Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

I don't even think that's allowed anymore. What? Going to the No, I I I wasn't sure. I wasn't sure if there was a public hearing or something. Just a rumor I'm starting. Okay. I don't even think that's allowed anymore. You're an instigator. Yeah. All right, Dr. Hoffman, you're set to go, sir. Thanks, Jeff. Um 701 will call the Franklin Township Planning Commission meeting to order April 3rd. Are we? Yes. Yeah. And um you had the agenda up there, but I think I have another beginning of the agenda, which we just called it to order. Uh there's any public comment. I don't think we have any public. And then uh next order of business is approval of our last meeting minutes December 5th, 2024. Hopefully everybody had a chance to look through there because I'm sure you don't remember what we discussed. I'll make a motion to approve the planning commission meeting minutes from December 5th, 2024. I'll second. Great. Any discussion? Any corrections, changes? If not, uh all in favor? I I any opposed? Great. Um, next is uh organization of the planning commission and um we all had some at least Chuck and I had

discussions. John voiced his interest in staying as secretary since he's getting great help from Stacy. Uh so if we have any nominations, we we start with um chairman, right? Yes. Okay. May I make a motion that the planning commission appoint Dave Hoffman to chairman of the planning commission? I'll second. Okay. Thank you. I guess do we have any other nominations? Um being so if nobody else wants the chair person, I'll continue and we'll close nominations for chairperson. So, um, all in favor of Dave Hoffman as chairperson, say I. I. I. I. Any opposition? Take you in the alley later. No, just kidding. Um, nominations for vice chair. I make a motion that the planning commission appoint Mark Harris as the vice chairman of the planning commission. Second. Awesome. Great. Thanks, Zach. Any uh other nominations for vice chair? We'll close the nominations. Any discussion? Would you like to make a speech, Mark, or No, I'll pass on the speech right now. You know, it's a very hotly contested race. I don't want to, you know, get anybody upset. All right. All in favor of Mark Harris as vice chair say I. I. I. Any opposition? Great. We'll move on to nominations for secretary. I make a motion that the planning commission appoint John Contars the secretary of the planning

commission. I'll second. Any other nominations? Okay, we'll close nominations. Uh any discussion? All in favor of John Gonpars as secretary say I. I. I. Any opposition? Being none, John is secretary. Um, so great. Thank you. How do we handle these minutes? I guess John can still review them with Stacy after Sure. John's always very good at going back and looking the the videos when he when he's unable to attend. Okay, great. So, moving on. Uh, first order of business is the agricultural security area application um for 1067 Wickerton Road, which is part of the we all know it as the Hawking Farm or Chester Hills farm. Um, do you want me to do my best at explaining it, Jeff, or do you want to explain why we're looking at this? I think many of us know, but Well, what why don't you start off, sir, and then if there's anything I need to fill in, I' I'd be happy to try and and do that. Great. I mean, so since this is a public meeting, hopefully for one, we all had a chance to look at the ASA um meeting video from about two weeks ago. Uh so you all have a pretty good understanding, but that being that if any public viewed this video, they wouldn't understand what we're addressing. Uh the a security area uh in a nutshell is um to protect farmers against nuisance claims and there are certain area requirements and production

requirements um to be in there as well as uh some of that doesn't have to apply if a property is next to a parcel that's already in an ASA or is making application at the same time uh that meets those production requirements. Um, this is a parcel like that. It's only 2 acres, but it's um contiguous with the larger parcels that the Hawkings are already have in the A security area. They're they've made application. My understanding is they've been accepted for land preservation and a prerequisite for land preservation is that you need to be that those parcels being preserved need to be in an a security area. Uh it's been about over 10 years since we last put a parcel in the a security area. So thank you to Jeff for doing a lot of leg work to make sure we did this in the right manner. uh working with our solicitor and and the county Jeff Shelington who's part of land preservation his his job is not a security area Eric is a security areas are the responsibility of the townships but if you had like I said if you had a chance to see the video it uh I think you have a good understanding of what we're doing tonight um we did uh to make application to the a security area uh we all got copied with um the application questions and the county's review of those questions and fortunately they got back to us in a timely fashion quicker than they were required to to say that the application meets their requirements. Um we could go through those questions if we wanted to. I kind of feel if you had a chance to see the video, we went through those questions

and the county's gone through those questions. the property meets the requirements of the a security area. Um, how about if I stop there? Hopefully that's a good enough explanation. So, it does require our recommendation to the board of supervisors. Correct, Jeff? Yes, sir. Please. But if we want to have any discussion, feel free. No, the the video pretty much covered it pretty well and anybody who's seen it, I think should understand. And then if a copy of the uh approval letter that we just got this afternoon is posted somewhere, they that should pretty much satisfy I imagine anybody who's wants to see it. Right. I agree. And you see the county review letter on the screen. Yes. I think the reason for why they're applying is really tells a big story. just that it's a small parcel that's associated with a 100 acre uh par parcel next door and the family just simply missed this small um the small um lot when they originally applied. So, they're just cleaning things up, right? I'm just trying to pull the uh suggested motion up. Can't find it. But it's right there. Any other It's on the screen.

Any other discussion? Any comments from alternates um as well? No. Can you hear me now? Yes, we can. Yes. I had to resort to my phone. I'm sorry. No questions here. You want a motion? Yes, please. Entertain one. Yes. Thank you. Okay. I make a motion that the planning commission accept and approve the agricultural security area application for Lois Hawking uh property at uh 1067 Wickerton Road, Landenburgg, PA tax parcel 72-2-41. That was it. I I didn't end with Do I have a second? I'll second. Thank you, Mark. Any discussion on the motion? Being none, all in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Being none, motion passes. Great. We'll have another one in 10 years. [Laughter] Well, what was what was interesting, Mr. Mr. Brown um had attended our ASA meeting. So it would be um it' be be interesting if he decides to go through this process. Yeah. Hope I mean just for him it would be good good for any farmer. Yes sir.

Um so next order of business is uh planning commission's discussion on the proposed road pavings for 2025 and and patching. [Music] Um if I can kind of summarize how I know the how the process goes. I guess maybe Jeff in about January you start trying to see with um surveying the township roads with the engineer what may need to be patched or paved and with the funds available try to judge what roads um meet those needs within the budget that we have each year. And so these are the four roads that are being paved and the four roads that are being patched for 2025. Um do we review is this on our agenda? And I'm sorry I didn't cover it with you, Jeff, before the meeting because we've asked to look at these roads when we've had discussions about trails, um, sidewalks, uh, pedestrian access, or was it equal that the township supervisors wanted our input? I think it was equal. um we requested um but uh James also said that he felt that we should be looking at them. Okay. And just for the record tonight, sorry to interrupt you, Dr. Hoffman. U Supervisor Jim Johnston as well as John Contours are absent from tonight's meeting.

Yeah, I think I think we all got noticed on on Jim being absent, so it's unfortunate, but um so what's the schedule for the paving and patching? Do you still go out to bids or It it it will go out to bid, sir. Um the first time that the board discussed these roads was at the March 3rd workshop meeting uh with them having the understanding that we would have to do more homework uh to narrow things down. So, we are lining ourselves up to hopefully discuss our final list and budget numbers at the April Board of Supervisors business meeting. And Dr. Hoffman, if you want me to go through the list of roads that we looked at, I can do that in the in the areas that we eliminated. It It's up to you, sir. It's whatever you want. Um, I mean, if anybody has questions, I had an opportunity to look at the roads today. I think Chuck's looked at, um, maybe all or some as well. Yeah. Um, one question came up the section of Alurn Road and Jeff and I addressed it. Looks pretty nice, but what it is, I guess it's a final it it has a um, the base course, correct, Jeff? And now um, it was it's been three years And while that's still in good shape, we want to put the wearing course on top of that. Yes, sir. Yeah. I was wondering if Jeff could go through um and kind of describe the work that would um would be

involved. So, it says paving, but like we just said, Auburn, that's putting the second um the second course on. So, if you could describe a little more for each of the other roads. Sure. or I can try and um please don't hesitate to ask any questions. Um let me let me just go down my my list here. Um the we did look at two areas of Auburn Road uh with the overall project here. The one that we pushed to the top of the list was Auburn Road from the London Grove to Churchill Road intersection. I I w I do anticipate next year that we will mill and overlay the second part of Auburn Road from Church Hill down into a a good clean area around the what was known as the King Farm. So I anticipate that in 2026. The other lane the I apologize. The other roads are Hillcrest Drive. That's something we've been looking at for a couple years. With a severe uh freeze thaw cycle that we had this year, it uh it really took a toll on it actually lifting up pavement in some some of the minor areas there. Kimbleot Lane, um the whole length and width of that, we've looked at that for a couple of years. That's risen to the top of the list. Um, and then we have Red Fox Lane, which is in Fox Null from Den Road up to Carriage, uh, Run Lane. That's something else where the top has started to peel or the, uh,

wearing course has started to peel and it's got some severe alligator cracking. So, we are going to do some patching on um I I say patching large area patches on Parson's Road, Walker Road, Den Road at about 108, what I would call on the Casalia side of Den Road, and then some areas on South Gernzie Road within the woods. I don't know if if you've ever noticed traveling on South Gernzie in that area, if you remember the uh water I think it was a water truck that went off the embankment years ago. We had repaired it, restored that bank. We're starting to get some cracking through there. So, what we want to try and do is do some uh milling base repair and actually try and put in a keyway so it uh stops slipping over time. So the the areas that we eliminated this year because of the of what we need to do again was Auburn Road, Church Hill to the King Farm, areas of Hesill Road, an area of Liberty Lane, Peaceale Road, and Churchill Road. Um I I had one question just looking at the list. Um some of these uh specifically the Parson's Road section, the possibly the Den Road and then the uh Kimbleot Lane one. Is there any concern about overlapping with um the 896 project since they all sort of touch on it? Actually, Zach, we we we have

talked about that and then we we leaned on the side of caution and um was more afraid of not doing something beforehand and then what the road could be through that excess traffic and then future winters. Okay. I just was curious that had been considered. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. There's there's also some discussion that the township is going to um photograph the roads around 896 so that whatever damage is done due to detouring and construction uh the state may be held responsible. Correct Jeff? Um yes sir. Actually the township won't be doing those videos. Um, I was able to encourage PennDOT to do um a before and after video that we could have in our possession and then be able to make that determination, but um sometimes trying to get PENDOT to do things can be difficult. Uh we we we've run into a and I realize you may not want to talk about it, but PennDOT ran into uh a couple difficult areas on Strickersville Road where they've had to go back already and repair fresh paving um that they just did. Okay. my so so so to swing back around that I think that a big reason why we're looking at this also it has to do with um pedestrian areas and uh post offices or I'm sorry u mailboxes um so that people can safely get their mail and

um the people that are already walking around the uh township maybe we can afford them some some additional safety. Um so my thought is that these the grindings that are created during this road work it has to go somewhere and um at this point it typically is ending up at the nearest land owner that will take it. And that, as we've seen on previous permits, ends up being unpermitted and undesigned impervious surfaces. Um, we ran into that with a uh with an application that we had. Um, and I've witnessed more of it. Um, I would prefer to see these grindings end up in little landing pads for people to simply step off the road when a car is coming. Um, so we have to be aware of, you know, where it's possible to put these landing pads. Um, basically a shoulder. Um and um so we don't want them to be where that they're just going to road away back into the road on heavy rainstorms. Um there's some places where where we would obviously prefer to have them so that people uh where we have limited vision or or whatever if we could get it, you know, a pad in those areas. Um and then of course where um where there's gangs of of mailboxes um because right now what happens is that the the the mailman basically digs a big rut um next to the mailbox. So, I thought that this would be a good way to

get two for one. Um, because now we're not that the the contractor doesn't need to really vacate the area. They can simply put it down along the roadside in areas that's, you know, I think it should be approved first. I don't think we want them to just say, you know, do whatever they're going to do, but then um we may be getting it for free. uh because there's a big expense in hauling this stuff away. Um and right now it's not being properly disposed disposed of in my mind. It's a better use than a nonapproved use. Do we have trails in the township that use stone or gravel? No. Jeff, how is it managed right now? I mean, do we save any as it is any other group millings? To to be honest with you, Dr. Hoffman, we don't have the space to do it. Um, we we we have a bin at the office. We did have an area out at Franklin Preserve. I don't know if you remember that. Um, unfortunately then the county got on us because they wanted us to do something with it instead of it being in a pile. So, we did make that small parking lot there with a stone base. So, as time and money allows, um, I would like to increase the size of that parking lot. Right now, you may get

four cars in there, but if we expand it anymore, um, we are going to have to do something with uh, storm water management and take an engineered approach to that. But I I apologize, Dr. Hoffman. The other thing is it does um the paving company has the option to take them back themselves or um if a local resident wants it, um they try and work something out with the uh whoever this the successful paving company is, right? We were talking about the hawking farm. If if next time you drive past the hawking farm, look over and you will see um a massive pile. Um that was from the state. That was when the state was working on 841. Um so the hawking farm's right on 841 and that's where they they piled it. And there's some other places around here where they piled it and mo most of those are now gone. Uh they're they're now little country lanes on properties. Sorry. How how would you so how would you see the or proposing to the contractor for and us identifying the areas to make these pods and Dr. out. I'm sorry. Well, do you have additional specifications to make, Jeff? Um I I assume that there's going to be further specifications um that need to be made for these projects.

There will be a big package um that will be in draft form. Um and then we will then talk about this at the April 16th meeting. and see if the um board wants to move forward with um our recommendations, which would be for me and the engineer. Going back to Dr. Hoffman's question, or at least I think it was a question to me. Um, I have no idea if it would cost more money or not because now you're having trucks wait um put them along the side of the road and then um tamp it and rake it out. So, just to be honest with you gentlemen, I I don't know how much extra that could cost. I I just don't know. So to answer your question, I think that I mean I would I would definitely volunteer to mark up areas that I thought were appropriate on on the uh on whatever documents get sent out as part of the bid. Well, I I think well, my recommendation would be for someone to go to the board meeting. I I don't know who that that would be to propose that idea to the board of supervisors before we do anything else. Yeah, obviously they have to they have to weigh in on this idea. But I would go I mean I would

I mean we want to try to do something even though or I mean we shouldn't do something just to do it but I do think what Chuck is proposing you know if we can clean up when we have an opportunity every spot at a mailbox box. [Music] Um, it starts to help even with the wearing of the uh edge of the paving if the um postmasters going off the edge of the paving into mud versus um having something harder to uh to travel on. Um, the one reason I asked if we were able to store some, it is an extra cost, but even if it wasn't part of the project, is it's something that we do with our own road group periodically and not even necessarily at these locations that we're paving or patching, but where we have the opportunity to correct a bad area on a on a township road. What we do, Dr. Hoffman, we use um millings to um what they call surge stone, which is um smaller aggregate stone. It's maybe about the size of my fist on down so it locks in uh along the edge of the road. That seems to hold up the best with uh trucks, u drivers, and the post office. We don't normally we let me rephrase that. We we try and do some of those areas each year. Um now where they're

located aren't always around mailboxes or interfering with the road. Um I'm not saying there's not something out there, but nothing that comes to mind at the moment. I mean, I think we did a good job along Clint Hill. And you're right, there's no mailboxes on that side that we did a good job on. Um, thank you, Chop, for offering. I'll do my best to be there with you. Okay. [Music] Um, any other discussion about these projects for 2025? The one I don't I wouldn't say this to add anything in 2025, but it seemed like the um the Kimble lot lane Uh, it definitely needs paving, but it looks like it's a would has the potential to connect the land trust property on uh parcel on Peale to our township park. Um, is that part of Parsons from the park to 896 in any plans to be improved? We're going to be doing patching on Parsons probably over the next two years. Just areas right now that we're chasing, Dr. Hoffman. Yeah.

And and I I know I I worry too much, but then you're encouraging people to cross 896 on the on the Parson's Road. Um I I know I realize we all have different thoughts, but um people really fly down that road and around that curve there at Frankarts. That's why I think it's important that we don't actually try to do a walking area, but more of an area, a series of areas where people can step off the road. And I think that's important to differentiate between. It's it's not in intended to be a trail in my mind. It's intended to be a place that so you're walking your dog and and you can you can see two cars coming. Right now people tend to jump sides. They're already jumping one side to the other. So we just create, you know, as many of these little spots where you can you can just jump off the road and stand and wait for the car to go by because I'm sensitive to what you're saying, Jeff. that we don't we don't want to be dictating where people are driving or I'm sorry walking. General question and apologize for jumping in. The area you're talking about, Chuck, would that be part of the township easement or would we need to get the homeowner's permission? Uh there's there's plenty of space on the side of the road and the and all the all the current rightways. Um Gotcha.

There may not be enough room for sidewalks with in certain locations. Um but that's a full sidewalk. This this is literally uh four feet on the side of the road and that's well within all of our rightaways. Gotcha. So the township would be responsible for maintaining that going forward, not the homeowner. Yeah, I mean it's Yes, it's part of the road. Perfect. Any other discussion? Okay. I mean, it doesn't require a motion or anything. It's um more just to have some comments down on paper knowing that Chuck will go to the supervisor meeting with the recommendation. I mean, I think it's a good recommendation. That does. How do the rest of us feel? That makes sense. Sounds like a good idea. Worthy. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. When is Jeff? It will Let me check my calendar again. It will be April 16th at 7:00. I'm not going to be here.

I'm in Barbados. That's terrible place. Don't go. I That's a better place to be. I um I'd like to um I can't commit at this point, but um maybe we can we're going to lose a lot of thunder if we try to put it in writing, but what what's the date? I'm sorry. The 16th of April. Um I mean I'm I'm obviously shiny new with this, but uh if you need somebody just to go to the supervisor's meeting to present our position, I can do that. That'd be awesome. Uh yeah, I think that would be great. Zach, is it possible just to get a a brief synopsis written up so I'm not mistating anything? Yeah. Yeah, I'll I'll put together something and I'll share it with everybody. Okay. Then I will uh I'll commit to being there on the 16th. Thank you. Yeah. Um great. I think the rest of the agenda is on to public comment. Being no public, um do I have a motion to adjurnn? I make a motion to adjourn tonight's meeting. Great. Thank you, Chuck. Second 7:39 by the record. And if you want any uh suggestions on Barbados, I was just there a month ago. So, yeah.

Cool. Cool. Um just as a practical matter, are we generally of the impression now that unless we have uh someone coming in to do a presentation that all of these meetings will by default be uh remote? It's great. Um are we still recorded, Jeff, or are we done? Uh, how about how about I stop the recording?