Charter Review Committee - Regular Meeting

is 710. I call the charter review committee to order. My name is Don Anderson. I'm the town moderator and this is a hybrid meeting. I'm going to take attendance by roll call. Nathaniel Bodium. Yes. Hello everybody. Hi. Did I pronounce that correctly? It's Baldwin. Baldwin. Thank you. There's a lot of vowels. Mike Brun here. Angelina Korea here. Skip Courier here. Bob Toma here. Dan Fitzgerald here. Marad here. Jeffrey Hess here. Andy Jefferson here. John Kelly here.

Jim Malloy here. Greg Mah. Angela Roman and Dave Robins here. Okay, looks like we have perfect attendance. Come and sit with us. We have perfect attendance. You can sit right down here.

Okay. The first item on the agenda is the organization of the charter review committee. And I just wanted to say a few things before we got started with that. I want to welcome everyone for coming. I am so thrilled with the level of response that received for the charter review committee and I really do believe that this committee is going to be vital in examining our town's governing structure and recommending the changes or updates that we need to ensure that we continue to meet the evolving needs of our community. This review will ensure that the town's governance remains effective, transparent, and responsive to the needs of its residents. The committee has been tasked with assessing the provisions of the charter and making recommendations for potential revisions to improve the functioning of our government. My goal, which I was told was quite lofty, was to assemble a diverse group of 15 volunteers to ensure a broad range of perspectives were represented. Having received a total of 14 volunteers, I feel that I should have aimed higher. This committee is expected to attend regular meetings and participate in the review and recommendation process. The work will culminate in a report to the town council and they will consider any proposed charter amendments. I want to thank you all for taking this opportunity to contribute to the future of the town and help shape its direction for the years to come. Now, we have some housekeeping to attend to, which is the election of committee officers. Uh my understanding was a chair, a vice chair, and a secretary, but I defer to those of you who have been down this road many other times. So I will take nominations for a chair of the charter review committee.

Could we do introductions? Oh, I'm sorry. Let's start back at the beginning. I had that and I skipped it. Um Nate, can you just introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about yourself? Hold on. Hello. I have my daughter here. Hi.

So, my name is Nate Podwin. I've lived in this town for about four years now. Um, we moved in when my daughter was four weeks old, so she's about to be four. Um, I am an attorney, but not no specialty in municipal law. I was a prosecutor for about nine years in Worcester County and now I work for the trial court. Essentially, I work with like the the chief justice, the other judges in central Massachusetts, and I advise them on like legal, ethical, and policy matters. Thank you, Mike.

Hi, my name is Mike Bernie. I've been in Grafton since 2006. And um outside of this, I do a lot of things. My participation in the town mostly has been as a youth lacrosse coach. Um for my day job. I work in human resources and also as an adjunk professor. Angelina.

Hi, Angelina Korea. I've been in Grafton since 2004. I'm on the finance committee. I've been a member since I believe uh 2021 or 2020. And I'm in accounting um for work. um currently employed by the city of Worcester as a budget analyst. I just took that job a few months ago, so before that I was in public accounting. Um so it's a nice change of pace, but looking forward to this. Thank you, Skip.

Hi, I'm Roger aka Skip. Um I've been hopelessly uh involved in town politics and stuff since I got on the fire department in 1977. Have lived in town since 1971. I'm currently a a member of the Belson Trust and a member of the finance committee. Mr. Dtoma.

Bob Dtoma. I'm the digital media manager for the town of Grafton. So, I have to deal with all the technical glitches. I'm the uh current chair of the Veterans Advisory Committee and the trustees of Soldiers and Sailors Memorial. I'm a former member of uh cable oversight committee and uh I served on the charter review committee 10 years ago. Mr. Fitzgerald.

Hi, I'm Dan Fitzgerald. I've been a grafting resident for 28 years. I'm retired. Uh my grafting government service was on the board of registars. Did that for a little over three years. Um I'm going to be a newly appointed pole worker in 2026. I'm a member of the Grafton Senior Center and a bogey support. Mr. Hadad. Hi, Mark Hadad. I'm I've been in Grafton for 18 years. I am a member of the finance committee. I was on the last charter review committee with uh Bob Toma and um I've been a municipal government manager for 41 years. Mr. Jefferson.

Hey everyone. Uh I'm Andy Jefferson. I currently serve as the chair on the graph and select board. uh previously uh experienced on the finance committee and also served on the bylaw review committee. Mr. Kelly. Hello. I am uh Jack Kelly. I'm elected to the Grafton Housing Authority as well as our delegate on the Community Preservation Commission and I have been in Grafton all 27 years of my life. Mr. Mallaloy.

Hi, Jim Malloy. I'm uh uh lived in town for about 16 years now and I'm a retired town manager. I've spent uh 37 years as a town manager um here in Massachusetts in Sturbridge, Westboro, and Lexington. And I retired in September third on September 30th of 2024. Um and I'm currently on the municipal solid waste advisory committee.

Miss Ramen [snorts] Ramen. I moved to town in years. Um, I have two little ones, four and two. Um, my background is in business and nonprofit management. Um, but more so on the service side you will and Mr. Robin skipped over Greg. Oh my god, I'm so [laughter] sorry. Greg Maher.

Hi, Greg. [snorts] I've been in town since the late 90s. Uh, volunteers all the scouts, boy scouts and girl scouts. I'm a member of the capital improvement planning committee. I am an election warden member of the finance committee. I was a member of the bylaw and I am a and last but not least, Mr. Rob. Hey, Dave Robbins here. How am I missing people? Hess. I have to pull my glasses. Go for it. My guess for being vain. Jeffrey Hess.

Uh Jeffrey Hess. I've been in Grafton for five years. Uh for my day job, I'm a quality management system professional and I currently work for a nonprofit that's um trying to get out tuberculosis vaccines. So they're an early stage company. Okay. Okay. [laughter] Now I'll take my turn. Now I'm the last one, right? Yes, I promise. [laughter] What if I had 15? Pardon? What if I had gotten 15 people to volunteer? Then you would have still Well, if you got someone whose last name came later in the alphabet than mine, then I wouldn't be last here.

Okay. Again, my my name is Dave Robbins. I uh have been living in Grafton for 40 years as of the end of this month. Uh it so happens that 40 years ago in 1986 was when Grafton began the process of creating the charter. So my my time in Grafton is approximately equal to the time Grafton has had the charter that we are now tasked with reviewing. Um other than that uh u I'm retired. had retired 12 years ago from a 43-year career in computer and telecommunications research and development which could mean a lot of things and you don't want me to start talking about all the stuff I did for work you you to leave also I serve currently serve on the planning board uh couple of other town uh boards and committees I'm the housing authority along with Jack [clears throat] and the IT committee and the open space and rec committee served on the bylaw study committee a few years ago with Andy and Skip and Greg and Brian Langan who chose not to join this Brian could have been the 15th if he

he would have been a great 15th anyway and I've I've been on various town boards and committees since about 1988 and I probably could not list all of them off the top of my head I won't try again if I tried you guys would all leave out of sheer boredom uh And let's see. I guess that's enough. Okay. Now we can take care of the housing. I will take nominations for chair of the charter review committee.

Madam Chair, can I nominate Mark Hadad as chairman? Second. and nominate Dave Robins. Second.

Any other nominations? Yeah, why not make it more difficult? Madam Chair, I'll nominate uh Greg Mer for chair. Second. All right. Okay, we have three nominations for chair. We have discussion on Marcad as chair of the review charter. Do you want me to talk about

Yes. Okay. So, um, I've been in municipal government for 41 years. I was on the previous charter review committee in this town. I just wrapped up time on the charter review committee for the town of Groten. Um, I have a lot of experience in in government. I have a lot of experience with the charter. I'm very familiar with this charter since I was on the last charter review committee. Um, I served as chair of the finance committee in this town for four years. Um, I think I can add a lot and and help us navigate a very um important process. So, I'd appreciate your support, Mr. Robbins. Uh, let's see.

Well, um, I think my recent experience in chairing the bylaw study committee. Uh, we had that was a very interesting I think we did we did the committee worked very well together. Certainly not all on me, but uh, my experience as chair of that. Um, as part of that, we did some work on the charter as part of preparation for this meeting. I've been reviewing the history of the charter in some detail. Some obviously very familiar very familiar with the charter as it is and as I said, I've been been in Grafton for the entire life of the charter. So, I'm kind I know how it's gone. Uh other than that, I think my my experience in chairing various committees over the years, if anybody's I I would say it speaks for itself, but you're not all familiar with the work. A lot of the committees I chair are those that aren't that how do I want to say it? they're they're not necessarily the most well-known, but nevertheless, um I'm I know I'm very capable of doing this job. And you I should I should say that uh my experience managing a large committee may be of relevant in that our master plan working group was a committee of 27. I chaired that and we were very very successful.

Great. I've worked with both Mark and Dave on committees. I'd be happy to serve with either one of them. Uh I have a year as the uh finance committee chair, but I think my experience would be useful, but I'd be happy to work with either of the other.

Yes. Mr. Robins, I think you put the packet together, right? We got an email with the history of all that that Yes. I I I for this committee, I prepared the the the history of the uh town charter. I also prepared a little document that circulated it. For people who aren't as familiar with what a charter is, I that document is something I prepared from available reference materials. Thank you. and he also made sure that those assets were posted to the committee page on our town website. So, they're a great resource for anyone.

Greg, if I could, Greg, if you're willing, I'll defer to Dave and just make this a unanimous thing so we don't get bogged down. I think we're ready for a vote. All right. I [snorts] will entertain a motion to appoint Dave Robbins, the chair of charter review committee. Second. Motion made and seconded. All those in favor? No, you got to do roll call. Oh, I'm sorry. [snorts] The screens aren't on anymore and I totally forgot you all are out there. Sorry. Okay, we have to take this as a roll call vote. Nate Bodin. I have support. I Mike Brunie. Hi

Angelina Korea. Hi Roger Courier. Hi Bob Toma. Hi Dan Fitzgerald. Hi Mark Hadad. Hi Jeffrey Hess. Hi Andy Jefferson. Hi John Kelly. Hi Jim Malloy. Hi Greg Maher. Hi Angelina Roma. Hi Dave Robbins. I'll vote I. I declare the motion carries by unanimous vote. I will now take nominations for vice chair. I nominate Greg Meer for the position of vice vice chair.

Second. Okay, Mark, do you have any further you No, I I think I'm I think I've spoken enough already. [snorts] Yes, Mr.

Um, I will say that I did watch some of the bylaw stuff and I know you guys worked well as a team there. I know Mr. had responsibilities and done other things. I I did take a look at the Groten Charter Committee that he was on and I looked I I know two of you, Mr. Rob and I appreciate what you did.

Any other discussion? I'm going to bring it to a vote one at a time. [snorts]

I will entertain a motion to appoint Mark Dad, vice chair of the charter review committee. So, second. Motion made and seconded. Taking a roll call vote. Nate Bodwang. Hi. Hi Mike Brun. Hi Angelina Korea. Hi Roger Courier. Hi Bob Doma. Hi Dan Fitzgerald. Hey Markad. Hi Jeffrey Hess. Hi Andy Jefferson. Hi John Kelly. Hi

Jim Malloy. Hi Greg Maher. Angela Raman. Hi Dave Robbins. Hi.

The motion passes 13 to one. in favor the vice chair.

And last but not least, I will take nominations for the clerk of the charter review committee. Before you before somebody nominates somebody for that, we don't have a anybody to take minutes. So I think whoever is elected clerk is going to be responsible to do the minutes. So I'd be very care. That's a lot of responsibility. So somebody should volunteer if they want to do. [laughter] I thought that'd be the best. Right, Dave? Don't you think? Yeah. Yeah. You're a good man, Greg. I've done it for CIPC. So I nominate Greg for clerk. I think this will be a quick vote there.

Yeah. Motion made and [snorts] seconded. I will enter uh all those in favor by roll call vote. Nate Bodong I Mike Brunie I Angelina Korea hi Roger Courier. Hi Bob Dtoma. Hi Daniel Fitzgerald. Hi Markad. Hi Jeffrey Hess. Hi Andy Jefferson. Hi John Kelly. Hi Jim Mallaloy. Hi Greg Maher. Angelo Robin. Hi, Dave Robins. I

I declare the motion carries by unanimous vote. Congratulations to all of you for stepping up to do this. I really do appreciate it. And with the housekeeping out of the way, I'm going to hand this over to the chair. Okay, time to put me to work. Huh? Yep. Well, let's see. I think we we see the next item on the agenda being uh to review the history of the charter. I don't quite know what you had in mind for that. So um

I mean we can I can go through the timeline yet. I I I can kind of briefly describe what the the entire history. Uh I'm not I I would not attempt to go through the the long document. The the agenda is to review the history. I my notes on this were just to [snorts] walk through what you had done. Okay. To prepare all the materials that are now posted on the website

and that is going to be invaluable when it comes to where we've been and where we're going. Um, I don't know that tonight we have to as a group go down a history lesson of what has been done before. But if you want to recap which you kind of addressed when you were going through your experience in that when we were established our charter when the last time it was reviewed and where we stand with the recommendations from the bylaw review.

I can I can cover all of that. Okay.

Without trying to read word for word the document that you can all read for yourselves. Um, as I mentioned, I moved into town just in time to uh vote to begin the charter process, which starts with a an elected charter commission because we didn't the town did not have uh a formal charter at them. It's often said that u towns without a charter document like ours effectively have a charter that is consists of all all the legislation that the legislature has passed either specifically for a town or more generally for towns. But back in 1986 and I wasn't a part of the process back then. I came here in time to vote to start the process but I I don't I don't know what went before that. Anyway, in 1986, the voters elected a nine-member charter commission and the charter commission uh came out with in the early 1987 a draft proposed charter went through a few changes and in May of 1987, the town voted to adopt the charter. Interestingly enough, in August of 1987, we had to make a change. It had to do with the timing of the combining of the treasurer and collector's office. And we made that change by working with Governor Dukakus to get some legislation through. It was, you know, that was the only way to really get it done quickly. So, that happened. 1996, our first charter review took place. The charter review committee did not propose any changes at the time. Next charter review committee in 2006 did propose a number of changes which were passed at the October 27 or 2007

town meeting approved by the voters in the May of 2008 town election. 2016 the charter review the next charter review committee and that's the one that uh Mark and Bob served on they had a substantial number of changes to propose at the October 2017 town meeting among the proposed changes were to make the town clerk an appointed instead of elected position [clears throat] uh to make the planning board an appointed rather than elected elected position. Both of those failed at town meeting. Everything else they proposed passed and it was approved at the May 2018 annual town meeting. Since then, there have been a few other changes made to the charter, not through the charter review committee process, but for all practical purposes, the process is the same regard regardless of who proposes the changes. Uh in May 2019, town meeting voted to change board of selectman to select board. That was that was done by a citizen petition and it was also approved by the voters in the the 2020 annual town election. 20 later in 2020, the town voted to adopt the strong fire chief provisions, part of which was the charter amendment, and voted to change. They proposed changing the appointment of the finance committee members. It was up to that point it was the moderator's sole responsibility and then they changed the charter to create a committee of three to appoint finance committee members. That was further amended in October of 2022 and then in 2023 town meeting voted to make the town clerk an appointed position. October of 2023, the bylaw

study committee proposed a number of charter amendments, all of which were approved by town meeting and ultimately went to the legislature. Legislature finally got around to completing that law in January of last year. So the bylaw study basically all of the bylaw study committee's recommendations for charter changes were adopted. And there was I had I had made a note of that. Where did I put it? Got too many notes here. Uh here it is. The bylaw study committee in their report recommended in addition to the charter changes that we adopted bylaw study committed recommended that the charter document be amended to remove the charter the 2016 charter committee's report was included in its entirety in at in the first part of the charter document. um that proved to be somewhat confusing because the charter committee's report enumerated all the charter changes that they proposed. So when you read it, you could you it wasn't obvious to you whether you were reading the report or the actual charter. So the committee recommended removing that that had been done. So that's that recommendation has been completed. the committees in the last month

and we finally got it over the finish line in December of 205.

The bylaw study committee also suggested including in the charter document an appendix listing the history of charter changes. Uh that has not been done and as of today I don't know that I would propose that that be done. it it could be considered but again that's not the that's not the actual charter that's the charter document and I think it's I would like to see and I think consistent with the bylaw study committee's recommendation it would be good to see the history of the charter uh p posted to the town website somewhere whether whether as an appendix to the charter or as a separate document and we we now have that document

actually posted to the website under the charter committee um a a a slightly more permanent home for it might might be uh in order that the town I would probably leave it to the town clerk to decide where where best to put something like that. But uh anyway, that's that's basically what came out of the bylaw study committee. And here we are today uh undertaking yet another review of the town charter. And uh it's required in the charter that we have a review committee every 10 years. Yes. So we're just we're following the Yes. We're doing what the charter says we must do.

And that's why we're all here today. So I mean if anybody has any questions and any you want you want any more to discuss any more details happy to. Um I I could go on. Mr. Chair, I had a question. Um in some of this the literature or know this better than I but so town meeting right now is representative town meeting no I'm sorry it's open town meeting there seem to be some recommendation to try to get representative town meeting going and I'm curious as to whether that's something we would possibly attack yeah we we we

we we discussed this issue because the the the 2016 charter review committee that was one of the major changes they wanted to look at

but it turns out state law requires that a change like that be done by the elected charter commission. The same process that we went through to create the charter. So if if at some point we wanted to move forward with a with a pro proposal like that, we would have to elect a nine-member charter commission just as we did in 1986. that charter commission would then be permitted to consider changing the form of t of the town government. Okay.

And then now there's a couple of options there if we and we're obviously not going to pursue that because this committee doesn't have the authority to do that. But we could go with a representative town meeting or we could take another step and go with a town council form of government which is technically a city form of government. And as as much resistance as I remember hearing 10 years ago about the idea of a representative town meeting, I would hear I'm sure I would hear incredibly more resistance about going away from town meeting entirely and going to a town council. Thank you. But yeah, a long a long answer to a short question. Thank you. Chairman question.

Yes, sir. Uh the previous charters, are they available online or or anywhere just to take a look back and see what some of the previous versions have been? [snorts] I don't know what's available online. Check with the town administrator's office and see what Amber has. Yeah, thank you. I know the one up prior to the May meeting was available online and that's actually the one that was sent out the first one that was sent out. So there is one that says available through October 2022. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. They they keep records book. Interesting. The the town the town clerk's office would certainly have all previous versions of the charter. I probably have all of them on my computer as part of part of the work I did to to verify that the latest version of the charter is actually correct. Mhm. I may I may have some of them in one in one form or another. [laughter] Okay.

I know at least at least one of those forms I have is well it's it's in that long charter detailed charter history document. I post it to the web. Okay. Great. But that's the original charter. So we you need to have a um a copy of the charter. That's the perfect copy. That would be the one that we would it would be like the what do you call it? The um reference document. Thank you. Yeah, the master document and any amendment would have [snorts] to be. So, I'm going to assume that's going to be Greg's responsibility as clerk to maintain that record. I would assume would that be your thought, Dave? Yeah, that that that certainly could work. Um, as I said early on,

because we had an issue, right? Didn't we have an issue the last time? Because it was one version versus another version. It's important that that and I'm glad you did what you did. Yeah. [laughter] Think thinking back to what we did on the bylaw study of not that many years ago. We we basically started out with a a a clean current version of the bylaws as they existed

and then we uh you know we kept that but we also as we as we worked on changes we took each bylaw article and you know we we basically had a mark a marked up version of it. Uh but ult ultimately that was something that at the end we were able to put together in a one one complete document with all the all the changes marked up and then a clean version with all and we'll do the same thing with this have a redline version for the Okay.

Yeah. is is the version that's on the committee's website, does that include all of the changes through 2425 that were just approved? Because I I think still the document that is on the committee's website still shows that it doesn't include the uh town clerk um changes. That's there there there's a couple of details in there. There there was some elements of the change to the town clerk position that didn't show up in the charter document. They were it was the the state the legislature passed a special act for the time and and two clauses that of that act were not

have not been included in the document that's on were not written as changes to apply to the charter. So, what does that mean? So, my my understanding is that the special act that was approved by the legislature um removed the town clerk from section 3-5. Yes. An elected official, but the version that is online on the committee's website, still includes the town clerk in section 3-5. So, if we're going to start off with a clean copy, we have to make sure that we have all of the um current changes by the legislature through special acts incorporated in that initial document so that we're all working from the same document.

Yes, that that is one of the discrepancies that I've communicated to Amy Barry that uh in in the updates to the charter document, they neglected to remove that section. And there there is there's two there's two sections. There's the um that section where she's referenced in uh 3-5 and then a section for the town administrator appointing the town clerk.

So, how are we going to make sure that what we're all working on [clears throat] is the clean [snorts] document. Yeah, that's that's you know that that's my my my concern and what I've been working on is to make make sure that the document that we will be using as a reference is completely up to date reflects all of the town meeting all of the changes voted by town meeting or enacted by the legislature. So the version that's on the web page

is not quite up to date. So if we could ask the town administrator to work with the town clerk and town council to make sure that within the before our next meeting that a revised version get posted to the town website. I think that would be very helpful.

Yes, I'm I I'm I'm working with Amy Barry to do exactly that. So yes, that that was that was one of the reasons that I undertook all this collecting documents and everything was to make sure of exactly that that we are starting with a known verified up-to-ate copy of the charter. I had an issue with that with the with one of the articles of the town chart of the town bylaws. There was one article that had accumulated quite a number of typographical and editing errors. over the years. So that that kind of taught me the importance of going back to the original reference materials every every vote, every act of the legislature to make sure that the charter we work with, the charter document we work with is truly up to date

and we're not there yet, but we will be. Two things come to mind. One is that is shouldn't the official one like Sounds like you have some information. Shouldn't the official one live with the town? Yes, that's one. And then two, the one the one we have on our site. Could we get at least a name change? Because not only for us, but other people may look at it. Is there some thing we can do about the nomenclature? I don't know if it's within our power, but to even put I don't know the word draft is coming to my mind, but something that allows people because I ran into that situation where you're working with it, but it's it's not the latest.

Yeah. Yeah, this this is very much my I'm interested in making sure that the the official version, which is maintained by the town clerk's office, that the official version is completely correct. It's accumulated some it's accumulated some discrepancies over the years, but yes, I it's not I don't own that. Ultimately, the town clerk owns that and that's the way it should be. that's the way it will be and anything we put on our website that reflects the work in progress that we might be doing uh that will be in the on the charter review committees page or materials referenced by that page. So, and I think we we did this with the bylaw committee as well. We you know we we we we posted working documents you know drafts of prop proposed changes tried to do that as make that as as public as we can.

We had a subpage that listed for each article. Here's the changes for each. Yeah. So when when we get to the point of drafting some changes to the charter, I I would like to do the same thing. Even before we get to the point of drafting changes to the charter, I'm sure we're going to want to solicit from the public suggestions for changes. We did that. Again, that's something we did with the bylaw committee. You should hold a public hearing.

Yeah. Yeah. Public hearings. You know, we speci we specifically asked on the bylaw committee. We asked every town department, every town board and committee for what changes to the bylaws that they thought would be helpful. We'll ask we asked the public. We'll do that again this time. Yes. I want to make this I think we all would like to make this as as public involve the public as much as possible. I mean we'll take off all the old stuff they cross out bylaw and put in charter send it out. Yeah. So, Dave, when do you think you'll have a clean copy of the accurate document for this committee to look at?

It could be as early as tomorrow. I I I I emailed some the the suggested updates to Amy yesterday. She said after this meeting, she'll she'll work on that. Okay. So, it I don't know if it I don't know if it'll happen tomorrow. Well, I think I think what Mr. Malloy said is to have it before the next meeting. So, I think that's that's important. Yes, definitely before the next meeting. And I I'd like to get that nailed down with Amy uh within the next week at most. I think just make sure it's posted on our committee website so that if somebody is looking at it and they click on that and they get the wrong version and we're talking about something different. It'll be confusing. So let's make sure it gets on the website.

Yes. I think we want, you know, we want the charter review committee's web page to be activate and more generally there's other places that the other link to the charter on various other pages. They all should point to the same thing. Yeah, both the town administrator and the town clerk have links to it and previously they pointed each to their own, but they should all everything should point to the same. Great. Great. Mr. Chair, can question You keep referencing the committee. How often is that? That's every every five years again by dictated by charter. Every five years in every year beginning with a two or seven

two or a seven which is to look [snorts] at which means the bylaw study committee starts before this one ends [laughter] depending on how long we take. Yes. Uh that's in the

not not entirely right. not entirely re relevant to this committee's work, but the 1996 bylaw committee, I'm not quite sure when it was organized, probably like May or something, but they reported back to the October 1996 town meeting that they had no recommended changes. Of course, if if if you look at things and decide there's nothing needs changing, you don't have anything to work with. So they they they they their their time frame was very short compared to the next two charter review committees. Are we going to take three years? Because I see we were all appointed for three years. [laughter] Is that is our goal to do it quicker than that? I hope so. Yes.

Hi. [laughter] So, for those that weren't aware, the bylaw study committee appointed in 22 was the first one appointed since 2002 despite requiring that be done every five years. So hopefully that will run into that again [clears throat] for 40 years. 40. That was one of like the people running for city council like their big thing was we got to do this review guys. No one liked that.

Yes. Yes. We might want to think about the relative timing between the bylaw review and the charter review. That's one of one of the items on our list of charter changes to think about. We start we we will start. We consider

if if if there's [snorts] no other discussion about the review of the history of the charter, the very next agenda item, consider charter amendments and areas to improve. So, at this point, it's throwing out suggestions obviously initially from us on the committee, but uh I I I would like to say any any suggestion is worth writing down.

I have a couple. I'm sure you're shocked by that. I think we need to look at the finance section of the charter. I think we need to look at the uh the way the budget is put together. There's a lot of dysfunction right now between the select board and finance committee and school committee. And I think we need to take time looking at that cleaning that up. So I would say that's a that should be a major focus of this of this committee. And I also would like to look at the um the position of town administrator and whether or not we want to create a town manager position uh for that. I was going to bring up the same Well, I think you and I probably would be on that same page.

Yeah. Um and it's it really uh I was going to bring it up under somewhere between three and four. um because there is no statutory definition in Massachusetts of what is a town administrator and what is a town manager. But generally if a the person who's in that position or the position as it's created, if the individual has the authority to make the appointments of all major department heads, is responsible for developing the budget, is responsible for all town property and for developing a capital plan, that person is generally considered a town manager. And so, um, the reason why I said that it could fall between three and four is because luckily now almost every single community has their charter on, uh, on their website. And so, it's pretty easy to go in and pick the major categories of responsibilities that town administrators have and town managers have. And I think if we take a look at that and we take a look at what our town administrator's responsibilities are, I think we'll all conclude that it's probably a town manager's position and we should probably have that discussion. It was one of the things that actually I wrote down that I was also going to bring up during the

Yeah, I I had noted the same thing about the the fact that there's no no distinction in law between an administrator and a manager. Uh but yeah and and I would I would say the same thing that it's it's all about the description of the powers, duties, and responsibilities. And that's that's what we want to look at if if in fact the powers, duties, and responsibilities of our town administrator if we want to consider expanding those in any way. And that's that's I think the substance of what we would want to look at there. And I have one more um if I may.

If there's no distinction between the two, what will that mean in real terms? Well, in real terms, you know, right now we have a good town administrator, but when he makes a decision to move on to another community, a larger community [snorts] or whatever, and we go to recruit a new town administrator, new town manager, right? No, we're not. You will you will see different candidates, I think, applying for town administrator's jobs than you will for town manager jobs. Okay. and and really for uh Evan Brassard, it's better for him if we were to give him the correct title for what his responsibilities [snorts] are. He has a respons he has all the appointing authority. He has the budget responsibility. So

yeah, I and and and I've I've worked in both where I was a town administrator in Sturbridge. Uh it was a very strong position. I even appointed the planning board. I appointed the charter review committee in fact. Um, and the when they had a charter review, they talked about, well, maybe we should have made this a town manager's position, but it came down to, well, we want to be quaint because it's Sturbridge, so we're going to leave it as town administrator because it sounds quaint, but it doesn't really reflect what the real responsibilities of the job are. And so, I I really think that it's and, you know, it's one of those things that I think we ought to take a look at and and have an accurate job title. So again, we're going to we're going to continue discussing all this stuff, but you know, one of the possibilities there is that we we like the we like the description of the job. We just think a different job title

Yeah. might be beneficial to the town. Yeah. One last one if I may. Yes, ma'am.

Um the the way that the fire chief is appointed right now and the way the responsibility that position right now is very confusing. I'm not suggesting we change it from strong chief to anything else. should remain a strong chief. But I don't understand why we wouldn't want to have either the town administrator, whatever we come up with, town administrator, town manager, appoint the fire chief and have the fire chief report directly to the town manager. It doesn't matter if he's a strong chief or not. The appointment still be subject to ratification by the select board. But right now, there's an issue going on where the fire chief has to, you know, dayto-day operational probably works very closely with the town administrator, but reports to the select board. All the department heads should report to the town administrator, town manager in my opinion. So I think we need to look at changing the appointing authority of the fire chief and put that under the town administrator, town manager, whatever title we come up with. And I'd be interested to hear your opinion on that because I think there's a lot of dysfunction going on right now with that position.

Yeah, I I I agree entirely. There's the the other problem with having a person appointed by a select board is that um town administrators and school superintendents get to get their annual performance evaluations done in a public meeting. And if it's a lot of fun,

it is a lot of fun. Um, and if there are any disciplinary issues, it's done in a public meeting, which is really uncomfortable and in a lot of ways, select board members who are volunteers will defer taking disciplinary action because it is a very controversial thing to do, and very uncomfortable thing to do. And um so I I think having the as as Mark said, you know, he's reporting to the town administrator anyway, but he's also coordinating with the police chief and other department heads. And it's easier to manage a team if everybody's part of that team. And it's easier for the town administrator privately to speak with a individual department head if there's a disciplinary issue or something to talk about than it is to do it in a public meeting. And it when you're talking people who are full-time professionals who were like I said coordinating with other department heads I think it makes for very very a much better [clears throat] management team.

Those are my three initial areas. That's it for now. For now. I I'm counting on you to come up with some more ideas as we move along here. See, so on these uh topics and suggestions, we'll have a chance to talk more about them. I'm just curious always about why was the fence put up in the first place. Not just changing, but why was it? Yep. Um not asking for an answer, just consideration as we look at we want to make change. I'd like to understand why is it the way it is currently?

Yes. I think I think we will find that with with with some of the suggestions that we were we work with we'll find that explaining it in or are in further consideration we may sounded looked like it's one of these could be one of these sounded like a good idea at the time but yeah we really we really don't want to do that but yeah at this point I'm more interested in collecting suggestions we will be discing them and ultimately we will decide which of the suggestions we include in our final recommendations. So yeah, this is an ongoing process. We're just we're just getting started.

Any other suggest? No, it was uh more feedback for the current suggestion. We can discuss it later. I have one. I am interested in looking at the commissions and committees in town and looking at which boards get delegates on them and if there are any changes or updates that should be made. The one that comes immediately to mind is the affordable housing trust having no delegate on the community preservation committee only because they didn't exist when the CPC was created. So now the housing authority has one despite technically being a different realm and while we've been able to

I think we got to be careful because some things that we can't do within this is we can't the way the community preservation committee is set up it's a state law and that and the state law designates what positions serve on there. So the state law specifically says housing authority. So I'm not sure if we can make that change in our charter. I I don't know. I think as long as there's a member of the housing authority, we could probably include the affordable housing group when that was proposed not too many years ago and it was proposed in the form of adding the housing the adding the affordable housing trust as a required representative not replacing the housing authority.

Could we do that with it? Because it's there are statutory ones under the community preservation act and then there are at large ones that the select board appoints. So can we would we look we could tweak that? That would be a matter of the bylaw. That's not in the charter. Yeah, I I agree with you 100%. By the way, affordable housing chart should be on there. It's just got to be how we do it. We got to make sure we do it right. [clears throat] The issue previously was um the members feeling that they didn't want that spot being away. But I am now that delegate and I go there and I'm like, I like these meetings, but I really shouldn't be me or someone from our board. Yeah.

Which which does remind me of a point that we need to keep in mind. We may find out that some of the suggestions that we get, even some of the ones that we like, well, these aren't actually appropriate for the charter, but they they belong in the bylaws. Should we should we ask town council to come in and talk to us before we get started to walk us through the process? I think that would be helpful. That was very helpful.

Not a bad idea. But again, drawing on our our experience with the bylaw committee, we were tasked with proposing updates to the bylaws. But as part of that process, we identified a couple of charter changes that really needed to be made to go along with for consistency with the bylaws. So, we did that. As a bylaw committee, we proposed charter changes. It's I wouldn't rule out the possibility that we as a charter committee may find that there are some necessary bylaw changes to go along with what we'd like to do with the charter. So, you know that it's it's possible that we could end up proposing some bylaw changes. I think what we did last time, we talked with the town administrator about the process and his desired process was we submit questions to him and he manages that relationship with town council. I don't I don't think we ever actually met with town.

No, we didn't. I would like to have town council come in and meet with us and just just for just as a review of the process for charter changes. So that would just be a request for the town administrator at this point to have him come in because [snorts] he he's the gatekeeper. Oh, 100% understood, but I think it's worthwhile having that happen. Yeah. Even even though I'm quite sure that I know the ins and outs of the process of charter changes and I I I could tell you the way I think it works and I would hopefully town council would say, "Yeah, he's right." I'm sure he will.

This is this is the kind of thing that it's there's a little bit more credibility when it come when it comes from someone who you have every reason to believe really knows the law. Yeah. Because you know when we when we sat down and looked at it, one of the things the town council will probably tell us is that within the charter, you don't want to be too specific on something. You want to keep it general and then the bylaws because you can amend a bylaw a lot easier than you can amend the charter. So, it'd be good for us to hear that from town council and the public to hear that so they understand exactly what the process is. We did that with some of the finance committee amendments. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. [snorts]

We had something that was specified in both and then we deferred from the charter to the bylaws, which makes sense because bylaws can be amended a lot easier if they have to be than than the child. Yes. By and large, the charter is not for details. Correct. And it's, you know, the the main purpose of the charter is to set the framework. It's a framework. It sets out the the basic structure of the town government, form of town meeting, that type of thing. It spells out the elective offices. The document I circulated about what is the charter did include some information [clears throat] about things the charter can't do. [snorts]

And also the myth Don I think you said that the home rule myth which I read through and I was like okay so what are we going to do? But the the the council part was a big part of it was you may think you're going down a path but at the end of the day town council may

and the other thing again when we're because we're talking a bit about town council the other thing we did on the bylaw committee which I would expect us to want to do as well is when we had some proposed bylaw changes we ran those by town council. We asked town council to review all of the changes we made and town council did have some suggestions. Sometimes they were sort of grammar and punctuation. Sometimes they were more substantive. But yeah, I would very much rely on Tom Council to advise us if nothing else whether what we propose is appropriate.

So we'll at Yes. So at some at at maybe more than one point we will invol involve town council but I like the idea of you coming in with a sort of an initial discussion about what's appropriate for charter that type of thing.

So my if we're still taking a recommendations I didn't go through the whole thing because I noticed that it wasn't the official one but just a little bit that I covered here. Um, you may tell me this is off the table, but I'd like to talk about the finance committee because it looks like like all all proposals delivered through finance committee. I think finance I think cash. I think money, but it sounds like they have decision power on things that are not recommendation, not decision. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Recommendation [snorts] power, right? Influence. They have it. Yeah. So, that's something I'd like to have a discussion, a better understanding. We get both members on our board. I think we're in good hand. [laughter]

You know that. Yes. Yes. The uh over the years there's been some discussion around that I think not only in Grafton but in other towns

because in one sense at least the finance committee is a warrant review committee because they are tasked with reviewing every war every warrant article for town meeting. So it's [snorts] uh the responsibility is not limited to finance un unless unless we choose to change that but that's the way it's currently structured. There have been there have been disagreements about whether finance committee should be called finance committees are called warrant review committees and I don't remember off the top head. I think this probably came up in Grafton. I've read about in other towns if I if my memory is correct. They uh there have been proposals to

some call the advisory committee. Yeah. Re rename the finance committee to a name which more accurately reflects their responsibility. But kind of the more traditionalist people really like to think of it as a finance committee even though they they all know it's more than that. But that's an interesting thing to keep in mind. Maybe maybe we want to change that title or change the responsibilities.

In my experience in Sturbridge and Westboro, the finance committee had the same role where they made recommendations on all articles that went before town meeting. But in my role in Lexington, we had an appropriations committee and a capital expenditures committee. Appropriations only made recommendations on finance articles. Um the capital expenditures committee made recommendations sometimes on finance articles, but on capital articles and then the select board was the sole recommendation on a lot of the other articles. we would even even where the appropriation committee may have been asked a question uh during town meeting um if it was not within their purview they would state so and they wouldn't take a position on it and so some and I think that's a rarity they have a representative town meeting former government and it's a very intense kind of place but um it it it works for them because they're well it's Lexington but Um, I think most towns follow the pattern similar to what Grafton has.

I see I see Skip's hand up on Zoom. Skip.

Yeah, sure. Sure. I I think that it's my understanding from talking to people that were around pre-charter that the finance committee's role was a lot more involved in the finances of the town. And when the charter change was made, it was kind of turned into a more advisory committee. But in deference to all the people that had served so faithfully as finance committee members, [snorts] they chose not to change their name to a warrant advisory committee, which they kind of are, but the town administration owns through a series of articles that you'll see with the finance committee financial information when requested. So, it kind of changed it from what had been far more involved in the town finances and budget preparation and approval to approving or recommending town what it should and shouldn't do. That's what it changed to when the charter got passed.

And I think this kind of ties into Mark's one of Mark's suggestions which was to look at at the uh role and responsibil the finance committee and yeah what was it kind of my sense was it kind of you're thinking the function of the finance committ right yeah so if we if we're reviewing the function of the finance committee then yeah that's a your your thought is well worth keeping in mind with that

I have one more suggestion although it's probably the least sexy of all the issues was had a lengthy conver conversation about the parks and trails committee. I believe that's the official name of it, but their role and responsibility seems to at least the way it's written hinder them pretty greatly and what they can and cannot do. And I think that if we looked at other committees that could be taking on responsibilities that that parks and trails committee could have that would be beneficial for everyone involved. [clears throat]

That that might turn out to be a bylaw rather than a charter issue. But yeah, keep it in mind. Any uh before I get to my list, does anybody else

I have I have two. one of which we've already mentioned which is the timing of the bylaw study committee relative to the charter review committee and the second is that there is a item in the charter that seems to be in conflict with the meeting law recommendations that says that all uh boards and committees shall vote by roll call except for administrative issues or something to that effect and as far as I can tell no one does that. that's in the chart. I haven't read that in the chat.

So I I think that that is something that we haven't [clears throat] done and doesn't meet [snorts] the requirements from open meeting law which just say that you have to be able to identify who voted what way, not that it specifically has to be a roll call. So that's just a minor change that I think we probably say on anything else. I've got a few notes that I've accumulated over the years actually. Let's see. And some of them we've already talked about, so I won't repeat anything any of that.

Are you going to recommend that we make the planning board appointed? [laughter] Little humor. Just a joke. I was joking. No, just eliminate it. Yeah, [laughter] we don't really need that, do we? Okay. There are I think there are a couple of details that need to be updated to reflect that the town clerk is now in appointed position. I think there are a couple of couple of places in the charter where the the amendments that were ultimately made by the legislature didn't cover quite everything. And it's probably because what we voted on to submit to the legislature didn't cover everything.

There were things we said we told we said to do that they didn't do.

Yes. So I would want to review the review the provisions of the charter relative to the town clerk and and make sure that we don't have any any cr left left over from when the town clerk was elected. Uh there is one clause or one one section of the legislation that created the appointed town clerk position. There's one one part of that and I I'd have to look it up. I'm not going to try to quote it, but I there was one part of that which was not written as an amendment amendment to the charter. I think it was the description of the town clerk's job and responsibilities, which I think probably I would I would look to town council's advice to make sure, but I think probably that should be put in the charter. There was one section of that legislation that dealt with the with the transition of the chart of the clerk from elected to appointed. We don't need to include that in the charter for sure. That was entirely appropriate done appropriately done as special legislation. But there's one one section of that that I would at least consider including in the charter because right now the charter as it stands has no description whatsoever of the town clerk's position. you just relied on Mass General for that.

Yeah. Yeah. And it it may turn out to be appropriate to leave it at that, but I I would I would want to look at that. And and all I've done so far is I've noticed that that was there. I thought, yeah, that's something that I want to look at further to see. Uh other than that, let's see what else. [snorts] Oh, there there are some kind of small things. There's a the section on the uh town administrator. There's there's an uh there's some qualifications that appear in a in a paragraph that's not otherwise about qualifications. I suspect I know how that came about, but I I think I would, you know, that that's an example of kind of things I would look at just how the charter is written and are there things that are just in the wrong place in the charter or things that aren't worded quite right. There are probably a lot of little details. We again when we went through the bylaws we we we we scrutinized everything from spelling to punctuation to formatting to grammar and uh and that's one of the things I want to go through with the charter I'm going to I would go through that from beginning to end and Greg and Skip and Andy you probably know that I will even if nobody tells me to as to uh yeah

think we even have a separate article just for doing Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we did.

We [clears throat] did. Anyway, there's also under the town administrator, there's I think I think we could this this goes back to the town administrator article, but instead this this isn't talking about responsibilities of the town administrator or town manager or whatever we ultimately decided to call that position, but there was a there was a there was some language in the charter about filling a vacancy when the there's and what we did When our previous town administrator left, what we did was hire an interim town administrator, which technically the charter didn't allow us to do, at least the way I read the charter. So, I would look at that language for dealing with vacancies, to clarify that to to make sure it's clear that u that at least at the select board's discretion, they could go outside to hire a temporary town administrator, manager. Yeah, I think that's probably been cleared up. There is a section because I thought I'd read that that says um that any vacancy in the offices of the town administrator um the select board may appoint an administrative officer employee to serve as temporary or somebody else such temporary appointment may not exceed three months but one renewal may be voted by the select board not to see it succeed.

My recollection is that language is it's expecting the appointment to be made from within the town staff. which is the the issue I have. Yeah, we can look at that. I I I don't need to resolve that, but I would I would want to look at that to make sure that the charter allows us to do especially because [snorts] I mean Evan's going to be here forever, but if if for some reason he he does decide to move on or whatever happens,

especially because that that situation was a very unique situation where we're in the middle of a pandemic and we don't have a town administrator. So it's like we need Yeah. I think I I want to make sure that the select board can either appoint an a current town employee as a temp interta or temporary TA or can go outside whatever whatever you know whatever they seem whatever they think would work best under those circumstances.

I'm sure they appreciate that. So, it's we we went ahead and did it anyway, but even if the charter strictly [snorts] speaking didn't allow it. So, and that's, you know, that I'd seen a couple things like that in the bylaws and and I think that was I don't want to go into a lot of detail, but things that, you know, things that things that they say the bylaw or the charter says that well, this this really isn't always going to be workable. Yeah, let's let's try to write it in such a way that we have enough flexibility to do whatever works best.

And and that might be where um we can use town council a little bit where we can ask for legal opinions on is the current wording would it allow the select board to do X, right? You know, and then we can get a legal opinion which we can put in the record of uh the committee. That would be good. For the record, I was still on finance committee when we broke the rules. I wasn't an elected select board member then.

Yes. [clears throat] So, let's see. The last item on my list for now, and I'm sure I'll I'll probably think of other things later, but we mentioned a little while ago the question of aligning the uh the time the times of the bylaw review and the charter review where they they come a little bit close every 10 years. they come a little bit too close together. The other thing that we might want to consider and I guess you could I think I think think you could apply this to both bylaw review and charter review. We want we might want to consider whether the charter should be a at least a little bit more specific about the composition of the committee. Right now Don Don had the had the discretion to appoint as for as many members as she wanted to this committee. There was no constraint whatsoever. And I did a quick a quick scan of a few other town charters. And we're not the only one that's written like that. So it's completely up to the moderator how many people in the comm previous committees have all been substantially smaller than this.

Last one. What do we have? You said you can't remember 10 years ago, right? I can't remember. I think we had seven. I think you had seven. The 2006 committee [clears throat] I think had five. I have no record that I could [snorts] find of how many people were on the 1996 committee. One because they didn't do any work and they said don't make any changes. I know two people who were on it. I don't know the entire composition. It was never recorded in any of the town reports. I'm sure I could dig into go into the town clerk involved and find the minutes. So if we really really really wanted to know how many people were on the 1996 committee, we we could find that out. But I don't no need to do it though.

You know, I be while you're doing your research, following up a point that Mike made earlier about the the reason and the rationale behind something. Why the distinction of the five years for the bylaw and the 10 years for the for the um for the charter? I'd be interested to see what the thought process was because looking at a bylaw every five years, I don't know why you need to do that that often. So, I'd like to I'd like to even talk about the timing [snorts] on the on the review piece. Yeah, I think that was a good point that Mike [clears throat] raised earlier. Chances are if you could find any of that anywhere in the records of the Donna Grafton, it would be in the minutes of the 1986 Charter Commission. should look at that

because that's where it came from. It has not been changed. Has not been changed since then. And there is at least a possibility that they copied it from another charter. A lot of the language in our charter, if you look at other charters, you're going to say one of these is a cut and paste from another. You know, municipal government is a very plagiaristic. Is that Did I use the right word? Yeah. And and don't mean that. It's efficient is a better word, not plagiaristic. [laughter] My approach to something like that is [snorts] I don't want to reinvent the wheel if I can find a perfectly good wheel. So, Don,

I just have a thought about why it might be more often the bylaw just based on other conversations that I've had and something that Mark said earlier. You can make an amendment change to a bylaw far easier than you can charter. And as we know from the bylaw review that you all just did, there were a lot of contradictory amendments that hadn't been reviewed and assimilated and and organized. So there was stuff that was I think in theory if you're doing it every five years instead of every 20, you would have caught some of that along the way. Whereas the charter is more I think of it more as the constitution. It's the framework and it doesn't shouldn't need to be dramatically changed as often. that if you can make amendments and we have citizens petitions every town every spring and they get tacked into the bylaw and then they just keep snowballing and then if you don't take a moment to stop and say, "Okay, let's get this organized and figure out where we were and where we were going and whether or not this is really even anything we need to be worried about anymore." It to me that's why it would be more often That that seems plausible.

That that reminds me of the other thing we talked about at the bylaw review committee is having a standing bylaw review. Oh, that's a better idea. [clears throat] I don't know. something that the committee identified as this is it might be appropriate for that section to say that there is a committee that all by law and charter amendments that are proposed are sent to this committee for just

just so someone that has some experience with it can look at it and and they can also provide uh assistance to citizens who wish to petition for change because I know there's a lot of issues now with citizens petitions the select board and the town administrator trying to stay as hands [snorts] off on that as possible so as not to have any appearance of impropriy so having an outside commission or committee or something would help with that it's a good idea

going back for a moment with the the question of the composition and appointing authority for the charter review committee. Um, I mentioned that I scanned a few others. I found three towns that specified the number of members on the charter review committee and the composition. They said, you know, like some of them say like a representative of the select board, a representative of school committee, um, maybe some others. So there's there's one town that I found has the select board appoint the committee instead of the town moderator. Doesn't say anything about how big the committee is or who should be on it. Another one has a a committee and I didn't my notes don't say how that committee got formed but it has a committee to to appoint the charter review committee which strikes me as being kind of awkward. Groten's charter has the moderator a point two, the um select order.3 and the fincom two.

Interesting. So that's how they break it up. Yeah. So I would I would like I was just reviewing more more town charters just to see how many variations there are. Yeah. And in the end we may conclude that hey the way we do it is just fine. But uh you know since Can we make a motion to appoint Dawn to this committee to make it 15 because we should have an odd number, right? That's right. Technically, the charter requires all every multi multiple member bodies must have an odd number of members. You volunteer to appoint yourself. I wasn't sure if I could. Oh, yes, you can. There's nothing that says you can. Okay.

Uh, you should appoint the deputy moderator to appoint yourself. [laughter] Let's see. Do we have someone in this room that frequently acts as a deputy moderator? [clears throat] Um I have a hard stop pretty soon. Yeah. So I don't know. Do we want to pick the next meeting date? I don't I don't need to move this along. I apologize. Yeah. No, I think I I think we've had a lot of good discussion here. We've got a lot to work with here. We've got some you know some ideas for what we want to do next. Could I bring up one other item?

Yes. Um, one other item I noticed when I read through the charter is that there are some items here that simply um repeat what is stated in statute. And so I don't know whether or not there's real value to having it in our town charter um if it's already stated in state law such as petitioning to have a warrant article on the town meeting warrant. It says how many signatures you need for an annual or special town meeting. Well, that's stated in state law. And what's left out in the charter is that also in state law with 200 signatures, you can force a town meeting to occur.

And so we don't include everything that's in the state law, but we include some of what's included in the state law. And so I think it might help provide some clarity if we just referred to the state, you know, as provided by mass general laws or by the general laws or whatever. That's that's an interesting point. I think I in in some of the reading I've done over the last couple of weeks [snorts] and trying to get a sense of like what what I could put into that what is a charter document that I mailed out. Some of the reading I did seem to suggest that there's some value in restating statutes in the charter at least under some circumstances. And I I don't remember

I don't remember exactly what that was and that's something I think town council town council's advice would be helpful. Yeah. The value that I would say that you have by having it in the charter is that um if the state changes the law, this particular charter, because it's a special act charter, is also a state law. And therefore, if there was a conflict between state law and our town charter, our town charter would prevail for the town because it's also a special act, the state law. And so that's the only thing is if if we said let's sorry interrupted our charter is not a special act charter. It's a home rule charter. It's a but it it goes through the legislature.

Most mostly No, it doesn't. Mostly it doesn't. So it comes some amendments to most of the most of the amendments that we've made to the charter have been made by a town meeting vote which [clears throat] then goes to the next annual town election ballot. It does. So, we have that type of a charter. Okay. Because I just read the last couple that went to the legisle. We have occasionally chosen to petition the legislature for a special act to a I think this time that's why I want [snorts] to have town council come in because I think this time it should be a special act so that it doesn't conflict with

state. See that I I think the fact that we've done it both ways creates some issue too that we should probably ask town council about that about because I think at some It could create some kind of a legal issue about whether or not a state law conflicts with our charter or it doesn't and how that charter amendment was originally approved and stuff. That's interesting.

Yeah. Chapter 43b section 20 basically [snorts] says that pretty much anything we have in the charter is deemed to be consistent with state law. So that that that's that's a lot of how home rule charters get away with doing some of the things they do because by definition anything in our charter is by definition is not in conflict with state law with caveat of course being that the attorney general reviews our proposed charter changes and the the attorney general will not approve something that conflicts with at least certain provisions of law that doesn't happen to a first time clerk vote The attorney general said we didn't have the right quantum vote.

Yeah.

But in in a case where our charter, let's say it's a home rule charter question and it says that uh it requires 100 signatures to place an article on a town meeting warrant for a for a special town meeting. Let's just go with that. Those kind of laws were passed when populations in Massachusetts were um you know 500 people in a community or something like that. So there might be a point in time where the legislature says, "Well, we're going to change that to 500." And so our charter would say one thing and a state law would say something different and then we would have to go back and change the charter if we wanted to be consistent with the state law at that point because the state law would have changed after we adopted the home world charter. towns that have just changed their numbers because of that in the last month.

And it and it might be something that's [snorts] just worth asking town council about when we do have them here is whether or not there's value to doing it as a special act or doing it as a home rule as we have it and where we have a uh sort of a hybrid town charter where it's some special act and some home rule. Um what kind of issues we might find with that. I think that's a a good legal question. It's worth getting some clarity on that. Skip, you have your hand up.

So, we we had discussed this whole why do we do this in two different fashions amending the charter in the past charter review and part of our bylaws just as part of discussion. I have a similar question to the chair for madam moderator. Who are we reporting back to? Could you set the town council when we're done? Did you mean the select board or town council? According to the charter, it goes back to town counselor for review before we can make any uh proposed amendments. That's just ultimately our report is the town meeting. Yeah.

Yeah. Yes. I think the charter says that town council should review our work, which of course that that almost goes without saying, but then our recommendations ultimately once once they've passed through town council review, that's council as in lawyer, not council as in like a city council.

And then it goes to it goes to town meeting. Other recommendations go to town meeting for votes. And then from there, depending on which way we write the Tom meeting vote, then we've done it two ways. We've done it. They just just a the the the the usual town meeting vote to amend the charter that automatically then goes to attorney general review and then to the annual election ballot or as we've done a few times recently the town meeting vote can be to petition the legislature

for a special act to amend the charter. So, if I may ask, how often should we meet and when do we want should we pick a date, a day of the week? Does Thursdays work for everybody? That that gets into into the questions, you know, [clears throat] we we we need we need to do this before we close this meeting. How often do we meet? Um, my first thought is once a month. I agree with that.

Just again for comparison, the bylaw committee we met every other week. We've been every two weeks because there were 41 bylaw articles that we had to deal with. So, we need we needed to meet frequently to get that work done. The charter is much smaller than that. Seems to me that once a month would be sufficient. Did we start as once a month until we had feedback and then went to more often or we started two weeks and went to more often? We might have started it once a month. We got into every two weeks pretty quickly. My memor is not that good. Once we sent out that uh flyer to the different groups,

it became apparent that we had to meet more often than once a month. That might happen here, too. Yeah, I think once a month to start and that gives you more time to make sure we get the right charter that we're going to be looking at. I think that's kind of important. Yeah. [laughter] Yes. [snorts] by hook or by crook, we will have the have the correct most up-to-date charter within a week and unless town clerk decides to fight me on it. So would our next meeting be February 12th of February 19th?

So then yeah, the question one of the questions would be which day of the week is the meeting date that works best for all of us? Thursday seems to not conflict with other boards and committees. Only big ones on Thursdays are zoning, board of appeals, and community preservation. So Thursday seems to be a good night. If we did second Thursday of the month, I don't believe there'd [snorts] be any. And the 19th school vacation week. So you want to do the 12? Yeah. Yeah. We've always I've always tried to avoid school scheduling meetings during school vacation weeks. Um we'll stay with the remote hyper.

Yeah. I believe that is also now a rule. Every meeting must be No, except it's at the discretion of the community. You don't it's not it hasn't become the reason why you can't make a mandate. Not a lot of towns have great rooms like Grafton has to do the hybrid is very Yes. Yeah. We have rooms that do hybrid very well except for Well, maybe this [laughter] maybe not this one. Except for this one tonight usually. Did we pick a date? I think the 12th. Somebody's going to work on that. So Dave the 12th let's see [snorts] what's in my calendar and right I should I think that's what Jack didn't you say the second

and looking forward there wouldn't be any um holidays interacting with it until April but that's just the week of Easter so it's not Holy Thursday holy Thursday. [laughter] We can adjust our schedule that week. Yeah. So, are are are we at least for the moment comfortable with the second Thursday of the month?

And again, it's all subject to change if necessary, but we'll plan on second Thursday of month as a hybrid meeting here here in one of the available conference rooms and hopefully a conference room with Zoom that actually works. So the the open meeting law with regards to us getting information from each of us before meeting is could be problematic

because I violated the open meeting law in Groten on the charter committee because I drafted a proposal and it went out in a packet to the to the committee. I we didn't have any discussion but it was I drafted I was a member of the committee. I put it in the packet and it went out and it was a violation of the open meeting law because I'm a member of the committee and I can't share my thoughts outside of a of a meeting. So I think what we at the next meeting if somebody has a proposal that they want to start considering it would have to be delivered at the meeting not prior to the meeting. We can't share information amongst us in a packet. Like Andy, you get a packet from the town administrator with all sorts of information because that's coming from him.

But you can't as a member of the select board issue something prior to the meeting because that's a violation of the open life. I found that out the hard way. Yeah. Um so I just want to warn everybody to be careful about about that. Yeah. And I think [snorts] probably it's good to share to to have information available for review prior to meeting night provided you distribute it the right way.

It has to be at the it literally has to be here in the room because members of the committee cannot share information to other members of the committee in a packet before the meeting. That's we I learned that the hard way in brought I don't want us anybody inefficient state government. Absolutely 100%. It's it's very inefficient but that's the way the open meeting law works. So I I'll share town council's opinion on that with you for if you want to see it because when we did the bylaw we had we had one master document that was specifically not shared for exactly that reason.

Okay. But I think what I would like to propose is if we if if a member has a specific proposal and a specific section of the charter to at least to start talking about it. I' I'd like us to bring that to the next meeting at least that can be presented and we can that could be the basis of a discussion at a future meeting. That'd be my recommendation, Mr. Chairman. Cool. And they can they can share that information with the chair as long as they're not, you know, sharing it out with the It could go to the chair. Absolutely. But the chair cannot then cannot because we're not a quorum. So if I if I send Dave something Yep. Dave can send it to seven other of you before it violates the [laughter] Yeah. I want to be Yeah. We want to be careful about I want to be careful about that.

I I think that's a good reminder too just in general because we have some uh you know newer faces in the room which is fantastic. love that we have, you know, people getting involved. But you, yeah, uh, you know, any any correspondence, no sharing opinions, anything like that. We can talk as a group about setting meeting dates, you know, share out policy. Um, but no, nothing with an I think or I feel statement type scenario. So

it brings the question of how do we want to work together because once I guess we'll have to talk about it collectively because one was if you have a section or we're going to go section by section everyone looks on their own then come back. So do you know like those are uh kind of operational questions that we may want to bring up. Um

what you know what might we meet as a group a suggestion we meet as a group once a month but maybe we divide up into subcommittees still subject to the open meeting law so would have to be posted meetings but maybe we divide up subgroups to look at certain sections like for example Jim and I talked about the town manager piece so maybe there's a subcommittee of Jim me and somebody else that we we go off post our meetings have a meeting to talk about that and then bring back a proposal to the full committee so at least it's vetted by some members of this committee before it comes back to the full committee. That might help with the discussion. I don't know how you all feel about that, but that's just an idea. Since we're so big, we can have

Yeah, kind of subcommittees. I think that's that that could well be turn out to be a useful way to work. Yeah. You know, I was just thinking that if we really had a lot of a lot of discussions that you know that we waiting a whole month between discussions seems to slow things down then I mean that's kind of why we ended up going every two weeks with a bylaw committee. But subcommittees sub subcommittees would certainly work.

Amber will probably kill us because she'll be posting a ton of meetings but that's okay. But yes, I think as you as we as we progress in the work, if we identify particular subjects or tasks that could use some additional work in between our regular meetings, a subcommittee would be perfect. And we I think we're we're pretty much free to create a subcommittee as we need it. I I will not be at the February 12th meeting. I don't get home until 10 o'clock. I'm going to be away for about three or four weeks. So, just looked at my calendar. I just thought I was coming home at 3:20 instead of coming home at 10.

That's it. Jim, you're up. [laughter] I think you should time away. If we can meet on the 19th, that's that's the the other risk of a committee particularly of this size, but even smaller committees that there are times when work schedules or vacation schedules or travel schedules will conflict with any and Finding a date when absolutely everybody can get together can be a challenge. I'm really impressed that all 14 of us are here tonight. I'd be shocked if that happens again. [laughter] Yes. Well, we you know, we'll do the best we can. Absolutely. And uh

presumably everybody will have a chance to well we will we will record every one of our meetings. Uh so everybody will have a chance to view the records and to review minutes. Will there be sound? I I would like to think that Zoom is capturing all our sound here. I think I had I remember in one meeting I don't know if it was me when I couldn't get the owl to work right or something else where the audio was incomplete in the recording. Anyway, so

second [laughter] question. I noticed Markad had a hard stop. So, how do we communicate in between just like operational questions? If I have a question, I'm just trying to think. Go through the chat. Go through the chat. Yeah. Yeah, we do have a a mailing an email list for the committee. Okay. But don't email the entire committee, right? Yeah, I would I would Dave I would any communication should go to you only.

Yeah, the typically the only the the the only communication with the entire committee between meetings would be for administrative primarily though I I've used it primarily for scheduling meetings. That's that's not deliberation. I think in fact I think that's explicitly excluded from the definition of deliberation. So administrative details, yeah, we communicate there there the email list CRC atgraft-mma.gov. So there's no we can't keep track of action items,

right? Like there's no open action items where everyone can see. We could do that, but you couldn't you couldn't provide feedback or comment outside a meeting. You know, we can we can keep a cumulative list of what we're working on for sure. Yeah. Nice to meet everybody. Hi, Mark. Nice to meet you. Hi, Mark. We can't we can receive outside feedback. We just we can't then discuss it. Yeah.

So, we can we can we can say send out a a message to all boards and committees and town departments and say, "Please provide us your feedback." They provide us your feedback. We discuss it at the next meeting and not before. That feedback can be provided to us prior to the meeting though. Yes, because that is not generated by committee members. But we would send that first to the chair and the chair would send it out to all of us. Right. If I'm understanding kind of the sequence, we can either have the feedback go to the chair or to the mailing list.

Yeah. the issue becomes us discussing something not filmed and reported when we are the ones ultimately making the decision of what to put forward. So if it's not shown to the public, even if it's completely innocent, even if someone sends some feedback and you I think this is a great idea, we should do this, it's against the law. Yeah. So it's better not to [laughter] wait until we're in a meeting. And like I said, that includes if you email him and he emails him, he the chain expands as the topic goes around. So don't even don't get into that. [laughter] Yeah. Basically, in between meetings, don't offer your opinions or thoughts on any subject.

Yeah. It's like fight [laughter] Schultz principal analogy. Yes. A moderator. There's a motion on the floor. I believe I heard a motion to adjurnn. Do I hear a second? We [snorts] do talk about item number four research need. Some topics along that line came up during our discussion. Okay. Do do we want to send out message to boards, committees and department? Yeah, we should do that now. [snorts] might as well get it going. Yep. Okay.

As soon as we get that final clean version of the charter. So, they're looking at the most recent version. Yeah. Yeah. Convey that with the uh inquiry to them.

Yes. Yes. Let's make sure we have the have the right version of the charter available for everybody to look at. Unless our town clerk decides she doesn't like what I proposed and doesn't agree that I think I did a thorough job of carefully reading all of the votes since the beginning to make sure that I know exactly what the charter should say. [snorts] So there is a motion on the floor to adjurnn. The motion is not actually debatable even though it sounds like we've been debating it.

You've been sidest stepping. So we'll uh call the role on that. Uh Mr. Baldwin I. Mr. Brun. I. Miss Korea. Hi. Mr. Courier. Hi. Mr. Dtoma. Hi, Mr. Fitzgerald. Hi, Mr. Mr. Hadad. Absent for this vote, Mr. Hess. Hi, Mr. Jefferson. Hi, Mr. Kelly. Hi, Mr. Mallaloy. Hi, Mr. Maher. Hi,

Miss Ramen. Mr. Robins, votes side just for the fun of it. [laughter] I I've always been tempted to vote no on a motion to adjurnn, but I've never done it. I have I do it all the time. [laughter] Meeting adjourned. Thank you very much for Thank you.