Police Accountability Board Agendas - Regular Meeting

Welcome to the Police Accountability Board, 07/16/2025 meeting. First, this is an evacuation instructions, 1st Floor Hearing Room. In the event of an emergency, please use the exit doors to your left and right in the back of the room. Follow the exit signs to the outside. As you exit, please move to a safe location away from the building for your safety and allow emergency response personnel uninterrupted access.

Please do not reenter the building until instructed. If you need special assistance, plea please inform us now. Thank you. The meeting has been called to order. And the first item on the agenda is approval of the minutes from 06/18/2025 and the closed session minutes for 06/18/2025. Has everybody had a chance to review the minutes? Mhmm. Wanna have any motions for approval then?

I move to approve.

Second? Second. All in favor say aye. Just raise your hands. Aye. Aye. Approved. Next, have the introduction of the new members. Please welcome to our new member, Anthony Bowie. Okay.

Kim Hansen and Timothy Toston. Welcome. The new members were appointed by the county executive Fitzwater and confirmed by the county council on July 1. There is normally a discussion vice chair, the Police Accountability Board chair, has not yet been confirmed by the county council. The chair is scheduled to be confirmed by the council on July 22.

At that time, we can have a motion to suspend the rules procedure of the election of the vice chair in the July meeting and add this to the October. Is there any objections to that? That's what will be done then. Next is discussion from the law enforcement agencies. Step up, please, gentlemen.

Shannon,

can you do the the election of a vice chair? Can you do that on a vote to suspend the rules?

Mhmm. Sure.

Thank you.

Surprise. Here.

What's one one thing we could talk about is it's just we have the new members here, so it's a chance. You guys can introduce yourselves to the new members that are here, and then we'll just go on and have a discussion of what you guys would like to have topics for future meetings so that they are prepared. I know we last time, it was kind of a question and answer, but I know there are people that have certain things that they want to discuss or have discussions on. So if we have topics for future meetings, we'll be prepared.

Thank you.

So go ahead, guys.

Alright. I'm lieutenant Matt Carrotta with the Frederick Police Department. Right now, I'm the commander of our professional services division, which oversees our internal affairs unit.

Lieutenant Jeff Hyatt with the sheriff's office currently oversee the office of policy and compliance with handles accreditation and internal affairs.

David Armstrong, currently the chief of the Fairmont Police Department, retired from the Frederick City Police Department in 2011 and I started there in 1990.

Thank you. Would you like to go first?

With the limited information that was on the agenda, I'm not sure what we're looking for. We're looking for topics to discuss at a future time, or is there any particular topic that a member would like us to address?

I would say both.

Does does anybody do any of the members do does anybody have any topics that they would like discussed at future meetings? Anything off the top of your head?

And not to cut off the chief. The reason why is, I think for each of us, we had different functions for the agency that we're responsible for. So if board members had questions about training, it would be more appropriate to make sure the training services commander's here or hiring and patrol investigations, etcetera.

And just on top of that, the I know you guys have changed hands a couple times since we were here, we did attend regularly. And then the invites didn't come for a couple months, and now the invites are back. So we're happy to be back, and whatever wherever you guys wanna kick off from, we're happy to do it.

Thank you.

Here, I'll kick off a question then. For anyone, I'll direct that to the Chief, but just for anyone that wants to answer. Obviously, the PAB has been around here now for a couple of years. How do you think your respective agency departments, agencies, units have viewed that? How do you think the perception is? Do you feel that it's gotten better? Do you think it's do your personnel and you yourselves feel that it's everything that you thought it was gonna be? Do you think it's a little bit different? What is your perception of the PAB and how it's gone from theory to practice? And what do you think we can do to kind of continue to improve along those lines?

Again, my first perception of the Police Accountability Board was that we would walk in and people would start stabbing us with knives and hatches. I was very pleased to find a group of people who were all interested in working together in trying to identify and address any problems in Frederick County. I think, largely, what we found in Frederick County based on the reports from the PAB is that we don't have a issue with rampant police misconduct in Frederick County. And that's refreshing to know having worked here for for many years and my belief in the law enforcement officers that are currently serving. As to the Thurmont officers view of the PAB and the ACC, I think everybody has adjusted to it and it's no longer a topic of daily discussion, it's an accepted way of doing business.

So I don't believe that the officers are any longer like I was looking for somebody to come after them. So

Thank you.

For the sheriff's office, would I would echo that. I've been in this position for almost a year and a half, and I've been to, I think, every meeting that was, like, publicly available. We routinely fill questions. I know there was one earlier this year, I believe, doctor Chandler, where you had an ongoing thing with, like, Frederick City trying to get ahold of somebody. And, like, that was able to get resolved in answering routine questions about routine procedural stuff that within my purview, I'm still answering. I haven't stopped the vehicle in, like, eight years. So if you asked a traffic stop question, I'm probably not the right person to ask. But that's kind of what we're looking for. If there's specific topics that the board wants to address, that would be helpful in the for future meetings.

I don't have a specific topic, but I think is there any any areas that y'all think that we could serve you better? You know, either trends or something that we could actually, take on as a challenge for the board.

The only, I guess, statement I would make is if since you aren't required for any type of training I know at least the Frederick City Police Department, we put on citizen Citizens Police Academy every year, usually every year. I would highly encourage at least some of you, if not all of you, to attend it. It's one night a week for I think it's eight to ten weeks. It's nothing crazy. But it gives you a good idea on uses of force and just some general topics of things that might be helpful for you in your annual report. So I'm not sure when that date is, but I would encourage you to attend, at least gain knowledge and and insight into what police officers go through or calls for service they attend, things like that.

You say that's Citizens Police Academy?

Yes, sir.

Sarah, is it possible for you to follow-up and, find out what that date might be or collaborate, you know, with with you to determine what the date might be so that we all know?

Absolutely. I'll work with Thank you. Lieutenant Corrado, and he can send it to me, then I will get that out to you all.

Thank you. So one of the focus areas that the Police Accountability Board, you know, has been discussing has been, you know, having more of a presence in the community and community engagement. And we're just now kicking that off. And just so you all know, picked up on when Sarah first announced about the vice chair. So my term as the chair ended June 30, but I still remain a member of this board.

So hence Shannon filling in tonight for the chair until a new chair is elected. But one of the focus areas is community engagement. And I know just, you know, through the news, social media, you know, there's a lot of things and activities that, you know, the law enforcement agencies are engaged in. And I know, you know, where we've, started off building a calendar of things that, you know, we'd like to participate in. But if there's activities, I don't know if you do things like with the Boys and Girls Club or other agencies around Frederick County, it might be something worth, you know, us kind of showing up, you know, or having some representation at some of these events just so that, you know, we begin, just again, to show the partnership, to show, you know, or to educate the community about what the Police Accountability Board is, what it does, why, you know, why it exists.

I just think of it as just another opportunity to, you know, educate the the public and our community about the board.

Just so the board is aware, there actually was a Boys and Girls Club event today. Sheriff's office, fire rescue, state's attorney's office, and I believe Frederick City Police also had personnel there. So those are things that, like, at least the local agencies. I know I don't know what level of involvement there is there, but I know you guys have local events as well. So

What what about the nights out? Are they still in August?

I believe so.

Okay. So if we could maybe have those dates as well because that might be an opportunity for us to be within in the community and let people know that we're here. So if, and I hate to ask Sarah again, but perhaps, you could follow-up for us on that with, each of the different agencies and find out when they are. Because when I was director of the center, I know they weren't always all the same night. You know? So if we could get some kind of listing of that, that would be wonderful.

Absolutely. Whatever. I will work with each of them, and whatever information they can give me, I'll relay to everyone.

I I can tell you that Brunswick's is August 5, and I'm 99% sure the sheriff's office is, and I just talked to chief Armstrong. There's the the national national night out is August 5.

So,

Brunswick is hosting ours. We should have our flyers out pretty soon, but we're gonna ours at 99 Cummings Drive right by the high school.

Okay. Thank you.

You're welcome.

I have a a question, and and this is to address the elephant in the room, and it's ice. It concerns me as as a pastor. It concerns me as an individual who has relatives who they're not immigrants, but they are US citizens that were born from foreign parents. And it concerns me on what is being done. What type of communication can you give us that you can put our minds at ease, or what type of collaboration is being done to ensure that the law is upheld and not stepped on?

I will take that one. The sheriff's office has two bureaus. Corrections and one is law enforcement. So law enforcement focuses on the day to day operations. And for the purposes of the ACC, that's who ACC would have jurisdiction over. Are two different bureaus. Correctional officers are not sworn law enforcement. They are they don't they don't have arrest powers and things of that nature. Operationally, for the law enforcement bureau, we do not have any participation with that. It is strictly limited to corrections bureau as part of the intake process.

K. Follow

me here. I am the assistant pastor of a small church. There's one entrance. My wife is the pastor. I no longer sit in the pulpit. I sit by the back door because I don't know who's coming in under what pretense. Just because you have a mask on your face and a vest that says police, unfortunately, these supposed ICE agents have gotten out of hand. The administration has used the military to do law enforcement, which is against the law. The military is not trained to do that. And so there's a lot of tension, especially within the houses of worship, on what is what is the plan?

What is the backup plan? What is the tertiary plan? What is it that we can do within the confines of the law without breaking somebody's jaw to protect our families and our congregants that the the law will help us uphold the protection. Because right now, between constitutional rights, the protection under the law, it is being being stamper severely, and it's a huge concern. You may not have the answers for it, but I'm a product of the of the fifties.

So I've seen the Jim Crow. I I've seen the abuse of the constitution and and makeshift laws, and I've seen it all over again. And we we have got to collectively stand up and and push back. And this is one where I don't mind locking harms with you guys. It's like, let's make a change. Let's have a discussion in making a change. It's it's a real issue. That's it.

I'll take this one.

As far as I'm aware aware, Frederick County still has the two eighty seven g program that's active. And what happens is if a subject is arrested, they're taken to central booking. If they're held or in that process, the correctional officers will ask them questions. And through that questioning process, they will determine whether that person has a warrant or a deportation warrant or anything with federal government or with federal ICE or anybody else. If they do, the Frederick County Detention Center holds them until the federal authorities can come pick them up.

So because we have that relationship and because we have that program, there's no reason for ICE to go into churches and into baseball games and wherever else this is allegedly happening that they're going in what's happening in Los Angeles, from what I understand, is there's no cooperation between the local authorities and the federal government. So instead of somebody who's arrested that has a detainer, the jails are letting them out into the community. So ICE has this warrant for that person. Instead of going to the jails and picking them up and making a nice, easy, safe transfer, they're released into the community. So if they're in the community and they're at a birthday party and that's the day that ICE gets information that that person is at that birthday party, then it's their job to go get this person.

This person has a warrant or a detainer. They're wanted. It's the federal government's job to arrest that person. So if they have information that they're there at that particular time, they go and they arrest and make that arrest. Unfortunately, when it happens in a public place like that, there's a lot of people that are around and other questions are asked. And so I think that's I I think it's there's a lot of misleading publicity probably on both sides with this issue. So

it's

I I don't think it's as easy as well, one, if if you're the security person at your church, then you should absolutely be at the back of the door. And I and I don't think that's to prevent the police from coming in. I think, you know, with all of the shootings that we've had at churches throughout the years, that every church should have security. And this church and like we work with our churches down in Brunswick and try to provide them a little bit of training of what to look for and everything else as far as who's armed and who's not armed and what they can do. I understand where you're going with your questions, and I'd be more than happy to sit down with you and have a conversation with it.

But politicians make these laws, and then politicians get upset when the laws are enforced. And, you know, it's the reason we have a police accountability board is because of a a handful of police officers who did things wrong. There wasn't anybody in Frederick County. There's there's and I've said it before. There's there's a couple agencies in Maryland that might need this Police Accountability Board.

I don't think any of the agencies in Frederick County or Frederick City need this Police Accountability Board. Not that it's a bad thing, cause it's good. And I think it's great that we're all here and you guys have treated us right. I've had cases in front of the ACC and they have all been very fair. So I don't have an issue with doing it, but we're Frederick County isn't the reason that there's Police Accountability Board. Your larger metropolitan cities that have police departments that have 4,000 people or whatever, 400 people in them that don't have the supervision that they have. There are there bad cops? Absolutely. Is every cop bad? Absolutely not. So

I love playing chess with you. But, you know, to to your point, yeah, you're you're gonna have people that are gonna disrupt the flow of life no matter where you go. And whether the PAB is needed here or or not, it is being noticed. I I just received the Maryland's PAB report. Interesting reading.

We're making a difference, and and and that's the important aspect of it. Getting to the bigger picture, I I wanna go back to the elephant in the room. You have you have arrest authority. You you have detention authority. Where it really gets messy is when you have, and this is beyond your jurisdiction, is when ICE is holding people in cells that are designed to maybe hold fifteen, twenty people, there are three times that number.

And it becomes the the the human morality aspect of all of this is what upsets me. In the nineteen sixties, the American government had internment camps for Japanese Americans, and here we go again. And it's in in in my head, knowing knowing my history, we gotta make sure that we don't go back over those same thresholds again. And I'm not picking on you guys to bring up anything. I just I wanna address an issue that we really can't avoid talking about, if you will. So that that was my my only point, not to hold you guys accountable, but just to have a subject about.

I'd like to make a comment on that. My background, career law enforcement and the other day I was having some coffee with a guy I used to work with. And his great concern and I I believe he has a good reason and concern is if you go out to arrest somebody and you don't have any ID on at all, and we've seen that, and you arrest a retired officer who's carrying a gun, he's gonna end up shooting the ICE officers. In a recent court case that he brought up to me that I was unaware of, that a judge told ICE, you can't arrest people unless you have a warrant, or you have that probable cause. And their identity, what they look like and the way they speak is not probable cause.

Now, I don't know where that occurred at, where that incident, but I could see something like that occurring. And the only reason I say that is we always had a warrant or probable cause which you all go with. I mean, you have to have one or the other. And you just can't go rounding people up just because of the way they look. And it that's what it appears that some of it is going that way. And I also agree with you that there are some bad policemen out there but the majority are good. And I think that is an issue for civil rights, and it's an issue for democracy. If you can grab somebody off the street, without a warrant and then put them away someplace with no hearing, that's not a democracy. The That's and I'm not saying that they're all doing that. I'm just saying that in a recent court case.

The same time the PAB came into play, Maryland changed a lot of rules. One of those was every officer must wear, even if they're doing a raid, must have their name and ID number Mhmm. Visible. Anytime an officer in Maryland interacts with a citizen, they're supposed to start with their name and their identification number. So while those issues are concerning at a federal level, I don't think they really apply to a state level.

And while we could discuss them, it's it's, worthy discussion, but I think it might be outside the purview of the PAB and why we're why we're here. I mean, the two eighty seven g program, if the sheriff's department wanted to give a breakdown on how that works. Other than that, every Maryland law enforcement officer is governed by the governed by the rules, and you're not gonna have a unnamed masked Maryland law enforcement officer grabbing somebody without a warrant. So I don't don't wanna say it doesn't concern me, but for our The scope of perp yeah. Control.

Yeah. Outside the the purview of what we're here for. So I would

I agree with that.

May I extend that a little bit? In addition, even if it's not relevant or hasn't been at state level locally, people will blur. You know, it's not just like bad cops versus like poor line good cops, but federal agencies will make people doubt state agencies and so on. So there's that issue of trust. We've also seen in Minnesota somebody impersonating a police officer claiming to be police when they weren't.

So I think in between people being pulled off the street, and there's a video of this by, you know, people claiming to be police or have police authority who won't identify themselves and wear masks. And then on the other hand, you have people impersonating police to commit crimes. So I think and and hopefully, remains hypothetical, but there there is a possible emergence of doubt in terms of who is exercising police power legitimately and who isn't. So I I think it is worth kinda having on the radar, and to be proactive about preventing those kinds of problems.

Maybe taking us in a different direction, we did discuss, the board did discuss the ride alongs and the possibility of ride alongs. I don't know if if that was relayed to you guys or not that we'd had that discussion about ride alongs. And I was just curious if one of our topics might be who to get in touch with, how to do a ride along. Know when I was, again, director of the mediation center, we had some folks that did ride alongs in the evenings with police officers, not during the day because they were volunteers and they weren't available during the day. So they were doing evening ride alongs with Frederick City Police.

And so we discussed that many times here, and I'd just like a little bit more information if it's available at this point about, you know, how we go about as a PAB member, who do we call, how do we get to a ride along, you know, what do we need to bring to a ride along, if anything, Those kinds of things.

That would be something we could coordinate through Sarah for distribution.

Okay. Thank you.

Any more discussion with the law enforcement agency this time? Thank you gentlemen. At the July 16 meeting, six of us present voted to appoint Joseph Vince, Jonathan Lovens, and since then, both of them have declined the appointment. Of the six members present for the interview's appointments, I can have a motion to appoint the third applicant, Debra Hacker Haberkorn, to fill the vacancy with the term. She was the only person that wasn't voted in. Is there a motion to vote for that vacancy to fill it?

I'll make the motion.

I I

have some question in terms of clarity. So are we motioning to fill to to fill the vacancy with her or to fill the vacancy?

One vacancy. In other words, there was three people that were Great. Applied. All three were considered good, but we only chose two.

Right.

The two we chose then chose not to come through.

Right. So what are we doing now? Are we voting to appoint her or just to fill the vacancy?

Let's appoint her. Yeah.

Thank you. And which vacancy?

Right.

It would be this this one would be to appoint the vacancy that the term ends 10/30/2026. That's the shorter term. And then the the motion is just to fill that position. Then we still there is still one open position aft if you vote and appoint that person. There is still one position that the PAB is responsible for appointing another person to which that application link is open and then you they'll go through the application process as normal.

Question, so when we talked about candidates for the ACC we went into closed session.

You cannot just yes. You cannot discuss anything about it in the open session about what was discussed in the closed session. Right.

So do we need to go into closed session to discuss the candidate that we're talking about now?

You already discussed the candidate in the last closed session, so you're going to have to go based on what was in the last closed session because closed session isn't scheduled.

Do we have to make the appointment tonight?

You don't have to make a motion to appoint tonight. I'm just simp that's simply on there. She was interviewed. We are down to a three person ACC. The next ACC training is not until November. So, otherwise, you'll be functioning on a three person ACC until the November.

And who considers this? The six people that were present for the interview or the

Okay. Whole

Which y'all was one.

Yeah.

Any other comments or And we have a motion. Do we have a second?

Motion.

In favor of that meeting. Raise your hand. Say Aye. The majority.

Per your rules of procedure, if you were not present for a discussion regardless of the matter, whether it's personnel or something else, you are not to participate in the vote of that matter. So this vote is limited to the six members who were present during the interview process. And that six members does constitute a quorum if you choose to go forward.

Well, think we just voted and also, Six of us.

Six of us are not in favor

by a show of hands who is in favor.

That participate twelve thirty four. So four of

four six. I thought you voted for it. I'm sorry.

And are the other two voting against? Okay.

Then it doesn't pass.

Voted for the appointment and two voted against it.

We still have now an open seat we need

to fill There's still an open seat that needs to be filled. Yes.

And are we as PAB members opened again like we were before to send it out to folks that we know that might be interested? Yes. Okay. Great. Thank you.

And I'll be put in I'll discuss something further later events and things that's in my discussions. But the application link is has been open and has remained open, and we do have applicants for that for the open position.

The next thing on the agenda is the administrative charging committee update. Sam Bruce.

Thank you. Okay. Again, what we were just discussing, you know, we have the two we had the two applicants that backed out, and now you have appointed one. So we do have the one opening. You will at this point, we're gonna you'll go through the normal process. We'll be collecting the applications. You'll you have a meeting scheduled in September. I don't know. For September 17, that will be set for the virtual interviews for that open spot. And then you will appoint your person at the October like usual.

And let's see. And again, there there are still spots open for the ACC training that's being held July 28 through August 1. So if there is anybody that wants to attend, please let me know. Otherwise, the next ACC training is not scheduled until November 3 through the seventh. And that's all I have on that subject.

Sarah, is that training in Sykesville again? Yes. Correct. I'd be interested in that.

For this one coming

up in July? July 28. Okay.

I will send them I'll send them your information. Alright. Thank you.

So is the Sparse membership that we have right now slowing anything down? Are there complaints building up or is business going on as usual?

You know, we have we have a complaint or two sitting in there now, but there was a period of time where we did have them building up due to not enough people there. But I've I've managed to get us back on track to where we just enough to make a quorum to get caught up. But now we won't have we're not having a July meeting because I don't have we don't have enough people to make a quorum. So the next meeting will not be until August.

Was there excuse me. Was there anything with the ACC that the two people who you appointed did not wanna do it? Or was it just personal thing, or was it something about the ACC?

No. It was per they were it was on their side. Nothing to do with this.

Hey, Sarah. What were the dates again in July?

July 28 through August 1. It's the very last July.

Can you send me that too?

You wanna go too?

Might as well.

Okay. I gotcha.

So there were two members of that of the ACC that are all very good members. They were quality members, and apparently, resigned. Is there anything that we can do to prevent such a thing, or was that something outside of the scope of what we do here?

That was very much, I think, outside of the scope of anything that's done here. I think that was just more maybe an admin issue. Okay. But nothing that nothing that was done on the PAB or ACC side alone. It was not nothing to do with you you guys either the board or the committee. Committee.

Thank Thank you. You.

You're You're welcome. Welcome.

Okay. I'll also give the administrative update. A few of the PAB members and ACC members, we did attend Frederick Pride. We were able to make contact with, I guess, about 250 people that we actually spoke to. Not that just came and took the candy or stuff, that we actually spoke to and, you know, provided information.

So we did get some very good public outreach there. We have now there is a veterans appreciation that day that is being held this Saturday, the nineteenth. We do not have a table, but the office of equity and inclusion has a table. So I will be providing things for the board and the committee at the veterans appreciation day. I will also be there in attendance in the morning.

So that's another place that I can, you know, even for positions filling positions on our PAB and ACC and trial board in the future. That's a good, know, outings I can go and let people know to apply. So I have that coming up and then a reminder that in the streets is Saturday, September 13 as more information is provided to me. I will, of course, send it out to you and then we'll come up with the volunteer list who's going to volunteer what times. Also, just a just a reminder because we have a new people that any and all communications and media inquiries are to be directed to myself just in case because that does happen.

You will people will reach out to you asking for comments or what this, that, and the other. You need they should be directed to me. And also just a reminder of the attendance policy, the attendance is you are to ex you're expected to attend 75% of the meetings in a twelve calendar month period. If for any reason you cannot attend a meeting, please call and let me know so that I'm aware beforehand or, you know, maybe there's a special circumstance that you can't come to the meeting and, you know, just just so we're not just not showing up and I don't know. So Yes, sir.

Question on that. We have four standard meetings a year. Is the 75% included just those or does include all the meetings?

It includes all six because you have technically

right

six because the November meeting you are generally working and reviewing and finalizing your annual report.

Okay. Thank you.

You're welcome. Anybody? And I that's all unless anybody has any questions for myself.

One question was, I did notice you said the Veterans Day and, in the streets, but we were also, to Brunswick's thing, it was, the Railroad Days in October. We were gonna set up a booth there.

Okay. I'll check.

Yeah. Because I think we we put that on the list, didn't we? Yeah. And, to make sure that we're hitting all the communities, and I would think also Colorfest.

Was were were those on the list in maybe February or March that you had them on the Okay. I'm sorry. I I honestly, I was not aware of that. But if there's anything that you want to send to me that you had before that I'm not aware of, please send it to me and then I will look into if we can get space and what space. I was I only got what was talked about at the April meeting and that was the pride in in the streets. And then

What was that?

And then like I said, veteran the veterans appreciation day, that wasn't mentioned, but I know that OEI has the table set up. So I will make sure that we have materials there, and I will be in attendance in the morning.

The only other thing I would say is tonight having these questions, if you have any questions, forward them so she can forward them to the agencies before the next meeting.

Yep. Anytime you have any questions, yes. Email me, contact me, and I will reach out and work with the law enforcement agencies on that. Any questions you have for them?

What were some of just for us new people. Well, one just left for a second. But what were some of the topics? Like, I wouldn't even be able to take this on there off the top of head, but what were some of the topics that they have talked about in the past?

I've talked about two one one, I know mental health services.

Recruiting.

Yeah.

Recruiting and and also training.

Mhmm. Trainings. Yeah.

A large topic was mental health. Yep. Mhmm. And then continuing not just for the officers, for support people, families, that kind

of stuff. Resilience.

Another topic was we often tried to get some analytics because the Frederick Police Department was under a CBA collective bargaining agreement prior to when this board came into existence. And so that was kind of an ongoing ask about numbers and analytics, especially for like, just the investigations so that we could just have some awareness as to what we might be facing when they came off of CBA, and that we could, you know, begin to think about some of the annual reporting.

Where's the Veterans Appreciation going to be held at?

1 Frederick Health Way. I don't know what building that is. I just know the address off the top of my head. I don't know. It goes in my GPS. It's a Frederick

Health Village. It's directly behind the Monarch City Walmart.

You. I said I just knew the address. But I can send you information if you want if you want to attend that. I received that information Monday. So

Next on the agenda is the general legal overview of PAB under the Maryland Police Accountability Act.

And that would be me. I don't think we've taken the opportunity to kinda just have a general discussion about, the laws related to the PAB. As counsel to your group, it's it's a really good feeling to see everyone here. I'm not sure I've ever attended a PAB meeting where I've seen all 11 seats filled. So it it's great to see everybody.

All the seats are filled. This is gonna be very high level, and just kind of a refresher for some of you and also maybe a little bit of an introduction for newer members. And it's, as I said, very general. So if for some reason you might have a very specific question, legal question, that might be incident related, case related, event related, that's not the purpose of this discussion. Because if we should happen to get off the trail into a sensitive topic, we might be talking about something that is not appropriate for a public discussion.

If you have something that's a burning question and you feel like that line might potentially be crossed, please send us an email, and we will take a look at it. And if it's appropriate to just respond to you directly, we'll handle it that way. Or if it's something that is more appropriate to the group, if there's a situation that arises where I need to be giving the group legal advice, that must take place in closed session to protect the attorney client privilege. So I just wanted to preface my comments with, that caution and and just so we know where our guardrails are. So I've heard a couple of people reference, when this group was started, and that's actually the first thing that I kinda wanted to touch on was the establishment of the Police Accountability Board because Frederick County is not the only county who has one.

Every county in Maryland has one. And one of the law enforcement representatives law enforcement agency representatives mentioned that there were sweeping well, I'm paraphrasing, but sweeping changes that affected policing. My comments only have to do with the PAB, but there were a tremendous amount of changes. And this started with the Maryland General Assembly passing that comprehensive piece of legislation all the way back in April 2021. And the title of it, the informal title is the Maryland Police Accountability Act of 2021.

So among a lot of other things, that piece of legislation established police accountability boards or PABs within each county across the state, and you, are serving on Frederick Counties. The law did not become effective until 07/01/2022. That was kind of a magic date. And in response to that, each county across the state had responsibilities that it had to take care of. And Frederick County government took care of its responsibilities of figuring out how to put these legal provisions in place to the extent the county was required to do so under a bill and the county's original bill for establishing the Police Accountability Board, the Administrative Charging Committee, all of various things, occurred under bill number 22 dash 09, and it has been reduced to county code sections.

And part of that establishes this this PAB and requires 11 members, and that's why there are 11 of you on the days right now. So to touch on a little bit of the statutory duties and roles and responsibilities of the PAB, and by statutory, I mean, what the law requires. You provide as a group your group provides independent oversight to law enforcement agencies in Frederick County. And you have the representatives of those four agencies here tonight, the sheriff's office, the Frederick City Police Department, Brunswick Police Department, and Thurmont Police Department. That's where your oversight begins, and that's where your oversight ends.

You're in Frederick County. You your, your interaction is with, those law enforcement agencies here within our boundaries. And what you are tasked with doing under the Police Accountability Act is evaluating these agencies' disciplinary processes regarding complaints of police misconduct. And that police misconduct must involve a police officer and a member of the public. So they're public complaints.

The way that you evaluate these disciplinary processes is not what the administrative charging committee does in actually handling and looking into the complaints. What your group does is more advisory, more big picture and evaluative, more if if you've attended the Maryland sorry. I used to work for this agency years ago, and it was not called what it is now, the Maryland Police Training and Standards Commission. If you've attended some of their trainings, you may have heard them speak about the administrative charging committee being backward looking because they're handling the complaint side of things, things that have happened, things that need to be looked into in the past. But your group, the PAB, is more forward looking because you have the ability to have input to change policy, to make policy, to identify trends.

I mean, some of this language you've heard over and over and over again. You hold your quarterly meetings. You interact with the heads of the law enforcement agencies. You schedule other meetings as necessary to conduct your business. This is how you're involving yourself in evaluating disciplinary processes and policing in Frederick County.

You work with these law enforcement agencies. You work with other county government representatives to improve matters of policing. And when the administrative charging committee comes and gives its quarterly report to you about the outcomes of disciplinary matters, that's another way in which you're evaluating police agencies' activities here in Frederick County. And I'm sure that some of you remember or are aware that the administrative charging committee chair is the person who comes and visits with you on a quarterly basis and shares that information to satisfy that requirement that you are to exchange ideas or get information from the ACC. And we've also had some I'm sorry.

We've had some input and some questions arise about exactly what the ACC chair is supposed to provide. And we've gotten instruction from the agency that I just spoke about, the Police, Training and Standards Commission. It provides information at your meetings to satisfy this review, giving the nature of the complaints that they've been dealing with, the names of involved law enforcement agencies, and then their decisions in terms of outcome. Much of the information that the ACC deals with is protected by, confidentiality requirement. Another task with which the PAB is charged is receiving complaints of misconduct, alleged misconduct, filed by members of the public.

The

there is a process in place for handling those complaints that come into the PAB. And they are typically just a general overview sent out to the law enforcement agencies for investigation. They come back with their investigation, materials, provide that to the ACC, and at that point, the ACC takes over and does its work, and your part of that is finished. We also heard a reference this evening to the annual report, and that's another thing that the PAB is tasked with doing, submitting a report to the county's county executive and county council, and that must happen on or before December 31 of every year. And we informally call it the annual report.

And in that report and and Don has played an integral Don Orum has played an integral role as that in that as the chair, preparing these reports where you identify any trends that you are seeing or encountering or being reported to you in the disciplinary process of law enforcement officers in Frederick County. Where appropriate, you may consider recommending changes to policy or training or supervision because the idea is to help improve policing, not just in Frederick County, but statewide. There is some effort to try to be more uniform in terms of discipline and how offenses are handled. And in doing so, you're not just having an impact at the county level, but you are helping to ensure greater police accountability across the state. And this is about relationship building.

Right? Maybe this is the most important thing of all is that your work as advisory and policy review and being evaluative in your interactions is improving relationships between law enforcement and the community. There are some other things that you're responsible for doing under the law. You also have your rules of procedure. They dictate some things that you are responsible for.

These are are less heavy, I think, than, the the bigger scope of what you're tasked with under, that legislation that took effect in July 2022. So we've been through this process of appointing civilian members to the ACC and trial boards. We are also actively handling these complaints. And to be a little bit more specific about what the law requires in handling complaints that come into the PAB, the chair is tasked with determining whether a complaint is forwarded to the proper law enforcement agency for investigation, and that must happen within three days. Actually, sorry, three business days from the date of receipt of that complaint.

You also must maintain records of your meetings. That's why we do recordings or take minutes, according to the record retention schedule that's handled for you here in the county through your liaison, and your she's liaison for you with other county agencies. For example, records retention, staff who handle those issues because the county and every county across Maryland ultimately does have record retention accountability at the state level. So as your executive administrator, Sarah handles that working internally. You're also tasked with maintaining confidentiality relating to all matters that come before the PAB that should be held in confidence.

And I think every one of you also has been asked to sign a statement of confidentiality. If there's any training that comes up that is required, you must participate, whether that's through the Police Training and Standards Commission, the County Ethics Law, the Maryland Open Meetings Act. And you're also encouraged to take advantage of any other training opportunities that might become available. And you heard some discussion about that and attending or participating in events as well. You must abide by the county's code of civility.

It's just acting with kindness and fairness, abiding by the county's ethics laws. If anything comes up that you feel like there's a possibility that you may have a conflict of interest or even the appearance of a conflict of interest, if you have a question, ask. We will be happy to help you with that. And if it's determined that you do have a conflict of interest or even if your participation in something might appear to have a conflict or be conflict related, the best thing to do is recuse. But we will give you assistance, come alongside you, but you must make us aware.

We can't help you if we don't hear from you. And then we just talked about another little aspect of how we operate here, which is to vote only on matters for which you were present for discussion and deliberation, and then you must be physically present to vote. Because we don't do any voting by proxy or, well, hey. I can't be there. Can you throw in an extra vote for me? And we can't do any of that. You must be here and participate. So I hope that that was short enough and high level enough. I tried to give you, some salient things that might be of particular interest to you. But if anyone has any questions, happy to answer or try to get back to you later if we can't answer on the spot. Yes.

Can you explain two questions completely unrelated to each other. One is how do complaints get to the PAB? Like, what's the pathway of a complaint? And then the other one is do the different counties review each other's annual reports? Is there any effort to coordinate or learn from each other or anything like that?

The the PAB, we have an online complaint form. So they'll fill out a complaint form online. I received that. And the process is right now it goes to the chair for approval before I send it to the law enforcement agency. That's how they do their complaints.

Sometimes I do get emails and things like that and if it's detailed enough or they have already filed one that all goes forward too. And as for the second question, generally, every county has their annual report online. So I don't I generally sometimes at the end of well, previously at the end of the year, we'll go through and look at their annual reports to see how they're doing theirs or not doing theirs and, you know, that's how I get that information.

Are they collected in any way or

No. I don't think there's any form that collects all the annual reports. Not at least any county wise that I know of.

I was just saying, it it might be useful to have them all in the same place.

There's certainly nothing preventing counties from sharing their annual reports. Frederick Counties are posted on the police accountability on our county's police accountability website Police Accountability Board website. But now might be a good time to just throw out something interesting that I wasn't planning on talking about. But I would just bring it to everybody's attention. And I think Sarah plans to email the perf report. Okay. It's already done. So it should be in everyone's inbox. Perfs perf is p e r f. It stands for the police executive research forum.

And it's an organization in Washington DC that got some grant money from the governor's office of crime control and prevention, I think. And they have been collecting data from, the counties across Maryland and and trying to make some sense of the data that's starting to come in that is starting to mature a little bit, starting to show some trends, if you will, across the state. And I'm certainly not gonna sit here and talk anything about that because it's already been shared with you. But if you're looking for something that might be close to what you were talking about, which is putting them all together, so to speak, that organization has very recently released its report. It's how many pages?

90. 90 pages. 90. But it's interesting reading. And so I would encourage you to look for that email from Sarah and open that up and spend some time with it.

I'd like to make a comment just to follow-up. In the past, there's been like, a statewide meeting held over in Annapolis. I know I've attended, Sarah's attended, some of the law enforcement agencies have attended. But that's where all the counties would come together to kind of understand sort of things that they've been experiencing. They talk about the complaints that come in, not the detail of the complaints, but the number.

Because the, you know, the counties all through Maryland, they're all different sizes. Some counties haven't received any complaints, you know. Baltimore County, they receive 600 complaints a year or I mean, but it's talking about those kinds of things and just just trends and issues and concerns and changes to policy that, you know, we would like to see. But it's all sort of kind of like a collaboration of all of the reports that are submitted. Again, it's happened these last two years, but this law has only been in effect for three years.

So it's about building on the trends and the data. So maybe with this new group, Perf, I think they interviewed us, I want to say last year, to collect information and maybe they'll start to, you know, see some trends, make recommendations, you know, so that the state can make changes. I know, you know, there's, you know, issues about, you know, where's, you know, where's the data stored and who owns the data and what are some of the common themes that we're seeing across the state. But that group is now, you know, don't know if they'll receive annual funding or not, but I think that group is trying to do some of what, you know, we all think should be done in terms of collecting and sort of synthesizing the information that's coming in.

Kim, I attended the perf meeting, the virtual meeting they had where they were doing I guess it was part two. I missed part one because I wasn't on the board then, but part two. And that's one of the things that they talked about was the trends they were seeing. They used the counties. They left Baltimore City kind of off to the side because Baltimore City has over 2,000 police complaints a year.

So they're there. 8CCs, mega, mega busy. And, the other day, I noticed that the PAB from Baltimore City was actually on the news. The chairman was talking about PAB and what it was about on, the WJZ is where I was viewing that. So there might be an opportunity for you to find those videos, or that that with the report that they they gave, because I know you would be very interested in all the stats and how they come to the stats.

Or back to third day to go.

Just just, I think just a year and a half, two years, 2020?

Or 2020, like, the first year. I mean, we

Right. One of the things they did was compare pre PAB and current PAB so that you could see the differences between when there weren't PABs and now when there are PABs, what does that look like? And is that making it more available to citizens to make the complaints? But you'd be interested

in it.

Yeah. And the other thing is, like, Baltimore County, Baltimore City, they have they're staffed with people to run a more formal program. Most counties have volunteers that are, you know, that are doing, you know, the things that other, you know, the larger counties have full time employees who are, you know, doing this Prince George's County. I've talked to, you know, leaders in Prince George's County, Baltimore County, Montgomery County, Howard County, just to kinda see, especially when we were trying to stand up this program, what they're doing, what some of their successes were, what are some learnings they've had. So but it's just interesting to hear what other counties are doing and, you know, and how they're, you know, sort of navigating through all of the you know, this this sort of program, whether it's PAB, ACC, but you know, there are counties that are, you know, have full time and part time staff that are doing this for a living, so versus volunteering.

I don't have anything else, Shannon. That's all.

Public comment is next on the agenda. Anybody that has public comment if you would step up, please.

I'm gonna rush up because I'm gonna rush out.

Oh, I'm not starting your time yet.

I'm not

I've got the timer.

Oh, we have limitation in terms of time.

Three minutes.

Three minutes. Oh, then you can't make comment in three minutes? Come on.

Three minutes on? That suggests you

don't that suggests you really don't wanna comment. I think you also remitted that. If you wanna live in three minutes, that means you really don't wanna comment. It's a police accountability bill, and part of this is community. There should be some input by the community. I saw input by the police officers. I looked at your agenda. I didn't see anything that talked about input about the community. I want to follow-up on something that I discussed the last time I was here with you. You all may recall that I raised the issue of a budget.

I raised it with individual members, and I raised it, I think, collectively. In February 2022, when this was being proposed, I submitted a statement. And in that statement that I submitted, I referenced section three one zero two of the public safety article code of Maryland, and maybe council is familiar with it. And it talked about the local governing body and says it should establish the membership of a police accountability board Two, establish the budget and staff of a police accountability board. Now when I was here before, I raised the issue about outreach, and I said you don't have a budget.

In order for there to be outreach, you need to have a budget. This is coming back to HONA. I've heard reference to other jurisdictions that have a budget for that. If there was nothing budgeted and it was required by the law, that means that you weren't really serious about doing outreach. We talk about complaints.

And I think one of the officers said, well, the complaints show that we don't need a Pope's accountability board here in Frederick. I think that was the guy from Now, I think he was making that comment based upon what he's seeing. Hopefully, he wasn't making that comment based upon his predisposition in terms of that. But if you're looking at the complaint to determine the necessity of the board and to see how well it's working, then you have to make sure people know about the complaint procedure. And that is something that's woefully inadequate here.

And I pointed that out time and time again. You need a budget. And what I want to do I don't know your procedure here, but I want to submit for the record a statement that I made early on I don't know the process of doing this. I'll go to counsel, that you know, because certainly the composition of this commission. I would request that you all get a chance to look at that individually and or collectively and point out some things that I identified NAACP. My name is Willie Mahone, I head of NAACP. That the NAACP pointed out at the very onset when this thing was being formulated. There are some problems here amongst those problems. Of course, you talked about the competition of the board, which you can look at as well. I look here and I can identify visually three people of color.

There may be some people of Latinx background, But I think that needs to be taken into consideration as well. And since I only have three minutes, I want talk about some other things. I heard some discussion about events. What I didn't hear was any discussion about the Asbury block party that comes up annually. And I mentioned that when I was there before.

I say that to say this. That is that is an event that's particularly concentrates on the African American community. Now if you look at the if you look at the real history of the Police Accountability Board, it is for purposes of addressing or bringing into the process people who have been adversely affected by police misconduct. And we know what that is. We saw George Floyd.

We know what has happened historically in terms of relationship between police and the communities of color. And so when you start talking about your outreach, but your outreach doesn't include something that is particularly domain and a gathering place for people of color, then there's something substantially wrong here. There's something substantially wrong. I think that they need to be reevaluated. I think you ought to look at this and reevaluate what you are. If you say, oh, we have no complaints. Therefore, we don't need a public a police accountability board. Well, that may

Mr. Be

Mahomes, don't have any complaint. Mr. Mahomes, stop. I would ask for two more minutes. I think what I'm saying is particularly the Three. Main

We give three minutes if you would like to come No.

I'm sure you have some discretion, and I'm asking for your discretion. That's what I'm asking for. Nobody wants to speak up?

No. I mean, I understand you're asking for discretion.

And your discretion is no. Thank you very much.

Yes.

And I think again, that speaks to the real intent and governing of this commission.

Wanna make it.

In terms of

hearing from the community, I I think it speaks to that very

Can I speak?

Important issue. Thank you very much.

Can I speak?

Sure. You can. Sure. Okay.

I wanna make a I wanna make a comment to you, sir.

I want Let's do it off the record. I'll be available. Let's do it off record.

Okay. That's fine.

Okay.

Thank you.

Can I ask a question? I assume the purpose of the three minute limit is to accommodate many speakers.

Yes. It's a three minute limit and it's vague and technically it's three minutes and it is for anything that was a topic on the agenda.

But if we don't have many speakers is there any leeway to extend that?

I mean And that would be at the discretion of the chair. Normally, don't. But

The issue with this is that it's it's has to be something on the agenda. In other words, for the public to comment on.

Everything I talked about on the agenda.

Yes. The public comment is on the agenda. Yes.

No. But can I is that a PAB rule? Is that an open meetings rule? I know that's

That is what I'm pretty sure that's what is in the rules of procedure.

It it just seems artificial when, as far as I can tell, we have one speaker.

I will look at your rules of procedure, but if that's what's in your that if that's within the PAB rules of procedure, then that's probably why it's listed on there. But can

we standard at all of the county commission meetings and anything like that, three minutes per speaker.

Are you saying correct that organizations are given more than three minutes? I think

NWCP Register in advance.

NWCP has been given more than three minutes as an organization. But it's already been said that it's waivable by the commission chair. And so this gentleman had you all said that. So this gentleman had the option to waive it, particularly in light of the fact that we don't have 500 people sat here sitting here to comment. It just bespeaks of the closeness of the lockdown that is characteristic of this committee, and we cannot get away from that lockdown mentality.

That lockdown mentality is what has you not showing up at the bury block party, which is a a major event. People come from all over the county and from agencies throughout the state. That is an event that is concentrated on, it's put on primarily by the African American community. And I will submit that the African American members of this committee show up.

May I? I want to make a comment. We've attended the Asbury Block Party in the past. I think, it wasn't last year, but the year before. We inquired this year. I attend Asbury. I inquired about having our board show. We weren't invited to attend. I inquired about having the board attend. There was also a conflict.

You know, we had a preliminary schedule of events. I think they mentioned the vets event that's happening. So the committee did, know, one of the issue is that we're having is people schedule and having proper representation, people to cover the events. So, you know, so there was an issue with that. Then the other issue with Asbury is we asked to attend and we were told that there were no more, there wasn't any additional space to accommodate us.

They sent that out at the beginning, nine months.

But we didn't we didn't get it. Again, I attend Asbury. I interface with the coordinator.

I've been attending Asbury since I've been here as well. I'm not a member of Hopeville, but I attend Asbury as well. I communicate regularly with with reverend Gruber. Mhmm. I know that process. You can you can attend if you prioritize attending. Now some of your members are gonna show up and ask This is

not a meeting where we speak open. This is not a family gathering. Okay? If somebody else wants to speak, you're taking their time. And if you come back again and you say you're representing an organization, you'll get ten minutes because that's what the county says. Ten minutes. I don't think the county says that per se. The county I

was speaking to Don because she was talking directly to me. And I was speaking directly to her. But if you want if you want to impose a if you wanna muzzle any comment, so be it.

I'm not trying to muzzle any comment. I'm trying to make the meeting orderly so everybody gets a chance to speak, so everybody has a chance to speak, including other people that wanna speak. Young lady has her hand up. I'm assuming she wants to speak.

Okay. I'll be here after her three minutes are over. And I may ask for some more time after that.

All right. I'm not a great speaker.

But

I just wanted to I recently found out about the Police Accountability Board. My name is Marsha Shaw. I'm a doctor, a physician in the community. I've been here for at least the last ten years. And I'm a member of the American College of Physicians and the National Medical Association as well.

So both organizations have affirmed that police violence and racial profiling are public health crises that can cause real long term harm, especially for youth and marginalized communities, including trauma, fear, and mistrust of public systems. So I just wanted this board to kind of approach its work through a trauma informed lens that looks at not just what has happened, but how it impacts people's health, dignity, and sense of safety. So looking at public wellness and accountability must mean healing, prevention, and not just review. So I was particularly interested in a case that I ran across of a gentleman last year in July 2024 who was incorrectly, mistakenly arrested and then freed. But then there was some he ended up having to it was on video, like televised.

And he had to go after the police for some improper behavior that occurred. And I wondered how often there are people that are mistakenly apprehended by police where this kind of data is published. Is that something I can find somewhere? And I brought kind of some background statements from the American College of Physicians dated back to 2021 when the American College of Physicians attempted to get the George Floyd Justice and Policing Act of 2021 through Congress. And I'll give you all copies of those.

You can pass around.

It. Thank you. Anybody else wish to speak?

Wanna do a retort. Mister Mahoney, you know who I am, and you know that I will stand my ground. Hold on. To make a judgmental call of that, we are confined. We are not thinking out of the box per se.

I can't hear you, brother.

To to say that we are confined in our thinking or just thinking in a box, this is probably the most diversive organization outside the military that I've been a part of. I will tell you I will provide you this cursory overview. Get to know the people that are up here before you make a superficial statement like that because words have power and they also leave scars that sometimes never heal. You and I have been on the battlefield together. We've gone toe to toe.

You speak your mind and I speak mine. What I'm asking you is take the opportunity to understand collectively and individually who these individuals are up here and what they bring to the table before you give an overview of what you did. That is like me saying that all police departments are corrupt and ill equipped. Far from the truth. Far from the truth.

You have to get to know the bodies that are not only presiding but have committed and sacrificed their time in doing this. Just like the the sacrifice that you're doing as a president of the NAACP, that's not a half time job. I know what you bring. I know the issues that you have to resolve, and they're not always easy. And a lot of people are sitting on the sidelines saying, you know, Willie doesn't know what tech he's doing.

I've seen you in action. I can agree to agree, disagree, and I can agree to agree, but I'm not gonna call you incompetent. I'm not gonna stand in any any type of situation and allow that type of reflective attitude to be used. We are in a war right now. Our constitution is at stake. Racism is back ever stronger than what it used to be. Sexism is back ever stronger than what it would whatever it was. We have got to stand united. There's my three minutes.

Now that was a personal address. Do I get a chance to respond to the personal address? No. Good. Good. My my my comments did not go to individuals. I talked about this collective body. And I stand by my comments because of this collective body. Now, I preface those comments by certain information. Information that I preferenced it by was the statutory requirement that a budget

Okay. Be Thank you. We're we're going off topic, and it's not on the agenda.

Well, he gets to point the finger at me and said I'll make reflective comments. Looked directly at me and said, don't make a reflective comment. But when I, respond, die, you don't get to make it.

Talk to him.

Pardon me?

After the meeting, you can talk to him.

Well, you didn't talk to me after the meeting. Said that.

Our budget is set by the county. We don't set our budget. Our budget is set by the county, what little budget we have. We don't have any control over that.

You should then we then we should be working against some control of it. If you don't have a budget to allow you to do what you need to do, then we should be advocating for that budget. That is what my communication said back in February 2022. He

he is not at the microphone and the discussion. We are done with the discussion because we are off now way off topic and off our agenda.

I don't

know now. Dick management making that determination. Shannon, turn your mic.

I would like to make a motion to dismiss this meeting, to end this meeting.

Second. Motion to adjourn.

Second. All in favor? Aye. We are adjourned. Thank you.