City Council - Regular Meeting

Thank you. So, good evening everybody and welcome to the city council meeting for March 5th, 2026. This is our special reorganization meeting tonight. We will start with item number one, which is our pledge of allegiance. And we're asking our new counselor, Beth Sigman, would you please lead us in the pledgece to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you, Beth. You know what? I'm actually supposed to be That's right.

No, we don't have to do it all over again. Fell down on my job. Um the awkwardest

five minutes of your council meetings of the year. Um, so, uh, the next item on the agenda is the instructions for exiting the building in case of an emergency and review of technology options. So, for those in the room, if there's an emergency in the room, you can go out the rear of the auditorium on the left or right side and then turn left or right to get outside. For those participating remotely, thank you for joining us. As well, if you'd like to speak during any item on our agenda, um, you can raise your hand or indicate in the Q&A that you would like to speak and I will have the chair call on you. Other than that, we are not monitoring the chat for content. Um, so the next item on our agenda is um agenda review, additions, deletions, or changes in order of the agenda. Does the council have any changes? All right. Seeing none, the next item on our agenda is are is questions or comments from the public not related to another agenda item. Is there anyone in the public that would like to address the council? Seeing none, no Barb. Um, all right. So, with that, our next item on our agenda is um appointing um officers for this new city council. Um, so under section 1331303 of the city's charter, uh, the council is required to elect a council chair, vice chair, and clerk um at their first organizational meeting. So the floor is open for nominations.

I move that we keep the three that we have as is. Can I second as a slate? as a slate. So there is a motion on the floor and just for the record that is to have uh councelor Barrett serve as chair, councelor Chelnick serve as vice chair, and councelor Fitzgerald serve as clerk. Yes. And seconded by Andrew. Any other any discussion? Seeing none, all those in favor, please say I. I. And you are unanimous. So I will turn the table over to the chair.

Thank you very much, city manager. And uh we will go on to item number uh six, which is councelor's announcements and city manager report. Um, would the newest counselor, Beth Ziggman, like to give her uh city councelor announcements for the evening? Uh, I have no announcements. Thank you very much. Uh, Lori,

um, I did have an NRCC meeting last night. Um, and they're quite busy. They're also working on their 2027 work proposed work plan to to present uh for priorities and strategies meeting. Um they are almost done with a with a tree plan that they've put together with the arborist. Um and I think at the next meeting that will be ready to be moved to wherever it's going to be moved to. And there was a question about what that would be. Um and they're they're working on a number of educational initiatives around uh road salt education around uh uh pollinator and rewing and they're working on on sort of getting together information about meadow management, the various types of meadows, the various methodologies for man managing different parts of open space that will be available to um be used for implementation once the park and open space master planning process is complete. Um and they got an update on the parks and open space plan and how that's moving forward. and was also mentioned that Burlington has a new open space plan which is actually quite comprehensive and something for our team to be looking at as we're moving forward with our plan. Um that's it since the last election uh the last council meeting except

there was a 14 and a half hour day on Tuesday and um things went really smoothly and it was good thing to have it now behind us. We only have to do it twice more this year. That's it for me. Thank you Lori Elizabeth. Um, other than working the polls on Tuesday, um, I do not have any committee updates. Um, I do want to thank those voters who came out and voted for doing that. Um, and, uh, honestly, you know, I'm disappointed and continue to be challenged by the turnout in South Burlington, which seems to be very inconsistent with the community engagement that we normally see. Um, so it would be my hope that we continue to have a dialogue about how to continue to engage our neighbors in uh important issues that we're talking about and the school board's talking about. I did sit in on the um reorganization for the school board and uh Sheamus was reelected uh actually the current officers were reelected in their roles and they did welcome um a writing candidate for the open school board position Alyssa um Gav Galves I believe her name is. Um, so they have a full board now.

Thanks. Thank you, Elizabeth. Andrew,

sure. So, um, there was a conversation with a a counselor where um I had a fascinating conversation with a very um philanthropic gentleman. I don't want to disclose the entire conversation here, but um I'm hoping that that at some point um that I will be able to. Um and it just it was it was very interesting. A gentleman who was just very very committed to really helping the town realize um some of its goals. So very exciting. Um there was there was an election and um kind of a lot of campaigning and I was lucky enough and we're lucky enough really as a city to have Town Meeting TV. I did a couple of interviews and what a what a terrific service um they provide. So that was that was really good. um looking forward to working with our newest counselor, Dr. Beth Sigman. Uh congratulations on a well-run campaign and really congratulations to um Amy Allen, too, who I think also ran a very a very good campaign. In terms of um election turnout, I I also think that is something we need to think about and um wondering whether there is something that we as a council as a city can do to promote that. And one thing may be um to send say a a package to each resident which um you know very digestible. The these are the candidates, these are the issues, maybe a bio of each candidate just like a really digestible summary packet that they have in their hands. You know, it's in comes in the mail, it's in their hands and m maybe that would help facilitate things. I don't know. But one idea I think that would be useful to talk about Great. Thanks, Andrew. Um, so it's been a busy couple of weeks. Um, I attended a planning commission meeting. Uh, unfortunately, uh, Paul was sick, uh,

and Kelsey was on vacation and it was Nick Atheton's last planning commission meeting. And, uh, and then the following night was the energy committee and that was his absolute last committee meeting he was taken care of. So um so there was a little bit of uh you know news about that and uh regret from the committee members that he was leaving. Um so because of that uh one of the items wasn't um they didn't they canceled off the agenda but uh Elana Blanchard gave a really good update on the city center the tip district and what the progress was and what land was left open. Um there were a lot of good qu good questions and then there was an update on the staff's work to update the LDRs with respect to your EV uh charging uh ready you know EV ready uh capability to counteract uh Governor Scott's executive orders. So that work is going on as well. Um at the energy committee meeting uh we talked about the RBS CBS inspections and whether or not the city might want to get involved in that. uh they had some feedback about the fair and whether they should do a fair next year, whether they should uh combine the fair with some other activity. So that conversation was ongoing. Um of course we had our our Monday night pre-election town meeting budget presentation by the city and by the school. And uh then of course on Tuesday we had our uh citywide election. And I'm also grateful to the voters for approving the city budget and also the school budget and uh selecting a new city counselor. I think it was a really fair and good campaign on on both part of both candidates and uh I'm grateful for

and what and the bond issue right for the fire station edition as well. Thank you. Um if you didn't realize uh a week and a half ago there was a gallery opening out uh in the hallway for Susan Samara. She works with fiber arts and and other media and she gave a really interesting talk about about where she accumulates those things from those those those bits of fragments of fabric and whatnot and how much of her house is occupied by by that quantity and u so it was really a nice opening. Um, last night I went to the Williston Road scoping study by the CCRPC for Mary Street and the hotel road along the Delta Road that goes over across the Wind Jammer entrance and that problematic intersection, those two, you know, the curb cut for Mary Street and then the intersection and and it was sort of like bring any idea that you have could go on the table as fantastical as it might be, right? And they would try to to somehow analyze that uh for a future uh meeting. So, that's really good because that's a pinch point on Willist Road if you haven't noticed that, you know, everybody wants to go to Starbucks or mostly Starbucks in the morning, right? And want to turn left. They get off the interstate. I get my I've ordered my coffee and I want to go pick it up, right? And that intersection, there's no left turn dedicated left turn lane. So, that's that's a problem. Um, I also had a uh Chinen County Communication Union District meeting uh from 3:00 to 4 uh actually 3 to 3:30 on Wednesday where we approved an audit from a firm of the uh union district's last two years of uh expenses and payouts. And the reason that we had this meeting was because um we're required by law to have this audit, but the only company that actually responded to the RFP wanted $28,000 for I think was a collection of four payments out of the the budget. Um very little activity uh with that money that's in that uh

account. So uh there was a lot of grilling of the vendor about that. Uh the way it ended up was that he sort of promised that he would show his billable hours and it would be no more than $28,000, but the the district was unhappy to say the least with that cost, which was which legally required to have that done. So anyway, um I guess that's all I have for now. Thank you very much, Sam report.

Thank you. Um, so also want to sincerely thank the voters for the approval um with 64% of the city for the city budget and 72% approval for the fire prevention unit bond vote. Uh we are really excited to um continue to provide the services the community expects for the next um 15 months or so. So thank you to the voters and welcome to councelor Ziggment. Um couple other quick updates. Um Alana has applied. You all approved this at your last meeting. applied last week for both the Northern Borders Regional Committee Commission grant and the second FE third federal grant uh for to close the funding gaps in the TIP budget. We are also submitting two congressionally directed spending requests for to help close that gap, too. So, lots of applications out there. Huge thanks to Alana for um grant writing intensely for a couple of weeks. Um, also wanted to share with you that um, two of our police officers, Officer Bird and Officer Kangja Almstead have success successfully finished last week their field training. Um, these were the two officers who started with us um, as students on summer bike patrol, then went to the academy starting last August and just this week um, finished their field training. So they are off on their own uh, um, patrolling our city. So very exciting. They are both uh tremendous professionals, but also um you know it's Mar beginning of March and they started with us in early August and that's the timeline to get them fully trained up and ready to go.

How many open um positions are there then with the with the two additions? Eight. Um and then finally wanted to call your attention to two uh library things. one um on March 17th, the library is hosting a Vermont trivia night. If the council I tried to get the leadership team excited to launch a team to challenge the council team, I was not successful in that, but if members of the community or the council are interested in our Vermont trivia team night on March 17th, it's going to be a great event. You have to register your team by March 12th.

You're obviously intimidated. Um and it's part of the uh 20 250th anniversary celebration. Um and then the library is closed for the community on March 11th. They are doing their annual uh full day staff um retreat and training training. So they will be the library will be closed that day. And that's all I got other than all the other things I'm going to talk to you about tonight. Do we have a council trivia team? How how many is there a minimum number of people required for a team? Do we have to warn for that? Well, one, it will be in, we talked about this, it'll be in public and as long as you don't um debate city business while you're answering questions, it probably is okay.

Is one of the categories attorney rules and depends on the questions too, right? Yes, it kind of depends on the question. What night is that? It's the So, the event is March 17th. You have to register your teams by March 12th.

It's St. Patrick's Day, isn't it? No beer allowed in the library probably. Okay. Well, I'm up for it if anybody else is. So, okay. So, we have at least two. We'll work on some more. All right. Thank you. Uh moving on to uh item seven, which is re is received an orientation on council service roles and responsibilities and general government operations with city manager Jesse Baker. So, um, apologies in advance. You're going to listen to me talk a lot this evening, but I do think it's worth annually reviewing how we operate as a body or how you all operate as a body, what our authorities are um, across roles and, um, really uh, focus us on the good governance that we owe the community to carry forward. every day.

A request since we're going to be looking at the screen a lot. I just want to readjust that screen. I don't know if I can do it or I need Travis. Okay. I don't know if you're getting the glare. Thank you. Perfect. Thank you.

Thank you.

You're welcome. Um so I will also say that um Well, I I will talk through this. Um the obviously four of you have been functioning very well as a city council. Um and Steve and Colin have been doing this work alongside us. Um so jump in folks if I if you have questions or ideas or anything that you want to add to this conversation. Um so this is what I'm going to talk about. I would really encourage all of you to ask questions as we go. Um if you have questions, the community definitely has questions and part of this is um ensuring that we are as transparent as possible about how we operate as a municipal government. So um our uh our form of government is what's called a council manager form of government. Um you again are all are very aware of this. Um so as opposed to other communities around us um how our government functions is you five are elected as you know from the um residents at large um you then hire a professional city manager. I am the CEO of the city. Um that is outlined in state statute under t title 24 and our municipal charter. Um in your presentation that's linked on your agenda for the community and for the council. Anywhere that's red underlined is a hyperlink to those relevant documents. So tried to create this as a resource for the community and the council to use over time. Um to me the most important part of our form of government and why um I have chosen it as a profession is that I believe it's the form of local government that allows us to hold the mo most trust with the community and really focus on how we make decisions in the best interest of our all of our residents um and provide that outside of any other political pressure. Um, so I'm going to talk about our different authorities for a few minutes.

So, um, under our municipal charter and your adopted rules of procedure, which is a future agenda item on your agenda tonight, um, your primary way to think about your primary authority is that you do three things. You decide what people can do with their land or their public um activity through ordinances and through land development regulations. You decide what we're going to do with other people's money, i.e. how we're going to structure our government and pay for things. And you hire a city manager to run those things. Um so that those are that's kind of the cliffnotes version. You also appoint a bunch of people, which you will do later on in this agenda. You serve um you appoint people to boards and committees. You serve as any um board that has a statutory requirement that's not otherwise appointed. So the liquor control board, the board of health, cemetery commission, um you have a few the water commission we or storm water appeal board we recently appointed. Um things that are in ordinance that don't sit somewhere else. Of course, you make ordinances. You hold the sole authority to um acquire, sell, and lease property. So I can't enter into those agreements. Those agreements all have to come to you. Um and of course you provide the fiduciary oversight of the city. Um the city manager authority again as outlined in the charter um and I am a member of the international city management association. So I follow the uh ICMA's code of ethics. I serve as the city c uh CEO. Uh it's my responsibility to prepare all with my team to prepare budgets and administer them to oversee all ordinances and enforcement. Um I serve as the personnel director to the city and have the exclusive authority to hire my manage and if needed fire staff. I'm going to talk about that more a little later. Um it is my obligation to regularly report to you on finances and operations and I serve as your primary

support. So I am your only staff person. I am here for whatever you need. Um, it's one of the best parts of my job. Please call on me if I can help in any way. Um, I think it's important to note that many of our staff also have independent statutory authority under title 24 and our charter. Um, so those I bring this up to say there are uh a lot of things our team does that they do independently in executing the laws of the state. meaning I can't direct them to do something else and you can't direct them to do something else. A very accessible example of this is I can't tell the police chief to go arrest somebody if they haven't violated some statute. Um same for the zoning administrator, um building inspector staff, the city clerk. Um this is my one of my favorite dorky images that the four of you have seen several times. It's a really useful image to me as we think about the primary work we all the five the six of us primarily do together talking about the mission of the city the policy of the city how we're going to administer that policy and how we're going to manage the city and what I like about this with the council tasks on the left and the administration tasks on the right is that the reality is that none of us hold sole authority for either for any of the things. There is always kind of a teeter totter behind you ultimately are accountable for policy but it is staff's professional obligation to make recommendations and provide you um unbiased information about that how that policy that you could adopt. Ultimately, it is your call, the policy you adopt, and it is ultimately my responsibility to implement any policy you set, but we all own a little bit of each other's throughout the swish.

So, with that authority conversation, um I'm going to move to talk about your rules of procedure. These are, um the rules that are outlined in the previous year's rules of procedure. you have them before you tonight as well, though they are a policy of the council. You can change them if you'd like, but this is how we're currently functioning. Um, and I think it's important to walk through them. So, I want to uh begin this by saying all council meetings and all committee meetings are meetings of those groups in public. They're not necessarily all public hearings or public debates. The role of the council is to get done the work of the community. Um, so you are to take action. You are to have debate. You are to collect information whether that's from your professional staff or from the community and the public and debate that um you are it's not necessarily the role of the council to be debate with the public during these meetings. Um so to en ensure we're doing that and holding that trust following some rules of procedure is really important. Um so as you know you just elected officers the chair runs the meeting. um a quorum of the council is three meaning if there are only um if there it's not a qu it's not the majority of those present it's the majority of the full council. So you have to have three counselors uh present to take action. Um it also means if you're out in the community um having a meeting where you're discussing and debating what you're going to do and then you come into the meeting and take action that is considered a violation of quorum. Um all actions and direction of the council are done in the affirmative. So you don't vote not to do something, you have to vote to do something. Um each an agenda each agenda includes um a set of things. There is by statute there has to be an opportunity for public comment at the beginning of each meeting. Um you have to uh approve your agenda, add or

take things off at the beginning of your meeting. Um we often have a consent agenda which is made up of items for which you have already established policy that we are bringing back to you or are um dimminimous items that we are doing as part of your fiduciary or other oversight of the city. You then have um action items. We do reports from the managers and the counselors counselors and then obviously executive sessions as needed. In your agenda, you will see that the vast majority of agenda items, unless they're really preunctery, have um cover sheets attached to them. These are one pagers that um the department heads and staff complete for you to give you a uniform quick glance at what's being asked of you, what the financial impacts are, how they connect back to the city plan, and any background information. There's often usually many more pages of documentation behind that, but it's our attempt to um allow you to have that kind of flashback um data source. Um in our rules of procedure, uh the chair speaks on behalf of the council and no counselor can speak for the council unless otherwise approved to do so. Um the chair and I set the agenda for the meetings. Um, two counselors can request any item be added to the agenda. Um, and we ask for those the Tuesday prior to a meeting. When Tuesday is the day, just for so you all know, Tuesday is the day where department heads have to provide me information for the agenda. Wednesday, I review all of those documents and we publish the agenda on Thursdays. Each week you will also, well, most weeks you will get a uh I will share with you an agenda planner. It's a large Excel workbook that has a tab for each meeting throughout the year. It's what we use um every day as a tickler system

of what's coming to the council when. So, in order for us not to surprise you, uh we share that with you so you know what's coming up in the public in the future. Yeah, my uh my uh microphone on. So, um and maybe you talk about this later. Are you going to go into more detail about the the uh procedure for discussing things with the public? I mean, I know the council often discusses things amongst themselves, but I'm wondering what the rules are around interacting with members of the public when they make public comment.

Um, I know that when they make public comment that's not on the agenda, we're not allowed to respond to that. But what are the rules for, you know, if someone's making a comment on something that's on the agenda, are we allowed to discuss that directly with the person who's at the podium? So, that's a great question and I would encourage the five of you to have a conversation about that. There's no statutory requirement about that. Um, there is how we have done things and I think that there are best practice of how to run the smoothest meetings given that. that there that is a that is a standard that you all could set among yourselves. Okay. Would you like me to pause here to have that conversation

or keep going and come back to that conversation? Well, I think you'll see later you have a another slide that talks about uh how the meeting is run and and how the public's supposed to address the council chair uh and not other members of the audience or specific counselors unless that dialogue is is is approved so to speak, right? So uh but we you know we take turns right if somebody asked to to speak about something and and you know especially when there's discussion among the council in public right so I I don't I think it's been working well there hasn't been a problem

I think my perspective is that um and on occasion meet we do have back and forth with a member of the public who has something particularly interesting to say expertise to add particular information um I think that can be a useful dialogue doesn't happen all the time but um if it um appears to be useful, I think we should do it.

It's also something that can and has at times gotten a little out of control in terms of keeping a an agenda moving forward effectively and typically it is up to our esteemed chair to um re things in if they're getting off the rails in terms of moving the agenda forward. And I've been guilty of that when I was in chair before at times. So I recognize that. And sometimes the chair has to be reigned in, but not as often.

Yeah. I think I it's a tough line, Beth, from my perspective because you want to give the opportunity for feedback, comments, questions, observations. And I do look to Tim um and then I think it's very appropriate for Tim or Jesse to volunteer clarifying comments because oftentimes that is what the community member is looking for. Um but the the other thing that I think is helpful is to if there are a lot of people in particular if there's not many people it isn't you know that much of a drain on the agenda time but if there are more people interest in a topic you know Tim you typically will set a time frame uh and then invite people to not necessarily repeat the same comments over again uh to sort of add new information to the conversation. And I think that's pretty respectful. It it's a tough balance because I know I've received feedback over the years that sometimes the public can feel very shut down and dismissed and I also think if you don't come to these meetings often and you have a question and it's not on the agenda, you have an expectation that you might get an answer. And that I think that's an opportunity, Tim, for you to remind people that that part of the session is you're not we're not obligated to respond, but that you know, put it in writing, send an email, and they might get a respon or they would more likely get a response that way.

I guess thank you. I would I would just also add I do think um kind of going I'm going to hearken back to something councelor Chlnik said during his updates about um people participating people voting and therefore feeling like they have access to government and I I think one of our key roles is to ensure that everyone who is before us has equal access and equal privilege and I think that that is hard to obtain sometimes when you're new to sitting in this room and It's very clear that others in the room have relationships with you all or know the language of the policy conversation. You know, it's a culture that we have here in in in this form of government. And so, I think it is something that I think we should pay attention to and make sure that anyone who's speaking is kind of treated the same and has access to the same information. And I'm sure, you know, as we have more conversations about um engagement and access to the policy tables, I think it is something we may want to talk about through the year of how we make that more transparent and um and known to more folks who want to show up. So, if you have ideas on that, I certainly welcome. I also say while you're when you are out in the community talking to people um or here at the council meeting, if folks have, you know, how does this work? How do I how do I function in this? you know, how do I make this thing happen? How do I interact with government this way? Always feel free to pass them to me, shoot me an email, say, can you follow up on this? This would be a great idea for a SB bulletin item. You know, we're always look, you have a different pulse of what the questions are out in the public than we do. Um, so it's always useful to hear what what we need to be doing a better job communicating on.

Great question. Keep coming. Keep them coming. Um so um couple of um slides on transparency and ethics. Um so the council and our committees are uh required to follow open the Vermont open meeting law statutes and the conflict of interest statutes. And really the goal of um being transparent and following open meeting laws is to ensure that uh the public trust that the um that you all hold is preserved and ensures that all decisions are made by you all based on the best interest of the municipality. So a few guiding principles as you think about holding that trust and transparency is um everything you do as a counselor is considered a public record. Um, use please use your South Burlington email addresses that you are given. If you send an email to staff from a different email, we are going to put it onto your South Burlington email address. Um, and in the interest of full transparency, we get many, many public records requests a year and we will go into your emails and search things and pull them out. So, just be very conscientious about what you put in uh your government emails and use them for city business. If you if we uh and the city attorney can speak more about this, um if there's a public records request that references a non- city email, we can go into that account as well and pull things out to be responsive. So, please please be diligent with that. Um we are required to warn all of our meetings and produce minutes. We are also required by statute now to uh video archive them. Thank you, Travis and Meeting TV for your partnership. Um we talked about uh instances where three or more counselors are present. Again really the the idea here is that debate about policy should happen in the public um not just action.

So if you are debating an issue and there are more than three or more of you doing that please do that in public in this public. Um we can use email between the six of us or the seven or eight of us to uh share information. So there are often times when I will email you um updates, documents um different things you will need to know over time. Um that we are that is not considered debate that is considered information sharing. But if you reply all to that and start debating, oh well should we really be going in this direction? Should we go going in that direction? We quickly run the risk of violating that open meeting law. So again, just be aware of that reply all um option. And then for executive sessions, we

on that one, if information is sent out about a particular topic, debate is not an option. But if one of the counselors has additional information that wants to be added for the purpose of discussion in public, that is okay to do. Is that correct? So, Collet, if feel free to jump in here. I'm asking Liz. It's always trying to be clear where that line is.

Yeah. So, my how I interpret it is information sharing is always okay. What isn't okay is, oh, yes, I read that article. It's a good point, but really this other article is a better example of whatever or here's a counter. And then you very quickly get in a you're debating via information thing. Um, so it can be done. Um, I would just be conscious of if the second article is brought forward, it's just say here's another article we might want to consider when we're debating. Yeah. And leave it at that. Is that correct?

Yeah. Um, Colin McNeel, city attorney. Um, yes, that is correct. I think you can use the reply all for limited purposes of scheduling and limited purposes of information sharing. But again, as Jesse uh city manager outlined, it's it's a very fine line and you want to avoid having any kind of discussion or debate um away from the public by means of that reply all function. You know, to that point, Lori, if if an or I I assume that some of that is sharing for what would show up on an agenda item at some point. So, I wonder if rather than because I can imagine there's a little bit of positioning with which articles that might follow on asformational. Um, I wonder if it shouldn't be forwarded by Tuesday to be included in the agenda. Yeah.

As an option. Yeah. Colin, while you're here, because this always comes up as open meaning law, and I know it's not simple, but I just want to I just want to get it out there. Um, let's say I'm chatting with Elizabeth about something. Can I the next day chat with Tim about something similar?

I am so glad you're here, Colin. Yeah, these are I mean these are really difficult conversations. So um consider that our our open meeting law the idea is that we have our conver that you as a public body have your conversations in public that the public can hear and we can document. Um that is the purpose of it and that's what we have uh as a body you're you're you're doing the public's business. So anytime you're not you're engaging in the public's business outside of the public eye, um theoretically that is opposed in opposition to what the purpose of the of the open meeting law is. Um we have issued recommendations and the state has as well the secretary of state league of cities and towns and interpreting this in the courts. Um,

yes.

You know, when you're looking at the reply all function on an email, you're you're looking at a Google document and you're you all have the authority to make edits, even though you're doing them at different times, it's been recommended that that is close enough to a public meeting to be something to avoid. So, I think when you're having conversations, if you're having the same conversation in a chain, like if you're having a phone chain for instance, we don't have those very often anymore. Um but if you call someone and someone calls someone and you're all having the same thing and you actually take a vote basically on that topic um that is a very close to being in violation of the public meeting law. So I think when you're having the conversations like you're having you're entitled to talk to one or two counselors can talk to each other as long as you don't have a quorum and you're not engaging in public business. be very careful and mindful of doing the public business in the public eye uh and trying to avoid having meetings that are not in the public. And in that regard, if two counselors are working on a document that they're preparing to bring forward to council and it's a Google doc and they are both editing it, that is not in violation of open meeting law because it's just two counselors. Is that correct?

The purpose of Yeah. the the prohibition in the open meeting laws to prohibit a quorum from having a meeting. If you do not have a quorum, you're not engaged in a public meeting. Great. Thank you. Um tricky one.

Stay here for just this one and the next one and then I think we'll be good with you. Um so, uh the last the last point about open law and your agendas is uh we do often have executive sessions. Um, in advance of those executive sessions, you will be um, likely forwarded confidential emails that may have documents that we would like you to review in advance of um, in advance of a session. Please do not forward those confidential emails. Uh, Colin and me and our staff try and be very clear when we're sending you an email that's confidential. That will mark that uh, so you are aware. Um, and obviously don't talk about what happens in executive session outside of executive session until a action is taken in open session.

Does the public have no way of ever knowing what goes on in an executive session? That almost seems a bit non-transparent to me. You know, like that could that could foster some suspicion that the council is, you know, doing things that are against the interest of the public.

Um, do they have no way of accessing those records? um they generally do not have there is no minutes that are required to be taken in executive session and it it is the purpose of an executive session is that it's essentially a component of the meeting that is taking place outside of the public. So it's not a public meeting essentially or it's a component of a public meeting that takes place outside the public. Um no action can be taken in executive session. So um discussion can be had on certain limited topics uh for certain limited purposes with certain limited people. Um but no decision can no action can be taken. So any action that the council is going to engage in cannot take place in executive session. You have to come out of executive session to actually take an action

with the can I caveat that in one way? So we do cite on the agenda the re the statutory reason why we're going into executive session and we try and give as much information of that we as we can while protecting your liability rights to hold the executive session. So for example, we will say uh enter into an executive session for the purposes of discussing a um collective bargaining agreement with our fire union. So in that executive session worn for that purpose, that is all we can talk about. We can't then talk about, you know, why Jesse is wearing that crazy suit jacket today. We're talking about solely those things. So we are trying to give the community some notice of what is being discussed while maintaining your right to have that confidential conversation. I think

and I think the other thing to be aware of there's only a limited set of things that the council is permitted

to discuss in executive session and those are things where um you can understand intuitively why they need to be kept out of the you know open debate and in regard to Beth's question we this council has been accused of doing things inappropriately in executive session by members of Republic in the recent past and it's something that we're very aware of and Jesse is and Colin are both really good at making sure that we don't step outside of the bounds of what is allowed in executive session and getting that confirmed with the public is really important to know that we are doing it for a specific fiduciary reason. So although the the session itself is opaque, right, we come out of it, we take action. The action may be to approve a contract and maybe to prove a sale of real estate or purchase real estate, whatever it might be, right? But then the public sees that's what we were talking about. We made a decision and came out and executed that in public. So that's the result of what happened in the session. Um so the kind of other side of transparency um balance to open meeting law is the municipal code of ethics which is also state statute. This recently changed effective last January. Um historically it used to be that the that we had our own uh code of conduct and now there is a a one code of one municipal code of um ethics conduct for all municipalities in the state. It is linked there at that hyperlink. Um all counselors are required to uh do complete a training on that municipal code of ethics uh within 120 days of election. So that is homework for you. Um and then every three years uh after uh the city attorney by um ordinance the

council set is our ethics liaison officer. So there are rules that Colin adheres to as in that context. And then there are a number of resources that the state and the Vermont legacies and towns have put out to summarize uh what a how a conflict of interest is defined um and what you do when you um believe you are either in conflict or could be perceived to be in conflict. Um so the big takeaways here are one please complete the training and understand the statute. um to um it is the counselor's obligation themselves to identify if they have a real or perceived conflict. There's not necessarily a um uh ability for another counselor to uh attach conflict. It is a self-identified conflict. If you are in conflict, you shall not participate um or take action on whatever that item is. Um and the conflict really um is primarily about fiduciary benefit. What this does not mean is I pay taxes in South Burlington, therefore I can't vote on the tax rate because I want my taxes to be lower. Um, if the action you are taking applies equally to all um similarly situated residents, you are not necessarily you are not in conflict with that decision. Um, I do want to note that uh unfortunately the state ethics commission that is charged with enforcing this has suspended all municipal services due to staffing. Um, so I will leave it that there. Um,

so they they won't answer our questions anymore if we have them. That's correct. There's no one there to answer our questions.

Um, but as as we've talked about um um as city attorney, I'm also the ethics leazison. We have a backup um person who's the deputy city manager to uh conduct enforcement actions if there's a complaint. Um so if there is a question about um the ethics uh code of ethics uh please feel free to give me a call and we can chat about it um and and talk it through. Um that would likely result that I am no longer the uh investigator if a complaint comes up about that same action. Um, but I think that's a good service to have and it's I'd rather help out um dealing with ethics potential ethics questions preemptively than uh after the fact. So that is we're available to you

because one one thing that came up when this code first came out was whether the campaign contributions were conflicts, right? It was an unclear but and the state ethics commission clarified that they're not which was helpful. Um, so it's unfortunate that we don't have that anymore.

It is unfortunate, but hopefully it it returns soon. I think it was a matter of staffing. Um, and so we're optimistic that it will come back because that is a valuable resource for for questions and they are under the or under the statute. They are um set up to provide advisory opinions when we ask. Um, so without those services provided, they can't do that service that's that's designated by statute. But so hopefully that comes back soon. Were they the final adjudicator in complaints that ra that were that ascended above the city level or um what is the the appeal process or the you know the steps that are there that happened? I think there is an appeal process set forth. It would be that the liaison officer would investigate and issue a decision based on um whether there is a violation or not a violation. uh that could then be appealed likely to uh to spirit court. I believe that's I think that's how it's set up.

Okay. I didn't know this is a slightly off-topic question, but the municipal code of ethics was implemented by the legislature. It does not cover the legislature if I understand correctly. They they have a separate

they have their separate code of ethics which is quite a bit different than ours. Is any effort being made to bring those two into alignment or is there any uh move from our city to to discuss that and have it be something that gets brought into alignment because it creates a um a bad image to the public to have these bodies operating under such different codes. I'm I'm not aware of any development uh towards that effort. Um I did just want to point out on the website when you go to the municipal code of ethics that's on uh and the training that's here uh councelor Ziggman if you there's it's a little confusing there's a municipal code of ethics and there's a state code of ethics. Please take the training on the municipal code of ethics.

I got that. Yeah. Thanks for a lot of people because we're right next to each other. Okay.

Thank you. Any other questions about this for now? And this is, you know, it's it's very for Stephen Colin and I, it's very important that that we function ethically within our own professional obligations and that we this is the primary way we hold trust with the community. Um, so if you do have questions about this or just want to run an a question up the five pole, please feel free to reach out to Colin or me or Steve. Um, and with that, I'm going to move. So the today so thus far in this presentation I've been talking about authorities and responsibilities and statue. I'm now going to move into municipal operations and I believe that Colin has somewhere very important to be so he may leave us.

Uh my son has a play playoff basketball game tonight so I'd like to go watch. Congratulations to that and thank you. Yeah, thank you.

You call he will be on his phone if we really need him later in the meeting. Um so you are the elected body um charged with pro providing fiduciary oversight and policy guidance to our city staff. We have an amazing team here in South Burlington. I would um argue um the best municipal professionals in the state. Uh we have 192 total employees, 172 full-time employees and then many other part-time um employees, subs and prediums and seasonal staff. Our staff are represented by three bargaining units. So we um there's the career firefighters association, there's the police officers association, and then the state asked me represents our public works city hall and library staff. Um due to a ton of hard work, I should have said this while Colin was in the room by Colin and Steve and Martha and Maddie. Uh we are under contract with all of those bargaining groups at the moment and we have um with the last round of um contract negotiations uh staggered their expiration which means we're not renegotiating all three every um on the same time period which is great. Um the council has the under the charter approves all of our employee policies. So, you um this past council adopted a new employee handbook uh about this time last year, I believe. Um what I want to draw your attention to specifically is one of the key components in that handbook is that the council serves as the hearing officer for step three grievances in the city. Um, and why that's important, that sounds really wonky as I say it out loud, but why that's important is if we are taking a personnel action against a staff person, they have a right to appeal that action. They appeal it at

step one to the department head, at step two to me, and at step three to you. Um, this can be really frustrating for counselors because it means that if we have a big employment action going on, I can't talk to you about it because you all need to be neutral hearing officers to hear grievances against my decision-making. Um, so often I may, not often because thankfully it doesn't happen often, but when it happens, um, there will be times where I will say we have a personnel action going on. Um, I'm not going to share additional information. Sometimes this is I will share that with you because it's something that's in the news. Um, and you will need to stay neutral so you can serve as that step three hearing officer. Any questions, comments on that?

And you can't share that with us until it's resolved because it might go to step three. So there are things that haven't gotten there yet that you can't share with us and we need to understand that. Thank you.

Um so a few things on communicating with staff. So um as I mentioned earlier, I am your staff person. I am the only person that you employ. So questions and requests should all uh come through me. um to the extent that you are asking a question that's a general um general question about city operations or history, I will often share that with the full council. One of the ways I hold trust with the five of you is to make sure you all have as much of the same information as possible. Um so I will do that from time to time. If you're if you're asking me a quick question of like, oh, can you remind me, you know, when that trivia thing was, I'm not going to reply all to the full council and and share that necessarily. Um, we do certainly encourage you to um tour facilities, meet with department heads, uh reach out to us with questions about items on the agenda ahead of time. um our we feel it is our professional obligation to give you the best the best information we can and it's helpful to know what those questions will be in advance. You also can obviously always ask any question. Um we as a team failed to do facility tours for the last two years because we could not find a date that worked for everybody.

I was gonna say that invitation to attend.

Um so please uh there's a doodle poll in your inbox. please complete that. Um, and we will do our best to get you out to all of the facilities in the city. Um, to the extent that you are emailing with a staff person, um, whether it be on a project or as a staff council liaison or with questions, please CC me on that. It helps me, um, one, back up my staff so I'm not confusing you with different direction than our professional experts are sharing. Um, and to uh just make sure we're kind of all staying on the same page. The team is really good at adding me to emails. If if you forget, don't worry about it. They will likely you will likely just see my name pop up on those things. Um,

I'm a little confused. So, we are allowed to communicate directly with staff, but we should but we're not supposed to. It will happen. But if we do it, we should keep you in the loop. Okay. And there are times uh you are not to direct staff to do something and you are not to have kind of offline conversations with them which is why they know to see me. The reality is you will have conversations with staff all the time. I will I will point you to staff. I will say hey can you just follow up with Steve about something? You're going to have that conversation. Um, it's helpful to me to know what that answer was so again I can champion the staff and we can all be as informed as possible.

I would I would recommend if you it's the safest way is always start with Jesse. Let her farm that out to whoever the contact is and then let that conversation happen. But I think if you start with Jesse, it makes everything else much simpler.

Thanks. Um I would uh so this is not in policy it's just a practice that I think works. Um if constituents will ask you operational questions all the time. Um if they are asking you operational questions and you know the answer by all means you are part of the mouthpiece of the city. Feel free to answer those questions. Um, if you don't know, I would highly encourage you to say, I'm not, you know, I've asked the city manager to answer this question. She, you know, she'll keep me on so I can I can track the answer and share those with me while and I'm h and we will answer those questions. Why I think this is best practice is that often those answers are not going to be political wins for you. They're going to ask you, why aren't you paving my street this week or this year? Why is this pothole in front of my house? And it won't the answer will be hard for the constituent to hear. Um that's let me take that. You don't need to you don't need to take that politically. Um that's my recommendation. You certainly can go a different way if you would like. Um the final thing I want to mention is emergency situation. So there will be times um during your service that we have emergent uh fires act you know police operations other emergency situations in the city. Um during those times I will do my best to keep you informed. I want I always try and make sure you hear about things from me before you read about them in the media. Um having said that the primary goal in those situations is keeping the public safe. So there may be times that we don't um we don't want you talking to the chiefs. We don't want you dealing with the first responders because they are actively engaging to monitor an

emergency situation. In those cases, I will be the primary contact. I might bring in the chair to be their primary contact. Um but things like that may happen. Anything to add about that? That's that's worked out well in the in the past because we've had several types different types of emergencies and whether you just give an initial thing. We've got this thing that's going on right now. We'll tell you more later,

right? And and so at least we aware of it, right? But we don't start barging, you know, anybody with questions. So it's good policy. So another significant part of um our operations as a government is the uh boards and committees that you um have convened or that exist in statute. So there's they fall into a couple of different buckets. There's what I call the regulatory committees which are committees that are or boards that are named somewhere in statute. They have often an independent authority outside of uh council or staff. Um there are policy committees of the council. These are solely committees that you all or past councils have identified as um things that are of value to you to hear committee feedback on to as you develop your policies. These are not operational committees. They are really policy advising to you. Um from time to time the council uh appoints task task forces which are really meant to be groups of people coming to do to do to do work that is time delineated. So, produce a climate action plan, consider airport reszoning. Um, and they start and end. Right now, we don't have any task forces operational. Um, and then there's a whole other section of, uh, public organizations that the council either serves on or appoints members to that are regional partners with us in providing services to our um, neighbors. Um, so we've talked a little about this already. Um, constituents, um, again, you they will look to you for all sorts of answers. Please let me know how I can help. Um, to the extent that they're asking questions about how I have allocated resources or managing

services, feel free to pass them along to me. Um the counselors should really um avoid speaking on behalf of the council except as to talk about action that's been previously adopted by the full council. You can obviously talk about your personal opinions um but the council as a whole you have no authority I should have said this much earlier individually you have no authority but for being one of five votes. Um so any action that are that is taken by the council is through a vote of the council. Um similarly similar set of expectations apply in talking to the media. Um primarily the media contact is uh the chair. Um counselors from time to time are authorized to speak to the media on a particular thing by the full council and that's of course um encouraged. Um and uh any day-to-day questions should come from me and I and I do see it as part of my role to be your champion and to speak on behalf of the policy that you also have adopted. So um I can also do that as required. Um I included these as um reference uh in because I think it is really important as we um ensure that we have healthy policy debates that feel people feel welcome at policy tables um that we focus on civility and dignity in the work we do. Um so the dignity index is just a resource that uh several counselors and I heard about at town fair last year. The councelor um Smith wrote a um conversation with the council uh no wrote a councelor corner um on the dignity index and of course a previous council has adopted the declaration of inclusion as well.

Question on the dignity index. Um I know that the Lake Champlain Chamber is what brought it or the Vermont League of Cities and towns is what brought it to us. There was discussion both at that level and I think there's been some discussion at the city level of trying to get some of their materials available in our public spaces. Is that moving forward? Did you know they can? They can. Yes. But it's not currently. Exactly. So it would need a vote of us to make it happen. Or head nods. I mean I would like to see that material made available. I don't know if other people are feel the same way. some work.

Yeah, I mean I agree some work to do or how to how to package it and what exactly it looks like but um it's certainly a very useful set of material. Um yeah, my I was not able to go to that meeting and obviously Beth you were not able to attend um but it might be helpful to put it on an agenda so we could specifically have that discussion of how to utilize those materials. That would be great if we could actually present the materials at that at that conversation. So is that now to be on two counselors are saying thank you. That's a right there too.

Um so I think you all at this point in the year are very familiar with our pro our now approved FY27 total budget. Um uh why I wanted to focus on that for a minute is what is your ongoing role in uh your financial oversight over the course of the year. So at every meeting you will see well not this one but the vast majority of meetings you will see warrants for approval. You have to approve every payment we make as a city. So you will um have that on most of your consent agenda item or consent consent agendas. Uh you also receive monthly financial reports from us per statute. Um and then detailed quarterly financial uh reports. We are working on these right now. Um this year because we implemented our new finance system, we're actually going to provide you with what we're calling kind of quarter two plus which I which will be quarters one to end January, Steve through January. um that give us the best um to give us the um best view of how we are tracking towards year end as we go appro approach quarter 4. Um so you'll get that at your next meeting and we'll have a more detailed conversation about that.

Is that a push button thing that's really automatic now for you just to define the date range and boom just spits out? It's getting closer to that, but but with that, we still send it out to the department heads so that they can provide their narratives about why numbers may look a skew. So, while it's easier real time to show the information, we still ask the departments to do that workload and that's the layer that will that will never go away.

Thanks. Um, and then of course you have your annual budget process that kicks off in September with projections and goal setting. In October and November, staff build the proposed budget. In December and January, the council um receives the budget and discusses it and makes changes um and approves a budget to go to the voters. February focus on education and obviously March is town meeting day. Um, small item for Beth on the bi-weekly warrants. We only meet twice a month. Some months have five weeks. So it is occasional that a warrant gets handled by the chair or the vice chair um to get so that those signatures and payments can go out.

So per per the policy, if we need a special warrant, it's actually the vice chair that reviews and approves that and then it's included in your next um your next agenda. It's really to make sure we stay current on bills and don't get late charges and Yeah.

Um and then obviously it's still the council's role to approve all all special funds, all financial policies, allocations from fund balances, setting fee structures. So you will see throughout the ag throughout the year on the agenda many other financial pieces of policy and action. You also have to approve applying for all grants. Um so I think you all are also very familiar with our organizational documents, our plans for uh who we are as a city and a community. Primarily those are the city plan 2024 and the climate action plan. Um I bring those up to say again I think you all are very familiar with this but um in our form of government there are uh it is our professional obligation to implement the policy that is set by the council. Um and within the city plan there are millions of ways we could do that on a day-to-day basis. Um so we use an annual um what I very dorky call our policy priorities and strategies process. I'm totally open to a better name if somebody can come up with a better name than that. um where we uh go through with the committees, the leadership team, the department heads of the city and the council to decide and align our work plan for the year. What are we doing this year to further the goals of the city plan? Linked here is our um FY26 adopted policies and strategies and the most recent report we did on those pol that set of that shared work plan in February. We're going to talk a little more about that later in our agenda. We're doing a lot of work. Uh the this is just a selection of what's on our current FY26 uh policies and strategies. Um I say this to acknowledge that counselors often can feel really frustrated that

they are jumping on a moving train that there are a lot of things that we do as a city that are that have been underway for months and years and in some cases decades. Um the council obviously always has the ability to shift those priorities. Um but that often will come with um implications. So we you sometimes may feel that we are pushing back on you and what we are really trying to do is outline the implications of changing priorities. Um what the FY26 policy and priorities do not include. They it is not an inventory of all the work the city does. that really is focused on those strategic things we are trying to change for the city. Um, and in addition, the vast majority of our staff are providing core government services. So, police response, fire response, maintaining roads, sidewalks, bridges, um, processing invoices, checking out library books, running programs, etc. Um so in addition to implementing the city plan and in the city plan is obviously um our tiff district and our tax increment financing district and um achieving the goals of city center. Um I think you all know are very familiar with what these projects are. Um happy to answer any questions about them. really excited for the city park, city center park boardwalk to open uh later this year and to get to work on constructing Garden Street connection from Market Street to Millison Road. And all of that is in service to ensuring that we wrap up our tax increment financing district um successfully in 2037 or beyond. We have TIFF is a 20-year effort in Vermont. Uh we are about halfway through that effort. Um

but it is important that we stay focused on it so uh we can successfully wrap up um the debt service obligations we have under our tiff district and you will hear much more about this over the course of the year. Um so I want to share a bit about how we communicate with the public. Um, so we have, um, kind of our primary tool is the website or our South Burlington Bulletin, formerly known as City News, uh, that goes out twice a or every other week. Uh, to folks who have signed up for it. We really encourage you to, um, encourage people to sign up for South Burlington Bulletin. Um Andy who you met earlier tonight is our communications and outreach manager and he works with the department heads of the city to make sure that we are or to try and get out as much information in a succinct accessible way as possible. If you have suggestions about items that we should include how we message things differently, we are always open to those.

Did you meet?

Sure did. Yep. Um, so we also have all of our social media accounts, our ENO report and our budget book. Uh, you all have conversation with the counselor which is later on in your agenda and town meeting TV is a great partner in broadcasting our statutory committees and archiving all of our meetings per statute. So finally, just wanted to share this slide is a little different than the one in your packet because I added some things and um, Adam shared with me today. Um so upcoming opportunities again uh facilities tours please uh complete the doodle poll. Um the prior council found it very useful to have what what we called working meetings or meetings in 301 that were warned and video and broadcast uh but were around a table were more conversational. Um so at your pleasure we can certainly do that again. Um March 30th is the next Jenning County Municipal Elected Officials uh forum. Um I'd encourage two of you to identify yourselves to attend that that um there are quorum issues associated with that. Um Adam Math, our recreation director, and his team have done an amazing job putting together an international food festival that will be uh April 19th here at city hall. Illuminate Vermont. Our annual Market Street Festival is April 24th and 25th. And our first inaugural Brew the 802, which is our uh our beerfest. Sure. Uh is May 23rd here on Datilio Drive. Um I believe he has 14 breweries lined up to attend that brewfest. And then um hopefully in June or July we will do our FY27 policy priorities and strategies working meeting

the county sorry oh that's the training triangal form is that the same thing that CCRPC has been doing regularly. Yeah. Is that typically just being um presented by or represented by Tim and Andrew or is it going to be circulated around? You guys can decide that it should only be two of you. It's only two.

At some point it might be I'd like to have continuity in the presentation. So if it's better for just the two of you to do it regularly, I'm fine with that. But it um could be interesting to get the perspective of of our community or our neighboring communities. Um so I would have been interested in attending last year if we had more opportunity. But yeah, I I think I just thought I'd raise it as as a question. I was adding things to my calendar. So remind me what are you what are you what event are you talking about? Yeah, the CCRPC the CCRPC little pizza parties we have. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. your pizza parties. Well, we can I mean, I want more pizza. No,

I mean, we can we can shuffle it around if you want. I mean, it's they're really informational and it's good to network and make connections with other counselors and select board people. And so, I I don't mind like if it's if it's more effective to have two people always representing. It is. I think I'm I'm open to doing that, but I just was it would be fun to go sometime or interesting. You just want some pizza is what you want. That's right. just expanding that connection around the the communities. So the next one is March 30th. So you all may want to talk about who's going to that one.

It's been published. So we've only been to one. I mean I I think continuity is useful, but I'm also um I've been to two. I've been to one very h I mean if if someone else really wants to go then yeah I think there's there's just not another opportunity like that for networking so I would I would appreciate going but I understand the continuity issue maybe it makes sense to have our chair if possible always attend and just rotate the additional position we I can try unless there's a conflict unless I I'm going to have

Yeah, of course. Of course. But I'm happy to have to defer to somebody else right now. I don't feel a need. I just wanted to bring it up as conversation. All right. So, 10 minute Elizabeth for March 30th. Okay. And can I bring up on the um communication? I don't think the um counselor corner in the other paper was highlighted. No.

Um and I know I brought this up last year and it seems like it's a kind of ad hoc as to when one of us might write an article and what we write about. Um, I still think it might be helpful if we had some rotation and maybe a person still wrote what they wanted to, but just let each of us know what they were going to write on. But just to give some visibility to each of us um, in that form because I think we've not published in some editions and um, and it's been kind of a a popery of topics. So I I kind of um think I like not having like a formal rotation because

you know there may be a time when there's nothing that I really do want to write about and then all of a sudden it's like oh you know what I really want to write about that thing and it may not be necessarily on that timetable. So I I guess my perspective would be if one of us has something that they want to write about share it with the other councils that I'd like to write about this thing. Okay. Do you want to see it? And that that seems to be working. Okay. Elizabeth, do you think there's a cadence that we wanted to maintain throughout the year? Like

I guess that's what I I mean given given that there has been some feedback that the public you know um some of the public may feel like they don't get enough information. I think a presence is helpful. Um and I also think just a reminder sort of who who's on council, who to contact, that sort of thing. Um I I understand your point and I don't think it. I don't think it necessarily has to be um a schedule, but maybe just an attentiveness to is anybody doing something this month or is anybody interested in doing something this month and knowing there are deadlines for those too. Um so maybe that's more what I'm suggesting than a formal calendar

and to the point of communicating with the public. Um Amy Allen in her campaign and during your debate brought up that she had lots of ideas for how to do more with video and other things for communicating. She talked about it at a council uh conversation with the council once. I think anything we can do to improve our communication with the community is excellent. And um I'm intending to reach out to Amy to see if she's willing to engage with some of the thoughts that she had to help that process move along. So why don't I do Do you think monthly is a is a goal?

I think that's a good goal. Good goal. Okay. All right. So why don't I take responsibility for that? All right. and and try to elicit responses from counselors on a monthly basis and say, you know, here's the schedule, here's the deadline for each each of the weeks in that month, you know, for for getting something in the paper and just try to, you know, to get it in there for that month. And and if you want to give me ideas about things that we should communicate, that that's fine, too. Any other questions or comments? Did I cover it all?

Wastewater tour. That's number one. I'm telling you, it sounds very interesting, actually. It's highly scientific. It's really fascinating. Interesting. Okay. So, you have lots of other agenda items that we keep speaking to, but That was item seven. So now we're going to go to item eight, which is adopt the 2026 to 2027 city council rules of procedure.

So a few So you have attached a draft of this procedure. This is there. This is the same document that the council adopted last year just with updated names and dates. Um so there's no I'm not recommending any changes to this procedure. It is based on a model Vermont League of Cities and Towns policy. Um, and I think I've talked to most of what's in there already in the orientation. But um, I guess just to say a few more things about um, agendas and council meetings that is outlined in this procedure. Uh, one just reminder as you've already done tonight, two counselors are needed to add any item to an agenda. um or by our charter says that 15 if 15 folks come forward and ask for an agenda item, we are required to put it on an agenda, which I had forgotten about until I reread this. Um and then if you counselors are allowed to participate in meetings remotely via Zoom. Um and if a counselor is participating participating remotely and there's a non-unanimous vote, we will do all votes by roll call uh for the record just to it's part of statute. Um, that's what I wanted to highlight.

To approve. So, I move to adopt the 2026 2027 city council rules of procedure. Second. We have a motion and a second. Do we have a discussion on this item? All those in favor say I. I. I. It's unanimous. We've adopted the council rules of procedure. Thank you. Item nine, appoint charter and ordinance required positions for a period of one year as outlined.

So it in your uh agenda is a cover sheet that outlines all of those positions that are either listed in our city charter or listed in um ordinance um and who I am asking you to appoint into those positions. All of the people are remaining the same from last year to this year. Uh but for um Marty who was our assistant zoning administrator who left us this past year, we are now asking for Alex who has replaced him to be put into that position. And we are adding just uh Justin Mackey as our second constable who is a sworn police officer who lives here in South Burlington.

So I move I move to adopt the individual below to specific positions per the city charter and city ordinances as outlined below. Second that. We have a motion and a second. Any discussion? All those in favor say I. I.

I. It's unanimous. We're now at item 10, which is discuss and possibly approve the 2026 city council meeting schedule pursuant to the city charter chapter 13 section 305A. Um so according to the city charter as soon as possible after the election which I guess we have not done as soon as possible of the officers um you are to fix the time and place of your regular meetings and meet at least twice a month. Uh so I've outlined if we assuming we keep the first and third Mondays of the month at 6:30 what those will be throughout the year and any um big notes about those meetings throughout the year. Um, and just to note also that this does not include steering committee meetings, which are joint meetings of the city council and school board that we by charter are to have four times a year. Um, nor does it include likely a special meeting needed the week of June 29th to set the municipal tax rate, which is uh required by statute, but also a math equation. So, not one that you have a lot of flexibility in doing. So I would recommend

and this does not include um like our retreats, right? You can always add to this for retreats or working meetings. I move to approve the 2026 2027 council meeting schedule as presented. Second. We have a motion and a second. Any discussion? I did indicate already to Jesse and you, Tim, that I am not available April 6th. April April 6th. Yeah, April 6th. Okay. and will be here April 20th if the plane arrives. All right. U all those in favor say I. I. I. It is unanimous.

Item 11, designate the other paper as our official paper of record. Um so by statute, you are to have an official paper of record. It's where we do all of our public hearing notices. Um, we have used the other paper for many, many years. Um, because it's sent to every home seems to be the most appropriate. We need a motion. So, I move to designate the other paper as our official paper record. Second. We have a motion and a second. Is there any discussion? Uh, just for your information, their headquarters has moved to Stow. They they no longer have, I think, an office in South Bington anymore. So, that was published in their paper itself. So, all those in favor say I.

I. I that is unanimous. Item 12, designate TD Bank as our official depository. I move to designate TD Bank as our official depository. Second. We have a motion and a second. Any discussion? All those in favor say I. I.

I. That is unanimous as well. So item 13, discuss and possibly approve the council liaison for each policy committee and the FY27 policy priorities and strategies process. So I added this to this um agenda because one um with the addition of councelor Ziggman um you have the opportunity to look at your liaison uh appointments who serves as a liazison to what committees and just a reminder I want to define what the role of a council liaison is. Um so one it should be appointed by the full council to each policy advisory committee. Um the only exception to that is the by by charter the chair serves as liaison to the planning commission. Um the council liaison are not to vote as part of the committee unless um as specifically designated. So I believe like when we started the climate action task force the appointees were appointed with voting power. So that's the exception to that. Um the council leazison is to work with the staff leaison chair to guide the committee's work and to be um the kind of spokesperson of the council's vision for the committee to the committee and to be keep the full council in uh informed about what each committee is working on um and support the chair in bringing items to the council. And you're not necessarily expected to attend all the meetings because it's a lot um but certainly encouraged to do so. So, so there's that part. Do you want to have the discussion tonight about uh who's going to be assigned to what committees? Um, and then the second part of the request is um we have in past meetings talked about doing a better job integrating the committees uh anticipated or requested work plans into our policies and

strategies annual process. And in order to do that, the time's a tick. Um, so my hope was to have you all review the schedule that was in the packet. Um, and think about as council liaison to the committees working with the staff liaison in March and April to finalize those proposed work plans for FY27 so they could come to the leadership team and council in May and June as part of our building of our shared work plan. So those are the two requests. And if you need more time to think about this, we certainly could put it on um put it on your next agenda as well.

Quick question. Um I should know this because I'm on the energy comm. I was on the energy committee. I guess I might still be. Um are those meetings recorded? No,

they're not. Okay. there. The statute requires us to record um council meetings, DRB meetings, planning commission meetings, library trustees meetings, and BCA meetings. One thing I'd like to possibly carry over to our next meeting would be to have a conversation or start the conversation about the makeup of our committees and if and where consolidation or reconfiguring committees would be useful. Um, one area of conversation certainly is between the recreation and parks committee and natural resources committee and there may be other committee structures where that's also worth talking about. So I would like to see that at some point. I don't feel the need to do it tonight. Do we also need to appoint the newest counselor to a committee?

All of them. There is definitely one open slot in there. But before we do any appointments, does anybody have a desire to shift committees or absorb more or or take give one away? Is everybody comfortable with what they have at this point and like their committees? I I mean I I'm satisfied. Um so the only opening there is public art. Beth, would you like to be the liaison to the public art committee? All I can tell you is that it's the most fun committee of all of them. Sure. It's really fun and everybody in my family is an artist. So, you know, it's a good fit. Um, when do they meet? Do you know?

It's Wednesday Tuesdays at 5:30. Tuesday. Tuesdays or Wednesdays at 5:30? Tuesday or Wednesday. Okay. Wednesdays at 5:30 would be doable. I I'd have to know exactly when they meet. I don't want to commit to something that's going to be challenging to get to from work. Um, They per the website, they meet the third Tuesday of the month at 5:30. The third Tuesday. Third Tuesday at 5:30. That should probably work. Um, are we not reconfiguring the other assignments at all? Say it again. We're not reconfiguring the the other assignments. So, everybody's going to keep their assignments and everybody seems comfortable with what they have at this point.

Okay. Yeah. Put me on public art. We we have shifted mid mid year when you need if somebody has a conflict and somebody else wants to can cover it, we swap. Okay. You're you're still doing energy committee is that? Yeah. Yeah. And you want to continue that? Oh, you were on the energy committee? I was on the energy committee. Would you like to do the energy committee as well or do you do you want um would you rather be an energy committee than public arts or did you want to do two committees? I would rather be on the energy committee than public art. Okay. Um I think two committees would be maybe feasible, but I would not make every meeting just to be realistic. Um All right. Yeah.

Well, I I'm entirely comfortable with letting you take the energy committee and I'll move back to public art. Great. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. If you're okay with that. Yeah. Great. Okay. Thank you. I'm sure they miss you already. I doubt it. I miss them. We're just getting started. Now you get to sit in a different chair. But yes, so that's fine. I'm comfortable with that. Do you need a motion? No. Just Okay.

Um can I make a comment on um I'm a little bit concerned about the time frame on the work plans. Um I was envious of your comment Lori where the NRCC group was on theirs but the housing committee I know um the chair Norah Senacle is out for our meeting next Wednesday of the committee and then April is dedicated to several activities for fair housing month. So there are not there are not meetings designated to focus on the work plan by the housing committee at um as of this time. So there's not a reason there couldn't be a special meeting called to do that. But um that does seem to be pushing back on what the schedule was that was developed by that committee. So, I'm a little bit concerned that we might not have feedback for when we meet as council in the um policy priorities and strategies session. I'll give the committee that feedback next week and maybe they'll decide to do a special meeting. So I think the to that the question is do you want so as the full council do you want to shift this schedule down a month which is feasible to say that committee instead of um committee work plan proposals being due by May 4th we move that to June 4th which would likely move the council uh working media retreat to late June early July with approval of late July.

No I was going to say the exact opposite. I I'd love to accelerate our meeting because it's really important and leaving it till June is like three months of policy discussion that we don't have. So I I I would not be in favor at all deferring it. I would be in favor of accelerating it. And Jesse, maybe you can clarify. Were was feedback given to the committee chairs that that was going to be the time frame for a work plan? So this has been the expectation for the last couple of years but not fully heard or messaged I think.

Um so the feedback that I've heard is that they would like more clarity earlier which is hence why I put it on for tonight. Um but this is really at your discretion the timeline of it. NRCC and Wreck and Parks Committee uh staff liaison have been pretty good about keeping that deadline in the in the in the headlight. Um so between between them and me, it's sort of been an ongoing we know that we

and that's because those committees have had things that they've wanted to be working on. So they're like, "How do we do this?" you have to have it ready in order to do this. So, it's it hasn't been hugely publicized, I guess. And and maybe just a further question. You that was something that sort of changed last year that you were meeting with committee chairs, correct? Or committee chairs were meeting together with you. So the I met once with committee chairs in early 2025 or end of 2024 when we were h when we were thinking about having a bigger conversation about reorganizing the structure altogether and decide not to go in that direction. So now I really rely on the council leaison and the staff liaison to be the direct conduit to the committees as a whole

because that that's another thing we have tried to do or identified is opportunities for committees to sort of cross interact and fertilize and whatever. Um and I do believe that has been going on more. Um I just didn't know if that was contin you know continued to be um encouraged by you through some formal process. So I have not recommended a formal process on that. Sorry something um I think that's a great I think if we want to think about doing that over the next year I I think that that might be useful to crosspollinate ideas more. I I remember when I was first on the committee, the committees used to meet with the council once a year, the committee chair and someone else. Yeah.

Which I think was a really useful process. Um because I I have this sense that um we're not maybe getting the the most out of the committees that we possibly can and part of that is um you know maybe on us on us to give the committees more direction to hear from them on a more direct you know basis and I'm wondering maybe whether um sometime before their work then is finalized we should try and set a process up where we do meet with each to the committee chair or maybe their design or two people. They share with us what what what they'd like for their work plan. We share with them with what we're thinking about. We have a dialogue and and gives them some more direction to to me that'd be a really useful thing to do.

Yeah. At the NRCC meeting last night, there's been a lot of focus on what is it we want to get permission from the council to do? and I explained that historically they work at the pleasure of the council and the council said this is what we would like you to do and so getting that back and forth but we we haven't we don't have process to facilitate that really we only the only process we have to facilitate that is the policy

priorities and strategy document which you know can provide direction but it's it's um you know it's a sense or two they're not there at the table there's not that back and forth. We don't we don't have a good process for that for for really getting the most out of our committees. I think I mean the leazison can do it but the leison can't really do it because leison can't speak on behalf of the whole council. So that doesn't really work either. Yeah. The well le the liaison should only speak.

No, that's what I'm saying. I'm just saying like we don't have a great process where the where the council in real time can sit down with the committee chairs and hash out look these are the these are the things that we we'd love you the committee to be working on hear from them what they want to work on and and really formulate a good plan that we're getting the most and highest and best use from all these experts and community members that volunteer their time for us. We we also haven't had a time where we as a council look at each committee and put forward what we think would be appropriate for a work plan for them each year. Yeah. Yeah. So

I I think a process like that would also help when we are filling committees to understand maybe where certain competencies or skill sets of volunteers might be a better fit based on a work plan that's been kind of collaborated on. So can can we agree to do something like that maybe late March, early April with the committee chairs? Is that is that asking too much of you guys or is that of them? Well, I I don't know. Or individually? Well, we can set up, you know, 20 minute slots. I I I don't know. That's how it used to work. You you were probably part of that, right? We We've had them come before us in the past, you know. We just have

years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I think there were like 20 minute slots set up. I I remember I was I did that I remember as an energy committee member with the chair. It would be to me it would be great if we had it set up so that on throughout the year each committee chair gives a presentation to council at some point and during that time we can look at what they're doing, what we're doing, what we'd like to see happen so that at a council meeting in public there's a yeah in preparation for the now if their work plan has just been approved it's it's more forward looking but throughout the year staggering it so it's not a

I'm just saying like now for this critical period before we meet to to hash out the citywide right to have those meetings I know it's maybe crunch and it'll be a lot of work but it just seems to me it's a really valuable thing to do so I I would be willing to spend the time to do it and that's yeah I think it' be useful

I think it's a good idea and I think having periodic meetings like that is very motivating. If you have a presentation, it's it motivates you to actually do something, you know, get something done and have a timeline. So, I I think it's a good idea. Yeah. So, I'm hearing three yeses for that. So, an option is we could invite all of the committee chairs to present to the council on April 6 and have that be the sole thing that you do at that agenda. Oh, Elizabeth, you're not here that night. Too bad. Thought I had a really good idea being there for a minute. That's a great idea. Um,

I'd like to hear from Tim and Elizabeth your thought about that this concept in general. Yeah, I think you articulated it well and I think it would be useful not only a combination of um what the committee would like to be working on and what they are working on but then the dialogue back because I think that's where there have been some misses around expectations sometimes um and it it's the opportunity to calibrate before we do the policy priorities and strategies and then that really does become a living document for the committees. So, you think it's a good idea and you T?

Well, getting getting committee representatives in front of the council and public is a good thing, right? Because it gives us a chance to discuss stuff with them. They get to hear that and they might have their two cents as well. So, just let's not make it five hours. No, absolutely. But I just wanted there were three nods and I just wanted to see if Yeah. I didn't want it to be 32 or know what it was. So, thank you. So, I I'm not sure how to implement this for you all.

Well, can we do a special meeting where Elizabeth can attend toward the end of March, beginning of April, where we get the committee chairs and maybe we give 20 minutes each? I I I know it's a lot of time. I know it's a lot of work, but I just feel like there's been this crack in the process that that really would be useful to address. And maybe on a going forward basis, we can do it more periodically. We get, you know, two every two months. It's not it's not a crunch, but like right now I just feel like we need to almost repair a process that that needs some attention. Yeah, I was going to say it's about two hour a little over two hours. Two, three hours. It's okay. Okay.

I think there's eight that and that doesn't include the charter committee. Yeah, there's Well, the charter committee is not doing anything right now. Yeah. Just the ones that should be doing something. Yeah. Yeah. That probably are doing something. Just the one we care about. Yeah. But they should be. So, I think you're talking about um

planning commission because they already have a what? So, if we're counting here, not charter, not public, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. bike ped economic development, energy, housing, NRCC, public art, recreation of parks.

I think you should include sex only because only because they are now with the approved budget going to have an administrator and they've been doing a lot that I don't think the council is is aware of and they they're aspirational. Are these going to be reporting? These are going to be strictly reporting meetings, not discussion meetings.

No, I mean, it's up to us, but I, as I've articulated, I I I want to be a back and forth. I want to hear from them, and I also want to provide guidance and and and have a discussion around that. Um, I think it's going to be very hard to get eight committee chairs here during the day. Anyway, during the day.

Um, so I think you're talking about some special council meetings. Um, so you could set two dates for special council meetings and I could pull the committee chairs to see when they would be avail, you know, to let them pick two op between two options. Could we make evening 5 to 7 5:30 to 7:30? four

to give you a chance to explore with the chairs to try and find out what might work and then come back to us at the next meeting with a proposal for us to make this work rather than trying to nail it down now. not to give you any more to do because you don't have I think it would be much more effective if you all gave me dates that you could do and then I would shop those around to Okay, committees. Are we talking evenings, days, both? Evenings. Evenings. Evening. Yeah. And I just want to remind the council I am away the 25th to the 5th of

March 25th to April 5th. And I'm going the 12th through the 19th. March is going to be really hard for me at this point. Yeah. Just to let you know. Well, between between Jesse and Tim, there's no So, almost no data available. So, 5th to the 12th. You're gone when? I'm back or 11th. The 11th. Okay. And when are you gone, Tim? When is Tim? When are you gone? I'm going 12th to 19th. Yep. So, we are into April 20th, the week of April 20th. But you can also do it with four counselors. Or we can do it with four counselors.

And I may be out some of the April meetings, too. So, so this is why this is why. Yes. Notice for sure. I think we might need to do it for it. It's very short notice for March and April. I think you're also going to be asking committee chairs to speak on something that they probably they may not have talked to your committee. They may not have talked to their committees about how about we think about May and it could even be the two main meetings that it's split up in because we meet in June correct for the for our uh planning meeting for retreat.

Okay. extra meetings. Do you add on meetings ever? No, never. Welcome to the council. Somebody told you that this was only two meetings a month. No better. So may So maybe the then the schedule is a little different. We've received a work plan. Thank you. Let's talk about it. Here's our feedback on it. And it also gives us time to look at their work plan and think about what we want to contribute. Okay.

Yeah. So, okay. So, can I say back where where I think you guys are? So, you want the work plans um from committees by the end of April and then you're going to take four and four at the two main meeting, two regular May meetings and have a conversation about what they've submitted. And and I would uh maybe amend that to say because we're doing this short notice for them a draft work plan. Yes, those are going to be long meetings, right?

You know, they can be they can be even, you know, if they don't have a lot done already, they can spitball what they think they want to do, but just so we've got something to work with. Note to myself that those are going to be late. Is that good to get some head nods for this approach? Not head. Okay. So I'm going to ask you as council liaison to help your staff leaison communicate your expectations to your committee chairs. I will thank you

communicate this request to both all three committees. So we're talking for by the end of so if if we are going with um actually let's think about this date for a minute. So the first meeting is April 4th. We would need those draft war plans no later than May 4th. Sorry, May 4th. We would need those draft war plans no later than April 28th. And the idea is not to Y is that correct? Yep. Jesse

and the the liaison um prior to that date is not expected to give them any kind of guidance on what they should work on. We just want them to tell us what they're doing and then during that meeting with that committee chair, we'll give them guidance. Right. So, so in other words, we're just supposed to announce to them, provide us with a work plan by what was the date again? It was April 28th, right? And not provide any input or guidance unless the council has decided already on things relevant to that committee, then you can communicate that but not communicate what you as a personal council to see. Yeah.

So yes, with some amendments one. So so how I have interpreted the pol your policy committees today is that they are charged with supporting you in implementing the city plan. So ideally the work plans are oriented towards their relevant sections of the city plan or the climate action plan. Um ideally they are aligned to a structure. Um we will try and get out like a structure that they can fill out so they look similar. Um uh and then there's one other thing. I think that's that's the guidance. I will also have the staff leaison try and send the same message. Um so it's not just coming from you all. I do I think want to know and and this may be some of yourations about you know my words not your words like the harm we need to repair here. Um what this process doesn't allow is any professional feedback from your staff about the committee work plans,

right? Um so that we may trip up against that at some point in this process. Though when we do it, would it be appropriate for the uh staff liaison to be at the presentation? Yep. I think that would be really helpful. That would close that that loop. Then they can say, "Wait a minute." Yeah. It's also not always the staff liaison who is primary responsible or has the professional expertise for the thing. Absolutely.

Um but I will do the my best to manage that on the staff side and and this is a first stab so it may look very different after we do this. We'll find out what doesn't work. Okay, good.

Okay, good. Um, item 14 which is discuss the conversation with a counselor program and determine the next steps. That is is that monthly now or every every three weeks every two weeks? Monthly okay monthly. Monthly is a good pace. Um I think it's pretty good right moving from school or library. It is $75 fee to the school for the school usage, right, for the janitors. And the library doesn't No. And I think a lot of people like

I think the library is a better facility. It's more comfortable. It's It's in city center. It's in city center. It's it's it's accessible. It's warm. It's warm. It is, but I think it's good to get out to the schools because it's different regions, different parts, neighborhoods. So, though my experience is for the conversations with the counselors, there's a very set crew that come to those meetings and then there are occasional others. Um, and often the people who are usually there come no matter where it is.

And the occasional others aren is from the area that it's being held at. So, I'm not sure how effective being at a at the Orchard School is at getting people from Orchard to come. Um, just anecdotally, I'm not not doing based on data. And Orchard really, I mean, the library is close enough to Chamberlain and it's kind of like in terms of a physical location, it's kind of accessible to all the schools except maybe Orchard is really the only That's kind of

so I I mean I would personally say the library and orchard and just leave it at that like three libraries, one orchard. Three libraries, one orchard. Just the library is just a more comfortable location. You're sending it to school. You got you know these little like it's just little benches like you know because it's not it's not really that it's not it's not set up for there's a lot of sentimental value going to or worship school. So, so yeah, that that's fine. I mean, personally, I'd say that's right. Yeah, but we we budgeted for like, you know, we didn't budget for too many libraries, so we're going to be have surplus. We're going to have to deal with that. Oh, no.

I mean, I personally think going to some of the schools is a good idea because it puts you in the neighborhood. We know um Chamberlain is a neighborhood that from a population standpoint sometimes feels less successful. I mean, and again, we can't force people there, but we're in their neighborhood. So, I I think it's somewhat symbolic. Um but yeah, um and you know, yeah, they're not comfortable, but that's what a big part of our population is living with every day. So, I'd keep them. So, you want to keep it the same or I I would I'd just rotate them through those areas.

Okay. Personally, let's just leave it the same. Is that okay? I personally use library. Would you personally just rather go to the library be scheduled for library times? Yeah, I I I agree with Steve. It's it's just a better facility. It's our facility in terms of the proximity to Chamberlain. It's it's it's right here. I think, you know, I mean, we're, you know, two minutes from Chamberlain School. It's it's kind of right here. And I think it it's um it's the right way to present. So, what are we doing now? Doing Chamberlain, Orchard, Library, Chamberlain, Orchard, Library. Is that what we're doing today? Um, we'd have to check that.

Why don't we go library, chamber, library, orchard, library, chamber, library? Just do half of the meetings in the library and half in the schools. or twoirds in the any whatever. Um, so it's um I don't feel strongly about

I agree with you Andrew that to me this is the most logical place but I also Elizabeth understand what you're saying about optics and how do we if we did it here all the time how do we make sure that the people in Chamberlain and Orchard etc there's outreach happening to make it They feel like they're being invited. Elizabeth, did you like Tim's compromise? I thought that was a clever I thought Tim suggested a clever compromise.

Oh, I I think that's fine. But I think what I'm really hearing is a couple counselors would prefer to be assigned to the city hall and I'm fine being assigned to the school. So, I don't care about that at all. It's fine. That's I don't care about that at all. But that's fine. So we'll half library and then half Yeah. So it' be like one one quarter orchard, one quarter chamberlain, one half library. Yeah. Okay.

So, uh, right now, uh, Elizabeth and Lori are scheduled for March 14th, and that's the last one we have on the books. So, we will also need signups for future Saturdays. So, either you can do that tonight, or I can have Andy around a proposed schedule and you can sign up. It was great having Andy do it. Yeah, just let Andy propose it and have him close our pictures too. He'll send out a doodle poll or something. Some kind of No, it's a little spreadsheet, right? Okay. Got it. He just sends out This is what I suggest. And if it doesn't work, just let him know. Got it.

And even once it's set, we still end up juggling. Yeah. You can swap when you need to. All good on that. Thank you.

All right. Item 15, review the significant agenda topics below for our next meeting on March 16th. So, uh, next meeting, um, big agenda items include a recommendation on next steps with the Bartlett Bay wastewater treatment plan, plant plan, um, next steps on the ebikes on shared use paths, a funding request and contract approval to move forward with the parks and open space master plan, those quarter 2 financials that I talked about, um, and a recommendation about the FY26 social service funding. um awards. Okay.

Then finally, item 16, other business. Is there any other business tonight?

I do have one item and it relates to the next agenda possibly. Um last time we talked with Erica about um the Hubard Park project, the bike path, which is moving forward. Um, I asked about lighting and I was like, "Oh, we can't eliminate the lighting because we've already been through the DRB, etc., etc." I had a conversation with um the zoning office and it appears that it would take no more than an administrative adjustment to um change the the approval for that project if the lights in the parking lot were eliminated. the lights. We don't have lights in any of our other parks. Parks are closed at dusk. Um getting electricity to the park, putting the lights in, etc. is an expensive process. Um it was said, well, maybe we just go ahead and do it and not use them. Certainly an option, but if we're going to spend big money on lights that we're not going to use, it seems that we might want to consider not having those lights in that And I was wondering if that's something we could put on this next agenda to discuss.

That's fine. So I don't put consent agenda items on this. What was what is on the consent agenda for the 16th is to award the contract for Hard Park. Okay. So if the majority of you want to revisit that plan, it will likely also mean revisiting that contract award that or that contract can be awarded as is and there can be a deduct. Anyway, I if we're spending tens of thousands of dollars to do something that we don't need and won't use. These are for overhead lights or ballards. Oh, these are for the lights around the parking lot. They're ballards or they're overheads.

They're overheads. So they're like uh the lights that are along this what you saw in the plan. I can't remember. Was it like a gas, you know, 14 foot gas style light? It wasn't a cobra head, was it? I don't remember what it was. I don't think it was a cobra head. And would they automatically come on at night? Yeah. Seems wasteful. So So you've approved a plan for H Park. You can revisit it. It will be duplicating staff work and duplicating a bidding process. Um, I can pull it from the consent agenda and have you revisit in its entirety. It will probably mean it could mean I don't know if it will probably mean it could mean you know part of why we were hurrying it up for March was to do the construct the project this summer.

Absolutely. Um, if we don't Can I ask a quick question? Well, it why and I mean this is a genuine question. Why is it not possible to just deduct that item? um from I haven't had any cont conversations with a contractor. This is a staff project. So, this is new. This is this would have been a great example of something had you given me a heads up on this, I could have done some homework on, but I don't know any of the implications. I I apologize for that. And it is what it is. Just answering the best question.

Yeah. H having well I won't speak for contractors but changes to contracts at least when I was in the business were not necessarily a big deal. It may not save as much money as it would have if it hadn't been part of the package but it's still kind of things happen.

Yeah. I I mean my my feeling on this is this this was a a plan that was kind of discussed in great detail prior to my time on council um because I sat in the audience and listened to it and there were a lot of um conversations specifically about the detail plan that would move forward. So it feels like it would be not just a work order change. It's going back to Can I just interject? This is kind of getting to substance. So I'm going to recuse myself from this conversation. So I don't I'm just going to sit back.

Yeah. Go ahead. This was t I don't want to delay this project in any significant way, but it seems like spending serious money of our city residents money on something that's not needed and might not be used is something that we should consider. So, and might also be disruptive if I might add. Was that and might also be disruptive. Um I know I I was not here you know as a counselor for the discussion about the lights the initial discussion but neither was I. Yeah that happened that happened two and a half years ago

right? So um thank you Andrew for uh bringing us back. So this is also not a warned agenda item tonight. So I don't think that's why I asked for the next agenda determine tonight what you want to do. I think if you I could put it on the next agenda but the implication of that is potentially pulling off the contract award. So, has it been bid yet? Yes. Yeah. Oh, it's been permanent. It's been bid. We're bringing Oh, there is a contractor that's the bid's been has been Okay. No, it hasn't been awarded because you have to award it.

So, Oh. Oh, but you have a potential award. That's what Okay. Okay. Can we take it off the consent agenda, put it on our regular agenda and have this conversation brought up with the contractor so that we know what the implication is if we decide to do this? Uh perhaps that's that's what I would propose so that we can do do we want the staff person to review why we designed it this way in the first place to get that explanation before we and to help us make a decision what we're going to do and if we have to make a decision to do that you're going to have recused yourself. Is that true? Okay. So there will be

to that to that regard. Um Tim, the discussion of lights, lights were added to the parking lot at one council meeting two and a half years ago. It happened almost as an add-on to a council meeting. So there was not a big staff recommendation to put those lights in according to the way it was done in the in the council meeting. I I I think if we're going to talk about history, let's have staff give you a history of this project. Yes, I would appreciate. Okay. I agree. listening. So, I'm So, I'm hearing two votes at least to pull it off the consent agenda,

bring you some history of the project, give you the option to sign uh the bid award, um or potentially an option to do something else

and or or what it would take to to make a change if we wanted to. And I want to go on record as disagreeing with at this late date with a project that had been approved, a council action that was taken over two and a half years ago. Um, and the fact that we have an agenda planner and knew this was coming up. Um, and it's on the work plan that was reported on recently that it this is just counterproductive. I understand that. Um, I would just like I think it's be would be useful to have staff explain to us the logic behind the use for those lights.

Yes. Thank you. I agree.

That's your other business. That was it. Okay. You're under accusing. Anybody else have any other other other business? Other than that, I have a motion to adjurnn. So moved. Second. We have a motion and a second. All those in favor say I. I. I. Someday Beth will have the pleasure of being here for liquor commission, which goes really fast. Got to keep up with it. Perfect.