Conservation Commission - Regular Meeting

[Music] Um, I'll call the meeting to order. Before we get started, let's introduce everyone on the meeting. I'm Sandy Brock. When I call your name, please confirm that you can hear me uh by verifying that you're present. So, start with the commission. Travis, I'm here. Thank you. Jonathan, present. Thank you. Amir present. Thank you. And Noah present. Uh staff Leah, I'm here. Thank you. And Jan, present.

Thank you very much. All right. This open meeting of the Conservation Commission is being conducted remotely via Zoom pursuant to Governor Baker's March 12th, 2020 order as most recently extended on March 28th, 2025. Access information for the public has been provided on the town website. This meeting is being recorded. Please remember to mute your phone or computer when you are not speaking. Uh this is done on the phone by pressing star six. As chair, I will introduce each speaker on the agenda. Please note that you will have you will not have screen sharing privileges, but staff can display any visuals per your cue during the periods of public comment. Uh participants must use the raise hand icon in the Zoom menu bar to indicate they would like to speak. Uh this is done on the phone by pressing star 9 and then star six to unmute when you are called on. Participants who raise their hand will be recognized one at a time and will be promoted to speak. Finally, each vote taken will be conducted by a roll call vote. As a reminder, the commission is concerned with state and town wetlands and storm water regulations. Concerns outside of this purview need to be addressed to the appropriate boards. For example, road conditions must be addressed by with the select board, excuse me, and traffic concerns must be addressed with the planning board. All right, so do we have uh these are continuences, right?

Correct. Which where would you like to start? The very top. Um, sure. Or do you want to Yeah. Okay. So, we'll start with uh one Hawthon Street, 215 Worcester. Yeah. Everyone for that? Before you start reading, Jan, if you can just promote or allow to talk on Brian's iPad. He's in the attendees. Sure. All right, Sandy, take it away.

Okay. Uh, first one up. Pursuit to the Massachusett Wetland Protection Act, the Grafton stormwater management bylaw and Grafton wetlands protection bylaw. Conservation Commission will hold a public hearing uh to act upon a notice of intent application for Grafton stormwater bylaw permit and application for Grafton wetlands bylaw permit um for the redevelopment at 215 Worcester Street and one Horthon uh street. And who's here to speak to that? Good evening. For the record, John Federico with Ger and Helmon. And um as Leia had mentioned, uh Brian is also here with us as well. You have the floor.

All right. Great. Thank you so much. Um so I believe since uh we were at the last meeting, um pretty much we just wanted to get in front of Graves uh for some peer review um and any sort of feedback on um storm water and some of the other site plan comments. Um so uh we did um uh receive some peer review comments from uh Jeff Wall of Graves. uh nothing significant came out of those comments um relating to storm water. The only particular um question or or concern that he had expressed was just the uh storm rates that we were using. Uh we were using Atlas 14 um which is generally accepted in in most parts of the state. Um it we were asked to update that to the uh NRCC Cornell methodology which had some slightly more intense storm events. um that is going to be um conducted for both the pre-development and the post-development. So um other than just our values changing um to a slightly higher number um there really isn't any sort of change in the actual function of the storm water system. Uh we did get those uh corrections handled today and Jeff Walsh did acknowledge that um he did receive the updated storm water report um for the NRCS or NRCC Cornell methodology. Um we're just waiting official response back from him if he had a chance to review and if he had any other comments. Um outside of uh that particular uh comment on storm water. Um Jeff did have a couple of minor points on um denoting uh uses on the building for the plans. Um adding um some signage uh to denote a one-way drive aisle. So nothing affecting the conservation side of things. Um we will be having um all of those comments fully addressed and um submitted back to the town. Copies will go to the conservation commission uh tomorrow um as a part of our um planning board submitt for next Monday's meeting.

All right. Thank you. And uh uh we switched to the Cornell many years ago and we've been waiting patiently for D to actually issue their new storm order requirements which started about well five years ago. So, but anyways, it's you know it's uh yeah it is Cornell's a little bit a little bit higher numbers but as you said is both pre and post and they will get updated as soon as the new as soon as the new regulations come out but we don't know when that's going to be. So,

and I do apologize on my end for not catching that initially with it. Um as far as everything goes, there wasn't any extreme changes with the values. um a couple of attempts here or there on on all of our pre and post

and usually carries both in existing and propose. Um so that's cool on that. All right, Leah, any kind of updates as far as um anything else that we got uh from Graves or anything else that we had outstanding? Um, so I did email Jeff um today about that um that one comment for the revised calcs to ask him um and verify that it wouldn't result in a change to to the design. Um it's just something we needed administratively. Um and he confirmed that that's the case. So if the commission's comfortable, I think we could um still close and not consider that outstanding. The only other um item we have yet to take care of is voting on the waiver for work in the no disturb. I do think I read through findings and conditions last time, but I'm happy to do so again um if you guys want me to. Uh probably not at this time. I mean I I think uh we covered a lot last time. Um, I'll just going to go around uh the commission to see if anyone else uh based on what uh Leah's report is and based on the information that we just uh received. Does anyone else have any other questions? So, I'll go around. I'll start with uh Jonathan.

No questions. Uh Noah, no questions. Air. Um so, I actually do have a question. I I apologize. I hadn't thought of it during the last call. Um, but I know that there are a couple of islands that are planned in the in the parking lot. I was just wondering what plants you guys were planning to uh plant in those.

Uh, so with regards to that, I I don't recall what they specifically were off the top of my head. Um, I do know our site plan set does include a landscaping plan that does have um those specific types called out. I believe it might be sheet six or seven. Um, if um, somebody might be able to possibly flip over to that one. Um, generally it's going to be a grass area and I believe we were trying to incorporate one larger tree and some smaller shrubbery in there just to kind of help keep it green. Um, Brian, if you specifically recall anything and want to call that out, um, please feel free to jump in on that. So, does that help? So, basically looking at uh the tree species, they're looking at uh both the red maple and uh a gko and then there's various shrubs that they're also So, yeah, it's it's pretty standard. I give them credit for putting this trees in. So,

yeah. Hey, uh just to speak on that, it looks like um if I'm reading this correctly, we have um a ginko that's being proposed in there um as well as some tater tot arborites for some small. Okay, got it. And I was wondering if um in the interest of kind of helping with storm water management um especially with some of the kind of more shallow root plants like the the dilly. if the the team would consider um some native plants and maybe some recommendations of of native plants that could be planted in these areas.

So, uh go ahead. I mean, I can I can talk to a couple of the plants and so forth, but as far as all what's native, what's not, uh John, if you want to kind of chime in on that. Yeah, I was going to turn that one over to Brian. Um I know he's been working with um a nursery on trying to find plants that would be suitable for um these type of conditions um with the fact that we're not trying to have um deep roots in and any like uh really deep water um because of the u the soil conditions out there. Um so I I know we've gone through a couple iterations there. Um, Brian, I don't know if you want to um speak anything more specifically on that or if you would be against any other native type of species um as a a possible option for those.

And uh Brian, if you can hear us but we can't hear you, if you can find an unmute button um or like the microphone button, you are on mute right now. How's that? Perfect.

Okay. Sorry about that, guys. Prior to this, even the last meeting, I was raising my hand before without realizing you hit a button to do it. So, but I'm learning. But yeah, as far as the plants, we're certainly open to some suggestions from the commission. That would be terrific. We were looking for things that was salt tolerant because of the proximity to the roadway and wanted to make sure that things were going to survive that we weren't going to have a bunch of dead plants out there between the grasses and various things but we are planting fair amount of grasses. I do love grasses. I know some people don't care for them but there's some beautiful species out there. So, uh but definitely open for suggestions on anything. So, do you have any kind of like I know that the red maple is native.

Genko's a interesting one because it's his it's like it was here at one point and then it did not and then it got reintroduced. It's what's it's got a really interesting uh the abberites. I don't know the different um you know variation the abberites what is and is not you know native uh hydranger. Again, once you get into the Horbaceious stuff, I mean, there's so many different things. I'd have to look up a list or something. So, I don't know if you had any suggestions. Um, so I had a few. Um, so there are some native dogwoods that might be good to consider. Um, so I I could Should I email a list or should I just reach out? So the gray dogwood

for that. So just understand there's a lot of dogwoods that have disease problems only because only because I happen to have a Korean dogwood in my front yard and the only reason I have that is because the American uh varieties had I forget I forget what it was but there was an issue with those. So, but I don't know again I am not a not a botnist. So, I'm just based on my experience and exposure to different stuff. So, but but uh any others suggestions?

Yeah. Um so, as you mentioned, the red maples are are native. The ginko is is questionable. Um there's also there's hackberry which is pretty um tolerant of urban conditions. What is it referred to again as hackberry. So seltis oxidentalis but I could also um send this on a list. Um, there's also for plants, there's also um, blackeyed susans that are a good option as a decorative. Sure.

Um, plant or purple cone flowers. Those are also native and those are quite pretty. Um, and uh, yeah, I've got a couple others. Um, I don't know if anybody on the commission has any other ideas for maybe alternatives. So, I do also have some grasses like uh little blue stem is a native grass that might be a good one to consider. Um I have a general suggestion on a condition if you want to wait for my turn. Like what I mean one thought would be like what if we said like 50% of the plants would have a a native the the genus would be a native species

or something like that which would give some options right the designers because like some of these species have pretty significant tap roots like ginko's got a heck of a tap routt so I don't think the the root depth is a concern So, so, so I think and I'll and I'll go to the applicant and and and it sounded like that you were open to, you know, considering different um, you know, plant species and so forth. You know, your your goal is to have more than just grass on the islands and so forth. So,

yeah. So, we we appreciate that. And to air's kind of suggestions, if we can go more with native plants, obviously uh natives are going to provide more of some sort of um you know, benefits to wildlife and birds and so forth as opposed to sometimes just an ornamental plant um that is not native and so forth. I know Travis probably has a lot more based on his background and his knowledge, but I think because the applicant is they also um they also help with uh storm water management as well. They do a pretty good job of of helping to keep uh water in the soil.

Um and they're also pretty uh good at living here. Um so once they're established, they require a lot less

uh work to maintain. Yeah. So, so to like Travis's point, um, you know, since the applicant is kind of willing to look at different things, I think we can, uh, discuss a potential, you know, uh, condition that gives them flexibility because, you know, it is islands in parking lots are a tight are t a tough, excuse me, a tough condition. So, um, but you know, you can still have, um, you know, a lot of vegetation in those. Um, so give a little bit of flexibility, but try to, you know, um, give them a goal of at least 50% to Travis's point and maybe more than that. So,

yeah, that that sounds good to me. Certainly happy to explore without a doubt. I've been working through with Quebecio and also a local landscaper Joe actually that's made a lot of real practical uh suggestions as far as what his experience has been on sites too. Uh a lot of times people put things that do not survive well in certain conditions. We're going to try to utilize minimal water. I do not want to be watering. I have no intention of putting a sprinkler system in. Some of the beds we native plants are great for that.

Yeah. And through the uh planning board we suggested more than grasses in certain areas to put in crushed stone which will take in more and leave less for the plant life. So it's uh we're definitely on that mindset of the water aspect of things. The only thing I say as far as the crush stone just be careful because it heats up and so you have potential if you have plants in those in the stone. So, um, anything else, Samira? Nope, that's it. Thank you. Travis, you want to expand on what your kind of thoughts were?

Yeah, I was just throwing out the 50%. I mean, I like the idea of trying to require some sort of native component to this. We should probably do that on most of these plantings. Um, what but whatever is reasonable. Like if if 50% native genus is reasonable. If we can do 75 90 that's great. I mean arbite I think is technically the genus is native. Dinko is definitely not. Dilly and hydrangeia is not but you can replace that with rudekia manarda all that stuff will grow in drought conditions and salt areas. Also ginko has terribly smelly berries. So unless you get one that is

it's it's got a it's got a it's got a fascinating history but it's

but no to to Amer's point I I think we should if we if we can create a condition that's that can be implemented I would be all for that. Yeah. Yeah. And I think we could make it somewhat flexible and uh especially because the applicant is more than willing to kind of look at that. Um and then, you know, use it as kind of a case study on just uh what the options are. Um because I don't think we've, you know, if it's a replication area, it's it's no question it's all native. You know, this is a little bit different. Um but I totally agree with the mayor's kind of approach. like if the condition could be 75% native genus plants are utilized and they send that planting plan to Leah so that they can confirm something like that so that we don't have to come back.

No, this is to me would be a condition that would be able to um have you know uh staff kind of review it just to make sure the intent of it um you know we're not going to specify any specific plants. I think we'd be happy to suggest some of them, but um if they're working with some folks now, I'm sure they'll know exactly what native plants are available that are appropriate for the site. So, if air that works, that works. Thank you guys. I think that's a good idea. Okay. Um do you have anything else to add? No.

Okay. Um and now that I've totally forgotten who I went through, Jonathan didn't have any. or do you have any questions or comments? No questions.

Okay. Um I think that's a good suggestion. Uh so far, you know, based on everything that we've seen, we've got a few things that we have to take care of. I don't have any other uh comments or anything. So, um so the things that we need to do is kind of uh first of all go through the waiverss uh go through the waiver, have a vote on that, then we can talk about the findings and special conditions. Uh before we get to that or as we get to doing the waiver, uh just like to um anyone in the public who's uh has any questions or comments for this particular project, uh please feel free to raise your hand. At this time, we're just going to be uh moving forward with And there goes my screen being blanked because I haven't been using it. Yay. Um and we can go through um the waiver request and have a vote on that. So um first question is uh would someone like to make a motion on the waiver for the uh work within the no disturbance? I'll move to grant a waiver for work within the no disturbance for the project as discussed.

215 Worster Street. 215 Worester Street. Thank you. Okay. No problem. We got a motion in a second. We'll do a roll call vote. Uh uh Travis, you're right up front, so you get to go first. I'm a yes. Amra, you're also right there. Yes. Jonathan, yes. Noah, yes. I am also a yes. That carries unanimously. All right. So, Leah, you want to just go quickly again through our findings just so that when we go to the next step, um, everyone has a refresh on that? Sure. It's really so you can say so moved, isn't it?

Yes. Um so findings I have uh that we would be approving impacts um the following impacts 400 linear feet of bank to replace the pipe and this is just temporary impact um and the storm water standards under uh the state and the bylaw were met to the maximum extent practicable um through less less impervious surface overall uh porous surface under the play area, pavement disconnection with landscaped areas, a new sump for TSS improvement, and we're also noting that groundwater recharge is not feasible on this property due to active management of underground contamination. and for special conditions in addition to the 50% native genus plants in the um for the planting plan. Um the work to replace the pipe shall be completed during dry conditions and shall follow the sequencing uh detail submitted. If the contractor needs to make changes to the sequencing, they'll submit that plan for approval. And if dewatering proves to be necessary, they'll submit a detail for that as well. We want a copy of the SWIP and snow shall be stored within the amenity spaces associated with the buildings or trucked offsite in accordance with DP's snow removal policy.

All right, thank you for that. This time I just wanted to I thought Travis had said 75%. He started with 50%. I've been where did where did whatever works. They're I think they're technically close to they're already at almost 50%. Because we've got Cornis, Thuja, Acer. So if we could replace a couple more, we're at 75. So I probably said 50 before I started looking at the scientific names.

Okay. Um so let's so first just to um for full disclosure as far as the applicant goes does um do you think you would be able to do 75%. I don't know. I'd have to defer to the experts on it. I know what I like as far as visual and what's fairly well but I would assume so. I mean I'm certainly gonna try I'm gonna certainly folks desire. So, okay. Um I mean, uh Leah, you can you can um I'm just trying to think it it's a condition. We need to be specific.

I think this 75% is reasonable. Um, and then if for some reason uh based on who you're talking to and if they're saying these are the reasons why we can't get there, that can be something that that are, you know, our staff could kind of look at um and be able to take care of. Okay. 75 it is. Okay.

Andy, could I could I ask a question on that? And maybe it's a qu a question for Travis or Amira, but would the native plantings, so working in construction and dealing with planting seasons, there's certain windows. Would that affect schedule or something where this is trying to complete? And if the applicant's trying to procure the native species, if they're not in the proper season or whatever, if there's something that he can procure, would that have an impact where I just wouldn't want to be too I get that if we're close to 50% or whatever, that sounds like a reasonable thing. But making him stretch for something that may throw his project off, that's that would be my concern would be is the are these plantings readily available when you know year round? Are they grown in green houses or are they grown because they're native plantings in certain time frames, you know, where only in September can you get these plantings? And if he's trying to close the project out in June or May or something and put these plantings in, is he going to have to wait? How does that work?

When it comes to availability, I I'll let Travis kind of respond to that. I have my own take on it. If we're talking about like a wetland restoration, there could be some consideration if you're doing like seeding and you need certain native plugs, like it's a large area. But something this size, I don't think it's an issue. I mean, you can go to most nurseries right now and buy rudia, manarda, okay, cone flower and replace like the dlillies and you'd get a I think personally it'd look better than dlillies. Um,

yeah. Yeah. And like the Acer, the red maple, I mean that's already a native. So along with the Fuja, I mean that's just a variety of Fuja. So the the arbavita. So I don't think we're being restrictive. Okay. I'm no expert on the plantings. I just know the cost. Yeah. We're not like saying you need like a local graft and genotype manarda or anything like that. So I think it's reasonable. Yeah. Yeah. That's my opinion.

Yeah. I'll let the applicants uh you know rep uh John if you had anything to add or any kind of you know take on on uh the plants okay not sure if you heard me there and I think he deferred last time to Brian because he's looking more at the total project not at the plantings but that was what stated before

yeah I He's Yeah. Um I mean generally for plantings for landscaping it all kind of goes on the same schedule. Um and it's not like if you you know if you go and this is an exaggeration if you winter from a red maple to uh some sort of oak or something they're not that different in the planting seasons and those type of things. So um not that I would suggest an oak. It's just a comparison. So yeah, and again we, you know, we appreciate the applicant uh be willing to look at this and if it comes down to an issue, they can, you know, come back. Um it's the goal is to get to 75%. And I think that shouldn't be a heavy lift. So, uh, anything to add to this particular discussion on conditions? Noah,

nothing to add. No. Uh, air, nothing. Uh, Jonathan, nothing to add. Okay. Um, Travis, no. Nothing else. Yeah, I yeah, I have I have nothing to add to this. So, all right. Um, having discussed findings and discussed special conditions, I'd go back to the applicant. Do they have any questions on any of the special conditions we just talked about? No, I do not.

All right. Thank you very much. And oh, by the way, when we ask for a copy of the SWIP uh which is uh done under a different federal uh regulation, we really are not going to review it. It's really for our records because that's what you're supposed to be filing for erosion control. So, we like to get a copy of it um for that reason. Um uh Leah, anything else to add? Oh, okay. So, we uh discussed our findings, we uh discussed special conditions. Um, can I have a motion to close the hearing and issue an an order of conditions with the above? Yeah, with the above findings and conditions.

I'll move I'll move to close the hearing for 215 Worcester Street and one Hawthorne Road with the conditions as discussed and the order of conditions. Yeah. And findings. So, we have a motion and I believe Jonathan jumped in and we have a I'll add my second after the complete motion. Sorry, Travis. No, that's fine. So, we have a motion and a second. We'll do a roll call vote. Um, Jonathan, since you're looking at me now, you get to go first. Yes. Noah, yes. Amira, yes. Travis, yes.

I am also a yes. Um, so that's it. Uh good luck and uh please just reach out to Leah or staff about the plantings. Hopefully that is an easy lift. Terrific. I appreciate everything in your consideration. All right. Have a good one. Good luck on this. Yep. Thank you. Byebye. Now thank you all. Appreciate it. Okay. So want to just take care of the continuence. Sure. Please.

Okay. So continuence. All right. This is for 162 Old Upton Road. Okay. Pursuant to the Massachusetts Wetlands Protection Act, the Grafton Wetlands Protection bylaw, the Conservation Commission will hold a public hearing uh to act upon a notice of intent and application for Grafton Wetlands bylaw permit for widening of a driveway at 162 Old Upton Road. Uh the applicant has requested uh continuence until I need to go back to here. Until uh God, it's November really

November 18th. Sorry. I had to pause for a second. Um, so do I have a motion to continue the hearing to November 18th? So move. Do I have a second? Second. Motion in a second. Roll or call vote. Uh, let's go the other way this time. Travis, we do have a hand raised. Oh, okay. Hi. Uh,

yes. Yeah, my name is Uda Silva. I am a secretary from the uh the Buddhist Vihar. Uh I just want to know I actually I have a small question for you. Uh somebody from cons uh conservation commission visited the site last week. Uh and uh did they observe anything I mean new or anything? I mean just want to know I mean okay so um uh I'm just trying to do so we did not open the public hearing but if you want just for information uh who visited it we're happy to tell you we're not but we're not going to go into any kind of details or anything because okay

based on the open meeting law we can't do any kind of deliberation outside of a hearing. So, um, who was it that happened to go out there? It was me. Okay. Oh, so that was staff. So, uh, that was one of our, uh, staff folks who went out there. Um, happy to, you know, you can give a call for staff and they can tell you what they were looking at and so forth. So, I see. Okay. It wasn't actually a member of the conservation commission. was uh staff which is routine for them to do site visits on all of our um permits that have been submitted. Okay. Okay. Thank you so much.

Okay. Not a problem. Other than that, we were just about to vote for um to to extend uh to continue this hearing until November 18th. So, let's start again. So, I'll start the other way this time. Travis. Yes. Uh air. Yes. Noah, yes. Jonathan, yes. I am also yes. It's unanimous the continuence to 11:118. Thank you. All right. Next up, action items. Uh, are you asking me? I was just supposed to say just go through the list.

Sure. Okay. So, the first up is um the 2026 meeting schedule. Um just for those folks who are uh newer to the commission, uh we the staff will actually look at um all of the first and third Tuesdays to see if there's any um anything like voting or any other um uh holidays or anything else to make sure that we kind of look at it ahead of time. Um, this year happened to be a fun one for uh having to kind of rearrange some of the the dates. I looked at this one, there wasn't anything unusual, Leah, as far as how the dates kind of worked out.

Yeah, 2026 um shook out pretty standard. Uh toward the end of the year, I think we ended up with one in December, just like this year. We have one in November. It gets hard around the holidays and everything, but

other than that, it was pretty straightforward. Yeah. So again, you know, uh we just do this ahead of time so you can take a look at it. And obviously uh there's always going to be a meeting or two that people can't make, but it's just it's much easier having it ahead of time. Um we are showing uh uh meetings twice twice a month in the summertime just for information for new folks. We used to only have one meeting during uh June, July, and August. I think the summertime, uh, we found that what ended up happening is we got piled up with, um, uh, you know, hearings and there was also running into some, uh, uh, challenges as far as some of the due dates and turnarounds and making it a little bit more difficult for staff. Um, so during the summertime, we typically, although it's not always true, have a lesser of a schedule. If there's any time during the summer where we don't have any public hearings or anything, uh staff will let us know or they'll make a call that uh we won't have that hearing. But in general, um the meeting schedule was included um in our packet and um not that I saw anything specifically, but it gives you a heads up on all the meetings coming up. And we typically this time of year will go through and actually have a motion and um uh actually approve it. So the first question which I'll go around does anyone have any uh particular issues with any of the dates or any questions feel free to ask Jonathan

like you mentioned there may be one or two meetings that I can't attend but I I don't see any major conflicts though. So, all right. Thank you, Noah. Uh, no immediate problems that I'm seeing. Okay. Thank you, Amamira.

Did you guys hear me just now? No. Oh, I mute I unmuted myself on Zoom, but it didn't work. Anyway, uh, no, no problems. Okay. And uh Travis, as long as we don't go back to once a month in the summer, this No, I Yeah. No. Yeah. I Yeah. Yeah. It was that on the record. Yeah. No, it it actually worked for a couple years, but then we got slammed and so I'd rather have them scheduled and then if we have to, we can don't have it if we don't have a hearing. So, I'm I'm on board. No issues with this.

I'm on board with you on that one. That was not fun for anyone. Okay. Um, I also have no questions. I skimmed through it. I didn't see anything um that kind of impacted and and you know, we all take vacations. Uh, we all have other commitments and you know, it's not unexpected if you miss a meeting or two. Um, but anyways, that's just to give you the heads up. All right, Leah. Anything else I should talk about the schedule or should we have uh a motion and a vote? Just a motion. Motion. Motion to approve the 2026 meeting schedule. Second. I have a motion, a second. Roll call vote. Travis, yes. Uh, Noah, yes. Air,

yes. Jonathan, yes. I am also a yes. Thank you very much for staff for doing it not just ahead of time, but enough ahead of time that we all have an opportunity to look at it. So, so, uh, you only have here down only February's meeting minutes. We got two in our packet. Yep. I had the other one down under the 48 hour window in my report. Oh, okay. Oh, I didn't look there. Okay. Sorry. So, we have um two meeting minutes. Uh, was uh February an update or something? We're still catching up on a little bit of a backlog. Uh okay, we're nearly there.

Okay, so we had uh two meeting minutes. Did any have any comments or uh revisions to either the February 4th, 2025 meeting or the April 15, 2025 meeting? Uh I'll go through real quick. Jonathan, no. No comments. Noah, nothing. Air. No comments. Travis, no. No comments. All right. Do I have a motion? Motion to approve the February 4th meeting minutes. And why don't you throw the April the April 15th? Thank you. Second.

I have a motion, a second. Roll call vote. Travis, yes. Amira, yes. Noah, yes. Jonathan, yes. I am also a yes. Okay. Uh last one up. I'm just scrolling a little bit. Uh last thing up is the uh certificate of compliance for for Hudson A. Yeah. You want to just kind of give a recap?

Sure. For Hudson A um was a rebuild. Uh they tore down an old single family house, built a new one. Um, we uh, as uh, as staff, we went back and forth on a lot of conditions with them to try to wrap this up. The only thing left that I want to put on the commission's radar is the boulders they needed to uh, mark the no disturb zone with. Um, I was questioning the size, especially these ones you can see in this picture closest to the road. Um, and are those, you know, substantial enough that a homeowner won't just move them and turn that into more lawn or another roadside parking space or something? When I raised that point, um, they provided other photos that you might have seen in Dropbox of like a sampling of the boulders on a scale to show that they're like hundreds of pounds, but to me, those are the ones like out back, not these up front. Um, so I didn't know if you guys were finding this adequate. They are pretty close together for the sake of a a mower getting through, but I didn't know if you guys felt like someone can just roll a few of these away and do what they want or if we're ready to wrap this up.

Um, I'll go around. I kind of have my own opinion, but I'll go around and see what other folks have. Um Jonathan

Leah, what what size are the normal boulders that we see used in this application? Are they these? I agree with what you're saying on the on that front row. Maybe they get larger as you get back further along the property line or whatever the the notice turbine, but these look like a wheelbarrow and a and a person can pick them up and move them around like so. I have the same concern that you have, which is someone's going to modify them. But are they normally triple or quadruple? Do we have a typical size that we see? I know we probably don't dictate what the size is, but do we have a typical size that we see?

Yeah, I'm trying to the fi my files are not really cooperating in the background. I think we usually set the weight or something. Set the weight. Yeah, typically on stone you set weight. I want to say we say two 250, but I'm trying to find that real quick. May I speak? This is Lou Amarati, the project manager for that. Uh, sure. Just uh if you could hold on just a moment, we'll ask, but right now I just want to go around to the uh commission to get their input. So, thank you for uh speaking up. We'll get we'll definitely um get back to you. It is 2:50. Okay.

Okay. I have the same concern you have, Leah, in terms of the size if they're if they're less than 250 pounds. So, again, just going around to get the input from the uh commission. Uh Travis, any kind of questions or

um similar to what the other uh to what Jonathan said and what Leah raised, it looks like something I could move with my rock bar, which might not be conducive to long-term protection. And it also kind of just raises the question like does this fall on staff to go out and monitor sites like this? Um I'm not sure that's fair. So it seems like this should be a more permanent feature that prevents encroachment into the wetland and the no disturb. So that's where I'm at. All right, air.

Yeah, that that all makes sense to me. Um, yeah. I'd be interested to see what they normally um look like. I I have seen some like I know they're usually kind of round, at least ones I've seen kind of. But anyway, yeah. And uh Noah, do you have any kind of questions or comments on this? No real questions. I just think it's good that there's something that we have written about the weights that these should be.

Yeah. So kind of and and I don't disagree with what anyone's saying here and and it's just like I think it's for us to kind of really figure out just um how much we actually you know does every single um stone need to be at least a minimum 250. You know you know the only I do like how close they are together. Yeah. they they don't look like they're quite all meeting the 250. I guess the other thing I just to think in a kind of a different way is that like as an example, we do not dictate um what that barrier is. Meaning it can be the large stones, boulders, whatever you want to call that. It could be a split rail fence. It could be, you know, the the signs are shown in the photos, that type of stuff. But we try to kind of give, you know, the flexibility to the homeowner, not dictate it, which is in this case here if they choose to do boulders and so forth. So my question to you, you know, and I thought I think it was Jonathan who said, is it up to staff to kind of police it to a certain extent? I mean, this is um an a continuous order of condition that stays with the property that there's a line on there. Um, I always like to think of it more broadly if you put a a split rail fence there. You know, what prohibits a homeowner and especially it's usually not the original homeowner. The homeowner that actually did the order of condition and had to do whatever we're asking them to do, you know, split wheel fence. Who says they can't go out and take that down? So I just think we need to be you know just more you know how this particular one how does this also apply to other things and and thinking about this more broadly

and and to kind of come with the right approach and be consistent because this will come up again and and whether it's the size of the rock or it's someone puts a fence in and someone takes it out. So, Amra, do you have something to add?

Yes. Um, so I'm wondering if rather than considering um replacing or or having larger rocks since they are in such close proximity to each other. Could we potentially have the alternating rocks be the correct size? Um, I feel like that would be less work on the homeowner's part, but would still do a pretty good job of preventing um someone from just moving the rocks and encroaching on that space. So, we do have uh the applicants contractor on the call and you know just I just wanted to get everyone have their kind of take on it and and not that I'm disagreeing with anyone but we need to make sure that we think of every single time we ask for a barrier. You know, it's on the homeowner to maintain it. And obviously, if something's 100 pounds, you go out there and lift it up or put in a real Yeah, I get it. My next door neighbor has a little Becoho. He could move everything, you know. So, but that also could happen with split rail fence and other things. So, let me go to I think Lou, you you were the contractor. If you have um anything to add to this discussion at this time.

Yeah. Hi, thanks for letting me add. I appreciate it. Um so the pictures that you have of the boulders on a scale um those boulders are from the uh the row right along the side of the driveway uh closer to the road rather than the back and they're fairly representative of uh the boulders primarily that were used. You know, from personal experience, yes, you can move a 250lb boulder with a bar and a wheelbarrow. 250 pounds is not a big stone. I think if you're looking for a, and I just want to make this as a recommendation for you. If you're looking for a larger uh boulder to be in that place, then I would recommend you go with a number larger than 250 pounds in your future uh order of conditions.

Yeah. So, I appreciate the input and so forth. So, um Travis, you got something to add?

Yeah, it's just probably something as a commission we should discuss so that we're consistent. I mean I Yeah, you're right. Like it a fence an even bigger boulder. I could rent something from Coupeman's and I could get it moved if I needed more parking space. You know, I did see not to get off on a tangent, but when I was at the conference last year, there was a a town that required a a plaque be installed in the garage for new properties that listed out all of the conditions. and it would sketch out like here's your no disturb like on a small map something that's more permanent to try to prevent because like you said Sandy it's the folks who move in next who might cause the issue so

in this situation I'm I'm probably okay with what they've got but and I appreciate staff bringing this to us because it's definitely I think um

you know we try to you know we've had bad experiences in the past trying to provide some sort of barrier. We're not trying to tell the homeowners what to do, but we wanted something there so someone goes, "Why are all these rocks here?" And then, you know, the signs are shown in the pictures and stuff like that. I mean, those signs are, you know, they're on purpose not very large. Um, and someone who understands what's going on and sees it will uh react to it. Um, Travis, that's your point about how do we do continuous, you know, um, conditions and make sure it gets communicated to, you know, subsequent homeowners and so forth. I've heard some different ways that that different commissions do it. I think it's probably a good idea for us to think about those type of things. haven't heard the in the garage thing, but I've heard different ways that anytime it um the property changes hands, they have to have there's a form that has to be included in that. Like when you do all your, you know, you do all your transaction when you buy a house, you sit there with the attorney, you go through all those those are type of things, you know, I don't know, I don't know how successful they are. I don't know if like putting something, you know, in the garage would be, you know, in a in a someplace

you could remove it. Yeah. So, you know, so there's like to me it's like I'm very open to trying to make sure we communicate these stones are here for a reason, not just because, you know, it's it's to protect um the wetlands in the buffer zone and things like that. So, one more thought and then I'll stop is like maybe in this situation for future ones we like request some sort of an educational plaque that's like you know this is a protected wetland as opposed to the the smaller signs that go on the tost which you know they rust they fall over maybe some sort of more permanent sign in a prominent location we could consider as a commission. So

yeah, but in this situation I think I'm okay. Okay. Um, anyone else? Uh, any other kind of comments? So, I'll go around again like airra. Do you have anything to add to this? Um, or other questions? No. I'm I'm kind of thinking to the future and if these are if these the weight of the stone is not sufficient. Yeah. I you know I could move you know with a with a crowbar and stuff you can move this onto a dolly or something and yeah

hell a lot of work but um but anyways you can as Travis said you know went the little you know mini backho and and move them so um yeah I I did uh appreciate the um um the applicants uh suggestion that we rethink the um the weight requirement um and and perhaps uh bump that up for future order of conditions. And I I really like Travis's idea of having a more permanent um signage for future obviously for future projects.

Yeah, it's funny because um the fall conference this is Saturday at Devons for MACC. I'll definitely, you know, ask some different uh folks from different commissions what they're doing and check in with MACC about this specifically. So, very good. Jonathan, anything else to add? I still go back to the so there there was a concern or or potential concern by by staff of and maybe shame on me cuz I I don't recall how big these have been on other um projects where they've been used. But I envisioned something that was more substantial that would be harder for a single person to move because again if they're going to rent a piece of equipment, they're going to do it probably no matter what. Unless if they if they feel like they're going to so that that I'm not worried of I'm worried about it. I don't want to phrase it incorrectly. I don't want that to happen,

but if they're going to do it, they're going to do it. This is for like, hey, the homeowner moves in and they just shimmy these rocks 5 ft over and they just that one person can go out there. So, a number two boulder, a 250lb boulder would typically require two people. So, you have to have like it's it's more of an effort or a piece of equipment or whatever, which would be the mindset of using the larger boulder. So, if the applicant saying that these are all 250lb boulders or mostly 250lb boulders, then again, maybe we we need to look at it. But if they're all 150 to 100B boulders and you can slide it over, that's the concern that I have is that, hey, they're having a party and they want to move this so they can park cars there. So yes, there's signs. Yes, there's boulders. But the sizing, if the sizing is depicted as an option, split rail with signs or 250lb boulders with signs. If 3/4 of them are 100 pounds or 150 lb, whatever that might be, you haven't met the condition or the potent, you know, the intent that we're trying to meet. So that's my concern. Again, I like the spacing. I like that it's visual and I just looked at it and say a person could move this themselves just to create a parking spot along the road or something like that if they felt the the desire to.

Yeah. And I I I I'm sure I was around when the discussion of the the weight I probably said, "Yeah, we should put a weight on it or something because that's how stones are are measured." Um, and and we, you know, 250 is is probably what we came up with. I um I'm thinking one thing that we can do is that when you have a stone and it's typically granite or whatever, you can actually get the density of that rock and you can come up with a general size, right? And without having to weigh every single one of them. I don't think the intention was that you got to weigh every one of them, but they need to be of of sufficient size. And I it's almost like I want to do that calculation. I'm not going to do it tonight, but that's fairly easy to figure out a you know a typical you know whether it's a square rectangle or whatever uh what 250 pounds are. um you know that would give us a better idea and then maybe we can to the discussion as to whether we want to go larger for the you know as far as the larger size which would be more which would way more but maybe it would be a good idea to understand um a 250 pound rock and I know that I spec tons of dump drip wrap and so forth and I you know they have various weights and so forth. I have a sense of what it is. I wouldn't be surprised if some of these stones that we're looking at are, if not 250, very close to it. I bet you could find a couple there that when I looked through the photos that I could probably find a few that were less than 250. Um, but it's again, it's, you know, it's a balance in in what we want to do and also to make sure we give clear um, you know, clear direction to homeowners and stuff. So, I know this is kind of a long discussion that doesn't specifically have to do

with this site other than the fact, yeah, you know, if the majority of these are 250, then it complies. Are we going to make them replace one or two of them? To be honest, I want I would want to do like, okay, what is the typical size of a granite boulder that's 250? That would give us a better idea. Um but I do like how close they are. So So there's

So there's So to me there's like two questions as far as this specific um you know certificate of compliance um plus making things more clear in the future. Um I don't know Leah if you have any kind of takes on this from your perspective from the staff. So part of what I think is is usually the case is I think folks usually go the route of boulders over the fence when it's like a a lot they're newly developing and they find all these boulders in the ground and they just roll them over and use those. And so I think 250 in a lot of our minds became synonymous with these big things people move out of the way when they're trying to develop the lot. Um versus like in this case, this was an already developed lot. I'm sure they had to bring in a lot of these rocks. So when you just literally go to buy a 250 pound rock, it looks a lot different than what we're used to seeing someone who, you know, developed a a wooded site and found all these behemoths in the ground,

right? And they want to get rid of them. Yeah.

Right. So I think maybe that's part of the disconnect. Um otherwise, people tend to go the route of the the split rail fence. Um so yeah, we can consider changing our sizing requirements going forward. Yeah. So, just a a quick look at a 250 um boulder is is is somewhere between 1.5 and 2.5, meaning, you know, length and distance and height and so forth. So, again, I think we need to do our a little bit more homework on our side so that we're clear. And I I totally agree with you, Leah, that yeah, when you're doing a development and you're digging out and there's plenty of 3x5 rocks, you just use them, you know, and they're probably Yeah. So, little work on our side. So, um, so kind of let's kind of get back to this specific COC as far as, um, the commissioners kind of their take on this specific uh, project and whether we should, you know, keep on going and issue the order certificate of compliance or if there's something else we want to do. So, I'll I'll just kind of go down the list. Travis,

nothing else for me. Okay. Uh, air. Nothing else for me. Okay. Uh, Noah, nothing for me. And Jonathan, nothing else.

Okay. Yeah. And so, and again, uh, the whole idea of, uh, we have five folks on the commission. So, you know, I would ask that someone um, uh, someone make a motion. We have a second. and then we vote on it and vote according to what you think, you know, for this specific project. Forget about the fact that we'll probably, you know, revisit this and, you know, make sure that we're much clearer in the future. But, um, you know, if you don't want to uh say yes, then you don't have to. So, that's kind of, you know, my take on this. Uh, Leah, did I miss anything or should that be sufficient? Okay. So, do I have a motion to issue a certificate of compliance?

I'll move to issue the certificate of compliance for four Hudson Avenue. And do I have a second? I'll second it. Okay. I'm just going to go up the list as I see them on mine. Jonathan, yes. Uh, Noah, yes. Amira, yes. Uh, Travis,

a yes. I am also a yes. Now we have some homework. At least I have some homework. So, um, but again, it's I think I like your idea, Travis. I'm going to ask a bunch of folks if there's other things that we can do for these barriers that they're pretty common in a lot of different towns. So, let's see. Maybe a mix a mix of two or three different measures. Yep. Maybe the redundancy will help. Okay. And Sandy, I I want to speak out of the other side of mouth my mouth separate from what we just closed and say I don't want to make it a cost again as someone that looks at dollars and cents and projects all day long.

I don't want them to have to go out and buy thousand pound boulders, especially if it's just a single family. You know,

if Leah's point is well received, if there's they're available on site, it makes perfect sense if that's the aesthetic they want to use. If not, they have the split row fence. Um, I just I guess looking at that and looking, you know, what a foot and a half to 2 and 1/2t kind of chunk of stone is it it's pretty easily movable. So, I I agree we should revisit it, but I I also don't want to try to pass insane cost. I I don't know what the cost comparison to buying and placing, you know, larger boulders would be compared to the split rail because if someone really wants the boulders for the look cuz that looks nice, like it it doesn't impede their sighteline into the to the no disturb. So I I don't want to

I've got some more ideas that we might be able to implement if we want to chat about it at some point that wouldn't I don't think would be expensive. Yeah. And I thinking like Oh, I'm sorry, Jonathan. Go ahead. All I was going to add was I really like the idea of trying to put something permanent within the house and how to do that to keep it consistent because not everybody's going to have a garage so you can't necessarily put it in a garage. So like it needs or it doesn't need to be a part of the paperwork. But I I think that's a good idea that every time it changes hands, like by the time this house is on its third owner, somebody's going to be building something or putting a shed out there or something, you know, like

maybe unbeknownst to the fact that the signs are gone, some of the rocks are moved and they're just moving stuff in there. So, um, something that holds them accountable would be good during that process. Yeah,

that was Sorry, my additional I agree with that. Yeah, and I I think to what Travis was saying, having as many alternatives and giving recommendations and those type of things and and every site's going to be a little bit different as far as whether it's a steep slope or not. Um, and yeah, with, you know, like with the the boulders, okay, if someone's down the street and they're trying to get rid of boulders, you might get them for nothing. That's being lucky. That's being very lucky. But if you have to actually purchase them and move them, that's a different thing. So I think you know again it depends upon the situation each time but having you know having options I think is is best. I mean we all know what the intention is. We want to mark it permanently so that someone asks what the hell are these doing here? And then hopefully they ask those questions and they don't just move them. So which where the signs come in. I was wondering if maybe um when we're talking to um homeowners or whenever somebody comes in, we can maybe inquire like if they do decide to do a boulder barrier, maybe we could inquire where they intend to get those boulders from just because then we could potentially make the recommendation that a split rail fence would be possibly more cost effective opposed to buying and transporting um

large boulders and then maybe you know us potentially increasing that requirement would be more wellreceived if we we help people catch that early on. I do think the contractor will have a pretty big voice in that because he'll be able to say I mean that's like John was saying typically or or Leah was saying you have these big huge boulders that's why they use them that's why we have them in the past especially on a new subdivision or something there's always plenty of them around and they're always looking to you know get rid of them in a sense and that works well but if it's if it's a little bit different case then it's more you know it's more of like what are the other options Um, and again, it could be sprit could be any kind of fence, right? Split rail, anything like that. That just seems to be a more economical choice. But yeah, I think if everyone could kind of think about this and then um maybe something that we could, you know, have a discussion, a little discussion later on and and maybe think about the next time we do this order. And obviously staff can help with that kind of process. So, if they have any ideas, that would be great. So, other than that, am I right, Leah? That that was the last thing that we haded to deal with.

Yeah. I just have a few announcements, okay,

for you guys. Um, town meeting was last night. Um, so we have three things that pertain to us that were on that warrant. Um, we got some additional funds transferred for the Mariam Road culvert replacement project that Jan's working on. She got a grant for that, but we needed extra money because it's quite expensive. Um, we acquired a few parcels along the Blackstone um off of Providence Road that um can be a future walking trail. Maybe down the road, should the Blackstone Bikeway um need to come through town, it could go there. We also um got 27 and 27 rear Milford Road transferred to our care and control or cut care custody control, whatever. Um so that we now officially have like the link between Hassan Messet Woods all the way down to Pro Meadow Village. So Jan and I will be working on walking those trails. Um they already exist. We just got to pick up the data and add them to our map. Um, let's see what else. Um, Jan and I seated the pollinator meadow at 95 North Street today. Uh, so hopefully tomorrow's rain takes care of getting that going. Um, just an a nudge to Sandy if you can check out the invoices I sent you for approval. Um,

okay, I will. I thought I I probably am behind. That's okay. It's the ones for the seed um that we just spread today. And it is going to look like two invoices that are the same thing because we ended up doubling the order. Okay. So, it's not an error. It looks the same, but it's really two invoices. Okay. And then, uh Jan has an announcement as well.

Yeah. So, if you're not going to Max Fall Conference this Saturday, um we're having our first volunteer pull day for the weed warriors. Um so, we'll be at Mariam Road from 10:00 a.m. until 12:30. Um focusing on Bittersweet and removing it from uh starting in the forest there. Um so, we got the tools. We already have several people registered and signed up. Um I'm hoping to hold these monthly as weather allows and then pick it up again in the spring. Um but yeah, we have our first volunteer pull day on Saturday. Um so there's more information on our web page. Um I created a little subpage so you can um yeah, find out more information and register there.

Sounds great. I c obviously I cannot do that this Saturday. I have other commitments but um but uh yeah, I'd love to do it sometime in the future then maybe maybe in November and stuff. So, um, and bittersweet is tough. Yeah. And that property needs needs some attention. So,

Yep. Okay. That was very cool. All right. Anything else, Leah? Um, I am just realizing that we do not have another concom meeting between now and the joint one with the select board. So, I will be putting together like notes or talking points or whatever for you guys and I'll circulate those ahead of time. Um, but again, it's meant to be informal. They just want to know what we've been working on, how they can help support us. They didn't ask for, you know, a slide deck or anything like that. Um, but I'll be pulling together some information, getting that out to you guys, and we can determine how we want to present that. Um, that's on November 4. um in conference room A at 7 o'clock.

Okie dokie. And I would just like to say thank thank you for whoever is sending out the invites to the meetings. That's much easier for me to track and much easier for me to find the um the link to open up things. So uh open up the Zoom. So I appreciate that. Awesome. So okay. Anything else that anyone else have to say? Jonathan, anything else? Nope. Noah, nothing from me. Amira, nothing. Travis, nothing from me.

Uh, hopefully see folks on Saturday. Either you're hanging out uh with Jan or you're at MACC. Um, other than that, I think we have one thing left to do. Motion to adjurnn. Second. We have a motion and second to adjourn. Roll call vote. Jonathan, yes. Noah, yes. Amira, yes. Travis, yes. Leah, just because you're so involved. Yes. I am also yes. The motion carries uni unanimously plus one. So,