Zoning Board of Appeals - Regular Meeting

[Music] It is 7:03 p.m. This open meeting of the Grafton Zoning Board of Appeals is being conducted both remotely and in person consistent with the temporary provisions of the open meeting law which extends remote meeting protocols through March 31st, 2027. This meeting is convening via Zoom video conference and in person as posted on the meeting agenda which can be found on the town of Grafton website. Please see the meeting agenda for details on how to participate remotely. Please note that this meeting is being recorded. All participation in this meeting will be visible to others. Screen share. Please be careful as anything may be recorded and broadcast later. This meeting may feature public comment. For anyone attending virtually, if you'd like acknowledgement, like to request acknowledgement to speak, please use the raise hand feature in Zoom and the meeting administrator will enable you to speak. Uh for those on the phone, the meeting administrator will enable you to speak. Um for anyone in person, we ask you to step up to the podium. And for all speakers, please state your name and address prior to your comments or questions. And each vote taken in this meeting will be done by a roll call vote.

Actually, we're all here. I think we we don't need to do that. We We don't have any members on Zoom. Nope. All members are present. But I think we still have to do roll call. Okay. Oh. Oh, maybe. Okay. Okay. Um All right. With that, I'll turn it over to Vice Chair McCusker. So, uh, we'll reopen case number it's 9:10 and welcome the applicant to join us at one of these tables.

So, I'm just going to make a really quick comment. You guys really need to speak into your mics. Um, when I'm re playing the video, I can't hear you, which means if anybody's watching this, they cannot hear you. So, I just want you guys to make sure you speak into your mics, please. Thank you.

Uh, thank you. For the record, John John Granny, your Jam Granny associate. I'm here with Steven Benasa, who is the proponent and owner of the property. So, since our last meeting, um what we did to um give the board more information is to look at some profiles for Snow Road um at the intersection of 122 to look at what the what the slopes would be, how the intersection would work uh particularly with the where we were turning the uh section of Snow Road so that it is at least in the southbound side. We'd have two lanes there that are closer to being at a 90° angle to 122 for better visibility. So, um we did two sets of plans. One was if we went under the subdivision regulations that are would typically is for a new roadway and which we would have a 3% leveling area um for the first 100 ft and then transitioning up to uh with a vertical curve up to an 8% slope. And that again that would be under under subdivision standards for a new road. So we did that and that is what's shown as option B and there's um a few sheets associated with that. The issue with that is obviously over 3% landing area. it makes it flat at the

intersection of of 122. But then when you go to the north heading um you know past Maxwell Drive and some of the other abuing properties with cutting that slope down that flat and then transitioning you're you're way in the ground. So um on Wait, what do you mean way in the ground? What does that mean? Much lower than it's much lower. Yeah, I was about to so I was going to point out if you look at that on this sheet there's sheet sheet one for option B. Oh, I see right there.

Yeah, we have a match. We had to take the profile and we had to so it fit to like a mash line and jog it. That's why you see a step in those in those lines. And right at where that match line is on the right, it says Maxwell Drive intersection from station 1 + 75 to 2 + 15. The existing grade at Maxwell Drive is at it ranges from elevation 333 to about 336. And where the road would come into that is at about um elevation 325. So you you have about a 9 to 10 foot cut. So it's just when you're going in, you're just coming in so low and gradually going up. So you hit Maxwell Drive that Maxwell Drive is 10 feet up in the air.

Yep.

Um similarly, when you go by the common driveway, that's for number six and eight snow road, which is on the other side of the street, a little bit further up. You're where you can't at the 8% slope. It takes so long to catch up. you're at like seven and a half feet below their driveway grade. So, just it doesn't, you know, you can't go by straight subdivision standards. If it was a brand new road, raw land, you know, you'd make your cuts, knock your your lot grades down, make your driveways work. But where obviously Snow Road is an existing road that gives access to multiple aboding properties, we don't have that luxury. So the other plan which

are you building walls by the way? Are you building walls because of these cuts? No. Well, it doesn't work. Steve, closer to your mic, please. No, I I mean there's no way that there's there's no way that you road is 7 ft below, so it just doesn't do it. Well, I realize that I wouldn't want to be the person living in that house that you're going to have a driveway like that. No, it wouldn't be that. I think what they're saying is seven. Yeah, you need a ladder, an elevator. Yeah. And I think what they're saying is this option B, they're not going to be able to do it. And the reason they're not going to be able to do is because of the significant cuts. Correct.

So, that's why I think he's moving on to that. That was just to show you that's that's why it it doesn't work. Um so with the design that we and the grading that we had done previously, we did a profile for that um for how that would work into the site. And that includes at the at the shoulder at the intersection of 122 and Snow Road, which is option A, right?

Which is option A. and where we're turning where we're turning the the southbound aisles so that they're more 90 that profile of that leg we would have a for a stretch of 30 ft from the from the curb line a leveling area of 5%. And then for another 30 feet it transitions up to 10% for about a length of I think it's about 115 ft. So it's generally a short section that's at 10% about 115 ft and then it transitions down to 5% where you would be um coming into into Worcester Street. So that we catch up to grade um at just at about the intersection of of existing Maxwell Drive. So given the you know where the abuing driveways are and the abuing properties are um we believe that this works the best given the circumstances. And just for a point of reference, we had looked at what the slope of existing snow road is, which is angle, and that is um at about a 7 to 7 and 12% grade right now. So what we're doing is taking about a 7% grade and then going for 30 feet at 5% so we have a better leveling area and then transitioning up to a 10% so you can catch up catch back up to existing grade up further up the hill on Snow Road. So, um, we think that this in our opinion is is the best way to to work it given the given the the conditions on site. And

with that said, um, we are still and I've reached out. I was playing a little phone tag with, uh, a gentleman over at DOT to try to sit down with them because ultimately DOT is going to be the, you know, the ultimate judge of how we're tying into their state road. So, this is something that would be reviewed by DOT. Um, we have to get a curb cut permit. We will be making that application because it's going to be a town road. The the application although we're doing everything is technically signed by the um by by the town whether it's through the the the town manager through the DPW or the highway department. So they will be part of the process as well because it's technically their their signing on the application and again we'd be dealing with DOT on how everything will tie into their system and whether it's the road grades, the drainage, the other infrastructure that will have to be modified, you know, where catch basins are going because it doesn't work. So, we are fully on board with this proposal to again have the the turning of Snow Road for the southbound lanes. Um modifying that intersection. Um we you know that we did talk to the housing authority and they are on board with using some of their land. Uh, we did do some title research on Maxwell Drive for for the um housing authorities property to see if it was does the state have anything of ownership because they work with the state on on the public housing. And the title report that we

got back, it's it's solely under the control of the housing authority. So, there's no other hoops to jump through with other entities potentially. Um and there's existing town easements that go through Maxwell Drive because the sewer turns and goes cross country through Maxwell Drive. Um that comes down. So there's other easements that are in place um as part of the housing authorities property. This would ultimately whether it's a taking or an easement, we'll have to work with with the town uh on that and how they would like to make that formalized. We are fully on board with moving forward with this option to do DOT and they may have obviously they're going to have input. They may want us to tweak things, change a few things. It's again we're we're working under their umbrella so to speak. So, um, what we would like to do is have at least a blessing from you folks that or or a condition with you folks that we will present this to DOT, work with DOT and the town, whether it's the highway department, etc. to move forward on this layout. And then um just knowing that DOT is the ultimate judge on uh and they make the rules of of what they will allow us to do to tie into their right of way. So um that's kind of the long and short of it. Um if you have any questions or comments, we'd like to to address them.

Yeah, I I actually do. Katrina, could you put um option A up on the screen in the first sheet?

No, that's option. That's option A. I want this. Which one? Oh, you want the second page? No. Well, it's the first page. Well, it's the bottom part of the first page. This is what you want though, right? Just I don't know. Does that say option A in the in the legend on the right? Option B or option A? Option A. This is option A. Okay. Yeah. All right. Shift back over. So, when I'm looking at the stuff there to the left of the match line, what is the dotted line? It says existing center line grade, but

but that's going cross country. that's going through the slope where we're going to be cutting into the um cutting into the housing authorities's property. But is that is that the current grade? That's the current grade going through their lawn. Okay. And then then pointing to the same line, it says edge of existing road pavement, right? And that's where if you look at the on the plan view up top where I I have a center line and at the at the curb line is 0 plus 0 0 then it goes up 0 + 50 and then you go up to 1 + 0 0 which is y

station 100. That's where you're hitting the curb line of existing snow road. That's where you're hitting the curb of existing Snow Road. And then so to the right of that is going within the roadway of of Snow Road. Okay. Does that make sense? Yep. Um All right. So you're saying um but the existing Snow Road, which of course is not the same thing as what we're looking at here, has a grade of 7%. Yeah. Seven. It it seven I mean seven eight. It kind of, you know, it bounces a little bit, but it's it's in that range.

Okay. Right. So then it's a 10% grade until it hits the existing snow road and it'll tone down. It looks like from then on it's it's like Yeah. You look at where it shifts down from the mattress and it says uh 8% plus or minus. Yeah. Okay. All right. All right. I just want to make sure I was understanding what I was looking at here. So, it's going from 8% goes down to 10% for aboutund and I I think it's about 115 ft and then levels back out to 5%. Yep. Okay. All right. Um, questions from the board. So, so what's the the maximum rate currently on Snow Road? Like the center of the road

about 7 and 1 half 8%. And that's consist that's pretty consistent on the existing snow that road that's pretty consistent heading down to the intersection of 122. We we're providing a little better leveling area with this plan to go down to 5%. So you're showing here the the dashed line you said is Where where on? It's this that doesn't exist yet. Oh, that's the dirt the the lawn that got it.

Yeah, that's where you're going down and then you know you hit the curb and you're turning. What about the grade on the remainder of Snow Road that meets the other side of the uh island? We're really not touching that. We're leaving that. Okay. Pretty much how it is right now. But that's what you're saying is seven roughly about seven. Yes. Correct. Yeah. So then elevation wise it is the say the just looking at this the right hand side of the island

up snow road. Up snow road. Yep. What's the um height difference, I guess? Does it flat all the way across or does it go does the island drop off? The island drops off on the on the two-lane side. It drops off a little. Well, because 140 drops off is dropping off there. So, it has to meet 140. But you have if you see you have a different slope on the if you're coming down Snow Road the you can take a right you can go to the right of the island or to the left of the island right

no if you're going up you can go to the right yeah that's on that on the lower side of the sheet that's that's one way that's one way one way okay and that's following the existing snow road if you see like cutting through I see on the plan view. It says existing curb. That's the existing curb line of Snow Road as it is now. And then you can see the island um narrows that that section of it. I I So again, that new strip is going to be slightly different because it's meeting 140 at a little lower grade. So in order to meet the grades at both ends, right? So just

Okay. I I I get you. Um,

so I just want to say another thing about as from a lay person cuz John's the only engineer here. Um, when you when you build a road like that and you do it 10% 8% 6%. It's the length that really exacerbates that. So if you have a a 10% uh road grade for 100 ft, that's way less than if you had an 8% for 300 ft. you know the big fact the fact that that's so short 100 feet how fast how long does it take to go 100 feet in a car like it's like a second so it's it's not going to be as as drastic as as looking at the plan say oh you're going 10% sounds worse than it is but it's really not because it's so short

right and and you know we we build roads we design roads all the time in new conditions and we don't we we just go with the the regulations It's 3%. We We don't have any driveways to match up. We don't have any butters to deal with and we own all the land. It's not an issue here. We're working with the butters. And that's why we're having to tweak it back and forth. And I think, you know, John did a really good job at doing that. And it's all tradeoffs. It's all trade-offs, right? You flat leveling area, steepness area, matching the driveways. It's all give and take.

What's the best we can do given the constraints? Any other questions or comments from the board? Going down. Is that sidewalk on the side or is that what is that? It's on that side. Yes. I mean, is that is it drawn in? Is that what them on the on the on the on the right hand side going down? Yeah. Oh, yeah. On the right hand side going down. On the right hand. Oh. Oh. If you're heading to to West Street, right? Right. Yeah. That's That's a proposed sidewalk. Which That's a proposed sidewalk. Mhm. Why does it make a such a curve at the top?

Cuz it's You mean on the Maxwell Drive side? Yeah. That is it meeting another one there or Well, yeah, there is a little sidewalk over there. We're going to be having a c We're going to widen the sidewalk on the other side of Maxwell Drive. Your answer is right. It is meeting another sidewalk. Sidewalk. going in. Oh, yeah. That's right. You know, may as well drive. There is a sidewalk. You're right. And then we're going to have a handicap ramp right there at the at the radius. And then

speaking of sidewalks, of course, we're going to we're going to wait till we do anything till Jeff uh yeah, gives his opinion on this. I imagine I'm just going to stop sharing to check and see if he's in yet. planning board is 8%. Yeah, we tend we've gotten waiverss on that on on No, I'm not I'm not I'm just Yeah, it's subdivision subdivision standards is is max 8%. For years it was 10% though for a lot of years. Was it? Yeah.

The the issue though is it's not the the steepness of the road going pop. It's the steepness of the road coming down. That that's the concern is that you're you have a steep slope as you're approaching 122. That's what we're trying to solve, right? Is to make that more safe. Right. But with the leveling area, it is safer.

Right. right now. Um, on Snow Road there is really much on the existing Snow Road. There's not much of a leveling area and it's just a straight seven pretty much a 7%ish um, and then it goes into like 7 8%. So, if we went a say a straight 7% and didn't have a leveling area, we could probably get rid of the the that section of 10%. But I think the tradeoff is I'd rather have a small section at 10% if then you can come down into a you know and transition into a a 5%. So from 60 feet off of the curb line of 122, you're transitioning from 10% and then it gets, you know, it's a vertical curve and then it goes from 10% 60 ft away down to 5% and it's a flat 5% for 30 feet. So in tradeoffs, I think that's probably um again Jeff can chime in and I'm sure DOT will chime in. DOT likes to see um a 5% leveling area coming into their into their right of way. Um not a straight 7%. So we thought that was given the the conditions that was the the best way to balance it.

Years ago all the roads were built straight right down in no leveling area. Now we have a leveling area in everything we built. Everything. Can I ask you a question? Um how does this compare? How how does the profile compare to the the last version of of the street that you had designed? This this is the same option A yes is the same as what you had proposed before. Yes. In terms of but we just did a profile to show how how it was, you know, at least in numbers and you could see the cross the profiling section of it.

So you're you're showing A and B, but is there something in between? Like is there is I mean you're matching the road when it gets to Maxwell Drive, right? Is there is there is there an alternative C where maybe you don't match the elevation in Maxwell Drive but maybe it's like one feet or two feet difference versus seven. Um and would would that be by having a to allow a more gradual slope coming up rather than 10? D you can do you can do anything you want. It's a question of, you know, is it one foot? You're going to have a car that's going to jump up one foot, but you know, well, obviously you'd have to grade it. I'm just I'm just asking. It's all about

trade-offs. If we if we go into private property, you know, we can grade anything we want. But, you know, from a matter of our right to do that, we don't have that right to do that. What's Maxwell Drive? That's housing authority. Well, that's one right. Well, we have another road right across the street, private owners that already have a steep driveway themselves, which which would just that driveway would get steeper and I'd have to say that if I live there, I wouldn't want that on my driveway. So, if we went to like you said into an 8% slope, I'm just asking like are there other alternatives?

You can do anything. You can do anything. You know, you could say instead of a leveling area of 3%, you go leveling area of 4%, 5%. You could you can do anything. So if we went if we went from our five 5% leveling area and then we transitioned to an 8% the existing road is at like seven or eight%. So you just it's you're not catching up. You got to make it a little steeper so you can catch up. Otherwise you're still you know at a minimum a few feet below the existing grade and you're just kind of paralleling it and you just keep going. So

yeah, I guess my my question is more if you were two feet off at Maxwell Drive and the neighbor across the street and that's going up right across the street. Yeah. Go that driveway goes up. Yeah. So if you if you're two if there's a twoft difference, is that easier? I mean, not easy, but is is that feasible to to match through grading on those two properties? And would that make a difference? I'm not saying it is. I'm just asking like would that would that allow for an 8% or 9% grade that might be safer than 10? Well, you'd have to do a taking. That's right on the edge of the road. And then you'd have to go way into their property to to, you know, ramp their driveway down to to Snow Road, right? So,

but they're they're 100 ft further a little up the road, right? Yeah. At least they are. But no, it's directly even if we went at 8%. If um it's No, if you look it's there. Did you put the plan? It's Yep. this is that driveway. Oh, I thought this was it. No, that is a a swath that the um stop and shop. So So the driveway is way up here. That's that's the driveway of the neighbors. That's the common driver that serves a neighbor. But if we went say at 8% it it just would be paralleling the the slope of snow road. You have to pick it up a little bit so you can catch up. So

okay. So I guess my point is that you didn't realize it was further up the hill. I mean it's possible to do maybe eight for a stretch then up 10 or or maybe even 11 or something just to catch up when you get to that private driveway. But I I I think and I see what you could look at it. You could look at all different kind of iterations where it's only a small like 115 foot section that's at 10% to catch up. It it and then and it's transitioning it. I I I think that works best. I mean, you could try to drop it out and just keep going and keep going, but at that point you

a person driving on the car would not notice the difference between the eight and a 10% grade for 100 feet. Now again, I I'll say if it's 300 feet, absolutely you would notice. At 100 feet, it would not be distinguishable from I I wouldn't be able to tell. The issue is not whether the driver notices it, but the issue is whether it makes it safer for when the guy is stopping in a snowstorm and he can and he can stop safely. Well, it's much safer with the leveling area, Dan. Much safer. Much safer with the leveling area. I'm talking about your comment just now about he's not noticing it. It's the My point is that it's not about what you notice. The issue is breaking distance, reaction time, breaking distance are well length adds all into that. Dan, you can't ignore length, right? And we just need Jeff to

Yeah. And we can have Jeff Sure. Opine on on this. Sure. Um because you could um use part of Maxwell Drive to level that out or make up the additional foot or two, you know, to buy a little and and maybe knock it down a percent or and it's really the house across the street though, isn't Well, that's further that is further up. Is it that is it? It's okay. Um, so like I said, we could look at at, you know, infinite amount

infinite amount of, you know, mixing and matching slopes, leveling areas, grades. Um, but we we thought that this made sense as all. You know, it's kind of funny. The 10% didn't necessarily bother me. What bothered me more was 30 feet of 5%. Mhm. 30 ft's a car length and a half at the most. Right. Right. Not lots of anything. Sure. I was looking for, you know, and then it is but you have to then it is it's not going directly up to 10%. There's a 30 foot long vertical curve. So it is a transition. So it's really more than 30 ft. Yeah. But but it's not it's not that big of a leveling area,

right? You know, so if anything, I think, you know, would it be better to have a have more of a leveling area? But let's let's see what Jeff has to say. And and just as a comparison, that has a better leveling area than current snow does, right? Which has no leveling area. Which really has no leveling. The only No, I I understand that. I understand that it's it's an improvement, right? Absolutely. Um, just getting back to the sidewalks, where are we with respect to the sidewalk in this stretch of road? I I'm not seeing anything necessarily drawn in other than the new one on Maxwell. So, as far as the existing snow road, are we still crossing the street? Yes. Okay.

And we're going to make improvements obviously. We're going to widen up because where the utility poles are, we're going to we're going to widen up those and put handicap. There are some areas on Maxwell Drive on both sides of Maxwell Drive that don't have handicap ramps. So, we're going to add handicap ramps, widen it so that you have adequate width um and the poles aren't, you know, right on the edge of the So, I thought at one point we we I thought we were asking for at least more of an attempt um at trying to get the sidewalk onto I guess what is that? the the east side east side on the east side. So we did talk to that about her and they are definitely against

sidewalk. You you mentioned that but then the question was you know is is there any way to get it in the existing rightway? Yeah, Brian asked you for a survey at the last meeting. You said you were going to do a surve you're going to have your guy go about go back out there and do a survey of those properties. We have um the existing curb line. He on this I had to send him back out. He didn't locate that wall, you know, the the He didn't locate that wall. It was outside the rightway. So, um, but if you look at where that curb line is in relation on either side of where that existing driveway is, you don't have the width. You don't have the width for a sidewalk right there. Would only be, you know, maybe a two or three foot I if that.

So, we're not opposed to building a sidewalk there. We just don't have the land. Yeah. Yeah. But we could, you know, I guess that's kind of the the surveyor, you know, is really nailing down that that is where the property lines are and that's what you have. And is there any opportunity to to shift Snow Road the foot or two that you might need to is there any way to grab the land that you need to keep it there? Keep keep the sidewalk on the east side. I mean I I think we need we kind of talked about that and

and and if you see where the that property line as we show it that is the property line where the edge of the pavement is that is the edge of the pavement and if you look at that at from the edge of the pavement to the property line compared to the the width of of sidewalk over on the Maxwell Drive side. I mean it's you've got like this much room if if you're lucky. I don't I don't think we're I don't know. Are we allowed to build a two foot wide? I mean, the handicap.

No, you wouldn't foot. So, I don't Is there land that you could steal out of snow road shift? Essentially, you'd be stealing it from the Maxwell Drive property by shifting shifting the road over. I mean, you say you got this much. Well, how much more do you need to actually We need four feet. I you know, I was going to say zero. What is it? What are the specifications? But that's where the survey is necessary. I I feel like we need I think your survey needs to go back out and actually do a blowup of this section show you know this section here showing the rock the wall the curb line right the property line because it's really hard to see it here where it also where the existing sidewalk starts

starts right where is that across from Maxwell it is across Maxwell you'll see there's a little bit of a um is it this line here yeah that little jog right there that's where that's where the sidewalk on that side of the road and that is actually on the stop and shop property property that that's on

the edge the curb line of snow road is close to the property line and it gets closer to the closer to the property line um as the further north you go and then this that sidewalk um that is on the stop and shop side that's on stop and shop's property line on pro on their property I should where there's a sidewalk on the Maxwell Drive side. Correct. Correct. Right in front of that. I'm looking at that uh the building on the right. Not the one on the left. The one on the right of uh Maxwell Drive. There's a sidewalk. It goes all the way down, Pete. All the way down to to Worcester Street.

Right. Now, if that sidewalk got moved right to the property line, then shift the road over. But there's utility poles, I think. Yeah. Well, they'll it might take two years, but they'll move them. But if I'm No, we did it on Wester Street at Quincig Corn. It took years. I realize that. But Oh, yeah. Overall, it's a better But to Bill's point, I look where the look look where the road the narrowest point between the curb line and the property line is actually directly across from Maxwell Drive. So that is an area where you could push the the the uh the paved surface in the other direction because the utility pole is not in the way. Utility pole is in the sidewalk.

I you know I look I if if it can't be done it can't be done. I but we've talked about this a few times and we definitely talked about the last meeting. You know let's get the drawing down that shows that it can't be done. and and and there's been plenty of times in my history of doing all this stuff that when you actually get the surveys done and do the measurements like oh actually I guess we could do this. So you know that that's all we're asking for and that's what that's we asked for last. Let's just you know get a survey get get the engineers out there and draw it out and and if it can't be done then fine. Okay that's so and again we don't have a problem doing it if the real estate's there again.

Right. And and may maybe we get surprised once you actually draw it out. Maybe we're surprised and oh, we can do it. It might I I'd be shocked. Yeah, we would be. But let's But you're right to look at it. Black and white. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Um any other questions or how about in I mean I know we haven't heard from Jeff um but any any real concerns from anyone at this point? I mean the intersection for the intersection. Yeah.

So I think a couple points that I was going to make for um touched on one of them. I think the email we got from Jeff between Christmas and New Year's is kind of you know laying out a bunch of different preferences. In an ideal world we have this that I think if we went by that he would have all sorts of issues with these plans and he calls for a minimum 60 foot leveling area. um and things like that. So, I think I'd be interested in his feedback just to see, all right, so this is the reality now that we've got the lineup of kind of what we're dealing with. Um what is the priority? I think one kind of logical plan C might be instead of lining up the the grade to match at Maxwell Drive, line it up to match at that first driveway. And if that, you know, see what that gives us for a difference at Maxwell Drive and is that manageable to give us either a longer leveling area or a shorter grade or maybe both. Um but but yeah, I think either way I'd be curious to see how Jeff's preferences from that email would line up with with this reality.

Isn't Isn't that first Maxwell Drive driveway actually going down? It does. Yes, it does. So So if you were below that then that's not a problem. I don't think so. You don't think so? What? I don't think it would be a problem. Right. Yeah. that that slopes down awaren part of probably Maxwell Drive. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean make it it would probably make it better. But but to to Brian's point, you know, if instead of right right now the drawing and the design is targeting

catching snow road at Maxwell Drive, whereas if it actually pushed it so you're catching snow road at the existing driveway or just just before it, then you you'd be going by Maxwell Drive below it. But that wouldn't be a problem because Maxwell Drive drops off anyways. You're right. So, you know, so you may get a little bit more either either a more gradual rise or a um a longer leveling area, you know, one or the other or maybe a little bit of both. Yeah. What What's this the size of that island? length and width.

The longer the length, how long is it? Yeah. Um, it's about a little under 100 ft long. If you're where I have my station one from where the road where the southbound is going from Snow Road onto Worcester Street, the center line goes from 0 at the curb line. And then when you get up that, you know, the that length of road, it's close. Station 100 is a little bit beyond the length of the island. You see where I'm talking? So, it's a little land view. So it's a little under 100 little under 100 ft.

A little under 100 ft long. So then about a third of the length of the island is the 5%. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But then vertical curve and then 2/3 30t is 5%. And then for the next 30 feet it transitions from five up to 10%. So 60 feet. So it's basically from Worcester Street to about that 320 line. It is correct. Correct. Is the 5% grade and the rest is And then the vertical curve what's going to it's going to be flatter than

Yes. than the 10%. Yes. So from about where that 320 contour is um that's to the edge the curb line of Wester Street. That's all 5%.

So yeah, to to Bill's point, it's a car length and a half. So, um, so I guess it it may technically meet, uh, DO's requirement, but it doesn't seem and again, DOT is going to they're going to chime in and and dictate how we're transitioning into their road as well. So they're they're going to they're not only going to have a seat at the table, they're going to be the dictating the terms.

So you had mentioned that you you were playing phone tag with somebody. Um you confident that you're going to get good feedback, reliable feedback from them soon. I have to I called to try to get a meeting. I left a message. He called me back, left a message, and now I got to try to, you know, Okay, you're But we're hopeful. My question is, do you think you're going to get reliable feedback from them? Like, yes, eventually. Yes. Okay. Right. My concern is that you talk to somebody and and then when it comes time to actually get the approval, somebody else is, "Ah, you can't." And we're good.

Yeah. It's it's it's one of the the head guys over at district 7. Okay. Because I think that'll be important as well, right? I mean, if they turn around and say, you need 100 ft at 5%. I don't see that happening. But but to your point, Yeah. Right. Okay. And then we're, you know, again, they they make the rules. Yeah. So, no, I Exactly. I mean, you know, so I mean, we're having all kinds of conversations here. Yeah. D may be like and the decision maker is is not at the table. I mean is there any way we could know their decision and what their input is before we I think that's that's that was my point. That's what he's trying to trying to get.

So we would know what their thoughts are. So we're going to know we're really not going to have any say. You can impose the condition here. Yeah. That they need to have 3% leveling area for 100 ft or whatever it is. And if he goes back to DOT and they say no, we're not going to approve it, then they'd have to come back here and modify it. Right. But I would think that what we're talking about is what they're going to want too. I mean, they want this as safe as possible, too. I think our interests are aligned. Yeah. They don't want cars plowing into 122 up. They're not going to say, "No, we want a 5% grade if we if we say we want% but they could say they want more than what's here, right?" Right. Oh, even right. So, right now we have 30 30% at five. Yeah.

I mean, we have 30 feet at five. They could say, "No, it needs to be more than that." Well, then that's their problem. They're going to have to figure that out. They're going to dictate the rules. But that's nothing we could That's right. As long as it doesn't get worse. Well, well, except that that starts to affect other things. So, you know, so I I I think we want to know that ahead of time. I think we really want to nail that down, right? So, we know what we're getting into.

Okay. Um, and any other thoughts or comments on the intersection? We're kind of waiting for Jeff. I I do have a comment on the site plan, but I don't want if anyone else has anything to say about the intersection or Snow Road. I mean, I I would just say that this is something that we've raised for a year. Um, and talked about DOT approval and getting DOT involved and to just now be well, you know, trying to work through this with them. I mean, how are we talking another year before that gets sorted out?

Well, I don't think we can't we can't do anything without a signed plan, right, Sean? DOT. Well, typically how it works with DOT is they want if if I was going for a site on Route 9. We would go through the site plan approval process, all the other processes, and get that approved locally and then go to DOT for a curb cut because DOT, they don't want people coming in every, you know, week saying, "Oh, we're going to do this. Oh, wait a minute. We're going to do that." They say, "Wait, finish your local process and then come to us." No, but the the meeting that you're trying to now with DOT could have happened a year ago.

We're trying to we're trying to uh kind of jump the line a little bit and get in front of DOT so that you feel comfortable. Typically, it would be get all your approvals done, get the plan signed, and then come talk to us. So, we're we're trying to jump the line, so to speak. It's not any different than the power company, the gas company. They they won't talk to us until we have a signed plan. We can't go to the power company. We can't go to the gas company. We really can't go to the DOT until we have a signed plan. Right. You're just trying to get some design input. Yes. So, if Brian's point, you know, it could have been done sooner, but here we are.

Well, we could be having the conversation about where the power comes in. We could all talk about that. You could condition it. We go to the mass the power company and they tell us no, it's going to go over here and we'll be right back over there. I got a question for Dan just with the process. Yep. And this is a what if um we're under the hell we under? What's the name? Safe Harbor.

Safe Harbor. So, we put a condition on this with with a a plan approval, site approval that this intersection has to be fixed. After we do that, they go to DOT. They can't appeal our conditions because we're under safe harbor. Correct.

Correct. But after we've signed off on all the plans and the everything, they go to do mass DOT. Mass DOT tells them go pound in. Can they and they come back to us and say it's not our fault. We can't we can't do anything with this incentive section and we say well you can't build a project then. Can they appeal to to uh the state at that point? So the process would be they would be asking for a modification of our of our conditions. Correct. Eliminate this condition. We're not going to make any changes to this intera. Um, and the question is, would that modification decision be subject to safe harbor? That's a great question. It's never been answered. It's never been answered.

Never been answered. I My position would be sure, it's all part of the same project, so it should be under safe harbor. But if we're out of safe harbor at that time, right, that's a great question. I don't know. You don't? There's no case law. I would know the case law. There's no case law on it. Really? That's scary. kind of the only other wrinkle might be the lip specifically required improvements to the intersection. So certain pieces of that would have to be included to still be compliant with the lip. They'd have to modify the lip, but

but then I mean you run the risk of a whole new application starting over. So if if there were hypothetically a condition to say that we have to we said we would add the the turning lane the traffic engineers have both looked at they say yes the tra the turning lane makes it marketkedly better. I don't see DOT saying no no no no we don't we don't want you at a turning lane. I don't think they'll have a problem with that. they may have um obviously input on the slopes, the leveling areas etc. So if there were a condition to the point to the effect that we need to get approval from DOT and meet whatever standards DOT sets for this I I think that would be obviously we're adding the turning lane and then in terms of the design that's based on DOT standards. If if you put a condition that mandates that we build this a certain way particularly, you get real specific and then we go to DOT and they say no, we want done this other way. We'll be right back to you for sure.

Yeah. I Well, that's fine. That's that's fine. What we'd like you do is is you could word it a way that this is your preferred plan. This is the plan we'll move forward with, but if DOT tells us to do it a different way, then we have the flexibility to do it according to their wishes.

Yeah. So now now you're getting into whether something is this a substantial change or not and that's something we can make a determination on when the time comes. I mean, you know, there's going to be some sort of a drawing that we're going to say, you know, you you got to build this and you know, if DOT says something drastically different then or you know s you know, you come back to us and and you know, we either make a deter you know that's that's a huge difference and we need to you know, have a little bit more conversation about it or it's an insubstantial change. Have at it.

Okay. I mean, we we just did this just before the last meeting with with uh Eastwood. I mean, you know, he came in and wanted to tweak the way um you know, they were handing off the the donated land. I mean Oh, yeah. So, you know, we we do that all the time and and and we'll and we'll handle it. I mean, I think we're we're very good about doing the right thing when when it comes to things like that. Right. In in the beginning, we we agreed to make

um a turn lane that would drastically improve the traffic pattern. Now, we're getting very specific here about leveling areas and grading and allowing it, which is not part of our lip. We just agreed to to make a turn lane. Now, you're nailing it down. And I don't know if this is worthwhile or not because again none of none of us here have the ultimate say but so we'll try to get some direction trying to get some direction work on the sidewalks

what they're yeah if they say yeah that seems reasonable you know but and when we look at your formal application you know but this seems like you're it's reasonable at least get some level of of confidence from them. So I I see that Jeff has joined us. So Jeff, we've gone through um essentially their plan A and their plan B for the intersection. Plan B, you know, essentially is not practical because of the, you know, or the conclusion was that plan B is not practical because of the significant cuts that would be required and things along those lines. So, we've really focused on their plan, their option A. Um, you know, at this point, I guess we're looking for your commentary on well, on both of them for that matter. If you think that option B actually is uh reasonable, then we'd want to hear that, I suppose. But

focus on option A and a plan C. And then we we were also talking a little bit about a plan C that might try to extend the uh the the grading instead of meeting a Maxwell Drive uh meeting Snow Road at Maxwell Drive, meeting Snow Road uh a little bit further down at the existing driveway.

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For the record, Jeff Walsh with Graves Engineering, the ZBA's uh engineering cons consultant on uh on site and civil matters. Um with respect to their option plan B um it certainly does not work could not work to the sheer fact the depth of cuts in the existing um driveways that I think in number six and number eight. Um but but using that profile um I having heard a few um discussions in previous public hearings um the op option A is certainly um it's got a levelings area a short one at Worcester Street which is an improvement compared to existing conditions um but unfortunately it because of the topography out there it makes the grade go from just under 9% % at the steepest point, the 10%. Um, Mr. Chairman, if if I may have the liberty, um, I emailed Katrina earlier today, my version of an option C that doesn't go quite to the to the new site driveway, and I'd like to talk through this if I may.

Okay. So, what what we're looking at here um is me marking up um John Grinier's plan. And what you're seeing, if we could scroll down a little bit, Katrina, the pink areas, the hatch pink areas up above. I'd like to describe what those are. Okay, picture wider pink area on the left is uh well, first of all, I'm sure you know we're looking at a profile down the center line of the of the uh alignment which is the approach of Snow Road to Worcester Street. what um has the dash line is the existing center line along the north and what you're seeing in the pink hat on the left is the intersection the southern intersection of Maxwell Drive and on the right up high is this driveway for number six and number eight Snow Road. I put those in because number six and number eight snow road based upon the topography has a downgrade coming from the residence to the edge of pavement of about 6.2%. So this is a design point that's you really can't lower the road anymore in front of number six number eight's driveway um because it would only make that driveway even steeper. Um, and I highlighted Maxwell Drive because that's that's important for the same reason that we want to make sure that there's no um negative repercussions of of regular lining vertically still road with respect to um gaining access into the southern part of Maxwell Drive.

Mhm. So what we're looking at here is um on the what John Gennia had designed showed the proposed center line grade and that at its steepest point is 10% and you can see where it lines up with the pink hatching. It basically meets um it ties into existing horizontal and vertical alignment. Thank you. Right there. um at the at Maxwell Drive, the beginning of Maxwell Drive. Then what I looked at next was could we achieve 8%. So what I did was if you wouldn't mind scrolling down a little bit, Katrina, thank you. At the vertical curve on the bottom left corner, um that is the vertical curve where you come away from Worcester Street. Originally, you came away at 5%. Then you go to a vertical curve to get yourself up to a steeper up steeper grade whatever that may be. And this is about this is about as short of a vertical curve as you would want. Um we describe vertical curves you see above it. Uh K means K is the length of the vert horizontal length of the curve vertical curve divided by the change in grade. It's a way to describe how fast vertically the road grade changes. And this K is something that um based on what I've reviewed uh on many weeks ago um should accommodate comfortably the uh graft and ladder truck. Um and it's not too abrupt. This is much more abrupt than you would want along the higher speed of a travel lane, even 30 mph design speed. But nevertheless, near an intersection under these conditions, I didn't feel it was a problem. So coming away from that vertical curve, I said, "What if we can do an 8%." And

that's the lowest one. And it was orange when I drew it. I I see a yellowish now. Thank you. And that is what I was hoping we could achieve. And if you could scroll down so we scroll so we can see the up uh the other way, please. Thank you. As you can see, it was approaching the driveway in pink of number six and number eight, and we still didn't have room for that vertical curve to get us to the existing braid. So, what that was going to require if we were 8% is is it would require an earth cut in front of number six and eight. So, that didn't work. So, what this told me is we've got to work between the driveway number six and eight and Worcester Street. And then what I come up with for my thought on option C and and um is the red line which I came away from that vertical curve down near Worester Street we talked about earlier. What I tried to do is get a cut earth cut in the center of Maxwell Drive of no more than I mean at the intersection Maxwell Maxwell Drive no more than a foot because that kind of split the difference between the 10% drawn here and the 8% that I sketched on and then I put a vertical curve to it and the vertical curve has got a a K of 19. This is a crest curve unlike the other one is a sag curve. So this is basically a K of 19 accommodates a 30 mph stopping sight distance um because of the rate of curvature vertical curvature. So it's um this as I see is probably something doable. Um it should be further evaluated for impacts like the sidewalk along um the housing authority property would have to be

lowered otherwise the curb would be much too high and other things like that and offg grading on the other side of the street but I don't think that's a problem because we know the pinch point if you will is is the uh driveway up above. Um we do know there's a narrow shoulder on that side of the road. I hadn't evaluated whether the grading would work, but quite frankly, um, hearing that there's another option C on the table, um, I see this is, you know, probably something to consider along with the other option C. And again, my first focus would be on impacts of lowering the road at the driveway number six and eight and impacts to the shoulders to to make sure that either either would work. But this the the thought here was to try to get the best possible situation given all the physical constraints of the site and the roadway and and and so forth. And that 8.9% that that is is worked up here, that's about the steepest grade in the existing portion of Snow Road um down near the approach to Worcester Street. So, I don't see the grade getting any worse. It's a longer 8.9%, but it doesn't get any steeper, and it takes the 8.9% away from the intersection approach to Worcester Street. Um, I'd like to stop there and answer any questions or continue discussion, but

I've got nothing more to offer. I just wanted everybody to see this picture here, and I'm hoping it could also get shared with the applicants team. Yeah, Jeff. So, so this is the same option C that we talked about. Um, essentially is is, you know, instead of instead of meeting Snow Road at Maxwell, we're meeting Snow Road at at 6 and 8. Um, the driveway for 6 and 8. So, it's so it's essentially the same same option C. Um, and I I think at this point the applicant will probably go off and then come up with something similar to this or or explain why it it can't be done. Mhm.

Um so so thank you for that. Um Jeeoff, getting back to what has been presented as far as A and B. Um you know, you've acknowledged that B has too substantial of cuts. So So I I think B is off the table. I think we're all in agreement on that. Um do you have any commentary on A? I mean I mean are we basically okay with A? Uh, is there any serious concerns with A? Um, you know, I I I think we're looking at C is just C could be better, but you know, if C can't be done, do you have any commentary on A?

Um, my commentary on A is that I don't have any major concerns with it whatsoever. Um the 10% grade is not unusual in many old country roads if you will in graft and in other communities. Unfortunately, you know, the 10% near an approach to an intersection. You know, it could work as far as I'm concerned. The the toughest times of course is during inclement weather when there's snow on snow or ice on the road before the uh salt's gotten onto the road. Yep. Got it. Um Yep. Okay.

Yep. But but I don't have any any uh problems with option A. Uh my thought was um just like the horizontal alignment months ago is the you know is is this the best step going forward or is there something that could be done a little bit better? Yeah.

Quite frankly option A to option C there's not a big difference with respect to grades. It's a slight reduction. It's and and that in my in my opinion is good. Um and then it's it's a matter of what is the other ramifications. For example, uh the utility poles in the sidewalk, perhaps with even a foot and a half or two foot cut or reduction in elevation, those poles might have to be um replaced with poles that are drilled deeper, which without changing the alignment of overhead wires and changing certainly T intersection wires down at Worcester Street, in my opinion, it's a pretty low lift, pretty easy lift to change out a pole, if you will. Um it's it's similar to what's done when there's a traffic accident and the pole's damaged. Um but that's that's a lot better than having to reroute poles and change um change wires and all that.

Dan, go ahead. Uh Jeff, it's Dan. Um I I have two questions. The the first question is I didn't I didn't quite follow you as to why the 8% grade doesn't work because it just looking at your diagram, it it seems to match it. I mean, the grade seems to match up at right before the driveway at six uh Snow Road. Um um it did the the 8% grade Dan still does not have the vertical curve a crest vertical curve at the top. If we could scroll down the other way a little bit more. That's good.

I I I saw that it's still a straight line. It's a constant grade going up toward the driveways. I still needed to get a vertical curve to bring it from the 8% grade to the existing 3.6% grade that goes across the driveways, which would take about, if I remember correctly, somewhere up around 90 to 120 ft. And there just wasn't room between the end of the orange line and the pink driveways there to do that. I see. And then I guess related to that though, is is it possible or is there even any value to making the leveling area a little bit longer? So I think the 5% leveling area was what 30 feet.

30 feet. Yeah. Is is there any value, Jeff, in maybe extending that to say 70T or 100 ft and then basically sacrificing an eight or nine% grade but going up to 10 further up? I mean, they're all trade-offs here, but I guess what's better for safety? Is it better to have a more gradual 8% grade or 9% grade versus 10? Or is it better to have a longer leveling area? Um, thinking um I I think if you went with a longer leveling area, I think you'd need more than a you'd need more than a 10%

slope to catch up. So, is are you willing to go over 10%. Are you willing to go 12%. It's it's all taking from here. But go ahead, John. I was giving you time to think. Yeah, exactly. Thank you, John. I was thinking of you too. What is he going to say?

Yeah, a a longer longer leveling area is nice, but in in this situation, it's comes at the expense, and I agree with John 100%. We're probably looking at grades around 11 12% area which puts the car in motion in slippery conditions where maybe somebody can manage a 9% grade. It's all it's all theoretical. I know that once I start skidding, thinking back to my teenage days, uh it's hard to stop skidding once you start, but if you're in control, uh you can, you know, feather the brake and and come to a stop or hopefully not encroach slide too far out into the intersection. So, I'm I'm more l right now. I'm thinking off off the cuff here. I'm more ler of 11 or 12%. And if you want to look at 12%, if anybody take a ride up Christopher Drive, my understanding is that's 12% coming down to um

coming down to Pleasant Street. That's got a long leveling area. And what I've been told by the DPW employees that used to stand and salt that years ago, that's a good example of what we don't want to do anymore. And that's why the subdivision rules and regs went to 10% and now they're down to 8%.

So thinking thinking on that perspective of an operator running the Sander assaltera through there, I'd like to avoid the 12% even though it's a much shorter 12% run than the long Christopher Drive 12%. Is it worth Jeff just asking John to maybe just sketch out I mean we were just kind of speculating that it would be 12 but is is it worth just having you just do that exercise and seeing if you're going to elongate that leveling air a little bit without going over 10%. Or is that not Jeff?

If you're if you're asking me I I think it's a pretty simple exercise and it would give the visual to the ZBA to to help better understand the whole situation. Um, I don't think it's a it's a big ask to uh to put that together. My my thing is is you know we extend the leveling area then the whole thing just shifts and I guess so I'm not quite and I and I'm a visual person so I may need to see the picture to see that. No, it doesn't just shift. We actually have to get steeper. So um

Exactly. Exactly. That pink blob on the top right um needs to stay there. Well, it's it's Yep, that's there. And whereas the their driveway is already about a 6% grade. Dropping the road down, in other words, extending the the realign vertical realignment to the right of their driveway means their driveway gets steeper and um that's not that driveway just keeps climbing from the from the edge of pavement all the way up. So, yeah. Yeah, it's kind of a fixed. We got two fixed points. was the street and now right um I very much realized that the driveway to number six and eight's another fixed point and that's all we got to work with.

Yep. Understood. Mr. Chairman, can I ask Jeff a question? Absolutely. Jeff Steven and Kle um I I was talking to the board earlier about the fact that we were at 9% what we 10% 10% and 100

and I was telling them it was it was only 100 feet and that it wasn't that significant. Um do you want to elaborate at all on the length of the roadway um where it's we're right now now we're 10% and and the length of the road if it was a 12% and how those two factors you again I was stating that that it was a short distance and it wasn't that significant versus if that was 300 ft long at at 8% that would seem worse than uh 100 ft at 10%. You're absolutely absolutely right, Steve. The longer a climb um let's say accelerating up the street, the harder it is to climb um and get any momentum. Um if it's a short little short little steeper place, um if it's coming away from an intersection, it's just as tough as a 10%. But if you were, let's say, traveling along a speed, whether it's 30 m an hour somewhere or 50 miles an hour, if you come up a short little rise, you know, a loaded truck, it's you can make it up over that pretty easily. Long run, at some point you might be downshifting. Um looking at it in the downhill direction. Um again I shorts shorts um nicer but steep is the thing that gravity pulls us down something steep. Um and and again looking thinking about not wet conditions which roads are typically designed for but thinking about the salt I mean the um ice and snow. Um, if you can keep a vehicle from getting into a skid to begin with, they might be all right. So, even, you know, a short short at 12% versus a little longer at 9%, I'd be inclined to lean to the 9%,

but I don't have any data or research or any any um publication to back that up. Thank you, Jeff. Welcome. Okay, more question. Any questions from the board? So, I I I think where we are at this point is we we've we've got an option A. Um we just have a we have some thoughts about a C and um I don't know if it's even a a D that would extend the um the leveling area. We just maybe draw some of that out and and show us what what does or doesn't work. Okay. Um, other any other questions or comments?

Sidewalks are and then and then sidewalks. We talked about a little bit more detail on the sidewalk. So, we you know, let's let's let's get that resolved as well. Um, moving on to the site plan. Um, do you want to talk I think you've made some changes to this. Do you want to talk about those? Yeah, the only the only change we made I know in um the last iteration they were looking at having um a a garage. So they which was over in that back right closer. So we got rid of that that um like maintenance garage maintenance garage and we put it under building one.

Yeah, that's going to go underneath building one where the Okay. where the under is it? It's mainly appliances and appliance parts that we store there. So, and then um so we got rid of that so there wouldn't be hypothetically somebody down the road decides to, you know, store fertilizer or something ridiculous over there. It's so we got rid of that. So, and that would be like Steve said um underneath in the lower level of um building one. I again we don't have any fertilizers on site any of our properties right now, but I guess it could happen in the future. So, we move.

Yep. Um, one comment that I have, um, I tried, it's probably sitting back at my desk somewhere. The fire department said they wanted that access road behind the buildings to be paved. They want it to be they don't want it to be, you know, grassed or, you know, they or they want to have it something that can be plowed so that if there's, you know, a a snowstorm and they want something that can be accessible year round.

So, I like I said, I I I just tried to find an out. I think it might be might be home, but I'm I'm quite certain that and I think it's most recent communication we got from the chief actually used the words paved. Yeah. So, a solid surface that can be plowed. So, if if if Okay, you're saying that I I thought it said paved. That's So, we just want to make sure I I I understand what you what's what's written here is a a stable surface that right they can set up their truck on. Correct. what I thought I read was paved, which is different than what's being drawn here. And I think you just want to make sure, right, that we're doing what the fire department wants,

right? and and the from aesthetics to have an asphalt driveway is, you know, wrapped around the building. If if it can be definitely a solid drivable surface and be more aesthetically pleasing and almost use it as a um a walking path, as another part of an amenity. That's the goal. That's the We were wondering if we if we could make two paths with a grass strip in the middle. um that will and we but we don't know if that'll be acceptable fire department, but that's what we're thinking we're going to propose. Now, obviously, we have to satisfy the fire department. We know that that that's my point, right? Yeah. So,

so we're trying to ride the line of of aesthetically pleasing and obviously functional year round. So, that's the goal that we all want to meet. So, would it be maintained and plowed or just plow a bowl if needed? They want So if there is a reason to get back there, they don't want a foot of snow on the ground if they have to get around there. So it has to be plowed. It has to be plowed. Yeah. So if you did the grass plot in the middle, would that be asphalt, concrete, or gravel? The the uh part that you the wheels are on. Um we could actually do it any surface. Yeah. Um down the Cape, they do it in cobblestones. Mhm. Have you ever seen that seash?

No. But that mean that would be aesthetically pleasing, too. I know we're not going to do that here, but that So, we're going to do it at your house, Peter. What whatever is acceptable by the fire department. Um, and and the goal is to make it functional and hopefully aesthetically. More than likely, it's going to be asphalt. And we don't like the idea, but that's You mean with a grass plot in the middle if you could? Possibly. Unless they say no and then we'll I wouldn't have a problem with that myself. Can you plow that though with a grass in the middle? Oh yeah. It's easier than plowing gravel. At least the plow's on You can plow grass. Huh? You can plow grass

once it's frozen. Not good. The plow's going to ride in the asphalt. It's not going to ride on the grass. The grass is down. Oh, you'd have to raise it up and then keep the grass. The grass is down below the asphalt. Oh, okay. Mr. Chair, I've got the email if you want me. Does it say paved? Yeah. So, um with both option A and B from the last plan sets, uh the fire department access road would need to be paved with asphalt to handle the weight of the fire department apparatus. Okay. And ensure it's maintained throughout all seasons of the year. Okay. But you got the point and you you've said it. Whatever they want. Whatever they want. They want you to paint it pink. We got the point. We don't like it, but we got the point. We don't like it.

Understood. It's all these these safety things that they never that'll never get used. It's a whole life safety thing, huh? Hope hopefully not. It'll never get used. Hopefully not. It's a fully sprinkled building. You hope so. Yeah. It's a fully sprinkled building. It'll never get used. That's the idea. Y All right. Um other So the the only change you made on on Yes. on the site plan is the garages are it's no longer maintenance. It's red garages. Yeah. So, I guess in theory we pick up what? Four more spots or eight more spots, whatever. Yeah. Is it two four? Is it two four stalls or two? Um I you know it any questions or comments from the board?

The whole on the basement or or the whole plan? What do the playground area? The whole plan. The the dog park is bigger than the playground which but could the playground be that whole square there? Well, we think there's a value of just open space, just grass because people will it be fenced in or open? Oh, no. Oh, so fenced in official playground area with equipment and I believe Cohen they for insurance purposes you need it is fenced in or won't be fenced in. Coen Babcock. Um, no it won't be. The playground won't be fenced in, but for insurance purpose, you need 10 feet around the entire playground of clear space.

Okay. The dog park will be fenced in, the playground won't. So, I mean, everybody could walk on the grass anyways then. Correct. Okay. So, the whole thing would probably be used as a playground, right? And then somebody wants to We typically put a different surface under the playground area. Sometimes we put a rubber rice surface just because of wear and tear. And the rest would be grass. Yes. With lom under it. up. Yes. I took a ride uh through Milbury the other day and your apartments on is that Canal Street? There's some Canal and some uh How? Both.

Oh. Oh, that yours how way down on the left? Oh, okay. Um I'll check them out too. But um up on a hill. Yes. Um, one on how I I saw the one on Canal and I noticed because of the just the little storms we've been having probably 10 or 12 cots are taken up with snow piles. I don't know if I think there's two or three and actually we had a machine in there today moving that out. I figured they would be. But did you load it out and truck it out or? No, we just brought a loader in and moved it to another spot. Uh that there's there's a lot of areas that we can place a snow, you know.

Where would you do that here? I'm curious where you'd put snow here. Don't we have do we have snow storage here or something? We do.

I never did apartment complexes. I did uh computer companies and uh state roads and town roads, but I've never done a apartments like this. And just driving through that to me, it's a nightmare because half the some of the cars never move. Well, we we we would put the snow typically on the parking areas further away from the building until we found that things tightened up and then we remove it. And that's that's we're doing that now that we've we've got some snow on some parking lots on all of our projects and we just sent the machine in there today as a matter of fact. Yeah.

To remove that anticipation of the next storm coming up. So that's something that we just manage internally a after Monday if anybody's going by apartment complexes. I'm No, really. Really? If you're going by a big apartment complex, I'm I'll get an education seeing it. But, uh, they move. Well, if you don't want to have to worry about plowing snow, just move into one of our developments. We take care of the We take care of the whole thing for you, Peter.

I'm serious. If I may on that point, um Peter, I see uh the big grass area just north of the dog park is a great place that you know going in for um few days after a storm and load just bucketing stuff around that area there. Also to the left of building number five. Yeah.

Um a little bit down, a little bit down, a little bit down and left and left and left. Yep. another area. Um, I used to work at where I we used to have to snow plow an office park where it wasn't wide open. It was all these little nooks and crannies. And I can remember to the point where we had to do a couple all nights and just pushing it around. And it's amazing where you can find places away from landscaping and intersections and all that. Um, you know, even if it's 50 yards here and 50 yards there on grass, sooner or later, you can stack up a lot of snow. Just got to get the cars moved out of the parking spaces so you can bucket it over there.

We're probably going to have about 40 spaces empty on this project, which should give us a lot of snow storage without even coming off. Really? Yeah, we think so. Oh, and that but that could that could move down to 10, that could move up to zero. you know it we don't you know it depends on how dem demographics move in and right how many cars they have and all the rest so do you anticipate hauling snow off the site no not really okay cuz that would be a lot of truck traffic yeah we don't anticipate that

so um at this point I I think we have a plan I I And I well, I'm just going to say it. I I I I think we're at the point where we need to start moving forward with a plan. And by start moving forward, I mean it's time to start um telling the applicant we need to get the waiver requests. Um Dan needs to start thinking about um writing and drafting a decision with conditions and we need to start, you know, wrapping this up. Um I I don't know, as I've said, I'm okay with what is being presented here. uh this this site plan a with the new modifications. Um the idea of the four-story buildings and you know that sort of thing. Um I I don't know how other people feel, but I I think at some point we need to just decide we're going forward with something. And you know, I I think if if others really hate what's sitting in front of us right now and they're going to vote no matter what happens, you know, no way I'm going to do this. And I think we owe it to the applicant to tell him and so he doesn't waste any more time. But I I think I don't think we're there. I think I'm okay with this. I think we should have him start getting waiverss in front of us and uh Dan should start drafting a decision. Okay. Others, how you feel about this?

I I agree. Thank you. I agree. If it was half the size, I'd feel better. Understood. Come on up to the writings, Pete. What's that? Come on up to the writings of Adam's Road. Oh, Alex. Um, yeah. I I would say I um I would agree with you, Bill. I mean, you know, I think uh you you guys have done a I do think it's going to be a great looking project, but I think yeah, there's obviously some, you know, some things that we need to uh to put on paper. So, yeah.

Um you know, with respect to waivers, you guys have not been in front of us on the 40b.

We we don't do some some people like the idea of blanket waivers. We just wave the whole bylaw. We don't do that. If you're encroaching on a setback at some point, then we need to identify where and we need to have a waiver for the setback requirement. And you know, so we want to be specific about the waiverss. We don't and that's maybe going to be a little tedious and take a little time, but that's the way we've done the dozen or so 40Bs that I've been involved with in town. And um you know, that's our expectation at this point. Um, as far as conditions, Dan, I think you've got a handle on what we've been talking about the various conditions. Obviously, we still have some some work to do on the intersection and that sort of thing, but I think we can maybe we can start working in that direction,

you know, and um start moving this forward. And just on the waiverss, um, we do like to see a breakdown of where you comply and don't comply with the planning board subdivision rules and regs. Even though this is not a subdivision, you know, road design standards, road width, things like that, depth of pavement and subbase. And this is the the regulation. This is what's proposed. This is the just to if you see if you've seen our other decisions, you'll see how we do it. It's in tabular form and if I can actually send that to you in Word. Yeah. And then you could take what we've done in the past and just modify that to that'd be perfect. Yeah, that'd be perfect.

Yeah, I would imagine the last two decisions would be good. You know, those are both apartments. Pleasant Street and up the street. Does the planning board have regulations for like parking lots and this type of thing? I thought it was just roadways. I think they do. parking lots. I I don't know. Jeff would know. Um the the parking lot information is in the zoning bylaw. There's a section for parking and loading. But that that's okay.

Yeah. And for site plan review that I when I review site plans on behalf of the planning board, um the planning board will either be considering special permits or site plan approval or both. And um again, we look to the um zoning bylaw with respect to parking and whatever information you may be concerned about. Um

give us a copy of the the other decision. Any other comments or thoughts or questions? Uh, this is a a public hearing. Does anyone in the audience care to comment or speak? And do we? She's getting up, so I'll assume that's a yes. Yes.

I just wanted to make sure I have my thing correct. I'm Tammy Mccclure. I live on 24 Suzanne Terrace. Um I'm not sure if we have discussed this since Jay Cummings had talked about the fact um that we need an override. Our schools are in great danger of losing um a lot. So he did mention too that these developments are going to have a a big impact on our schools and so that is something to take into cons consideration. So, if you're still doing 200 housings, I know they claim that's only going to be like nine kids, but with the housing shortages, we're going to have families in these buildings. And I know that like especially North Grafton, we don't have any extra space, never mind having more kids. Like, we can't make another classroom. And again, we have the potential of losing, I think, what do you say, 15 teachers. I don't know, someone can correct me on that. So, this is very concerning to have this type of development. And again, um we had talked about this um about the road um snow road coming down to and I was listening to him and oh well, we can't do that and we're just going to do the um right away. We've asked this developer to do these traffic things, talk to DOT. He claims he can't talk to DOT. are and I I have a hard time believing that DOT won't just like talk with them and say, "Okay, so if you have this, you want to propose something like this." Like there's no reason why they can't have a chat, not have to do any kind of signatures for that. So that's very frustrating. I'm still very concerned about our water. Again, crappy water in Grafton. This is going to have an effect. I don't think that they're taking that into consideration as much as they have. I know that we had a neighbor that had come and spoke about it before about um I just I don't have that information with me about how it's

not it's going to drain and I don't know what happened with the veneer pool that they were supposed to have. There was so many things that they said they were going to do so many surveys. They were going to have a traffic um survey done on the road to see how many cars are going. And it's just really frustrating because it feels like every time I come here all I hear is, "Oh yeah, yeah, we'll do it." Oh, no, we haven't. And so, I understand that you want to move on with this project and you know, it's critical because of the whole safe harbor thing, but it's extremely frustrating because we come here, some of the neighbors, we try to come here as much as we can, but this has just been I feel like he's just making excuses hoping that we'll run out of safe harbor. And I really hope that we take this other stuff into consideration, especially since we literally just had this conversation with Jake Cummings and the school system and how we're not doing so well. So, thank you.

Thank you. Just one comment on that. I And this maybe a question for Dan, but I I believe the environmental stuff, the vernal pool, um is all they still have to meet those regulations and still have to do that survey in the spring. Um so th those don't go away. Those are all still required. Well, it depends. It depends if it's the state jurisdiction. So, I think you said you're applying you're going to do an NOI after this because it's work within the buffer.

So, they will go in front of conservation commission under the state act. The local bylaw is subject to waiver by us, but we don't have to wave the bylaw or we can wave some of the bylaw other parts of the bylaw. So, the conservation commission can require the applicant to do the survey for a vernal pool. I know the issue you're talking about is in the upper right hand corner what direction that is uh of the site where there there there may be a vertal pool up there right they the commission may require them to do that survey you can obviously go to the commission hearings um and if there is in fact a vertical pool there then they'll have to make adjustments to their design so they comply with those standards

okay so when you do if you do decide to sign something you that will be in fact like they may have to change their whole thing completely if these things are not met. Well, that's up to them. So, if they if the conservation commission makes them do the survey, if there's a vulnerable pool there and the commission says in their decision, they have to treat that as a vernal pool, then they have obligations under state law to make this there's performance standards that apply to vernal pools under state law. Okay? So, they would have to comply with those and if doing so would require a modification of the design, they'd have to come back to the zoning board to propose that modification. Okay, that sounds good. Thank you,

Mr. Chair. I can speak a little bit to the the school question. I I had a bit of an exchange when this hearing first started um with uh Dr. Cummings on enrollment. So, I knew at some prior um school committee hearings, they had talked about um reports they had gotten from NEZD, which is a agency that they guess community statewide um contract with to do these sorts of projections. And he sent me the latest analysis they got, which is the one he's been referencing in meetings um from 2024. It included projects that were currently in the pipeline at that point. And so in those projections, it had this development at 268 units. So these this development is already baked into those projections. It actually 68 more units than than are currently proposed.

Can I come back up and just I just want to say one more thing though. Um, so when they do these school surveys about having kids in the school, I I had asked this before about having an actual study in reference to the North Grafton schools, especially North Street School. There is zero space there. I mean, there are empty classrooms in the high school. There's um, I believe empty classrooms in the Milbury Street School, but there is zero classrooms at North Street School, and there's no way to even add a add a room. It is jam-packed. So, I don't know if the school committee would be or Jay would be willing to discuss that because this project would absolutely cause issues at that school. So, just as it is, our classrooms are already higher. We have a lot of kids in the class um classes more than they should and with the possible not getting the funding, our classroom sizes are going to get bigger and without even being able to have another classroom, it's just the kids are going to be in there like sardines. So, just another thing to consider. Thank you.

The way I've always understood it, and correct me if I'm wrong, Dan, we can't even consider schools sewer or anything like that. And isn't it in the state's opinion if we say something we're going to down this project because of schools? They're going to say build a new school. If we need sewer capacity, they're going to say add on to your sewer system. But you're in safe harbor. So you you can, right? Now you're in safe harbor. when you're out of safe harbor. You're correct. Right.

And and I know your plight. Don't I'm not I'm not confused. Like so if the state comes back and says, "Well, you just got to build build another school." Like we don't have the money. So how does that how does that work? It's it's the same with all the mandates they give all these school committees. They say you have to do this, you have to do that, but we don't give you any money. And that's why we have town meetings that and our tax rate goes crazy. So like how can they force that on us if we literally have no money? I don't I just don't understand these like mandates like them telling us like

the theory is that and I'm not I don't believe it but but the theory the policy is that towns have to develop more affordable housing. If it means you have to spend more on infrastructure then you have to do that as well. So that that's the argument. that that's a policy argument for requiring towns to have to build their infrastructure to meet their affordable housing demand even if it's going to cost money and has you have to raise taxes to to do that. Now, there are some defenses. I mean, if if there's a huge cost that's that a town cannot possibly do or if we don't have water, like for example, some towns don't have water. Some towns are out of water. Some towns have water limits based upon their water withdrawal limits from D. In those types of situations, there's exceptions and so the housing appeals committee may not force the town to accept a 40 project if that requires some extraordinary expense. But in this case, it's all fact-based. So your your scenario is well, we'd have to build another classroom. So we'd have we would have to get into all this evidence like what would that take? Would that is there a room on the site at the school to build a classroom? Maybe maybe not.

In which case, yeah, the town could potentially have a defense that to to accommodate this project would would require the construction of a new school at $20 million. And and we can't do that. that that could be a defense, but it's unlikely, as Peter said, in nine times out of ten cases, um the town would lose that kind of argument. Okay. And and you you you voice that there's room at some of the other schools. So the state earlier, we'll redraw your districts,

you know, change, you know, make North Street School different grade levels, you know. So you you know that's that's really I mean the the likelihood of doing something like that is is slim. But your frustration is how can the state do this? Well, we're we're in a bind without this project and and I keep hearing from the school committee that one of the big reasons is unfunded mandates from the state. That's what Peter was alluding to. Yes. Well, how can they do it? I I don't know how they can do it, but they do it all the time. Okay. Well, I just And oh, by the way, they're also not going to let you raise your taxes by or raise your levy limit by more than two and a half%. Right. They do it all the time. How? I don't know. It's way beyond the

Well, I appreciate you taking the time to explain that to me because it just it doesn't make sense. Like, how are we going to build them? But, by the way, it's frustrating to me, too. We can't the students we have. So, I I find it frustrating that we're having this debate about, you know, uh an override. I It just it drives me crazy. I mean, it's just But, you know, that's the the state the commonwealth, right? Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um just because taxes came up um I know you guys have prepared a fiscal impact analysis for your praise project in Auburn. Oh, in Auburn. Yeah. Um, have you guys I don't remember if there was something in maybe your initial presentation or have you guys done a fiscal impact analysis,

additional tax revenue, you know, potential impact on Yeah. I think in the original application to the mic. Oh jeez. Sorry. Um I think in the original application package I think there was I mean it was that thick and I think that's one of the sections. I actually I I didn't think they did it. I know that the last two apartment they did and was very well done. Even if there was something originally, obviously it's a much different project now, right? It wouldn't be I in my opinion, I think it'd be worth updating or or preparing just Yeah. Absolutely.

Put something out there. You know, this is what, you know, we'd expect for, you know, additional tax forever. You're right. Right. And it's not just all positives, right? It's, you know, there's going to be, you know, an incremental impact on schools. There's going to be an incremental impact on public safety. Um, and I think, you know, the analysis that was done in Auburn, I think, was was good. I think update it for numbers for this project. Um, you know, it shouldn't be that heavy a Okay. Anyone on uh line that wants to speak? Uh, yeah. Hold on. Wendy does. Go ahead, Wendy. Hi. Hi.

Sorry, I had to be somewhere else today, so I've been trying to listen on Zoom. Um, so I'm still really thrown off how we came to like 200 units because I I'm really concerned like that's so big of a project and it's so many people. Like I'm worried when our our wildlife is going to be displaced. Our schools are going to be overcrowded. Whatever we say they're going to be because Jay had a number of it was like over a hundred kids came into the district and only like 30 something went out and those were only approved projects. So I don't know where the projection is with this one, but he was talking about the kids that physically already came in. And then um the wells going to end up being contaminated. We we talked about snow needs to be moved off of the property. Like snow comes with contaminants. So now we're melting the snow into our well. And if we continue with this the the I I'm a little confused about like the option A. But if are are we not like are we not making straightening out like making a 90° angle anymore potentially? No, we're we're No, we're we're we're doing the the fork that's been discussed at the last few meetings where that that is being done.

So, it is straightening out the angle cuz yes,

because most of the traffic that stops me is coming from the left. So, I'm really concerned about having like the right turn lane blocking me because the the worst part is the CVS people coming out of the CVS driveway. That CVS is busy and like when the lights clear, someone's coming out of CVS. It's really hard to make that turn. But so I I'm concerned we're going to end up with a fatality. Like that's so many people. So to us like Bill like it seems like you had like to put it bluntly a secret meeting and we went from like this is too much this is too much to you being like I advocate for 200 apartments. Can you share more on how you came to like 200 apartments is okay given all of these things the well the added traffic and then you know the stuff that's more minor to most people but like displacing wildlife and the schools.

You know what I really object to this to the to the insinuation that I had some sort of secret meeting. I I object to that strongly. You have absolutely no basis for something like that. I don't know who the hell you think you are, but you do not have a right to insinuate that I'm doing something underhanded. I've been on this board for over 20 years, and my record stands for itself. You be quiet. Mute her.

I had a meeting with the with the applicant and I shared that I had that meeting. as for why it seems like I'm suddenly in favor of this. Whether anyone likes it or not, we are out of safe harbor in a month and this applicant can walk away, pull this application, and come back with his original application or bigger and we're going to be stuck with it. You want 300 units, that's what we'll get. Anybody else?

No. All right, we need to schedule next meeting. How much time do you think you need? Where are we?

So, I think Bill, we need three things from them. You're going to they're going to explore the um the snow road, plan state. They're going to give us the waiver list and survey. Survey and then a financials. Financials. And financials. Yeah. Financials. Well, the the tax analysis, you're not going to believe this, but the last meeting we went to, we back home, made the phone call, ordered that survey, and we still don't have it. We really did order that. Oh, yeah. And I've been Unfortunately, we don't control all the processes. I was told it was going to be done before the end of the year,

before Christmas. He didn't say which year. Yeah. So, so we're not ignoring you. We heard you last time. We ordered that right away and we didn't get it. Yeah. And then I made the second I said where we need the location of the of the neighbor's wall. We Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're So, the fact is that we know we believe that there's not enough room there, but we need to specifically locate it and show you, right? We know that. I've been killing them with kindness. We know that um to push them along. And so that's why when I'm looking all this this other stuff like I it's it's I think we can have this stuff like in a couple weeks else. Yeah. So but

if we can and then it's going to snow Sunday. So it's going to screw up beginning of next week. So with the waiver thing would probably take the longest. The waiver list on I feel like the survey is less important because we can impose the condition and if it doesn't work with the survey they can come back. Yeah. But I think with the waiver list we need for the decision. Waiver list we definitely need. I think that's the most important thing from our perspective and I think yours and we had an initial waiver list with the original application which obviously with that needs to get tweaked and modified and stuff I'll send you document tonight or tomorrow. Yeah, I mean we could probably have that in a couple of weeks. So give us give us give us three weeks on it. three weeks.

Would it be the earliest? I I think somewhere between. Would it be possible to get a balloon test to see how high those buildings are? I'm not asking for the um we gave you something better than that. We we we paid a lot of money for that. Um what was what was it called? The video. Yeah. But it had leaves. Speak to that. So that so that 3D rendering that was that was done to scale that was they used GIS maps. the we did a survey the the whole street area survey. He had the survey. He had the plans. He had the GIS maps. It was pretty extensive and it like Steve said it cost a a lot of money to have

I realize and I'm not asking for that in the winter. I'm just there was leaves on it so you couldn't they hide everything. Is is a balloon test really expensive? They're below the trees. Regardless whether you do it with leaves or without it's below the tops of the trees. If if the the building could be 20t tall, if there's no leaves, you're going to see it.

It It's not a practical thing. What we did for you was way better and way more expensive what we gave you. The balloon test would have been like really cheap and easy, but it wouldn't have been realistic as what we gave you. So, can you do the balloon dust or no? I'm going to go to Party City. Just go get a balloon. I mean, it's a big balloon, but No, I mean Huh. What do you think? I I wasn't impressed. They They spent all that money for that that video. And I

I agree. I think the video is obviously the best thing, but if you own a balloon I didn't like it, but I'm only one member. So, I I was okay with the video. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'll uh I'll I'll go into the office. I'll look at it again. I'll have I'll have uh Katrina pull it up because if I try, it'll take me a week. So, all right. So, the top of the 26th February. That's perfect. Which is it? Well, we had we have a continuation scheduled for that night. Wait, what? What date? The 26th. Oh, yeah.

Is it something easy? It's they've requested a continuence. But so essentially, it's an empty meeting at this point, but Kay is not here. All right. So, Oh, that's right. You're gone. March 5th. Was somebody else not here? I may not be here. March. So, not just bake in your time to prepare the the waiver list to bake in enough time for Jeff to review it. So, if we we set a meeting date, I think it should be enough lead time for both of those things to happen with a goal set for the middle that you know you guys will definitely get us and Jeff date and then Jeff will get to us by the meeting date.

26th of February. February. February. February. 26th. Yeah. No, I'm gonna I'm leaving the 26th. I'm not back until March 7th. Would you like to do a week after or a week before? Do we normally have Jeff review the waiverss? Yeah, we do. Okay. Or could we do Does it have to be a Thursday? No. So, now when So, can we do earlier earlier in that last 25th of February? 25th. So, yeah. What year? 25. Yeah. I leave on the 26th. So, yeah. The 25th. 25 is a Wednesday. It's a Wednesday. Oh, I'm bad. Sorry. 24. That's fine with me. But um we won't get to we get this room.

Hold on. Let me double check. Do they have meetings? Fourth select board and they're going to be doing budget and stuff. Well, we could go up to school. Nope. School committee is up an F. Yeah. Unless they do a combined meeting and they're both in the same room. I don't know. 19th the 19th. I'm all right with that. Thursday the 19th. Yeah, that works. Is that school vacation week? School vacation week. It is school vacation week. Um, I can do it. I'm leaving Friday, so that's why. Yes, school weeks. Yeah. So, can you get the waiverss fit? Probably two weeks. Yeah. Yeah. So, two weeks before.

Yeah. So, it gives us two weeks to get everything done and get them to me. to get them to be to get them to them. The 5th, February 19th, and we are closed on Monday the 16th. So, Monday the President's Day. President President's Day. But we we would want them by the like the week of the 2nd, no later than probably Monday the 9th. We would want that by How long does Jeff need though, Jeff? Are you around? Jeff, I am around. Um 19th works fine for me. And I'm sorry, what was the date that they were going to get the uh waiver request to you, Katrina? Hopefully by Monday the 9th.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, no problem. I'll make pointed up. I'm ready. And um usually what I do is is um sit through the meeting and engage in the discussion, but you usually don't see a letter from me ahead of time. Is is that acceptable? Um I'll be prepared. That's not a problem. What do you mean? That's what you usually do. I I think that's fine. That's worked in the past. I'll bet that's what he is. I don't actually remember a letter. Yeah. I mean, if you can get it to me a couple days before the meeting, that way when we're at the meeting, if we've got your comments teed up, that that's helpful for me. Well, no. What he just said is he doesn't normally do a letter, so he would just be prepared to talk as we're going through them. Oh, yeah. That's what he's usually done before.

Is that what Okay. Yeah. You don't mark them up, Jeeoff? I forgot. I I'd be glad to mark them up and um and send those over to you, Dan, days before the meeting. I But I usually I usually don't issue a formal letter. Yeah, just do whatever you normally do. Okay. Okay. Yep. I'll get I'll get your notes. Um yeah, however Yeah. Okay, we're good. So, what day are we proposing the meeting? 19. the 19th. 19th 19th. Yeah. Okay.

And John, I just sent you the email with the Upen Street draft decision, which is that's the it's the final decision award with the table with the waiver table again. Beautiful. Thank you very much.

All right. Then uh I obtain a motion to continue case number 910 to um February 19th at 7 p.m. So moved. Second. Okay. Motion remains seconded. Uh roll call vote. Miss Reed. Yes. Mr. Waller. Yes. Mr. Adams. Yes. Mr. Mahia. Yes. Um Vice Chair. Yes. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Good. Thank you. 850 points today. Wow. Can we just punt on the uh the Greenland. I'll be happy to or just now. They're happy with me now. We got the other months. Um, is there a motion to adjurnn? So moved. Second. Miss Reed? Yes. Mr. McCusker? Yes.

Mr. Adams? Yes. Yes. Can't wear. Thank you, Miss