Municipal Solid Waste Advisory Committee - Regular Meeting

Can I call us to order, please? Okay. Um, and I'm just grabbing the agenda for tonight's meeting. Uh, we do have the meeting minutes from our most recent meeting which was back on December 3rd. Uh, I hope that everyone has had a chance to review by this point. Yeah. Okay. Uh, then I would move to have those meetings approved and we can do that by uh roll call vote. Yep. Second. Yeah. Okay. You beat me to it.

Okay. For great in favor. Thank you. So, uh, Um and then secondly on the agenda uh we have that we are scheduled to review the cost estimate for pay as you throw and automated collection style programs. Yeah. So I've um with your approval Mr. Chair I will share my screen please

and uh we can we can get going here. Okay. Can everybody see that? We're good to go. Okay.

Um, so I spent I spent some time kind of mapping out our pay as you throw um and looking at again what automated pickup might look like. I've spent some time um looking at other contracts as well as um on the phone with the folks at Harvey who've been very helpful at helping understand what that might look like and what the budget implications of that are. Um so first um this is just a breakdown of cases of and rolls of bags sold in the town of Grafton um for the previous fiscal year. Um, and so this is important data because it helps drive what we're going to need to to raise um to cover the cost and how that looks. So, um, currently our program is being bringing in about $841,000. So, that's with a small roll being $8 and a large roll being $14. Um the cost of bags um based on the case of 200 um cost us about 130,000 which means that revenue minus costs uh comes out to about 710,000 which um if we look at the program cost of a little over 1.2 million 1.28 million um leaves us in a deficit of about 575,000. Um, so that gets us the delta that we used at a previous town meeting when setting up our enterprise fund of moving uh $600,000 out of the general fund to cover this this or out of free cash to cover this delta as we establish the enterprise fund. Um, and feel free if I

if I go too quick to uh let me know and we'll we'll back right up. Um, so this slide is modeling what we would need to do on a bag fee increase um,ish. So none of these are set in stone. You'll also notice that they are whole dollar amounts. They can be uh, you know, we can dial this in, but this gives us kind of a road map of what that might look like. So, if small bag a small bag roll went to $15 and a large bag roll went to $24. Evan, could you say what the price currently is for bags?

Yeah, so small bag roll is $8 and the large bag roll is $14. Yeah, thank you.

Okay. Um, so if we wound up with uh something that looks similar to this, 15 and 24 or or some variation thereof, um, that would bring our revenue up to 1,483,000. Again, give or take, maybe we we tweak that. um our cost would remain about 130,000 131,000 um which leaves us a balance to the positive of 130,000. Now let me I'm going to just digress a little bit into the 130,000. Um that is uh you know a rough estimate of what I think we might we might need to to to um bring in over and above what the program costs to cover what we were going to see with people buying bags early if they know that the price is going to go up. Um and you know potentially um this leads to a shift in recycling drives recycling up. People use less bags. We need a buffer to be able to cover that. Right. So that that's what that 130,000 uh is. Um I will be the first to admit that's not the most scientific number. That's that's um based on bestcase um analysis of um spikes we saw in previous years when we had to move the the the um the bag price, right? We saw a spike in purchasing. So, it's kind of looking at what that percentage gain looked like. Um and then you know a a little bit of it is um you know not not wishful budgeting but um

speculative budgeting based on what we think we might see in that increase in recycling. Um Mike, do you have a question? I saw you on mute or you I was just just thinking out loud here. Um

or sorry thinking to myself, no, I do not have a question. Okay, sorry, just didn't want to move off this slide. Is everybody good with this slide as where we are currently? Okay, so that's the basic kind of nuts and bolts of how we got to to that number. Um, what does that look like looking kind of as a cost per household um analysis? If this was fiscal, I'm basing this on the fiscal 25 kind of model because that's the one I have the full data for as bag sales and everything else. Excuse me. So, um, if we were using the the prices that I just showed on the previous page, um, you can see that a household using one bag a week, small bags, you'd wind up at about $156 a year. Um, and large bags around $249 a year. Okay. Um, and then obviously it scales up. The more you use, the more you pay. Um, so and I I have done a little uh sampling of folks when they come in the municipal center. I I pounce on them and say, "How many bags of trash do you do you use a week?" Uh again, um we can back into it based on um what we have for data of bag sold, but um I I do see a lot of senior citizens in the municipal center. So I I I kind of not selfishly, but uh I do have a a a vested interest in seeing what their costs may be. Um, yeah, Mike.

So, Amber provided the bag sales figures for Grafton for the past three years. Yep. Um, I went through that just like you did, but for three years back, and scraped in all of the numbers and sort of projected out what our current usage is per house in terms of average bags, average gallons, you know, let's assume that every bag is full. Um, stuff like that. Um so if you need those numbers they are available um on the shared drive I put them under the waste zero folder if you want okay you don't you are not compelled to look at that but if you want to

excruciating analysis I will gladly look at that Mike um any any help kind of running this data together in a second third fourth set of eyes on it is uh is helpful um and just just the act of pulling the that the bag sales that that's a tricky data set. Very different orders. Changes format several times. Bag fees went up three times in two years. Yeah. Yep. I I

bag price, sorry. What town of Grafton pays to get the bags printed. And that's the other kind of moving target with that $130,000 buffer is um we have gotten some significant um price stabilization or close to stabilization by buying lots of bags. So we might try to buy an entire year's worth of projected bag sales if we know that extruding prices are going to go up because the tariff changed or um you know and these are already sitting in a port somewhere or whatever it is. Um, we've done a little bit of that, but that's not a guaranteed um, strategy, right? We don't we don't know what changes in the environment are coming.

Mike, I did not look at what you posted in the share drive. I'll look at it later, but Well, I didn't tell anybody that I posted it, so it's not your fault. Yeah. No, that's that's good. Great though that you did that. What did you find was the average number of small bags or large bags being used? Let me pull that up real quick. Um because

Okay. So, um share screen real quick. Bump you off, Evan. Yep. Let me let me uh stop and then you can uh allow.

Okay. Um, so the let's see here, gallons per household per month. This assumes that the trash distribution is um equal among all houses. We're looking at 146 gallons, which is like four large or 11 small. So far for large and what is the that's that's per month. Per month. Okay.

Yeah. So if we want it per week it'd be uh yeah we can we can back that. Yeah. So great. Thank you. All right. So knowing that that data set exists that's fantastic. Um, I I'm more than happy to back in some of the financials that I've been working on and tie them more directly to that we get even finite look at what the are for for residents. Um, yeah, I did not know like what our what our tippage fee is. Yep.

Per ton. Um, if we have that then we can kind of come at it from both sides instead of guessing. Um, right. But yeah, the model that you have is I think more useful mine is Yeah, carry on.

No, I that fantastic data. Um, okay. So, this is again, um, well, we already went over this page. This is this is what what it would look like. Um I I talked to a lot of folks that um seem to and again Mike's got more finite data um albeit maybe um equalized across the community as opposed to some people using very little and some using a lot. Yeah.

Um and so we'll have to kind of take into account that. It's good to be able to then find the mean um of that set because um that becomes important when we weigh it against the uh automated type of type of system. Um okay, so we we have an idea here. We'll move over to to automated. Um so you'll see our current contract. Um and I want to be specific here. This is just um dealing with the labor side of it. This is not our tipping fee side of it. Because as we look to get any kind of um incentive out of going automated, it's really only going to apply to the part of the contract that is um driven by labor and their operational costs as opposed to our tipping fees because our tipping wouldn't change. The amount of the tonnage isn't going to change. the the labor impact is what is going to change. So, um other communities have seen around a 10% um bonus, let's say, or reduction um by going to an automated system. So, that's a system with a with uh carts that the the drivers don't have to get out of the trucks for most of their stops. As you can see, um, our current contract, the labor costs, uh, start at 795,000. Uh, by fiscal 29, which is the end of our contract, will be at $84,000. So, for roughly a um $50,000 increase over over 3 years, um if we were to assume that we would have a 10% reduction, um instead of 795, we're starting off at 716

and we're ending up at 759, which is not an insignificant amount of savings. Um, but I want to come back to this in a little bit with some concerns I have about whether these numbers would actually play out to be true. All right. Um, so again, the total increase 27 to 29 is $48,456. Um, if we were to assume a 10% reduction, um, that's a savings um, of about $84,000 over the three years. Um, oh, that shouldn't be a that negative. There's a negative here in front of 110. That should not be there. Um, so I will I will fix that. But if we also assume that we have a $65,000 increase in operational costs every year and you weigh that against your $84,000 savings, um, we wind up with a uh total addition uh of $110,000. Okay. Okay. So, now the toters themselves, the toters themselves range between 65 and $75 a piece. Um, there are some ancillary costs that kind of go along with these that I'll I'll go into in a minute. Um, but for the purposes of uh calculation later on here in this presentation, I'm using the $75 mark because it would be better to be on the the the bad side uh when we're doing our our guest work here or our estimate work. Um, and this assumes that we had gone with a system that has two toers, right? one 64gallon um approximate 65gallon

um and one say 94 gallon. So those are the common ones that have been um implemented uh say in the last 5 years according to uh my my conversations with the folks at Harvey. Um towns do as we've discussed they do anywhere from 35 to um some some towns actually have 105gallon trash toers. Um but those are generally not communities that are either implementing uh an overflow bag or um some other means to get rid of uh waste. Um so all told if we we again we have our 5,62 households um times $75 that's $759,000 for for the toters. Okay. Um uh actually before I do this, let me just a couple things on toers from the conversations I've had with the folks at at Harvey. So there's there's two methods in which to do that. One is the community gets the toters uh and distributes them and runs the program. Um I don't see that as feasible for the town of Grafton. I don't think we have the staff to do that. Um, and that doesn't it just doesn't seem likely that that that's the way we would go. We would go with a program where um we pay money for the initial cost of the toers and then Harvey or whatever vendor we have manages the program. So they are the ones that talk to the residents when a barrel gets damaged, gets hit by a car, gets stolen, um any of those things. uh and they deal directly with the vendor um on replacement, right? That um that does add some ancillary cost back into your um your contract. Um but it was unclear

what exactly that winds up being because that's a little bit nuanced into negotiation as far as how you negotiate your contract. Um, that is why I had kind of prefaced my 10% hold back uh on the previous slide with saying I'm not sure that that's a reality. Um, you might get your 10% reduction um on your labor costs, but I think you're going to find that um we wind up paying for it somewhere else either in this total price or um or something else. And we'll we'll talk about that a little too. All right. So, if we if we use a program cost with our 10% discount, uh we'd be looking at one one point uh 1,26,000, let's say. Um if you were to add the cost of the toters into that year 1, it's 1,965,000. Now, why that's important is there's two ways that towns seem to to do this. one is that they use their free cash to buy the toters as a one-time expense to set up the the um program. Um and some put it directly into the trash rate uh year one. And so the those seem to be the two different ways to do it. So um again, if we were able to get the contract and the contract was 1.2 2 million. Total cost per household is 238. Uh which is pretty close to the um one large bag a week projection that we just saw on the on the page you throw. um if we weren't to get see a 10% reduction, which I I even though that's what we're told would would be seen for the efficiency, as a town administrator, I don't feel

confident that that's what we would actually see when it came time to settle into a contract. So, that cost is $293 annually. Um, and the cost per household for year 1 if you put the toters into the rate, uh, is about $388 year one. And then obviously you would back down to to, um, the sub the the the lower rate in the following years. Uh, and that is what I have there. Yeah, Mike. Uh, I just have a couple of questions here. Sure. Um, one,

love the love the slideshow. The little the little graphics are super cute. Uh the Grafton trash bag. Uh delightful. Um so this is for two toers per household. Correct. So what that is usually it's one one trash container and one recycle container. Um, but let me dive into that a little bit if I kind of guess where your question is going is so like in my household, I have one trash can and I use two recycle bins because I recycle a lot more than I do uh trash.

Um, and so what happened uh say in the program that I'm in is you were given as part of your your fee, your annual fee, the two totes. Uh if you wanted another tote that was a recyclable tote, you would call and you would have to pay for that separately. Yeah. Um on your own. Um I I don't know that that's the best way for that to go, but that's that was my experience and that's what we did. Um and you you're not able to buy in the program I'm in another trash bin, only an extra recycle bin.

Okay. um which you know is is got pros and cons. I I like it. We recycle. We're our recycles are full every single you know two week stretch. But but if we only had one bin to make it two weeks that would be that would be impossible. So would be a get on starter. Yeah. And that's that's something that I think we would have to discuss is if starting with two toers is the way to go or is it actually a threetoer program. Um, which again, uh, the the the only concern I have with that is, you know, we've talked about this before, you know, senior citizen Mrs. Smith, right,

who lives by herself who barely fills a, you know, a trash bag every two weeks, she doesn't need that second bin, and it's a $75 charge to her for something she's never going to use. Um, definitely.

So, it it's something to con consider, I think, as we talk about it. Um, and the the knowing that, you know, going to a fully automated system gives us sometimes up to a 10% discount, whether that realizes in negotiations with Harvey to be determined. Um, but that 10% discount that other communities are seeing. Is this a 100% locked in to only system or is this mostly toers with overflow capacity? Sort of a mixed Right. That's a good bag. So it is um the the communities that would see a 10% uh you know say bonus in their negotiation process um they are automated only and so

okay so no no no overflow bags and so what that looks like is that um it's actually the situation that um I'm dealing with uh right now is you know we we uh we were chatting before this meeting we hosted Christmas this year we had 20 people at our house I have seven trash bags from Christmas in my garage and I'm chipping away at that pile because there's no way uh in our current program to account for that additional uh you know uh creation of of trash for these one-time event type things. Um right

and so that that is that is a concern. Um, and we're using 64gallon trash barrels, which I on a regular week with a household of four, we're two/ird full. Um, but then, you know, you start to you start hosting uh or doing anything, then you got to, you know, you got a backlog and you got to deal with that, which you got to wheel a deal with your neighbors to see who has space. Yeah. See who has more. Okay. So, the 10% discount assumes total lock in. there's no overflow capacity, right? Um and the the intermediate of you know totar with overflow I'm guessing there's no financial incentive for that.

Uh it it's yeah minimal, right? I mean we we we we get the pleasure of buying toters and pay paying full list price, right? That's too bad. Okay.

So So that's that's about where that looks. The other the other concern I have in talking to the folks at Harvey and this is not a reflection of the folks at Harvey. This is just the thought that I had kind of creeping up is that we have um if you look at some of the other contracts we've put into the the drive um or if you've looked at anything else, we have a very competitive rate right now. And 3% increase year-over-year is is a good deal for us to have made. If we are going to change the program, that's going to necessitate that we're going to have to back out of this contract and and re reapproach this project. Yeah, inflation. Yeah, I think we're we're I I don't know that these numbers

I not even I don't know. These numbers won't hold up, I don't think, if if we go back out to bid in in 2026 as opposed to staying in the contract we have um and then, you know, dealing with wherever we are uh in the municipal sanitation environment when the contracts. Right. Right. Um those are those are kind of the the concerns I have floating around my head with the switching to a tot system.

Yeah, I I I agree completely that you know given the below market 3% per year increase that we have an option of extending to 2029. It seems a little reckless to do something that would endanger that. you know, even if we we get what three three more years of, you know, it's better than nothing.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Other thoughts on this? I can close this if we're going to uh chat. I'm happy to go back to it. Larry, Jim, you have any any immediate thoughts to looking at some of those numbers? Certainly appreciate you putting it all together, Evan. It's a really helpful presentation. Sure. Yeah. I think I think this is what we needed to see in order to um finalize some sort of a recommendation to the select board. The question I had, Evan, is the um cost on the toers.

Yes. Um it looks like it's about $750,000, right? um the slide that you showed that had two toers on it looked like it was more than that and so um that that could be a potential. Let me It looked like that was and maybe I misread that slide. I I was thinking that that was around the cost for one to per uh it should be Yeah, I have 759,000. Okay. That's what you're coming close to what you're coming up with. Okay. Okay. That was that was for two per household.

Yeah. And I I agree with Mike on the um you know, we do have a a good contract. Um and I just know that from my own experience and having gone out to bid a couple of years ago and Harvey was our contractor. We ended up going with another contractor because Harvey's price went up like 20% or something and the other contractor was quite a bit higher than what we were paying too, like 10 or 15% more. So based on what um and and we have three more years left on this contract,

correct? Yeah. So, you know, no nobody's going to like to have the cost increase, but town meeting voted to create the enterprise fund, hence the reason why we're looking at this. So, you know, I I guess, you know, our role is to make a recommendation to the select board and then for them to, you know, take it to town meeting this year, which is coming up pretty rapidly. Um, but I know for you it'll be like it'll for us it'll feel like two and a half months, but for you it'll feel like two and a half days. Um, yeah, a little bit.

I I think that and and you tell me, but I would imagine that the select board is probably looking to get a recommendation fairly soon. Yeah, I would say by the end of January is our our target.

Okay. Um, and I think that I I if if we if we stay in the model we are and the bag fees go up the way that you know something of the the realm I just showed, um, I don't think anyone on the select board should be surprised at that because we we talked about the fact that if you're only funding 50% of the program and you're going to pick up the rest of it with bag fees, that's essentially doubling the fee. That's that's how that works. That's you have 50%. So I don't think that would be surprising to them. Um I I think they're wellversed that this is coming.

Yeah. And and I think the cushion you built in is a reasonable cushion. It's like 10%. Yes. Roughly. given some of the unknowns here because I I honestly believe when the um bag fees increase that recycling will increase.

The people who are not recycling um very effectively will say, "Wow, this is really costing a lot more. How do we reduce our cost?" The answer is recycle more. And so those that are not recycling very much, like I I know one of my neighbors doesn't recycle at all. His recycling bin has been laying on its side in front of his house for maybe eight or nine 10 years. And so I know he hasn't put one piece of recycling in there and he doesn't recycle anything. Yeah. I didn't think that was going to be years, Jim. That's why I chuckled. I thought I thought we were going to go in months on that. That's a long time. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Um,

and so, uh, you know, I I guess I'm inclined to, um, fall along the lines of staying with the program that we have right now, the the, um, pay throw bags. um just because I think there the additional cost of the toers and the administrative cost of billing and collecting is going to be an additional administration um process for the town and I don't think that it saves us that much money. Um, it I I was just doing some quick math and it came up to like 19,000 a year because you've got the addition or the savings, but then you've if you take out the additional cost that you showed between the two years, it looks like the savings is around 84,000 or something like that,

but we're going to have 65,000 in additional cost, right? And so you're really only saving about 19,000 plus you're taking on the expense of buying the toters. And so I I think it actually ends up being a more expensive program to go fully automated. And there's no, as you said, there's no guarantee that we're going to see a 10% discount. We might even see an increase in the cost if we are making a wholesale change in the program. We have to put it back out to bid. It may come in higher than what we're paying under the current contract, not a savings. And so I think there's a lot of risk

and some additional costs there that um really um leads me to say that it looks to me that the best course of action is to recommend going with um pay as you throw bags and just increasing the fee and explaining to town meeting this is what the fee would need to be in order to do what town meeting voted last year to create this enterprise fund. Yeah, Jim, I I agree completely that, you know, any any thoughts to consider possibly a toer would require that labor goes up a lot. Um, and that this is something that we would think about when we're coming closer to the end of our 2029 contract with Harvey.

Yeah. Yeah. could that that's what else I was thinking Mike along the same lines is that you know going with toters is something that could be considered when the town puts it back out to bid in 2029. Yeah. If if at all. Yeah.

Um well Evan I I personally I really appreciate that all the time that you put into this because I'm the one who is like no we should we should really think about the people who are having to lift these trash bags that aren't in buckets stuff like that. But um yeah, it just doesn't doesn't make financial sense I think for us. Um some some quick questions regarding just the general so for a enterprise fund is there a general best practice for how much surplus to include? Like my my inclination is to say more like have have the bag fees be a little higher and change them less often and operate with a little bit of a larger surplus. But I also have a combined zero years of experience in town administration compared to the 50 or so sitting in this meeting. Um, what do you guys think best practices for how much keeping an enterprise fund is just wiggle room?

Yeah, it you know I've seen I've seen it a lot of different ways. um what you're what you said um when it and and I think most of us are experienced are dealing with water and sewer um enterprise funds more than sanitation enterprise funds and um people don't like seeing those rates increase either. So, right, if you're able to um

both, you know, manage funds, manage the department so you don't fully expend your budget and you have a um a rate that brings in maybe a little bit more than uh in revenues than what you were anticipating for expenditures and you build a cushion, then that gives you an opportunity to appropriate out of that cushion to um maintain rates over a longer period of time so you don't have to change them as often. That's that's what I'm thinking. And also like let's say, god forbid, you know, Eel Harvey evaporates as a going concern overnight. We we would need to bring in somebody quickly to deal with the the right now and then evaluate as a town. You know, what do we do long term? Um,

right. And that that's never cheap. Yeah, my my kind of approach and and thinking um is that you know uh we do want to build a cushion into our enterprise fund. You never want to be uh you know in in deficit. Um but I I really having come from a you know I did seven years in the community that had an enterprise uh sanitation fund and I really tried not to be over 10% of the program cost at any at any juncture. um not because I wouldn't have liked to have a bigger cushion but because I you know fundamentally you don't want to be charging folks uh you know more than more than we need to to

yeah so that that's why I kind of settled my number is actually a little south of of 10% but it felt like a reasonable um a reasonable assumption of what we're going to lose without being uh you know it 20% seemed like an outrageous amount of money. Yeah, that seems that seems

and I think the the other thing to keep in mind is that year two um now we're in our second year of having the bag fee price increase. Now we're not going to see that run on bags at a lower price. We're going to see it um you know stabilize and you know then we can we can adjust from from there. But I agree to to set the rate in a way that hopefully we don't manipulate the bag price

every year or every two years. It would be nice to have some stability for for folks like the like the sewer department has. The sewer department's a little different, but they've they've done rate setting that is a 10 year stable number. Wow. Project 10 years, which I I find very interesting. Um but and it seems to work here. So that's Yeah. Okay. So, but but thank you for the sharing. Uh it's about 10%. Jim, do you have any thoughts? Yeah, I was just going to say the um uh the government finance officers association recommends that you maintain about a 2 to threemonth operating um expense as a fund balance in an enterprise fund. Okay, thank you.

Did you look at GFOA? Yeah, we're here. Awesome. I thought GFOA has a recommendation on

I I was thinking the same thing. I just didn't know what it was top of mind and but that's great. That is great. Okay. So, um let me ask you a question, Evan. Um do you think it makes sense for us to wait until the next meeting so we have a full committee in order to make a recommendation? That way we can all sort of absorb what um we talked about tonight and then make a recommendation. I I I do and not to just to let me jump in one sec, Jim. I also would like um you know, as we approach the next meeting, I can use some of Mike's data um that he generously put together to kind of hone in a little bit on um you know, exactly what that recommendation would need to look like dollar-wise. So, um, when we have our next meeting, uh, it's very likely that I will be in a very, very different time zone because I'll be in Asia for about a month. And so, um, if we if if we have a meeting at 7 p.m., I think it's 7 a.m. tomorrow there. And so, um, I'll be about a 12-h hour difference, but I will do my best to attend that meeting. Um, but in case I can't make it, I'll reiterate. I think um, our best position right now is to maintain the program we have now and increase the bag fee.

But I will I will do my very best, but I'm going to be on a bike for 10 days riding from Hanoi down to Saigon. Oh, wow. So, I may I I don't know what time in the morning we're going to be leaving every day. So, um, 10 days of being a tourist and 10 days of pedaling a bike. So, have a great safe trip. Yeah, that sounds awesome. Yeah, I've been to Vietnam before. It's a beautiful country. And so, Vietnam is awesome. Thailand is great. Yeah. Yeah, I've been to Cambodia. I've only been in Bangkok, Thailand. And that was just for a very short period between the two airports there.

Got it. Very nice. Yeah, have have fun. Um, you know, we we do appreciate having you here. Um, do what you can, but um I hope you get to eat some delicious food while you're out there. Um, bank on it. So, um, do we want to are we thinking two weeks? Is that the the kind of flavor? Um, that still puts us well inside kind of what I think the board is anticipating. um and gives time to do some other things and then come back to this and and use some of Mike's data.

I think two weeks is good. I think unlike school committee or uh select board or finance committee, I think we don't need to make another series of every week meetings for you, Evan. Okay. Um it's this Yeah, it's uh it's jam-packed for the next uh month or two here. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, but I I think 14 days, so if we went to January 14th, I think that's very reasonable. Um, and 21st, you know, I you know, don't worry. I'm just in charge of the budget. It's not a big deal. Your your mind is is on greater things. It's fine.

The 20 the 21st. Yes. Thank you. Um, no, I think that's that's a reasonable uh point. And Marie will be back. Hopefully Jim is able to join us. And if you can't, we've got a good understanding of where you're at. Um, and we can have some finite numbers and make a final decision. Great. All right. Excellent. Great. All right. At this point, then we move to ajourn. So, second or whatever. Yeah. So, move. Second. Good. Yeah. Thanks, everyone. Okay.