the letter

and we're we've done our due diligence to make sure that we asked the neighbors. We did what we needed to do. Um I have, you know, heartburn over buying a house that we might not have a horse at, but we're doing everything that we're try, you know, that we possibly can. We're going to we you know moving the shelters isn't a big deal. That's why it's on skids. That's why it's you know movable. Um if we would have known we wouldn't have put them there to start. So yeah, we're trying to do the right thing. Um and I mean I think Gary, what you just described is definitely a potential impact.

Yeah. Another way that we are planning on mitigating that is we are putting a privacy fence up as well. That will hopefully take a lot of attention off of off of our property the way it sits and especially the horse in the backyard. We had been planning that since before we got the letter. That was one of the first things we talked about before we even bought the house. Like we need a fence. We're going to put a fence up in the near future. Mhm. Gary, did you have any other thoughts that they could help address? Well, and maybe a question for

legal and if we approve the conditional, can we put conditions on the conditional use permit? They have to be based in what the current code allows for, but um and that's one of the conditions in the staff report is that we would um impose those additional conditions. Um, yeah. So, and Nicole just brought to my attention that we did get a a comment from a a neighbor that's at 410 Williams Lane, Grantsville. And I think you guys got this email, but I'd like to just read that into the record if I may. She says, "Hi, my name is Janet Gonzalez from 410 West Williams Lane, Grantsville, Utah. I have spoke with our neighbor about the smell. I told them it was way too strong because the horse urines next to our house. If they can move the horse where the yellow section of the picture you mailed me, it might help with the smell. Thank you.

We've taken care of the smell. We've talked to her about it, taken care of it. We've raked it. We've put um some powder and some pellets down that that takes care of that. And that's just happened over this last weekend. So, thank you, Bill.

Gary, do you mind if I if we hear from Jason for a minute and then um we can come back?

I don't have so much questions many questions right now, but I'm going to kind of walk through more of my thought processes on this. I've really tried to work through how we can get you what you want, but I do think we have some things that we have to kind of stick to from this the city side. the the part you walked through where you indicated that you had gotten letters from your your neighbors indicating that they were okay with it. I think that was a smart move and I go through that. I think the process that you guys followed to say, "Hey, we wanted to do this. You were denied." The whole appeal process and everything that you guys have followed, I'm glad you've done it because it allows you to have a voice and to kind of work through this. And in a conditional use, we do get to measure out what what the circumstances are that we're that we're going against and you guys have done a good job to explain that. Mhm.

Uh I'm kind of leaning towards looking at this as an option to say yes, we'll for me personally that we can try to work with you on that. The problem that you are going to see and I think Gary mentioned it, it's different to have a horse in the in the winter time than it is in the summer. And someone say might say this is great. Having been around animals and done a lot of that before, the summertime could definitely bring a different atmosphere, especially when people are like, I'm killing so many flies I could, you know, make a meal with them. And I don't I mean they can just be different and so I'm just making sure that's that's something that might be different when you come up. I'm not here to tell your neighbors how to fill or anything like that.

The one thing I will say though um based on previous uh actions that we've taken here as a planning and zoning commission the setback for the the shed I think we really need to follow what the city ordinance has. We've we've already done that multiple times where we've denied people not being able to have sheds in front of there. So that would be something that I would not support about leaving it where it is. Um, I'm still waiting. We can talk through a little bit more of this as far as we're allowing the horse, but as far as having dwellings or anything, structures in front of that setback. That would to me I would not find acceptable. Yeah, absolutely. And I I mean, we're fine to move those. And Right. Um, as a question, you can park cars there, right? You can park. What isn't allowed? Is it just the structure?

Structure. It is the structure. Yes. cuz I I mean you can see it impedes access to the property if the fire personnel were needing to get to the house next door. Mhm. Or your house, Lord forbid, or you know, something else happened, water main break and and that structure is just not covered under your insurance being outside of the setbacks. There's multitude of things. Okay. um about that structure. The reason why the city has an and enforced setbacks. That makes sense. That is in our code and and we work really hard try to see how can we work within what this the city regulations are the city statutes. And so it's not about saying

if it says you were allowed to do it, we'll support it. If it isn't, that's where we have to look through and this conditional uses to to look things that are outside of those bounds, which is what we're here tonight. Yeah. I think um the the impact the potential impact of the flies I think there are a lot of ways to mitigate that. Um if we have to clean up the field daily the the flies typically are from the the poop. If we have to clean that up daily we'll do that. Um I think there's there's sprays and things you can use to to mitigate that.

I think we'll have no problem mitigating that. And I think that's between you and your neighbors, but if we did approve it, that would be something you have to work out with them. That's not something we'd get involved in. We're not going to go around counting flies for you. But but we do need to look at how that that measures out because again, the precedent is we don't want to look at this. But the process you followed is that the correct process within the city to be able to look at this opportunity. So those are my thoughts. Thank you, Gary. Did you have any other comments, questions?

Okay. Um, I've been on this planning commission for about a year now and we've had a few of these instances come. Um, the challenge that we have is that uh for planning and zoning, we need to abide by the regulations that are in our our um rules because uh your neighbors won't be your neighbors forever. Mhm. Um, as I drove through your neighborhood a couple times over the last week, I didn't see any other horses. The the closest horses I saw was on Hill Street. You didn't miss you missed the one next door.

So, typically the horses from what I understand and and you know, I'm with you. I don't know if you've had horses before.

Had my whole life. Yeah. Um, so sometimes people will pen them in a in an enclosure away from vinyl because they'll eat the vinyl, right? And they'll eat the stucco and and most other things, right? And so, um, the pen that you have your horse in now is is generally what I would expect to see coming from Grantsville, which is a is a equestrian friendly city. That's why people move here. I've heard it a hundred times. We had a previous council member here that uh owns horses and I've I live in a horse neighborhood. I don't own horses myself, but uh horse flies are terrible and I can't use the half back half. I have a lot that's like your neighbors that is thin and narrow and long and uh all of our lots are that way. And so, uh, I can't use the back half of my property because the horse the horse flies and the the the smell just permeates. It's so funny that that 100 degree or that 100 foot radius right there is really there for a reason because you walk towards, you know, my my neighbors that own horses, you can definitely tell that there's horses in the area. And it's the summer grows hotter and moisture um you know the flies um and horse manure as so I found can carry pathogens such as ecoli and salmonella and that could pose risks to others in your neighborhood. Um, urine can cause strong o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o odors like Bill mentioned I was going to mention that that's already been an issue and I've got neighbors whose hay and and mitigation mitigating u products fly into my yard and I'm

cleaning them up because we are windy also here and it's really really hard to keep up on that. Uh keeping keeping the area clean in order to mitigate what would become a nuisance. Um, this says, "While horse manure is less less often less harmful than dog waste, it can contain parasites or cause respiratory issues from moldy and dried material." And I get that in my yard all the time, but we pick it up every week. Yeah. Yep. I know my neighbors do, too.

I think it is. Sorry, I go ahead. I didn't cut you off there. Um, you know, we're here for a conversation and I am not one that wants to bar people from utilizing their property as they see fit. But at the same time, we do have to apply the rules and regulations that the city has set forth in that 100 m or the 100 foot radius seems to be really important. And um though I I can appreciate having a horse and I know that horse people are really dedicated to keeping their animals safe and sanitary, um it could impact your your neighbors. And so even if um you know I I I get overruled on a vote because to be honest with you, I don't see any way that we could mitigate this for future use of your land and your neighbor's land because again as I drove through the the property, um there was at least one house on every block that was for sale and that's uh 10% to me. uh a turnover of of of home ownership now is is uh it's just going to happen. And those those neighbors that might be okay with it now and not okay with it in the summer or the new neighbors that buy their house when they put their h house up for sale in the summer may not be okay. And that's why our rules and and regulations are in place is to protect the general public where things aren't going to become a nuisance. But um there are conditions if if the other council or zoning commissioners choose to you know try to work through ways that we could allow this um that could the conditions um that uh our administrator has come up with. I don't know if she's provided you a list of them. One is compliance with city codes. So the other

items that Jason and Gary talked about moving the um structures um in outside of the setbacks and open spaces or sorry outside of the setback um that is now in the open space. Let's see those must be met. The payment of all fees and and current and future payment must be made. The health and safety standards re regarding health, safety, and welfare regulations must be followed. The use of the property must remain within the parameters approved in the application for the conditional use. Any expansion of use requires prior approval. That means if you did get approved today, you'd still only have one horse.

Yeah.

Um administrative review. Now, there are people who have property that will rent it out to horse owners. I know that you know my uncle's a longtime resident of Twilla Twilla City for the last 50 60 years and he's always rented property because he's never had enough property to keep horses. But the administrative review would be also the review by this planning and zoning administrator as well as uh you know our public safety officials time and effort to investigate and come out if there are nuisance calls and and that's a lot of time. Um, and then non-compliance consequences. Um, failure to comply would res revocation of the permit and then you'd still have to get rid of a horse. And I it sounds like an uphill battle and I I know that you guys are here and willing to have that conversation and do your do your um you know due diligence to keep up things. But we had one one homeowner who came and had suffered some health concerns and wasn't able to keep up on his commitment to keep the nuisance away from the neighbors. And and I hate to to you know put that on anybody's shoulders. It's a worry that, you know, with everything else going on in the world that that I'd hate to put on anybody's shoulders knowing that, you know, you've done all this work and we've had these conversations and and for some reason or another you weren't able to keep up the compliance with the conditional use and then, you know, we'd be back in the same boat. Um, so ultimately, um, I I I didn't see you said that you have a neighbor who has a horse because I've looked on Google and I've driven through. And is that neighbor immediately next to you or where is that neighbor?

That's correct. Is it south or north or I don't in my opinion that's not important. The important thing is that there are not just one. There is multiple on Williams and some offshoots of Williams before you get to hail that have horses and some of them have less space than us and more horses than us. Okay, I can see where you don't want to point those out. Um,

we want to be a good neighbor, too, right? Like I don't I don't want to cause issues for other people, but they are there. I've looked on Google Earth. Some of them are not on Google Earth. Some of them might be newer than that than those pictures, but uh we walked around on foot. We go on walks. We walked around. They're they're there. There's more than four other people, I would say. Can I throw out a proposal to Absolutely.

And I need Tyson to tell me if this is something we can or can't do. I I still stick with the setback. I think that needs to be I'm not budging on that for me. As far as going back, if we were to is there is it possible to set a conditional use that you've already talked to your neighbors

if we come back and as long as it's on you to keep your neighbors happy and if they come back and we get complaints to the city that this can be revoked where we say yes, you can have this, but if there comes back to where that they're coming back to the city and saying this is not working for us, we look back. That would allow you to engage with them and make sure you're getting that done. If that can't be mitigated, then there would be we'd have to re revoke that piece. Is that a an acceptable conditional use or do we have to go one way or the other? I'm just trying to find a way to make it work for you guys. You're saying you're keeping it clean. Yeah. And I think if your neighbors stayed happy, they could do that. I'm just trying to find a way to work for both.

That's that's the essence of what could be approved um by way of these conditions. However, I think it would be a little need to be somewhat more narrowly tailored than just keep the neighbors happy. would have to be connected to some standard that's in our code like okay um uh the a smell or or a nuisance or or some some something like that. You know there there's many reasons why neighbors become unhappy with one another and and I I wouldn't want to tie a conditional use to the happiness of of those who just just right across the fence line. But yeah, I think where where where you were getting at is is uh the the the right way to be thinking about if it's a conditional use um some sort of uh mitigation of those um clearly identifiable

what the nuisance would be. Nuisances. Yes. Okay. So I had on the same page as Jason. My thought was if that can be done is that first of all I'd say just because you didn't know you should have known. That's not a reason my decision to to compromise. Yeah. And uh and your willingness to of course get those buildings where they are not in violation of the setback. That would be a condition for me.

But I I would say that I'd be open to allowing the use so long as there were not any complaints. Just many cities do that. They'll they know that the use is not legal non-conforming or it's not conforming, but as long as there's not a complaint, then there's no force compliance. So, it would be up to you. We wouldn't be telling you what to do with your property, but if it means you keep the pro the horse within the yellow portion or

whatever it is, or you talk to your neighbors and you let them know there's a problem, you get with us, we'll resolve it so you don't have to call the city. But if there is a complaint filed by a neighbor that is I would say a reasonable um complaint which would be smell or what those kinds of things flies and we would determine if the complaint was reasonable. But if a complaint was made to the city brought before the the U plane commission then we would revoke the conditional use. So it's it's kind of it's a burden for you some uncertainty but

it you know it should be there in the first place you the horse is there the structures are there so um should have happened but if no one's bothered by it I don't want to be the one to tell you you can't do it I mean why should we if we don't have to intercede in that way as how I feel so I agree with everything that you've said about you know the concerns but if there are not neighbors complaining then fine if they are and it's a valid complaint, then you run risk of replication. But so I support something like how do you determine if it's a valid complaint or just person like would you guys go out and see like how how does that work?

They bring it before us and frankly I think we give them the benefit of the doubt if they say hey it just smells and I've worked with them and this is this is the process we try to go through and we've told them and they haven't cured it. we just say, well,

I don't think it even comes before us. I think that a complaint is is called in to our public safety personnel who would work with our planning and zoning administrator um and and they would investigate it and come to a conclusion based off of the conditions that are go along with the conditional use permit. And and so the outcome today, I don't believe that there's an appeal. I don't think that it comes back to us. I think that if it becomes a nuisance that cannot be resolved through our public safety personnel or planning and zoning administrator that it would be revoked and you'd be looking for another place for that horse.

One additional thing there if if there is a a decision to to um seek to to withdraw a conditional use permit that would come before the the planning commission for a for a hearing. They would have the Would that come back to us?

Yes. uh they they have their their due process rights that that they would need to have a hearing about that so that they could at least present whatever mitigating factors may may be at play. Um you know keeping in mind that the additional horse they're probably going to be blamed for every fly in the in the community even though there's multiple horses that are that seem to be non-conforming. Um but that you know what with with every additional horse that overlaps these uh these circles there's going to be this this uh concentrated area of of flies and and smells. So, if it came before me, it's a civil matter that you would be

guilty until proven innocent. And so, I would, if this homeowner is coming and they've got valid information, I would be very inclined to side with them and say, "Okay, I I wouldn't put some huge burden of proof or whatever on this." So, just know that. So, it'd be of course in your best interest, make your neighbors aware. You know, it sounds like you're responsible property owners. you've already done that, you satisfied uh the situation that's there and yeah, that's the way it is and great. But if it did come back to us, then that's how I would look at it. If if the complaint came out, be very sympathetic with the person who's brought the complaint unless they just seem totally unreasonable about something, right?

And I don't think you'd be able to work it out with Oh, but who knows who'll move in. So that's a risk, right? But it's better than being denied tonight, I suggest. Yeah. And I think with the flies, I mean, there's chickens, there's pigs, there's some cows in there. Like, it's not going to be one horse that's gonna, you know what I mean? And they have their own conditional use permit. No, no, I'm not saying that. Yeah. And I'm not saying they don't, but I'm just saying like the accumulated number of animals, right, will cause flies. I agree. Well, that's argument. You're going to have to make your neighbors. Yeah. Keep them happy.

Yeah. time. Um, so I just want to say that it it the conditional use permit um should still be considered taking in uh the knowledge and of the uh rules and regulations that we are, you know, committed to kind of try to uphold and make make consistent for everybody. Right? this is the individual case, but like Gary said, it sets a precedence for for others to come and um so we we really try to keep the public interest at heart that that where it applies to everybody consistently. Um and so our decisions um aren't based solely on the on you know public comment and things rather uh we need to consider the the evidence um as well. Um, I I I just would hate to see um something, you know, and and that's great that you guys were uh willing and already uh considering putting up a fence. Maybe that will help mitigate some stuff and and maybe that's an opportunity to um uh ensure that there are there are enough mitigation factors that you can enjoy your property and enjoy your horse all at the same time while not not creating a nuisance. That will take, you know, administrative time and oversight. That is really what I'm I'm I'm trying to protect is is the time that it takes for our staff to do uh investigations and also protect your current and your future neighbors. Um based off stop of what our regulations are. So do we have any other discussions or comments?

No, I think we've covered it all. Okay. I'm willing to entertain a motion. I guess we are willing to entertain a motion. I'll make a motion and I'll hope I can get this right. But I I say we approve the conditional use permit or let's see. Do I have to start with the full paint?

Yep. in consideration of the appeal um for Courtney Rosel of the zoning administrator's denial request to keep one large animal on 565 South McKay Circle located in the R121 zoning district. I propose that we accept the the condition or propose a conditional use permit that allows them to keep a horse on the property with the conditions that it does not create an an excessive nuisance which I'm going back to the state state code on what this defines it as but it's basically saying that it creates uh an odor or uh I was added pestilent any kind of pestilence issue that their neighbors would deem unacceptable and that would be something that we would have to work through based on what they work there. That leaves you the opportunity to be able to do that.

Suppose we do that, but I also propose that within this um conditional use permit that you've requested that we deny the the opportunity to keep those setbacks or that they have to comply with the setbacks that are already stated in city city ordinances. Is that a long and the rest and the rest of the condition? Sorry. I'm going to state all those. Yeah. Um, so going back to the city code that they you could just do the bold parts

that they comply with city code as far as the setbacks. Um, that you will pay uh all the fees associated with this permit application that the health and safety standards will be followed. Uh, understanding that you have animals on your property, that the scope of use will be listed, maintained as one animal or one one horse. and and that this is subject to administrative review pending um any complaints or issues that arise from your neighbors and that the non-compliance of this the consequence would be that that would be revoked or it could be revoked after the the hearing.

And just to clarify number six that it would a complaint would come back to the planning commission. It' be our discretion to, you know, our sole discretion to to revoke or not based upon the claim was filed and brought before the planning commission. Thank you. Is that clear enough out of the law? Um, I'm just not sure about number one because you said compliance with code that they meet all setback requirements. So, where should the horse be kept because they don't meet setback requirements? Should it be kept on the front yard area or just the structures I think is what you're getting the I was referring to the structures Nicole. So the structures have to meet the the city setback. Okay.

And then leave their discretion where they let the horse go to keep the neighbors happy. I would suggest sounds like one neighbor already wants you to have it in the yellow area. I don't Yeah. At the sideyard or in the I think that the email was that they kept it within the yellow area. they thought that that would work for them. So, I think we'll be able to work it out with them, okay, with where she's at just based on what we've already done to mitigate that smell. So the the the yellow area is the only part that's outside of the 100 foot

um radius which um so as far as our conditional why there's a a C there instead of a a a P or right says that these are the conditions that if if these conditions are met then there can be a conditional use. Um, so if if these prescribed rules that are in the code, meaning if they abide by the 100 foot radius rule, um, then and there's a way to do that on their property, then they can they have the the ability to achieve a conditional use on their property. They have a limited area that complies with that. Um,

so we want to has to be compliant to that area. Perhaps a, you know, maybe a suggestion would be that there be a gate that could access those other areas that be temporarily allowed to go in those areas, but that uh for the large part where it's penned and kept be outside of that 100 foot radius. I think that's be a smart thing to do. Is that practical that you have into that yellow area and primarily the horse would be there? Not. I mean, no, because we can't put a structure there. So, she cannot get out of the weather or out of um Yeah. I And wouldn't that obstruct the corner if she was there?

The view of the corner. The view of the corner. Well, the structure. Well, the back would have to be You'd have to have the building behind her. That's it. Just is really complicated. I didn't want to get in. My intent was not to what we're already giving you a very We don't have to do that. I would rather avoid it than just Yeah. Let them work it out. Work it out. But that would be wise would suggest, you know, as part of your defense you came back was, hey, we've kept the horse primarily in that 100 foot area. The horse structure could be moved closer to your house towards the back of the house and not infringe on the front yard setbacks that are applied to the side of the house.

Can you pull up the setbacks? Yeah, the hard the hard part with this because there's two fronts. But yeah, I'm sorry. That's that is the only challenge because the lot is just such an odd shape right there in the corner that it didn't really give them the So, it's saying that the horse can be in this red area right up in the corner down where's that map with the yellow portion on there with the radius the radius. I mean, we're not telling you what to do, but yeah, just as we're discussing this, it's a how I'm just curious. How close could you get the structure to that yellow portion?

We could get the structure there, but then it would be you can't have a structure there based off of the radius report. How how close Anyway, I'm just suggest you have the structure. It's the animal or the the animal is what's the problem? Your corral where the 10,000 square feet for the animal is within these radiuses. That's the issue. The structure that you have that you want to move is not the issue. It's the It's the footage that you need. But if we move the structure the structure, it's in the 30 foot setback. It's in the setback based off of those. It's 46 parameters 46 ft.

And correct me if I think the bigger issue is is the accessory building up on the front part of the lot. Well, I think they're both they're both needing in compliance. But if you could keep it in compliance and keep it close to yellow, that would be the smartest thing to do. They can put the the structure on Yep. in the red circle there in the backyard behind the house for the they can't put it shed 30 ft from the road and they can't put it 30 ft from the road. So that's what's wrong with the shed that's in the front yard. Not not one other house had a structure in their front yard

in that neighborhood or my drive home. Um, so that needs to be move the the shed in the front needs to be moved back past next to the garage, right? House, right? And then the other structure that's in the back corner currently needs to be just moved forward 2 feet to bring it off of that, right? That uh drainage easement that the city has on your property. Um, but if you want to bring it closer to where this yellow outline is, maybe in the middle of your backyard so the horse can access it like like Tyson said, have a gate or something.

I'm just Yeah, it seems like there would be enough room right there behind the house. If we just leave it, then they have to meet the We're giving them a variance on the the the 100 foot buffer with the animal. We're not giving them a varian. Well, they didn't ask for a variance, though. So, we're just allowing a conditional use permit. What's the difference between a variance and a conditional use permit? Different criteria. It's a question you probably don't want to ask. Um, sorry. Variance is a is a specific legal term of art. So, we shouldn't use the word variance. Variance is not being sought by these folks tonight. That would be a certain criteria proves certain hardship or whatever. Yeah.

And this is just we're letting you do it. But yeah, developers. Yeah, I just don't want to confuse the issue. That's all. Cover it. So, if if I may, could could we get a restatement of the um motion? There was a lot of discussion that took place after the motion. Absolutely. Um if we could please have that again for the record. I think I think it is the same motion. Nothing is nothing has been added to. Then perhaps if we could restate it and and clarify or or um

it just it it got a little muddled. I think you're going to make me do this all over again.

Sorry. in consideration of the uphill by Courtney Rosel for the uh for the zoning administrator's denial of the request to keep one large animal on five at 565 South McKay Circle located in R121 zoning district. I we propose or I propose the following that that uh they be allowed the conditional use for the one animal but that they are required to comply with city code regarding the setback for structures. they will pay a fee associated with this request that they will follow health and safety standards including uh that they do not create a nuisance that if and if there is a nuisance created that that will be I'll come back to I guess the non-compliance but if there's a nuisance created that that would have to be addressed the scope of use will be that you will have one animal in this conditional use and that this is subject to administrative review if there is a problem which goes back to non-compliance that you you And then that was submitted or received by the city that that would be addressed by the planning commission and decide we would decide if that conditional use was going to be revoked or addressed at that time.

So how do we get in there? Number six, non-compliance consequences failure to comply. Can we can we get a motion and then we can have more discussion? Okay. Well, I'm trying to make this part of the motion.

Oh, I see. that that I'd want a condition that if there's a reasonable claim complaint comes forth to the commission that that would be means for ramification. I don't know if one through six covers that. It just u I mean to address your concerns that there's an unresolved complaint that comes before us that would be cause for that would be number seven in my mind. Well, number six does say failure to comply with any of these requirements may result in the revocation of the permit. But but none of those do any of those really specify uh well which one is the the neighbor complaints with let me see when I talk about the

number five highlighted that on your screen. Okay. Okay. Okay. Sorry missed that. No, that's okay. That's a lot. Make sure that was there. Okay. That's a lot. I hate to put that on your shoulders. So, do we have a second? I have I'll second. Okay, we have a motion and a second. Now, do we have further discussion? Okay,

I just feel you guys are really up against the battle here that it's that if this is if this permit is if this conditional use permit is granted, it's still going to be a huge uphill battle for you. I can just see this coming in the future. I I know it's probably something you're you're willing to take on right now, but I just want I just want to be on the record. I think this is going to be a very big uphill battle. I think this is going to I I just see this turning bad. I don't I don't I just take just from my opinion. I'm I'm one of four here, but I I just see this going bad and somebody I I just don't see this lasting very long. That's just my my opinion. I I know it's not what you want to hear, but that's just my opinion. I just I just don't see this I see sometime this summer someone's going to bring a nuisance complaint and it's going to be valid. And maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong for you guys at standpoint. I really hope they're wrong, but I I my gut feeling tells me we're up against an uphill battle here.

I don't disagree. We're just giving them a chance. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Okay. Do we want to take a vote? Yes. Okay. All in favor? I I

I will say nay. I'm sorry. It just does not by any stretch of the imagination comply with our rules and and regulations. I I hate to do that, but it I have to echo the fact that I those 100 foot setbacks are there for a reason. And I echo the concern that it's going to be really hard for you guys to upkeep that and I know that you want to and these commission members are willing to support that but it really doesn't comply even with conditional use. So, but do we need to take a roll call vote then? Okay. Gary I Jason I John I

I vote nay for the record. Thank you though. Didn't mean to make it such a long night. Motion passes. Okay. Motion passes with one abstaining. And do we get emails with what the fees are? We haven't seen any of that. Yeah, she'll be able to reach out to you. We've never seen anything on that. Yeah, she'll be able to reach out to you. Probably should ask for that before he came and asked for an I don't care. We'll pay it. It doesn't matter. I'm sure you I have no doubt. I have no doubt. I would look at that fence, too. I'm sorry. It's expensive. That sucks. I'm sorry. Fence was happening regardless. Thank you for listening to us. Sorry to put you through that. Thank you for discussion. Okay.

All right. We'll close that item. Thank you guys. Uh we'll move on to item number two. Presentation public hearing and discussion and consideration of a proposed conditional use permit for micro entrepreneurship. Vicky Lake and Kathleen Hunt to operate a homebased business consisting of a farm stand and the sale of cottage food products and non-food craft items at 10 West Clark Street located in the RM7 zoning district. Hello,

How's it going? That was a that was a great conversation. Thank you for that. I appreciate that on that last item. Um, so this should come as no big surprise. Um we did the whole micro entrepreneurship um use in the table and uh now the uh applicants are here for uh review of their conditional use permit request and um the the staff report is exhaustive with regard to the explanation and the discussion. So I don't want to get into that a whole lot. Um I think you guys are familiar with what is being proposed and where and so if you have any questions let me know. the applicant is here and uh they have been very patient through this whole process. They've worked well with us and and um I'm I'm grateful for that personally. Uh they've been very patient and understanding with staff as we tried to get to a good place and we feel like we're there. Um, I would just point out that there are some conditions that are listed in the staff report that uh help to address some of the potential concerns that could be on the property and uh would invite you to look at those very carefully and um if you have any questions or concerns, let us know.

Thank you.

Okay. Uh we have an opportunity to take public comment on this item. So if anybody is here and would like to speak except for the applicants uh about the um the conditional use permit for a micro entrepreneurship allowing Vicky Lake and Kathleen Hunt to operate homebased business consisting of a farm stand and the sale of cottage food products and non food craft goods at 10 West Clark Street uh located in the RM7 zoning district. Please approach the podium and state your name or if you're online, raise your hand. No one appears to be interested in performing public comment, so we will close the public comment and we will invite Vicki and Kathleen to the podium. You'll state your name. Um our uh commission members might have some questions for you. I'm Vicky Light.

Kathleen Hunt. Thank you. Good to see you again. Good to see you. Good to see you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, Jason. Um I thank you for coming back again and thank you for being patient as we work through this. I this has been exciting as we look at how to work through this micro entrepreneurship. Right.

Again, I don't have I guess the only main question I have and this is part of the comment and we can turn it into a question. Uh, one of the things that we've talked about in the previous item and we're talking about here today is that setback for for structures in the front. Um, that is something that I that I think to be consistent we wouldn't be able to support as far as having you and what you've laid out before in your previous time here in front of the commission as far as what you want to do. I think it's great. I'm excited that you have something that you you're passionate about and you feel like we can we can try to support here as a as a city uh commission. I would I would be supportive of that. The setback piece is something I think that again being consistent, we're going to have to to work through what that what that looks like. But as far as the the work you're doing here, I think that's great. Tell me what that do you guys have a do you ladies have a plan on what you would do as far as try to try to meet those setback requirements if we said that was not acceptable where you currently have the proposed buildings. Uh, the buildings can be moved. Do I want them to be moved? No. But they can be. And the reason being, I mean, this corner lot thing, you know, if we're around the back, that's bringing people into my backyard where I don't really want the public back there

visible, right? for the public that they could see and we don't want to have to put up signs and stuff because that will take away from the what we want it to look like. So, and I I mean I understand the no buildings on the front yard and the side, you know, where it's a corner lot like that. I I do understand that, but it is far enough off the road. It is. It's not a fire hazard. Yeah, we've talked to the fire

and there's plenty of room to get around. It doesn't obstruct a driveway. We can turn it so it's kind of in between the like there's two trees and be between the driveway cuz the driveway is huge. The front yard is it's a huge lot. So, I'm guessing we could say we could turn it and stuff and maybe kind of put it like in towards the driveway

so it shows more of the house so it's more on the side of the house, but then it kind of goes into the driveway and then we'd have to would have a little bit of room to move the driveway over a little bit, but it would still be in the front. And our um what we're envisioning is these little buildings with uh planter boxes and flowers and bench, fruits, vegetables,

fruits, vegetables around these buildings. We don't want um to put anything that you have to walk through or like any perglas or anything like that. We don't want we want to leave it open other than the buildings and the walking paths to each like walking paths to each building. But we may mainly want to showcase flowers and plants and stuff that we will be selling in the farm stand and the other buildings. Yeah.

Would the farm stand alone just not be sufficient? That that's the modest I'm not sure what that means, but um

I mean, could it could you operate use that schedule as an inventory area and just have this modest farm stand? I mean, is that not feasible at all? not for what we want to do with the little cottage kitchen and the baked goods and the home canned foods in the other buildings and the quilts. The little farm stand we have is quite small and it number one if it's just a farm stand it should just only be produce and eggs which that's not feasible. I mean,

is that what it would be restricted to? Uh, just could the farm stand have I don't know what this farm stand would look like. I guess could it be could that be the compromise and could could you still operate? I don't believe we'd have enough room with just the one building. Can I ask what it is with having the buildings? what what the main concern is with having those projects. Tyson, I don't know if you want to revisit this or you want me to just read what's on the staff report

for the front yard accessory structures. zoom in a little more because I I think that uh we as we discussed before last time you were here the two 12 x 12 sheds that are located in the front yard um indicates uh that the um accessory structures uh as they were presented is prohibited accessory structures ers um in in front yards under our our city code. Um so they don't comply with the zoning placement requirements.

And I think Tyson, if you recall, Jason, you were here too when when these ladies were here last time. Did we talk about maybe having movable buildings that you could bring out while your uh hours of operation are open and then put them move them back towards your house out of the front yard setback? Did we talk about that uh

unless it was like a tent like structure? We did talk about and I that's where I'm kind of coming from I guess was the concern we had about specifically that the shed that was in front of the house was something that I didn't feel felt like met the intent of the of what we're trying to show for the the city ordinance for that. The the sideyard gets complicated because that is you have basically two front yards and that makes it a little bit more of a challenge. As far as the one in front of the house, I I think we talked about how that would have to be worked through and that I at the time I'm still not okay with having it there and it's nothing against what you're trying to do. It sounds amazing. I think it's just trying to be consistent over how we interpret the the city code

and how we apply the city code. Kyson, you're welcome to jump in anytime here. Well, you're putting him on the spot.

I know. I'm I'm I'm afraid I'm I'm I'm not certain what what exactly is being asked. question. It mentioned the how it's interpreted. That's that's what was kind of throwing me. Um where did it say uh says 4.8 states that any space set aside for a yard or open space may not be utilized for the construction of a building. 4.9 states that yards are to be unobstructed except for permitted accessory buildings in the year rear yard. This suggests that accessory buildings are only permitted in your rear yards. Excuse me. Thank you, Nicole.

Where's it mentioned? It just seemed like there was some wiggle room or something, but it was saying how the where does it say was interpreted? Uh, let me just see. So there there is one accessory building that's allowed in the front yard which is their farm stand. Yes. Yeah. Is there a limit? Is there specifics on size of that? There are. Yeah, it's that's uh it's 10 by 10. Is that what code says?

And you're saying that doesn't work for you? Well, so that's the farm stand which is in the green and then the other two buildings that we're talking about is red on this print out right here. So the farm stand you talked about. Sorry you weren't here. This is before you and and Gary got here, but it's these two buildings that they that they they have there now that they have asked them to consider moving or doing something different with. Well, while the planning and zoning office worked out our new entrepreneurship um regulation that's now in our code. So, um this isn't the first time we've had a discussion about these buildings.

Yeah. And if you look at this picture, this farm stand over here, the second building is right now it's far enough that you can see the house in between the two buildings. It's not it's not even in front of directly in front of the house. And we can move it a little bit farther so that you can see because the yard is big enough. It's not like um it's not like you can't walk through or it's technically if we was to divide it. I'm not sure what how big it could be. There could be three homes. I think enough room for at least two homes on that property.

Yeah. It's not the size of the property that is up. I'm just saying it's not blocking the home, the view of the home. Um, the farm stand's not blocking any uh stop signs. There's plenty of property out front that it doesn't if it's not right next to traffic. There's frontage, a lot of frontage. Um there's a lot of the on the side which is also there's a lot

of room that kids walk down the side of the road which we really would like a sidewalk there in the future if nothing else if this don't even happen because their kids do walk right there a lot of small children in the area stops and there's a bus stop right there and the sidewalk stops at the side of that house and there's a lot of homes being built down that way that the kids go down to. So, I found the sentence I was troubled with. Um, number three, the placement of the two accessory structures in the front yard raises zoning compliance concerns, right,

based upon prior legal interpretation. I mean, do they violate or if we determine legally they violate? Yeah. Or point. Okay. Let's see if I can Well, I trust you. We found it. It does. And that's

Well, we just had it. Yep. This one. So, we have 4.9 and 4.8. So, 4.8. No required yard or other open space around existing buildings or which is hereafter provided around any building for the purpose of complying with the provisions of this code. shall be considered as providing a yard or open space for any other building. Nor shall any yard or other required open space on an adjoining lot be considered as providing a yard or open space on a lot where a building is to be erected or established. And then 4.9 is the yards to be unobstructed. And um we've talked about this one with the uh aesthetics of a of of the city that we were trying to maintain and and had in mind when the zoning office had tried to create the uh entrepreneurship rule. Every part of a required yard shall be open to the sky unobstructed except for permitted accessory buildings in a rear yard. their ordinary architectural projection of skylight seals, belt courses, cornises, chimney, splits, other ornamental features which project to a yard not more than two and a half ft and open or lattice enclosed fire escapes. Fireproof outside stairways and balconies opening up open, excuse me, up on fire towers projecting into a yard not more than 5t. So

the other thing about this is we're not just approving it for you as I understand the ordinance it would run with the land. So whoever bought this property from you would then have this right that we're not sure. I don't know that I want to have perpetually. It's understandable. It really is.

Could that not go in the conditional use that if the house sold someone else? Well, I think I think when we this we discussed this last time, we talked about asking if there was a way that you could make those structures movable so when you were not open for business that they could be moved. The other option that maybe could be a possibility is extending a porch-like structure attached to your house off the front of it that could house what you wanted and and maybe could provide an area that would walk through to your front door. that that would per and and that would be permitted because that would be part of your house. The the problem with the code is that these are structures in your front yard where they're not permitted. It doesn't matter how big your yard is. If I was to take the two sheds that are in question and set them right next to my house and throw a piece of plywood from the building to the house,

you'd have to get probably work with the city to get a building permit to attach it to your house. But that would be okay. Yeah. I mean, it would look like crap, but I mean, well, it would be an probably would be the right way to do it, but there is a way to do it that could look very nice and I think might cost more money, but it could it could happen. We're we're trying to work within the city ordinances, telling you where you want to be. I just this this is hard and I think you're hitting where I'm going is this it sets a precedent what we're trying to look through this. It's not just your property, but it's someone else coming and saying, "I want to do this and I want to put a building in front of my house." And I I just don't think it's something we want to walk down right now. But and we just told those other folks who were up here before you that we just put through a living hack

that they had to move that structure that was in their front yard. But if we moved the second building to the side of the house, so they would all three be on the side. Yeah, that would be fine. That's not your front yard according to city stand. But then they'd be meant for just storage, not for access of the public. So it would be the farm stand, I guess, some part of your home that could be used that way, but it would be part of your home that I think. Can we move the farm stand and put one of the bigger buildings where the farm stand sits? It's a 10 by 10, I think, requirement. Is that all that could be there is a 10 by 10? I think we just

I think you're tired. 10 x 10 movable. It's got to be non-permanent. Okay. So, no footings or anything, but So, no footings, no power. I mean, no like Yeah. underground power to it or anything.

It's a great idea, but just location isn't the So, they would have to be completely moved into the backyard. But it only be used for storage though, not for public access to come in. So, is there any way we can make this happen? I mean,

it's a big yard and yeah, I I think that the code is clear about what the front yard and limits on the structures are. So, I'm not I'm I'm sure that you know our planning and zoning office would be open to looking at other options if you want to work directly with them and then come back. Can't we change the planning the zoning? Why why does that have to stay the same? Zoning just to allow the entrepreneurship zone specifically. I mean, we created a whole new

what it's zoned for right now. It's not the zone specifically. It's the definition of a front yard and having buildings in your front yard. That is what's in the code. And I was under the impression that that zone we was zoned there that multiple homes could be put on that and it's been that way for a long time. Okay. Four. But again, I'm sorry. I'm not sure if I'm if I'm guess what Sarah say. The zoning for the house is is irrelevant for what we're talking about. We're talking about a micro entrepreneurship which has now been established in this zone overlay.

So it overlays this zone and it it doesn't supersede. It just overlays. So regardless of you could put one, two or three houses on the property that that's not the issue at hand. It's the micro entrepreneurship. Um

but it's not aligning with the code. So there's the zone. We've already we've rebuilt a whole section of code for you to try to work what you want into what's allowed in the zone like Gary was saying, but the code for a front yard states that no permanent buildings will be in the front yard. So, they're two separate things. So, zoning we've tried to fix for you. Okay. The code applies to everybody all consistently. everybody's front yard. You just like I said, sorry. Could I build houses there then? Did you say

no? You'd have to subdivide your property and they'd have to be of sufficient size to subdivide in the first place, but we just told those folks before that they had to move their shed from their front yard to their backyard to comply with the code on the setbacks. And and I understand that and I see that. But their shed was setting right. There was no way there a farm or I mean a fire truck could get past those. There is an ours and ours. Yeah. And ours actually has two front yards.

Is there any way we can take make the side not a front yard? So it doesn't apply to the cults because we have because it's a big corner lot. It is a corner lot and in our code those are both considered front yards. I'm so going back to the request actually is it let's just look at what is actually being um back where could you pull that up. So the the you're asking for variance for the municipal waste to bury pasture from

what they're coming for is uh applying for a conditional use permit under the micro. Right. So it's under the micro. It's nothing to do with the other Right. Right. So we're having problems with is these items that goes all the way to 14 or so that we had oh 18 that we had pre previously discussed with them. And one of those was the fact that there are buildings in the front yard. So if you weren't running a business at all, you'd still be in violation. You should you should. Yes. And you're not asking for that variance. You're just asking for

I mean you can't I guess totally separate them. But is there any way that part of the existing home could be used for what you're trying to do? Um no, not at No, not at this point. No, cuz it's it's her home and it's and it's it's an old home and it's had a lot to get it upgraded to, you know, like the wiring's been replaced and but it still has a lot to Yeah.

And she, you know, and it's her living space, so it's the yard's a lot bigger than the house. And the house is not as big as it looks. So, forgive me because I'm just coming into this conversation. So, I'm assuming Vicki, correct? You're the operator. Yeah, Kathleen, you're the employee here or you're both operator. The operators. We're both operators. So, also that's I thought you could have one operator, one employee as part of the micro way, but it's just two. Am I correct though, Bill? One operator. It's kind of open these. It's it's a familyrun operation. So, it's they're it's

we could we could wink and nod at a little bit on that

and selling incidental sales, right? Just you're you you have extra of whatever it may be. No, she the stand is sells um produce uh the jellies, the jams. It's like a co-op. The local gardens, the local art artists bring their stuff. Put it in the sheds. Miniature farmers market. Yes. Exactly. Yes. Exactly.

I mean, don't get us wrong. We try t try to support what you're doing. We love it. We want that opportunity to be in the city. It's just these structures as Jason said. We've talked about it before and you hadn't uh you had a little bit of time to come up with other options for us to consider knowing that that was one of our sticking points and we hadn't seen an suggestion on how to come to a a consensus on what to do with those buildings. even though we did talk about it last time you were here.

The one thing I think we and I do remember talking a little bit about the the nuance of having two sideyards and I think or two front yards because of the way this property is situated. I I in my mind I would go a little bit softer on the the side the sideyard that's considered front. But I do think that having something in front of the house is going to set a precedent that I'm not comfortable with. As far as that sideyard being a front yard, I think we might be able to bend a little bit on or I would be able to bend a little bit on that with the intent that it's if we can get that moved to more of your front yard, the sideyard, what we're calling front and this according to city ordinance that I would be willing to work with that way, but I don't think I could support anything in front of the house. Could I ask for a little clarification on that

just from my own understanding? Same here. Could could you just you're saying one structure on on that sideyard maybe? Are you saying is um No, the the I'm sorry. The clarification I'm looking for is are you talking about the Hail Street front yard or the Clark Street front yard? The Hill the Hell Street front yard. I could be bent a little like saying we could have a house there or I mean a shed there in my mind where I still think we're meeting the intent that it's not in front of the h in front of the house which is like just what we addressed in the last item that we had as something in front of the house and as the as the way the house faces or could you have two because you have two front yards technically could you have two uh where we're talking 10 by 10 stands

one side yard and one on the front yard and the fruit the the fruit stand that they've already have is approved in the front corner and that was a 10 x 10 and that was not a permanent structure or not considered a permanent structure. So that's that I don't think is in question. I think it's the shed if I understand right. Yeah. Why are any of them considered permanent? Wait, the the way we were just been talking through this we can't have any permanent structures there. What makes it permanent? Structures. You said you couldn't move. We can we can move them just on skids. I mean and they can be moved within an hour. What makes it permanent?

Because when we put the farm stand there, we got a letter stating they will suggested we anchor it down. Is that permanent? So the the question is I think if if you'll forgive me Sarah. No, please Bill. I I think the the question isn't whether or not it's permanent or like a fixed to the ground, but more like is it occupied space? Are there is it a place for people to go in? A farm stand, you kind of walk around and pick the squash or cucumbers or whatever you'd like,

but these other structures are meant for you to go inside of them and then you close them off and it's it's a permanent kind of display, okay? rather than a seasonal or a temporary kind of use. Um these are the differences in my mind is in in whether or not the space can be occupied and um it says in the code that it's storage only. It's very specific to that. So do you could have it there but it would be storage only. But I'm suggesting I think with Jason that you could have two stands and maybe we'll stand on on each side of the house.

Front yard hill front yard. Uh have two that stand on each of those. I think I could support that. Is that what you're thinking? Move something so it's south of the north corner of that on the Hell Street side of the house. Yeah. So you could have a a stand, a 10 by10 stand on each yard, front yard if you will. But any of those other structures, they are just storage. This have to be storage. You could use that as storage. Just take your stuff. This kind of brings stuff out, you know, if you're going to speak, we probably want you to come up to the microphone. I don't know. This is Arie, my husband. And he Yeah, that's cool. Arie,

we want you on the record. It's okay. Yeah. for the minutes. I'm already talking what I'm saying is what if they do it to where they're putting stuff in there so basically they can lock it up at night or whatever but display it at on the outside doesn't need to doesn't need to be in there. The buildings aren't very big difference it makes if they're walking in there to see it or walking up to the door to see it. Well, it's a 10 x 10 structure is what they're really allowing. And I think I'm open to doing two of those. That gives you enough retail space, you know, to accomplish

what you want. I think that could could work. But to have these larger structures and where they're located, I think Okay. Um, when you say by the side of the house, do you mean one on each side? Each front yard. It looks like you've got a hell front yard and a Yes. Clark front. So, we could leave the front one where it is and then put the other two like where they are on this on that. Could we set it up like that? He's saying to period I think two two buildings and then the farm stand in addition to that, right? I was saying the farm stand on the front yard front yard clerk two buildings 10 by 10.

Okay, that's kind of what we have now. other than one. So far, I think what we've drawn here, I think, is is the intent of what I was trying to say is like, look, we're out. We've got the farm stand, which you have in that front corner. I get that. That's I really consider that more of a a real temporary structure. If we were to move the sheds to where they were on, even though this is saying front yard, but to the side, to the side, I could I could personally get behind that piece because I think it's still meeting the intent that we don't have things in front of the house. Okay. As as the house faces the street, okay? Okay. Because you're not facing Hell Street and that's where I'm where my mind is.

Okay. Could we do that? Because I know it got brought up last time and we would be willing to do this, but Hell Street has a stop sign on it and there is um frontage on Hellside Street side. And if we have two on the side, it might have people parking there. But we would be willing to put something that's no parking signs or something that it allows the parking. Oh, okay. Okay. I just wanted to because I know that was brought up. They would have to pretty much parallel park. There's not enough room there to There's Yeah, there's quite a bit of room.

Yeah, there is. Not as much as in front, but you could park face in the fence and have So, would your intent be that they would be able to park on Hell Street and immediately walk into your yard? So there's not a fence there. They wouldn't have to walk around the front of Clark Street to get into your property or I'm asking. That's what she's asking. That's what I'm asking. Yeah. I don't I don't want that to be an issue with people pulling inside with people coming closer to the traffic. What's the frontage on the H on the Clark front yard? What's the lots of room? How many? I don't know how many feet, but it's important. It's got

it's probably the same amount as from the house to the sidewalk because 170 as I recall is in the ordinance and that is that long or is that from the road to the fence? It's frontage on the road. So change it. Are we talking Clark or are we talking hell? I'm saying both. If you have 120 on both yards. Yeah. So hell is 197 there parking allowed and 140. What What is it? 140. 140 for Clark and then about 197 for Hill. You figure about 20 feet per

I thought we changed it to 15 was treated like two separate that's from the road to the sidewalk. Yeah. And I'm ask we have in the ordinance it states how many they take it down from 200 to 150. I think so. I thought it was 150. I think the advantage you have here is you one guy look two different guys voted on 150 is what is it from the uh sidewalk or from the home? It's how many feet are on the street? So the city's property.

Well, yeah. is how many you above the distance the city street and it's apparent it's 140 on the street and it's 140 is it yeah 140 on Clark and then 197 on hber that's roughly so it's maybe close enough to consider that to what she's asking is do you guys want them to park on hill street or everything on street I think both of my mind be able to be there. It's a little safer. It's a little safer. Street's the best. Is there a fence all the way around on the both the Clark and the Hill side? No, I've taken off out the fence on both sides.

There's one little section that I haven't got down yet, but it's coming down as well. What's the dimensions of those other those two buildings in question? The red ones on the one map? 200 square ft just under like 197. So they're 10 20 by 20. They're 20 by 1000. I think you misunderstood it. What do you how big the are? Sorry. So the second third building, how big? What are the dimensions of those? We had a draw. Yeah. What are the dimensions of these? Can we pull that up? She's pulling it up. Yeah. This one, not 200. They're like what? They're close. Are they close to 10 by 10 or they

they're Yes. 10 by 10's 100. 20 by 10 is too. Those two red buildings the dimensions are those are what? Well, the one small on the corner is really small. I think they're 10 by 10. All three of those structures right now are 10. The green and the two reds. But it work the the building three because it has farm stand isn't 10 by 10. Yeah, it the the farm stand is 10, but it's only it's just like a little lean with doors going in.

But the two red ones, building two and three. I'm pretty sure the one in front is 10 by 10, but I'm not positive the building three is 10 by 10 because it has a front porch on it. Can you do away with the green one? Going back to that map and that's small one. You did away with the green one and put the red. The green one is put another one on. Okay, she's I'm sorry. What was he saying? So, go back to that backward. This says that the two sheds in your front yard are 12 by 12 by 12.

So that map if you took you did away with the farm stand the green and if those two red ones were 10 by 10 put one red one where the green box is now and the other one could be where it is. I suppose it's probably and it would have to be 10 x 10 if there I'm wrong and they might be 12 x 12 but well 10 x 10's the ordinance isn't structure I think yours ended up being yeah 10 by 10

because of the try bring it back so maybe I don't know. We kind of give any feedback. Maybe you propose something concrete that complies the two 10 by 10 buildings. Jason's over there. I am one would be on the Hell Street frontage and one would be on the

Does the porch count as part of it or because it's got because the one building is It's longer, but it's because it's got a porch on it. It's basically a It's not a floor. It's the But it' be like if you're stepping out your front door, you'd be stepping on the porch a bit. More considered 10 by 10. The inside area or I was picturing I was picturing the inside area. Inside area. Yeah. The fruit stand doesn't have inside areas. Yeah, that it probably just be the footprint of whatever structures. Yeah, it would make a difference between if it's 10 x 10 and 12 x 12.

Okay, I'm pretty sure they're 10 by 10, but the one is 12 because of the porch.

What is your farm stand? It's a way

technically comply if it's those are those are not two parcels or are they two it's just one so that division of the two is just kind of a showing from is all that is so if we move the farm and keep the other buildings under 10 by 10. Right. Could we do it? It has to be 10 by 12 that way. 10 by 12 10 by 10. Okay. Yeah. So 10 by 10 buildings is the is the okay code.

Okay. And clearly you can have one already where that green dot is on the hill. And I'd be open to allowing one on the other on allow hill. And most of our stuff is outside like in the garden boxes or I go out and move it out. So I mean if it's a problem with the people coming into the buildings we can do it to where we can move this stuff out in and out in and out of the buildings building bigger than 10 by 10. You can take your other building and put it your backyard or whatever. Use that as your storage. Right.

It says it has to be concealed. I don't know. Yeah. It says the storage. Dang it. I just said it. So, I'm not saying we can't utilize all three of them, but two, one of them would have to be storage. Okay. Yep. So, the one I could move to the backyard and use just for my eBay storage stuff sold on eBay, right? Yes. Okay. Yes. As long as it's not doing the business. So they're basically not able to go in it. But you can you can for access your storage. There's exact wordage in the ordinance setup.

Um says structure would be permitted for storage only.

Accessory sheds shall not be used for customer access or retail display. And there was one that said storage must be enclosed. Let's see. I think that's what it was is the stores must be enclosed. So that's that's what I was thinking closed. has who has the ordinance handy.

They're um it talks about the storage facility for the the zone. So packet says key standards includes activities are primarily conducted indoors. No regular outdoor business activity. Retail sales must be secondary to on-site production or services. Traffic generation shall be comparable to home occupation. Outdoor storage is prohibited unless screened and approved.

Screened and approved. Only one independent micro business per site. Screened and approved. So seems like a shed in your back would be screened and approved. Yes. But it's just for storage.

Yes. So the the current proposal includes two detach two detached structures used for retail display and sales in a separate farm stand for use in the front yard. This configuration results in three areas of business activity on the property including outdoor activity visible from the street. Um, so we want to reduce that scale to one detached structure in the front yard used for retail display and sales and a separate farm stand in the front yard. Is that correct?

Awesome. Yeah, that would I would be open to that. Some Jason was Yeah, you essentially have two front yards. I think the spirit of it is someone down the street just has their frontage of 150 ft. And you've got basically two of those. Well, close. Yeah.

Ordinance set traffic limits to approximately one to two customers per hour and requires impacts comparable to a home occupation. Um the presence of multiple cell structures on site customer parking in the front yard. Visible retail display areas may increase the intensity of the USM but is typically associated with a low pack home occupation. And retail secondary requirement says uh if the primary activity becomes retail display and sells from a detached building, the use may shift towards a smallcale retail operation rather than a microp production business with incidental sales. So we want to stay under that threshold and maintain that smallcale retail operation.

Yes. So we're pushing that by allowing a second building on Yes. Okay. H but

yeah that would be item two. Outdoor storage is prohibited unless screened and approved. Uh any good stored in sheds or displayed externally must meet compatibility standards and not create visual clutter inconsistent with residential character. So, I think we've addressed that. Um, based on the ordinance language, the following configuration would align more directly with the code intent. Business activity conducted primarily within the residence or or one compliant enclosed structure. Sorry, it's been a long day now already. One accessory building used strictly for storage if permitted by zoning and setback standards. No customer access within the accessory sheds. A modest farm stand approved by the commission with defined size and hours. Okay.

So, it sounds like there's some latitude on the defined size. I guess limited of the farm stand, right? Limited signage consistent with residential standards, which is not a big billboard. We're looking a sign in a window or so. No bigger than Yes, I think there is a sign standard in our code, but I can't recall what it is. probably 8 by 10 or 8 by 11 traffic comparable to a typical home occupation. Um so with those um define size and hours what is the size of your farm stand?

I think it her farm stand is 10 by six and the other building is I'm going to say I thought it was 10 x 10 but I'm going to say 12 x 12 to be safe. Are we keeping the farm stand in the front corner then? Well, I think what I was supporting, well, I would know what I was supporting was a defined structure. I don't know, Bill, is that have to be is it 10 by 10? Is it what it says or

to meet the requirements of this section of the code? Yes. So a 10 x10 structure on park a 10 by10 structure on h storage wherever it complies with setbacks elsewhere on the property. That's what I was open to. So you had envision moving one of the sheds to where the farm stand is. Apparently, if it's the right size, whether it's a farm stand or that that would be better anyway. Then to have a similar one on hail and wherever that's the other the third building storage would have to be moved moved to around the back

screen in the back screen means to me it's it's not obviously out there. It's part of the business storing stuff, right? Yeah. Okay. And it means setback. Yeah. I don't think we dictate where that was in the back like they're drawing a picture does not have to be in my mind but screen is all I think dictates behind the house. Yeah. Okay. Whatever that one I think what I'm saying where you are. I think I'm supportive of you got two front yards is what we're calling them. You get we support one stand in each front yard. So I can put one on Clark. Yeah. As long as it's not in front of the house. The clerk is the farm stand site and then one behind like the farm stand down lower.

So is the the front building is that considered hill or is that considered Clark because it's on the farm stand the north of building would be considered. So that's Clark. Okay. The other one. Okay. Okay. So like your building. So just like it's set up right there. Yeah. Well, there was a concern about it encroaching on the house. I don't know where the second one has to be. Um maybe it's better they're both close to the corner there too. Yeah, they got to they got to do a clear view triangle through there. Is the farm stand currently there or is this something you're proposing to build? So there's currently there. They're all there.

Yeah, the structures that are indicated in that other image with the two red blocks and the farm stand um everything is current. Those are there currently. So, I'm totally okay with just two buildings as well. I mean, that's totally doable. Yeah, me too.

Okay. Outdoor storage is prohibited unless green and approved. Uh, any goods stored in sheds or displayed externally must meet compatibility standards, not create visual clutter inconsistent with residential character, but would be clearly permitted. Oh, I already read these. Uh, so the defined size of the one on Clark is 10 by 10. And you guys are good with that. And Hill is what I was thinking. They' both be 10 by 10 because the one on Hell is going to be 10 by 12. Oh. I think that selling the porch is the two. Yeah. Porch included.

Yeah, I'm fine with that.

Okay. Posed use qualifies as a conditional use under the micro entrepreneurship ordinance. Current site configuration includes multiple detached structures used for retail sales which may conflict with the requirement that activities be primarily conducted indoors. Um, the placement of two accessory structures in the front yard raises zoning compliance concerns. Okay, we addressed that. Without conditions, the proposal may exceed low intensity neighborhood compatible scale envisioned by the ordinance. Okay, so I think we've addressed that. Reasonable conditions could mitigate potential impacts if the commission determines the use can be brought into compliance, which I think everybody's in agreement. Okay. If there's another yard down the street like this, I think you have the same arrangement. Be okay.

All these corner lots, they're just kicking our butts. Yeah. I saw something that Salt Lake City has the biggest blocks in the nation. And I think we're second to that. Yeah.

All business act. Okay. So, here's the recommended conditions. All business activity should be pro shall be primarily conducted within one enclosed structure. Accessory sheds shall not be used for customer access or retail displays. That is the shed that we're moving to the back. Okay. Um, accessory structure shall comply with all setback requirements of the RM7 zoning district. The farm stand shall be limited in size and improved location. Okay, so we are doing away with the farm stand. We're replacing that with the building. Uh, hours of operation shall be limited from 7:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. consistent with ordinance standards. Traffic shall not sorry number six traffic shall not exceed levels typical of a home occupation. Number seven, any outdoor storage must be screened and approved. Number eight, any expansion or of structures or intensity of use shall require additional planning commission review. Number nine, failure to comply with conditions may result in replication of the conditional use permit. 10, the conditional use permit shall run with the land unless revoked uh due to non-compliance. Number 11, compliance with city code. All requirements of the city code must be met unless otherwise modified and approved by this body. Uh number 12, payment of fees. All fees associated with the permit and future permits must be paid. Number 13, health and safety standards. All industry standards regarding health, safety, and welfare regulations must be followed. Number 14, state licensing. The permit holder must maintain current state license at all time. Number 15, business license. The permit holder must maintain a current business license at all time. Number 16, scope of use. The use of the property must remain within the parameters approved in the application. Any expansion of use requires prior approval. Okay. So, we read 1 through 16. We removed four that has to do with the

farmstead because that's being placed to by building. Should be two buildings on the property. One in the front yard that faces Clark Street that is 10x 10, no bigger than 10 x 10, and one that is spacing hill that is no larger than 10 by 12, located near the home, not in front. And is there anything else? Are you guys you guys accept what we just what she just outlaid? Yes, I do. Yes. Okay. We have any further discussion? We'll entertain a motion. You're afraid to

I'm going to motion this, but you're going to have to hear me out because I just want to make sure we're clear. Okay. So, be patient here. Okay. I'm going to motion that we deny without prejudice the consideration of appeal by Courtney Rossell, the zoning administration's denial request. Well, that's sorry, I'm reading the wrong one. Let me get to the right one here. Um it's like sorry I'm reading the wrong one but I'm not and I'll explain this in more right um

that would deny without prejudice the proposed conditional use permit for the micro entrepreneurship allowing for Vicky Lake and at Kathleen Hunt to operate a homebased business consisting of a farm stand and a scale of cottage food products and non-craft goods at 10 West Clark Street located in the RM7 with the Harry Are So, I'm just making this motion. I know. I heard you say deny.

Yeah. I want to deny without prejudice, allowing the applicants to come and revise their site plan and their plan so we're not just hodge podgeing this together right now. I'd rather say, hey, have them come and revise their site plan that aligns more clearly with the with the with the recommendations that we spell out and then with um and I don't want to be another year. I'm not asking. I'm hoping you guys can do this quickly. Is there is there a mechanism where we can take the drawings we have here and part of the minutes and say we approve based on what we and things aren't there. I understand. That's why I'm saying I think we've made a lot of different comments today. And that's why I want to deny this without prejudice saying

spend spend another couple weeks. Let's get this back on the agenda quickly. bring this back with a clear concise plan of what you want to do meeting with these requirements and some of the things that we've adjusted and presented. Again, I just we've talked a lot. Yeah, we have that right. We have um can Okay, thank you. That's that would be my motion. I appreciate that, Tyson. I'm just going to ask to address Jason's question. Could it be approved with some specific description of what planning commission desires tonight? Yes. Yes. It all depends on the motion if it's clear enough that the the applicant can comply with Okay.

Without this means it's not final, right? So, we're trying to see come back with a better plan. Okay. Jason saying, "Could we figure out the plan tonight?" It will be the same plan tonight that is tonight that we said. Yeah. Yeah. What was wrong with what we was talking about? What was wrong with that plan? Well, it just seemed like as we were talking there's you're not quite sure. Is this this? Is this this? Was I building this? I just want That's what I just want to come back. That's what I'm saying with that. It sounds a lot worse than what it really is. Okay. And that's what I'm saying. Come back with a clear concise. This building is exactly this. This is exactly this. this is exactly where this is going.

Rather than I don't want to be making the determination of where they're going to be pushing stuff or putting stuff. I' I'd rather you come back with a and hopefully we can do this within two weeks before the season growing season really kicks off. What do you need to know? Because we just put it all out there what we're doing. Are you putting a Are you putting a shed in the back corner? Are you putting a shed? I mean, what size are the shed? We Are they 10 by 10? Are they 12 10 x 12s? Where exactly are they going to be going? Yes, right there. That 10 by 10's going to be right there. That is the plan right there.

Sorry, I wasn't more clear. I read through the conditions as we I thought we had come to a consensus of what those conditions were. We agreed on the size and the placement. It may vary two or three feet, but we've already talked about staying outside of the setbacks, right? or within the regulated setbacks. Sarah, if I may, yes, it is possible also to table this and then bring it back because if you if you move to deny, then they lose all their fees and time spent on the on this application. Okay?

If you table, then we can bring it back in two weeks or a month after they've had a chance to address any concerns. But I think if you table, you ought to give them some very specific things that you're looking for that will help inform your decision and get to the yes. So that I I would so having that knowledge then Bill that I would revise that that we approve because I I would think sorry this is my legal knowledge I thought denying with prejudice would allow them then to come back say give me a an exact set plan not a conceptual drawing of I want the exact and but if that's if that makes them repay fees I'll withdraw my motion then the plan is right here what this is

okay so you've agreed to the conditions as I've read them Yes. Removing the condition number four. Do you want me to read them again? I think we're good. I think we're good. Are you okay if I try to take a motion? Absolutely. Go ahead.

I'm going to make a motion that in the consideration of the proposed use permit for the micro entrepreneurship allowing Vicky Lake and Kathleen Hunt to operate the homebased business consisting of a farm stand and sale of cottage foods products and non-food craft goods at 10 West Clark Street located in the RM7 district. that it be approved based on all the conditions that were already that were already reviewed by Sarah that you that you guys have agreed to and include the map that we just walked through with the location of where those approved buildings would be located to be the two stands. The the shed in the back would be up to where you guys decide that be not be specified that it has to be in that location. Thank you. Okay,

a motion. A second. Carrie will second. All in favor? I I Any opposed? Okay, motion carries unanimously. Ananimously. Thank you. Thank you so much for your I think it's a great addition to the neighborhood what you're doing down there. I've seen it. Thank you. Wonderful. But we just can't let it run wild. We have Exactly. And I understand it's reasonable. If it goes wild, we will close it down. At least we know we were doing it right.

Well, we wore you down. So, we we are um retired. We just want to sit out on the front lawn. Uh, I got you. And visit with the people that come. And I'm just curious, what months will it operate? Year round or We would That's why I wanted the second building because it's the farm stand it really struggles, but then the second building has like the um doll toys and stuff like that. The canned Amish. Yeah. The Yeah. Yeah. because we can't put even the on to get us through the winter

in a building without uh power. So, we have to find other things, other small things. And it gives us a chance to share the things that we're building. You kind of do a seasonal Christmas and Yes. season and then like it goes from it slows down between Christmas and then picks back up in February. and I've been doing it online, but it really would help because people are always saying, "I wish I could see this." And I'm, "Well, you can pick it up here and if you don't like it, you know, but if they could come and see it, it would be Thank you. Wish you the best of luck." Thank you.

Thank you very much. We're all done. Yep. I'll be in touch. Thanks, guys. Thank you guys very much. Appreciate your patience. Have a good night. We'll close item number two. Move on to agenda item number three. Geographic information systems presented by Gransville City GIS analyst city planner. Tayon. Sorry. Am I saying that right? Okay. You're going to have to remind me how to pronounce your last name. Okay. Her last name is Cole. Cole. Yeah.

Okay. Thank you. I'll remember next time. I promise. So um I work for transfer city as a GIS analyst and today I would like to introduce GIS city um transfer city GIS interactive map. So the objective of this project was to improve house staff and the public access city information and community development department mainly rely on the ta county GIS to access personal information while the county map provided basic personal data it doesn't include zoning information zoning information for grantsville was only available as a PDF and this made it difficult for step um to identify zoning especially when reviewing smaller parcels. Also sometimes need to switch between multiple sources to review the application and because of this review the property information required extra time and increase the risk of mclassification. And to improve accessibility, Grantville City GIS interactive map is available through this QR code and can be accessed on both desktop and mobile devices. And this map is organized into six categories. The utilities section included a storm drain, irrigation, soil and water infrastructure. Transportation layers include roads, ADA, bike lanes, street lighting, and traffic signals. And community development layers include process, zoning, subdivisions, and city boundary information. And the map also includes parks, garage, pickup areas, and additional reference layers such as stream and address points. And these are the examples I chose among

56 layers. This dev shows the personal and zoning layers combined into a single interactive map. And users can quickly identify zoning for individual purses without switching between different sources. And the map allows user to zoom, search addresses, and click purses to see property details. And for utility layer, water lines, fire hydrants and related infrastructure can be viewed together within city boundaries. Staff can correctly locate infrastructure and understand service coverage better. Yep. And this slide shows how the GIS map supports transportation and accessibility planning. The map includes roads, highway, traffic signals, traffic signs, and a ADA access infrastructure. And by viewing these layers together, staff can better understand roadway safety, accessibility, and overall transportation connectivity. And this map is not officially published yet, but we expect it to be available soon. And I would like to thank you, Michael, the city manager, and the community and development department and public works department for their support and assistance. And I would I would be happy to answer any questions.

I just say, "Wow, this is like where did you come from to do this for us? This is really cool." Very cool. And um come to Grantsville and do it. I talked to the mayor a little bit informally after our last meeting and under parks. It would be great to have one more bullet there in time to start overlaying our trails. We're trying to do I think that would be a great addition. We'd start with just some of the parking lots that we already have trail head two or three in the city and one trail I think in inner city start to build from there be great

it's a great suggestion but this is great work awesome work I I wonder also if the uh the sewer size the size of the pipe was indicated um and And I'm so excited you have the transportation details on there because I was really wondering about that. Oh, not because that's what I do for a living, but Wow, that is great. Like this. And if you zoom in, you can see how big it is.

Oh my gosh, that is a ton of work. That'll help the city so much. got your eight. Yeah, your 8 inch your 12 inch out there, Lincoln. Wow, super. Thank you for thinking all those little details through.

I'll add I T this is great. I I think having layers allows is going to allow us to be a lot more effective of what we're trying to do and see. And I think this is a great I will echo again. I think having if we can have tie-ins to what the the Tilla County general plan is for trails and different things that would actually be a helpful thing to see how that interacts or what the intent is as the county is trying to plan and other groups as far as how those inter how those would tie into the the planning that we already have for our master plan for Grantsville City. I think it'd be great to make sure we're incorporating that as as another layer that we could use. But other than that, I think this is great. It's stepping up to the 21st century and being able to look at how we can model this and and actually show people and have it accessible is great.

No, I agree. I'm just looking at this and dealing with like what I kind of do as a profession is the clarity here. It's phenomenal to have this and to not have to understand or try to understand where and hope you're guessing or hope that you're guessing right, but to see things in in clarity and precision and with the interaction that huge benefit for the city for developers and others interested in investing and coming to our cities is true. And it's been really hard. will help us update general plan and help us update housing with the transportation access determined and that is super. Thank you so much for your work. Thank you. Appreciate it. Good job.

Thank you. Such great talent. Okay, we will close that item. Oh, um so excited. Uh we'll move on to number four, approval of minutes from the January 20th, 2026 and the February 3rd, 2026 Planning Commission regular meetings. Did anybody have a chance to review those? I looked over I didn't see anything that stood out that was had no issues with not neither.

Okay, I meant to write these down, but I only sent myself an email. So, let me see if I can find it. I think on January 20th, and I think maybe I emailed them to me. I was going to email them to you, Nicole. Uh, the timestamp on the January 20th is I think is O2 and it's just missing that O. I think it was January 20th. Let me get to my notes. Sorry, for some reason that kicks me out. I had to get back in one sec. That's okay. Um, one of them. Okay. On January 20th, you said.

Yeah. And I can't remember. So, in the bold at the end, it says the meeting began at 72. Oh, and I think it might have to be O2. 702. Yeah. And then this says that this is them. It has my title as chair here, but then down in the next page, it has it as vice chair. I can't remember when we voted on that.

Apparently, I didn't email it to this email. I did not email my notes to this email. Let me see. Maybe I did. I did not two separate emails. Sorry about that. Um That's that one. There it is right there. Okay. It says vice chair. So, change that one. Okay.

But the content is perfect. Just those things. I didn't see anything that uh tweaked anything in my head as far as my memory of those conversations. So, I think you did great. You always did great in capturing those. Other than that, I'll entertain we'll entertain motions. We have to have a motion for each one separately. Yeah. I'll make a motion that we approve the January 20th, 2026 meeting minutes with the clerical additions that we just talked about.

I'll second that. All in favor? I. Okay. and a motion to approve the February 3rd, 2026 planning commission regular meeting minutes. Second. Thank you, John. Okay. All in favor? I I Okay, we'll close that item and uh move on to item five, report from city staff. So, um first of all, we want to excuse Shelby from being here tonight. Um she uh is at a conference uh conference convention something uh where the um Utah Asphalt Association

that was on my notes about um giving the city an award for our Matthew Street project. She got a she uh Shelby put us in for that. So we're super proud of her and she is at that uh dinner. She's probably done by now, but she's at that dinner receiving that award with uh the mayor and some other folks from the city. So, we're super proud of her and and the work that has been done on that, everyone that was involved in that with the public works and our engineers and it's was a great effort and u kudos to Shelby for putting us in for that. And uh she did a little video I think we saw that actually and uh that was I think what won it for us. that video.

Super proud of her and and all of the the folks involved with that and that effort. So, um that's where she is tonight. Um I would like to we talked about this, but I would like to uh schedule with you if you pull up your calendars right now over the next couple of weeks um an off Tuesday an off-week Tuesday meeting where we can get together in a in a maybe a less formal setting and uh have a training. Um, Tyson, it's going to depend on your schedule as well. So, if you wouldn't mind, um, really quick, just look into that. And, uh, I'd like to just get that nailed down right now if we could. Are we allowed to meet in something that's not a public meeting or

Oh, it would still be a public meeting. So, the public would be it would be open. A public work meeting. Um, but yeah, just a work meeting. Again, less formal. um more of a discussion and a a training type sit situation rather than with a a very formalized agenda and there would be no actions or anything taken. It was just uh yeah I would love that. Um what are we looking at? Uh we've got the 24th or the 10th of March. 24th might be a little short notice. I cannot do the 10th. Okay. Uh how about the 24th of March? How's that looking for everybody? I'd be open. Tyson,

that should work for me. Okay, let's pencil that in for the 24th. If there are major conflicts, let us know. But otherwise, let's uh plan on that. Again, um we'll start at about let's start at 6 if that's all right. And we'll bring in a little dinner um just so that it's a recognition of your extra extra meeting. You're looking for two hours. Yeah, probably two hours. Okay. March 24th, 6:00. I wouldn't I would I would hope for an hour hour and a half time frame, but it could push to two hours depending on how the conversation goes. So,

I'll say two hours, but hope for less than that. Okay, six is fine. I might not be here right at 6 depending on the traffic. Well, let's do 6:30 then. How about that? 6:30. Okay. This is a little more flexible for you. That would be great. Yeah. Okay. Um Tyson, does that work for you? Yes. Okay. Perfect. Okay. And then um if you know right now that you're available to go and would like to go to the the planning conference in April, I will be. You will be okay. You write Jason Hill. Jason Hill. Thank you. I'm sorry. I had to I've been called a lot of things. Jason's the best one.

Jason is the best one. That's the one you'll answer, too. I think I got this book at the last one. Yeah. And if folks aren't able to go, can we at least get them copies of this book? I wouldn't. That is that is the book. Is that the one from uh Craig Call? Uh yes, Craig Call. This is a great book. Was the first state property rights ombbudsman. He's also a just a genuinely good guy. Um likes to drive Model A's. and his wife both have one. She has a an old Model A pickup truck, which is kind of cool. Any road faster than that. Come on.

Super good guy. Um he's an attorney, but uh like some attorneys, he's still a good guy. Tyson, I'm looking at you. Still a good guy. Um love him.

And uh his son is actually John Call is the city manager, also an attorney. He's the city manager for North Ogden City and a good friend as well. Uh this is the book this is the book about planning and if you are looking for one book with which to understand what we do and how we do and why we do this is the one. Um he uh he breaks it down in a way that's accessible still informative and and um interesting but accessible for people like me who aren't lawyers and aren't the smartest in the world. Um, so, uh, we'll highlight her. We'll see if we can get copies for everyone.

Yeah, I actually, now that I think about it, I didn't get this from APA. I got this from the Utah Leagues of Cities. Either from the league or maybe that real estate conference down in I didn't go to that one. You didn't go to that one. They did a train for us and brought us all one. Oh, a while ago. Yeah. Yeah. It is the book and it's it's Yeah. So, but copies from 2024. She's going to go grab them. Oh, perfect. So, we've got a few we can give you right now. 24. Oh, that would be great. You guys will love this. Anyone else know that they'd be available? Um, Sarah, that's the um just in Salt Lake, right? No, it's in Bryce Canyon. Oh, it's the 8th through the 10th of April.

Of April. Thank you. Is early registration already closed or is it closing? It's not closed yet, but if you know now, well, let's get that going for you. If you know it's a no, too, for sure. Let me know. Yeah, I would be a No. I've got to be amazed. I've got to be a daughter of the volleyball tournament. I think I'd be able to go.

Okay. So, we'll put you down. Um, we'll get those things going for you. We've got a card now, too. Just do it. Um, and I think that's it for me. Do you have anything? Okay, Taylor, anything? Okay. Okay. Thank you, Bill. Put me tentative on that until I can We'll send emails out to everyone, too. So, we'll pick up the folks that aren't here tonight, but All right. I just got an RFP coming up that concentrate. Thank you. Thank you, Bill. Hey, we'll close item five and open item number six, open form for planning commissioners. Welcome, Gary.

Good job. Learned a lesson today. We just don't make somebody redo all their fees. So, thank you, Bill. Happy to be here. Happy to learn, happy to help the city hopefully stay on the trajectory the city council sets out for us and excited to be a part of this. Thank you for allowing me to be here. We're happy you're here. Can't wait for the more exciting meetings. This one was pretty long, but not so exciting. Longer than I thought we'd go on, but it's great. Jason, do you have anything?

Good discussion. I think we're more people. We've got more mindset here and this was a lot longer than I thought it would be for what we talked about tonight. But yeah, we'll get as we work through these kind of things, we'll get better at it. And I think there's a lot of things we just have to work through. So, well, it was clearly important to those. So, it's Yes, I appreciate that. Okay, we'll close that and move on to item seven, report from city council. Derek Dalton. Council member Derek Dson is here. Dylan in. Don't get used to me. Um, welcome Gary. Thank you.

Glad to see you here. And then Cameron, too. He's a good guy. I think I said in the last meeting that uh got a good group up here. So, looking forward to seeing what you guys do. Um, good job on the horsing. You know how I am about my animals. So, no, that was good. Good conversation, discussion. You guys, uh, put a lot of thought into it. So, um, let's see. So, last week we did the groundbreaking for Scenic Slopes. That was pretty cool. Bunch of all the little kids in the neighborhood came brought their own shovels and their mom or dad had brought them and so we got a big picture and broke the ground with the scenic slopes and they moved a lot of dirt. I I watch it here each day.

Yeah. And it's great. I mean, it's wonderful. It was fully funded. We got work. I thought we were applying for another grant. Yeah. So, just phase one. We're apply planning for the rest of the phases. So, just phase two closer on West Street. Is that phase two or is it towards like the Mormon Trail? Yeah, Mormon Trail. Okay. Because they've done nothing with that, but a huge part of it looks like more than just phase one. But yeah, we had meeting I had my first meeting with them and then uh they asked if they could start the next day. Really? Wow. The mayor said, "Let's do it." So, what's projected completion? Do we know?

I don't We have another meeting with them tomorrow, so we might get more information then. But it was cool. See the little kids with their hard hats on. It was way cool. And uh yeah, throwing dirt. It was actually the coldest day we've had all year until just now. But had a really good turnout though. Yeah, those kids looked great. Just fun there asking questions. No one threw dirt on us, so none of the kids. is all that top soil on on West Street or Mormon Trail. Is that for the park? Is that like a huge We're thinking about finding a way to use that. It came out of the uh the construction of Matthews as you know

and they moved it over there. So, it's really good top soil. It's quality stuff and so they want to use it on the park if if they can. It sure beats trucking it in from who knows wherever else they'll have to bring in some select fill material. Where' that prime soil come? It's been farmed on forever. It's great soil. Y so gone.

So yeah, we'll report back on that um after the meetings and then tomorrow night city council meeting. Um there's not too much on the agenda, but it should be a pretty interesting meeting. exciting and I'm sure there'll be a lot of citizens that show up and and make some comments. So, looking forward to listening to what they have to say and maybe some ideas they they bring to the table. I know we've been stressing about this quite a bit and was controversial subject.

Uh so, we build the wastewater treatment facility and we just bonded for it and now um we are doing a public hearing on a sewer rate increase. Um, we're not going to make any decisions tomorrow, just public hearing. And we're going to have an open house uh following week. Kind of get more people and we'll be able to make it tomorrow night there walking through everything. So, it kind of goes over as uh smoothly as as a sewer can r increase can go. So, so yeah, if you guys want to show up or watch online, it should be interesting. So,

hi Derek. I saw them published maybe something you published or something else. They show what the the proposed rates were going to do for the next whatever those 10 or 15 years. How does do we have any kind of comparison of what that looks like compared to other cities of similar size that are going into mechanical sewage treatment versus

I know there was some recently like over 50 million but so our we originally went was it 30 million or so 32 million and then with inflation and costs of all the different things it's gone up to um we don't even know for sure yet. Um, so we've kind of we just we did the bond for 50 million just kind of hoping that uh the the bids would come in lower than that and the rates that you saw those were based off the 50 million. So we're kind of just showing hopefully that's the high end. Hopefully it doesn't go over that but those would be like the high-end increases that we that we would have to have to do. Um

is it like a 20% increase? It it jumps like the first year like 55% 50% and then the next year it's like 30 or in the 20s I can't remember exactly. I've fiddled around with the numbers so many I can't even remember what was significant. Yeah, they gave us a a sheet we could play with the numbers and I've been it's all I do every night before I go to bed play with those numbers and try to see numbers what we can do. Yeah. So yeah. So tune in tomorrow. They're going to do a whole third from open pit slideshow and presentation system collaboration. Great. Wouldn't call a pit instead, but it's Yes. settling. Yeah.

Um and I think that's it. Is there anything you guys would uh like to take have me take back to city council?

I don't think so. I had something there, but then I lost it, so it's gone. Um, thank you for coming today. It's good to see once in a while. Yeah. Thank you guys again for all you do. I know it's a tough thank you guys. Okay. Um, we'll close that item and we'll entertain a motion to adjurnn. I'll make a motion to second. I think John got there first. All right. All in favor? I thank you all. Thanks, John.

You guys all