Planning and Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

This meeting is also on Zoom. Okay. This is the December 20th December 16th regular meeting of TNZ. Um it's it's also being held in Zoom. Looks like we have a couple people that are on. Um, so let's we'll do the roll call a little bit fifth time. Want to just go around and people can introduce themselves since we're in this forum. P Wer PM

Patron PC official Robin Pel City Gregory Caler PNZ Joy White PNZ and Trent Hyatt with community development Liz Chiplo Okay, I think there's someone back in the room that we can't Smith. Oh, and we have a special guest that's watching us. Steve Smith, member of City Council. Thank you for letting me sit in and learn

and it looks like online and what's the other Chanley? There you go. Oh, would be Shanley Jackson. Okay. Um, so there's roll call. So, let's just go through the minutes. Um, proceed to the minutes from November 18th. Just get a motion to approve the minutes. Move to approve the November 18th minutes. Okay, we have a motion to approve. We have a second. I'll abstain. Oh, you you weren't here. I wasn't here. It's a first. That's a first. I second it.

That's it. We have the motion. We have a second. Any additions, deletions? I have to abstain as well. Do we have a coral? Oh, John. Oh, John was here. So, we have You're like, that's that's We can push it off till next month. That's not No, no, we can do No, we'll just do We have four. Yeah, we have four. Okay, good. There's only five of us there. Oh, John was here, too. Yeah. Okay. So, um, so all in favor approving the minutes. So, because it looks like it passed unanimously. Um, your extensions.

Okay. There's no citizens here unless there's anyone who wants to speak online about items that are not on the agenda. Okay, seeing none, we'll close that. So, new items. The first one is the the wildlife resiliency code.

Yep. And um just to introduce this one a little bit, Robin Pit, who is the city's fire marshal, he's here with us today, um he wanted to take the opportunity just to give you all an update on um some wildfire related code standards that are being um mandated by the state that we update those by April. Um, it doesn't require a review and a recommendation by this body. It will go straight to city council, but we just wanted to give you all an overview of of what's to come on that. Also, Victor Morz is is our building official. We work very closely handinand with the fire department on on building permit reviews. So, working with here as well.

So, I I I have one question too, just kind of on your line. So, so is is this our is this the one time we'll see it because I know it talks about code and that sort of thing or is this like an intro introductory thing to it or you know how should we behave in a normal civil way? Yeah, you you you are you are not voting or providing a recommendation on this. So, it's it's clearly just anformational um kind of discussion. So, you can ask questions, you can um you know you can act act the fool, you can you can do whatever you'd like. wouldn't do anything. Or be quiet and just get through.

I think the funnest subtle All right. Good evening, commissioners, and everybody that's joined us tonight. Um, so, as Trent mentioned, um, this is a statewide bill that's come up about. Um it's kind of interesting for our state and how our state operates and how the state is really going to absorb this in the in the next couple coming years. Um so really how this came about. Um obviously we all know that Colorado has a wildfire problem. It's had a wildfire problem for quite a few years. 20 of the 20 largest and most destructive fires have happened in the last 20 years due to a multitude of reasons. I won't get into all of them tonight, but whether it be climate change, whether it be natural kind that what you're seeing from the the bele kill and you know disease processes and then of course we just we seeing an increase in in people moving into the areas where what we consider the wildland arena, right? And so we we are affected by by wildfire every year. Um we're also seeing that that season kind of increasing, right? It's not just kind of the summer months, right? We seeing wildfire affecting us throughout the year. Um so this this bill is really kind of to start addressing that. Um if you look at the history of fires like you said through those 20 fires in 2012 is when we started seeing those first really big destructive fires and then in 2020 um we obviously had our local Grizzly Creek but that wasn't the only fire that

happened that summer. There was several other pretty big significant fires and as a result of that the governor kind of turned around to the fire commission and said hey we got to do something about this. what are we going to do? So, the fire commission turned around and said, "Hey, we should come up with a a code board that addresses this wildfire concern and so senators cut and exm were the ones that introduced it. It did go through both the Senate and the House. Um, it passed and then Governor Polus in the spring um early summer of of 2023 um did pass this into law. It gave the board um roughly almost two years um to get this on on the books. Um so not a lot of time um but they did a lot of work. So what the board entails um right so again they try and address the wildfire concern right how are houses and not just houses but kind of all structures how are they threatened by wildfire and how can we kind of mitigate and slow those this the risks of fire as a fire kind of progresses and comes up to those structures. Again, very kind of unique for for Colorado because if you think about Colorado and the wildland urban interface in Colorado, it kind of varies wildly, right? Where we live, we've kind of got that that sage pinion juniper kind of side of things. As you go higher into the elevations, you kind got that lodge pole, um the pine. If you go out into the plains, it's more of the grasses and the light flashy fuels, right? All of those pose um an equal risk to structures and and need to be addressed. Um, so the board had to kind of look at at that and see, hey, how are we going to come up with a code that kind of meets um all of Colorado's needs um as a result of that. And they also had to have a way of enforcing these codes. Um, so I'll get into how it's up to the jurisdictions to enforce. Um, but there's also ways for jurisdictions to to petition to the board, say, "Hey, we

don't agree um with your map, for example. um you know, we've done some mitigation or we've had a recent fire that that has resulted in in a change that we feel is is different, right? So there there are ways to petition to the board. Uh some additional requirements for the board. Um so not just uh coming up with the codes and standards, but really identifying the hazards, right? Identifying what structures um they're going to kind of address and how they're going to harden those homes. And then how are they going to also look at the uh the land around them and the land use? Um and as I mentioned there that is a process for the governing boards to to petition. Uh when they first created the board, they intentionally created a kind of a large board, right? They didn't want a small board. They wanted a a board that represents kind of all industries that are going to be affected by by this code. Um, and so they came up with a a 21 voting uh board with three additional members that represent the state agencies that have some of that professional input. I've got uh kind of the makeup here. You see the table? Uh that middle uh square right there, that's the fire marshals that represent me as a fire code official. That's a very small part of of the representation that that was on this board. as I mentioned that they really wanted everybody across the industry that was going to be affected by this, the home builders, the the insurance companies, um the the utility companies. Um you know, it's not just a fire code issue. Um it's labeled as a fire code, but really it's going to be governed by our building code official, right? Because it's the elements of how we build a structure and then the land use, right? and the planners and and how we we manage the the the land around those structures. So, like I said, the the board didn't have a lot of time um less than two years. They got together, they did a lot of work, took took a lot of

public input. Um I I would say right up until the until they published they were making changes. Um but in the summer of of this past year, they did publish um the final copies. You guys are free to go look online. Um, so you can go find copies of the resiliency code, uh, the Colorado resolution that that signed this into law and then addition to the the state map that was adopted by by the board and I want to get into some of those those details. So some of the nuts and bolts of the code um, one of the benefits the to that board and again why this they were so expedient um, with their process is they weren't creating something new with us, right? They weren't coming up with the latest and greatest. This wildfire stuff um has been part of the ICC family.

Okay. Um so since 2003 uh there has been on the books um an IODE that deals with the wildland urban interface. Very small book compared to all other codes if you guys are familiar with eye codes. Um but it it does there are some very key points. Um the result of these are also not just kind of a a shot in the dark, right? It's not just a a hope that like hey hopefully the structure doesn't burn, right? This is based on research and a lot of um background information. In addition, um there's a lot of NFPA, the National Fire Protection Association. They have a lot of codes and standards. Some of those do address the the wildland urban interface as well. And then I want to get to the the uh Colorado State Forest Service. um they've been advocating. It's what we've been using for years um as a FI code officials to advocate homeowners to try and improve their their properties. So again, nothing new. Um going down. So what does this code apply to? Right? So when we do uh put this in the books, this only applies to new structures coming in. And when I'm I'm trying to use the word structures, right? It's not just residential structures. is all um structures that are occupiable by humans, right? So, commercial and residential because we've seen um time and time again through all these unfortunate incidents um especially in in the the western part of the country where wildfire is pretty indiscriminate, right? And it's it's going to burn regardless of of what you you build. Um there's no retroactivity to this code, right? So, we're not coming in and saying, "Hey, your existing structure, you now need to come and meet these standards." But if you do make some some big additions to your house, so they they say 500 square feet or more. So again, these are additions. Or if you're replacing part of your structure, right? So if you're going to replace the roof, your new roof needs to meet the new requirements. Or if you're

going to replace the siding of your house, the siding needs to meet, but not the entire structure if you if you're upgrading those parts. What the code does not apply to um is just your everyday alterations to your house, right? your staining, your painting, your indoor um alterations, right? They're really looking at if you're expanding um on your parcel. What it also doesn't apply to, and this is a little bit controversial right now, is 35 plus acre properties. One of the the the ideas behind this code is to try and prevent the structure to structure ignition, right? What we be seeing on these large fires, right? And what we see on these large parcels, it's like, hey, these are more like those ranching parcels where you have a single property in the middle surrounded by their their farm property or whatever property they own up in the mountains, right? It's kind of up to that owner to manage the that property a little bit better than just what this code's applying. Um, and then I'm going to get into why fences are also important in in a second. Um and so when they they looked at the hazard classes, uh they they went and they said, "Okay, there's going to be three hazard classes. It's going to be low, medium, and high." What they also did is only came up with two classes of, "Hey, this is what we're going to apply the building code to." So when you look at the map, you're going to see uh yellows that represent the the low hazards and then the oranges and reds that represent the high hazards. So those high hazards needs to represent meet the class two requirements and then the low hazards for class one. Um the state map that they came up with um is really based on fire intensity, right? So they looked at the fuels that are involved. They looked at kind of like the height of the fuels. They looked at how that fire is going to be uh kind of progressing through through that field. Um and that's kind of where the map kind of lies at the state level.

It's can be up to us to come up with our local map that that deals with the slope, the fuel, and then the your your weather history. I'm going to pull up this copy of the state map. It is a very large GIS file. So, I just do warn you if you do open it on your computer, it does take a second to load, right? But you do see those yellows, the oranges, and the reds, especially out in the planes, as I mentioned, those light flashy fuels, right? it's going to be more of those yellows. Um whereas when you go up into the mountain corridor, you're going to see those oranges and reds being being more prevalent. Is this available on our GIS mapping through the county? Do you know?

I don't think the package. Yeah. And so right now it's it's on the website. There's we've been learning that again I'm not a GIS expert, but they don't actually have it publicly available for us to pull off, but there's ways for us to try and get that data and populate ons. the areas that aren't red, yellow, or

so. Yeah. So, I want to get into that. Well, first off, you'll notice it's a very, you know, it's there's a large map, right, representing right there. Actually, I'll I'll get you our little bit of a closer image right there. So, the hash marks represent federal or tribal lands that obviously the state code doesn't apply to. What the code, what the map also doesn't take into account is city centers and urban environments, right? they really are looking at those fuels and so when you come up and where you do have those residential properties and and those more urban density environments the map does it isn't populated for for that right so it's up to us as as a local jurisdiction to define those right the other thing I want to kind of explain to you the difference between that low and the medium and high is the low is really is you're looking at the ember projection right so you have a a wildfire that's developing in in the vicinity of your town and those embers that are getting projected by the winds that are hitting the side of your house and landing in the eaves and all those places that can catch fire versus a approaching wildfire, right? That's that has that flame impinchment and that higher uh heat right against the house. So those are the kind of the the two ways to look about it is is the the embers and then the direct flame impinchment. So in order to protect our houses against those those two two things um first off is again the building requirements right how are we building our our building to withstand those embers that land on the house for the for a while now we have been requiring class A roof coverings in our city right it's been a long time since we've had wood shaped shingles it's been even longer since we've had say uh thatch roofs right that was a thing back in the day We burnt down a lot of houses and we're like, "Hey, probably shouldn't do that anymore, right?" But then there's there's also other other ways as I

mentioned, right? As those embers land on on that house and then fall into the gutters and and the down spouse, right? Making sure that those components are not combustible and aren't spreading the fire within the house. And then those embers, we've seen that the the quarter inch mesh is is the best recommendation to stop those embers from getting entrained into your eaves and then starting those combustible materials behind. uh the your your exterior. So again, so those are the the building requirements. Looking at the the land use, again, this is nothing new, right? If you look at the home ignition zone that the Colorado State University has put up, we've been preaching this for years, right? That 5 foot setback around your house because again, that's where those embers are landing, right? And we see that this is a pretty good example is unfortunately the fires in California, right? You see all those those houses that have lush green vegetation around the house. But unfortunately, as that wildfire kind of comes up and it creeps up, it preheats those fuels and by the time that that fire does get up there, those fuels just burn, right? And they are fuels at that point, right? So, we're like, hey, let's not have any fuels in that that 5 foot setback. Um, and then also, as I mentioned before, that fencing, right? So we we've noticed that hey the the firefront passes but then we have these methods for that fire to kind of work its way those those slow moving fires and gets into the house and the the two ways that does it is through fencing and also the retaining walls. So, you think about the retaining walls, especially like the uh railroad ties, they're pregnantated with all the the chemicals and the oils, right? They catch fire and they're slow burning, right? Hard to put out, right? And if they're up against the house, that's it's not a good situation. So, that's for class one. Class two takes class one requirements and then just adds to it, right? So, in addition to the roofing and the gutters, they also look at really all the appendages

of the house. They look at the decking material, right? We've seen time and time again all these structures that we we've lost because of the decks, right? Especially the decking. It's not just the deck of material, but it's unfortunately it's what we put on the decks as well, right? The furniture and everything else, right? So, this is again the building component. There's also an education part that's up to us as as members of of the fire department to try and teach people. It's like, hey, this these are the best practices. Um but then coming back to the land use um really for the class two it's it kind of looks at at that bigger picture right so it's looking at that flame front as it's coming towards the house and try and slow that down and try and minimize it right so looking at tree crowns trying to space tree crowns apart from each other try and prevent those ladder fields trying to cut those grasses down not have large piles of mulch logs all that that you know again just intensify that fire and and can cause impingement in within the structure. Uh the difference you'll see between the what they call the HIS is the SIS because again we're trying to get away from it just being homes, right? These are all structures in the wild and over interface. So as I mentioned um this was signed into law. Um it gives jurisdictions um some some leeway. Uh but we do every governing body does have to adopt this. So, I'm in front of you guys tonight with the city. Um, but as you guys know, as a as a fire district, I'm working at the county level to make sure that the county adopts it and then the districts below that that that also have to meet that, right? So, every governing body, it's it's a lot of work for for everybody right now. Um, but it's good. I I I agree with this. Again, as a FIC code official, this is what we've been preaching for years, right? And this is a first opportunity really for the state to start addressing this and have the the best way for when we tell people to evacuate because of a fire for them to

come back and actually have their their homes and their livelihoods still exist. Um I've gone through kind of again what the the board is designed right they they've come up with the code already. They come up with all the criteria which which we have to abide by. Um but really looking at what what's comes next is initially it was only six months. Luckily it was extended to give um everybody some some time uh to to get with with this. But we have April 1 to adopt this get this in the books and then three months after that to start enforcing. I I really don't see a big issue here at a city level because I think some of our building requirements and some of our planning and zone zoning requirements are pretty strict already dealing with some of the stuff because as a community we we've been dealing with this you know for for many years. It's the county level that we really, you know, kind of strugg to mention it's it's the resources, right? So it's not just us, you know, with Garfield County, you got to think across the state level, right? You got to think of all the municipalities and the counties that don't even have a building department, right? So it's it's a lot of work. Um, but we we we're doing the best we can. I am going to leave you with this picture. Many of you are familiar with it, right? From 2002 from the coal scene. You can, it's very evident when you look up on that hillside, that ridge line where that fire was stopped by the firefighters before it went into the the valley there where the the city water plant is. What I do want to point out is again is fire is indiscriminate, right? It really doesn't care if it's a residential, commercial, whatever you've built there, it's going to move its way through. And our idea is as firefighters is try and stop that fire and have all the structures around it still standing. So that's the point of this code. I, as I said, as a FIC code official, I I'm fully on board with this. Um, it's just

a matter of of starting to enforce it at at the city level. So, is is everyone kind of familiar with those zones around a structure and how it allows for certain vegetation within five feet, another within 30 feet, and then a temperature for 100. No. Okay. You want to explain that a little bit, Robin?

Yeah. So, again, I mentioned um there's a couple ignition zones what they call the the initial ignition zone is that first five feet, right? Where where they really look at where those embers are landing um how those fires are really up against the house. But when they look at the the zone two and three again, it's that property management, right? So, it's how is that fire progressing? So, if you look think about tree crowns, right? If we have a whole bunch of trees up against each other, that fire is going to progress a lot faster if we spread those trees apart from each other. The same with like ladder fuels, right? If we have all those limbs that are down low that are nice and dry and can pick up those those fires. Um, and so it's it's just trying to manage manage that property away from the structure to try and slow that spread of fire because again, it's it's not just the embers, it's that direct flame impinchment that we try and prevent up against the house. Um and and sorry John you had your hand up. One other thing um did did we I thought I had seen the map um of Glenwood.

Yeah. In in the presentation or was it somewhere else that I saw comments? So, um, we we did have a little bit closer view of town and most of our municipality um falls in the the low or moderate zone for fire hazard. But as Robin mentioned, there's only two separate classes of applying those standards. Yeah. Um what I have heard from folks around the state is that um you know and you can imagine right the areas on the on the kind of the perimeter of our city are where you're going to find the more m moderate hazard zones. The interior of the city is going to be a lower hazard.

However, it's a lot easier to apply one standard. So, um, a lot of the discussion has been instead of breaking up your municipality or your jurisdiction into multiple areas, especially for us since we're talking about a small area and not a large county, it's easier to apply one standard. Therefore, your default is going to be the higher standard. Now, that means some people get penalized maybe unfairly, but what it does is it makes it easier to educate the public on the applicable standards. It also makes it easier for sourcing the materials that are going to be used within a community. It's like, you know, you want to make sure that Lowe's has the, you know, the mesh um, you know, diameter that's required for the the sophets on our properties. You want to make sure that they have the the the timber or that meets those standards or the facade um, application that meets those standards. So again, it's it's it's a tough it's tough to apply these regulations to a large area, but you know, in our circumstance, we best way to do that's going to be to apply the same stand.

I think John had his hand up first. Not Oh, sorry. I thought you I thought I saw your finger up earlier. I think questions. Oh, did you have a question? Go ahead.

Just kind of off that I think I saw in there. Thank you, Robin. um that the state is asking each governing body to come up with kind of an offramp in some situations to address some nuances with the property. Is that is that right? Oh, well, I mean, you know, we're always going to have our our kind of administrative relief opportunities through the building code that, you know, Victor can jump in and make certain interpretations and then we we don't use it very often, but we have a building board of appeals, too, that come in comes in and says, "Hey, this clearly doesn't apply to me." Kind of like this. Well, I think the planning commission is us. Yeah, it is. It is the planning commission. So, the planning commission might get tasked with evaluating some of those those concerns at some point,

right? I could ask another one here. Um, just generally the treatment of this within conduct. Is this a separate code analysis through a building application or is this all done inhouse? The permit system?

Yeah. Well, so yes, um the the building code and the development code are two separate parts of the municipal code, two separate titles. We obviously worked hand work hand inand all the time with uh our our building official and our building inspector, you know, wanting to make sure as we're reviewing applications that certain building code requirements have been met. Um but I do have some concerns in terms of our development code. Um something we're start looking into now in regards to this generally is our landscaping code, right? Is our landscaping code going to say that you are required to install landscaping that's not in compliance with the fire code? So we want to get those two things to mesh together. Also certain maybe design standard standards and guidelines want to make sure that those interplay.

Great. So I guess kind of as through your lens from a policy suggestion idea on that would be to be differential to this code and reook at that kind of marry the codes right. Yeah. I mean this this is going to be a state mostly your design and landscaping zoning those are zoning type you know regulations that are that are not required by state statute but we're given the right to apply those. Okay. Thank you. I had a question. You're next.

Okay. Um, are those the the class one and class two those are those tied to insurance at all or are they different? No. Mapping the the insurance is a very good topic to do this map. Well, I I think I think it's it's it's no I think it's pretty obvious that there's a lot of insurance companies that are looking at the wildfire risk, right? and whether to even insure people with the wildfire risk.

This to us, you'll see there was representation from the insurance on the board, right? We you do have to realize that the insurance companies do use their own maps and their own proprietary information to to get to stuff. But I I we feel that this is the first step to having a a a standard, right? And if people are meeting the standard, then the insurance company is going to look at that and say, "Hey, if you're meeting the standard that's published, actually a benefit." It's a benefit. Yeah. Right. And so we we hoping that in the long term, this is this is actually going to help with insurance.

Good. Good. Okay. And then um you guys will do so I know this gets kicked into gear with new like new improvements, but you guys I've heard will do a free fire assessment for people that that generally just want somebody to come in and take a look at their exterior and see if they are Yep. So we do have assessment program out there. um we are expanding that to to meet the the needs of of this new code, right? Because before it's been under for the homeowner to want to do it and now they're going to have to have to meet these requirements,

right? The people who are improving their home, but but it'll still be available, but it'll still be available for the those existing comp. Yeah. And then um obviously this like applies to structures which are very important but is there some sort of bigger effort going into just wildfires in general and and just being strategic about that? I mean obviously there is but

so and this is just one component of of the wildfire issue right like the board came out and said hey how how do we protect structures right there's all the other work that's been going on at the state and local levels to do deal with evacuation routes to deal with some of the other stuff like I mentioned like like the disease and mitigation of the forest right like there's a lot of work we've been working on that the past month right you've been seeing us on on the hillside right so there's there's a a lot of different layers to this. This is just one component that we are hoping is going to fix. Thank you.

So, if I wanted to put a shed on my property, this would trigger this would be a trigger. It would not. Right. So, again, they're looking at occupiable structures, right? And so an ADU if you have I built an ADU.

And so chapter one and I didn't have, you know, all the whole chapter one out there because it does go into um what it applies to and what it doesn't apply to. It doesn't apply to sheds. It doesn't apply um to some of those accessory structures that are found on a property, right? They just dealing with the the the main property itself and and try and keep that safe really. So like I could stick an ADU on it be made of sticks basically. It's occupied structure. Yeah. 500 square feet, right? 500

but and if it's a roof replacement then this does. So again, it will just be the roof component that you're replacing would have to then meet the the new the new and that's not really a change require a class A roof. I don't know if you came to my house, you'd be like, "This place is going down." So I don't know. Robin would be happy to come out. Yeah. Like you guys need

if you saw my neighbor, you can understand. Hopefully he's not watching. Um I had a couple questions too. Once I'm uh working on a project in Aspen was really close to the property line and they made us use exterior sprinklers so that if the fire came the outside of the house be washed in water. Is that something that we saw on the radar? the I can kind of defer to a building official because that really is how buildings are are required to be set back from each other and then the components that are on the on the exterior of their structure to prevent that fire spread. Right. So yeah, structures that kind of don't meet those requirements have to have additional protection.

It's a retrofit solution then. Yeah, it sounds like building code states that from the building line to your property should have at least five feet the minimum from each property. If you go closer than that, then you have to use uh fire rated materials, uh no bands, you know, sort of things. For that, what you said, you know, exterior fire, that will work fine, too.

So, that's an option. Um, so Trent, one thing you had mentioned that I am a little confused on is like should it be the same rule that applies across the board, but we're looking at like level one and then medium and high which is level two that's not same across the board but two different categories of regulation. Yeah. So I I I would be inclined based on what I've heard from other folks in the state is that we apply the level two across Yes. So that's

and again, you know, I think the devil's in the details about what those materials require. I mean, when you're talking about protecting sophets, you're going from a half inch to a quarter inch. Not much difference there. You're already applying class A roofing materials today. Can't have a deck. That is going to be where it's going to get more technical would be a wood deck versus a

a track deck or some other material that is not say rated. Now you can and and I I actually have a friend that's in the industry, you know, their company is is trying to go ahead and get ahead of this so that they can apply treatments to wood so that it can have a class A rating. Yeah. You know, and people have been doing that for a while, too. Like, you know, like for she for shake shing warm roots, you know, it's like it's a pressuret treated to a certain rate for a certain period of time. Usually, it's the life of that product.

So, I'm wondering if the increase in building expense will have an offset as followup to to Joyy's question. Will it offset by insurance cost, you know, or is it just sort of what we have to do these days? That's what that's the billion dollar question. And I think that, you know, that's Part of the discussions being had state level is that you know what can we do as a state to reduce those rates because area ones are going up and the insurance company is really kind of the holds the cards in that discussion. Yeah. And and in many cases even be insurable because so many areas are they're dropping coverage I know and that's really scary.

So that's especially in a rural area like this. Um, and I was wondering, you said it's just habitable structures, so not like utility structures, but if we've got utility structures that are necessary infrastructure, why would we also not to apply this these regulations to those like a communications building or electric substation? I think so. I think what they they they use the word occupiable, right? So, I was going to say most everyone that you mentioned is an occupiable structure. storage treatment plant receives a significant amount of occupancy telecommunications building now that maybe

but like the chlorine tank on the hill that we were so worried about in 2002 that's a utility and it's not occupiable and that's a big deal if that catches up fire so should we not apply those regulations to a utility structure again that's I think at at a local level right we we deal with the individual parcel right and we we look at the risk involved Um and this this code is is trying to address like the bigger picture and trying to have a a standard. Yeah. But again, you know, the water treatment plant that's occupied where the chlorine um is good. So I was thinking about the one up on the hill that is

occupied. Okay. Yeah, that's good. Okay. I was thinking about that carbon fiber station, that lift thing that we looked at. I mean that that's probably not a very much of a risk anyhow. Yeah. Below crown mostly. It was like a shed looking thing. It's like a booster. Yeah. Well, I suppose a lot of those utilities would be run by people who want to make make sure that the fire doesn't get them like you know the city or you know the electric company. Well, and you know the utility companies are going through this as well like Excel you know their project here in town. All of that is is intended for hardening of those lines. Also raising the height and making the structure less support

not possible. So they're mandated as well. Do you foresee the state giving any incentives for people to retrofit their buildings if they don't meet the 500 foot or 25% threshold and there's probably not any funding for that. Historic structures for example. Yeah, there is an exception for historic structures in chapter one. Um I think just with the the budget constraints at the state level, I I don't foresee that happening. Um they they they are trying to do a wait and see game right now in terms of staffing to to help some of these municipalities that don't have, you know, a building department, right, to assist them. So

yeah, we'll wait and see. They're going to need help from us. Yeah. I noticed that there's quite a few vacancies on that board. Yeah, there is a lot of turnover. Um I I feel like they're going to have a lot of work in the next couple months, especially this this first cycle where you have every municipality that's going to be trying to have their difference and their appeal. Are you proposing any local amendments or you adopt?

We feel we should adopt the model code here at the city level. Um I don't I don't see why we why we shouldn't because I get the risk we've I don't know how you would apply a standard if you're modeling unmapped with no requirements everything else sorry to be knee deep in this All right. Yeah. I guess the amendment that will be proposed is that the class two be applied to

so it wouldn't amend the map say just the state and you still um another concern I know is that the setbacks you know you know like the tool should be references setback it's exempt that's only from structures not property lines property lines accounts for in this code property boundaries. Um, so I would look at that like if I put one of those on my property line, it would be fine and that would be a violation of the dimensional standards for that.

You're on you would never do because you're very smart. Yeah. You could easily you can't control what neighbor's going to do with that property. That could be an occupiable structure in the future within 50 feet or 10 feet of that structure of that shed or exempt structure. Well, sheds of a certain size don't require permit. So, you might have no idea. This would require permit for any shed. And then and then also when when you sell things and the LC is done, then you have to move them. I know I've had to move several that within the distances. Yeah, I mean you're going to get caught eventually, but you also don't want to be Well, I mean, there's some properties way out there in enforcement might be troublesome unless it's a new building.

It really is. This is on on CEO, right? There's there's nothing that says that we got to come in after a couple years and make sure that he's still doing it. It's on the homeowner cruise around like a deck or a shed, you know. It's true though. Yeah, that happens a lot. That's

Well, I mean, people can skirt the code. I mean, that's So, so I have a question on the code. So, um, so is is is this something that would come because normally we, you know, this is a body that would look at code. So, but is this a, you know, this is from the state. It's kind of a tops down code. I mean, it seems to me like like it's a mandated code and it's not something that that we would see. I mean that this that was kind of my question right up front that this is this is really our our one time we're going to see this knowing here's what's going to happen and then it's just going to be and then it's when is the code but April April

in April the 26 right so we don't even we don't even vote on the like text change even if there's landscaping right it's just adopted I mean we might hear about city council that's good but it's a but yeah no I think it's a I mean first of I think Yeah, I think this is an awesome thing. But I mean, but is that is that true? I mean, we wouldn't see anything on the code. This is this is kind of what we're hearing. This is what it is. It's a tops down thing, which is Yeah. No, I mean, the intent of this meeting was to one, inform you all about it. And two, hear those questions, right? Because hearing these questions helps us prepare for presenting this to council and to for potential pitfalls. If there is a change to landscape code, we're going to see it because it's coaching.

That piece could So, we've got someone at the staff level making sure all of our current codes don't conflict with this new code. Yes. But it's still kind of a tops down thing. Yeah. I mean, but it's not like we're going No, we disagree. I mean, we don't have No, exactly. That's what the point is. You can talk about it. Last question.

So, the next one I have is that um you know, I think it's great, you know, but you know what? So what percentage of our structures we have in town 10,000 I'll make up the number and and we get you know 10 new ones a year and you know this is a this is a huge thing I mean I'm you and I live on we're fringe fringe house people you know BLM land next to mine and then city open space and uh

oh you me too are you the same probably others but anyways So I guess what my question is and it's it's really not even a question more of a request because you know I think figuring out how do we not just do people uh requesting to get inspections and I know I I live up above walls at the end if there's a culde-sac and I don't know maybe three or four years ago

um there's the fire guys were there and they were just they're trying to figure out how do we evacuate I said hey you mind coming to look in my house and you you know, and they it was great. You know, they kind of came up and did some stuff and, you know, some of the things I need to work on my five foot setback from my dwell. I mean, I have things I need to do, but I guess my point is that that I I think that we should put a program in. Maybe it takes two years or whatever the time is to to go through systematically. it seems like through the town and you know you and maybe you recruit homeowners or something to be to be part of your people but um you know I mean you know I mean River Oak subdivision you know that's that's the name we have no HOA fee you know it's not like any big thing but but still people are very concerned and it's um it's something that all of us are excited to see this but how do we make it be for this stuff and even stuff in town you know What was it? The the Marshall fire, you know, who ever thought that would happen in the middle

of a place? But um anyway, I'm just kind of tossing out that that I mean I get it's awesome that you know for and it's and it's almost not that it's easy, but it's a lot easier to do that than it is for someone that has an 1890s house, you know, in town versus you versus you're on the fringe, you know. Yeah. I think getting the word out and letting people know that the program exists and having education about that and then also making people aware that they're not going to be penalized, right? This is a voluntary thing. Well, I'm just saying it would be good to have an audit that's that's more of a systematic audit versus I raise my hand. Yeah.

And I mean, you know, because I don't think there's any penalization. You know, you're not because I mean this is what you have. I'm not saying you're going out to get people in trouble, but at the same time, Everyone needs to be aware whether they raise their hand or not. Here's the things that you need to be doing. I mean, you know, the the five foot thing that 90% of our houses, maybe more are, you know, don't don't make that rule. And that's a pretty simple thing to do. It could save you money and then the realtors won't slap you when you're trying to sell your house. That looks so crap. But but I mean, I think, you know, I think that's a any

No, I I agree with you. I know we've had a neighborhood ambassador program for a couple years that we try and find some neighbor, you know, different neighbors to try and focus on, but it it is a changing of the mindset, right? And hopefully with some of the these newer builds, people can look at it and say, "Hey, that five foot setback doesn't look horrible, right? That you can still create an appealing setback that you know is still a home to you." But little question on that. Is the five foot setback is that the most restrictive or is that the least restrictive?

So if you look at in in class two they really don't want you to plant anything in in that 5 foot setback but at class one again which we're looking at in town here mostly as well. It's they do allow some of that like drought resistant natural um I'm not a right. So there is a list um again it's through through through these the professionals that that deal with this stuff every day right and they they have lists of of plants that you can put out there that

I guess I guess going back to what Trent was saying though it sounded like you were not going to do class one you were going to be more restrictive than that is that correct so then how does that affect I don't know about being more restrictive my intent is to be more simple um right application of these standards. You know, I I it's hard enough to get these messages across to people. I don't want to at the same time try to teach them two separate standards that apply based on their so for sure. But then I guess how does that how does that apply to the landscaping? Because I would think the landscaping would be a non-combustible zone 5T from the structure.

Okay. Okay. So that is the the class two bit. Yes. Okay. And that's that's you know and when these zones have been implemented over two plus decades you know that's been standard since the start that's not you know it's not new in terms of defensible space. But does this mean that you build a brand new house and you can't have a wood entry door on it? No. A wood entry door could still be a class A rating. You know just like just like a you know windows temp you know tempered glass windows are are class A. have those.

Well, right, but usually you don't need a tempered glass. And if your whole house has to be tempered glass, that's significant. This only requires later. Sorry, I was sort of just, you know, weighing what's best whether you have all three classes just covered or have two different categories. And I know it's probably staff and the amount of work it would takes. Yeah. I don't know about the the door specifically certain hour rated doors, but there could certainly still be wood, Victor. Right. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Every front door or garage door has to be one hour rated solid doors. I mean, it's exterior windows don't usually have to

Well, would an aluminum clad window be a fire resistant window? I think the ones we got right now, it is fire rated. Yeah, because double plane and everything doesn't have to be tempered, right? Wire rated. So, I was just hoping it didn't have that metal grid. No, those are really expensive. You know, how much is it going to cost extra to add these amenities to res? But there's not a choice. I don't think there's three levels. I think there's really just two classes, right? I was fighting for two levels. One I think what you're talking about this map to simplify it.

Yeah. And then and then get it out to people. I mean so people but that map shows that Glenwood is mostly orange and right which is class two. I think that's yellow we're looking at. Yeah. Oh with the orange. Yeah. Blue is the that's not red and yellow. That's red and orange. Red and orange. And if you're color blind, you're screwed. So you can't even look at that thing. When I keep thinking what you just said is like how much of this is really going to change what we're already doing. Yeah. Because so much of it is maybe already built into the way Yeah. we operate.

Yeah. It's it's it's minimal impact to construction and additions. I mean, you know, we are starting to see a lot more and more additions as people try to reuse their properties, but it's 500 square feet more. It's only applicable to that specific change. I would say just kind of go off the chairman said there about I can't can't remember her name. I'm spacing it, but I had the firewise. She came out this summer and walked my property and wrote up a report and um gave me a list of contractors and told me about the grant program and things like that. But I think maybe as we talk about daylighting and putting this out there for the public, we also highlight those other relevant programs of the community to be aware of.

Yeah,

I think that I think that's really important because I think you know we I I think we do we do really good even though people give us I'm saying us the city sometimes crap about communication but I think we communicate very many different ways that are good with email with the you know, all these different ways. And I, you know, I think that you can't communicate it enough. I mean, I think everyone's very concerned and I, you know, I liked when you talked about um how it's interrelating with with, you know, emergency evac. And I agree, this is one part of it. And um but shoot, it's a big concern. I mean, I there's um I've known some people that that have moved here because they're afraid of the wildfire and they, you know, they left and they're long-term people, but they're afraid. And so, I I think it's I don't know. It's It's great. It's great work.

Thank you very much for trying to do it and get it going and hopefully hopefully we'll listen. Maybe the city. Yeah. There's a lot of things. Yeah, it'll definitely need to be a lot of outreach and education on this piece. It'd be cool to do like something like what you guys were saying, YouTube it, chuck it in YouTube, like walking someone's property,

helping someone out if they were willing to be a part of it and just really showing the positive side of it as opposed to, you know, the scary side of it. I do have experience working with with Robin and uh I think he was the last fire marshal to come up with a mitigation plan out of Cardiff. You know, we wrote records and we walked to the site and it was it was really valuable. Yeah, we didn't get the grant to do that, but it was a lot of good input. I I really like that idea. Publish a video. Yeah. And you guys can cover my That's a great idea. you'll like I'll have like the smiley face, you know, like when they just

There's a lot of folk that that really think this is going to drastically change their image of the mountains and and where they live. And I don't think it does, right? It it just improves where they live and it and it also helps the wildlife honestly. I mean, the front right now is they're Excel has already warned everybody. shutting down power and you know trees are going to be falling and the wind and fire danger and drought. So I think this is their time. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. Any other questions for Robin or Victor while we've got him here?

John, any other pitfalls to be concerned about? Yeah, John doesn't address slope at all. So like to modify your space based on slope. Oh the thing refers to it like it's a flat ground when you look at the image but if you look at the slope and how the slope affects you space but that's so that would be something that would be enforced like if you had a a big hillside next year. It's a consideration slow, right?

The state doesn't think that's important. Yeah. The zones were developed based on slope. Okay. It's included in the mapping, not necessarily in the applicability of of your homes. What John's

got it. So, so if if if I wanted to kind of pull something together for my neighborhood, which is Riverview, Oakway, Walls, you know, and and and kind of get a I mean, we do community parties and we do we do all this kind of stuff and and pull people together at someone's house and and do like a presentation or something. Maybe it's during the day and get a beer. You could come in

neighborhood. No, but I'm but I'm serious. Everyone I know I know in my neighborhood people are very concerned and you're talking about the slope. We have a huge ravine right behind where my friends runs up the whole way. You know, Maryanne, you know, all these people are right on there and it's um but anyway, I mean is that something that that that that people could do? I mean that we could do. Yeah, reach out to the firef. We are always willing to come out and give presentations and anything that's needed. Yes, she's amazing. Call Mina. Call Mina. Great. Thank you very much. Yeah, thanks Robin. Thank you, Victor. Thank you.

Stop sharing. Oh, yeah.

I'd like to do I think I try and have party. Well, but we have performers. You could you could have a big bonfire. Solstice. We could do solstice. We could have a fire. Yeah. You can't do that where the fire said it was okay. Oh, don't you think Greg that would be good? Yeah. Are you guys neighbors? Right down the same other ends of the street, but it's like people get together. Red Mountain area. Yeah. Yeah, that's a

which is a whole interesting indefensible. I am I lived in a beautiful place that burned down in the last picture. I already have everything not in my house. Okay. Welcome to you. Ready? I'm ready to go. And okay, on to another major obstacle and difficulty. Unsolvable. Yeah, another unsolvable issue.

Not unsolvable. We just make problems. Yeah. To the positive. One step forward, three steps back.

No. Um, but so this is a work session again on housing and it's going to be like it was last time where it's kind of pre forum. Um, so I wanted to start by uh going over where we were last time, some of the conclusions and thoughts that you all had and then we're going to get those phones out again to do some of that same midyear voting. So, our last our work session last month, uh, I asked you guys about zoning changes and just personally how you guys felt about some of the things that we recommended and you guys came up with a ranked list. So, density bonuses came out top. So, we're going to talk about that tonight. Uh but also on the list was allowing duplexes in more places, commercial to residential conversions, hotel conversions to housing. And then we did kind of a funding exercise where you had $100,000 and asked how you would spend it on what kind of programs, what kind of work. Um interestingly, employer based rental assistance came out on top. Um and then mobile home park preservation was up there. Regional work through the housing coalition. Um, and then we were tied for down payment assistance incentives to convert short-term rentals to long-term rentals. Again, his eyes. Um, and then rounding it out was a housing navigator staff position and tenants rights education. We also talked about what you guys would want to see in the future. Um, topics to explore, tiny homes, interestingly was there and ADUs. Those are two related items. So, we're going to talk about those tonight. incentives for employee housing, long-term camping areas, single stair reform, reducing costs for ADUs in local development, uh building code changes, more or less housing unit process, short-term rentals, and inclusion areas. So, we're going to do some polls tonight. We're going to talk about density bonuses, tiny homes and ADUs, and then potential educational outreach. Uh before we get too far into this though, I wanted to kind of define some

terms so that we're all we know what we're talking about with these things. With tiny homes, um if someone says that tiny homes aren't allowed in Glenwood, that's not really true. Usually what tiny homes means when people talk about it, um is homes that are pretty small. A lot of times they mean not on permanent foundation. So that would be one way that that's true is if it's a home that needs to be on permanent foundation for us. But we have no minimum size for for homes. Uh the building code has some really bare minimums that that it does need. 120 square feet for a bedroom, that's two people or 70 square feet for a bedroom with one person. Uh like six square feet for showers. So these are these are pretty minimal requirements. Um so if you want to build a home and then you want it to be really small and call it a tiny home, it's great. Just needs to be on the foundation to utilities. Um, some of the issues that we can run into sometimes, and these are going to be building code issues. The building official here are as I'm sure you all know, tiny homes, they it's really important to use space efficiently. So, they almost always have lofts. So, there are rules about how much headroom you have to have and it counts towards certain things. Uh, and then another thing that that is important and is a zoning thing is minimum lot sizes. So I think a lot of times when people talk about tiny home communities like there are in Silts, they're talking about the not only the homes being small but also close to each other. And so that either is kind of a mobile home park situation or we're talking about small subdivisions, smaller than we generally allow in the city. Um in sil I tried to look it up. I think those those lots are 2500 square feet. So that's equivalent to one town site lot here in our downtown. uh but that is smaller than wheel out for someone to create today. So that is a barrier that that's what the goal is.

So we do allow manufactured homes not on foundations but that's because it's in a zone that permisses um mobile home parks. Is that correct? Well those mobile homes are on foundations or they're at least attached permanent to ground. Yeah. usually usually strapped down but not strapped down but not found purged to a um and most of the zone districts that we have where they're permitted it's via a special use permit as a wall park

so I guess kind of think about Woody Creek and how they're kind of integrating some of those lots um and as we talk about preserving some of these mobile home parks ownership and things like that I guess um are we looking that kind of live in the same San Bernat saying tiny home. People want to go in there and develop their lot in those parts or is this a different type of approach that we're taking for people in those parts?

Well, people people use the the term tiny home in all kinds of ways. So, I don't think there's any kind of real standard. So, when when I'm talking about tiny homes, I'm trying to refer to it generally. Um, like I said, we don't really regulate the size of a home. We build a home almost as small as we want it to. Um but then those lot questions that that is control. So as you look at sorry no I guess knowing our existing lots in Glenwood are impediments in place that would prevent the what we see going on creek and elsewhere with kind of the the kind of integration of these updated um structures and those

know about some resident occupied communities up there but what are you referring to? So like if you go like right by the tavern, you know, you see some some new development there, you know, some new models coming in there um replacing existing that was park though, wasn't it? It's called right there by the tavern. So a smuggler right cool. Yeah, it's kind of what I'm going at here because we got a couple of those instances in Glennwoods now. So we got perhaps a lot ownership opportunity. So there in two is also opportunity to develop that lot in that kind of context as

well parks they they usually don't have lot lines that can be there's usually one owner um but in Lake Creek that's a resident owned community as far that I understand now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um and then we have one that's recently become resident owned community. That one already did have um their own lots of lots. So that was unusual for for parks. Um, usually it's it's one owner as a playable operator, but what we've seen, not not per se, I mean, you could always propose a PUB of tiny house that have reduced lot sizes so that it can be a purchase of of real property associated with that. I mean, that would be like Carter Glenn, I would say.

Yeah. Where you have that's that's PUB, right? And then Yeah. the that the the homes, they're single family homes, but they're boom boom boom boom boom right on top of each other. But I'm guessing that was done via PE. We don't have a zone district with a lot size of 2500 square feet. That's what the original town says town. Cool. And I'm not not trying to get too tangential, like I'm so contextual as we're seeing these convergence happening with these properties and the opportunity for ownership um taking out a lot to ownership. We've got that potential kind of upper mobility as far as investment by that owner owner.

I don't I don't mind getting into the details about that either. Um the way it usually works when they become resident owned communities is they still do pay lots but the lot rent is set by the court. So they they set the the rents according to just what their expenses are and reserves and they have a vested interest to keep them low. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas an investor does not. And I think that was my point is that that we do allow um homes on wheels, but they're just in mobile home parks, not in not on somebody's property. It's like it's zoned for a mobile home park. So, we allow homes on there.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Which is like a tiny or an RV in my yard that's living, which is not allowed, right? at River Meadows where you're talking I just don't bel because they have permanent aris but then they have a small section I think that they have to be on wheels because because they're they're in like a flood plane probably so if the river comes up no det is but anyway we're we're in the weeds yeah we're in the weeds

moving along moving along I I think the point that um that Watkins is trying to get across here is that we might want to consider developing a zone with a smaller bot size that would allow for Yes. or some sort of incentives in existing zone districts that would allow for because you don't want to only limit the possibility per se.

So density bonuses, we can talk about that too. you guys were here in 2023, but for those who weren't, uh, we did talk about density bonuses. Y'all made a recommendation, city council, that we make some changes to them. We can get into the weeds there, too. But generally, there are kind of three buckets. There are incentives uh for providing greater affordability to tenants. And there was some projects that were within 500 square feet of transit stop and incentives were for sale and all of those got shot down

a long time back then. I remember that day that was council right that was right after we did a variance. I recall but I mean we did we had mega conversation. Yep. neighbors were turned against me. Exactly. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Um, a few other things wrapping up from last time. There are some questions um that needed some answers. Someone asked how many dealership units we have in town. We've got we've got 40 voluntary units and voluntary program 52 now. The 52 that we're required to be created. Those have requirements. Um, someone about the home ownership rental split in town. Um in 2020 when we had the best data because that was single census was about 5149 51% homeowners more homeowners than renters. Um and in 2023 we have some data that's maybe it's 40 53% renters 47% owners but that comes with the deal error. So you can probably think of it as there's there's probably slightly more renters It's about 50.

Yeah. Yeah. Someone also asked about the West Mountain Regional Housing Coalition. We can just call it housing coalition be known. Uh the service area for that is all in. So with Eagle, Eagle is a member, but they have their own programs through Eagle County. So that's their own. Yeah. They don't they don't do the deeds program in that part of the county, but they have a ton of money because of Yeah, I've seen some other programs. They don't seem to be successful. Yeah, my boss just got So, would everyone mind bringing your phones off?

I feel like you might have I can bring my uh oh small team for joining that sign up. No. Says sign up. Open Q&A. Oh, okay.

Is everyone connected though? Yeah. Okay. Question number one. Is it showing on your phones? Not yet. I still have to sign up. I don't want to sign. It worked fine last time. Not working. Mine says open Q&A. No. Do you have to be a presenter? No. Just Okay, I see it. Okay, I click start presentation. We're very interactive group. Yeah, keep us quiet. Words I don't want to start. Definitely not done fair.

Okay. What should Lola be doing with tiny homes and assuming they want any changes and if you don't disagree? So these are several ideas and we want to we want you to rate each one to five. being some disagree that you should do that day. What kind of breaker scale is this? This is the sliding scale.

What are pre-approved models? Like model homes, modulars, designs already pre-approved accessories. So, concept you're having. Yes. Yeah. Nobody needs a designer anymore. This might not be the prettiest joint. Yeah. Like that one and like that be one that would be easily approved.

Okay. So I must have missed. So what is the preapproval? Template pre-esigned. This design is already approved. Yeah, like this is going to pass. You do all these four things. Pete, you're the last one. Download the plan from the city's website. You still have to pay somebody to um depending how you do it, but probably

um Okay, I see it looks like seven people responded. So coming in top is allow smaller lots. Okay, that relates to what we were just talking about. I also see allow ADUs to be subdivided for primary home. Very interesting. Allow RVUs to use primary home. I'll be honest, I didn't understand that one. Which one? That's like what Carolyn has. She lives no to separ from the primary home. I think it's a great idea. It's like it so you could just sell your ADU right subdivide your lot and then they'll have the land on the ADU. Not current. I think we talk about the missing to your home. Not always,

but it could be like a duplex. But regardless, I think that that it's just an idea. We don't have to solve it out tonight. Well, let's just have it be an idea out there because there's lots of I'm just going to make one comment because y'all are commenting too. I just think it's it's an interesting concept because I think of the Colorado defects law um eliminates that that entry level housing and so if you were able to do that it would provide that in a different unique way. So there you go. I've said my piece. I'm with you but I think we need to know. Yes. Move along. move to smaller lot sizes.

Okay, let's keep going. Talked about what density bonuses are. What they do is to incentivize something that we want. So, I think we approached this question. That's what we're trying to do here is what you want. So, development in certain neighborhoods. Are we saying only specific areas? What does that mean? Yeah. So, like when should we create Disney bonuses where c places would like to do certain things or or the alternative would be everywhere or nowhere

or an alternative could be certain kinds of places. So it's not on map. It's like place meets these kind of criteria. Okay. So similar to the proximity to transit stuff or you know are there neighborhoods are there areas of town where we should do this or are there locations adjacent to certain infrastructure or transportation? I have all sorts of comments on that but I'm not going to say anything. That just sounds that just sounds like discriminatory zoning to me. Okay. specific reser

resial types of developments that could mean anything right so the next question I'm gonna ask what do you mean by that specific is there do you want to incentivize something I think I'm having a hard time with the way these questions are posed ask ask a clarifying I'm confused about the third one. What should bonus density bonuses incentivize specific non-residential? So, do you want to incentivize?

So, we're talking about density bosses for not only residential but for commercial uses, non-residential. You trying to incentivize liess specific types but not nonresidential so so I mean they're they're extremely open-ended questions I mean I mean if you say you I mean I'm just thinking in my similar way is so specific residential types of development I mean you could say that that's kind of minimizing dup or whatever but so but if we say yes it doesn't it's just like a generic so that comes I think Next question.

Are we incentivizing the stuff? Yeah.

Boomer. I'm a boomer, too, tonight. I can guess what that means. You know it. Are you done? You just lived your You're getting sass tonight. Bring it on. He's out in the captain's chair. So, we feel like affordable housing coming in number one. It looks like also development near transit stops. um less popular notific.

All right. So, tell me what you really think. Uh oh. Oh god. Wait. What's opened? If there's something that you want to incentivize, do that. And then we're gonna have opportunity to vote on what to do. I don't know that we're creative enough to think of things that you didn't bring up. That was pretty comprehensive.

No, we said residential development. So, do you want to incentivize for sale units? You want threelexes, five I mean, you mentioned grocery store. It seems like collectively as a community could have a board that assesses what we need that are the non-residential uses and come up with a 10-year plan of like non-residential uh services we would like to incentivize. But that fell very low on our on our voting there. So

no Carol there. Okay. So now um if you would like to vote on these you actually have two votes. You can vote

to get to vote for two. Yeah. I wonder who that is to our pres. I'm sorry.

You can go through the same developments in affordable housing for sale. Next, um, one of the categories we put for mineral educational campaign, I saw it as one of the unifying things of some of the stuff we talked about. Um, so what what do you think the public needs to know about housing that doesn't If there were some kind of educational campaign for one that would be what should we do?

What's PPP? Public private partnerships. What should they know? Probably more than they know now. I think you know think think about it in terms of um you know the complaints that you hear from folks. Yeah. I mean that's the thing what understand,

right? Right. What what what are those complaints? What are what are the things that they do not understand that we should really try to to push? At our last month's meeting, um you know, one of the things that we talked about was the the need to get the the issue across to the public. Are they complains about the development town or complain about some of the initiatives that you're trying to bring forth? Well, I think part of it is that one, they don't understand the dire the dire nature of the situation, right? Or the benefits it brings to the community by taking actual cars off the road, you know, and well, and I think I think a lot of times the only time we educate is when there's a project

and then and then the city can't educate because they can't play in the game. So, I mean, to me it seems like we need to do it outside of a specific project. What do we what is regionalism where we we regionalism is is working with other other governments in the valley um working through the housing coalition potentially spending money outside of the city. I think it's also to me it's also um people thinking it's only Aspen's problem. They need to be paying for everything. It's all of our problem. That I think that's a to me that's regionalism thing. That's

a lot of people that I know get real pissed off. How come I'm asking that they should be doing all of this for Well, another piece that I see

What were you saying? Um, sorry. say the barcode and um you know a lot of our dean restrictions require that you work within city or within this area code. Well, you know a million dollars goes further in white in city springs. Maybe if the city as an employer, maybe that million dollars if it was spent specifically for employers or employees of the city is better spent in Rifle where someone wants to live in a single family home, not a multif family apartment situation.

Currently, our de restriction program is not allow for. But I think it's like planning in general, um, housing being, you know, a piece of that. I really think to answer all these questions that affect all of these communities, we need to be thinking more regionally and not just about the city springs. We're trying to blame it on aspen be working with an aspen to figure out and we've been a huge benefactor of that idea with the purchase of our mobile home parks. That money was very well spent that we put into West Mountain Housing Coalition.

So what what is the intention of that? um keeping the money in Glumwood because like Aspen you can purchase a house here and it just stays with the program. The deed restriction runs with the program. So why well I think initially it's that we want to help our workforce first. Yeah. which I I get that and we do what we do want to make sure that we're helping work force that we give folks a place to live in town to live or to work there who work in town

but if they're already working here and like you just said they probably want to live in a home not like a little condo. So if you guys are going to raise homes to sell then why not yeah let them live right you said I would just add that these don't get start right you have to be here to know about and once you're established right you don't want let's say you're working in the city you have your community rightful for two years. Let's say a deed unit comes up in Springs. You're going to move to one or you going to stay right?

If it's a house and it can name probably 10 people right now who would do that. You guys have an idea of the percentage of city staff who has to live further down valley. City staff specifically. Yeah. significant pass. Is that what you said? Significant. So if a priority was to retain some of these employees and they you know to that point they already have a community established and still Newcastle. I don't think we want to hamstring the city. Yeah.

And we want people to go for it like you said. So then what does it take to change that? Yeah. Except their tax dollars are going to be spent elsewhere. Not in our changes to our housing guidelines. City council approve.

Yeah. But if you have less turnover staff and someone's here and you can have a family and your kids can be in school, you know, all of that stuff and they're staying here. I mean, I know lots of people that work here that live in Newcastle and and they stay here because they're they're in the they're in the valley. I mean, whe you know, however you define the valley, but it's I think that's a great topic though. It's good. All right, the next question.

Yeah, moving along. Whoops. Um, I think this is the last open. Is there anything else that come out last time? I think I voted on every single thing. I didn't see the responses. Yeah. What were the responses? The number the top one was taking away motion and then

John these people weren't here to hear John last time. Jim said say your point that you said last time about renters. I think that was good. How do you remember? I think no the point was that that that u you know we talk about for sale units is like a big thing and and but a lot of people renting is a big deal. I mean that's how they can be here. I guess that was one thing I was I'd be very and it's 5050. I mean you said that was some data you gave us at the front. Some people like to rent. They don't want people like they don't want things like that. East renting is a thing. That's like a thing.

Well, John John did it I think you did it justice at our meeting last month. Basically, John, I remember what you said is that you didn't have the opportunity to live in our community yet, right, for renting and that you have lived here how many years? Four years now. Four years. And you feel like this is your home. You're obviously a part of this serve on commission. Yeah. He does own his own. He does own a home. Want to live in a but more towards the the form question of single family

versus about multif family specific which today we're see I think because of the Colorado defects law. Well, well, but I think I mean I I I thought one of your points was that was that was was that you know we tend to talk a lot about for sale about all of the you know wanting to have home ownership but a lot of people I mean to to the point is that they're good you know renting is good and hey we need to make sure that it doesn't get brushed under the table. I think that's got

I don't think that I mean I think that the majority of what we're seeing is rental units being built. I think we're not seeing as many totally which is why we've been plugging on it is because there's a lot of rental units going in. Yeah. Right. The majority of them are probably halfway there. Just kidding. Um I would be interested in what that number has how that number has changed over time. Is that is it could you get that from the census when it's 2020? Yeah. Like going back to 1950s what's been the change in ownership versus very interesting.

Yeah. I mean, we hear those numbers all the time where you're just like we need 10,000 homes still or, you know, like we need this many units in order for the people in our community to sustain and live here, you know, like I don't think anybody else hears those numbers. I think they think they I think a lot of people think it's BS. Yeah, that's because you hear exactly what you're saying. The numbers seem just like where do these numbers come from? Yeah. Where do they come from? Like having some sort of explanation. I like that one thing where you just asked like a couple questions about like an ambassador or something. I mean, I know this seems silly, but it really doesn't in a lot of ways. Put that in here. No,

I mean, Brianna does a lot of that work, right? She kind of gets is kind of the voice of the city and gets creative information out. She's great. Yeah, I have heard that. I mean, a property manager in our office says she's having a hard time filling her rentals. And I think that's seasonal, but also like and I've seen even some of my homeowners um who own property that are renting are going a couple months now on the market without getting filled. They probably ask too much. They Well, they they've been probably market rent, you know, maybe they want to buy. So it's like all supply and demand.

That's what we need. Carol's point I think though too is there is a supply and demand. But you can't charge as much for rent as you could last year. Y because there's more units which is which we've talked about that. I asked if we were seeing rates going down because we have not really it doesn't happen right away. Yeah. There's some good stuff. Does anyone have anything else you want to tap in? Do we need a vote on these? Do you guys want to How many?

Yeah. Utilities. I know there's one down at like 900 block of lake. I see those people there two weeks a year. I mean, I guess that's their right. But we've got this housing program. I'm like, is that Usually that does show up in census data. Yeah. Yeah. So that's it's a low number. Yeah. Remember the same. So that's I mean Oh, absolutely. Did we talk about incentivizing those guys? they probably won't be incentivizable because they have enough money to live here.

One of the one of the popular solutions to that problem these days is tax. So I don't think that's a good solution for us here as we have but that's that's what that tries to do is discourage people from doing it and if you want to do vegetar You're not here. You won't be here to object.

Hey. Um, so that's all here I have for you guys. We can kind of go into like more questions and discussion guys have. I think that this was a lot better than last time and and and and I don't mean that in a bad way. I think last time we was kind of it was kind of wide open and I think you did a good job, Watkins, of focusing it down to what came out of there from last time for at least I don't I don't know what other people think that were here last time, but

I thought it was more focused. What we like to do it's on people's minds that works out is is put this in something a little bit more coherent and concrete proposals you can actually send to city council yeah we're just exploring that that's what we're working toward right you're taking this information because we I mean it well it's true it's been going you know like it has been evolving at at le the last four years that I've been on. Well, I kind of want to know what the housing board thinks about these questions. Yeah. Yeah. Should we have a face to face with them? They were asking the same thing.

Yeah. Well, east side, west side

you mean so that you can have so that you can use a ladder in your house. Okay. Well, so we might allow that. You know, you have to we have to look into the specifics, but I mean foundation, right? But then clearance and a lad's an appendix I think to the building code that deals with tiny homes. Yeah. So that's part of our regulations. I had a question. A2. Yeah, but it has to be smaller than 500 ft or else you're going to trigger a whole bunch of electron.

It's going to be an occupied structure. Yeah. I I have a question. How um how much success are we having with the the hotel conversions? And do we know how many we have that are being used as long-term rentals? And have we heard any sort of data back on whether that's been successful? Well, we had two hotels that were converted and

yeah, the two. So, one on Highway Six and I think it's they're they're occupied as far as I know most of them most of the time. Um, so that seems like a success. Um, there are more opportunities for hotels to do that. On Highway Six, as you guys know, there are several kind of motel that could be candidates for this kind of thing. They have probably Do we lose out?

Cities live die by sales tax. They're not paying sales tax if they're changed to residential and then we're hitting the bottom line as the city's losing money on those. Um Trent, do you know? My understanding is that short-term hotel stays don't pay sales tax. They're not commercial. They become resial use. They pay some sales and status. Yeah. So in that case is a net gain. Pat, you you are right. Um and we have situation we have situations where it's already occurring. Yeah. I mean

where cities live and die by sales tax. We're losing sales tax every time we lose one of those hotels. So I mean hotels are coming in but res I think a another good project that's good one to sell what was with loft three or something is that the one that that was bought

that was a I mean that that's kind of like the steamboat thing a little bit you know of buying an existing apartment place and then turning it into more of an affordable thing. I mean, it's it's it's assume that was just to avoid the uh you know where they only you're responsible for something that breaks down after it's lasted five years. Well, she you built it, you run it as an apartment for the first five years, then you're no longer responsible, then you sell it off. Yeah. But but but it but it got sold off to for for a lower Yes. Right. So, I mean, I'm saying it was an affordable project. I mean, that's what was good about that versus just selling offer,

you know, you keep running that rent high and then you can't rent them. Yeah. That was less than five years. They actually purchased insurance to cover. Yeah. They had to It was like a $2 million policy or something was was I mean that's what I heard back in the day when that defect everybody said, "Well, they'll just build apartments, wait it out." But that's a lot of people so affected. Yeah, that's right. Do we have lodging tax here? Okay. Affordable housing fund. That's good. 2.5

question. So, so in those hotel conversions, do we have an affordable housing piece that gets rolled into that? Yes. So, you're Yeah. So, you're losing two and a half% towards that. kidding. Good. I think it's good. I do too. Yeah. Are there more coming up on approaching the city? There is one that is under construction or seem to be under construction. We've had a conversation. Okay. Is that one by Meadows? Yeah.

We've had a conversation about a conversion of a building downtown to a boutique hotel. Oh, the western. No, that was quick.

Watkins and I guess just an ask kind of a point of order thing. Um, because a couple of those issues, you know, work really hard as a as a board as commissioned the power forward recommendation to council and a couple of those or at least one of those was brought to us for discussion based on uh counselor comment at the end of the meeting through exhaustive work only to have that even be entertained for a motion at the next council meeting. Um, so that was very frustrating. And so my ask is as you present this to council, if they do want to come back with us something to work on, that it' be done on motion. That would be really snow. We have the the majority of the board of council asking us to work on any particular specific issue to to house,

right? They should do the menty thing, too. Yeah. I mean, I do agree with that. I I mean, we need you to power through and based on just one person and then it fell flat. Yeah. One one other question I would just ask is it seemed like before we go to council we would do that joint meeting with I don't know if that's why Steve's here. Are are you part of the of the it was the housing committee now it got combined with something else. I mean what what is that what is the housing group now? Exactly. Yeah. two, the workforce housing advisory board and the housing commission uh were officially combined. Yeah.

By city council this last meeting. Um the membership is still being sorted out because there were some vacancies especially on the housing commission and some of those may retain a spot but both the title and the membership are gradually being combined. He had one housing outfit that yielded um to to the suggestion that you discussed there a minute ago and and was on Watkins summary have a joint meeting with them seemed like a smart idea as you're doing this imaginations.

I mean do do you think it would be good to have a you know before we go to council I mean did would that be good to do a joint meeting with that group? Yes. to kind of bubble up and I'm sure they have been working on there. There's more ideas. Hey, maybe not this way. How about this?

Benefit that I that I've seen is that that you've got a certain kind of expertise among the people who happen to be on the workforce board right now. They're smart about investments, financing, um kind of kind of the mechanics of this of the housing access and you're smart about design and community integration and planning and and so those two at heart are good things but those two combined can be inspired. The name of the group is WH. Yeah, I guess my ask my plea was just if we get any direction from council to work on it specifically that it's a ideally don't have motion versus a

so then we know we have the majority vote is what you're saying will they don't have to listen anyway but we were to make a recommendation the I mean what what do you think trend is you kind of know I mean do we give like here's kind of like a puke or or or is it a focus kind of thing? I mean, how much time do we need to spend on this to go back to council?

I think equally well, we you obviously want to work for with the workforce housing advisory board or fund advisory board and kind of bounce ideas off of that and then collectively you could do that with council, but council might give you a head. we'll be able to give you a motion on how they vote in a work session format and this has to go to them official code. Oh, this is this is this is just a general like concept and idea and I I did I did chat with Carl about after that happened with the frustrations that we had as a commission and advancing that recommendation to this essentially

and I so that's frustrating council's in a tough position. They might they might feel very comfortable with these ideas, but then once we discuss them here and they move forward as a code amendment, that's when the public starts to get involved. That's when they hear their constituents and it's a little bit more challenging for their their seat to say yes. Let me add to that because I'd like to hear Let me add that council members have a lot more courage. They've got thoughtful proposals well crafted from a group like this. Yeah.

Question about the timing of all of that though. Wasn't it was were we tasked with a lot of that and then there was a lot that happened in the community selling off of that. Right. So I think that the the temperament of the community changed, didn't it? Like there was a time that we were in the middle of a project. Yeah. The the project on the corner there and that just blew up and so I think council had to just say this is not the right time.

Right. But we had requests from council to come up with a recommendation. We had special worker special meeting to meet their timeline. It went to council and went nowhere to I guess I'm like this is just the process for your recommending body. That's what we do. We make a recommendation. We work hard and sometimes it works. I'm asking it was a point of order. Okay,

go. There's a simple point of it and I brought this up with Carl after that is that should we as a body act on a simple comment made by a counselor at the end of a meeting rather than be part of like the agenda or so that they are discussed right and we know council they don't have to take they don't have to vote on motion on something they can also just bring it up talk about it and provide direction right but that wasn't even done it was a single counselor again during counselor comment threw that in there we all did a special meeting work like hell, provide a recommendation, those who entertain. So that's what I want to avoid as we take this up. I don't want to duck this issue at all. We can't. This is our community. But I want to have that assurance that when we take these issues up that we've got the rule of the council behind us.

Well, we're doing this today based on the last work session we had with council. They said that they wanted to have conversations about more housing as solutions. So I think we're doing that. I think the best course of action would be to take it up with WFAD and then collectively go back to city council at our next work session and say these are the things that we would like to do and they can give you opinions at that time. They're not voting but they can you can get a feel for oh we we're we're in support of that initiative. This one we're not so great on and you can get a feeling so that maybe you're not so disappointed at the end of the day if it doesn't meet the expectations.

Is there going to be another work session? Council at the last time we met said that they wanted to make it more frequent. So by the time we're on this conversation here and and when with with FAB, I think it'll be about time for another meeting and you know then we can move the code forward. So I guess here's be a question. I would just kind of throw a intermediate process thing in there. Does it make sense for maybe between you and Steve council to just kind of say, "Hey, here's what here's kind of here's what PNZ has been doing. We've had two meetings. You're kind of coming up with this. We're looking going forward this way. I'm glad to do that Thursday night."

Yeah. But and you know, to just make sure that that's time well spent to and and I agree with what you're saying, Greg. I think that's spot on. And um I mean I think it's good. Well, I think today was good, Watkins. I think thank you moving us that way, but but it's like is it is going to go anywhere or I mean should we continue working on it or not? I mean is that kind of what you're Yeah. Yeah. I mean this is still pretty but but you weren't here last time or were you here? Yeah. Oh here last time. No, last time. This is significantly better than

but it seems like the process is that Watkins said he was gonna synthesize the information come up with some like tangible things based off of what we've discussed that we could do to the code. That's right. And then we're going to have more discussions here. It's kind of like how we did the comp plan. You start off with throw away half you distill some down into something that is easy to make decision. Yeah, it's good. So, you're going to bring it up Thursday. Is that I'm doing a report on on the progress you made last meeting and this meeting. Very quick summary that you're doing this creative work and you're going to have juicy stuff to present to the cast. They always watch the report. Yeah.

They don't have time to do that. So, is that they're gonna talk about it and then meet with them at a council meeting? We don't We'll just find out. I think I think a work session before we process the code. Okay. What's the acronym for the group again? Yeah, exactly. But I understand the frustration. I think that's why we're trying to take a

very slow approach to it. Break it down into tangible, palatable pieces that we can before

from what it's worth. Greg, I think Joy hit it that you did some good work and the coincidental timing of a presentation in the context of other fights in town was more what was in the way than the lack of value in your proposal. I trust that that proposal still is in computer file somewhere. that your work has been preserved so that it can come again when times are a bit more right.

I think it's also tied into the education. If if you remember when that happened last time we had we I don't think we were in front of it as a as a group. So when that was going on, the habitat thing or whatever that that was going on that that people got fired up before they had a chance to understand maybe the bigger picture at least at least what what we thought the may have but it was definitely a time I mean that the habitat that development was what instigated the vote and all the things falling off city property. Yeah. That was all at that time.

Y all this work is like laying the foundation for moving things forward solutions to problems that we have. So you know I I don't think it was was was a waste of time regardless of the the outcome of that particular kind of rendition of it. Yeah. Politics are tough very long game. will be off topic question forward. Yes. Yes. County selling about 1.2 million worth of make it live. Anybody know about this?

What? MLS Garfield County owns it. There's the old chamber of commerce. No, they're just vacant lots throughout the land throughout throughout the city. The city county has talked to you about this obviously or mentioned this to the city. They talked to us in planning Phil buy one point too with multiple par parcels that they own throughout city right on the I can find it I guess give me a second yeah these are like all the checkerboard they just spent all their money and then they have to get a vote

these are the lots that are like landlocked by city properties it might be exactly because there's a lot of that. No, 1.2. Those are 1.2 million. That's Well, no, that Yeah, those those ones that you're talking about that are landlocked. I don't think I'm thinking they're cheap. I think Oh, TBD various. Yes, TBD various. Seven parcels being offered for sale in the city of Totally over 5.7 acres, mainly zone residential media. 2 million. Yeah, there's three lots of hillside. I should call a realtor.

They're worthless. And it is Garfield County. Yes. Yeah. I wonder if there's no access. Yeah. Hillside Preservation Kicks in all the things, right? Interesting. Do you want me to speak?

Yeah. Thank you. Thanks. Okay. You ready to move on? If you got one, it's up to you.

I like the discussion because I mean this helps us determine what your interests are and it helps us d Honestly, I think we should be doing, you know, carving out as many um avenues for infill development, eliminating barriers to the things that we do have control over. I mean, there's been a lot of kind of limitations put on us by various referendums. So I think make it easy for the tiny home. Make it easy for the smaller multif family buildings. You know, sell off the ADU. Make it easy if you're living in your car. You're already No, I think it's good.

It's super important. This is good. That's why so many things got stopped. So, have you guys heard about in um I think it's in Dylan or Breenidge, they have parking lots where people can live in their vehicles. Yeah. And people have lived there for years. I know people who would use that. Yeah. Church a lot of times. Yeah. They actually have like in Dylan they actually have um like a designated city parking lot. to your employer. Yeah, you have to you have to work there. Yeah, I should bring that up. Is it

Do we have an idea? Is there not a way to get an idea of the number of seasonal employees that call other than my resource? Yeah, I'm sure Jacob, it'd be good to get that number because then we can maybe talk about some of these other solutions at least, you know, at least be daylight so we're not having to, you know, yeah, I mean, I know people who no longer work, they're on social security, then they're living in that they would love a safe place to park now. I think we should add that to that. Seriously, I did say living in

No, I'm saying we should add to the that Watkins has. I think that's a great Yeah. A big example could be a simple thing where as a I I own my boat house location and it's permissible for me to have my employees other vehicles. Pretty sure people live out of Whitewater. Well, I mean stay silent on that, but to make it a permitted use. Yeah. I mean, if you rent space at at the old mall, you know, there's huge parking lot. Yeah. Yeah. Or just dump. It's justactive.

Yeah. No, but it would be No, I think that's a great I mean it's something to bring up. It seems simple. Yeah. Seems like a simple thing. Yeah. And it might not be seen as simple. I know. I shouldn't say simple. It's crazy. And you're not pandering to the the most community. It's probably the borderline recently lost housing. They have a hard time. Yeah. We want to be careful about avoiding the the dissension of RVs. Yeah. Side streets and everything, you know. I mean, they were doing all that in the west exit. You know, it's really difficult. You want to be welcoming. You want to take care of the people, but if they all start coming in, we've got it worse.

I I almost love the idea though that you're proposing is like as an employer, you have some control over this situation. Yeah. and maybe offering it as, you know, a permitted use for an employer. It makes sense. They're going to have sanitation issues with any kind of residential. I would think you would at least I know the county won't let you put certain things on property unless you have some Well, they're allowed. Yeah. Or if it's a permitted use, it's going to be, you know, you're going to have stipulations on on how it's going, but it's interesting.

Any other ideas? That, you know, that was a good that was a good idea. Thanks.

We have had before. Oh, it gets really cold up at sunlight where he was living on our own backyard. here. But yeah, we don't know about this. No, just stays in his car. He doesn't need to come back. No, there is some. Okay, any more comments? Should we we ready to move on? John, you got anything else to add? Hey, uh, commissioner comments.

I'm good. S greenhouse. Where are you at with funding?

We are fundraising now. We've got our website live. There's a Venmo link. Um still in negotiations with the city as to where the structure might actually be reassembled, but the city did approve funding of the project u the affordable housing project in West Lenwood. From what I understand, there's two months till the property closes and there's two months for the greenhouse to go. So, we are looking at like March, maybe April. So, we're going to need to hire some engineers. We've got some meetings coming up. Um, definitely need some funding. We've been approaching like Lions Club and Rotary and looking to businesses and local um donors for money. Is it Springs Riverside Botanical Gardens.com?

So, is the location still still? We have earmarked the favorite location. Yeah. Yep. And uh Lisa King, but she was a horiculture. She actually worked at the greenhouse. She went to school for some nonprofit stuff and she used that greenhouse as her project building it into a new botanical garden. So like send us your paper. So you know, we're just trying to get some enthusiasm going in. What's the estimated cost on that?

Uh keep civil. So uh in full with um overages and contractor fees, we're thinking to dismantle it should be about $850,000. That's less than estimated in 2017. It is. Yeah. So you'd be able to store potentially disassemble chimneys apart, foundation stones apart. Um there's a lot of asbestous in there. There's been under there. hoping to find the boiler that might tell us who the manufacturer for the greenhouse was. But the I mean it makes sense that the developer would have to do asbestous debatement if they were going to get rid of the greenhouse anyway. So we're going back and forth with pay for what? It's more expensive than building a house.

Yeah, it might be. But that's okay. Yeah, I mean it's going to be expensive to rebuild, too. And we're working out some flood plan issues um on the So that doesn't include the the reconstruction cost. That's correct. Phase one. Okay. Yep.

Yeah. Take cranes and Yeah. Glass. Yeah. We're taking a glass all

that has to do. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, all those additions are gone. I mean, it's been disassembled twice before. Huh. It was built in 1903 at Redstone Castle. So, it came as a kit on the train. Then they built it and then they took it apart from 39, brought it over here, put it back together. The whole thing was in West and they kept chopping it up and using all the steel for all the projects on the farm, you know. So, um the longterm plans have to be inspecting. No. And reconstruction they probably would. We'd probably be required to have a demolition permit to make sure there's no letter asbestous in there. But if there's no demolition considerations for whether it's a structure over 50 years old, it just

Oh, you mean if it's right to permit? No, I guess that would Never mind. Yeah, that's a different commission. Okay.

Trent still working on getting their health and development manager on board. Mr. Hopefully there couple other issues that we're looking into that came out of that work session with city council. One was lighting look at that and then also the affformentioned landscaping requirements. One for the wildfire resiliency code but also another just based on some confusion that we've heard on our different watering zones and how that's applied. is just taking a closer look at that. So may have some more work session or code amendments coming along with that variance there probably.

Uh was there any update on the four less process? I know you were talking with people that did ADUs and single family and working on process there survey and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, with that have some discussions about like as boat surveys cost associated with that. That's what you're referring to. Oh. Oh, no. You're going to be talking like with some builders. Yes. Yes. Have been speaking with um designers and builders in the community. Bri and Sarah are working on a survey to apply to our permitting system. That's still great.

Okay, I got the holidays to you all. Thanks for your service to this board. Um really appreciate it. It's hard to It's hard to find your good people like this that are interested and care about their community, but grateful for you here at the end of the year and during the season. So, thank you. It's for the Chinese food. Missed the meal last time was get steak. It's a tomahawk. Stick on.