Planning and Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

RI ID 86380550264. Um, let's do the roll call. Commissioner Corkerin, Commissioner Sipperly here. Commissioner Waller here. Commissioner Hton here. Commissioner Gin here. We have a quorum. Okay. Um, now we'll go through the receipt of the minutes first for August 26th. Um, I'll have a motion to accept them. And then then we can question.

She simply uh I move to accept the uh October uh no the um what August August meetings with uh one edit. I believe you need a second first. But if the motion has the edit in it. Yeah. But then we motion and then we go through. Okay. I move to accept the August minutes. Okay. Do I have a second?

Second. Okay. We have a motion in the second. Okay. Do we have additions, deletions? Uh there's just one minor correction on the vote on the marijuana facility. At the last line, it said passed unanimously 621. So that wasn't unanimous. That's all. Okay. Any other was six to one. The vote was six to1. Okay. It was not unanimous. Got it. So they'll be the following month. I just want to make sure we got August correct. So they'll be amended and accordingly. Okay. Okay. Any other additions deletions? Okay. We will call for a vote for approval of the minutes with the correction.

The motion passes unanimously. Okay. How you show up? That's why you're not showing up because you're in in a different spot. Oh, look at all of us. Seven commissioners there should be I think you're okay because we're just going to get the only taking two votes. You're okay. It works. Okay. Um unanimous stuff. That one was unanimous. White is so we you could move but

Okay. We'll move on to the next receipt of minutes for the October 28th meeting. Um, a motion to approve those. I move to approve the October 28th meeting minutes. Okay, I have a motion on the floor. Empty seat number one. I second that motion. I second that motion. Okay. Seconded by Commissioner Corkran. Um any comments or n I'll withdraw on this one because I was not at the last meeting but okay let's call for the vote.

The motion passes unanimously. Okay. Thank you very much. Okay. um move on to comments uh from any citizens that are here for items that are not on the agenda. And no one on I don't see anyone online. So, okay, now we'll move on. Close those public comments. Um Steve, there's Steve. Hello, Steve. Okay. Um, new items. Uh, Watkins.

Good evening. Thanks everyone for your patience tonight. Tonight we've got an old-fashioned open dialogue work session about housing. So, I thought I'd start us off um by asking you to take out your phones. You're going to do some voting. So, you all have your your your phones with you. Um, you can scan that QR code that you see on your screen or if that's too small, I can bring my computer around and you can scan from there. I did not bring my phone. You want to use mine? That's who does that? Mine's always turned off. It's

just just don't let it uh Don't let it lock. Oh, I thought you were just gonna say don't scroll through the photos. No, you see my dog ski boot. Could you Could you publicly tell us your password? How can I write it down? Can I do this on my laptop? Uh, you could. It just might be harder. Or you could just enter it. Sure. You just tell me your answer and I'll put it in. This is not secret stuff. We're doing

So, was everyone able to to get access to it? We did it up on

Had to introduce some more technology today. Yeah, we didn't have enough. It's gone so You can use that if you want. Yeah, we'll give you a bunch of tablets. One for she's gonna vote. I'll do Joyy's vote. Okay, everyone ready to start voting or do you need a minute?

So, this is going to relate to um the short memo that we had. If you could only pick two zoning changes from this list that's here, which are you most interested in? So, everyone please pick two. Do you want to tell me your answer for you? Oh, you got it. Oh, great. Perfect. Yeah, I brought my tablet with me. I forgot to tell you. No, it's Carolyn.

How do you move it? Just hold on. Oh, more votes. You can see it in real time on the screen.

Says we got what? Four out of five so far. Five. Yep. And there only five of you. Okay.

All right. Um, so density bonuses looking like it's the most popular allowing duplexes in more places. Sounds familiar. Commercial to residential conversions and hotel conversions. Uh, next slide then. So for this one, I want you to imagine you have $100,000 that you alone get to choose how to use, but it has to be used on one or multiple of these things here. Um, so you get to allocate that money. You can spread it around a lot or you can do 100,000 for one thing.

Basically your your vote in that is a percentage. So it goes up by 10% at a time. What is WRC? West Mountain Regional Housing Coalition. So that's the regional housing effort that we have. Don't all vote at once. There's a list. We're trying to read through it. It's like nine. This is the first time I've seen this. Item nine. Don't vote for item nine. You're putting You're going all in one place. 109. Item nine is to put money into doing nothing.

Just kidding. I thought that was they paid themselves. What's this? think they didn't hit submit.

Okay. And I think that's everyone now. So, the purpose of this is just it's a prioritization exercise. It's fake money obviously. Um I'm glad you guys didn't ask too many questions. Think about it too much. We don't need you to say, "Well, well, would $10,000 go further if you did this than the other?" That's not the point of this. So, uh, the preferences that we see from you all here, um, employer based rental assistance, very interesting, mobile home park preservation, funding, regional work, down payment assistance tied with incentives to convert short-term rentals to long-terms, um, pre-approved designs, housing navigator, and then tenants rights education. It's very interesting. Got one more. Um, and then I am going to save all this. So, now this one is open-ended. What additional topics do you want to explore? So you should be able to type I think there's maybe a 200 character limit, but you can type whatever you want.

So is is this based on like what you put out and sent out today for I mean for the agenda for the thing? So we I mean that's what we're Yeah. So I mean here here's my question. So were those things separate than than like what you sent out for us to look through or So this slide right here is asking for separate stuff that we haven't covered. previous two were based all on things that were in the the memos the memos list. I hesitate to call it a memo.

Sorry, but you want new topics that aren't in the demo.

Yeah. I mean, you could also put up here ones that were not specified in the other questions if you want to try to highlight those. I mean the point of this actually says really is just kind of consider conversation on certain topics so that we can focus on discussing those as opposed to trying to have a discussion about a 100 different topics even controversial long-term camping. Um, it's like we're waiting on a couple more.

Yeah, I'm still And you can I don't think there's a limit to how many times you can respond to this question.

Yeah, I mean, we can do Yeah, you could have several that you put in. Yep. Let's get Okay. Well, everyone can see these results. Um, so this is very interesting. We'll be saving these. There's a way you can save these and could incorporate them into the minutes if we want. Um, any last results? Anyone tapping away? I think we're all done. Okay. Well, great. Um, I think this was interesting. Um, let me stop sharing my screen and then I think we just kind of wanted to move into um, open discussion. Were there things from the list that we provided that you guys want have questions about?

I guess I I have a process question. So, um, so is is this information I mean, are we trying to come up with something cohesive? Are we going to try to come up with like random conversations that then you're going to take random thoughts to counsel or what what I mean, you know what I mean? Because otherwise, how do we how do we focus it in on on things that we talk about? Because this is like it's a lot of stuff. Yeah, and I think that that was kind of the intent of that exercise. And what maybe it might be easiest for us to do is to go back and see what the the highest rated topics were because we we don't want to just throw a a large list at council and say do what you will. We we would rather focus on some of the items where we find consensus from this group and then forward maybe at a later date uh a code amendment to council. so that you all could request, hey staff, okay, this is great. You've developed this list and you took it back. You did more research on it. You brought it back to us. We talked more. Um, now bring us a code amendment that's associated with those changes.

So, so we might be having this conversation a couple times with us before it goes to council. Yeah. Okay. Correct. that I like that's and I kind of I kind of think that like you know obviously future meetings where we have major land use files that are pulling a lot of the public in for uh commenting that might not be the best meeting to tag it on to but you know something where there's a simple variance coming up might be a good one okay let's continue that discussion from that previous month keep it going

and then I I I have one other kind of process question so you you know, there's different committees, preservation committee, the river dis, you know, there's all these different groups. I thought there was a housing one, and I've kind of been hearing that there's maybe not so much of a housing one anymore. So, that so there's not there's not a a committee bubble up that then boils to us. So are we acting as that housing group that's trying to bubble this up or

there is there there is a housing so what you're referring to is there used to be a housing or still is technically a housing commission and a workforce housing fund advisory board. Those are being combined. So that's that's what's happen that's the change. So there still is very much a an active housing committee.

So were they I mean did they go through and do an exercise on this or so were that were that group? I you your um this group for this housing discussion. I think probably what we would do is that we would um workshop some of these ideas but then share it with the housing advisory board, you know, to get their opinions and weigh in on that as we've moved it up to council.

So that maybe possibly we would have a okay, yeah, WFAB looked at this and they said, "No, we like what they're proposing from the planning commission. Let's do that. Maybe in the interim we have a meeting with WFAB, we share with them this conversation. They say, "Hey, maybe you should take up this one, too, or we've got a recommendation for this." So, I think the intent was just, you know, we realized when we had the work session with city council that housing's on every on on the top of everyone's mind. Let's do what we can about it and let's keep talking about it.

So, so one one thing that could happen would be that we could have a joint session. I think we've done that at least a couple times in the past when committees have come in and commissioner I mean we can assume that they've been working on these very problems right and we haven't well we had the update last meeting from where we're at with housing but not necessarily where the the other volunteer commission is is um trying to guide us right

yeah and I would say that probably Um the the housing commission as it used to be has struggled to have membership. Um the workforce housing advisory board has been pretty active but very focused on their role in determining kind of where that 2C funding stream should be targeted what types of projects making recommendations and reviewing specific projects that are coming in asking for funding. Um, so they probably haven't done what you're doing yet. Um, in kind of that more macro level, they've been very project um, and program specific like the rental assistance program and then looking at LITC deals and various funding, various, you know, construction or conversion projects that are asking for funding. So, they've been much more focused on that, I think, than kind of more this larger policy kind of discussion. Yeah, I think I mean I think that's good to hear. And I think for us to know how do we focus in so we're giving direction instead of random thoughts. I guess that's

I think hopefully that's what we can figure out how to do. Okay. Thank you. Sorry.

And Watkins, I don't know if you want to go back to maybe one of the first couple of slides. Um if you can share that and we can see kind of where we where we landed. um try to focus in on on some of the the things you would like for us to to bring back information and research on related to those topics, but then maybe we can save some time at the end to jump into the the wild wild world of uh those items that people just listed when given the option. So, uh, the top vote getter for zoning changes, um, if we're just talking about zoning changes was, of course, density bonuses. Uh, there is background on that for most of y'all. Not all of you were, um, were on PNZ when we were really considering some of these options, but, um, in the the list in the memo that that we gave y'all, those are from the proposed uh, changes that you all considered and made some recommendations on. This was back in 2023, I want to say. Um, you know, so things like um incentives for for providing deed restricted units that aren't required. Um there's all kinds of ways you can do that. Incentives by the nature of what that means that you're you're giving them something that's not allowed by code and except for these provisions. So incentives um you know classically that kind of means giving them more units, letting them build more, letting them build higher, letting them um giving them flexibility on the kind of design standards. So those are the things that matter to developers. Uh, and so part of the magic here is how much is too much to give and and what is what what do um um what's most valuable for developers to get. So that's all part of the magic of doing

this. Um and in 2023 when y'all were considering the density bonuses and coming up with something more specific, um something that was important to y'all was home ownership. So doing some incentives for things that are going to be for sale. So, I'd be looking for you guys to um you know, tell us is that what you want to see? You want to revisit that? Do you have questions? Do you have do you want to see some more ideas specific to these kinds of things? And I I guess a question that I have, Watkins, is how successful have the incentives that we're currently offering been?

So, right now, our code is very simple. It says we may offer a density bonus period. That's all. There's a little bit more in the housing guidelines as opposed to zoning guidelines. Um it's a limit of of one additional story. So that's that's a height thing. Um but there's really not much guidance and so that's not super easy for us to administer and um to be more targeted and and more specific what the densy bonus allows. That's really how you kind of get traction in in guiding um developments to something that we the city want to see.

I guess one one question I would just have is, you know, some of these items are on here that and we came up with them in 2023. We had our thing that we passed up and a lot of it got, you know, didn't happen. And and so I guess a question I would just have is do we want to rehash stuff that we went through that got poo pooed or um because I mean density bonuses was one you know duplexes was one that kind of went up and it got voted down or whatever. I mean you know was it was a was a tough thing. So in in the community as well. So I'm I'm just asking how how do we proceed with that kind of thing that happened maybe just a few years ago?

I feel like a few years is a long time in this space to be honest and you know and and um the community is also um in that period of time you know kind of jumped into the game with with approval of the 2C fund. Um I I don't think it's I think we can continue to try. Um but you know maybe some are are more worthy of of having another conversation about you know one thing that that I hear over and over again that I would like to have a discussion about how can we better incentivize is the for sale product. Um, you know, I mean, I know we have some some issues out there with with liability and that kind of thing, but, you know, everyone I hear that from, you know, seems like it's a it's a it's desirable to them. I I don't know that that's the right answer to be honest for this the housing issues that we have, but everyone seems to think that it's a positive. So, how can we incentivize that? You know, I you look up, you know, how do you incentivize housing? generally it's money in one form of fashion. It's money. Um I don't know that that has generated a huge density bonus for a lot of the projects that we're seeing. I think maybe um you know we there's some other factors at play here. I think some of it does have to do with the building code and and the the point access blocks like we talked about a couple weeks ago. Um, but you know, I I think we should talk about anything that we think's still important and maybe new ideas for achieving the the the type and the form that we want.

Okay. Um, yeah, not to backtrack a little bit, but do we have an idea of what the homeownership percentage is versus tenant occupancy in Glenwood is? I don't off the top of my head. Yeah, that's something that we can find though. Is it I mean I would That's a great question. That's the kind of stuff though that I'd like like to help form this conversation. How would we pull that and bring it back the next

Yeah, because my experience is uh when you put something for sale, Glenwood's at the bottom of the valley and still relatively affordable and people tend to buy secondary investment properties. It's always been the case when you put up a lot of properties for sale that people will invest in them. Um, so I'm all for home ownership, but how do you guide it just to people who want to live there versus investor, right? Right. If you're selling them, you want that competition. So, but yeah, if we if we had any idea what that is, that'd be really interesting. Thank you. I think just keep your mic. I think people should just keep their mics on. Um, I can figure out how to keep on.

You don't you don't get one, Steve. And I don't like hot mics.

That's for good reason. And what you know one one thing I kind of have too it it seems like we have two there's kind of um we have a lot of emotion around four or less you know ADUs short-term rentals you know that and when you know when I and I wasn't at your last meeting but I was looking at the data and and it's you know 3% is long-term, right? They they were low numbers and and and it and and then you have the big developments which are really where you're going to get housing thing and that's where you're going to you know try try to make the numbers be better but they're very controversial you know like we just had over Donigan you know which is had a lot of a lot of good housing things to happen which really impact the numbers and you know maybe like the 300 units but they're not for sale but but those are the big number things that really impact versus and and I'm I'm just kind of making a comment here, but then then we get we're all emotional about the ADUs, you know, the four less and and I think for the community there it's a big deal that they're very important, but from the larger housing conversation, they're not hitting our big numbers, you know, like the number of ADUs we probably have a year, maybe, I don't know, four or five or

we average five. Yeah. So, I mean, it's not that's not like a like a development that's 200 units or anyway, I don't know if that makes any sense of what I'm saying. And I don't know if we look at how we look at density bonuses or different kinds of thing, different incentives. I I'm just going to toss it out there. I don't know what other people think about that. different incentives to um incentivize incentivize a larger number

a developer. Yeah, exactly. for something and you know and trying to go after that and I you know um along that line I mean because some of the rules we put in place I think the one that I heard I think Sumner might have brought it up was the um when you have a large apartment complex of what's the percentage of short-term rentals you can have in there and it and it it it was set up for a different kind of project different kind of project and it rolls into that. I mean I so I don't know if there's difference I don't know if that's making if I'm making sense what I'm saying but um

I I I've often wondered like you know how do we get this paradigm shift because we do have that problem you're going to get the the the greatest um solution to the problem from these major developments but but everyone seems to have a negative opinion of them um you know so does that mean you Should there be a focus on uh advertising campaign, you know, education,

education, a means to inform folks of, you know, these are the problems, these are the the people who who these projects are solving the problems for. Um because there seems to be a a real big disconnect between, you know, I think we always tend to want to, you know, it's the up valley down valley conundrum as I call it. We always want to blame other people for our problems. One of the things that Jacob in our office um shared with us is that, you know, he can track where the folks that live in a BLD are a major development are going every day. Guess what? The folks that live in those units are a lot more likely to drive their cars only to places within the city to work as opposed to the folks that work in single family homes who are more likely to drive up Valley. So, you know, we talk we talk about, well, we're building that for Aspen. We're not building it for Aspen. We're building it to serve the restaurant that we go out to eat or the coffee shop that we hit on the way to work every day. So, it's an understanding of kind of some of those issues and then we we're gaining the data um every day to to to prove that.

Do we have a silly question, but do we have an idea of what we want as a population for Glenwood? Is there a max number? I mean, are we thinking like we hit this number and then we're done?

No. Uh, and reason why, um, we're not very good at at at doing those kind of of studies. Um, and with technology, you know, you could say that, uh, each house uses X amount of water and you divide the amount of water you think you have. It's not that simple. You know, technology changes. We get more efficient at doing these things. Um, also was as as businesses get established and become beloved and part of the community, we need people to staff those. Um, and to say that there are no more people, that's there are all kinds of knock-on effects that that would have economically.

I think it kind of gets to your question, I think, on the ownership thing. You know, I think that I mean, we harp on that and I know I've probably harped on it a lot because I think the ownership drives community. There's a lot of goodness things that it does, but there's a lot of renters as well that are working at the places like you're talking about. So, I don't know what that if there's a balance. I mean, it seems like though right now we're way out of balance with with all all of our big new projects that come in are all for rent and not for purchase. I mean, I think something you you need to think about in all of that, though, is is really attainable housing in this community ever really going to be for sale units at the scale that the population needs? And is it in part recognizing that renters have always been part of the community

and that we really maybe in general need to focus on making sure they feel part of the community because you do hear community leaders and lots of communities sort of talk about renters as if they're not really part of the fabric of their communities. And that just has never been the case and certainly isn't the case moving forward. When you just see that the average freemarket home price for a single family residence in Glenwood is about $1.1 million. Now, that's I mean, when I look at say the associates that work for me, like I they can't achieve a single family residence even though we pay really probably some of the best paying employers in town, they still can't afford to buy here. So, you know, kind of where does that put us? I know this is something Joy is pretty compassionate about. Um wanting entrylevel housing opportunities and I realize that the the condominiumization um did the law recently changed so there's less liability for developers. So we may have an opportunity to condominiumize more buildings because it's those small for sale places that would probably allow people to get into their first home. I mean, right now, if you finally saved up enough, you're you're probably looking at silt or rifle. If you were renting here and you want to own, you might be forced out of the community and to work down valley, and we we don't want to do that either because that brings all their cars, you know, right back here if this is where they're employed. Um, but on the other hand, I don't like to see these personally don't like to see these large um developments of rentals. I don't feel like they're very well suited to the the nature of our community. Like the stuff that we approved out there behind the meadows, I was shocked at how big and a heavy footprint that was. And I was we all walked around the site and looked at it and waved our arms and I was still surprised by it and I know a lot of folks are. So, I'm much more leaning towards smaller unit sizes infill in town. How do we get people to know like, hey, you can you can rent out

your basement or remodel your attic. just put in a few windows, make it code compliant, and you can make money and provide housing. So, I think an education strategy might be good for that. Or like an openhouse or a we can all get together with some builders and remodelers and know the Anderson window guys and have a picnic. Um, so that people might be more aware that not only can they provide housing for their neighbors, but make some money off it.

The unit sizes are smaller. And just to follow up on two of your comments, um, and Pat, I in terms of like the actual number to address the need, we we do know what those are. Um, and and even with the larger developments, we're still Is it even couple thousand was 1358 and in 2023? Yeah. 13. Oh, that we that we added or what the need was then? The need was needed. Yeah. Okay. And then and then it was 2,000 and something over a certain period of time that we would. So we we didn't hit that, but just in terms of of of need.

Um and and you know, I always take that stuff with the grand thought anyways because guess what? If we filled every need, people are still going to want to move to paradise. You know, we're never going to run out of people that want to live here. So we're always going to be chasing this this issue. I think you know what good thing you guys get to keep your jobs as planning and zoning commissioners. But in terms of the infill and the smaller projects, maybe that is where there's a play for John's recommendation of, you know, the point access blocks and reducing the requirements for dual access to these buildings um so that we can have some more um larger floor plans within smaller buildings. the the question that I have, John, to that specific topic is how do we deal with like the height, you know, in some of those buildings like we we can't or we don't have the desire to go up to allow to kind of spread the cost of those units, you know, over a larger building to decrease the the cost. So, that that's one question I have about it, but I do think it's a pretty good idea.

Would you like me to respond now? I mean, I I don't know that there's a silver bullet, but I think having the tool in the tool box is the first step. I mean, we have, you know, an excellent design community here. I think providing the tool is step one. And it probably looks something more like a tower in the park where you've got three or four buildings on a parcel instead of one big one. That's how I see it. Um, but whether that pencils out is is up to, you know, the design build community and what it would take to pencil out. Yeah.

I'll throw out another thought. This is um one of the things you brought up. I I think I saw there was a regional housing person or whatnot and I kind of follow Rifle a little bit these days and and and I just saw they for all of their new um city councilors, they just voted in new people and and I read through all of the everything that they were talking about and whatnot and housing was the number one thing in Rifle. I mean it's it so I mean it it so you know when you know like you talk about and and whether it's you it's Yansancy it's you know there's all these professional groups of people that make good money that can't live here but it's even hard it's it's it's it's bigger than here and and um you know I don't know how that all works. I know you guys I'm sure talk together all the time or maybe not but but I think that um you know how do we talk at that in a regional way would be and and and regional is maybe up valley but down valley is is a big part of and because maybe that's even more affordable that's maybe more of a real place to talk about with the new castles and silt and rifle to figure out I mean shoot I mean when I used to work at CM MC we had people that drive would drive from Fruda, you know, because that and maybe they wanted to live there, but it's a was a big darn deal. So, um, but anyway, that was I I just wanted to toss that out there because I I mean, everyone's in the same boat and we always hear about an up valley, but it's really down valley rifle is like starting to be un unattainable, you know, as well. So it it's um and I think that it's it's it's our biggest issue in in this town. I think this topic right here, it's our number one issue. That's my take over everything. But anyway,

you know, when you talk about regionally, the Colorado Association of Ski Towns, which Glennwood is a member of, and um I mean with CAST, we have we have had a standing housing task force for years now. It is probably the one thing we talk about most at cast meetings like every community I think across Colorado. It's been the you know the centerpiece of the governor's um legislative pushes. I mean he needs to work on how he comes to his decisions on what he's going to do. I think a little bit more bottom up than top down. But it has been I mean it's a core issue. you know, it is the single most most talked about issue, I think. And it and it goes to kind of that I think both housing and the affordability component, right?

A lot of people agree that the the regional approach in a perfect world is the way to do things because you can pull your money, pull your efforts, um, and identify real efficiencies that way, doing a regional approach. The rub is that when it was when it comes down to money basically, you know.

Yeah, it's tough. But I mean I mean for sharing data all of that but everyone's looking at you know you're talking about transportation and I think that's spot on. I mean like when people live here's where they're going to know what what I think when the bridge was being built they were using the phones to keep track of how long people would stay here. Were they come were they staying here to work or were they passing through. So I know there's lots of technology that would would maybe help but it but it does get down to education. I mean that, you know, if people don't understand what the smart people know, it's a tough it's a tough road to hoe.

What's the footprint of the West Mountain Regional Housing Coalition? Is that Pen Eagle and Garfield counties? Yes. Um, let's see. Newcast one, no one uh Down Valley of Gwynwood is a member, right? Um, so it's just us minus the county. I'm pretty sure the county is not officially a member, but every other municipality here as well as Eagle County and Pick County. And if you But what's the I mean is there what's the border for uh the down payment assistance? Where where can you buy a home? through a west region or west everywhere in the in the Roaring Fork Valley and the Colorado River Valley like down through Parachute or is it

I think I thought it and I know that the last update I think I heard from them is that the majority of their down payment assistance program buys were in Glenn. Yes. Well, I think it's because even with that that's Yeah. where you can afford to buy, right? No. And and it makes I mean it makes some sense, but I mean just in terms of where money, you know, when when council was talking about how much they were going to contribute, they you know that was one of the things they were asking about and it was great when April was in um the director was in talking about it. She's like, yeah, you know, like proportionally most of you know, most people are buying kind of Iron Bridge to Glenwood is seems to be kind of the the area.

Heck of a deal for us. It's tough. I mean, it's it's the problem all over. Yeah. What do you have to say, Miss Gman? I have a lot of knowledge about um housing and affordable housing, but you know, in Fresco, they built like a whole development of affordable housing um on I think it was on Frisco like town land.

Yeah. Um I can actually speak a little bit to that. So, I represent the town of Silverthornne as well as the Summit Combined Housing Authority over in Summit County. And they have had uh it's going to be 20 years um coming up I think this year that they have had a dedicated funding stream. Um they call it the 5A money because that was the ballot initiative, 5A funding for Summit County entities. And so they have um over time invested um each one of the communities has invested really heavily. So you have that in Frisco. Um obviously Breck has done a lot. Um and then in Silverthorn they have um what's the Smith Ranch development which at some point if you ever driving through and look it up, drive through it, it's um duplexes and triplexes um

and some family all for sale product. Yeah, it's up um Highway 9. Um and then in front of that or adjacent to it is a LITC project as well as just a deed restricted um apartments as well. And so you know all of that combined the town of Silverthornne has probably between land and direct investments probably put 30 or $40 million into just Smith Ranch. And so that difference in the length of time if you imagine 2C 20 years from now and what the investments and what it could have done will potentially do that's a little bit of why Summit County is so much farther ahead it feels like is that that dedicated funding stream has been there for a very long time. Summit combined housing has existed for probably 15 or 18 years now. So, it's just they've been in the game a lot longer.

And we have deed restricted properties besides the ones for the good deeds, right? Like in the like when we build We do. We do. How many do we have? Um so, and we have a couple they're in a couple of different pots. Um one is um derestricted units that were created through our inclusionary zoning requirements. Those are the ones developers have to provide. There are not so many of those because we haven't had that uh that requirement on the books for very long. Uh but we've also have uh for a few years have had the voluntary deed restriction program which is where you can opt into it. Um you get some fees waved in exchange for the deed restriction and um I'd have to look up the exact numbers but it's somewhere in the order of 30 I want to say. Yeah.

Um in inclusionary that's well I'd want to look up to give you the right number. Mhm. I just wonder if Glennwood could ever get to the point of building a development that has um I mean Frisco gives people affordable housing. Based on if they live in Frisco, work in Frisco.

Yeah. And and there again, it's actually um all those programs um the deed restrictions are all countywide. Um if you live and work in Summit County Yeah. um which is one cooperatively I mean to to Pete's point is a really powerful tool they use there is because they're not saying well this is just for Rifle or just benefits Rifle or this just benefits Glenwood they view it as a countywide um you know when they're talking about housing and workforce housing they have been working cooperatively for a long time countywide and I think that's part of why the program has been pretty successful

um is you know where you live and work doesn't have to be just in or town um to be able to take advantage of those opportunities to be in lotteryies, all of that kind of thing. It doesn't it's not quite so place specific um which is a huge benefit of you know the county being part of that and all of municipalities in the county being part of it and Pickin County has something similar as well. No. Yeah. So are we ever going to get there? and one Garfield, a ballot initiative was just passed in a huge geographic area for for

child care. So it's it's not unreasonable to think that, you know, there could be great regional solutions down the road.

Yeah. And if you look at RAP, I mean, Rapa has been around for a long time. I mean, obviously there are some, you know, has always been some challenges extending it to the west with participation. I think that we may see that change now that Garfield County is pulling out their um you know some of their funding is being pulled back or most of their funding support um for the the Hogback route they're going to have to pull back just because of their their financial position in the moment. Um so we have had a number of regional solutions. I just don't know that we have you know pushed it as far as other areas have you know in terms of housing. But definitely to your point, I mean, I was surprised that 7A, 7 A, 7 C, whichever one it was, passed um A

A seven for seniors. See, it was 7A um passed with really good margins and I think that was great to see uh as from a regional standpoint. I think it was fantastic,

you know. I mean it seems like and and I I I really think the regional thing is the right way to go but you know you think of Summit you know you got B Frisco so I mean you there you know and there they're all together and they have a lot of money because Denver's right there you look at Pittkin County there's there's a lot of money there and I don't know maybe um Crested but maybe some down in some of those resort areas we're and and it seems like we're more dispersed. it seemed like we have more

socioeconomic dis diversity and I don't mean it in any way other than it's just the truth of you know if you take our county and you go from that district but but it it it seems like there's a there continues to be more opportunity in that way and you know when you look at you know the the new city councilors for rifle every one of them said housing was their number one thing of is how do we you know continue to try to work that to make that because I um I think doing it by ourselves is is uh is difficult and um anyway

and could we ever build in the t like the city lots that we have? I know we have to I don't I know it has to go on a ballot, but if it was um uh deed restricted housing, I don't know.

Yes. Just like the little complex in the back of I mean that little cute little complex back there in back of Frisco is adorable and it's only for the people who live there and it's all deed restricted and I feel like Glenn would get behind you know not large apartment complexes but tiny homes you know like that people can afford and they can live in the area and work in the area. Yes. If the city, all of us collectively, city council, choose to pursue something like that on city own land, like you said, it has to go to ballot. But if we own the land, we can control what the development looks like.

There's one item on the list here that I am wondering what it actually is. What is a housing navigator role?

Little bit of a new idea. Um, so as we talk about all these programs, there's a lot of details, right? It's kind of complicated. Uh, a lot of programs are similar from community to community but different also. So there's just a lot of detail there. And if you've ever been someone looking for housing and looking into these programs, it's it's really overwhelming because there's information out there and you're not sure what's correct and what's not and people tell you different things and they may or may not be educate. So that's what a housing navigator would do. They help you provide information. They connect you to the right people. They give you accurate information. They give you advice. Um so it is something that the regional coalition, the regional housing coalition as they want to be known right now, um they are looking at creating one of those part-time positions in the future.

So is it mostly to assist um renters with programs that could help them find a place? Is is that who you would go to to find out about down payment assistant? like is it an umbrella sort of position? I would say not just renters, homeowners too. Um but yes, someone you could go to for help navigating all these programs that are out there. Okay. And that is that that's kind of the role that the housing development manager uh fills right now. Um so that's what they do. But um as things grow and get more complicated and especially when you start looking at a regional lens, there's there's an opportunity for someone to help people navigate it. Yeah. As long as the people know that that that person is out there willing to help.

Yeah, that's good.

We wear that one out pretty good. We want to go back to our list and see. I've got I' I've got a couple of

Okay, keep going. Great. So, one one you know like I think Carl kind of brought this up and um you know CMC has kind of done I would say has been one of the leaders um right now in doing uh u housing work you know I'm I was going to say workforce not work but but for themselves and I know when I left CMC we're just starting I was working with Summit as well and when we were working in Breck and we did a housing project there that was that was quite a while ago and it was impressive to see what they had down in Summit and whatnot. But it but I guess what what my comment is I know and I've worked with Yansie and hearing exactly the same things that you talked about Carl. It it um and I don't know how we do this but I'll just throw it out. I think it's like a like a maybe higher level navigator person, but how do you get um SGM, you know, soap, you know, maybe there's a level maybe View Hospital, maybe, you know, there of of of our larger maybe professional employers, people that and I'm not saying they have more money, but they probably have more money than you know, Bishop Plumbing and Heating or someone like that. And not to say that those people don't need the same kind of thing, but but to try to get together to do some sort of um housing for, you know, that type of professional people as well. You know, RE1 has already done, you know, they they did their housing bond and they had housing in Carbon, Elbas, and Glenwood. And so, I'm just kind of tossing that out there. And I know I kind of talked with the antsy about it some in the past of something like that, but how do we bubble up some some sort of uh consoria or something like that to you know it seems like that that could be a possibility of

those kind of public private partnerships. Is that what you're describing? Yeah, that in fact that would be that would be a great thing and and and maybe maybe the the public part of it is helping with some of the land or that sort of thing to make that go but but it's with some of the businesses that maybe have more money and you know I don't think that there's one there's one solution there's many solutions whether it's the small there's all these different projects but anyway I'm just kind of tossing that one out there because I know CMC's been after it you know they're really after it now with

remember a few years ago We approved um the the Beckley's development with a bunch of employee housing and like I think it was like a high-end penthouse um over there near Two Rivers Park. Um that seems like a decent model. I think it was like 19 units or something, right? That one right 15 or six of them 16 I think were deeed restricted than there were a few free market. I mean I mean it's things like that I think you know. So that's another example. But but but maybe we could even you know join people together that you know um you know Yansy might have six or seven units he could do. You might have or you know I'm making numbers up but four or five and and and together you might come up with something that's 30 units or I don't know. I'm just kind of

collective capital and at a scale that you can start addressing construction costs. Right. Right. and and and people are joining together and maybe you get like I don't know you know but you figure out how do you get funding to help make something like that work and I don't know how valued you I I don't know how other organizations play into that but it's anyway I just

yeah those kind of those kind of partnerships can work they can bring a lot of of money to the table um and benefit the employers their employees um just you know every every coin has at least two sides Um, so you think about tying your housing to your employer, that has some downsides, too. You lose your job, you lose your house at the same time. That's not great. So, with those kind of questions, um, the burden falls on on us to create good rules with these deed restrictions because that's usually how these are graded, enforced through deed restrictions. You have to think really carefully about how much power to to give the you know the employers in these kind of partnerships and there it's not that these are bad things but you just have to be careful

but it's like who's in charge you know who own I mean you know I think um the government can't be in charge of everything and can't believe I'm saying that but it but it's but it's um anyway I mean I I hear what you're saying too Watkins I mean I think that's that's a real that's a real thing and that was a problem with I know the RE1 housing with some of the teachers is leaving RE1 and then you lose your H you there's it's a complicated thing but anyway I think it's um I know for a lot of those organizations they have engineers that have been there for 20 years they have you know attorneys that have been there for long long time and so anyway I think that would be

yep you can drive yourself crazy trying to create the perfect program well there's not yeah there's not the perfect program. I think you do the best you can. Yeah. And in the end, you you end up saying, "I wish we had had a housing market where we could just afford and Yeah, but that's that's not happening."

Um Oh, I I had one one other one and I think um a couple people kind of brought it up. It is is the um and you were talking about it earlier, the the um you know, for public lands, you know, that we have to put housing on. Again, another controversial thing, you know, you know, do you put like a uh a greenhouse there or do you put house, you know, I mean, it it's it's complicated. The confluence park we've talked, we haven't talked about it seems like in a long time. And there was a huge amount of work done on it maybe 10 years ago or whatever. And um and then it seems like it's kind of gone by the wayside and and needs of the community continued to evolve and what happened. And I mean it it seems like to me it it we're getting back to where we need to do some sort of master plan or at least on our big and maybe not just the big properties maybe on our properties overall kind of like you know what was talking about knowing of of being more self-guided with how we want to go with those those those properties. You know, the confluence is a kind of sacred ground for many people and everyone wants their part of how they view sacred being on there. It's a tough

Well, we do still the the 2017 confidence plan still exists. We do still use it. Yeah.

Um we've we have referred to it recently. So here's a question I I guess as we have talked through this and and a lot of expression of like you know creating for sale units um in particular and smaller scale I guess I would be curious from your standpoint as you know members of the community um recognizing that there is a requirement to go to an election to do housing on city-owned property or to sell that city-owned property. What do you think the appetite in the community and the people you talked to is around if those were smallcale for sale units? Does that change how the community views housing or that type of housing? Like how does that fit in for you and the people you you know interact with around that?

Are you suggesting that the city builds smallcale housing on city property and then sells it? Yeah. Like so if if if instead of proposing feed restricted per se feed restricted feed yeah abs affordable housing

affordable housing but that it would be for sale units on you know and at a scale because one of the things I've heard everybody talk about is that like when you look at the large scale projects that doesn't feel kind of like where you guys are maybe at or maybe the community's at. I'm really trying to dig in on kind of what your thoughts are on if you took a you know a parcel that maybe a you know 10 units could go on if those were all deed restricted for sale how do you think the community would react to that in terms of a ballot question is really what I'm getting at depends if you build another grocery store

I I will tell you um I'm going to be really blunt about the grocery store uh you guys need to get really used to what you have. Um I have been trying to land in grocery stores and communities for 20 years and that market is getting harder and harder to do. Part of it is because we're at the end of the road. Um part of it is because um the number of people that they want um to to be in the market for it. So unless you're willing to subsidize, say build it, subsidize it, guarantee some profits, it's going to you're you're just not going to magically get one to show up. I mean, I literally tried for 20 years in probably four different communities to land a grocery store and they just aren't turning up because the market's not there for what they're looking for.

There's a page on the Trader Trader Joe's site where you can request a store and make sure you point out that between Eagle and Aspen and Rifle, we got 40,000 people. Yeah.

Yeah. Part of the part of the issue part of the issue for us and I will tell you is that because you have to get that you don't want to deadhead your truck, right? you want to have it on a loop. You want to have multiple things that you're taking it to. And so just, you know, if you don't have that as part of the makeup, it is just very difficult. And I will tell you, like trying to find another one in Summit County, um you know, an alternative to to um the city market, much like what our situation is here, um that's a great, you know, you're off I7, it's a great location, it's a ton of people, all that kind of stuff. there's just not there's not an appetite to bring in um that kind of investment. Um if you want to pay enough, you want to give enough back in terms of sales tax dollars and land and um money for the building and all of those kinds of things, I'm sure you could eventually get there, but it's just not like it's not for lack of trying that we don't have a grocery store in town.

So, I would say that our community in my opinion would um probably be preferable to smaller um houses if we were going if it was going to go on a ballot um and not to sell it to a a big corporation and have them build the houses. I don't know financially how successful like Glenwood could be in that because I would say I would think that if you get the land for free and you pony up the money for the houses and then you sell the houses then isn't that income replaces replacing the building of the houses and they're probably cookie cutter so you don't have like a bunch of designs. Um, I think I think Glenn would probably would get behind something like that more than if you pay if you if you sell the land and have somebody else build something and then have some of the properties de restricted. I would think that Glenn would want to have a piece of the properties and make sure they stay um affordable.

And you say smaller unit, you mean like smaller floor area is what you're talking about? Yeah, like you know more more of them but not density-wise apartment complex. I think like 10 to 15 units as opposed to 100 or like a 600 foot apartment as opposed to 12 or both. I think um little single family tiny homes, you know. I I saw something when I was again back at CMC, but in in Summit that and I don't know, you probably know Carl, what happened with this, but they were doing a development on a large property was just between CMC and Bre.

Um, and they were doing it was it was a development where it was more um dense in the middle, you know, so it would be more like condos or that sort of thing. And then it got into single f, you know, less dense as you moved out. But it was and it was a long it was a long longterm project. But it but it was but it was trying to make affordability for different people on a deed restricted kind of thing of what people could afford. You know, it's kind of like when you talk about condom minimization. I think it's it's good, but it's maybe not. Maybe you have a young family that's you have three kids or whatever sort of thing and and you want this a small single family or I don't know. I'm I'm just

Or like the little houses at CRMS. Have you seen those houses at CRMS? Just like a nice livable size that you can afford. Yeah. And you can But it's different sizes, right? Because there we're not all the same and what our needs are. I think is kind of the What What do you think, Pat? What do you think about that? Um, well, the easiest way to pull your mic down there. I guess the easiest way to drive down property values is crime, blight, and chronic unemployment. Um, but we're not going in that direction.

Uh, I'm I'm I'm sort of a communion when it comes to this. Uh I've been fee appraiser in the valley for 25 years. So I've done a lot of uh deed restriction appraisals up in Pittton County. So I've seen a lot of different variety. I've seen uh you know the condominium that no one will put any money into because there's no need to because they'll sell it for full price regardless. So there's no one's fixing up the place.

Uh I've seen uh mobile homes sell they're completely tear downs but they still have to sell for full price because that's how it works. I personally dealt with the one where uh a family was in a deed restricted house, but they had bought a house outside Pigton County, wanted to make sure that they were going to like it there. So, they stayed in the house for a year while the deed restricted unit was empty before they made the decision to sell it. And I'm like, there's people waiting in line for these properties and you'd have to have enforcement. So, when it comes to deed restricted properties and affordable housing, it's sort of a we can't tease everybody here in Glenwood. I mean, everybody wants to move here and you'll never ever beat that unless we come, you know. So, I don't know how we help out the local employees other than maybe incentivizing employers to build stuff and help them. But, man, you know, deed restricted 75% of people in Picking County in Aspen, year- round residents are indeed restricted housing

and there's still not enough. There's not still not enough. So, I don't know. I mean, I hate love to say we have a bullet or some kind of fix it, but I don't think there is. And I mean, the confluence has been empty since how long? We've been sitting on that property for how long? No one's built anything. Nothing's gone up. I mean, I don't think the city's in a position to fix stuff like this. So, I don't know. Sorry. I'll get off my soap box.

It's good. I have one other question about the mall. We just, you know, I was not thrilled about reszoning all of that because I don't feel like that's going to helped I felt like it helped one person, the owner, but I don't feel like it helped the rest of us because he didn't have any plans. Now he just has property that's worth more money and he can't build housing on it. I think we were all really excited that it could be some density housing and now he just We knew it couldn't be housing because of the Ross lease. I know.

So, I don't shop there anymore. Me and I never shopped there, but it's a big piece of property that could be a lot of housing and and now we changed the zoning. Have we had any sort of applications for any sort of thing to go in there with the reasonzoning? I mean, just feels like there's uh rumors of conversations, but no no specific details. Yeah, maybe some hope on the horizon. So, John, what do you kind of quiet here for a little bit?

I I'm only here because I live in multif family housing, right? The entire time I've lived in Lwood Springs, I've lived in multif family housing. I can't afford a single family house.

So to completely write off condos, apartments, town houses, I think is a well obviously personally I'm opposed to it, but I think it's a a tactical error. And I'm not saying we're writing it off, I guess, but like to downplay the economy of scale that you get when you build multif family housing, I I it it's not even close building single family homes to even a duplex, right? So, you know, I think it probably goes back to education. Like if we can't both have our priority be we want more cheaper affordable housing and only single family housing. So I don't know how we get to a happy medium but it feels like we want the the the unicorn that doesn't exist. So I I I don't know that those were thoughts. I guess I don't have a solution.

You figured Glennwood out.

I absolutely see the value in apartments and condos and town houses. Um whether they're for rent or for sale, I mean being for sale, they would probably be closer to starter home reasonable like first home, you know, opportunities to keep folks in the valley. Um, I think part of my point with the size of some of the developments that we've that we've had is I feel they're just overwhelming for the scale of our town. Like the I know where the property is that you live in and you probably know all your neighbors. There's like what eight or 10 units in there, six. That's I like that size for the neighborhood. And then it doesn't have so much of a demographic um effect on a neighborhood. like say it's really high-end and you've got a bunch of sort of trailers around, you know, it's it's uh it can still offer the mix of housing that we're trying to go for. Um but and as a way to compromise looking for the unicorn, maybe a tiny house could also be an entrylevel purchase and they're going to have to scale way back, but if you want that yard, you know, that's what you've got to do. You got to get rid of all your other stuff if you want to own your house and it's going to be small. Um, so I think a combination of those type of things might get us a little closer to our goals.

So one of the things Trent and I had a brief conversation about um Trent's now like oh god um you you know we have a tendency to talk about housing in terms of new housing, right? creating new housing. And something that we were kicking around and talking about, and this goes to the um allowing duplexes or not, is do we does it make any sense to parse out conversion of existing structures versus new construction on allowing like say a duplex? And what I'm thinking about is when you have, you know, any number of single family homes in town, you have folks potentially who are either trying to get into the market or are at a point in their life that maybe they want to downsize, but they don't want to have to, you know, what do you downsize to if you own a home in in, you know, Glenwood, right? Um, does it make sense to when we're not talking about a tear down and rebuilding a duplex, but of dividing, you know, creating some incentives or creating some kind of a program around converting existing single family residences into uh duplexes or condos or allowing that to occur to allow a new purchase opportunity. um you know and really you're not changing form and scale in a neighborhood necessarily, but is there something in that that makes sense? Because I think so often we just focus on new construction, right? We're always focused on what does it look like when we put up six new, you know, a sixplex or, you know, four new duplexes in a neighborhood. What does it look like if we're really talking about converting maybe a single family residence into a duplex so that two people could have ownership instead of just one? I think that would solve a lot of problems. We just got to get the property owners on board and you know have them evaluate their properties and see uh you know what they could do with them. But in general I think you're

walking through the neighborhood you'd rather see a house being remodeled and converted than torn down and rebuilt. I know this has happened in my neighborhood and it sort of leaves intact the the existing historic fabric that we so admire here. Um, but how do you reach those folks and let them know, you know, that there's we're here to help guide them redevelop their their older property? How can we incentivize keeping those homes out of the landfill? You know, it's it's much more efficient to to save an old house than to tear it down and build a new one. How can we reach people and get them excited about those opportunities? Is there funding mechanism? Is there education and outreach? I certainly think it's worthwhile as well, but I just don't I mean, not to be negative, Nancy, but duplexes have the highest parking requirement per unit, and I would imagine parking would kill the majority of definitely downtown projects.

Yeah. And I and I think that's someplace that you guys would have to I mean, you know, it may be an area where you have to give on, right? Um and there again, we're thinking about downtown. Um, I think about my neighborhood, like I live over in, you know, West Glenwood. There's a lot of really big houses in West Glennwood. Um, and those houses are right like in that top end of that demographic of how much do they cost now and you know, what might you do with them? And so I think that, you know, when we're thinking outside of the downtown core, um if we're thinking over in the Red Mountain neighborhood, um if we're thinking about um you know, the south, you know, um the Polo neighborhood, if we're thinking there are a number of places where sort of conventional, you know, 5,000 foot lot, house on it, like are there opportunities there? And I know it's something that we're talking a lot about in other communities as well about like how do you how do you how do you create more with what you have and scale it so that people can afford to be there. Um you know downtown is always going to be really tough um for a wide variety of reasons. Tight lots uh already very dense tough parking on some streets. You know, I you know, I live down, you know, I spent a couple of years downtown, uh, as well in the last three, so I've got a pretty good sense of what that feels like, too.

You know, to me, I mean, I think it it it it seems like if you were going to do that, you would have to have a um focused effort maybe from community development or from some someone. And I'm I'm you know first I'm thinking you pick like polo you know which is that's a place I aspire a lot of us aspire to end up in polo that's the soils are good the land's flat I mean it's all those all those good things it's all that I mean

yeah but but but I mean do you focus on because it's kind of like what Carolyn was saying you know how would you go out and um educate people and you know maybe you pick a pick a neighbor you know a community and West Glennwood. Maybe some of that's in the county, but but but to say, "Hey, we'd like to have a community meeting of our area and just kind of throw out something that we think we could do and we have some funding venues that are available that if anyone's thinking about this, we can help you." And maybe that's the navigator person or what, but you know, because I think, you know, if if you just kind of throw it out there, I don't it seems pretty darn tough for people to try to to do it on their own with without some um education, proddding kind of thing, you know, and and um I mean, I don't know how many people be up for doing it because it it also sounds sounds kind of daunting, you know. I mean somewhat to you know I mean I think taking my place but I mean you know you take think of a lot of houses and

you know you have to be creative a mind of how do you do that and how do you split it up kind of thing but I mean it sounds like a good like a good idea but but you need to I think be have some sort of programmatic focus obviously. Yeah. And I and I think really where it would I I guess where we're talking about it in a couple of other places is like do you allow um an ADU to be kind of minimized, right? And if you're living someplace and you have an ADU in theory that could be a separate ownership interest, right? So I think that's kind of where the genesis of it was was like how do you how do you take you know how do you utilize that?

I think that's good and it could be open-ended where it could be these are options of things you could do that you Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of the things that I'm hearing are kind of centered around that simplify things, make things easier, maybe who cares if you have two kitchens in one home. I mean, just those type of conversations maybe um are are worthwhile. That and the other piece that I feel like we can put all this into is a education kind of campaign.

There's a lot of houses that um people who don't live here own. I mean, with down the street from me, I see these people there maybe two weeks out of the entire year. I'm like, I mean, yes, it's their right, but can we can we encourage them to rent it? I mean, can we charge them? Uh, there's another one right behind my house. All the utilities are on, the heat's on, the water's on, the place is hoarded up to the ceiling, and you can't even walk through there. So, obviously, no one's living there. They all had to move somewhere else. Can we What do you do with those people? I mean, there's a good like three or fourbedroom house sitting there not used.

Yeah. I mean, one of the things um and I think CML um you know, Colorado Municipal League is picking this up um from CAST to talk about is is the idea whether you call it a vacant home tax or you call it a sales tax equalization. um you know recognizing that those homes are require services require police, fire, all of those things to be around even though nobody's living in them. Um so one potential bill um in this legislative session will be centered around uh providing that for stat we statutory towns and cities and counties to be able to uh at least ask that tax question under Taber. Obviously a home roll municipality like Glenwood could do that now but it's picking up a lot of steam. Uh Steamboat's talking about it crusted but talking about a number of communities are because of exactly that that there is housing available that is not being used. And so how do you um either make up for that fact so that you have a revenue stream to do something else or make it feel a lot better to maybe have somebody in there six or nine months out of the year rather than pay an enhanced tax rate. uh just so that you can have your empty home and use it two weeks a year, four weeks a year, something like that. So, it's definitely uh that the empty home thing is a big one for a lot of communities, especially in you know, resort and quasi resort areas um that are, you know, Glenwood is reasonably affordable uh to buy a second home in and leave empty, right? So, which is crazy, but it is

compared to Aspen. Yeah. Yeah. What drives me crazy? Whenever there was a house for sale on our block, it always was bought by somebody not from here and then not lived in by those people. Either renters, which I like renters, um but um or short-term rentals, you know, which I guess we need that for tourism.

I'm gonna I'm gonna go back to something. I mean, Pat kind of kicked my head a little bit a little bit on the on the um you know, the confluence park supposedly there's a master plan out there and whatnot, but but it it it is you know, we talk about city land and that and you know, we spent a lot of time talking about it and then nothing's happened. It seems like it's been 10 years and maybe there's still a master plan out there. I don't know. No one knows what the hell it is or I mean seriously of of of what and and Vogler Park would be another one and I don't even you know I know we've sat in here before and gone through looked at the looked at the uh city map of where all the parcels are that are free. Well, I think it was probably with the comp plan when we did the comp plan and we're saying what's the plan with developments in all these areas and um you know that might be an interesting thing to pull up and look at again and but how do you how do we try to gain some traction with some of these things we're talking about on some of these properties or or are they just going to sit there because because we know the community can't agree on what's going to go there? It's a tough battle. I mean, I don't know. I don't know what the the thing is, but holy moly, it's a lot of land.

There's a little parcel on I think it's Riverside Street down there behind um sort of the the dog park where the goats are. Um and I know the city just purchased that like a couple of years ago because I remember seeing a sign and nothing happened. It doesn't even say it's public property. I don't know if it's open or was going to be a park, but I mean that'll be a lovely place to put a little housing little tiny house community. I don't know if you if if we're going to know if Glenwood would agree to it unless we ask Glenwood. And right now we haven't allowed for the approval of tiny houses.

We we can we can take care of that one. Um, no, but I I I think that, you know, it this group could certainly be a catalyst to kind of, you know, promote something like that. Um, but you know, it will take political will of counsel to kind of say, okay, this is good enough. Let's move this forward. Let's put it on a ballot and let's see if we want want this project or not. I mean there there's been

Yeah, there's been a couple the the benedict, you know, that went in and I know that wasn't on city land, but I was kind of struggling with that sitting in here of that being built there and I I think came out to be a nice from my perspective came out to be a nice thing and I and you know, even though the habitat one is like seems like someone I don't know, they killed some people or something. They're not working there. But I mean, but but but I think that's a good that's a I mean, there there there's a lot of little places like that that that aren't necessarily big projects

that that are that that are things that that we try to promote to make that happen. And both of those projects are affordable projects. I think the Benedict is I've just heard talking to some people who live there think it's awesome. And um so anyway, I you know it I know several people have talked about some vacant land that we've had that we have and how do we gain some traction and it doesn't need to be always a big thing but you know the confluence and some other those are big properties of how do we maybe pull something off for housing or you know shoot I don't know but

a little bit of the element right like just you none of these I think so often we're trying to hit it out of the park and solve everything and all of the ideas you guys have talked about. If you do three or four units that way, like all of a sudden it starts adding up to making a difference without changing that core value. And that could be like you know you were talking about the public private partnership kind of thing that could be a I mean it anyway I don't know.

Yes. And with the something like the the confluence, you know, the two sides of the coin are are one, it's you have to have the ballot measure and and there's a lot of uncertainty and that's hard. But the other side is that you have certainty of process and timeline. We would set it up in a way that we would plan this is when it's going to be on the ballot and you probably want to do it for a big like presidential year election when there's going to be a lot of turnout. So you know that going in and you can work backwards from there and and plan it well, which is pretty soon. three years. What's the interest doing? I think I think people That's right.

I I mean I I was not part of the keep Glenwood Glenwood campaign or anything, but from what I what I it felt like they just didn't want Glenwood to sell out property. Like they didn't want them to sell out to build apartment complexes um to for other companies to make money. Do you know what I mean? I don't know if it could stay within the city of Glenwood rather than selling it to another big corporation. It will require a vote for them. So, what

it would require for the city of Glennwood Springs to do a housing project, they have to they have to go to the voters for that housing project. Not even but not selling it to a corporation. Yeah. No, not not selling to the corporation, but whatever they do, they have to house. Well, yeah. So,

but I think that's why they wanted the city. I think it's why they wanted citizens to be able to approve so they could tell what was going to happen. Are we going to sell it to some big company and have them put some big apartment complex on it or then they can make decisions about how it's developed? you know, is it going to be developed more small scale, a few buildings here, a few condos there, or is it going to be some that was I think that was the fear that drove that because wasn't one that one of the options. I feel like in the comprehensive plan, that was one of the options was to there's different ways that we could deal with the property and one of them was to just sell the whole land and to a corporation and let them build and own it.

Yeah. You're maybe talking about the strategic housing plan. Yeah. So, I mean, you could you could do it however you want when you control the property, but anytime we would sell land like that, we would it would be an exchange for something, right? I mean, it wouldn't be give us this money and build something free market. It would always be deed restricted. It would always be affordable. Yeah, we have if we have control, then we're going to have a lot to say about what it looks like, too. And it doesn't all have to be housing either. You know, there could be some space for nonprofit buildings that's looking for a new home. When you control the land, you have more choices. Sure. So, has this been helpful for you guys?

I I think so. Oh, I mean I was just going to say I mean like we have a couple categories that we could think about um you know trying to center around and a couple ideas and helps keep the conversation going. I think it was good good use of a meeting that didn't have anything else to talk about. One of those things where you feel like you didn't resolve it though because it's not going to happen. Well, I again I I guarantee you if we implement something around every single idea that we had tonight, 20 years from now, our successors are still going to be having the same conversation and figuring out how we can help to fix this.

And that's okay. I mean, you know, it's it's going to take a different different ideas and at different times, you know, two decades from now.

Maybe the city can come up with some loans to encourage people to develop part of their existing properties as ADUs, you know, garages, basements, attics, and I know you mentioned that in the housing thing. I asked for more information and then I brought that back to the preservation commission because they were thinking of some sort of loans, you know, for slightly different uses, but also the city helping to fund uh maintenance or, you know, historic stuff on buildings. But maybe maybe that would be some way to encourage homeowners or at least let them know that this is an option. Like give them some guidance, give them a a packet, you know, introduce them to engineers and contractors, show them pictures, you know.

Well, I think I think one thing you said right up front is pretty key is is education. whatever we come up with, how do we communicate with the community and to get feedback both ways, not to say, "Here's what we think the answer is." you need to listen to what we're saying to how do you have a two-way conversation to to make that happen? But then when you get to the big election, I and I agree with you what you said, Watkins, is that that that you have a higher likelihood of success that everyone's kind of more not everyone because that can it's impossible, but at least over 50% maybe. I mean I but I think the education's a big deal because it's hard for things to do and it's definitely not one-sizefits-all. That's for sure.

And does the city want to be in the housing business? That's something that came up before. Right now we're not entirely set up with that. I mean, there are great strides ahead in, you know, the housing uh committees and conversations, but I don't know if that's something that that the city really wants to manage. Maybe it could be managed regionally. Um I'm not sure the government sponsored housing is is the beall or endall, but if they buy it, wouldn't it be theirs? Yeah. Like if it's deed like you buy it, but it's deed restricted when you buy it. Yeah,

it would not be in the city of Glenwood, but you can't sell it for whatever if it was for sale on astronomical. You would have to sell it within the restrictions of in terms of Glenwood would be they would have to sell them initially, but then it would be owned by somebody else.

Still have to have and that's like um you know this somewhat combined housing authority. Part of the reason why it was created via all of the various jurisdictions is somebody has to administer those sales. Somebody has to do enforcement. Somebody has to track it um and all of that. And so it it does take resources to do that. Um you know and and so there would be some level of engagement. Certainly regional is always better because you're spreading out those costs over a number of jurisdictions as opposed to just trying to do it on your own. So, my parting words uh for tonight, if I may, is that no one except for Steamboat Springs has a silver bullet to the housing problems that we all have. So, the the solution is to do lots of things and do what you can.

Steamboat. Yeah. What's Well, they got $24 million property given to them. Oh. and they cannot get any affordable housing built. Didn't you get voted down? Yes. Big time. They said iron your thing on. Um yeah, they had a the Brown Ranch was donated to the city for uh employee housing, deed restricted affordable housing, right? And is nothing but a political hot potato because the city has to pay for it

and the people who are already in the city are like, why are we paying for other people to get to move here? No one paid for me to get to move here. Um the infrastructure was enormously expensive. So yes, it's been interesting to follow some the Brown Ranch

big election shot down. Now they're trying to figure out how to come back and figure this out. and and in general I would say that um I think we're going to see you know these things are cyclical in nature but there is a huge anti-growth anti- um not one more person town can't change that's going on in communities all over right now right um there's been so much pressure and kind of postcoid it just all of that came together and I think that um to your point about all the various reasons why that ballot measure passed I think one of the big ones were that people believe that it would stop growth. Um and it it may in some ways, but you know the kind of pressure and then um kind of to your point just couple of closing thoughts on on sort of what's going on on the state level. Um you know a couple of years ago there was a statutory change that you can't limit growth, right? And so that that's a you know that is kind of a big change in terms of some communities were putting up the gates and saying there can only be seven new units a year or 100 or whatever it would be and that is no longer uh legal in Colorado. And so that kind of changes that analysis that you have to plan for what could happen rather than saying it can't happen. Should we finish with this topic?

I think if you want to be, we can be. I think we get got some stuff to some stuff to chew on. I think we beat it. Beat it. Okay. Um, we'll move on to commissioner comments. I'm good. You're good. I want to see a greenhouse on the confluence. Thank you. My party just highlight the uh regionalism. That's where a lot of our efforts need to lie. Okay. Director,

uh, nothing else for me. Um, again, I apologize that our our item was uh, delayed tonight, but we should have that next month. Um, and we can probably also continue some conversations. I think we we did want to talk also about short-term rentals at some point, too. um of concern for some of those larger multif family developments and how many of those units could be utilized for short-term rentals. So maybe forthcoming on that. Um we have scheduled some interviews for Thursday for our housing manager, development manager position. Um I think that's about it. We see next week or next month. What's that?

There's a planning application next month. Yes. Yeah, there was supposed to be one tonight, but the paper um messed up the noticing. Does say how big or where or what? It's a variance application.

Um so, so next steps from what we just went through now, is that is that um are you guys going to put it together some way and then I mean so we can and then are we going to drill down in some or what what's kind of the next steps? I think I think we spent more time talking about some of those those two kind of issues than I expected us to. I think maybe we provide maybe an update in December or January, but but I yes, I would say we would we would put those together. And I was taking notes, keep conversation like that,

continue the conversation, maybe think of some potential um actions or steps that could be taken along with those. Just putting it down on paper. I mean, it's not like we have to do it, but you know, maybe putting together a sort of plan of action of of what we'd want to do associated with those topics. Does any of the housing commission have input that might help guide us or like we were saying, they're mostly dealing with grants and federal monies and maybe we share with them too. They have anything they want us to look at. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. when they have um topics or or recommendations, we will we'll definitely bring them up to y'all.

And our next meeting is when? December 16. 16. December 16th. Steak China gourmet. China gourmet. Is that this? Sounds good. Said he was bringing the eggnog and some antlers, some stuff. Maybe. Maybe you're gonna wear some antlers. Sweet. Okay. I think we are