Finance Committee - Regular Meeting

this time around, but uh in part it's because I'm your HR director and assistant superintendent and I am not a good HR director with a [laughter] organization of over 550 people. That's not great. Like if I could go back in time, we'd probably have gone a different direction. Um, so those three always come out. A new curveball this year is let's pay people less. And we'll not only pay them a lot less, let's pay them less forever. And that will fix it. I'm happy to speak to that. Um, in the world of bad ideas, that one really stands out as exceptionally bad in my mind. And I can speak to that. I think the real question at hand should be and it's a hard question don't get me wrong do we take that path of investment and with that have a successful override and have to increase taxes I fully understand that's not easy for everybody if the answer to the question at hand is no I think my job is to make it clear what that impact will be on the schools and on the town and the fact that it's not reversible That's a fact. It needs to be clearly stated by me if not many other people. In a little bit, I'm going to talk more about this. But there is without a doubt a real cost associated with both options. Like on the surface level, I think people say, "Oh, can increase taxes. That's a cost." Or vote no and not have a cost. I can assure you there's a cost for both options. So for the FY27 level service budget, uh we have four main cost drivers. Two that jump out, not big surprises, are uh out of district tuitions going up by $1.2 million. About half of that, about 600,000, a little more um is due to moveins. We've had five students move into the district since July 1st. They

moved in as out of district placements, and we incur that cost. those students are getting exactly what they need. It's nobody's at fault, but financially we own that. Um the other half, this gets a little confusing, but in FY for FY26, we made reductions and we spent out circuit breaker. So what we had in reserves, the rule of thumb across the state is you want to have one year of circuit breaker in reserves. For us, that's 1.5 million. So we because we had to we spent that out last year. We don't have any reserves left. But in spending it out last year we spent about 700,000 for ex more than we normally would for out of district tuitions. With that reserve gone that 700,000 falls to the operational budget. So 600,000 in new out of district and a little over 600,000 was obviously we can't spend out reserves two years in a row. Um

so Jay was the was the 700 the increase last year. Is that what you're saying? No, we we used savings to cover it last year. We can't cover it this year. Right. But the the 700,000 that we had to use savings for oh was an increase was the increase from the prior year. Yep. That's right.

Um on the bottom two lesser increases transportation we we have that includes special education. That's a somewhat modest increase. And the only position we're adding or hoping to add back for the coming FY27 year is that HR director position. Salaries is our biggest cost driver. That's always going to be our biggest cost driver. That goes for every school district in Massachusetts. Um we are over 80% people. That's not shouldn't be a real shocker. Um that's our our biggest cost driver. At last Friday's select board meeting, you may have heard uh it brought up research was brought up around teacher retention and and happiness, if you will. And it was mentioned that among the factors researched teacher pay is low relatively the word was low on the list. Um I looked at that research and that's absolutely true when you're talking apples to apples and competitive wage has already been met. For example, a teacher may be in Westboro uh looking at a job in Northboro where they're very competitive pay regionally and even statewide. [snorts] They could look and see that the pay is pretty close. What could decide it? Real factors are going to be teacher autonomy, leadership, school culture, working conditions. Makes sense. None of that counts if you don't pay a competitive wage.

We don't mind interrupting you one second. Greg does have his hand up. Oh, sorry. No, it's fine. Yeah, I was just back on the previous slide, I noticed that the increase in out of district tuition is almost exactly what our budget deficit is this year.

So, if we didn't have that increase, then our almost $2 million in salary increase would be with be staying within our means because that is uh that would mean we'd have a balanced budget without those tuition increases. Yes, very good point. Thanks, Greg. So, going back to this slide, looking at that research, key factor left out of the discussion is a competitive wage. We don't currently, despite our best efforts, pay a particularly competitive wage. This is where our teachers sit in comparison to abudding districts and area districts. The red column that represents the state average. The only district that we beat is Oxford and Oxford is well known to not pay well uh despite their best interests or best efforts as well. Um we have fought tooth and nail and will continue to try to pay our teachers a competitive wage. I can speak at length about this. It impacts us almost daily. It feels like in terms of hiring and trying to retain staff. These, just so you know, I didn't cherrypick any of this. Um, I started with the the districts on the left. Those are all districts that physically abut Grafton. I got a complaint that it's too small of a sample. So, I used the comparison communities from that the Grafton sustainabil sustainability commission used back in 2020. Um, so I think it's a very more than fair uh comparison.

Real real quick, Mark now has his hands.

Hey J, I'm I'm sorry to interrupt you putting on your HR hat because you're as you said, you're really good at that. What's the what's the what's the turnover? What what's our uh retention rate? How often are we replacing teachers? Um thankfully it's not like throughout the school year. We we do lose paras throughout the school year. Um understandably we we did increase our paraprofessional um which are they're key members of our our staff. Uh last year we worked hard. They were making 17 uh uh starting at 17 an hour. We were able to move that range from 22 to 26. Westboro and Shrewsbury, their top step is $10 more per hour, not day. Uh so when something opens up, understandably there's there's movement in that sense. Uh I'm certainly concerned about this spring. Uh every five years I get more worried because understandably before April 7th, we will speak to everyone who's on that reduction list. They're all excellent. they're all understandably going to go and look for positions. Part of our responsibility is to support them looking. Um, and then we don't have a resolution until late May and by that time the the bulk of the the initial wave of hiring is already completed. Um, so it's it's a challenge every five years without a doubt. So, so, so a followup to that is so April 7th you have to notify them because you got to the contractual whatever you have to do and then a bunch of teachers get other jobs and they leave and then the override passes.

You're behind the eightball to hire in time for the fall, right? Yep. No question about it. And one of the the things, Mark, that does help us retain staff and we've got an excellent staff is the fact that currently we have good class sizes. We have excellent principles. So, we're able the results we're getting are indicative and reflective of a of a strong school system. Like despite our we have a really good system. You take

you kind of toss it out the window. We don't have economy of scale. I'll I'll talk a little bit about class sizes. They go up significantly. Of course, people are going to look we have fewer programming, fewer supports. That's just how it works. Um, we hire, who we do hire is very often from districts that are dysfunctional in the area.

So, so one one one last uh one last question. What's the what's the morale like with the with the teaching staff right now when they hear town leaders expressing that they're overpaid and we have to cut and we have to be harder in negotiations and we have to do all this this other stuff. What's what's the reaction from the from the from the school teachers union and the and the and the staff in general if I may ask? Yeah, I know you're not because that concerns because Jay, it concerns me. Um, you did a great job negotiating the last contract. 9% over three years is outstanding. I sent you information that showed how well you did compared to other districts in the state. And so I'm I'm just curious what the what the reaction is.

I I certainly can't speak for them. I have talked to leaders of the teachers association since that meeting. Um I've put out a survey to teachers basically putting those research findings before them to see if what I just told you as a committee is accurate and I [snorts] am going to guess that it is very accurate that uh teacher pay given where we stand is incredibly important. Um, so yeah, I think Friday did not uh boost morale. I think that's safe to say. Thanks, James. Sorry to interrupt you.

No, it's great. So, back to FY27 level service. I want to be clear that this is level service based on FY26. FY26 is our not our mo most healthy uh financial year we've ever had. We are not filling requested positions for FY27. So that would be six and a half positions that were requested to strengthen what we do currently. We're not bringing back any of the reductions that were made going into FY26 totaling about $610,000. That was $162,000 in non-personnel and 6 and a half FTE. Um is we're not bringing back five and a half FTE in terms of personnel reductions. I am requesting or hoping that that HR director position will come to fruition. The money is set aside. It's within the FY27 budget. It's not going to shock me if we don't have needs that come up, especially special education needs between now and July 1st that we're just going to have to prioritize over the HR position. But I've got my fingers crossed. So [snorts] that level service budget, just to be clear, does not include adding reduced positions back, doesn't replenish our saving, does not add any of the requested positions. And basically, we're going to certainly always try to be better, but there's nothing in the FY27 budget that's set aside to make us better, if you will. Nothing new.

May I ask a question? Fire. So [clears throat] 6 and 1/2 that was request for 27 and then 6 and 1/2 that was reduced. So in an ideal world for us to be operating where we would like to be we should be at the 13 the net 13 correct say from 25 till now. Right. Yep. Okay. Correct. Despite all I feel like I'm being a little too negative, but despite all that with the level service budget, I 100% believe that we as a district can maintain the exceptional return on investment and keep moving forward as we we are. I I'm sorry I can't I call on you [laughter] through you. Can I call Yeah, please.

Yeah. So, I guess it it really sounds to me like this is not really a level services budget. like we we cut things last year and now so what was considered level services last year we cut from that and now we're saying well this is like the new level services and [snorts] but we're also not including those other six and a half right

so it it really I feel like it needs to be emphasized that this is not actually level services. It's we're reducing things and and we're going to work really hard to to try to, you know, achieve the same results, but it's with cuts from last year and with, you know, not not strictly cuts if they're requested, but it's it's not the things that that our superintendent, the expert on uh what our school district needs, uh says that we need. So, To me, it it feels like it's um calling this level services really kind of stretch. Yeah. Well, it it's it

stretch. You got to have a level somewhere and to try and talk about the prior year say, "Okay, we're coming out with a suble service, right? It's doesn't roll off the tongue." No, I'm finding that true. But but it's a it is a fair point, right? Every little bit of attrition you make, it feels like the new normal, but those it's it's a death by a thousand cuts. At some point, you stop being able to provide exceptional value and provide exceptional service when you continue. This is the leanest we'll

Well, this is that was this year is like if we continue on this path, you know, you used 700,000 in savings last year, made a bunch of cuts like Yeah. Um, Mark, please.

Yeah, I I was just going to say, Dan, Dan, I agree with you a billion%. Um, I'm the one that that made that statement when we had that joint meeting with the select board last week that we needed to start somewhere and we needed to set a level to to build on the override. And unfortunately, we had a start at FY26. And you're right, 100%. And I'd love to put those six and a half positions back into the budget and make 25 the base year. But we needed to get the support to get the override on the ballot. And the only way that was going to happen is if we if we set a base level and unfortunately we had to use FY26 as that base to move forward. But I I agree with everything Dan said because he's right. 25 should have been the base year, but there was no way the select board was going to step take a step back on that. So, we really needed to to set a new level and unfortunately um we had to set 26 as that level. At least that was my opinion last week when we did this.

Yeah. And and I I understand that. And then and I I agree that you know it's that clearly was needed because then from that 26 level the override number that the select board went with was then reduced from that point even. Right. So it's like we're [snorts] we're really not talking about level services anymore. Like for like there's multiple points at which it's been reduced from that. [clears throat] So maybe level service in year one, but to your point moving forward, [snorts] it's going to be harder and harder,

right? Down 700,000 over the projection. And we already know from last night that we should anticipate increased uncontrollable prices coming from BBT. So anyway, it's a good point. Sorry, Dr. Cummings.

That's great. All right. Um, so we've gone over in a broad brush level service budget. We'll now talk about the reduction budget. Um, um, obviously we present we'll finalize it and present the reduction budget to school committee on April 7th. Um, in the days leading up to that, obviously we're going to have personal discussions with the people that are impacted. Uh so this is a very broadbrush overview um of the [snorts] reduction plan. So as it stands now, we anticipate needing to reduce what we just talked [clears throat] about by $1 million4,000. At the secondary level, we're going to impact world language, music, electives, counseling, and class sizes. Um at the elementary level, band and chorus will be impacted in class sizes. At the elementary level, we don't have many options, unfortunately. Um, almost everything that we currently do is required or core. Um, not that we have extras at secondary, but we have electives. We have things outside of what's required districtwide. I anticipate us impacting technology, our dwindling curriculum team and athletics. Uh so fairly widespread and that's year one. Um year two will be class sizes. What I've worked very hard to do and consistently have with reductions is you want to and this isn't really unique to Grafton guys. this. You can look at Northbridge. Anybody that's gone from functional to dysfunctional, this is how it plays out. Year two is more you have to hit lower elementary. Um, I'm going to do our very best preK through three

to maintain the class sizes we have, supports, etc. Um, but you can't avoid it in year two. You just can't. In terms of the future, if we go down, if the choice is made and we're going to go down this road, um I've talked about the what's going to come up in terms of financial impact. That's going to be school choice revenue decreases. I'll talk a little bit more about that momentarily. And outof district costs with fewer supports, larger class sizes undoubtedly is going to rise. About 1% of our students go out of district. That number will undoubtedly go up. Uh, and those costs are significant. I just talked about it, but then class sizes increase um, preK to two, right? The way it stands with the plan today, I'm going to try our very best to prek through three protect as much as we can, but uh, class sizes will go up in four and above. Um, this was something I put together today, so it's still it's super super rough, but it was just the idea going back to the cost. Well, that original slide I had about the cost either way, like vote to have an override, your taxes go up, but not having an override and having that play out has a real cost. So, just out of curiosity, I was playing with this and thought you might think it find it interesting. So on the left hand side, if we have an override and let's say well if it's the five years 5 million, let's say it's a million a year townwide and we get we being the schools are going to get 700,000 of that. I'm just making that number up. Uh if that's the case over those five years on the school side, we'd bring in 3,500. If we become dysfunctional and have large class sizes, we don't have the supports, we don't have music

programming, we don't have any of that for numerous years. I pretended it's not going to have an impact next year on school choice. I can guarantee you school choice goes away. there. There might be a couple that just hang on, but that parent who's going from whatever town they are in the area that's dysfunctional, waking up extra early to go and drop your student off at our school so that they can join that class of 30 with no supports, it d it doesn't work. So they don't go and we're instead of having only 60 kids in Grafton go to other schools through school choice. That number goes up. So that revenue goes away. That 900,000 a year that we bring in through school choice will undoubtedly go away. There's then what? I can tell you what happens. That's going to fall on the operational budget and the taxpayers. And that's just school choice. You add that up over just four years, that's 30 3,600,000. So that cost isn't just home values. It isn't perception of the town. There's going to be, and I'll have time to work through this, but going back to those two trends, the out of district, I'd have to guess, and I can provide an array of guesses. is I could look at the numbers in North Bridge and how that played out, but we will end up I'm 100% sure and over the next few weeks I'll work on quantifying that. But the cost of not having an override will be greater to the town than maintaining what we do right now. I have zero doubt about that. To see this how it plays out, you don't have to look far. You can look to to North Bridge. back in 2006, they were

faced with very much the same scenario. Um, and the override, their override failed. They haven't had a successful one since. So, in those 20 years, they have struggled with this. Um, they used to be a top district in central Massachusetts. Um, and not that they still don't have fantastic staff, their superintendent's great, like great people doing great work, but they are struggling mightily in this cycle that I've been talking about to you probably countless times. It's very expensive to run a dysfunctional district. People think it isn't, but for the very reasons I outlined, when you look at apples to apples per pupil, if we had North Bridges per pupil, we would get a check for $2,700,000 a year. It's that's a lot of money, guys. It's expensive to be dysfunctional. Um so just last slide for us the real question before us which cost does the taxpayer prefer I I see a yes vote is the tax make taxpayers making a it's it's hard to taxation I'm a taxpayer in town I don't love taxes but without a doubt a yes vote is an increase in cost um and without a doubt and we've pretty good at stretching overrides, but whether it's five years, six years, whatever it is, unless something changes systematically in the state, I assume like openly that we're going to have to continue some level of investment. And if no, as I've been speaking to, the costs associated with maintaining a dysfunctional school district are greater and will in the end require more funding. I am 100% sure of that. I'll get off my soap box and take any questions you may have.

Can you just speak to that a little bit as far as like why because if if we lose school choice obviously then then we have to make that up somehow. But basically what happens when you become dysfunctional? Yep. Can you just speak to that? Well, school choice is just a one example that we bring in I think people know that we have school choice and think maybe it's a good thing. That's $900,000 that we bring in to offset taxation. That's a great thing. When that goes away, and you said, and I'm not like turning this on you, like you got to find it somewhere.

That's in the operational budget. There are no more rabbits in the hat that I have. Um, that's a pretty big rabbit that goes away. Not only does the 900,000 go away, once you become dysfunctional in preK through 12, we've got class sizes at, you know, tw 27 to 30, we're going to have kids school choicing out of Grafton in far greater numbers than we have. And that money comes right off the top out of chapter 70. We don't even see that. So, the impact is going to be greater than the 900,000. No doubt about it. Once you have class sizes of 27 to 30 and you have to start reducing staff more, we've got really good supports and programs to make to keep kids in our district and we're super proud of that. That's great. Once that gets threatened, those students get placed out of district because their needs can't be met in district. The students that we had moving in over every one of them was over 200,000 just in tuition for out of district. That's one student and that's without transportation which is typically individualized or small group. It's very expensive. So you're talking per kid let's say con conservatively 250,000. we increase by 10 kids out of district would be more the the area norm do the math and that's two and a half million um and it just keeps keeps going and then what districts will do is like North Bridge had an override I think last year an attempt it failed um it's not to catch up because the cost would be astronomical they just are trying to limit the the bleeding, if you will. Um Franklin put a like an emergency that

fails and they put an emergency one. But again, it's not to get them back to any semblance of what they were. Once you lose it, it's gone. And I and they weren't in I guess I had too many slides. They weren't in this position. like we don't have any margin left where some districts can take a take a hit and they've got layers of supports, they've got layers of curriculum people and that's great. I wish we did. Uh specialists like extras that we consider extras because and we would love to have those positions. We just don't have them. But you would cut that layers and layers of administration. We obviously don't have those. Um [clears throat] we're just so lean that cutting further, we're so close to the cliff year in year out. Um very there are only what 12 districts that are as close to the cliff as we are. Um even Northridge is I told you what they're spending. They're the closest to us and the difference is 2.7 million a year. Imagine if we had a check for 2.7 million a year

be here right now. And that's North Bridge and North Bridge statewide is like peanuts, right? And they have only 60% of our students correct in in just to be crystal clear that per pupil is apples to apples in terms of everything spent on education divided by the number of students. I don't know if I answered your question. I'm really so boxy today. No, you should be. So, out of per kid out of district is 250,000 per kid in district for school choice. Is it one to one? Two is it also 250 or is it I'm assuming less.

That was for special ed, right? Out of district. So, it's Yep. I want to be careful. Uh Kyle, I can find what the number is uh in terms of our average. I was using the number of 250 that that wouldn't be unusual. We have some that are far more than that and some especially collaborives that are less. It might be 100,000. So I just want to be clear on that. What tell me the second part? Um how for kids that come into the district is it is it one to one is like we if we is it 250k out and 250k in if it's the same?

Oh if we bring in a if we we tuition in a student um it depends on what the program is. uh more expensive for uh intensive medical needs where we might have a a nurse. Sometimes the sending district will pay for that nurse and the tuition say a h 100,000. Um generally I' I'd say the average for that is probably a h 100,000 in total. So I I guess as I'm thinking through I mean this year is this year where we're at where we're at but if we're thinking about the future and us making an investment in ROI I mean are there things we could be adding to the district that would be bringing in kids from other schools that it almost I won't say offset one to one but you know can we make the district more attractive where

you know the additional investment could be off I mean obviously offsetting potential losses later but also we're bringing in more I know we are deal with the uh medical program, the critically medical fragile. Yes. Um are there other things we could be doing if we had more investment? And this maybe this isn't a thing to answer today, but I think that's like

Yeah, it's not a bad question. We we'd have something probably um I remember Nicole McDonald, our special ed director, more programming around social emotional um challenges at the elementary level. If we go down the reduction road, I'm not saying it's going to be right, you know, instantly we lose those out of district students, but it that's it's going to be that will be a challenge maintaining those. That's just part of the the cycle.

Um, we're doing great with them. A lot of it is like we can't I don't know how to somebody mentioned like going to get kids. It doesn't really work like that. I'm not you're not saying that. But it's it's more through like Nicole McDonald's connections and going to maybe collaborative meetings where a local collaborative they're full. We're close. It just they don't have it. like they're dysfunctional and they don't have the programming and they'd rather send somebody, you know, a town or two over

as opposed to going to a um a specialized school that might be an hour and 10 minutes each way. Yeah. So, it's more like people aren't recruiting grafting kids. And I want to be clear, I'm not out there, you know, with a sign come to come to Grafton. But if you build it, they'll typically come and we've got to capitalize on economy of scale. Y um there some of our programs are at capacity and we just can't take any anybody in. So it's been a nice plus um this year for sure. Yeah, I think that's kind of where my mind is is like if there are needs that aren't being met elsewhere around if we build that they come and that's a way to Yeah.

Yeah. Eventually, my hope is to be more like it. It won't happen in my lifetime, but to get to like a Shrewsbury level. Shrewsbury, if you looked at their per pupil, I mean, they're they're below the state average, but they're ahead of where Northridge is. So, it would be like we get a check for $4 million. Um, but if you look at the whole state, they're certainly not next to the cliff. Nobody rides that cliff better than us. Um, so they're a safe distance from the cliff, but that return on investment, while ours out of desperation is awesome, that that's where you want to be where

they have I was the assistant superintendent. Granted, it was like 17 years ago, and I say it all the time, but under me, I had a good at least 15 people focused only on supporting curriculum and teachers, etc. Um, so our department around at least 17 for curriculum teaching and learning and in a school system that kind of makes some sense. Here we have two. Um we had six a couple years ago. Um and people say Shrewsbury is a lot bigger but what is the actual size difference? It's twice as big. So you maybe would have eight instead of 17. Yeah. Yeah. Well, not looking but but that idea and that's just

Yeah. No, but I'm just saying that people will say like, "Oh, but they're bigger, so we don't need that many." But like even relative to that, like we have two and we should have eight if we were in size as as we are. They're just not. But we're we're lean to a fault. We just are. Yeah.

Um and we'll not get there, but that would be a great place to be. They've got some options. They've got assistant superintendent. They they have an HR director. um they've got supports that are needed, but you could make the argument and it's a good argument that they're right on like they're they're efficient, they're strong, uh they're able to offer things that we can't offer, not just because of their size, but because of funding and and I'll I'll also add, you know, the other layer to some of the arguments that we've heard the the pay rates for for teachers as well, right? Let's definitely talk about that.

Um I'd love to. Um so why don't we just cut salaries or cut colas in the next um series of negotiations? Um for me listening to you sit here and say we're the leanest in in the area. We're approximately the leanest in the state. Nobody walks the cliff better than Grafton does. um laying out how little support in classroom or in curriculum creation or in the rest of the staff in HR that our that our teachers have. I think that that makes the argument for the amount that we pay them that much more important, right? Yes.

Because the points are correct. Pay is not the only reason why someone stays at a job. Absolutely true. I could be making twice what I make, but if my boss was abusive, I'd be out the door. Got it. Um, but the the bare bones sort of structure and infrastructure that that our teachers are sort of faced with at this moment, it's kind of on a precipice, right? I think dangling something like a really negative um uh contracts into the future could be pushing people towards that ledge. Right. I think even just

if that actually that what as long well I I don't have a vote but I will never in a million years advocate for doing away with steps and lanes. Generally in the world of teaching there's a cola that's between zero and 3% and steps and lanes which is somewhat inconsistent. Not all of our teachers get steps every year. you get to the top and you're at the top and you're dependent on the cola. In lanes, that's that's much more infrequent. That's going to be when somebody goes from a bachelor's to a master's. A master's to a doctorate or master's plus 60 credits. That's a life event. I mean, that's

Yeah, there are six lanes and it's it's definitely not every it's impossible for it to be every year. Um, but there isn't a school district I verified this in the state of Massachusetts. I don't know of one in the country, but definitely Mass that doesn't have steps and lanes and people cannot like it. But where Grafton is not in like an island state in the middle of the Pacific, it's just not. And until it becomes that, it does matter what other districts in the state of Massachusetts are doing. What I So there's a a matrix where every year until you get to your 16th year, you stop getting a step. So they get a step every year. They'd get a cola. And then I talked about the lanes. Um what's before you I took three snapshots. Um and this is those same districts, all the districts that abut us and then like that the next layer outside of that. And I took three snapshots. One was bachelor step one that brand new teacher here we are in the green u we're above Oxbridge Oxford and Auburn okay that red line is where we would be in one year of not having steps and lanes assuming that nobody moves forward which they will in two years this is just for new staff in two years we would without a doubt be the lowest paying district in the state of Massachusetts

in two years.

Yeah. Because everybody's moving forward like that's just the way it is. Um [clears throat] go crazy. Three would be I I would bet everything on two but and three dead last. Um that brand new teacher that right now in Grafton they're coming in at 54,000. um they can go to Sutton and make 63. Like I can be charming and and try that. [laughter] I'm getting old, but it it's we're just not particularly competitive. Um people and people want and like as they should those newer out of school teachers. That's great. If we were really thinking we're going to be like the minor leagues or something, we should make that off the charts and try to hold on to people, but it's it's not. So, when people retire, they think, you know, somebody's making, you know, 95,000 and we're going to hire somebody at at 54. I can't tell you the last time we've hired somebody right out of school, at least a couple years ago. Um, but it's great. That's beginning of the career. Middle career, you've got your masters, which teachers have to get our professionals. And we want to invest in the teachers we have. They're fantastic. This is masters and you've been with us for 10 years, middle of your career. We're still above barely Auburn and Oxbridge and we're above Oxford. Everybody's [snorts] above Oxford. Um, again, somebody's looking at Northboro. Um, I've got I'm not making this up. We have a a teacher from the secondary level uh last week reached out to me and they're looking at a position in Alangquin. Given all the discussion here, one of our best teachers

um and can make 15,000 more every year. It's not just a one-time deal. They're making it the next year. And guess what? In Alangquin, they get steps and lanes. [sighs]

Yes. I I really feel like this is a point that um I wish the select board would would consider that like if we're not paying competitively that best teacher is the one who's going to leave. And it's like as as a parent and as a taxpayer who who wants this town to continue to succeed, I want teachers who are being paid competitively. I don't want to have the teachers who are willing to accept the lowest pay in the state.

That's me, too. That's not what I want. I want to pay the money to have decent teachers. And I I would say that the scenario it's either that or it's just rampant instability, right? It's it's folks that are moving to the area uh last minute who are teachers who are going to jump into an open position but leave the very next year when they've had time to settle in and find a better job. or it's a it's a first year teacher who is uh again going to leave the very next year after they have their first job out of school something like that. I mean

that that that pattern is either right it's it's unfortunately maybe not the the highest talent or it just becomes this revolving door of instability curricular instability um unfamiliar faces for your children I it it truly makes no sense.

That's when the HR director looks like those two guys. [laughter] That red line is obviously where where we'll be in a year. We'll still be above Oxford, but Oxford is well known, it's not a secret, as being the lowest. Um, so that's mid-career. We get more competitive at the very top step. So the very end of your career, you you were in the middle. We should be in the middle for all of these. again. How many teachers do we have that are in the top step? Uh I think on the actual top step two only two. Yeah. Um yeah, that's doctorate level or

uh yeah, masters plus 60 and you've been with us um 16 years. Oh, easy. Yeah. Y 16 years. And that but that's where I mean that's where we should be. I want to be clear. I didn't handpick Wley and wherever. This is it couldn't be a more real piece. Like you see Auburn gets a little more competitive. Um but in that red line without steps in lanes that's where we end up in one year.

In two years we're going to definitely be the lowest here if not lowest in the state. Um, so I want zero. Part of that I would never recommend it. Like it that that fix to me is avoiding the real hard discussion. Going with the assumption that the schools just must they're the biggest. They must be spending too much. Um, [clears throat] and we're going to put on the back of staff not just for a year. This isn't and they've taken zeros. When I first started, all of our staff took, I think, two years, definitely one year of zero cola um to get through a tough year. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about doing this indefinitely,

right? As a way to balance the budget. Oh, yeah. That makes the that's have your cake and eat it too. Just don't pay people and they just love Grafton. And it's low on the list. But it's only low on the list if you're competitive. If you put Westboro and Hollist on this chart, okay, they're they're pretty close. Maybe it's leadership, maybe it's school culture, the good boss, charming superintendent. That's not where we are. Right. Right. Also, municipal um employees get steps as well of it, Angeline. Everybody, you're not talking about us tonight.

I know. I know we're not, but I feel like like we get we get it all put on the schools and it is the biggest chunk. But we also if we don't pay our municipal employees fairly, then we are also going to lose them like we just lost Fiona. Sure. As a taxpayer, I want our police, they get a a step, they get a cola, the Quinn bill, but that's I that's I'm just speaking for myself. I want our police to feel competitively compensated. Yes, that's I consider that fundamental, but somehow that goes out the window. Sometimes it does. Well, and the other side of that though is if we were to not give the teachers

uh a decent cola, but give uh other staff in other departments decent colas. That's another issue. So then, do we want all of our town employees to end up being paid the lowest in the area? like it's yeah I I don't negative

feedback and and one thing that came up about the cola it it facts got a little twisted uh with the last round of negotiations and we had the 3 I3 uh in terms of cola and every one of these districts as I spoke to has steps and lanes every one of these districts had at least 333 and Milberry had 3.5 and they they messed with their steps and lanes fine But every single one, like it wasn't that we were doing something crazy at all. Uh I wish we were to be honest. I 100% wish we could be more competitive. Um it's great for the district that I love. It's great as a HR director. Makes my job a billion times easier. Um my quality hiring and the a the ability to retain good people, that's it's almost invaluable. It's critical.

Mark, please. Jake, to go back to your point on the top step, you have how many how many teachers? I think we have two. We We'll have a No, no, no. I'm saying how many total teachers? Oh, about 270. Two teachers. Out of 270 teachers at top step. Yeah.

That's that's an abnormality. That is not normal across across the state because I'll tell you in in in in my district I think we're at 30% or 35% of the teachers are at top step because they they want to work to get somewhere and they want to stay in the district and they're compensated well along the way. The fact that you only have two out of 270 is embarrassing in my opinion. And if anybody thinks our teachers are overpaid and our steps and lanes needs to go away, they need to they need to go away because that that's an awful statistic.

That that goes to show you that you're you're you're hiring put your human resources director hat on. You're hiring quality teachers to the fact that you you still provide a high quality education when you're not retaining teachers for a long period of time. So your hiring skills are outstanding, Jay, and we're very lucky that you were able to do that. But the fact that only two teachers are at top step out of 270, that's ridiculous. So if anybody comes out and says our teachers are overpaid, they don't know what the hell they're talking about. Well, I think that's reflected in that the average the average being after everything I just showed you um is why it's low.

81 934. But yeah, that's why we do have teachers that have been with us for many years on, you know, step 14, 15, what have you. Um and they're terrific. we should see um we we should see a a bubble of retire of teachers hitting 15 and 16 over the next few years. Um but that's a great thing that that long the if we can hire high quality people and retain those people that's that's the goal. Um and we've been doing it but it's it's uh getting more and more challenging.

Absolutely. Thanks Jay. I mean, I so I have a senior. I have a one who graduated. He's 21. I have a senior this year and I have an eighth grader. And um I I have to say that, you know, living in Grafton, we came here for the schools, you know, for the train station and for the schools and then we stayed for everything else. Um, but I think that the people who are going to suffer the most with this are people who don't have the money to send their kids to private school. You know, there's a lot of people who are just going to send their kids to private school when the when the public school goes and you know, the I mean, just the the cascading effect of the school system going down and house prices and all of the things that follow is just is mind-boggling. But just to talk about my experience, my daughter who has worked really, really hard, she definitely has, but going to Grafton has given her opportunities that if she was in a school system where it was failing, she wouldn't have had she got into Clark University. She got a huge merit scholarship that is going to allow us to be able to send her there. The reason, I mean, she worked really hard, but she also was able to take AP courses. that she was able to take, you know, get on this track and pass the AP exam, not just take the course, but actually be prepared for it from the class that she was taking. And I know that, you know, I know that last year she lost one of her favorite teachers. He went to Westboro. Like there's definitely been we're we're feeling that. we're feeling, you know, the the teacher that left who she really really liked and we know it's because of money cuz he told them it was because of

money, you know. So, like even in spite of that, like she's had a very positive experience, I think, and I just I'm grateful that people in this town have supported the schools and supported the town so far. I just hope that people understand what is happening and choose to support the town again because it isn't I you cannot look it defies logic to look at the spending relative to everybody else and say we're overspending on schools. It defies logic. like you are just putting aside that information and saying I don't believe it because how can you say we're 16 or 12th from the bottom out of 320 districts but we're overspending like how how can those two things be true at the same time? They can't be. It's not that's not reality. So that's my so

very well said and I I should have I [snorts] feel like I've been overly negative but the fact that when I talked about how well we're doing how we're able to pull it off that's entirely has been made possible because of the support of the taxpayers for the past two overrides. This everything I laid out would have happened long ago. It 100% guarantee that without that support. Right. and she wouldn't be where she is now. Like I mean in a very tangible way, people who have kids in the school district, like our our kids futures depend on the school system staying functional,

especially for the people who can't afford to send their kids to St. John's or whatever other school they want to send their kids to. So that's what's at stake.

Mark, go ahead. Well, while I'm on a roll here. Uh, thanks, Victoria. Jay, one of the things that people are failing to also understand is being in a old harmless district, the state really isn't helping matters in in in uh in Grafton as well because they're not keeping up with the cost of living. They're not keeping up with the um minimum contribution that you have to put up each year. And it's really starting to um have an effect. And the in since 2014, the town's had no choice but to um raise these taxes in order to in order to meet because the state's just not keeping up. They're putting more and more uh uh restrict not more and more restrictions, more and more requirements on you and you have to meet those requirements and they're just not they're just not helping. And and and and one last point that I I want to make is talking about negotiations when you go to next year and everybody says we need to, you know, be hardcore in the teachers and we need to get them to cut their salaries and everything else that we have to do. What would you think the impact would be if we if they go on strike? What would that do to the district? What would that do to the town? What would that do for your ability to hire teachers moving forward if if if we have to go through a through a strike like districts like Andover and Haveril and some of those Newton and some of those other districts dealt with. What do you think the impact would be for that?

So much so that we wouldn't bounce back from it. Um that coupled with the dysfunction that I laid out. Yep. What a combination. Um, yeah. I don't know how to even put it into words, Mark. It would be awful. Um, and understandable. Like, it would be we should be more we should be putting every effort that we can into being as competitive as we can, not moving in the other direction. Um, it would I would consider it a complete failure of leadership. um me included.

Yeah. I I I'll tell you, Jay, I said and I'm sorry, Victoria, if I can continue. Um I I'm just I just want to say again, the negotiations that you've had with the teachers, at least as long as I've been on the finance committee, which I think I'm ending my ninth year this year. Um I I have to tell you, you've been very good. and and and I and I said this the other day, the the the Grafton Teachers Education Association, they have worked really well with you and that goes to show that your relationship with them is very very strong. The fact that they're willing to settle on contracts that they know if they went on strike, they get more money because those other districts ended up doing that. So, the fact that they're willing to work with you and the fact that you've you've signed, I think, competitive contracts, not competitive, but but contracts that are within the market or under the market level has been outstanding. And and and I I'm going to keep saying it over and over again. You and the school committee should be commended for the contract you signed three years ago or two years ago because you're going into your third year now because it's a very good contract given what was happening throughout the state at the end of CO. you did a great job selling that contract and I'll keep saying that until I'm blew in the face.

I appreciate I may say it three or four more times tonight. Uh yeah, GTA leadership has been terrific to work with. Um we true partners with the school committee. So thank you. [snorts] Okay. Happy to answer any questions from the public. I don't see any hands online but um okay any additional thoughts or questions from the finance committee okay thank you guys very very much thank you for having us

yeah thank you for putting all that together it's really eye opening Second item on the budget or on the budget on the budget on the brain on [snorts] the agenda um is continuing to discuss any topics as they pertain to the override. I feel like that entire presentation um [laughter] was pertaining to the override, right? But I mean incredibly um kind of circling circling the square, right? where I think sort of the the last remaining questions were around the school budget and um if we felt as a committee that Jay was doing his due diligence and Kathleen they were doing their due diligence uh for next year's budget and and um I personally believe that they are

think you'd be hardressed to argue against it and people can You certainly some people well anybody that's trying to argue that is living in the past is I mean I've said this before but there's three things here. One of them

we cast this in stone 40 years ago by not going to twoacre zoning. the change in the dynamic of what's required in education and the state formulas to allegedly reimburse us and continue to take and drop stuff on us without so much as a thank you very much. That's what we're stuck with. and in order to keep having a school system that people, you know, I'm not going to sit here and say that we should be attracting all kinds of people here because it's just going to be more and more and more. But if it's going to cost us this override every 5 years to keep it the way it is and everybody wants to pay that, that's what this whole thing is about. You go to the town meeting, town meeting says yes. should go to the ballot box. The ballot box says yes and off we go.

It's more than that though. It's like if if you don't have a town where people want to live there when you try to sell your house because you are at a different stage of your life or you need to move because of a job or whatever is happening. You put your house on the market. if you are in a failing school district town or a town that's becoming dysfunctional on the um you know on the municipal side of things as well then that's going to be harder to sell your house like this is all just it all has consequences like Jay said yeah

I think the north bridge example is is so important right it costs them uh what would be the equivalent of 2.7 7 million for us more a year just to maintain sort of the the the level that they hit when they did not reach their override. Right. It is it's more expensive for that school district once they became quote unquote dysfunctional. [clears throat] Yeah. the sort of backwards waterfall plot that he showed where we would be compoundingly losing almost a million dollars a year from school choice once we hit that level of dysfunction. Right? A lot of these questions are around how do we continue to raise revenue. Uh we will never raise $900,000 a year in school fees from sports,

but we are looking down the barrel of losing $900,000 a year um by letting our our schools fall into dysfunction. And not to mention the the intangibles of not being able to educate your children and and filament community in a way that only a school can. Um it's a it's a it's a poor investment to let to let your town fall into disarray. And but there's also and there's also the reality of the you know the state putting mandates on us and then not funding them like saying we have to send more kids to BBT which is

you know I want to I I um will someday learn to stop saying things out loud before I've like really thought them through. Not sure when that will happen but eventually I'll get there. Um I wouldn't do you Angelina if you did so don't don't change. It's just brutal though. Uh when I was that my first reaction to BVT last night was, "Oh my god, that's a nightmare cuz it cuz it's going to change BVT." And then I realized, wait a second, this is what I've been complaining about

four years like literally, you know, for it to become I guess in my mind it was like keep BBT the way it is, but can we also have this? like I wanted. So when it was, you know, like I just didn't really think it through. But, you know, if we can help kids who need a technical school who wouldn't have gotten into BBT through the interview process to have a chance at doing that, I do think that it's going to be a positive overall. However, you know, I did the math and 12 extra students is a lot of money a year, you know, over the next five years to get up to what we need to get up to to be have the number of students that we're supposed to have there. So,

it's just another cost that the state is putting on us. And I I think we recognize that that's what's happening. Um, and I think that we need to be, you know, the select board or the school board needs to be petitioning the state and and getting out there and trying to change things because that is definitely a problem. Un unfunded mandates are a problem. Absolutely. and to put it back on the taxpayer is tough, but it's there isn't a choice until we can get it. It was all different, you know, until the state does something different, unfortunately.

Greg, please.

Yeah. When Proposition 2 and a half was passed back in the early 80s, 1982, the state aid to Grafton as a portion of our expenses was 32.5%. Last year it was 18.5%. If we had 32.5% of our budget received in state aid, it's an additional $12 million that we could either add to budget or return to the taxpayers. We could reduce our taxpayer budget, our taxpayers taxes by 20% with that kind of money.

That's the whole problem, Greg. That's I'm so glad you said that because that's the point I was trying to make earlier. The state isn't keeping up with inflation. They're not keeping up with even Proposition two and a half. If they just gave us two and a half% a year in chapter 78, we'd be in a better position.

Yeah. North North Bridge gets $3 million more in chapter 78 for 60% of the students. They get $4,000 per year extra last year compared to us. Again, that $4,000 per student times 3,000 students is $12 million. The state would have to increase our aid by $600 per student to cover our budget shortfall this year. That's it. The solution to teacher salaries. Yeah. Oh, thanks.

Said that last one. May I ask a question about obviously this predates me but the sustainability commission that existed years ago like very quiet I can't hear who's [clears throat] talking he's not going to ask a valid question so that's okay [laughter] answer but what happened with that commission and Angelina and I can talk about that

yeah because like obviously I think a big takeaway from this five year 5 million was somewhere mixed in there was oh we can figure out a way to fix this by year three but unfortunately that does not seem possible in any right state of the mind. what did happen with the um sustainability commission and like what can we do to like revive that because again we keep complaining they're override uh dependent but like action needs to happen now not once we're through all of this right so like what was the background what happened there if anyone could Angelina you wanted to take that one

um sure I mean I I don't think that we should revive that committee I think that the idea that was put out of having an independent committee that has nothing to do with any boards in town or anything to just look at like cold hard facts, finances, you know, is able maybe has the um the means and the resources to effectively compare things. I'm sure AI can help with the comparisons too, but like you have to be really careful um [clears throat]

as with anything. It doesn't. Okay. So, what what we ran into um was it it was like apples to, you know, umbrellas when you're trying to compare things. And, you know, going back to the Desi numbers, at least those are like everybody does it the same way. Um there was just a lot of there was a lot of difficulty in comparing um in comparing districts. I mean, we we I think we were together for about a year, maybe maybe shorter. Um, I don't know. Mark, did you want to add anything? I predicted

Yeah, I think I think the problem I think the problem that we had was there was just so much going on at the time and we were trying to do as much benchmarking as possible. We were trying to figure out who to compare grafting with. We were trying to put together all the documentation and unfortunately we we sort of ran out of time and I think that was just about the time that COVID hit. Yeah. And it really sent us and it just sort of ended us. We couldn't really do much at that point. So I don't know if we would have made a difference, but it just it fizzled out after a year because of the the problems that we had with co I'm sorry that the Bruins just scored. They're up two nothing for those of you who are wondering what that was.

Yeah. I just I feel like it just really needs to be independent of anybody in town though in order to I agree with that. I agree with you, Angelina.

You know, to have people accept the information instead of just like pushing things aside because they don't agree with their narrative. Um, and I'm fully open to please like do please somebody for the love of God put this into a format that is like easily digestible that we can you know compare and see where we stand. I fully believe the desi numbers that we see as far as what our rank is and everything, but like you know on the town side, where do we stand with how we're paying people and and all of that kind of stuff? I would love that information from an independent source.

Like that's that's a data mining thing and unfortunately that reference is probably the only place you're going to get any data mind to exist. You'd have to create all the other stuff because you you go out there and they're doing this stuff, they're going to find like 8 million rabbit holes to go down and think that they're off on something. Well, somebody professional somebody's got to be or even if we reach out to like local colleges, right? Like there are kids in college that

need this real world experience, right? Like I get it like throwing around consultants, but again, consultants come at a premium, right? And I think like we need to be savvy and we need to start forwardly thinking about this because like you know the northeasterns of the world the various other colleges we have a great educational higher edge systems here like there are probably students that would be very much involved and could do this for us like versus a consultant because it is data mining right it's gathering it all right and it is an independent look right because um where I just worry is like a lot of this stuff now that we're talking about like we're going to be behind the eightball pretty soon and when I say soon it's probably going in a year, right? Because this five and five number like

by year two, who knows what happens to the five, right? So that's where I'd be curious what we can do to really like kick the tires on that. It's a great suggestion, Madam Chair. Of course. So, one of the things we we do we do benchmarking with the 14 communities that you had in your original um study. Um we do salary and wage look backs pretty consistently. We haven't done a full salary and wage study since I started which was in 2020. We started the process in 21, but we finished it in 22. Correct. Um, all that data is already outdated because there's such a small pool to draw from

that every town around us, actually not even around us, the catchment's gotten a lot larger. Um, we get blown out of the water because when you're trying to hire a town planner and you get zero applicants, you then go, "All right, well, we'll add 10 grand to it." Even though we're about level with what everybody else around us and now that 10 grand more attracts a candidate and that's now your that's now your baseline for every other community around you that has to try to hire somebody. Right. So, we've how many applicants do we have for a town planner? Zero. Right. But Evan, salary doesn't matter. That's the bottom of the list that gets people. I don't know what you're talking about. So, one of the things that just be more charming.

Thank you. Thank you. You are charming and you are Evan. Thank you. Thank you. Uh I we we we try I mean we going back to the the schools town salary thing. So we're our average salary increase on the town side is four and a half%. um one union in the last uh so each union in the last cycle got one 3% increase. So that means that one group of people was at a 5 and a half% increase over the year before. The reason our data looks better than the schools consistently is that we have 117 employees give or take and they have 354 or something like that. Yeah.

Uh if I remember correctly. So it's it's just a economy of scale really. Right. So, ours looks a lot a lot narrower, but we are finding through our exit interviews that um you know the the people that are leaving are leaving because of opportunity. Some of it's because I think we do a really good job of promoting growth on our side and getting people educational opportunities and and having them be, you know, it's a it's a incubator almost to move on to something else. And that that's fine. Um but what we're seeing in our exit interviews is that we're a wonderful place to work. They love it here. They would come back if they could, but they're going to make more somewhere else. And that was our last three I've lost three department heads in four months. Um, and that's going to continue to happen. One, because we all are in the same pond, right? And there's not a lot of not a lot of staff. So, I get it. Um, but, you know, I I I just think that I think that we have to be competitive. We have to create that work environment. I think Jay's doing the same thing on his side of his sorry, Dr. Cummings doing it on that side of the house.

Be respectful.

Um, but I know I slipped everyone out again. Um, but you know, I think that that the I'm going to tie this back because I got off track a little bit. Um, you know, we do the benchmarking. The benchmarking is very hard and not because the data is hard to get. The data DLS has a fantastic website. You can get data as much data as you could ever want to see. The problem is is that every single community you look at has some kind of uniqueness that makes it really hard to compare yourself to, right? So, um, you know, we're going to look at the the we're going to look at the North Bridge schools, right? And we're going to compare that to the Grafton schools, but they have 60% of the students we have. So, even the per per people spending, well, that gets a little skewed a little bit because they have a different economy and scale. All right. Well, we're going to look at this next town over. Okay. Well, they have three school buildings. we have six, right? Same almost same number of kids. It's it gets really finite and it gets really hard to look at how that data actually does anything for you when when you have it.

Um, and so I think a lot of it I I agree with you, Angelina, when I look at schools, it's that per pupil spending because it cuts through a lot of the other nonsense that you then start to see when you start to try to drill down on this stuff. Um, and you know, I I come from a district that did not fund 10 years ago what they should have been funding. And the community has no growth, can't get any commercial business at all. Um, like my my nine-year-old's class is 14 kids. And it's 14 kids because not because we have great funding, it's because there's only 28 kids left in the grade. Oh, wow.

Right. Yeah. It's it's it's random. So now my town's looking for an override. They should have done this override 10 years ago because you're never going to get that back.

It all the growth that we had that made it an attractive place to live is gone. And so to Angelina's point, when you go to sell your house, your house values here, home values here, they're a little higher because you have other opportunities. You have a transit station. You're closer to Boston. But honestly, for a community like Grafton or a community like Mson where I live that are predominantly a place for people to live, they're a bedroom community. They live and work somewhere else, if if your school system takes a hit, that that's that's the most attractive thing that you have going for you at any given time. So, I mean, I'm I'm in the boat of what Angelina was talking about. We're we're shopping private schools. We're shopping, you know, school choicing into somewhere else or we're shopping moving, right? And so

we'd welcome you in Grafton. I was I know. Wait till [laughter] I go in hot from grass. Yeah. Yeah. We got a train station. Honestly, we [laughter] we we've looked and and that's the that's the thing, right? Is your your home values here are so much higher than my home value. Um but you have a lot more going for you. And I just, you know, it's it's hard to sit back as somebody that doesn't live here and watch these things play out because I'm I'm hopeful that you don't go down the path of my town because it's not it's not a good place to be, right? You know,

although my my house was $330,000 when I bought it four years ago, and here it's about a million, too. So, you got that too, right? So, it's interesting. It's it's just it's hard to compare. It's like actually where I started. That's where I was going to say. It's hard to compare and then I've talked for 10 minutes straight. Um but I did spend the day with all you know 12 year old girls. So I got to be able to to talk now. No, that's fair. Yeah, it was all pent up for so long. Yeah, I I followed in talking about home values. No, I I followed three girls around Mystic Seapport and I said at least 10 things out loud that

no one acknowledged. Were [laughter] any of them a Uh I I tried to explain a portion of it with uh didn't go well. The donuts not even like what do you think of that store over there? It was like I I I honestly was concerned that I had disappeared that you were no longer making Yeah, I was not I was no longer present. But anyways, sorry for the digression. No, I think it's it it is sort of enlightening to get a perspective from someone that doesn't live in Gratton for just a moment who also knows what they're talking about. Those those two things together are helpful. Will has also told me I need to correct the statement of I followed little girls around the seabboard [laughter] to to be clear. They're mine.

They're children. He just put his foot farther to heaven. Good call, Will. I don't think people were here for me over here. Somebody's got to look out. Good call, buddy. Please clarify. Those are your children. [laughter] All right. Um, last last um point on the agenda um are scheduling our upcoming finance committee meetings. Um what is our next meeting is going to be to review the warrant for the town meeting? I believe so. When does the [snorts] warrant close? Why should we start this? I wasn't listening. What do the warrant closes on the 21st? Yeah. Of April.

Yeah. 21st, which is school vacation week. I don't know if you want to avoid school vacation week or if you would like to do when does the warrant get posted for uh for the town meeting because we have to have our stuff done by then, right? Yep. Uh the last day get posted what? April 17th. Last day to postp 24th. May 4th. May 4th. So we have seven days. So it's not 14 days, it's seven days. Board has 14. We have seven.

So then we probably want to meet, you know, school vacation week is tough. So we probably want to meet that following week, right? To do the public hearing, the week of the 27th. Yeah. Is that enough time or no, Greg? It would be enough time. Yeah, I think so. If you can hold the hearing to review the articles on the 29th, then on the 30th you vote to approve the the written recommendations. That makes sense. Amber, does that work? Victoria, how big is the expected warrant? Is this a valid question?

We have 22 articles on the draft now, but I know there are several more coming. Of those 22, William, how many of those are the routine standard articles that come up at every town meeting? 10 or 11? Yeah, I think it's 11. Okay. 11 of those. That's I think we could do it. I think we could probably do it in one night. Victoria, I think we can do it in one night as well. I agree. You're also just to be clear, us posting the warrant versus you having your information is a different animal because we we post we post it earlier just the articles and then we fill in all the rest of it. All right. So we don't have to have it done by that.

No. So, if we meet on the 29th to vote on our recommendations um or to review the 29th would be the public hearing. The public hearing, correct? That gives us one day to do our recommendations because we have to post the following Monday. That gives Amber and William enough time to write our recommendations, right? Yeah. If that appropriate, I mean, I wouldn't plan on starting them on the 30th. I could have those going before. Yes. Before your public hearing.

Well, that's why that's what Well, yeah. But that's why I asked how many of the articles are routine that come up every year. Are there citizens petitions this time or We haven't gotten any. Uh the deadline is this Friday or I'm sorry, next Friday, not this Friday. Okay. Um, and I don't think that we've heard of any that we can expect to come in. Yeah, we we haven't any had anybody approach our office to have assistance with it. Doesn't mean someone won't submit, but Right. Um, usually we have a pretty good idea that one's coming. I think the 29th works, Victoria. So, 29th for the public hearing and 30th to approve the recommendations. I think that's

Yeah. All right, if everyone's comfortable with that. Exceedingly exceedingly comfortable. Um, Skip, you're reading a dictionary again. [snorts and laughter] I got to do something sitting around twiddling my thumbs all day. I'm sorry, Amber. What? Oh, uh, the state of the town message. if we can um get a draft to review on the 29th and then finalize it on the 30th. Okay. Want to give you a heads up. Yay.

All right. I'll try to have that um ready by that Monday the 27th so official review can take place on the 29th and then the final on the 30th. That works for me. with with regards if I may Victoria with regards to the state of the town message I think it's important but I don't think it needs to be as lengthy and as much information as we put in every year just because 20 years ago the first one had all these steps in it and we've sort of kept that going all the time I think we can probably cut back on it a little bit and still have a very powerful message

this is feedback that I received last night as well, Mark. Um, and I've taken it to heart. I I I promise. Oh, really? I'm sorry. Who? I'm sorry. I didn't edit. I apologize. Um, [snorts and laughter] for this particular state of the town message, I I understand. It's like you were here. [laughter] Oh, and I wasn't. I swear to God. So, obviously, great minds, great minds think alike. And just to be clear, you're the great mind you're thinking alike is Skip. Skip. [laughter] All right. Now, so now, let me rethink my position on this. [laughter] Look, it's not the first time I've been told I talked too much. So, no, it has nothing to do. It's just it's been the same message for the nine years I've been on the finance committee. We just changed the numbers. I think let's come up with something different.

Like that applause track and then when you're halfway through, we can just start [laughter] playing that play you off the stage. The giant [snorts] that was so I just want to say I think he subconsciously watched the meeting last night cuz that was virtually what I said. Did it really? Oh god. No, I was at another meeting last night, so sorry I did not see last night's meeting. Shenanigan. I'll do something novel. We're gonna we're gonna totally punch it up. One page. One page. An interpretive dance. Double spaced. Bring in those margins like you're in eighth grade again. Yeah. Got to get more pages out of that term paper. [laughter] 36 font. You know how to do it.

It's going to be four words. [laughter] We are in trouble. There you go. That's a perfect state of the [laughter] town. We are in trouble if the override doesn't pass. That's the state of the town message, Victoria, right there. You're not wrong. All right. So, I will possibly be remote for the meeting or I may miss it the one on Wednesday because uh that's show week for Westboro Community Chorus and I'm on tech for that. So, we'll see how that goes. Okay. I don't like it when you're not there, but understood. What are What? Sorry. What are the dates again? The 29th and the 30th of April.

I need Greg to tell me how to do things. I'll be in a great mood that night cuz I get an eye injection earlier that day. So, Oh. Oh, jeez. That's gonna be That's gonna be a lot of fun. We're gonna have a grand old time. All right. [snorts] Thanks, everyone. add on. [laughter] Should we take a motion? I'll motion to adjurnn. Second. Second. All right. Because we have remote um committee members will take by roll call. Heather I Mark I Greg I Dan I Samir. Hi Skip. Hi Angelina. Hi Kyle. Hi. Victoria's eye. We are journ. Thank you everyone. Really appreciate your time this evening.