Zoning Board of Appeals - Regular Meeting

meeting of the Grafton zoning board of appeals is being conducted both remotely and in person consistent with the temporary provisions of the open meeting law which extends remote meeting protocols through March 31st 2027. This meeting is convening via Zoom video conference and in person as posted on the meeting agenda which can be found on the town of Grafton website. Please see the meeting agenda for details on how to participate remotely. Please note that this meeting is being recorded. All participation within this meeting will be visible to others accordingly. Please be aware that people may be able to see you and if you screen share it may be captured and broadcast later. Um, this meeting will not feature public comment. Um, and all votes taken at this meeting will be done by a roll call vote. Um, so we were scheduled to meet uh tonight regarding Snow Road. They've requested a continuence. Um, so really we've opened the meeting. We just need a motion to continue. And I believe we've set uh December 18th as the next meeting date. Does that work? I know Alex, you're away. Um but that'll be your first meeting that you're missing, I believe, right?

Uh apparently. Yeah. So, I think um whatever works best for for the group, but I um I should hopefully even be able to attend remotely. It's still not 100% sure that I'll be away. Um, but that's what I was told to say. So, [laughter] okay. [laughter] All right. So, is there a motion to continue uh case I don't have the number in front of me. 910. 910 for Snow Road to December 18th at 7 p.m. So moved. Second. Motion was made and seconded. Uh, Miss Reed, yes. Mr. McCusker,

yes. Mr. Adams, yes. Mr. Mahia, yes.

Chairman votes yes. That is continued. Um, the only other topic is the workshop that's scheduled. um and just logistics for that and who from the board is able to attend and who should attend. Um and you know what our ability to participate in that if more than I think what is it more than two attend? So, I spoke to the town clerk today because I posted um it's not an agenda. It's just if you do a workshop, you still have to post something because the public can attend. So, I posted that and it says on it that this is just a workshop requested by the applicant. From what Amy said, if there is a quorum there, all I have to do minutes wise is say a quorum attended the workshop. Nothing was discussed regarding this topic. it was just a quorum attended the workshop

and and it'd be that simple. So a quorum of you can attend more than three of you, two or three of you, but it it's intended to be a interactive, right? a question and answer, but it's not that you're going to be discussing the case in and of itself because they they requested it to be in with other departments to get input on what they want on the plans. I'm assuming. I don't know. But I think that's the only thing we're going to be discussing, right?

Yeah. I I mean, we're we're definitely going to be discussing the case. Um, yeah. I I'm really I'm very concerned. Um, I'm concerned because town council said this did not need to be posted. This was not a meeting per open meeting law as long as only a couple of us were there. Um I I'm concerned about what happens if actually we do end up with a quorum and the only thing we're discussing is case 910 and we're doing it outside of the public hearing. Um [clears throat] you know I I I don't know if I can say but you know it seems to me we we maybe ought to try to make sure there aren't more than two of us there.

[cough and clears throat] Um, uh, you know, Brian Ray, Brian Lvin raised some questions and and I I think they need to be answered probably by maybe both Dan Hill and um, town council. You know, I don't want to get in a situation where we screw this up. Okay. So, you want me to forward the email from Brian over to Chris Heap, too? I I I don't know. Brian Waller, I mean, are do you share my concerns? Am I overreacting here? No, I I'm very concerned. Okay. About [clears throat] this. Um Okay.

Especially because there's also public interest and specific public interest. People have asked about attending this and the dates and times for it. Um, I think it would be, you know, underhanded to kind of go off in a room and meet and exclude the public. Um, you know, if there's more than if there's a a quorum of the word there. All right. I'll I'll [clears throat] forward Brian's questions to Chris Heap tomorrow morning

and keep I'll keep at least you two in the in the loop on the email chain and Dan and see what comes of it. Do we um do we know who plans or wants to attend the workshop? So, as far as I know, it's um all of the team on snow. Yeah. No, I mean amongst us. Oh, I don't know. From from here, I don't know. The only one that said definitely they could attend was Alex. Other than that, I haven't I you know, I sent the email out on everything and I hadn't and I sent the invite to everybody so everybody at least knows about it. I was planning on it if some if unless something else came up, but

I mean I could attend as well. My schedule opened up next Wednesday. Um and I feel like because they they're talking to all the different departments. So, is it important for us just to be there to hear? I'm we'll get I'm sure I'm assuming we'll get a wrap up from every department telling us what what they accomplish. I wouldn't count on that. How I mean, isn't this supposed to help us with our decision or Yeah, I I I think some I think there should be a couple of us there,

right? And you know, maybe uh I I doubt that I'll be able to be there. I'm just kind of buried during with my real job. So, you know, maybe if it's if it's Kay and and Peter Adams. I mean, does did anybody else want to attend? I'm not plan I'm not planning on asking them real questions. I I just want to hear what they want to what they're what it's all about. I've never really been to a workshop. In the 15 years I've been here, we've ZBA's never had one.

And I think we do need to know like whoever does go are do we have to stay quiet or can we ask questions? What I think we need to know what our cuz I I feel like I'd like to be there just to hear um and because I can I I can be there but if Dan Hill or our town council says it needs to be let to or less then I'm willing to flip a coin with somebody but um well we need to know if we can engage or not and if we're not supposed to. No, I mean I can make it work but I might I'd be happy for you to go instead. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, does anybody else want to go? I'm probably

I guess I guess we're looking at you, Brian, at this point. Brian, like Kevin. Yeah, I'm probably in the same boat as Kay. I think, you know, I would like to be there if it's not going to cause a problem. I don't have any problem with bowing out if if the limit is two. I don't think it makes sense for me as the non- voting member to take one of those two spots. So, um, so yeah, I would attend, um, or make an effort to attend if, um, if the number didn't matter, but if we're limited to two, I'll I'll stand down. Yeah. And who knows who we are. I mean, I I completely made that up, right? So, I I don't know if we're limited to two or not. I don't know what the impact is.

If somebody can't go, then the whole thing should be cancelled. That That's how I feel. If a board is restricted on going to a meeting, it shouldn't be a meeting. Well, it's not a meeting, it's a workshop. So, that's whatever you want to call it. And if more I mean, I'll double check tomorrow and I'll look through the emails because the emails went back and forth with Chris Heap and Dan before we scheduled this workshop. So, I will double check with through the emails and with Dan tomorrow morning. And I mean, well, along those lines, Peter, and I I agree with that sentiment, but is it could we just make it a public hearing

or Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's when when I saw it advertised, like, wait a sec, this this should just be the the the next meeting. Unfortunately, we just continued it to December, [laughter]

right? And I think one of the questions I asked um Dan Hill in my email today was, you know, whether or not, and I used the language right out of Mass General Law um from the the Mullen certificates, but um my concern would be members of the board not being able to attend and having that count as an absence. And we've got most of the board that, myself included, that have missed one meeting already. Um, I wouldn't want this to be a second for one or multiple of us. Um, if that if that was, you know, if we did make that a public hearing. Um, and and and by the way, what what they're talking about doing, you know, Dan has called it a workshop. The ZBA has had participation in the development review meetings and and I've been part of those meetings. So, you know, and that's that was my expectation is is this was all this was going to be is that they were going to go to the development review. The people would be there, they participate, they have questions, whatever, blah blah blah. You know, if some of us wanted to go and watch or the public wanted to go and watch, I think all that would have been fine. Now that it's actually a published meeting, I you know, I I feel as that changes things and it's not even necessarily the same development review board. It's something different. [clears throat] I think we need to just get some some questions, you know, and and I think the big question is if a quorum of the ZBA is there at this workshop and essentially we're discussing case 910. Is that a problem for case 910? That's really the question I believe. I mean, Brian has other questions in there. I I suspect in one way or another he's asking that question. Actually, I

think that's the very first question you asked really. And are there minutes like do they do meeting minutes in a workshop or I mean I mean this is all somehow we as the board that decides on this case or not. I I [clears throat] mean I don't know about everybody else, but I feel like we need to be informed of what's discussed somehow. And what's the point of this if it's restricted to two people attending, but it's all information that would be useful to everyone in deciding this case, right?

Yeah. And by the way, I wasn't necessarily restricting it, but I was just what where I was getting at was, well, let's just say only two of us could attend, right? For whatever reason, the other five members have other things. There's no way. I think that kind of changes it, but I wasn't necessarily looking to restrict it. And the reality is, uh, I think there's at least three members who can and would like to attend. So, we're going to be looking at a quorum. Y [cough and clears throat] although may may not because Brian's a non- voting member. Maybe we're not looking at a quorum. I don't know.

I I had asked a while back and I don't know if um if you had a chance to look into it. So we have seven members but only five vote. Any five of us could vote at any point in time. So is quorum two or three? Yeah. Three or or No, you're asking three or four. Yeah. We've we've always I've always been told three. Yeah, I would assume so because I agree because Jiffy or I could vote. All we would need is one non associate member to appoint Jiffy and I if Jiffy and I and one other person showed up. So, right. And Jiffy at this point is now a non- voting member for this. Yeah. For this

for this because he's missed two meetings. [clears throat] I think we just got to get um get an opinion from council. All right. Um I'll work on that tomorrow morning. Uh with with the board's permission, I'd like to uh before Katrina sends anything off to council, I'd like to review and make sure we're asking the right questions. Fine by me. Okay. Okay. So, Katrina, let's let's collaborate on that in the morning. Okay. I'll be in at 8. Is Dan Hill going to be present at that? Yes. Remotely? No, he's going to be here

in person. Yes. He He's going to be here. Jeff's going to be here. It's going to be Paul Canoyer, Leah from conservation, Eric and Mike from fire. Planning really doesn't need to come in because they have really nothing to do with it. So that's that's who's coming. And the applicant called this workshop, correct? They wanted the workshop. Yes. They requested it last meeting. Dan Dan suggested it and Yeah. Okay. And Dan That's right. That's right.

That's right. [snorts] I don't know. I mean, my gut is that this should just be a public meeting. I don't know, but we'll see what they say. Yeah. No, I I don't disagree. So, do you want me to give you a call in the morning, Bill? Um, why don't let's do it by email. Why don't you take a shot at it and then uh an email or a letter, whatever, and then um I'll see what I can edit it up. All right, sounds good. By Brian, when you said public meeting, do you mean a regular public meeting like we're having now? Yeah,

but we don't do that during the day for one thing. I I That would be Yeah, that would be hard. I don't know that there's anything that says we can't, right? I not that I'd probably know, but because if we weren't taking public comment, if it was a public meeting that was recorded, at least, you know, there'd be visibility as to what went on. as opposed to some, you know, just from an outsider. It looks like a backroom, you know, negotiation session. Well, no, anybody can come

Wednesday. Anybody can come sit out in the audience. They just can't participate. Correct. So, uh [sighs] I guess how's that different from a public meeting though? Well, because in a public meeting the public can get up and make comment and ask questions where this one they just they can't. This is just a workshop. We're probably woring about scenarios that'll never happen. So, I mean, the only one that's called me and asked me about it is Mr. Bonner. Yeah. And that's it. So, he's really been the only one who's inquired on it. You know, the the reality is the applicant could go walking into the town hall and meet with anybody there at any time.

Correct. And um and they can also request to meet with the development review board on the Thursday afternoons or whenever it is. And and we may not even know what happened, right? So we um we I was going to try and do it with the team de development board, but it hinged on Dan's schedule and when Dan was available. So that's what it ended up being was his availability versus just the regular team development meeting on Thursdays at two.

So I guess part of the question is do they want andor need any of us there? Because to to Bill's point if their sole goal is to collaborate with town departments then you know I don't want to speak for anybody that might want to still be there but I don't think any of us need to be there. It's exactly what Bill just described. if they just walked into the town hall and started knocking on doors. Um, but the way we had discussed it in the last meeting and the way that I think Dan had kind of put it out there with a couple of us attending was that a couple of us would potentially participate. Um, and so at this point I don't know what the what the applicant is looking for. I have no idea. [clears throat] I have no idea what they're looking for. I

I think the applicant asked for a couple of us too, didn't it? That's what I thought in the last Yeah. meeting. Yeah, this thing's taking on a life of its own. I I I think I think we just we need we're going to need to get opinion from council and um and what this So, this is next Wednesday. Yes.

All right. So, we got a few days. We just we just you know, I think my biggest concern Well, maybe maybe it's twofold. One is that, you know, we can attend because there's people on the board that want to attend this, but also that we don't screw up the public hearing, you know, and we don't do something that's a violation of open meeting law, of course, but, you know, I don't want to get in a position where we've messed up our public hearing that we've got a lot invested in. So, we'll we'll let's see if we can't get opinion from both Dan Hill and town council and [sighs] try and do the right thing. Okay.

All right. So, is there a motion to adjurnn? This is so much fun. I don't want to. I move rejourn. Second. Second. Uh motion was made and seconded. Uh, Miss Reed, yes. Mr. McCuscer, yes. Mr. Adams, yes. Mr. Mahia, yes. Chairman votes yes. We're adjourned. Good night.