City Council - Regular Meeting

Sorry. Make this decision in a solid waste and the information keeps coming in. Emails every hour.

You're supposed to be instantaneous. Rob, come on. Aren't you a robot? I really try All right, we're going to go ahead and get started. And Kathleen, do we have somebody for the invocation? Yeah, I'd like to invite Margie Wilkkey up to the mic to say the prayer tonight.

Thank you. Dear heavenly father, creator of heaven and earth and all that dwell in them. We thank you for our beautiful city of Grants Pass. Thank you for those who work hard to make it a wonderful place to live. Forgive us where we have fallen short in keeping it so. We lift up sorry we lift up the mayor, public safety, and members of this council. Give them wisdom this evening as they make decisions on behalf of the people as well as those who live in the county. Help them to be mindful of their responsibility to be good stewards over the people's money that as that has been entrusted to them. Let their decisions keep our community a place where families and businesses can prosper and live in safety so they can enjoy life. We deny access to any spirits of contention, confusion or disruption. Father, we proclaim and declare that this meeting will be conducted in an orderly, respectful manner. that is this evening in accordance to your will. I ask all the we ask all these things in the precious name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen.

All right. Uh please rise for the flag salute and remove your covers if you got them. I aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. All right. Uh just do a quick roll call. We got uh Rob here. Uh Indra here. Rick here. Victoria here. Seth here. Eric is not present just yet. Uh Joel here. All right. And Kathleen here.

All right. We have a quorum. So before we get started into everything tonight, um I want to take a few moments and we want to give a special recognition for outstanding volunteerism for Ardan McConnell. Um a little bit of background with Ardan. She was born and raised in Grants Pass. She was honored in Grants Pass High School's Hall of Fame. From an Oregon pioneer family, great-grandfather, John McConnell, came west for the gold rush and stayed the first of five generations of McConnell's within southern Oregon. Her father, Sam McConnell, was a Grants Pass councilman, city councilman, and owned a popular palace place or palace cafe downtown for many years. Ardan restored the 1936 family home on Rogue River and got it placed in the National Register for Historic Places in the 1990s. Uh few of us put some words together for her to for her notable accomplishments. Um Ardan was a vice chair of the city's historical buildings and sites commission. She has served on the uh commission con continuously for 20 years helping to preserve and protect and promote our our local historic historical district. Ardan is responsible for getting GP city council meetings televised which has greatly increased public accessibility and transparency and a few momentable uh uh comedy moments as well too. Ardan is also responsible for getting the city to substain substantially lower fees charged to the public for fulfilling public information requests. Among her many other accomplishments on the HBSC has helping get Rogue Riverside Park listed on the National Register of historical places

by the National Park Services and helping to create a residential historic district in the city's northwest neighborhoods. Now, Ardan was unavailable to attend tonight, but hopefully she'll be watching the meeting or she can watch it afterwards since it is televised. Thanks to her. Here with us is her son. He's traveled down from Washington State to to be with her. And um and we want to acknowledge his presence. And if we could have you guys stand, I'd like everybody to give Ardan and their family for all their participation in Grants Pass a well ROUND OF APPLAUSE. THANK YOU VERY MUCH and wish her well for us.

Thank you. All right. So, we're going to start in tonight's agenda with interviews for the budget committee candidates. Yes, ma'am. Um, I wanted to uh make a motion to extend the date for applicants for this pool at the budget committee. A second. Okay. We have a mo to receive applications. No. To

to extend the date on applications because I think there's people that um uh might might have their applications in but they aren't being interviewed. So, I'm going to have to defer to JC because I know we are in a time crunch for this and we actually have applicants and we were going to be doing interviews as well as appointing people tonight. So, JC, can you weigh in on the motion to extend the deadline to accept applications?

Yeah. So, the uh orientation starts for budget committee on March 2nd. And so, we like to give people uh enough time in advance to let them know where they're supposed to be when they're supposed to be. and then budget committee obviously starts meeting in April and so being able to give them enough time to make those plans and arrangements um rather than last minute. Yeah, it sounds like there's a whole month still until the interview. So, we have four available positions on the committee and we have four applicants that will be seen tonight. How long was the application process open for?

I know that's a Diane question and she's not here tonight. Um but I want to say it was open for quite a long time. Okay. And then we also had a the application process last year where we did not fill two seats I believe. Okay. So there is a motion on the table and there was a second. So I guess I will run that across the dis. So, there's a motion on the table with a second to postpone budget committee meeting application timeline, which basically would would we even go forward with tonight? Well, I guess that'd be further discussion with council. If you're extending it, then you may not want to do the interviews today or you've got people here who have been scheduled to interview, you can interview and then if you get more applicants, you can interview them at a second opportunity.

Okay. So, let's just weigh in on the uh motion at hand. Um yeah, hold on one second. So just to reiterate, the motion is to extend the timeline for budget committee meeting applications with a second. Um further discussion of Rick. So I have a question of the four applicants tonight. If we as a council or individually only wanted to choose two out of the four, we have that option after the interviews and that could leave and then at that point the motion would leave the floor open for additional or for those people to be chosen in the future. Is that a a possibility? If council desires, they can appoint zero to four people this evening.

Okay. And then if we're not filling all the positions, it would automatically leave the applications open only if we passed the motion. Yeah, I would say if you only if you went through all four applicants tonight and only appointed us less than that four, then that you'd have to open up the application process again to fill that those vacant seats. Okay. Thank you. So, we'll proceed with the motion on the table. Any further discussion? Rob, can you repeat the motion?

Sure thing. The motion is to post or to extend the timeline for accepting applications to the budget committee meeting or sorry, budget committee with a second. Any further discuss qu any further discussion or questions? Joel. So, if the motion passes then what does the timeline look like?

Um, that would have to go into discussion with council. So, I'm sorry. So, if the motion passes, are we still going to go forward with interviews tonight and appoint uh whatever number we might feel appropriate to do tonight or does that cancel our approp um our process for um appointing people tonight? Other words, we can extend this if we don't appoint four, but if we appoint four, then there's no extension needed, right? Um but are we still going to go forward with the process of interviewing and appointing tonight even if this gets extended? So, as the way I understand it, the motion is limited to just extending the timeline for the application. It would have to be further discussion if this passes. Gotcha. Thank you.

Uh, Victoria,

I would uh ask Councelor Cone if you would entertain a friendly motion to open uh budget committee applications for a determinate time like one week. And uh then also in a second friendly amendment that we would go ahead and interview the people who were here tonight. Yes, I think that would be fine to extend it a week and uh interview tonight uh but also uh leave it open to interview the pe the people that might be have their applications in in a week. Aaron,

from a day perspective, uh, one of the reasons why we left two positions open last year was we were in a situation where we're getting close to actually having our first budget meeting and we didn't have applications. So, we decided not to fill those positions because we didn't want someone coming in after the process has started. uh in order to meet that timeline on when we're going into the budget. If we left it open for another um week, week and a half with applications closing on the 13th if this is where council wanted to go, you would then we could then potentially schedule for interviews on the meeting of the 18th where you would interview and appoint like you're scheduled for tonight. If you do not appoint all four or you appoint less than that tonight.

Okay. So clarification on the motion is to extend the timeline to accept applications for budget committee members with um the amendment of a date certain on that one week as well as proceed forward with the interviewing of four candidates on the table tonight. So the question I still have is okay. Any further discussion on that? Indra I just have a couple questions. So when when did it when did the deadline close for the applications? Julie.

Yes. We actually had two advertisements go out. The first one went out November 24th and it closed on January 2nd. And then we had another one. One moment. Um, that went out January 6th and sorry, there's a lot of folders here. It went out January 6th and then it closed on January 23rd. So, we've been advertising for this since November. Okay. And do we have applications that came in after the 23rd?

I'm not sure. I can go through Dian's files. That's not something I handle, but I could look through because it sounds like we know of people that wanted to apply but didn't get it in is what it sounds like. Okay. I'm not opposed um I'm not opposed to extending it a week out if we have better I mean not better. I I'm glad that the applicants applied, but it would give us more to to look at to have a bigger choice, which I think is always good. So, I'm not opposed um to that as long as we do interview tonight, which we are. Uh Rick,

so I just want to confirm if the council wants to, we can after the interviews, we can vote, we can approve one or two or more people accordingly. Is that correct? That is still a question at large. Okay. Well, I would be The motion doesn't cover that. Okay. Did the amendment co Did the amendment cover that? No. The amendment covered um interviews tonight. Okay. Seth. Yeah. I would only be supportive of this if we can interview and appoint tonight. Um if there's open space, then we can extend it.

Okay. So the motion on the table as it's been stated is to extend the time period for application acceptance an additional week as well as interview the four applicants through an interview process tonight. That is the extent of the motion with a second. Any further discussion? Well, yeah. So it's it's clear that I'm unclear and it seems other counselors are unclear. Um, if this motion passes, um, we at least myself and some others say they don't want to kill the potential for appointing people tonight. So, um, I guess I'll go back to the person who made the motion. What What is What is your intent?

Yeah, I can I can make amendment to that that I would like to extend it for a week and then include the people in the voting process that uh that we would potentially be still interviewing. Okay. So, is it your intent that we not not make the mo not make the vote tonight, but interview the people that are here? It's I don't want to waste their time. I want them to be able to interview um but also include the ones that might have applied um within this next week.

So, I'm sorry. So to clarify the motion is the way I'm understanding it is the motion is to extend the applicant time period an additional week interview the four applicants that are in house tonight and no further action would happen tonight. So we would have to push um actually appointing budget committee members to a date certain after the applicants additional applications would come in and additional interviews would have to happen. Is that how Yeah. your motion plays out? Yes. Yes. Okay. And there is still a second on that after all the amendments. Yes. All right. Seth, did you have something?

Indra. Yes. While I'm not opposed to having more potential applicants, I guess my concern would be those who already applied and were interviewed and thought we would decide tonight. And would that put off people from applying to committees? Um because they don't know what we're going to do when the application process closes. They think, well, there might be extra weeks. So that's my only concern. I think it is something to think about, Kathleen.

Well, I think if uh we voted tonight, then people that would potentially still apply would not even do it because they'd think it's not worth it. it's already happened. So, I think that um there are I believe that there are applications that miss the deadline that are ready to be interviewed, but they weren't included in this tonight. So, I'm just making appropriations for that to happen. Further discussion, Seth?

Yeah, I mean, I think the deadline's the deadline, right? That Julie said that this has been out since November. I mean, that's plenty of time to have an application in. So again, I'll only be supportive if we interview tonight and we can appoint tonight. If we have open spaces after that, then great. But other than that, I'm not in support. Okay.

Okay. To reiterate the motion so everybody is fully clear, the motion on the table is to extend the budget committee application deadline an additional week, interview the four applicants who have submitted already tonight, and nothing else happens tonight. Rick, did you want to add in?

Well, I I guess I would like when after we do the interviews, I would still like the opportunity to vote on the four applicants that have are before us tonight. But if we only elect to then I think at that point we would leave it open for new applications. Thank you Rick. Just to reiterate the motion again. The motion is to extend the timeline additional week to accept applications for the budget committee interview for applicants in the house tonight and no further action tonight. So no appointing budget committee members tonight.

So let me just try to clarify. Go ahead. So, um just to clarify then, it's my understanding that if we um if people vote yes on this motion, then we cannot appoint anyone tonight. Anyone who wants to vote no, anyone who wants to appoint someone tonight or all four potentially would have to vote no on this motion. Correct. Thank you. Any further discussion? Seth,

can you make an amendment to appoint a point tonight and if there's open space then we'll extend it? Yeah, I guess that's fine. I mean, I think I think it would be great to wait and include the ones that might still want to be part of this. Uh, so that was just my intention. It' be fair for everybody to vote all at the same time on all the applicants. Okay. Well, you're trying to after extending the Yeah, you're trying to judge judge the support of all eight council members or seven council members that are present. So, are you extending your motion even further?

Yes. Okay. So, to clarify your motion, so basically we're just kind of back to square one actually. But the motion on the table is to extend the budget committee application timeline an additional week. Interview four candidates that are in house tonight. Council has the ability to appoint all four council members or all all four committee members or Well, that's why I wanted to wait with the vote because that's kind of weird. Well, then stick with your original. Yeah, it would be great to be able to just do that, vote on them all at the same time.

Okay, so I I would I would go back to your previous motion. Correct me if I get this wrong. Your previous motion would be to extend the application deadline additional week for the budget committee interview four applicants in house tonight with no further with no appointments tonight. That was okay. So that is your motion on the table. We have a second still. Any further discussion before we have a roll call vote? Joel?

Well, I I um like to just have one vote and have all the pool of applicants available. Um um it doesn't seem to me to have phase one and phase two. U that that sends a a poor message to anybody that's not selected in phase one. that's and and that's qualified. Um, so I I I think they all need to be evaluated at the same time. My thoughts. Okay. So, the motion is on the table and everybody's clear with the motion. We're going to go to a vote because we have one applicant that's we're pushing their timeline at this moment in time. Um, Indra, oh, sorry, Kathleen.

Yes. Indra, yes. Joel, yes. Victoria, yes. Seth, no. Rick, no. Rob, no. Holy crap. Yes. Four to three. Yes. Oh, sorry. I I I with track my holy crap cuz I actually counted wrong. Okay, so it passes tonight. So, we will go into um we will extend the timeline an additional week for acceptance of applica applications and we will proceed with interviews with no appointments tonight. With that, do we does he still have time?

Yeah. Okay. Sorry. Thank you. Um we're going to call up uh Nicholas Stark first because he has a and you have something good to go to. Where are you going to go to? Oh, I I uh volunteer on Wednesday nights at my church's youth group. So, I have a bunch of freshman boys to corral. Excellent. Excellent. Supposedly, what we'll do is we'll start out here. Give us a quick little tiny synopsis on why you want to be in a budget committee meeting and then counselors will ask you a few questions if that's okay.

Yes. And I will try not to cough the entire time. Apologies for that. Um, so basically just I'll give you a little bit of my background. I was born and raised here in Grants Pass. Um, went to Hidden Valley High School. um graduated in 2016 and then went off to college in Virginia where I spent seven years doing college uh and then working for the American Legislative Exchange Council as really a tax and fiscal policy expert um for state budgets specifically. So my my experience in u doing this sort of thing, analyzing budget documents, going through knowing what the best practices are for free market limited government, you know, best stewardship of best stewardship of taxpayer dollars. uh it's it's quite extensive. Um I I personally I I'm a priority based budgeting um individual. So basically asking questions like what is the role of government? What are the essential services? Um how will we know if a government's doing a good job? What should all this cost? And then uh when cuts and if cuts need to be made, how do we properly prioritize that? So, um, I I wholeheartedly believe in in committees like this to be able to advise you as as the council to best steward, uh, how how you can best steward the dollar, the tax dollars that that you guys receive as a city of Grants Pass. Um, so really that's my heart behind being being on this committee and wanting to to be in this role. So,

thank you. Um, bring it back to council for questions. Uh, Victoria, uh, what is, uh, one or two issues that you find are really important and pressing for the city right now?

Yeah, the biggest one is public safety. Um, I I think that we've got to be able to best fund public safety. I mean, that's that's how the citizens actually interact best with government is through the public safety sector. um you know the for for me it's it's best funding it but it's also making sure that that it's effectively funded that we're we're spending it on on programs that actually do put the public safety of of uh citizenry ahead of you know other priorities. Um I also think that one of the issues I don't know that this is talked about enough is is what can we actually separate ourselves from from the state and the requirements of the state. there are certain things that we have to do by law with the funds that the state gives us, but there's also things that I don't I don't believe that we necessarily need to take dollars from the state for. Um, so that's kind of another piece. I know that's a little out there, but uh that's another thing that I constantly consider. Uh, for context, I currently work in state politics um with an organization that that um really is seeking to influence the conservative movement. So,

thank you. Any further questions, Kathleen? So, uh, Nick, what is the greatest asset that you can bring to the city of Grass Pass budget committee?

Yeah, I think it's my extensive experience looking at budgets and having the the the mindset of stewarding taxpayer dollars first, effectively stewarding that. Um so the the research that I've been able to do um looking at comprehensive you know financial reports all these sorts of things uh finding little you know problems in state budgets uh is something I've also had experience with. Um so really it's just it's that extensive experience of the the research the analysis and and sometimes the commentary on it as well. So being able to translate that into looking at the the city's budget and then advising you guys with that.

Seth? Yeah, I appreciate you playing, Nick. Um, I was just curious, is there anything that, um, you know, based on last year's budget, what we decided to move forward with that you would you would have changed? Not anything that particularly comes to mind directly. Um, yeah. No, Rob, Seth covered my question. I was actually going to ask, have did you look at last year's budget and uh what was your takeaway from it? Yeah, I I'm realizing that I should have. Um so I'll admit that. Um and my my intent is to is to look at that and uh yeah, know more extensively in the future.

Well, thank you for your honesty. Any further questions? All right. Uh I'll leave you a couple minutes with partying. Oh, we have question. Sorry, got to raise your hand quicker. Go ahead, Victoria. So uh but you have had experience with budget. So uh if you I just wanted to give you the opportunity to to describe that a little bit more if you'd like to.

Yeah. So some of the I'll just talk about the research that I that I did previously with the American Legislative Exchange Council. The um or ALEC is the acronym. I'm going to use that quite a bit because it's a lot easier. Uh so my my research at Alec primarily focused on tax and fiscal policy within state budgets. And what we would do is every year one of the one of the reports that we would put out was an analysis of state pension plans and looking at how fun how they're funded eval you know doing um actuarial actuarial accounting to to estimate what is the unfunded liability of the states actually apart from what they actually give. So, you know, going through the the annual comprehensive financial reports that states put out to look at these different, you know, variables and and doing the math to calculate all that. Um, we would also do that with bonded obligations, uh, which you can find in the same documents for a lot of states as well as, uh, other post-employment benefit liabilities that that go to public workers as well. So, that's just a a snapshot of that. Um, other things we would look at, you know, what does what do states spend on? uh you know, how can they they reallocate some of the the tax dollars when you know, states were looking at tax increases, that sort of thing. Uh what could they cut back? What could they scale? That sort of thing. So,

thank you. And last call. Any further questions? Do you want a couple parting words? I just want to say thank you. All right. Well, thank you for your time, sir. All right. Uh next applicant, uh we'll just go opposite list. Heidi n here. Do we have Heidi? Nope. Okay. Uh Nancy list here. Go ahead and give us a little opening statement and then we'll ask you a few questions if you don't mind.

Okay. Well, um, this is the second time I've applied for the budget committee. I replied last year and, uh, I think that I could have added some value to the budget committee last year. Uh, if you'll see from my application, I usually say that I was a financial analyst for IBM for almost 32 years. So, I wanted to expand on that a little bit because a lot of people don't really know what that means. And IBM afforded me the opportunity to change jobs about every two years. So I started in basic accounting, general accounting, did expense accounting, did cost accounting. I did pricing. I priced laptops all the way up to mainframe computers. Um, I worked for manufacturing divisions. I worked for sales divisions. I led organizations of five people up to hundreds of people. I managed budgets of um over hund00 million of expense. Had $4 billion of revenue targets. So these were all um uh opportunities that I had within IBM and it all kind of falls under that category of financial analysts. But it was actually a much broader opportunity than that. And I really enjoyed 32 years of working for them. Uh when I retired and moved here, it was to be with my grandchildren. Um but I didn't stop working right away. I started um developing courses on accounting for the small business development center. And I taught people who were starting business or wanted to improve their skills. I taught them how to do basic accounting, how to pay their employees, how to develop and read financial statements so they knew if

they were making money or not. And that really uh that brought all of those skills that I learned in the commercial world into a nonprofit and a a public sector world. So I I learned a lot from doing that. And then since I've been here, uh, I've been president or treasurer of a number of different organization, nonprofit organizations in town. And I'm currently on the board for the Josephine Community Library Foundation, which is of course another nonprofit raising money for the new library. So, um, how does all of that play together? uh in putting together your budgets, you do the same thing that I did in the commercial world. You started out just recently doing your strategic plan. Now you're going to be there's going to be an operational or a tactical plan developed which says how do you take that strategic plan and make it happen this year and every year that you in the future. um you're going to set up budgets and goals and you're going to track the act actuals and report on those um monthly and quarterly and that's that's what I did. That was my experience and that's the value the skill set that I would bring to the budget committee.

Excellent. Thank you. Uh bring it back to council for any questions. Kathleen. So, I'm curious, what is the most important financial issue facing the city and why is it important?

There's I I would put it under the heading of economic development because there are so many things wrapped underneath that. Uh we need to find ways to sustain uh the businesses that we currently have and support the businesses that we currently have in town. But we also need to find ways to bring new businesses into town. I mean, losing Dutch Bros headquarters was a significant blow to the to the city, and we need to find ways to bring companies into uh our town. And that supports our tax base, which enables us then to do all of the other things that are in your strategic plan um and are very important to the city. Does that answer your question? Thank you. Any further questions?

I'll just piggyback on that one. Go right ahead, Kathleen.

Um, what other financial issues face our city? Do you from your perspective? Um, again, it all kind of wraps up underneath economic development, but we certainly have um the concerns with the homelessness and how the city's going to support that. that was $1.2 million this year that I don't think the city was really planning on spending that way. Uh we have uh the salaries the salary negotiations that have been going on almost a year now with the um not the negotiations themselves but trying to understand and plan. Uh that's an a a big impact to the city long term is how are you going to fund that? And um and of course we always talk about um safety and law enforcement and those are probably the biggest areas where the city's going to have continue to have concerns and have to figure out how to fund it.

Thank you. Any further questions? Rob? Yeah, thank you for uh being persistent and applying again this year because your application looked noteworthy last year to me. So, thank you for

another shot. Um so you've identified um a few areas that um are of course areas of concern and um what uh and and and people very eloquently can do that during this interview process but when it really boils down to it there was some controversy last year um about what actually is the role of the budget committee and do you have any thoughts on that? You all as part as the council sets the direction the strategic plan and gives direction to the staff. Um the staff supports you in developing the budgets and making sure that they can be carried out effectively. The budget committee is there to uh make sure that um the budget all ties together, that nothing's been overlooked and to help you all uh understand and it's just another set of eyes to make sure that everything is covered. uh it would it would not be the place of the budget committee to make recommendations on changing the budget. That's way too far down the road to be able to do that. But hopefully there would be some discussions about possibly some alternative ways to look at things.

Thank you. Any further questions? All right. Uh you want to leave us with a few parting words?

Um well I hope to be part of the budget committee. I think I have a lot of value to bring to it. Uh there's not a lot of people who are trained to sit down and really look at the volumes of information that uh are part of the budget or who enjoy doing that. And unfortunately I guess I could say I'm one of the people who like to look at numbers. Uh, numbers tell a story. They tell you where you're where you're succeeding and where you have problems and where your successes can lie. So, I enjoy doing that and I think it would be um uh of value to the committee to have me on there. Thank you.

Thank you, Nancy. All right, we have one last applicant. Um, Tom Good evening.

Go ahead and give us a little blurb on why you want to be on the budget committee, sir. Um, well, I was, uh, watching the announcement of vacancies on the budget committee. And when the first announcement came out, um, I really didn't think I would apply, but then I saw that the application deadline was extended. And when it was extended, that was a clue that the city didn't have enough applicants for the four positions. So, I decided to apply and I applied and got my application in on time. Um, it's a couple of pages. Um, I don't want to read it all, but I'd be glad to answer any questions about it. Um my perspective is uh first of all as an academic economist uh there are a number of concepts that are helpful opportunity cost uh the time value of money uh looking at product life cycle costs and I think a lot of those are quite relevant to analyzing uh the budget also as a local investor and property owner u additional fees and local taxes get magnified uh through the ten the tenants who rent uh those apartments um and also as a landlord there are financial implications um of user fees and uh property taxes um also my family is here I have two grandsons that are uh starting their careers here in Grants Pass so I'm very interested in the relationship between the public sector the private sector through the budget. And I just want to add one more thing. Uh fund accounting is such an esoteric science and over the years I've learned a lot from Mr. Rally about how to read budgets and how to

understand fund accounting. Um it's not common. It's u something that in order to be effective in the budget committee, you really need to master um at least the minimum of understanding of budget um and fund accounting. So I'd be glad to answer questions. Thank you, sir. Any questions from council Rick? Thank you, Tom, for applying. Um, could you elaborate? You were on the budget committee many years ago. Could you elaborate? You've already touched the subject a little bit, but can you elaborate what you learned and what you bring from that original exposure?

Um, yeah, a couple of things. One is that there's a really fine line often between policy and resource allocation questions. And it's clear that through strategic planning uh the council sets policy. The budget committee then uh reviews the goals and looks at the resources that are available and makes recommendations regarding the allocation of those resources in pursuit of the policy established by the council. That there's a fine line there that is sometimes very difficult. uh and I think it's important to keep that in mind but also be a little bit flexible in having the uh budget committee participate in uh review and analysis of the implications of council policy decisions.

Thank you. Any further questions? Uh Rob. Yeah, Tom, it's it's clear from working with you in the past that you're uh you have a pretty uh a pretty broad understanding of subject matter, and I'm just wondering when you said that originally uh you weren't going to reapply this year or you weren't going to apply again, can can you uh give us any insight as to what your thinking was and why you changed your mind?

Uh well, I I changed my mind primarily because I think I I may be able to contribute to the process. So, I I think there's some value added that I could bring. Um, I wasn't originally going to be uh an applicant because I've been so busy. I mean, just that simple. I needed to think about how to cut back on some of my commitments and I've done that now. So, I feel like I have time uh to devote to this process. Thank you. Okay. Any further questions? All right. Thank you. um if you want a couple parting words.

Um just thank you for the opportunity to be interviewed and I look forward to working on the budget committee in the future.

Thank you. All right. I want to thank all of our applicants that were um made themselves available for a gruesome interview tonight. Um thank you very much. We will be extending the application deadline another week and then we will schedule interviews from any applicants received as well as uh do budget committee appointments at a later date. But thank you very much for your participation tonight. Okay. Next on the agenda is a public hearing. Um, I want to open at this time I will open a public hearing to consider a customer dispute between in regards to the franchise agreement between city of Grants Pass and Republic Services. We will begin the hearing with a staff report followed by public comment and then the matter will be discussed and acted upon by the council. Is there anyone present who wishes to challenge the authority of the council to consider this matter? Seeing none, do any counselors wish to abstain from participating in this hearing or declare a potential conflict of interest? Seeing none, in this hearing, the decision of the council will be based upon specific criteria. All testimony and evidence must be directed towards those criteria. The criteria which applies in this case are noted in the staff report. It is important to remember if you fail to raise an issue with enough detail to afford the council and the parties an opportunity to respond to the issue, you will not be able to appeal to the land. Oh, actually that part doesn't actually apply to this one. I apologize. Uh we're going off on a on a on a tangent here. Um now we will proceed with a staff report.

Thank you, Mayor and Council. This is a little bit different. Um, what we have before you tonight is a public hearing to resolve a complaint, a customer complaint between a citizen and republic services in regard to the implementation of the franchise agreement. So, just a bit of background, the franchise system in Oregon gives government agencies the right to give exclusive rights to provide certain services to their communities. Solid waste franchise rules were codified in the mid late mid to late 1980s as major changes were made requiring cities to provide additional recycling options. Solid waste franchises provide agencies with better tools to provide cost-effective environmentally compliant services. The city however has had its franchise agreements in place prior to 1985. They've been updated as service needs or regulations have changed. The benefits of the system have included clear points of responsibility, consistent service standards, streamlined collection, efficiency of scale, um reduced road wear and tear, enhanced safety, reduce noise and traffic, and equal operational standards. The franchise agreement give the franchises exclusive rights to the collection and transportation of solid waste. Limited exemptions do exist within the agreements but do generally preclude the transportation of solid waste for profit by any business in the franchise area. The agreements also specify dispute resolution procedures when a customer feels that the services provided are not in accordance with the agreement or that the franchisee is not acting in accordance with the terms of the agreement. So next in your slide is the customer dispute resolution. Um it is a pretty simplified process. The the agreved citizen will try to resolve that issue with the franchisee.

If that dispute remains unresolved, that citizen may petition the city in writing for a hearing on the complaint. And that is in your council packet, I believe, is attachment one. I'm pulling that from memory. If I get it wrong, it's one or two. Um and the city shall have the authority to determine whether the complaint is unfounded. And that's where we are today is is for you to hear that complaint. Um if we get to this and either party still remains um unhappy with the decision, the next step would be for the agrieved party to then ask to go to an arbitration hearing through a state arbitrator. So Mr. Kurpatre is here tonight. He has been prohibited from using the Merlin Transfer Station by Republic Services due to repeated violations of the franchise agreement. Mr. Kirkpatrick operates two businesses which he contends fit current exemptions in the franchise agreement which should void the prohibition um of his ability to utilize transfer stations. The two businesses are the two guys one truck which is advertised as a junk removal service and thrift right here which is advertised as a charity thrift store. In his complaint he cites two exemptions 2.81 and 2.87 87 and that's what we're here to determine tonight. Exemption 2.81 allows for the collection, transportation, and reuse of repable cleanable discards by privatal charitable organizations regularly in employed in such activity. So to qualify for that exemption, Mr. Kirkpatrick must demonstrate that the businesses are private charitable or that he is a private charitable organization and that the materials being collected and hauled are repairable cleanable discards intended to for reuse um not just solid waste.

Same top line exemption 2.87 is uh as Mr. Kirk Patrick has also said demonstrated um that one is very specific that a contractor registered under OS71 for hauling waste created in connection with the demolition, construction or remodeling of a building or structure or in connection with land clearing and development. Such waste shall be generated by the contractor and that's really the key word. The waste shall be generated by the contractor in connection with the contractor's construction site and hauled and equipment owned by the contractor. So again, to qualify for this exemption, Mr. Kirkpatrick would need to prove that he is a registered contractor and all of those are in your countful packet. His he is a registered contractor and all of the other documentation. the waste is being hauled was created by demolition, construction or remodeling of a building structure or in connection with the land clearing and development and that that waste was generated by Mr. Kirkpatrick in connection with those activities and the waste is being hauled in his equipment. So your role tonight is to hear testimony from Mr. Kirkpatre and Republic Services and determine if the complaint is supported or if Mr. Mr. Kirkpatre is operating in violation of the franchise agreement. Mr. Kirkpatrick will be given 10 minutes to present their case to you um followed by questions from you to Mr. Kirkpatre followed by a 10-minute presentation from Republic Services also followed by questions from you and then we will open that up to public comment and then Mr. Kirkpatre will be provided five additional minutes at the end of the hearing to kind of close up and give you a final statement. And with that, um, that is the end of my staff report.

Uh, looks like we have a question for you, Rob. Thanks, Jason. So, going back to slide eight in the white part at the bottom. Yes.

Uh, the collection. So, an exemption would be for the collection, transportation, and reuse of repairable or cleanable discards by private private charitable organization regularly engaged in such activity. So that would mean that um there be an exemption for someone who fits that description to collect these items. So I guess the question would be for me um once someone has collected those items, whatever they're going to do with them, whether they're going to try to resell them or give them away or whatever their plan is, there's probably some period of time where it's taking up too much room at their their store or their yard or whatever it is. uh what are they to do with those items after the they've collected these they've collected these exempt items or they're they're they've taken advantage of this exemption. They've collected these items. Uh what's the next step if they have no use for these items? Um what what are they supposed to do with them?

I can only speak to how say Salvation Army or Goodwill Industries operates with these items. That's kind of what that exemption was written around um is the thrift store, the 503C, the charitable organization. They throw those items in the dumpster in the back of the store. So when you say a dumpster, that would be something that's then collected by the franchisee. Yes, sir. That would be your understanding of what those organizations might do. Yeah. Thank you. I guess we got a couple other questions. Uh Rick,

thank you. Jason, can you go to slide three? So, the franchise system in Oregon is a solid waste franchise the norm from most of the cities in the state of Oregon. That is my understanding. Yes. Okay. Thank you. Okay, I think we're good. Any fur? Oh, we got one more question. Indra.

So you mentioned they have dumpsters in the back of the stores to put them in. So which they pay for to the company, but when when you bring the waste in a truck to the company, you still pay for it. So do you know um are the rates much more to get the dumpster rather than bringing a truckload directly to the dump? I'm not sure I'm I know how to answer that question. Um, you know, because service rates vary depending on the size of the dumpster, the frequency of the pickups. So, there's a lot of variability there. It probably is slightly less expensive to drive that um to the transfer station, but the franchise rules in general require you to only hold uh hall waste that you have generated. So that's kind of where the the crux of the the dispute on the franchise is is coming to. But I didn't answer your question because I'm not quite sure where that I got there. And you mentioned two of the bigger thrift stores, but we have a lot of smaller ones. Do they all have dumpsters?

The other Yeah. The other part of it is you have to be a 503C charitable organization to be allowed to haul these in the exemption. So just a thrift store will not necessarily qualify you for that exemption. If you have qu questions about rates, I'm sure that that could be addressed to um the Republic service when they

and I think a lot of these will also come out through the presentations by both parties. But I I think um yeah, the really the key piece there is it a not for-p profofit um and are they hauling just the clean repable materials for resale? So is there anything so like estate sales they go in and they have reusable they sell what they can and they have junk. Do they haul them to the dump? What do the estate sale companies do? I would assume if they're operating within the franchise they're having a dumpster delivered and they're filling the dumpster. Okay.

Okay. It looks like we've sufficed that. Um, now we will have the complaintant. Um, you have 10 minutes for your presentation. Please start with uh stating your name and occupation and go for it.

Hi. Uh, Connor Kirkpatrick. Uh, two guys, one truck and thrift right here. Uh, just to answer a couple of the questions. Uh, first of all, I have a dumpster at my thrift store from Republic Services. I fill it up every week and it gets emptied every week. Uh, part of the issue is when I put a couch into that dumpster, they take it out and then in the morning I go out and the couch is on the side of the dumpster and I can't get rid of a couch or a recliner. Um, anyway, so I have a dumpster from them. I I utilize their dumpster service, you know. Uh, uh, also another point, uh, collection of the solid waste happens at the transfer station as well. they are collecting it there to for then final disposal at the landfill. Nothing gets disposed of at the transfer station. Um it's it's getting further collected there. So I'm trying to stay within and help them collect the solid waste and take it to be disposed. Um I'm not questioning the franchise system. Um, I understand the need for uh low trash prices and you know, one company to serve districts specific areas and provide that curbside trash collection. Um, I'm fitting within the exemptions. Um, so I'm here to issue a formal demand that this city council fulfills its statutory duty to enforce the 2022 franchise agreement in its entirety, including the exemptions. For years, Republic Services has maintained an unlawful ban against me, my small business, my and my nonprofit. This is not a request for a favor. I'm not asking for permission to operate my business. It is a demand for the rule of law. Republic Services is practicing selective enforcement and retaliation against those of us who highlight their service failures and environmental record. By allowing this ban to continue

on city-owned property, the city is participating in willful negligence. Republic claims, "I am an unauthorized hauler. Your own contract states otherwise." It was just brought to my attention today that there is another exemption that I qualify for. Section 2.89 explicitly exempts persons engaged in property cleanup for preparing a property for sale or abating nuisances. I am a licensed contractor and a nonprofit leader doing exactly that. Why is this exemption vital? Because section 3.1.6 of Republic's contracts says they won't go into garages, upstairs, or through gates. They refuse the hard labor and then they ban the only people like me who are willing to do it. This creates a predatory environment for our seniors and disabled neighbors. If an elderly resident can't move a mattress or a couch to the curb and Republic won't go get it and the city lets Republic ban me from helping them, where does that waste go? This is a violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act and the Public Trust. Republic may point to when I removed cardboard from the parking lot of Bath & Body Works on their opening day. Republic failed their customer, leaving that customer with a nuisance in their parking lot on opening day. I abated that nuisance and I brought that cardboard to a Republic Services cardboard dumpster at my store. Now, let's talk about who is actually doing the work of environmental stewardship. While Republic is under DEEQ investigation for methane leaks 200 times the legal limit at Coffin View, my nonprofit, Thrift Right Here, and my company, Two Guys, One Truck LLC, have been fulfilling statemandated recycling goals for free. In the p in the last

year, I've diverted 952 mattress units from our landfill. That's 52,360 pounds, over 26 tons of bulky waste that did not take up space in our regional facility because I stepped up where Republic stepped back. It is a flagrant misuse of rights granted for a super emitter monopoly corporation to ban a local nonprofit and a licensed contractor that is singlehandedly managing 26 tons of waste diversion for this community if they are under deeq enforcement action and state level environment for state level environmental violations and they are refusing to participate in statemandated recycling programs. Why are we letting them dictate policy on our city-owned land? You have the power and the duty to end this tonight. Section 8.3.5 gives you the inherent and statutory right to act in the best interest of the people and to prevent flagrant misuse of this franchise. I have provided you with a draft order. It demands Republic lift this ban within 48 hours. If they refuse, you have the right under section 5.8 8 to terminate their lease and take the facility back. If the tenant won't follow the landlord's rules, they don't get the keys to the building. This is the people's facility, not Republic's private monopoly. I have my OS contractor's license. I have a 501c nonprofit corporation. The contract is clear. The data is clear. I'm demanding that you protect our seniors, protect our environment, protect the integrity of your own contracts. Order Republic to lift the ban tonight. Thank you. Would you like me to go through any of these sections? I highlighted a few sections of the agreement here. We can go through it together since I have a few more minutes left. Or we can go into the repairable cleanable discards and what

is a discard and at what point is waste generated? Um when I deem that I can't hold on to something any longer to sell it, that's when the waste is generated. That means I tried to reuse it. I tried to rehome it. At that point when I deem that those discards are beyond point of sale, that is when the waste is generated. The waste isn't generated when I put it in my truck. The waste is generated when I deem and that is me generating that waste. And all that point of repairable cleanable discards and all those other exemptions don't even matter because exemption 2.89, Jason, can you put exemption 2.89 on the screen? Are you able to do that? So everyone can see that exemption as well. I know you guys all have in your packet.

Yeah, to be quite No, they don't because you only turned that in today and I gave it to them was was only related to the two previous exemptions. 2.89 was not part of your original complaint.

And uh you guys all have that in front of you. Um uh I listed I I gave you guys all a uh a copy of the full exemptions. And uh also it is concerning that uh the staff report while my my complaint only listed those two exemptions, shouldn't the staff report have noted that other exemption? Or uh how come any of the multiple times I went to multiple solid waste agency meetings? Why was that other 2.89 exemptions not brought to my attention when I went to the solid waste agency meetings in March or in August when I presented at the solid waste agency meeting? And actually in August when I presented the solid waste agency said that we did need to make changes and something needed to change. And then in September they heard from the haulers and then they decided we have these exemptions. We don't need to change anything because we have these exemptions. And that's fine. Just honor the exemptions. And uh I guess uh I'll just uh defer my last two minutes if I need it at the end. Any questions or is it question time? If if you're done, you can take more time if you want. If you're done, um we we can get some questions from council.

Okay. Yeah, I'll take I can take questions. All right. Any questions from council? Uh Kathleen and then Rick. Kathleen. Yeah, I hear your frustration, Connor. It's loud and clear. Um I want to address something a little bit more simpler and it was maybe the charitable aspect of your business. Do you earn income with your business? Um, are you talking about as a licensed contractor or my nonprofit thrift store? Your nonprofit thrift store? No. None. No, I don't earn any income from my nonprofit thrift store. No. Okay. Uh, further questions, Rick.

Thank you, Connor. So, for your nonprofit and the store that you have, do you actually have employees there or or is it just basically you or Uh, I have volunteers. Um, I don't have any employees. Um I I actually a lot of homeless people come by and I I let them volunteer and they help out and uh you know they'll help me clean up and organize and stuff. So I don't have employees though I only have volunteers. Okay. Thank you. Uh further questions I got Seth and Indra. Seth. Uh thanks Connor. Um yeah on that subject of the nonprofit. Uh, so are you operating at a loss as a nonprofit or is the extra income that you may be generating going towards a charitable I'm just kind of trying to figure that out.

Am I what was the question? Am I operating as a loss as a nonprofit? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yes. Okay. And then, you know, as a nonprofit a 501c3, correct? Yes. Do you have a board of directors? Uh, yes. How many is on the board? I'm just curious. Uh, four. Okay. Further questions? I got Indra. So, I'm wondering um how did it occur? Did you try to resolve this dispute with Republic first?

Yeah. Well, uh, despite or, uh, not counting the multiple solid waste agency meetings that I tried, you know, that I've been to the whole past year, I emailed Republic Services, uh, prior to this hearing and I let them know, um, you know, you have a chance to lift the ban on me right now. These are the exemptions. Uh, you can lift the ban right now and we can avoid this hearing. Um so yeah also the other thing is uh the city the city has the right and the authority to enforce the contract not the contractor. It's the city's job to ban people from the dump if they're violating the contract. It's not it's not their job to decide who gets to use the city owned property. Okay. Can I

Yep. And so how did you come to their attention? Like, do you go every day, every week? Were you going so often that they noticed you? Why?

I haven't been to Republic Services Transport Station in over 5 years. Um, but yes, and back, this was back when I first started my business over 5 years ago. And I used to have a magnet on the side of my truck that said junk removal. And then at first they said, "Hey, you got to take that magnet off. You can't be advertising that you're doing that." And so I took the magnet off and I kept going. And then finally they what the Republic service worker told me at the time is he said, "Hey, the city's cracking down on us. We can't let you dump here." And that's what I was told. And then I got a call from the sheriff telling me I was no trespass from the facility. Um, which is odd cuz I never committed a crime and it's a public property owned by the city. Um, so yeah, uh, I brought too much trash to the dump. I guess you could say I brought a suspicious amount of trash that they assumed I was hauling trash for someone else.

How often were you going? Uh, I mean, probably a couple times a week. Okay. And and in your thrift store services, do you ever go and to properties and just pick up trash or is it always items?

So, no. Yeah. And so if I if there if if as a licensed contractor I ever get a call that there's a property full of trash, I order a dumpster and we do that. And actually that reminds me there was actually a specific uh job I went out and I I quoted cuz also as a contractor, if you have a house that's hoarded full of stuff, there's trash everywhere in the house, you can't even bid that remodel until everything is out of the house. And so I went and I looked at this job and I said, "You got probably I told him I think it was 60 yards of trash." I said, "We're going to need two 30-yard dumpsters from SOS." And I I told him, "We're going to have to order them from SOS and they'll probably be able to get them here on Monday or whatever." And he got back to me and he said, "Hey, sorry. I'm going with someone else. They are going to throw all the trash in their trailer and haul it straight to the dump and they can get started right away." Um, so I've actually lost out on business because I have because I follow the franchise agreement. I could have told them, "Yeah, I'll be there right there and I'll load my box trucks." But because it was straight garbage and it was more volume than I had the capacity for in my dumpster, I told them, "We're going to have to rent a dumpster from SOS cuz we were in SOS's area." And and so, yes, if there is that situation, I know the rules. I know that trash I can't haul trash. Well, except for according to that new exemption. And that's why I have a dumpster at my thrift store. The trash I put in my Republic Services dumpster. that's what I'm supposed to do. At many solid waste agency meetings, they said if you remove trash from someone else, it needs to go in our public services dumpster. It doesn't matter where that dumpster is if it's at my site or the customer site. So I I operate the way I'm supposed to operate. And so what one thing is and that's so say I'm doing land clearing and I'm I'm there's a pile of blackberry bush and I need to clear that. I'm clearing the land and then I start moving the blackberry bushes and then there's a pile of garbage under the blackberry

bushes. That's common. Um so then I would technically I would have to stop and say, "Hey, you you guys are going to have to order a dumpster in and then we will have to put this garbage into the dumpster and I can only take the blackberry bushes." But because I have a dumpster at my thrift store, if it's a small enough amount, I can say, "Hey, no worries. I can take this and put it in my dumpster." And but and that's the issue. And that's so I operate within the franchise agreement, but there are situations when like I tried to put a couch in my dumpster and now that couch is still next to my dumpster. And so I don't know the point of the exemptions if they aren't going to be honored. And I don't think that they get to pick and choose where they honor the exemptions. Um

Okay. I have a couple more questions if I could. Um just specifically. So what you're saying what you take to the landfill to is or to their station is the reusable stuff. You don't take the trash there. Is that what you're saying? It would be the reusable stuff that I have deemed right are not going to be worth re repairable re repairing or reusing which could be trashy.

Well so and and that's the thing is I accept more donations than other thrift stores do because I give back to people who don't have much. So, like Ukan calls me and they say, "Hey, we just got someone into housing. Can they come to your store and furnish their house and then the people come to my store and I give them whatever they need for their house for free and I don't charge them for it."

And you brought up one one sorry one more um you brought up the land clearing. So, what's your understanding? This was not clear to me. What's your understanding of um it says land clearing only in connection with planned development. So when you're talking about land clearing blackberries or just clearing property, what's your understanding of what they mean by that? Um, are you talking about uh the section 2.87?

Uh, I'm not sure what section. Sorry. Where it says the con here. Well, it's on this slide or in connection with land clearing and development. So, so for my pile of blackberries example, say someone has, you know, a field on the side of the house, but there's a pile of blackberries in it. We need to clear that land and make it flat before they can then develop and build on it. That's my understanding of land clearing the land for development. Clearing is in connection with development. Yeah. Trying to in those area I don't

and then there's also the demolition which this happens all the time. There's an an old broken down shed that is a liability to the property owner and they need it torn down. Sometimes there's garbage in those sheds. Sometimes there's repairable cleanable discards. There's old tools and stuff. So, and that's kind of where the the dual entity comes in. My thrift store, I save the old tools and I put them in my store. I put the trash in the dumpster, but then when I have the construction debris, I should be able to haul that to the land or to the to the transfer station. Um, and and why why am I personally not allowed to do that, but any other contractor is allowed to do that? I understand what I can and can't haul. further questions. I got Seth and then Victoria. Seth,

um, yeah, I was just I was just curious why just Republic Services? I mean, I know I think in the past Southern Oregon sanitation has come up. You know, I just saw a letter come in through our email today from Douglas County. So, why just Republic in this instance?

Uh, I mean, if you're going to go fight two people, you would rather fight two people or one person? And uh no, also uh the main the real main reason uh Southern Oregon Sanitation owns the property that they operate on. They own that the property that they operate on on Redwood Avenue. Republic Services leases that property from the city of Grants Pass. So to me, that's why I chose only Republic Services because the city of Grants Pass has an obligation more so than a private business owner protecting. For all I know, SOS has the right to refuse service to anyone. But on when you're using city property to provide a public service, it then uh that's my reasoning for only uh and I would be interested if you got a email from Douglas County. I would Can you forward me that because I have never received anything from Douglas County?

Uh yeah, we'll we'll talk about that. Um I was curious on the 2.8.7, you know, I mean I I I kind of get where you're coming at, but you know, I've read it and I mean it's clear to me that it's a contractor that is doing the job um the demolition, the construction that then has the right to take their materials to the dump and and get rid of it. Right. So, you're not actually doing the construction? Why would you say that? I I am I I do physically I am a licensed contractor. I do the construction. I do the remodel. I I am. Yes. I guess if you are Yeah, then that makes sense. Yeah, that's that's what I'm saying. I'm telling you guys that I I do that. I I am a contractor and I do I do do that

and I would like to be able to do what every other contractor does.

So, it seems like there's this is Yeah, this is very nuanced. It feels like like there's multiple there's areas where it could be an exemption. And there's areas where it's probably not. I mean, based on what you're saying. Um, I'm just trying to understand, you know, I've read through it. Um, what what is your ultimate goal? I mean, you got the nonprofit, uh, you got the forprofit side of it. Um, what what are you what are you trying to ultimately do? I I get I I understand, you know, there's probably times when you are doing you have the license, so you are doing work. Um, and that makes sense, but then again, it's nuance, right? and you said there's people that are out there probably doing it, you know, under disguise, right? They're not they're not being truthful. Um, and that's that's the nature of the world we live in. But, yeah, so I don't know. It's tough.

Um, I'm not sure if I'm answering your question, but you reminded me there's also currently in Grants Pass peer-to-peer junk removal services that are in violation of this franchise agreement. You can go on load up, say, "Hey, I need a couch removed." And then um and then anyone with a truck can sign up, and then they're violating this franchise agreement without these exemptions. Um, I'm I think I misunderstood your question about what's my ultimate goal. My I think my goal is to not have to drive over an hour to go to a dump. I was I mean I I was actually just in actually, you know, my ultimate goal is to get u southern Oregon uh where we need to be as far as uh reducing, reusing, and recycling um actually being our state's solid waste hierarchy and not just a slogan. I was in uh at the Lane County Transfer Station just yesterday and uh they operate the way a transfer station should operate. They have trailer from St. Vincent Depal. You can stop and unload your donations first. They have uh building material, another nonprofit that does building material. You unload building materials that can be reused. They have the mattress recycling which I provide solely for Josephine County. Um and uh and those transfer stations are operated by Lane County. they aren't operated by these private monopolies who profit more from landfilling.

So, so let's say somebody has a property that wants to remove junk. Uh it's you're not doing construction, you're not doing anything like that, right? Strictly just wants to remove, you know, trash, junk, things around the property. So, you could hypothetically charge them, right, to go there, remove that, but then bring in a Republic Services dump bin or Southern Oregon sanitation, right, to the property, put it in there, pay their fee, they remove it, right? Is that an option? Yes. And that is what I do if there is large volumes of trash. But usually when I do a clean out, it's 10% trash, 90% repairable, cleanable discards. Cuz I mean, if you think about someone died and now the inheritors need to remove all those items from that house. They didn't just live amongst trash. They It was all their stuff that they now need to get rid of. And then that's where the nonprofit comes in and the sorting comes in and that's where we sort through. and I I fill my dumpster every week with the trash, but sometimes I have large items that don't fit in the dumpster and I would like to be able to access the cityowned transfer station like everyone else. Okay.

Uh further questions I got Victoria and then Rob. Victoria.

So, your issue is with them not giving you the ability from your perspective um of being a licensed contractor and not being able to dispose of like every other contractor. Are you separating this from your um issues at the nonprofit side? So, do you do you understand why they wouldn't um take some items in a dumpster at a at your nonprofit? Does that make sense?

Yeah, I I think it makes sense. Um I understand the the the distinct separate things that each separate entity can haul. If that was your question, I understand that my contract as a licensed contractor, I am only allowed to haul the construction or de demolition debris that I generate, I am should be allowed to haul that to the transfer station as a licensed contractor. And as a nonprofit thrift store, I should be able to haul the repable or cleanable discards that at whatever point I deem are no longer worth the floor space in my store and they need to go to the dump. So, I should be both of my separate entities should be able to haul two separate sets of materials if that makes sense. Do you think that they believe that you might be like mixing and matching these and so that's why they think it's kind of I mean are do you understand that that is what they are saying or or no

their beliefs are irrelevant to the exemptions that are in the contract.

But uh how what would you say then? Are you are are you mixing up the the contractor and the nonprofit? Are you are you are you saying like hypothetically if I were going to take a load to the dump would it be a mixture of the repairable cleanable discards and the construction debris? Um the answer is no. I would I I would specifically and and to avoid that confusion to your point I would I specifically separate those to make sure that there isn't that confusion. So my licensed contractor would be hauling the demolition debris and then the nonprofit entity would be hauling the repairable or cleanable discards. So yes, that yes, I understand what you're saying and I

I would not plan to bring mixed loads. I see what you're saying about how that could confuse them if they were if I was allowed to go to the dump and then they would be like, "Well, wait, who is this coming from? The nonprofit or the contractor?" Uh, yes. I would make sure to have separate loads, separate entities hauling the separate items, which uh I go above and beyond to fit within this franchise agreement. Um uh yeah, it's funny that we have the small business task force going on right now because this is kind of one of those ridiculous regulations that kind of tries to shut down small businesses. And then uh my last question is as you brought up um just things that you didn't like about about this um franchise agreement and things that you believe that they do wrong. How why is that important for your case here tonight?

I'm not sure I'm understanding the question. Well, I just don't know your exemptions. What do your exemptions have to do with violations that you say this franchise is committing? Just in your speech you there was a section of your speech where you're saying they're doing this, they're doing this, they're doing this. Um that you it seemed like you didn't like that they did. How what bearing does that have on your um case here about your exemptions?

I'm not sure if I'm following um I don't like that they ban people from the dump. Uh I mean Jason could probably tell you how many illegal haulers they've banned in the past year. It's over 10. Um I'm not sure if I'm answering your question, but I don't like that this franchise agreement allows for them. I don't like that the franchise agreement gives the contract the haulers the unilateral authority to ban people without cause or reason. Um I think if they want to ban someone, they should bring it to the city council or bring it to the solid waste agency and say, "Hey, we want to ban this guy because he's bringing other people's trash to us or whatever they want to do." So, um I'm not sure if that answered your question or not. Or I'm not sure if you were referring to when I mentioned uh what's going on in Coffin View. Uh cuz that was just uh is that what you're referring to?

I believe so. Okay. Yeah. So, that was separate but related. Uh up in Coffin View, Republic Services owns that landfill up there. Um they're under deeq enforcement right now for failing to monitor 92% of their gas leaks. uh they've emitted they're emitting 200 times the amount of uh methane gas that is legally allowed. Um so that just goes to their credibility as an organization and their care about the communities that they operate in um over profit.

So I think the ultimate question was why did you even talk about that because it's not necessarily relevant to your complaint. Um, well, and I I had brought that up. Jason Jason mentioned that uh I I thought that Republic managed the postclosure of the Merlin landfill, but Jason let me know that the city operates that. So, I'm hoping that the city had does much better monitoring than Republic does of their landfill.

Okay. Um, for the questions, I got uh Rob and then Joel and Seth. Rob? Yeah, this is um uh a difficult position for council to be in, but we did sign up for it. I guess what makes it difficult is as Seth mentioned, there's a lot of nuance. There's I'm sure we're going to hear a lot of rebuttal from uh Republic. They're here tonight and um there's a lot of information that even though I did most of my reading over the weekend, a lot more information came in today. So, you know, it's hard to digest it all on the fly. Um, but I guess what I think if I un if I understand what you uh one of the um issues that you have, I think the words you may have been looking for was due process. In other words, when you get to the or when someone gets to the uh the dump or or the landfill, whatever, it seems as though you're saying that it shouldn't be up to the um the monopoly holder or the franchisee to be judged during an executioner. They're deciding kind of unilaterally whether or not they from their appearance, from your appearance of your truck or whatever, they're deciding whether or not you it's appropriate for you or it isn't appropriate for you. So, there's no due process there. And I guess that's kind of what you're seeking. Um,

yeah. Yeah, that's correct. Well, and also I mean

I mean there could be as much or as little nuance here as you want there to be. Section 2.89, I'll just read this. the transportation of solid waste by persons engaged in the cleanup of property for the purpose of abiding a judicial order, preparing the property for sale, abating nuisances, or eliminating hazardous conditions. So, if someone has trash on their property and they're trying to list that property for sale, I am allowed to transport that solid waste. I don't even need to use a Republic Services dumpster. If you can all just read that exemption right there, that is what I do. I help people prepare their properties for sale by abating the nuisances and eliminating the hazardous conditions that exist on the properties before they can sell them.

Right. I guess I guess part of what I'm talking about with uh you you included a lot in your presentation and some of it I don't I don't uh necessarily understand. So on the one hand you have a dumpster on your property. theoretically, um, Republic comes around and services that dumpster and pretty much anything in that dumpster is is appropriate for them to to cart away. But yet, you mentioned something about you putting a couch in the dumpster and they won't take that. Okay. So, I I don't And then what uh are you supposed to do with that if you're not are you then not allowed to take that to the transfer station yourself as a reusable item? that's clearly was a a reusable item, a couch. They won't allow it in dumpster and then not also they're also not allowing you to take it to the transfer station as well.

And that is that is correct. Yes. And that is why it's a violation of the exemption. So it would seem as though one or the other. They they should either be allowed to be in your dumpster or clearly you should be allowed to take it to the transfer station, I guess, is what I'm gleaning from that. Would you agree with that or Yes, the latter. I should 100% be allowed to take it to the transfer station.

Okay. So thank you. So on this this other exemption that you just became uh aware of uh the 2.8.9 8.9 explicitly protects property cleanup and nuance uh and nu I'm sorry nu nuisance abatement from franchise that that to me would be I'm just reading that on face value and somebody could correct me whether it's Jason or or the fr um the franchise holder when explicive explicitly protects property cleanup and um nuisance abatement from franchise requirements I read that as saying that pretty much anything that you're doing in your line of work would be a um an exclusion or it would be an exemption I should say. Um as you're saying property cleanup is what you do. That doesn't necessarily say whether it's reusables. It could be it could be garbage. It could be you know biological waste. It could be a lot of things. I guess from that 2.8.9 um what do you take that to mean? Could it be anything literally

garbage or whatever? Because that's the way I'm reading it. Uh o almost anything. I mean, if something is causing someone a nuisance, that could be two trash bags on the side of their house that's making flaws come into their house. Uh, so yes, I agree with your interpretation of that, and that's what makes this ban even more concerning. Okay. So, just a a couple other things. Um, did I did you say did I hear you say that it's been 5 years since you've been to the dump? You said something about 5 years and I didn't follow that. It's been over 5 years since I've been to any transfer station in Josephine County. I've been hauling uh to other counties for over 5 years.

Okay. So, what and why have you avoided the transfer stations in in Josephine County? I have been banned and no trespassed even without being there in 5 years. Yes. I Yes. I I tried to go to Southern Oregon Sanitation when I got my contractor's license with a load of demolition debris. At that point, I was no trespass from the facility. And that was 5 years ago.

No, that was just uh that that that most recent one uh was just this past year, I believe. Um because I I just only got my contractor's license just over the past year or so. Um so yeah, after I got my contractor's license and I knew that I fully, no questions asked, qualified for that exemption, I said, "Okay, great. I can go to the dump. I can take this demolition debris to the dump." and I tried and they issued a no trespass on me for trying to do my contractor's job and fit within the exemptions of the franchise agreement. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Uh further questions. I got uh I got somebody that wants to weigh in it. Go ahead, Stephanie.

I just wanted to provide some potential clarification regarding 2.8.9. Um my understanding on this is that it has to do with it's that abiding a judicial order that's referencing um the judicial orders to clean up properties that have been determined to be nuisances under the legal definitions. Um so it would be abating legal nuisances and eliminating hazardous conditions as defined by the law, not just that somebody thinks it's a nuisance on their own property. Thank you, Stephanie. Um, further questions, I got uh Joel, Seth, Indra, and Rick. So, Joel,

thank you, Stephanie, for that. Um, I I just got three questions. Uh, we we got everything in front of us here. Um, Connor, do you transport solid waste uh while engaged in the cleanup of property for the purposes of abiding a judicious order, preparing the sale for property, abating new substances, and it's not and, it's or. The way it's written, it's not and, it's or. Eliminating hazardous conditions. Do you do that? Yes, sir, I do.

Okay. Then under 2.8.7, 8.7. Under your contractor's license, do you haul waste created with demolition, construction, or remodeling of a building or structure or in in conjunction with land clearing and development and that you have generated on your construction on the the contractor's construction site and you own the equipment that hauls it to the dump?

Yes, sir, I do. Do you do anything else besides those two things and hauling stuff to the dump and you got the uh thing by you got the uh the the trash bin that uh Republic hauls for you. Do you do you do anything outside of those two? Um I do have my my nonprofit thrift store as well um which I haul the repairable and cleanable discards for reuse. Okay. So, um, okay. Thank you. Further questions. I got Seth. Yeah. So, you got Ben 5 years ago, you said. Roughly. Uh, it might even be six now.

Okay. Why was that? Uh, because I allegedly hauled trash to the dump that allegedly did not belong to me. Okay. So, then you got your CCB first licensed last April. So, and maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like this whole thing could be you trying to kind of ask for forgiveness in a sense because you got banned 6 years ago. So, you were doing something you shouldn't have been doing. According to the agreement, you didn't have a CCB then. You recently got it within the last year. So, now you're maybe trying to restart in a sense from the point of you got a CCB. Seems pretty clearcut to me.

Uh, I mean, it's actually kind of the opposite. Um, I started a business. Uh, I had no idea about this franchise agreement. Once this franchise agreement was brought to my attention, I did everything possible to fit within those exemptions. I mean, I don't think anyone thinks it's against the law to provide dump runs and to do dump runs for people. Uh, there's 20 other companies in town that do that. So, it's not common knowledge. This franchise agreement and the exclusive right to haul trash isn't necessarily common knowledge. Um, I would say it's actually the opposite to your statement. Uh, when Jason brought this franchise agreement to my attention five years ago, I studied it and I said, "Okay, what do I need to do to make sure that I am not violating this agreement? How do I need to operate my business to make sure that I'm fully compliant with all local regulations and state mandates?" Um, so yeah, I I think actually the opposite.

Well, you would have been violating 2.8.7, right? you would have 6 years ago, hypothetically speaking, you would have been violating 2.8.7 at that point in time on that specific topic because you didn't have a CCB license, right? I mean, that's you Oh, yeah. When they originally banned me. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And then and I had at the time I wasn't knowingly violating their franchise agreement. Um, also section 8.4 4 states, "Neither party shall be relieved of its obligation to comply with any of the provisions of this agreement by reason of any failure of the other party to enforce prompt compliance. Failure to enforce prompt compliance shall not constitute a waiver of any right or benefit under this agreement. So just because the exemptions haven't been acknowledged previously doesn't mean they don't still need to be acknowledged." Okay, this is kind of I mean it's still somewhat related to this, but so hypothetically if you were to get exemptions granted uh would this apply to your property on what is it? Fruitdale River Highway in terms of you know removing debris from that property. Um you know I've had people talk to me about that property specifically. I would assume I don't know off the top of my head that there's code violations happening right now. I live in that ward. Uh I drive by it frequently. I'm just curious, you know, I looked at Google reviews, a lot of people said the same thing. So, I'm curious on that front.

Yes, definitely. And that would be hopefully a reason the city would grant these exemptions cuz like I had mentioned the couch that I tried to put in the dumpster that's now been sitting by the dumpster for a week. Um, so yes, exactly. Uh, yes, definitely. Uh, further questions? I got uh Indra and Rick and Rob. Indra,

I'm going to head in a little bit different direction because you mentioned uh discrimination and so then you mentioned about 10 maybe have been banned uh from the dump. I don't know why. We don't have to get into that. But are you um why do you think there's discrimination? Are they not allowing you but allowing other business owners who do the same thing to do that? Are you aware of any specific um practices like that? And also sorry there was a um

a note that the employees were were referring customers to your competitors but your competitors would do the same thing you do. Correct. So can you elaborate on that? So yeah, um I actually I actually called Republic Services uh months ago and I said, "Hey, uh if I need to get a dumpster from you guys, but I can't physically fill its, can will you guys send your guys out to fill that dumpster for me?" And they said, "No, we don't do that." And I said, "Okay, well then what should we do?" And they said, "You should call a junk removal company and the junk removal company will come in their truck and they will load the items in their truck and they will haul the items to the transfer station because everywhere else there are junk removal services. It's it's an entire industry. Um, so that is what Republic Services call center recommended uh because their call center is in Arizona. It's not local here. Um, which I believe is also a violation of the franchise agreement. I believe they're supposed to have a local uh call center here. But anyway, so yes, when you call Republic Service and maybe they reprimanded that individual and they said if if anything's from Grants Pass, you have to say that you can't you can't recommend joke removal service if they're in Grants Pass. Um, but I I they had the zip code. They knew where I was located and they recommended junk removal service. Uh, which is me. If you Google junk removal, you'll come with my phone number. Um, so that was what that was about. What was your previous or the other?

As far as you know, there aren't. Are there junk removal services here that are allowed to go there?

Uh, yes, there are. I mean, there are multiple that are just maybe not banned yet, but they're advertising weekly all the time that they're still providing services. Um, so there are multiple services operating. Um, whether or not they've been banned yet by both dumps, I don't know because I don't operate the dumps. Um, there's also there's also another there's one other company that actually operates within the exemptions. Um, and there I think they're the only one that actually operates within the exemptions. Uh, U-Turn for Christ has a thrift store. They do the repairable cleanable discards and they are also a licensed contractor. Um and they also do cleanout work and they fit explicitly within these exemptions. Um just like I do. Uh another thing that they do which I am trying to do which I will be doing um multiple organizations can go out to public land clean up trash from public property and then haul that illegally dumped trash into the dump and pay to dispose of that trash. Anyone can do that, right? There's multiple organizations that will go do that and then they'll also ask for donations to cover for those costs. So I asked I asked Jason I said so if I clean up trash from public property there's a pile of illegally dump trash somewhere I want to go help clean up Devil's Slide. Am I allowed to bring that trash to the transfer station like everyone else? And he said no because of the ban I would have to have a government contract which I do have a government contract. I actually was the board of county commissioners approved a $68,000 economic development grant for my company and part of that was that I would clean up 15 cubic yards of trash from public land every month. So I do have a government contract to clean up trash from public property and somehow I'm still may not be allowed to go to the dump. Uh I I would like the council to explain why anyone cleaning up trash from public property would not be allowed to bring it to the dump.

Uh further questions I got uh Rick and then Rob. Rick.

So Connor, you talk about this sofa and I just wanted to go through that scenario again. So if the person's 90 years old, they have a sofa and it's totally ripped apart because they had dogs and cats on it. They wanted to go to the dump. How do they get it there? Uh they call me and or what are you what are you saying? They they can't. it sits in their house forever. Or or they can rent a big 30 yard dumpster that might fit the dimensions and then they can hope that they might find someone that can then pull that out and put it into the dumpster for them. Um, which is hard when when you when you ban companies from doing this work, who are they going to call to do that work of putting that couch into that dumpster for that person?

Okay, thank you. further questions. I got Rob.

Yeah, you've you've um you're covering uh all the big big picture items and I I appreciate that. And as far and a lot of the details as well, there's a detail in our packet that I guess was deemed worthy enough to put in the packet I guess by staff where they on page 22 um I guess it and you you touched on it as well. Uh there was a a business that was getting ready for a grand opening and I guess it says that um this I guess it comes from a u an online post that attributed to you. Uh I was there this morning clearing up all the extra trash um that wouldn't fit in their dumpster. So in in that situation and I and I guess I think you may have said that you put it in your truck and you took it away. Um, so in that situation, was that was what you did that day was that improper?

No, not at all. Because I brought that trash or recyclable material to a different Republic Services dumpster. It was, first of all, that stuff was all cardboard that should have been going into a cardboard dumpster anyway. Republic should have dropped them off a cardboard dumpster, not just a trash dumpster. Um, but anyway, it went to my thrift store to a cardboard dumpster to be recycled by Republic Services. So that just because I was able to move it from the parking lot to a Republic Services dumpster, that was more efficient and that helped the customer and that didn't violate the franchise agreement versus Republic having to go then send another separate truck out with a 5-yard dumpster to drop off for them to then put that stuff in. It was their opening day. They called me with an emergency pickup saying they needed this gone for opening day. And so no, that's not a violation of the franchise agreement to remove stuff from one property and put it into a dumpster on a different property.

Thank you. Further questions? Anybody else? All right. Thank you for your time, sir. Thank you.

At this point, um we will have um Republic Services step up. that a little bit. Good evening, Mayor Sherf, city council members and staff. I'm Julie Jackson. I'm the municipal manager for Republic Services, and I'm here tonight to represent Republic Services in the appeal requested by Mr. Kirkpatrick. Um, in addition to the staff report which summarizes the issue I think fairly, we have submitted a formal letter um that highlights our position of the appeal as well. The first thing I'd like to point out is that we do not believe Mr. Kirkpatre has satisfied the conditions to request an appeal. Um, yes, when we pointed that out, he did send an email to our general manager on February 2nd, just two days ago, and it wasn't an attempt to resolve the issue. It was a demand to lift the ban. So, we didn't we don't really see that as trying to resolve the issue. We haven't had a phone call from him trying to resolve the issue or a letter or an email, but we did receive that demand on February 2nd, just two days ago. um we do not believe that this was a good faith attempt to actually resolve any issue. He says he qualifies under two separate exemptions. Um but the charitable organization exemption is very clear in that you need to be hauling reusable repable discards. We don't think taking truckloads to a transfer station or a landfill constitutes a good faith attempt to be taking reusable and repable items. The couch that he talks about may have been in okay shape or it may not. I don't

know and I I wouldn't attempt to to guess that. But he does talk about having a dumpster. The reason that he couldn't put that couch in the dumpster is because it doesn't fit within that dumpster. So when we come to empty a dumpster with huge things sticking out of them, we can't empty them. So an easy solution would have been for him to call and ask for a bulk pickup. We could come pick up a couch at the curb at any time. So um we don't think that he fits within that exemption. We don't think taking truckloads to a transfer station for disposal to be thrown away fits that exemption. Um, and there are lots of other we work with thrift stores all over um all over the state really. And and this is really not something that most thrift stores are concerned with or that that they use that exemption. What we're really talking about is hauling waste. And Mr. Kirkpatrick advertises as a junk hauler. So, a junk hauler is somebody who we would anticipate is hauling trash or materials that need to be could be that they're going to be separated, but but when you have those materials that need to go to a landfill, that's the part of the franchise that we don't think he qualifies for. The second is 2.8.7, which discusses contractors. And while he may be a contractor, the scope of the contracting work is really specifically defined in that clause. And the materials need to be materials generated by the primary work of the contractor. So your primary job cannot be hauling anything. That's the part you can't do. The primary work needs to be the demolition. If there were demolition, that would need to come in with a a profiled um by a third-party vendor. it would need to be profiled and we would need to know that it was free of asbestous and all of the other regulations that we comply with DEEQ

for. Um we have we have not seen that happen. Um if he were a landscape contractor and he came in with just a load of landscape landscaping organic material that would be okay but that's not what we've seen. We do not go looking for these folks. We know there are a lot of them out there and we don't go out looking for them, but when they become a problem, when it becomes obvious to us that they're violating the franchise, that's the only time we really would take action. Um, I think he's currently and knowingly violating the franchise. Um, we do believe that there's work he can do that doesn't violate the franchise, that works within the franchise. Um, having a thrift store, taking reusable items is is fine with us. picking up reusable items is fine with us. Um, one of the things you may not be aware of is that he's also been banned from Southern Oregon Sanitation Transfer Station, Dry Creek Landfill, the Douglas County Landfill, and the Waste Connections Transfer Station. So, it isn't just us. Um, we're not singling anyone out. It's he has been banned by all these other locations as well. um we're willing to meet with him and discuss, for example, the mattress issue. We understand that he's involved with the mattress EPR program. We're also talking with um the state mattress EPR program and it and it could be that we can collect those or the mattresses that are part of this program. Um they're without getting too technical, there are program mattresses that have to be select collected if you're a part of that program. and then he's paid for the mattresses that can be recycled. Um, we'd be willing to talk to him and work out some sort of an arrangement with that, but once again, he hasn't come to us to talk about those issues. Um, if I I want to touch on the Bath and Body Works issue because the dumpster he's

talking about is was a cardboard dumpster that was way overloaded. So, one of the things that is incumbent upon franchise haulers, we work very, very closely with DEEQ and one of the things that's incumbent upon franchise haulers is to make sure that we do education and outreach with our customers that when they have a box, in this case, that was very contaminated. Um, that particular company, we have that problem all over the state, I will say. They want to have a dumpster for cardboard, but it's filled with trash. typically um plastic bags and all kinds of things that can't be recycled. This one should have had just cardboard and it was contaminated. So, we told them they had to unload that and that's when they called him and they called him because he advertises as a junk hauler. So, I think all of those things let you know that he violated the franchise. Um, so as a part of DEEQ's recycling modernization act, which went into effect July 1st, um, contamination reduction is really an important component, and you're going to be see hearing a lot more about trying to keep that recycling clean, trying to keep that cardboard dumpster clean. And so that was a part of the issue with that.

Um, as as was said, we don't operate or own or maintain the Merlin landfill. So that one is sort of a moot point. Um uh basically we believe that the franchise benefits the municipalities throughout Oregon. Um we think about 95% of the state is franchised and for good reason. It gives cities and counties the ability to regulate services and regulate rates. Um, and it we also partner with city and counties by contributing funds to not only the general fund, but the environmental fund here contributes to grants throughout the community that go for solid waste issues. So, in general, I mean, I think we we support him working in the areas that the franchise allows. We're just asking him to stop hauling waste.

Thank you. Uh, bring it back to council for questions. Uh Rob, so when you mentioned that uh his businesses or he has been banned at a number of different transfer stations, uh who was that ban done by? Who who who banned him? The operators or owners of those facilities. Okay. So it wasn't adjudicated in in court. No, there was no official body. It was just there was no due process. There was just person who kind of went uh that doesn't really fit with what we think. Are there pictures taken at that point? Is there any evidence taken at that point or just

Well, I I could only speak for Republic Services when you've banned him, have have you photographed uh indiscretions or have you taken to court or anything like that? It's been 5 years since we allowed him at the transfer station. We know that there have been loads that come in that somebody else hauls in for him. Um the famous case of his mother bringing a truckload of trash in has been discussed at the solid waste meetings. But so no, we don't have anything because it's been a long time. But he did used to have these me these um advertisements on the side of the truck and it became obvious that that's what was happening. Thank you. Sure.

Further questions? I got Rick, Victoria, Kathleen, Joel, Rick. Thank you, Julie. So, on that couch situation with the 90-year-old and the couch has been totally trashed and she's unable to get it out of her house. Um, can she call you up and say, "I have a couch that just needs to be taken to the dumper." What's the proper procedure for that situation? Well, we don't we wouldn't come in the house to get a couch. That's he is correct about that. But I think he you would do what most people do. You do what I do. you have a friend or a family member or a neighbor or some buddy haul that couch to the curb for you and then we would come and pick it up. Okay. Thank you.

So, we do and they're called bulky pickups. We do bulky pickups at the curb all the time. Victoria, so your issue at Republic is just, tell me if I'm right, is just repeated um um infractions of of hauling junk and but you would be but you are fine if it is within his new contractor's license. Um, is that correct? So, there's a way that he could come back and do Republic.

Sure, there is a way that he could come back. He would need to follow the rules. However, so as you know, 5 years ago, he didn't have a contractor's license and um it became pretty clear to us that he was hauling trash. So if that situation has changed, the franchise itself tells you that he has a process to come and try to resolve that with us. If that doesn't happen, he can always come to the solid waste agency or back to the council. But yeah, of course, we're not going to say never. Not ever would we say that. But you've got to follow the rules. So, if he were to come to you to say, I have here's my license, but that has not you you would say, okay, and here's the rules or whatever. Um, and that has not happened since.

Correct. Mr. Kirk Patrick has had his contractor's license. Okay. Y, thank you. Further questions? I got Kathleen. I was just wondering how much DEEQ regulates your um what you can take and can't take

uh significantly. So DEEQ regulates um not only solid waste which would could be trash what you would call household trash but also recycling. So um we are um under a lot of obligation to follow the rules. For example, as I just mentioned, demolition debris needs to be profiled. It we have to know if there's some kind of hazardous material in there. We have to know if there's asbestous in which is in many many many demolition loads, but we have to know those things going in. We haven't seen anything like that come in from him. So, just demolition. We've turned people away um here and in other places coming in with a demolition load that isn't manifested or isn't profiled because we don't know what's in it and we and we are under obligation not to take those loads by DEEQ. Um recycling needs to be clean recycling. It can't be mixed with household trash or any other kind of trash and that's regulated by DQ DQ as well.

Now there's been a lot of change with the recycling. So, is that clear? Is he clear on what can be recycled and what can't be?

Well, I I can't answer that for him. Um the the bringing um re So, recycling is also part of the solid waste system. So, it recycling can be trash, it can be or I mean solid waste can be trash that needs to be disposed of at a landfill or transfer station, but it can also be recycling. All of that is covered under the solid waste system. So the franchise system doesn't allow for other people to haul that. But it does with these very specific exemptions allow him to haul reusable things. Lots of thrift stores go and pick go out to a household and they take what they can reuse or they think they might be able to repair or they might be able to resell or give away. Um, but I think just to go out and take everything and then want to throw away, then want to haul what he can't use to a landfill or a disposal site is the part that we don't agree with

because some of it's maybe not acceptable to put in the landfill.

Uh, it might be if it's demolition material, but household discards would be. So, I think the the argument was I can't go into a house and I can't clean out the whole thing and throw away what I want to throw away and haul that myself and keep what I want to keep that could be reused. And I think the answer for most people, I've just been through this in the last year when my mother passed away, is that you, we hired somebody to come and do an estate sale and they sold what they could sell and then we called a couple of thrift stores to come out and take what they wanted to take and what they thought they could reuse or repair and then we got a dumpster and we put the rest of the material in it. And I think that's the proper way to do this. Sure.

Further questions. I got Joel and then Indra. Joel. Well, first off, I appreciate uh the franchise and what it does for our community. Um I'm just dealing with the words and what's written on paper. And um do you consider junk waste and waste junk? Yes. I think industrywide across the country it is. So he can haul junk then under anybody can haul junk then under these two exceptions because it talks about waste. I I don't see anything in here that would disqualify him from qualifying under Let me read it to you and and and then I need you to tell me.

Okay. Uh why he wouldn't qualify.

Sure. hauling waste created in connection with the demolition, construction, or remodeling of a building or structure, or in connection with land clearing and development. There's no word primary in there. Such waste shall be generated by the contractor in connection with the contractor's construction site and hauled in equipment owned by the contractor. Second one, transportation of solid waste junk by persons engaged in the cleanup of property for the purpose of abiding a judicious order, preparing the property for sale, abating nuisances, or eliminating hazardous conditions.

So I think now now what what didn't what what disqualifies him from those words? Well, I think and I'm not talking about primary. I'm not talking about junk versus waste. Nope. Me either. I'm So, let's go back to the first the last one you mentioned because I think when you put that word or in there, there are a couple ways to look at No, I didn't put it in there. It's in there. When you read it, there are a couple ways to look at that. So, no. Or is or it's on paper. It is. But I think the first part of that sentence tells you what he can do and then he can do it for this or this. The first part of the sentence tells you there needs to be a judicial order.

We have certainly not seen anyone come in with a judicial order from one of his companies. So under that, I don't see where that's required. It says or I I mean or is pretty spec. If it said and that would be different. Well, I will tell you that I didn't have our legal team go over that one because he did not bring that up and use that as one of his exemptions. I'm just talking about so we can certainly come back to that but but I'm saying that the first part of that sentence tells you it needs to be part of a judicial order and I think that's what that's intended to mean. It says or ma'am.

It does. Yeah. But you and I are reading that or differently. We're putting a comment in a different place. Yeah. And then you asked a Can Do you want me to answer the second part of that first? I'm sorry. You asked a sec a first question and that was about um well I just wonder why the contractor piece of it

why he wouldn't fit there from your perspective and what I heard was it was primary it was waste instead of junk. I heard that it was uh he it wasn't a primary op I don't see the word primary in here. I don't see where you looked at this statute objectively and applied it to his situation. Well, I because I'm not a lawyer, I didn't rely just on myself, but we did have our legal team take a very close look at it and they felt that it was very specific that he did not meet that contractor piece of it because you need what was the logic that they were using?

Well, because you need to be the waste you needs to be generated by you. Meaning, I'm building a house and I can haul away the trash at the end of the day from building that house. I'm a demolition contractor and so that's 2.8.7 under 2.8.9 it it doesn't it just says by persons engaged in the cleanup of property. Well, that's a piece of that section. That's not all of that section. And I think a lot of the confusion comes especi when we were at the solid waste agency from looking at just little pieces here and there out of the franchise agreement. We need to look at the whole thing.

I'm looking at that whole section, ma'am. Well, I think I think that that first that section with the or this ambiguous or really starts the sentence by saying it needs to be as a part of a judicial order and then it describes how you do that under there. So, we're going to disagree on how how we're reading judicial order, comma, next one, comma, next one, comma, or and I I don't know, maybe it was poorly written, but but it's what we're dealing with. And my English teacher would say it's, you know, it can be one or the other. I mean, it's it's not an and sure

further questions. I got Indra. Uh, yes. So you're you're making a big distinction between usable um reusable things versus trash. And so what comes to my mind is that old saying, one person's junk is another person's treasure. So, how are you deter I can see if it's trash in a bag, you know, with waste from food and your kitchen, but but if it's items, are you trying to delineate between good used items and bad? Was that your point in

We're trying to follow the franchise as it's written. And I and I think that that reusable repable or reusable discards is pretty clear. When a truck full of obvious trash comes in that doesn't have anything to repair or that somebody might want to use, then we're going to say that's trash. And I no, I don't think we're trying to look at a blender that comes in in a load and say, gosh, is this repable or is it something that's trash? We just don't get down to that granular level. But um when a truck full of something that's going to a landfill that's solid waste and and is trash comes in, it's pretty obvious when it's not reusable or um repable material.

Okay. I wanted to make that distinction. No, we're not looking at every load that comes in and and with a f with a magnifying glass and trying to make that distinction. Okay. And then banned for five years so far. So when you ban people, are they banned for life? How do you talk to them about this is a temporary unless again if he had come if he had come to us at any point in that 5 years this could have maybe been resolved at that point but he didn't come to us ever during that 5year period

okay and that I'm feeling like you what you're saying here is that you're you're willing to work things out and if he would have only come to you maybe you could have worked things out. Um however he stated he was at the solid waste um the meetings with you correct. So did you ever talk to him? Did you ever reach out? Were there any words

after the first meeting? Because as you know he's chosen just to um point out Republic Services, but there are many other organizations that that he really is including in this topic. And so after that first meeting and his first presentation that I was aware of at the solid waste agency, um Trent Carpenter from Southern Oregon Sanitation did set up a meeting with him and um Trent said, "I'll take a stab and we'll see what if we can come up with some reasonable um solution and there was no reasonable solution that came out of that meeting." So yes, um we reached out through Trent, but but Trent knew that he was speaking for both of us. We had talked to him about that meeting and we just didn't want to bombard him with lots and lots of people. So there was no resolution that came out of that.

Okay. But have I personally reached out to him? No. And as he has not reached out to me. Okay. And then I I read the minutes from the meetings and you said you're Julie, right? I am Julie.

Um, you said X room exists for junk haulers in the current agreement. I read that in the minutes. So, what do you mean by that? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have used the word junkers, but I think I said room exists. There's a lane for him to operate in as a part of the current agreement. I just think he's operating outside of that lane. And what I meant by that was, heck, if somebody calls and says, 'I've got a house full of furniture. Come and get what you think you can reuse or repair. Absolutely fine. If he decides to become a a ar a landscape contractor and he goes to clean out material and he comes in with a load that is all organic material because we have to have that separated. It can't be organic material mixed with trash. That's fine. there there are jobs that he can do. It's just that he's working outside of that lane and that's what we're asking him not to do. So, do you have any policies in Republic that if someone is banned, you send them communications that you're banned for this long, we're willing to, you know, you can come back after a year and we'll see. Is there

anything in your policies to remedy the situation? In those cases, we typically rely on the jurisdiction and the franchise because that's who we're regulated by. So, we rely on the franchise to determine what the next step would be. And I I think the next step is pretty clear that he can contact us, the hauler, to try to resolve the issue. And that didn't happen. And it hasn't happened. if if he wants to contact us tomorrow to try to resolve the issue, we'll be happy to do to work with him. But to just say go ahead and haul anything you want. That's the piece we're not going to say go right ahead.

But yeah, I feel no responsibility even for five years, even when you're at meetings together to know about him. I mean, no. Do I feel no responsibility? No. The company, not you.

Personally, it's not. I I think I think that answer is, you know, um we're it's not our job to reach out to people who are violating the franchise necessarily. He was told several times prior to being banned. So, in that instance, we did reach out. But, um you know, I I guess you could ask him the same question. Does he feel no responsibility to reach out and try to resolve the issue? I'm just trying to understand it all. So, thank you. I know it's a complicated explanation. I appreciate it.

I get that. We really do. We just are trying to protect the franchise because we're so much more regulated than he's certainly not regulated by the franchise. We pay franchise fees. We pay into the environmental fee. We contribute um probably $50,000 worth of cash and inind services in this community. We instituted a tire free tire takeback on Earth Day, which we did um last year and we'll be doing again this year. So, we feel like we're really good community players and we want to continue to do that and the franchise gives us sort of the um assurance that that we have this franchise um business here and that we are going to do our part to be good partners in that franchise as well. So, that's kind of where we're coming from. Okay, I just um we're going to go into further questions. I got Victoria and Rick, but before I do, um I do see some of our line of questioning kind of getting a little bit broad. Um we do need to keep our line of questioning to the topic at hand, which is basically you have a complaintant that has a specific complaint on certain criteria within the franchise agreement. So, we need to kind of keep that um line of questioning, discussion to those topics and not be so broad or we're going to be here till like midnight. Um, next I got a Victoria and then Rick. Victoria. Oh, and then Joel after that. So, Victoria first.

So, I'm just needing to go through 2.8.9, 2.8.1, and 2.8.7. And from my understanding, when Stephanie read 2.8.9 that that uh Mr. Kirkpatrick would not be uh eligible for that exemption because it it it begins talking about under a judicial order. So, it makes sense that the whole sentence is talking about a judicial order. And I just wondered if Stephanie could uh tell me if I'm thinking correctly there to your best of your ability.

To the best of my ability, I know that that was the intention of that paragraph. I've heard that that discussion. Um there may be some interpretation that could be done for that. Um not not really in the abating nuisances or eliminating hazardous conditions components because those are more legal terms of art and not um anything that's just you don't like it that you want personally find something hazardous on your property. It's it's intended for those properties where the court has said this property is a nuisance and a hazard and therefore you have to clean this up. your court order to do that. That's what the intention is for that exemption. Um it does however say preparing the property for sale and that's the one that give um which is usually can be part of those court orders. Um but the question with the way it's written and for interpretation by council I guess to determine whether he's uh compliant with that exemption um is whether that's supposed to be tied to the judicial order or not. Um but I know that that was the intention when that was written.

Yeah. And it just seems like for me, I would not want to put my myself in the place of determining it. I would just go with what it it seems the law is is saying. So, um so that that just seems the right thing for me. It just doesn't seem like 2.8.9 is one that that fits because of that. So, um then, uh 2.8.7 8.7 is generated by the contractor and since Mr. Kirk Patrick is now a contractor um the question at at what point would I think she get to

the Well, it's Yeah, I'm I'm talking specifically about the exemptions. Yeah, continue. I was answering a question over here. Oh, okay. Oh, gotcha. I might be able to help you with that a little bit. Thank you. In the waste industry, we talk about the generator of waste, and that wouldn't be the person cleaning it up. That would be the person who generates the waste, the homeowner, the family who owns the house, but the person who actually generates the waste.

Oh, I thought 2.8. Oh, that's 2.8.7. Apolog Okay. All right. Oh, I was getting the two mixed up. So, and so a contractor who's doing the work, bringing in wood and I don't know what sheetrock and all kinds of things and doing that work is generating the pieces of sheetrock that they cut away and aren't using or the the wood that's been cut away. That's wood. That's waste generated by that contractor. And I think that's the difference than going in and just cleaning things out of a house that was generated by someone else.

Yeah. Yeah. So generated by a contractor is uh it could be having to clean up, you know, debris and stuff like that, but it would be in the process of of taking something apart to to rebuild it or do an addition or something like that. Is that the primary job can't be hauling waste and is that the issue that you that you tended to see it was the primary Okay.

Is there Thank you for putting that in perspective and clarifying that. Yes. Yeah. So, that's that's what I was thinking. And so, that was my thinking. Is there a way for um a person with a contractor's license to be a a junk hauler and to be able to come to Republic Services? Uh I I think I'm going to I'm going to look at Trent. I mean, I think the answer is not within these franchise guidelines. Okay. Thank you. And so uh so from your perspective 2.8.7 doesn't fit with this particular kind of work.

Correct. Okay. And then 2.8.1 is just waste that's generated by the elderly person um example that we had earlier. So it's it's their waste, but they would need to have a big bin from Republic to put it into

and 2.8.1 is the one that deals with reusable and repable goods. And so a a 501c3 charitable organization can come in and collect those materials. It's all the other stuff that they can't collect, but they can certainly take repable and discardable or or um repable discards or reusable discards. Oh, but the issue then it seems then 5 years ago, it seems like it wasn't just the repable things. It was all the trash from that person's home.

Sure. If if it was repable or reusable, I don't know why a truckload of it would come to a transfer station to be to go to a landfill. That doesn't make sense to me. Thank you. Sure. Uh, further questions? I got Rick and then Joel. So, thank you, Julie. So, going in that sofa, um, what would be the proper procedure if the 90year-old had a destroyed sofa, he could go to her house, haul this sofa out to her front of the yard? He could, and then call you to come pick up. Feeling charitable, he could go haul it to the curb and we could pick it up. Sure.

Okay. So, that'd be all right. Thank you. I I I mean that would be asking a lot of Mr. Kirkpatrick, I think. But well, if he's paid for services, I mean she the 90-year-old can't lift the couch. I mean that's okay. Not most 90 year olds I know, but Okay. You never know.

Two other questions. Um I think we had the issue of trash. If he finds trash but doesn't have an address, does DEEQ require you because of liability issues on hazardous material to have an address for everything that comes to you? Uh for demolition material, we don't necessarily need an address, but we need some other information like um what year was the structure that was demolished built? You know, and that gives us some pretty big clues about the fact that there could be lead based paint or asbestous or some of the things we have to have we have to know are coming in and have to and could possibly need need to be disposed of differently or treated differently.

Okay, last question on the dumpster that Connor has at his business. Uh-huh. Is when that business opened, was that large dumpster always there or is that recent? Because uh I I don't know the answer to that

because what I'm my initial impression was the dumpster was not there and therefore that he was then hauling from the business to the dump where you needed to have the dumpster isn't complies with your requirements. I I don't I don't know the answer to how long he's had it. I think um your question is um how would we know if he he was in fact hauling trash from a home where he also picked up reusable items and brought them back and put them in his dumpster? And the answer is we wouldn't and and we wouldn't we wouldn't really ask that question necessarily. he can have a dumpster at his business and he can put waste in that dumpster and we don't generally ask customers where that's coming from unless um you know our trucks are are getting to the point where we have cameras and we can look at what's dumped in and if we can see sheetrock or something that we know we should ask questions about first then we might ask questions but that's a pretty rare occurrence. So, um, so you know, I've just given him a way to get around the rules, but, um, we wouldn't necessarily look in a dumpster and find somebody or ban them from having a dumpster, and we haven't done that.

Okay. Thank you. All right, further questions. I got Joel. Um, I first have a statement, then a question. Um, sure. Both are valuable commodities in our community

and, um, you two have not talked Um so my question is uh as a judicial judicial body if they haven't talked I I feel um we haven't given them a chance to resolve this issue and and unless they don't want to talk uh and um why would it come before us before they have resolved it themselves because you're both valuable members of our community and for us then to pick winners and losers when you two haven't come together and and tried to resolve the differences um I feel very uncomfortable with. Um so my question is um is is that a uh possibility in how we end this uh is that we require them to talk if they still disagree come back. So you were given in your packet that presentation from Jason there you were given um alternatives for actions and basically to you're looking at a complaint. Complaint is structured has criteria to it. So you could make an action to say that the complaint is unfounded. You can uphold the complaint or it's up to you're the you're the judicial body. It's your power to do what you need to do.

Mayor, yes. You'll also note that it does say that the date could be deferred. So, you could pause and to a different date and in the meantime ask for additional work to be done before making one choosing one of those alternatives. And there's that one, too. All right. Um Joel, are you good? Um yeah. Okay, good. Uh, Victoria.

So, I think I'm feeding off of what Joel said. We were might have been thinking the same kind of thing at the same time. Um, but I was thinking in terms of of harm and remedy. And it seems to me like not just uh I don't know if it's for us to determine here, but we know that you're not the only um uh waste disposal service that is that has an issue. So it seems like there has been from not just you but other people some perception of harm and uh if you could describe that harm um just describe the harm to the franchise for us just a little bit and then um remedy then I was going to say it seems like a remedy you've already talked a little bit about that you you guys welcome him coming in and talking to you about how what he could do, what he couldn't do. And so if you could talk about harm um briefly and then remedy.

I think the harm to the franchise is if if one person, one junk hauler is allowed to work outside of the guidelines of the franchise. There won't be one. There'll be many, many, many of them who come in. um you can buy a franchise for this online and they certainly don't tell you when you buy this franchise online to do this that you better check with the community you work in to see if it's allowable or not. And I think that's really um a disingenuous way to sell a business. But there are many ways that people think, hey, I could do that or I've got a pickup and I could work on the weekends and I could make a little extra cash. So yeah, the harm is many people coming in and then what happens is that our franch the franchise fee that gets paid goes down as it's as lots of these haulers come in, the franchisee is not able to regulate those haulers in any way. So if we get uh let's say we have an a hydraulic leak in a truck, we get a call right away usually from somebody at the city or somebody saying, "Hey, there's a spill here." and we're required to go out and clean that up. We have a lot there are a lot of requirements. We're required to report to DEEQ um all of the recycling that we pick up. And not only do we have to report what we pick up, but we have to report where it goes. And that location needs to report that they received that same amount for us. So, we can't just make those things up. So, I think the harm is that you dilute the franchise system to the point that it's no longer effective. You don't have any control. um you don't control his rates or maybe his rates are great or maybe he's giving it away but the you know 50 other haulers who come in are not and you don't control that. Um I'll give you an example. We know there's a company online called Big Red Dumpster. I think that's what it's called. And they advertise that they can work cheap. They just say they can work

cheaper than the local companies. And so people call them and or they get online and they order a dumpster and then those companies call us and they pay our franchised rate and they charge the customer more. And I think that's another issue too is that we have a lot of requirements and regulations to notify the customers to help when recycling changes or when rules or laws changed. And these other companies don't have that. It might not be that they don't that they're trying to be deceptive. It might just be that they don't know about these things. So yeah, I think when you start to dilute the franchise, you start to lose any control that you have.

And then if you could reiterate some of the remedies that or any new ones that you've thought of now or that as you see it with this situation. I think we would need to sit down and talk about, you know, let's be really transparent and honest about what you're hauling and let's talk about what we disagree with and what we agree with. And I think we just there just needs to be an understanding of that. But I think when you when you do that, you've got to look at the whole franchise. You can't take a sentence here and a sentence there and decide that you qualify for these exemptions. And I think that's really a part of the the communication gap here, too. Thank you.

Sure. All right. Uh, further questions? Got Indra? I just want to go back to what I asked a question. So, in the September 16th meeting minutes, it states, "Julie Jackson reviewed franchise exceptions, noting space exists for junk callers under current rules and does not recommend making amendments to the franchise at this point." So, you said that. Do you feel that? I do. I absolutely wouldn't make changes to the franchise. I think that's why we're here tonight. Why we It says space exists for jump callers under current rules.

Yes. The rules that I've the the way that I've explained it, the things that he can do and the things that he can't do under the current rules of the franchise. And if you want to call I mean I junk hauler. You can call him a junk hauler or waist hauler, but what it's it's really not the name of the business so much as what he's doing. And that's where I'm saying, yeah, I think there's room for everybody, but I don't think there's room for him to do everything that a franchised waste hauler can do. What's your definition of junk hauler?

Somebody who's hauling discards that other people don't want. So those could and and again the the the room the lane for him is to haul away reusable materials, recyclable, not just recyclable, but reusable or repable materials. But I I would say there isn't room for him to haul trash things that and by that I mean material that goes to a landfill. Material that would need to go to a transfer and be transferred to a landfill. Okay. I was just surprised to see that because this is seems different from what you've been saying here. I think it's what I've been saying.

I think I've been saying there's there's a lane for him. He's just stepped outside of his lane. We believe. Thank you.

Any further questions? Okay. Um I don't want to cut anybody off, but I'm just going to be reiterating of the procedure that we're going through here. we still have ava a availability for public comment and then um the complaintant still has a 5m minute window for a closing statement before council starts to discuss andor action. So thank you very much and if there's no further questions for republic services then I will open up for public comment on this topic only for this hearing. Is there anybody within the public that would like to speak on behalf of this hearing tonight? Specific topic only. Step up to the podium, state your name, where you live, and you have three minutes please to the topic at hand though.

Yeah. Thank you.

Excuse me. Nancy Lester Grant's past. And listening to this whole conversation, I think one piece is missing and that is there is a customer that needs these services and everything that I hear is not addressing the easiest, least expensive way for that customer to get their their goods uh removed from their property. And I think you need to really think about that piece of it. It's not just the franchise agreement. It's not just Connor, but there's a customer in there. It's your public, and you need to think about them. Thank you.

Thank you. Further comments, public, jump up, state your name, and you got three minutes. My name is Dwayne Lumpion, Grass Citizen. Um, my understanding is this is a franchise agreement between the solid waste management companies and the city of Grants Pass, but it sounds like the solid waste management companies are making all of the decisions. I don't see any documentation of a of a infraction that upheld this 5-year ban from I think they stated they had no evidence of of anything. Just their assumption that he was hauling goods that he shouldn't be hauling. I'm a general contractor and I hired Connor last weekend to come to a job site to assist with a demo of a deck, which he did, and I partly hired him because he has a contractor's license. I can legally hire him, according to the CCB, as a subcontractor. I couldn't just bring anybody in to do that job if they weren't an employee of mine. It requires him having a contractor's license. I think Connor's operated in good faith in trying to work with the franchise agreement and I think the solid waste management companies have basically been autonomous to make decisions about what is proper, what is not proper. There's conflicts with agencies here. I mean, the contractor's board has very serious rules in place that determine who can operate on a job site, who can do this, who can do that, who can haul waste, but they seem to be able to determine which contractors get to haul that garbage to the dump. And things were stated about debris taken to the dump and documentation needed. Just last weekend, I hauled two trucks and two trailers from that dump site to the Merlin dump. was never asked about where that came from, it was painted, what year that place was built, what content of the

paint was. I've hauled multiple multiple loads. The only time I've ever been questioned about my loads is if there's evidence of drywall or sheetrock and then they want documentation that shows that it is as best as free. Any other load has gone straight through with no questions of where it came from, what the contents of those demo loads are. I I feel like a lot of these rules are being applied very arbitrarily. I also know you're assuming that the solid waste management companies are operating in good faith, but the owner of one of the solid waste companies in town has filed multiple police reports against Connor Kirkpatrick, including false claims that he's living in an illegal rental. So, the owner of one of the solid waste management companies has taken this to a very personal level, but you're all under the assumption that they're operating in good faith, and that's just not the case here. Thank you. Any other public comment in regards to this hearing? Ra Brown Grants Pass. A decade or so ago, I was walking around town picking up trash and filling bags with it and ask the city where I can put it. and they said to put it in their trash cans that are all over town. But yeah, I didn't want to be having to haul all this trash to the dump and have to pay for it.

So I got free service from the city to take that stuff away, you know, to get and I also nowadays we have a free shelf out in front of my house. It's about yay long, yay high, four shelves. doesn't hold a whole lot. But of course, but people are just thrilled to be able to take their stuff to my shelf. And so, you know, good stuff or things that can possibly be fixed. And then again along the way there there's a quite quite a bit few people who just leave their trash mostly the the bags and the boxes that they bring it in. And I have to break down those boxes put things in the right things in the trash. Write things in the recycle and pay republic to haul that off. I've got the biggest bin that they have for residential use. I had eight people in my house. Now I only have five. But I still need that extra room for the trash that people take to my shelf and leave. And Republic's been good about picking it up in the trash bins that I have. And I think they are just making it too hard for a guy to uh make a living and do good for the world at the same time.

There's nothing wrong with running a little nonprofit, which my gosh, that's exactly what I'm running is a little nonprofit right out in front of my house. People come there, they could find stuff that Oh, wow. Cool. every day. I have seen that shelf empty and refill six times in one day.

Thanks, Ra. Next. Good evening. My name is Trent Carpenter. I am the general manager of Southern Oregon Sanitation and I'm here representing them. I think it's important to understand that we are talking about two very specific exclusions that Mr. Kapatrick has claimed that he meets. Um, he also talks about not having due process. I think it's also important to remember that there is a solid waste agency that's made up of members of this group and the county and the city of Cave Junction. They have heard his claims at least three different occasions and every time have ruled that he does not meet these exemptions. So, it's not just SOS or Republic arbitrarily deciding he doesn't meet them. There's been a governing body look at this and that's in that agency. The the two exemptions, one is for a contractor. I think Connor said it best when he said, "If you Google junk removal, you find my company." Junk removal has nothing to do with being a contractor. It's an absolute violation of the contract in the franchise to say, "I can come remove your junk. The contractor exemption is very limited in its scope for a very specific reason. It is in connection and the creation by that contractor for a job site, a contra contractor's site, it specifically says that if Connor was to submit, here's my permit, it's in my name, and here is construction and demolition from that site. it would be easy for him to come in. Minus the fact that he still advertises today that he's a junk removal company. That makes it very difficult to thread that needle. But we don't see construction and demolition coming in. We see just garbage, solid waste. Then there's the exclusion for a

charity. And that's another one of those that just recently happened. I believe it's in the last year. I'm not sure about that. That he received his 501c3. Wonderful. Great things. do wonderful things for this community. Again, that doesn't allow you to say that you're a junk hauling company and that you can go remove solid waste from somebody's house. That exclusion is specific to reusable items. So, every once in a while something would come in that you couldn't sell. That would make sense. That doesn't make sense that you have truckload after truckload after truckload of solid waste. He's asked for you to look at this. This has been viewed by the solid waste agency again multiple times. It has been ruled that it doesn't meet the exemptions. I don't believe it meets the exemptions and I think you can find that out for yourselves. These are very specific, very limited exemptions and again for us to try and thread the needle on well he's a junk hauling company online and on Facebook and what he advertises but this is not that load almost impossible. Thank you.

Thank you. Any further public comment? Come on up.

Go ahead and state your name. You got three minutes. Thank you.

Good evening. Uh I am Rob Brandis. I am the director of operations for Southern Oregon Sanitation. I was formerly the chair of the Solid Waste Agency for almost 20 years. So I'm going to kind of bounce between two hats. The Solid Waste Agency is a gift, for lack of a better term, that has existed here for a long time. uh all of our predecessors, there were city folks, there was county folks, there were representatives of both franchises had the foresight to put that together. And since that happened, that agency has overseen the franchises, which have contributed the environmental program fees and the franchise fees, which have successfully shut down Marlson, Kirby, and the Grants Pass station to the tune of millions, literally millions of dollars. So, one of the biggest charges of that agency is to make sure that there's substantial reserves for when things happen. We bonded Kirby. I want to say it was about 15 years ago. It was $1.8 million to put a cap on that thing. And the ongoing costs every year are probably $100,000. So, the franchise has big guard rails we got to keep in mind at a minimum. I think to Julian Trent's point about as cracks start to appear on that. I'm going to jump into my role as public works director for 25 years. We would spend $25,000 a year picking up roadside trash. And that was just using community corrections. That's as good a bang for the buck as we're going to get. We could have spent four times that. And I'll let you guess where the primary problems were. Upper River Road, Merling Deise, Pinerest. What do those have in common? They go to the dump. I will promise you another thing. It's not Republic's trucks. It's not Southern Oregon Sanitation's trucks dumping that stuff. That's not an an indictment of any specific haulers, but that's where it's coming from. So, there are reasons we have a formalized franchise setting that puts a lot of hurdles on both companies. In the four months that I've been out there, my eyes were opened. Our gate attendants are trained for 6 weeks just to learn how to analyze what they see come in. And they don't just willy-nilly take a shot. If we see an outlier construction, for example, it's pretty

apparent. It's framing. It's C. It's, you know, traditional CND materials. We get other ones where it looks like that. Just today, we dumped a box out. There was a cutup motor home on the bottom of that box. So, our folks have a tough job there at that gate saying, "Man, what is this?" And if you have a contractor who for about the third time in a month is bringing in banana peels, kitchen trash, all this kind of stuff, you say, "Man, I don't know if that really had anything to do with construction." So, it's easy to sit here and say it ought to be really black and white, but in the field it's not. I think these franchise agreements capture a lot of that. Is there work to do? Sure. And I think it absolutely put the solid waste agency in a spot of having to decide, are we going to adjudicate this? Hence, it landed here. Thanks. Thank you. Any further public comment?

All right. Seeing none, thank you for your participation. Uh we're going to bring it back. The complaintant has a 5m minute w for a closing statement. All right. I just uh wrote down a handful of things that I was going to respond to, so I apologize. kind of all over the place. Uh, let's see. Where did I start? Okay. So, so I've been to countless solid waste agency meetings attempting to resolve this issue. Um, so as far as saying I haven't attempted to resolve this issue, that's not true. I've gone to many solid waste agency meetings that they were at. So, we're past that. We're we're past just scheduling a meeting to try to meet with them. We're beyond that point of the process and we're here now. Um, also junk is a subjective term. Um, one man's trash is another man's treasure. Um, uh, also I am fully aware of the need to test demolition debris. Um, anytime I have drywall or carpet or anything that needs to be tested, I am well aware that that needs to be tested and I have those materials tested before I dispose of them cuz even if I have to drive an hour away to Ashland or wherever, I need that test wherever I go. So, I do that already. I'm well aware of that. Um, also, I've never received any communication from Douglas County. Um, I know that Trent's family um operates uh transfer stations up there. So, they may have started a ban on me up there, but I have never received any communication of any ban from any facility from Douglas County. So, that's either not true or I

have been yet to have been informed of that. Um, and also the other bands of all these other facilities were orchestrated by Southern Oregon organ sanitation and they happened after I joined the mattress recycling program. On March 18th, I came to that solid waste agency meeting. I said, "Hey, I have a nonprofit organization. I I fit this exemption and I also joined this mattress recycling program." 3 days later, I was banned from rogue disposal in White City. That's a direct retaliation on me for one speaking out about my exemption and for two meeting a state mandate. And so for them to say he's been banned from other places. Yeah. Cuz they coordinated a ban because I'm fitting state recycling mandates that they're refusing to do. Um and also back to the Bed Bath and Body Works. I didn't unload their dumpster. I I only took the stuff that didn't fit in their dumpster. Um so I I'm not sure if there was a confusion on that or whatever. Um they she brought up uh my mother issue. Uh Trent banned my mom from SOS when she tried to bring her own load of trash into the dump. My mom's a landlord. She has tenants that leave junk in her house. She has a pickup truck so she can haul that junk to the transfer station. They banned my mother from going to the dump as a landlord trying to clean up her own property because they thought cuz she's my mom, she must be hauling my junk. That is a flagrant misuse of the rights. And that was SOS, not even Republic. That's why I didn't even involve this here, but she brought that up. So, uh, anyway, getting lost. Um, um, so there's no point in sitting down for a meeting if they are unwilling to honor the exemptions. Either they are forced to honor the exemptions or they won't honor the exemptions. She literally said, "The lane that I can exist in is a lane where I don't go to the transfer station." So, in her own words, they're not going to lift the ban if we sit down for a meeting. Um, and also to the point of the

90-year-old with the couch, do we want couches on curbs all over town? Is that what you want me to do? Do you want me to go around town and just drag all the stuff to the curb and then just have piles of trash all over on every curb? I can put a couch on every curb if that's how you want me to operate, but that seems ridiculous. You'll just have couches on every curb. Um, the other thing, there's materials that they don't even take at the dump, like paint. You can't bring paint to the dump. If a homeowner has paint and they how are they supposed to get rid of it? They call me and I take it to Diamond Home Improvement where they recycle the paint. There's other items and and and you can't bring paint to the dump. And I know what you can and can't bring to the dump. I'm well aware. I I know what you can and can't do and I am more than willing to comply with all the rules and the regulations. Um um let's see. Not everyone has the time or the location to do an estate sale. Um, so sometimes it's easier for organizations like mine. Um, why is a multi-billion dollar corporation fighting so hard to show down shut down a local small business? Uh, councelor King is spot on with his interpretations. Repable or cleanable discards means something someone discarded that may be repairable or cleanable. That means a broken or dirty item. That's what repairable or cleanable discards means. In other words, it doesn't have to be immediately reused. If I determine that it's not cost-effective to repair or clean that item, that's when that waste is generated by me. Thank you.

Thank you.

All right. So, that concludes all of our participation at this moment in time. So, we're going to bring it back to council for further discussion or action. And I guess you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm looking at this as you have a complaint that we are overseeing at this moment in time in regards to two franchise exemptions within the franchise agreement 2.8.1 and 2.8.7. So it is your guys's as a council you are hearing this matter and I I I'm interpreting it as you guys want to be the interpreters of these two exemptions and I see your hands up. I will bring them back to you in a second. So um look at this as you will and we will start discussion. I had Victoria first and then Joel and then Indra. Victoria,

it seems to me that uh Republic Services is willing to sit down with Mr. Kirk Patrick and it also seems to me that we one of our choices is that we can defer council action. So, I would like to make a motion that we defer council action and give the opportunity for um Republic Services to meet if they choose. Mr. Kirk Patrick said he probably didn't want to do that, but it seems like it would be an easy way for this to be um uh worked out. Um it's always better when the two parties are most close to uh the issue, work it out together. So um I make a motion to defer uh with the hope that I don't think council can say that we are mandating that these two meet but with the hope uh that the two parties would meet to discuss what can be be done and can't be done. So I guess for the purposes of clarity though, my motion is just to defer uh this um defer this action.

Okay. So there's a uh motion on the floor. We're not stopping discussion. So I'm just reiterating the motion. The motion on the floor is to um defer council decision to a later date. Yeah, it should be basically probably to a date certain because there is a a a a complaint that is to council and so we should probably uh to a date certain um let's say can we say 30 days or March 4th meeting? Uh till the March 4th meeting. Okay.

Okay. And your your kind of line of question is is you didn't know if the council could uh um request or mandate a a mediation or whatever. I don't see why you can't. Oh, okay. Well, then I would also like to request that the two parties do meet. Am I wrong in that? Because realistically, if if you're saying that you want to postpone it for a date certain because so that they can meet. Yeah. Yeah. Or you could say highly recommend. I'm I'm I highly recommend that they meet before the March 4th. Okay. 4th meeting.

So you're to to reiterate the motion um the motion on the table is to postpone council dis um decision until the March 4th with a high recommendation of uh two-party mediation before that happens and a second. Does that satisfy you u Victoria? Perfect. Yes. Okay. So the motion is on the table with a second. Uh, further discussion. I got uh Joel, Indra, and then Rob and Seth and then Rob. Joel.

So, I'm looking at the notes of the Solid Waste Agency, and Rick, I think you were at that meeting. Um, so I'd like to hear from you. Um, I'd just like to quote from that meeting so that we all have the facts of what's true and what's on paper. Um, Julie Jackson from Republic Services reviewed franchise exceptions from Republic Services, noting space exists for, she called it, junk haulers under current rules, noting space exists for junk haulers under current rules. That that that's what's on the paper and does not recommend making amendments to the franchise at this point. So Rick, you were there. Could you give us context to that?

My best recolle recollection was that Connor was going directly from his site to the landfill where he needed a dumpster on site, which he now has on site. So it my recollection back then he did not have a dumpster. He was just hauling it directly. Okay. So it with the information and the presentation it was back then that that's what I recall and Rob Brandis could also respond to that as well if you would like a second um viewpoint. Thank you

Jason. Well I I was going to say Rick Rick is right on target. That was the context. It was also discussed, councelor King, you know, that the junk haulers can operate by offering the the cleanup, the property cleanup services and then utilizing dumpster services um of the franchises. So, the rules didn't need to change. They just may not be hauling. What they would be doing is loading up the recyclables and the clean discards that they would then put into the thrift store, but the trash trash would then be going into dumpsters in a separate sid stream. That was the discussion as I recollected it. We didn't maybe get at the verbatim minutes, but that was kind of the gist. Okay, good.

Yep. All right, further discussion. I got Indra, Seth, and Rob. Andra,

so this seems pretty cut and dry to me. I mean, without making any judgment on who's right or not right, he said, she said, I I think it's kind of irrelevant here because it's been 5 years since he's gone to the dump. Maybe he didn't do things right 5 years ago. We don't know. They're saying what he needs to do. The rules are clear. Connor's saying he knows what he needs to do. he's got the dumpster on his site now that he's going to follow the rules. And so in my mind, you know, the complaint is that he's still banned and he shouldn't be banned. So in my mind, the complaint should be upheld. He gets to go to the dump and do the things properly and legally as to what he's saying he's going to do. And then Republic monitors that to see if he's really doing that going forward. And if he is, it's all good. If he's not, then there are repercussions to that. In my mind, it's I I don't see why we would defer it and make them meet. Further discussion, I got Seth.

Yeah. I mean, I I think the complaint should be unfounded just strictly on the basis of that those exemptions currently as they stand, they're being broken, right? So he's not following them as they stand. So but that does not mean that I think I think they should meet beyond this and they can come up with what that looks like. Um so I don't think it needs to be deferred either, but I don't think it should be uh I don't think it meets the requirements for an exemption because then we're basically saying that what he's saying is accurate and not what Republic service is saying is accurate, if that makes sense. Um I do want to say, you know, I'm obviously pro business. I think this is a tough one because this is basically two businesses, you know, going at it right here in front of us. Um I, you know, the the multi-billion dollar corporation concept, while I get it, um you know, all companies have to start somewhere. Uh you know, Southern Organ Sanitation started as a small company. So, you know, it's not all, uh corporations that are, you know, the bad guys, I will say. Um but, you know, I I would recommend beyond this. Again, I I think it's unfounded just based on what I'm I'm reading. Um, but I would still like to see Mr. Kirkpatrick and Republic sit down and, you know, review the exemptions and figure out how he can fit within those exemptions. Um, I think the issue was resolved because the solid waste agency ruled on this already. Um, and so, you know, here we are debating it again, but that is their job. and you know they we had public comment that said that um they they did listen to the exact same thing and they ruled on that. So I'm going to go with that. Um you know I think Julie mentioned you know that this could set a precedent and I think that's accurate. Um you know cuz again if we if we say that he meets all the requirements based on what he's saying then anyone could go and follow

that. Um I'm not saying he doesn't meet any of them. I I think there's there's areas um and so I think they need to sit down I and talk those out. I I think for for me it's it's unfounded um because I don't I don't want to set a precedence today. Further discussion I got uh Rob, Victoria, and Kathleen. Rob.

Yeah. I um I very much uh agree with what Indra just said. To me, this is a logical straight line. Um, you know, I I I believe that the um complaint is is founded and I I think that counselors who are at this point saying that they want the two of them to get together, I think is just, you know, in a fantasy. Uh, one of the parties has already said that we're past that point and that's why he filed uh the complaint. So to hope that somehow miraculously that they're going to agree and everyone's going to trust each other from this point forward, I think it's just I think it's silly. um you know I don't know uh on customer dispute resolution on slide six of the packet uh 8.1.3 you know it's to me that's this is where this has to go because it says if either party disagrees with the city's decision either party may submit the matter to be decided by neutral binding arbitration in accordance with the rules the American Arbitration Association and the rules and the laws of the state of Oregon not by court action except as provided by Oregon law, etc., etc., etc. To me, council should make a decision tonight, and at that point, uh, either one of these parties can then go to arbitration because the bottom line is we're going around, we've just gone around in a circle for about 3 hours, um, with this. And there, these two parties are going to continue to go around in circles. And to think that anything is miraculously going to change, it's not. We've heard that. It should be very clear. So, I'm I'm ready to um to act on this. And and again I feel that his um his complaint is is founded and uh the fact that essentially one one party here the uh the franchisee has um uh has been the uh as I the expression I used earlier the judge during and executioner here I think is is completely uh I think it's very unfair and and and I and I would believe

that uh any of the associated like we had someone from public Tonight we had someone from SOS. Not shocking that they agree with each other. Of course they're going to agree with each other as is every uh um uh transfer station that is controlled by them. It's going to be unanimous, right? Of course it's going to be I mean that's just that's just silly to think that that was independent view cuz it's not. Um so again I I'm I believe it's founded and I believe that um if uh Republic then feels that they were uh that the council is an error they can take it to binding arbitration which is where this is going to end up anyway. But um that's my feeling.

Thanks Rob. Uh next up to discussion Victoria and then Kathleen. Victoria.

Well the complaint was about 2.8.1 and 2.8.7 8.7 from my understanding and it seems clear that uh that Republic was seeing that those were not being um being met and and uh that is where the disconnect is and then but I'm also hearing from Mr. Kirk Patrick that now I have uh I now I do have a contractor's license. So, um, so the business has changed, but he's still, um, banned and that's why they need to talk and, uh, and start a new, it seems, it just seems to me and it could be very, it very well could be that this will go to mediation, but if, uh, if it were tonight, I mean, I would vote that no, under the current um, way that it was presented, the things that were being brought to uh republic services do not meet the exemptions of 2.8.1 or 2.8.7 8.7 and uh so it it is it isn't clear um and we have franchise for trash disposal because it's in I mean because cities have to yeah I mean you have to have an industry that is going to be charged with doing that and they do have to make up their own industry standards just like any industry does. um they are the exp they become the experts on on this this service on this industry because that's what they do. Um so it would make sense that it would be unanimous because they are the industry um standard. They just they they've been doing it. They know what to do. They know how to do it and they know what

should be done and what shouldn't be done. And for me it was answered that with the with the harm and the remedy. Victoria, I'm sorry I have to interrupt you, but we're coming on 9:00 and you know we have to do I don't want to interrupt. No, if you take a pause, you can get somebody to motion that we can go forward past 9:00. Rick. Oh. Oh. For procedure. Procedure. I'd like to make a motion that we go past 9:00.

Second. All in favor? Yes. Yay. Okay. Go ahead, Victoria. Sorry. Yeah. So, um it's maybe it seems to me and it's just kind of um my way of looking at it, but no, you do you don't meet these you do not meet the exceptions, but there could be something new that you're doing that does. And that's why these two parties need to meet. And uh and I don't think I it just doesn't seem like hearing from many people in the industry tonight that they are just trying to pick on one business. I mean it it wouldn't even make sense to do that. So um if they could talk and come together uh it would be better for it would be better for them. Um because what I would vote on tonight myself would be that no, it does not seem it's not uh generated by a contractor. It's trash. And that um it it it just didn't seem to meet the exceptions. But if the two were going to meet and they could talk again about, okay, well, this is what you could do. Like for instance, the job um there was public comment that said there was there was deck, you know, a deck was torn apart, you know, and if you had if you brought with you the um the license for the construction, sure, then that that would be something that you could do. Uh but not under these, you can't because your particular business does doesn't meet these two exceptions. So um so that's that's why I made the motion.

Thank you Victoria. Um next discussion I have Kathleen and then Indra. Kathleen. Well I just wanted to say that I think that mediation is a viable um option because from personal experience uh with a business I had another business. Uh I was pretty disgruntled about having to go to mediation. But when I did, it brought a solution that really solved the problem and we didn't have to go to small claims court and we didn't have to do anything further than that. I thought mediation worked really well and it is effective. Thank you. Uh further discussion I got Indra. We do have a motion on the table right now but we are trying to get as much discussion as possible first.

Yeah. Um, so I think we're we're really uh damaging someone who's trying to do a small business based on something he did 5 years ago. And so I think when you're when when I hear people say um counselors say he's doing this and that, we don't know what he's doing. It's been five years and he's telling us he knows and he'll do it correctly. like he he has a deck job. So tomorrow if he goes to get the demolition of the deck, he can't take it to the dump and so because he's banned. So we're assuming on things that he's still doing which he may not and we're not even giving the chance to him to correct and make it right. My other point is that if we don't if we find the complaint is unfounded, there is no incentive for republic to meet with him. Period. And then what does he do? I don't know. Do you file another complaint? What do you do after that? Only by holding that the complaint is valid does that get Republic to the table to talk. So, I think we're really um I think it I just believe that we should give the benefit of the doubt to a small business owner to try and make things right this time around. Thank you. Um we can continue discussion, but we do have motion on the table to uh postpone decision to March 4th and a vote yes on that will not make a decision tonight. It will postpone the decision till March 4th. Voting no on that motion will leave it open-ended. So further discussion.

Question. Part of that motion was that we highly suggest that the correct I'm just generalizing. Okay. Thank you, Indra. So question. So what happens if they don't meet? It's up to the council to make another motion. Oh, if they don't, sorry. If they don't meet, uh, well, basically the motion was highly encourage them to meet before the next, um, decision as part of the motion. If they don't meet, you still at the March 4th meeting have this in front of you to make a determination on whether it's founded or not. Yep. We're just So, any further discussion?

Okay, there's a motion on question. So, go ahead. So, uh, on the, uh, the postponement date. So, at that point, public comments's already been taken. So that wouldn't happen again. Correct. Procedurally or are we going to go through another 3 hours of Robin? Yeah. If you're taking in new information, then you likely need to have it open to additional public comment. If no information was being provided, but it's just a continuation, then that would be different. But I believe you're potentially going to be hearing from the other parties which would then require probably a public comment. So it's could be an unlimited time again.

Yeah, you would go into another proceeding. Very inefficient, but thank you. Um, okay. So motion on the table is to postpone to March 4th with criteria. Um, we've made a lot of discussion. Voting yes on this would postpone your decision to March 4th. Voting no would leave the dis open for further motions. Um Robbie, you want discussion?

Yeah, just so bottom line is whichever way we if we were to decide tonight, whichever way we decide tonight, again, either party, if either party, the law says if either party disagrees with the city's decision, either party may submit the matter to be decided by neutral binding arbitration in accordance with the rules, the American Arbitration Associ association, etc., etc. So, if we decide this tonight, either party can then take it forward to an arbitrator and they would then come up with a final decision. Thank you. Um, we'll go ahead with a vote. Uh, Victoria, yes. Um, Seth, yes. Uh, Rick, yes. Rob, no. Um, Indra, no. Joel,

yes. Kathleen, yes. Okay, so we've got 5 to two. So this uh this council decision is postponed to March 4th with the encouragement of two parties meeting before that time and I guess presenting more information. Thank you very much for all your participation. Uh next on the agenda tonight is ordinances amending development code article 17 lots and creation of lots regarding property line vacations. And do we have Yeah, it's legislative hearing. There you go.

Okay. At this time, I will open a public hearing to consider this application as filed. The um the application is for the ordinance amending development code. As I stated, we will begin the hearing with a staff report followed by presentation by the applicant. Um statements by persons in favor of the application, statements by persons in oppositions. Can you guys keep it down a little bit, please? Thanks. Um, application opportunity for an additional comment by sta applicant and staff. After that has occurred, the public comment portion will be closed and the matter will be discussed and act upon by the council. Is there anybody anyone present who wishes to challenge the authority of the council to hear this matter? Seeing none, uh, do do any counselors wish to abstain from participating in this hearing or declare a potential conflict of interest? Seeing none, are are there any counselors who wish to disclose discussions, contact, or other exparte information they have received prior to this meeting regarding this application? Seeing none, this is a hearing. The decision of the council is based upon specific criteria which are set forth in the development code. All testimony which applies in this case are noted in the staff report. If you wish if you would like a copy of this report, please uh make a note to the city manager and one can be provided. It is important to remember if you fail to r to raise an issue with enough detail to afford the council and the parties an opportunity to respond to the issue, you will not be able to appeal to the land use board of appeals based on that issue. The hearing will now proceed with a report from Brad. Thank you.

Thank you, mayor, members of the council. Um, I apologize because I think this is going to be far less interesting than what you just talked about. Um so this is a proposal to amend the development code in one very specific small section um related to vacating property lines. Um this is in article 17 and it would in essence change the authority to make these decisions from you uh to the uh planning director or the community development director um which is going from a type four to a type one decision and it relates to your goal related to infrastructure. Um this originated late 2024. The council did uh give direction to to staff um as you know, you've already received a couple of these applications in front of you um to look at changing the co the code so that it would um put the authority um away from the council into staff. Um on December 10th, the Urban Area Planning Commission held a public hearing and they did unanimously recommend uh approval of this application. The development code review task force uh the body that you created has been meeting for a few months now. They haven't formally talked about this topic, but um informally we did bring it up, let them know that the application was coming to you. Um and the the folks on that task force were supportive of this as well. Um one of which is a planning commission member, but there's six other members on there as well. Um we took a look at the last 5 years uh 2020 to 2025 to see how many of these applications have come through. There's been 49. Uh that does include street plug vacations. And all 49 of those applications have been approved. there has not been um a single denial.

Here's a little bit of detail comparing the two. So on the top row here is the type four. That's the way it currently is where city council is the decision maker. Um current fee is about $770. Um on-site public hearing posting notice is a yes. So, we uh all type four applications require that there be a physical property posting of the notice. So, basically an on-site notice of the application. Um that's true for all of our type 3es and type fours or most of our type threes and all of our type four applications. Um and we also in addition to the property posting require a radius notice of 200 ft. Um that whole thing takes about 45 days. If you approve this tonight, that would go to a type 1B. U that would make the authority the director. The fee would drop about $300. Um there would not be an on-site notice posted. Uh we would still do a m a mailing uh to all the property owners within a 100 ft. That's what we do with other type ones. Um and it would take about 30 days. So uh bottom line here, it saves some staff time. Uh we don't have to prepare presentations. uh we would not have to do a full-blown staff report. Um it also takes uh the application time from the when they apply to the final decision is shorter. Um shaves off about two weeks, could be a little more, could be a little less depending on the timeline. Um there's four required criterion to uh make changes like this in the code. You've seen this a few times now. Um the planning commission did review these four criterion and they found that they were satisfied. Um the criteria to approve these would not change. Um staff would still need to go through that process. So it's the same

criteria and that doesn't change. Um call to action uh here tonight. There is no there have been no written public comments uh that were submitted for this tonight. Uh there is no uh 120day deadline and the planning commission did recommend approval. So and there's a few alternatives for you. So I got a quick question um and then I'll let council. So this is stated as just just for clarification. Um uh lots and creation of lots regarding property line vacations. So this would fall in the realm of lot split, minor lot split or just moving of a lot line. Just removing

removing a lot line. Correct. So taking two lots and making it into one in general terms. Okay. Thanks for the clarification. Any further questions, Joel? So Brad, has um the council ever denied any of these in the past? They have not. Okay. Thank you. Do you want to be the first? Just kidding. Any further questions? Sorry, it's it's late in the night. I'm kind of getting a little campy. I I should clarify we looked at the last 5 years. It's possible that prior to that there there was a I appreciate the mayor mayor's humor. Thanks, uh, Indra. But if it was denied, they could appeal to the council. Correct. Is that

right? if if it didn't go the way they wanted. All appeals of the council decision have to go to the land use board of appeals. So it would go higher. Thank you. No lower. Question. Her question, right? Your question was if the they wanted to appeal the director's decision, it would come to council. Is that your question? Yeah. Right. That was Sorry. No, I thought you were talking about the prior. Yeah. No, that's correct. the uh any appeal of a director's decision goes to the planning commission first um and then if it's not resolved there then it would go to the council. Okay, that's what So you're talking about like a specific case?

Yeah. Well, you're not just skipping over us completely. Any further questions for Brad? Seeing none. Thank you, Brad. Thank you. Um at this time, we'll open it up for public comment. Is there anybody uh in the public that would like to present in favor of this application? Is there anybody in the public that would like to present in opposition of this application? All right. Seeing none, I'll bring it back to council for further discussion and or action. Kathleen,

I move to approve the ordinance amending development code 17 lots and creation of lots and have it read by title only first reading. All right, we have a motion on the table for uh approval with first reading. Is there a second from Rick and any further discussion? All right. Uh Kathleen, how do you vote? Yes. Joel, yes. Indra, yes. Rob, yes. Rick, yes. Seth, yes. Victoria, yes. All right. Motion passes for first reading. An ordinance of the council of the city of Grants pass amending development code article 17 lots and creation of lots regarding property line vacations.

Thank you very much. Um, ordinance has been read for the first time. Seth? Yeah. I move to approve the ordinance amending development code article 17 lots and creation of lots and have it read by title only, second reading. All right. There's a motion for second reading with a second from Joel. And how do you vote? Seth, yes. Victoria, yes. Kathleen, yes. Joel, yes. Indra, yes. Rob, yes. Rick, yes. Thank you. Passes for second reading. An ordinance of the council of the city of Grants Pass amending development code article 17 lots and creation of lots regarding property line vacations.

Thank you. All right. Next on the agenda will not happen as a previous motion has postponed it. So we will go to general public comment. This is an opportunity for the public to address the city council on items not related to a public hearing or council action item for the council. The intent is to provide information that is pertinent to the city's jurisdiction. Each speaker will be given two minutes to address the council as one body, not two individuals. At the conclusion of public comment, council will have the opportunity to respond if they so choose. This meeting will proceed in effective and courteous manner. Citizens and council members will be allowed to state their positions in an atmosphere free from slander, threats, or other personal attacks. Signs or placards, outbursts of applause, campaigning for public office, or other disruptive behavior will not be tolerated. If you have a question regarding any government provided service, or a current city policy, please contact the city manager's office in an attempt to resolve that matter. All right. I have three cards here and looks like uh Ra Brown, you're up. Please restate your name and you have two minutes. Ra Brown grants pass. Coal is the only fossil fuel. It was formed only in the carbonation carbonatious era when trees didn't rot because fungi could not use use lignon. Trees died, fell and piled up. As dirt covered them, they formed charcoal and

slowly fossilized into coal. The carbonatous era ended when fungi evolved to use lignon. Oil and natural gas are not fossil fuels. They come not from ancient land animals but from organic mud that builds up on oceanic fl plates that eventually slide under continental plates. the mud lubricating the process and refined in the upper layers of the mantle from the churning of magma, heat, and pressure. I figured this out over a decade ago. Last year, I found an article in Live Science, North America is dripping down into the Earth's mantle by Sasha Pair, April 2nd, 2020. 2025. The mud at the top of this plate below the center of the continent is refined into water, salt, oil, and natural gas. Being lighter than melting rock, they are pushed toward the surface. Springs of fresh and mineral water are common and keep rivers running. Salt gathers in caverns near the surface. The carbonatous portion, oil and natural gas sometimes finds cracks that reach the surface, which is how mankind discovered tar pits and use tar for sealing Moses basket and ships. In 1859, oil was brought to the surface in Pennsylvania into kerosene.

Thank you. All right, I got two other cards, but I'm assuming these people are gone, but I will announce it anyways. Uh, Jax. All right, thank you. Uh, Seth. All right, thank you. That concludes uh our portion of general public comment. Next on the agenda is our consent agenda. Can you please put that on the screen for us? Uh, I have been not notified of any items being starred or otherwise. So the consent agenda is as shown. I would be looking for councel for some action. Victoria,

I move to approve the consent agenda as written. Thank you. Is a second from Seth. It's been motioned and seconded to approve the consent agenda as shown. Seth or I mean sorry. Victoria, yes. Seth, yes. Rick, yes. Rob, yes. Indra, yes. Joel, yes. Kathleen, yes. All right, consent agenda passes. Thank you very much. Next on our agenda tonight is matters for mayor and council. And at this moment in time, we would be appointing members to our first 40 ft citizens advisory committee first and then we can get into discussions. Kathleen,

um I had also two things I wanted to Absolutely. We're going to get this one done first. Do we have We don't have a presentation. I don't Bradley has anything. We're just needing a representative uh from council to be on the first 40 committee. Oh, apologize that I didn't read that part. It's appointing a counselor. Rob, yeah, this uh this has been an item of interest for me for about 5 years. I brought it to six years actually. I brought it to uh the prior council that prior to when I was on uh um and I'd like to actually um be a part of it. I'd like to represent the council um in this process. Anybody else? Oh, Indra.

Uh yes. I would like to ask my fellow counselors just as a courtesy. It's kind of nice sometimes, especially if there's something controversial or that we might have different opinions on to have discussion before someone just jumps into a motion because it makes it really confusing to discuss. I mean, we can do it. You have discussion and do the motion, but I just think out of courtesy, it's nice because sometimes I don't know which way I'm going. And I would like to hear people's discussion first um before I even decide. Um can I put a pause on that first? Yeah. Cuz we we want to get through the appointment of of the council member to the committee first.

I thought we were in matters. We we are, but we we we want to we want to get a representative from our body to to be I'm so sorry. I'm tired. I'm I'm going to bring it back to you after that. Uh Seth, yeah, I'll nominate Rob for that decision. Okay. So, we got one nomination for Rob to be the liaison for the first 40 ft citizens advisory committee. Second from Joel. Any further discussion on that appointment? Seeing none, um Seth, yes. Victoria, yes. Kathleen. Joel, yes. Indra, yes. Rob, yes. Rick, yes. All right, Rob will be our liaison to the advisory committee. Thank you very much. Now, Indra, you have the floor.

Well, I think I was I think I was finished, but you know, just out of courtesy to have a little discussion prior helps me to um think about it before motions are made. It's just helpful. I'm just asking for courtesy, not of course anyone can make a motion at any time and I respect that, but um I'm just asking and thank you for um airing your concerns. I hopefully you guys do notice that I try to make sure that everybody does get a voice in all of this and make sure that we do have plenty of discussion as was shown in in previous here where we had a a motion up front, but we did go through a healthy bit of discussion before we put that to a vote. So, I'm very cognizant of that, but it it's it's um your your concerns have been been heard. Thank you. Um any further matters from council

Kathleen? Two. Okay. You only get one, but if you're nice, I'll give you two.

So, I just wanted to give you a little update from the community outreach panel for Parker's Place Village. Um the meeting's purpose as it was uh defined by the group is to review community feedback opportunities for improvement and ensure follow-th through. Um it was uh consensus that the role of the uh community outreach panel would be accountability. Um they stated that they put out a neighbor notification process. Uh in direct outreach in compliance with the city contract agreement. Um there's still some um discrepancy on that. uh as uh these notices were only sent to uh property owners which has not trickled down to the renters. So I'm going to have to ask the panel to reconsider some of who they're notifying for this. Some of these renters have no contact with their uh their land owners whatsoever. Um they have uh established um a email parkerplacevillage@gmail.com and an official Facebook page. Although with the Facebook page they've turned the comments off which I thought was interesting. Um so um let's see and they are meeting the fourth Friday of each month. So if anybody has

anything to bring to Seth or I for the panel um we'll be meeting the fourth Friday of each month. Yeah. I think Chief Hensman, I'll take you up on meeting at the police station moving forward. I think that'd be easiest. Just a side note. I saw you I think you mentioned it in an email. Yeah, I mentioned an email. Absolutely. Happy to satisfy that need. And you're going to notify the everybody in there. Okay.

That was one. The second uh business uh thing that I had to uh bring was um an interesting thing that happened uh this last week when I tried to go to agenda setting um there was a discrepancy about the laws and uh which I wasn't informed about as when I got there um I was denied uh to attend the meeting even though there wasn't a quorum of counselors Um, I was told that there were new laws. Well, Stephanie had just simultaneously sent out uh public meet uh law public meeting laws training and so I took the training and there was nothing in the training that said that um under quorum um could meet in the agenda setting meeting because that isn't a decision-making body. That's just a agenda setting. There's no vote taken there. there's no um decision making happening there. So, I just wanted to um bring it back to council about what everybody thinks about other counselors attending the meetings if there is no quorum in those. So under an interpretation of the current Oregon state meeting law, we had determined that if we had a meeting of agenda setting with myself, council president, council vice president, and then an additional floating council member, then that was advised to be too close to a quorum

because there is decision making that could be argued happens in the agenda setting, meaning that we're setting precedent going forward on on what items the council would be seeing within their agenda. Um so if you wanted to weigh in on that as well, Stephanie.

So there were a couple of concerns um that were raised. Um, first was the the my understanding is there were supposed to be four council members at that meeting plus the mayor. Um, while it doesn't quite meet the quorum requirements, if you have four council members, that's a tie vote with the mayor being a tiebreaker. So, there's some concern about that. It's not tech it would not technically be a violation of quorum though for purposes of the meeting. The other piece to it had to do with more along the lines of that many council members receiving information outside of a public meeting. Um, some of the topics that were on the agenda for that meeting were ones that would cross the line where it would be actually receiving and discussing information itself. Um, I believe it was the legislative priorities components. Because of the nature of that conversation, there was concern that it would then lead to half if not more of the council obtaining information outside of a public meeting. And that was we just wanted to make sure that there was some precautions taken particularly when the council procedures say that the only only two council members should be involved in the agenda setting. It should be the council president plus one rotating and that there would only be two. So expanding that to four was outside of council procedures. Well, I had checked with the vice president and he was out of town that week, so I knew that he wasn't going to be attending. And so I I agree. If it's four, maybe that could be questionable, but there was only going to be three at that meeting.

So

I verified it by being there. So we've we've changed we changed our format going forward where we basically will have myself the council president uh the council vice president will not be in attendance of the um agenda setting meeting. So that leaves the breath of us having a rotating council member and we'll will be well with underneath scrutiny. Um, I personally kind of took it upon myself as to walk a little bit more gender genderly around the new Oregon meeting laws and don't want to tiptoe in the gray area. So, basically, that's that's kind of what why we why we've ch changed things a little bit, but going forward, we're we're we're going to go with um council president, myself, and then a rotating council member.

Where are those new laws? I did it wasn't even brought up in this training that I took that was the new laws that we're referencing um was the concerns about serial meetings which we we talked about before and the ch which changed in I believe it was the 2023 legislative session. I think they took effect in 2024. Those were the laws that we were concerned about with public meetings, making sure that all information was being received by coun by the vast majority of council at a public meeting, which with the topic of the legislative priorities, how what we expected from that discussion was going to be outside of just straight this goes on an agenda and how on what date kind of a topic. It was going to be more substantive than that. And there was concerns. Okay. So, my training was from 2024 and um there was nothing said in there about that. I mean, yeah, it just says you didn't I mean, yeah, if you have a quorum, that's obvious, but you have anything under a quorum and there were only going to be three at that meeting. But there's also the OGC interpretation of the new laws which didn't come out until July of 2025. And that's what has given us a lot of pause over the last few months because OGC's interpretation says that two council members talking to people individually can mean that everybody has a violation regardless of whether or not they knew that other people were talking to others. So it's a much broader definition and a much broader scope that OGC interprets. And so maybe in the training that you watched, maybe it wasn't quite they weren't aware of OGC's interpretation at that time because that didn't come out until July

and can you send that to us? The interpretation the OGC I believe I've handed it out twice. You have? Yes. I I believe I provided it at the training last uh the strategic planning. It was in the strategic planning. Yep. I I distribute it then. Okay. Thank you.

Yeah. Just to reiterate, I mean, the decision to kind of slim that meeting down was more for the the whole of the body of the council to make sure that we were complying with the interpretations of that Oregon meeting law. And it wasn't to exclude anybody. It wasn't wasn't to be any of that. We're just trying to, you know, be within the realms of I don't want to play in the gray area. Hopefully, that's okay. and stick stick with uh your rotating um agenda setting slot and you guys can talk amongst yourself if if you can't make it or you want to um if you see an agenda setting coming up that you want to be involved in. Um you have every right to contact that person that's going to be in there, that floating council member and trade spots with them if you want. Any further matters for Joel and then Victoria? Joel.

Um, I need some help from Aaron on this one. Um, the Chamber of Commerce uh hires an outside firm to do a survey. Then they present that survey at the hive and I think all of you have been invited to it. That survey also includes feedback for city government, county government, um, different aspects of our community. Um, c do you have the date on that, Erin? I I know it was sent out to all council. Yes, I do have the date on that and u above and beyond the date. The date is the 20th and when they're doing that at the hive, although we are having a special presentation, BR is going to be presenting to the city council that same information.

Oh, that's great. That's great. Okay. Okay. The other thing I I just just at the top of my head, uh proper procedures and notification when people don't meet like with what Brad does in land use. Um, and it applies to our earlier case. It's it's important that we document in letters uh if somebody's banned from something and the reason why that um that it's on a piece of paper, not just a verbal thing and and and has duration and the reason why that happens. And uh any government matters where we do that um that that's fairly important I think so that we're not arbitrary and capriccious. Victoria,

what time is that hive uh presentation on the 20th? 8:30. Thank you. Uh and that the only thing that I wanted to say was um Kathleen mentioned that there were not going to be four people at that council meeting. So, it would have been fine if she stayed. So, it's unfortunate that she didn't wasn't able to. So, anyway, I just wanted to point that out. Think any other matters from council staff?

Yeah, I just have one clarifying matter based on direction you provided today at the meeting uh with regards to the budget committee and keeping it open for an additional week. If council feels that this is okay, we would have it open. Uh we'll advertise it starting tomorrow and it will be closed February 10th. That's next Tuesday. It's not a full week. The reason for that is if you want your packet on time, we'll need to get the applications in and the packets together. So, if you're okay with that, it'd be just a short of a week, but um if you want it to be a full week, then we would have information missing from the packet until probably the night of the meeting. So, or or a little bit before. So, if you're okay with that, uh it us closing on the 10th, we'll close it on the 10th. As you know, we the packets are distributed at least seven days before we actually utilize them to give you guys time to research them. So,

hearing no objections, then we'll just have it open for from tomorrow till the 10th. and and and then Erin, I just want to make sure you're I'm assuming you will reach out to those who interviewed today and um let them know the timeline and how much we appreciated them coming today even though we didn't vote on appointing as they expected us to. So just you'll do that I'm sure.

Certainly. Well, and that also gives you an opportunity. There was one person that wasn't in attendance tonight for the interview, so he has an opportunity to actually be involved in the next interviews. Stephanie, um, having heard about the hive presentation that you were all invited to, we need to be careful of quorum. Um, particularly if it's being advertised as information feedback for local government because that is something that would come before this body. So it might be and if this council is going to be getting essentially the same presentation um perhaps we wait for that as opposed to attending the hive one or at least council members make sure that there's not going to be a quorum.

I registered like when it came out. So I registered also already. So may maybe we should decide who gets to go to the hive presentation and who waits until So you got Indra, Joel, and Seth who've already registered as three. So So that's four. Kathleen, that's four. So technically technically it's my office. So we're voting. Yeah, this isn't this isn't

as we've talked about before, receiving information on something that may come before you, which if it's feedback for local government to take into consideration is matters that may come before council. So, you have to be very careful about receiving that information in a group that's quorum. Rick, is there a method that we on the internet or something um if we know what four counselors are attending that we could put a notice in that the purpose of of attending the meeting is for information?

Could it could be noticed as a public meeting um that more that a quorum of council members may attend. It's not but it's not it's not open the meeting itself because you have to register for it is not open to the public. Therefore, the public couldn't attend it. So, I guess I'm retracting that you can't notice that it's a public meeting. Oh, okay. Right. So, yep. It's a closed meeting. So, unless it was open to the public,

Joel, the council representative, the chamber of commerce and they're behind it. I feel like I really need to know this. I And I would encourage all of it. I I understand this law and I understand that somebody may sue us because we go and listen to the microphone on counselor. There's risk let's not talk in a public meeting about um knowingly violating public meeting law. Yeah.

Yeah. I uh I don't mind doing that. If somebody wants to sue me, they can. uh especially with with regards to this. Uh but anyway, I I already expressed my meaning and thank you. Well, okay. So, so here's here's what I'm suggesting. Um I'll be the first one to go to Rock and Rentals and and rent you guys a couple inflatable sumo suits and we can all butt it out here. But, um it's kind of long in the tooth here. So, you guys have been advised by legal counsel on what you should and shouldn't do. So, it's up to you guys to do what you need to do. But unless there's any other matters, then I think

See, this is where this law doesn't make sense, right? Because I could technically go and represent the board of Main Street Grants pass, right? I mean, I get I'm a city counselor, but I'm still I still have other I don't I I again, what what's giving me pause is the statement that said it would include feedback for local government. That feedback for local government then suggests that it would be something that would potentially be coming before council to take action. So it regardless of your role as a council member, you'd be receiving information intended for local government to take action. Rick, so if we as the city council would like that to be published as a public hearing, would that resolve our issue?

No, cuz you said it was not a public venue because it's registration only. So it's a closed meeting even though the entity that's putting it on is a public entity. My understanding is that it's limit attendance is limited. So if attendance is limited and not everybody can go regardless of how many people that's where you may have problems with that.

I don't think I I know there's registration. I mean again we could talk somebody could talk to Terry Hopkins tomorrow about it but I think I could be wrong that the registration is only if you want to eat. I could be wrong. Don't quote me on that. I thought that's what I read. So other than that it's open to anyone. So again, maybe ask tomorrow. Any other matters that don't revolve around public meeting laws? Okay. If none, seeing none, staff's good. Anybody? Oh, Jason, you thumbs up. You're just like, go home. Okay. I would be looking for a motion to adjurnn. Thank you. Second. Awesome. Thumbs up. We're going home. Thank you very much for your participation tonight.