Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Give me one second here. We'll get started in about 30 seconds.

I'll try.

Sorry, do I not get a chair?

All right, it is 630 it is May 19th.

This is the meeting of the Planning and Zoning Commission I would like to call us to order

All right. Mr. Haggerty is absent this evening. Ms. Austin? Here. Mr. Montiel?

Here.

Mr. Adams?

Here.

Ms. Hupka? Here. Mr. Renson?

Here.

Mr. Kaplan?

Here.

Ms. Cesario? Here. Mr. Ruttle is absent. And Chair Martinez?

Present.

Quorum is present.

Thank you. First item on the agenda is the approval of minutes from our May 4th meeting. I hope you had a chance to review. Even if you weren't here, it is expected that you review those minutes and are able to vote. Any discussion, revisions, corrections to the May 4th meeting minutes?

Hearing none, can I get a motion to approve?

So moved. Second. And with that, let's go ahead and vote.

Ms. Austin?

Yes.

Mr. Montillo?

Aye.

Mr. Adams?

Aye.

Ms. Hubka?

Yes.

Mr. Renson?

Yes.

Mr. Kaplan?

Aye.

Ms. Cesario? Yes. And Chair Martinez?

Aye.

Motion passes.

Thank you very much. Next item on the agenda is public forum. Now, I just want to be clear to everybody in the room. The public forum is for the public to address items that are not on the agenda. So if you were here to discuss or comment during the public hearing for case ZON 2025-003, there will be time for that. The public forum is an opportunity for the public to present things to this commission that are not on tonight's agenda. Is anybody here or signed up online for the public forum?

No one online.

Okay. Anybody here in the room? Okay.

Great. Then we will skip through the public forum, having nobody here for that, and move right on to the public hearing of case ZON 2025-003. Hi, Brooke.

Could I have a motion to open the public hearing, please?

Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, I need a motion to open the public hearing.

So go ahead.

All right.

Yes, motion to open the public hearing.

I'll second that.

Ms. Austin? Yes. Mr. Montiel?

Aye.

Mr. Adams?

Aye.

Ms. Hupka? Yes. Mr. Renson? Yes. Mr. Kaplan? Aye. Ms. Cesario? Yes. And Chair Martinez?

Aye.

Motion passed.

Thanks for keeping us on track. I will.

Brooke Bell, I'm a planner with the Community Development Department.

Good evening, Chair Martinez and members of the Planning and Zoning Commission. Tonight is the public hearing for Case ZON 2025-003. It is a planned unit development or plan development amendment for the Tierra Encantada proposed daycare at 3085 South Broadway. Actually it's 3080 South Broadway, I apologize. So I'll just go through my presentation and then you can follow up with any questions we have. I believe we have some staff here with our Public Works Department. and as well as the applicant will be making a presentation. So again, this is the Tierra Encantada PUD amendment that's at the former Walgreens at 3080 South Broadway. So the site is approximately 1.07 acres. It's at the northeast corner of Broadway and Dartmouth. Its current zoning is actually the Walgreens Planned Development, or PD. These PDs predated our current PUDs. And if they are amended, they still need to go through our current PUD process. If it wasn't a planned development back from 1993, it would actually be a use by right by today's current zoning in the MU B2 zone district. But back in 1993, Any projects over an acre were required to go through a plan development process. So that is why we are here this evening. The request is for an amendment to the existing plan development to allow for a change of use from what is currently retail. for a Walgreens to a change of use and construction of the daycare for Tierra and Cantata. And that will include two outdoor playgrounds, a larger one to the south in the parking lot and a smaller one to the north. So we'll just go through this here. You can see the vicinity map on the upper right with the approximate location. In terms of surrounding land uses, You can see number one is the actual site, former Walgreens. Number two is just kind of looking westbound on Dartmouth, kind of going down the hill towards Dartmouth and Broadway. Number three is Caddy Corner to the site, which is an existing 7-Eleven gas station and convenience store. And then number four is the Hamburger Stand, That is directly to the south of the site. Number five is across the street to the west, and that is a Chick-fil-A, which we did a PUD amendment recently on. And then to the north is, I believe, the Wright Motel. So that's number six. So that's the surrounding land uses. You can see the zone districts with the planned development of the Walgreen site being in purple, then across the street, Chick-fil-A being a PUD. And then as you get sort of behind the site, you've got R2B and MUR3B, which are higher density residential zones. more to the north and south, flanking Broadway. You've got MUB2. And then as you get farther away, you have R1C zone districts. OK, so in terms of this particular project for Tierra and Quintana, this started last summer we had a development review team meeting the site was vacant and so they presented some materials and then we we did have a neighbor the first neighborhood meeting in September of 2025 which is quite a long time ago and in fact our code requires that if if it's if there's longer than six months that occur between the first neighborhood meeting and and a Planning and Zoning Commission hearing tonight that there will be a second neighborhood meeting. And so we actually had that last night. And that is allowed by code, and you can actually advertise them together. So we had a neighborhood meeting last night at the senior center. We only had one attendee, but that's OK. And so we're here tonight to hear any comments as well. They formally applied on November 7th of 2025. And we went through several iterations of reviews by staff and a little bit of redesign here and there. And so here we are tonight for the public hearing. We tentatively have scheduled, depending on what happens tonight, a city council public hearing for June 15th. So that's kind of what we're looking ahead to. In terms of project overview, I mentioned there's a change of use and construction of a daycare center for Tierra and Quintana. It's a daycare center that caters to six months to six years old. And they're open, I believe, from 6.30 to 6 p.m. And I'll let a representative from Tierra Encantada or the consultant give a little bit more information on that. I mentioned that the proposed modifications do require that the PUD from 1993 or PD be amended by the same process that PUDs must follow. And that's mainly because of the change of use to a daycare as well as you know, the playground's a significant addition to the site plan. So I also mentioned the new daycare proposes modifications to the southern parking lot to accommodate for a larger or a relatively large playground. You can see that here in the site plan. That's a new playground. And then there's another, and that's for the older kids. And then to the north, there's a smaller playground for the younger kids. This is obviously 1993. It's a relatively old site. It was fully landscaped, but There's going to be some landscaping removed. There's some landscaping that's gone through some attrition in more than 30 years. And so the and their consultant hired a landscape architect, a local landscape architect, to do a complete assessment and came up with a new plan so the landscape will be supplemented with more trees, refresh, new shrubs, perennials, et cetera. this all meets or exceeds actually unified development code standards so in terms of looking at this and the Commission evaluating it we need to look at a couple things the first is compatibility with the comprehensive plan Community development has determined that this planned unit development amendment is consistent with the following comprehensive plan objectives. Number one, with the goal being to support local and regional businesses to build and maintain a diverse, compatible base of companies, and objective 1-1 to develop programs and projects to actively retain existing commercial and industrial businesses. Community Development's comment on that is, the proposed PUD amendment would backfill a currently vacant commercial space that will serve residents, provide job opportunities, and create community within this space. Number two, goal work number two, is to build, attract, and retain a quality workforce support local and regional businesses, and build and maintain a diverse and compatible base of companies. With that objective, it says to work to attract adult education programs to prepare a future workforce and encourage job creation. The Tierra and Cantata Daycare will empower their workforce to be successful through helping children learn an additional language while gaining confidence in their professional careers. So I don't think I really mentioned that, and the applicant will speak to this, but this is a Spanish immersion daycare.

So if I sent my kids there, they'd be, I guess, listening to Spanish all day. But I'll let them expand on that.

In terms of the PUD review criteria that you are tasked with, The Inglewood Municipal Code states that PUD plans shall be reviewed based on the criteria below. Number one, the plan provides benefits just beyond just the property and are not strictly to facilitate a project. The Tierra Encantada Daycare provides a unique addition to the education and childcare landscape in Inglewood. Number two, the deviations from the standards result in a development that is equally or better in meeting the purposes, intent, and design objectives of the code. Community Development's comment on that is the proposed amendment meets or exceeds the standard of development outlined in the original 1993 plan development. And the amendment will provide additional landscaping beyond what is currently on the site under the existing plan development. And lastly, The flexibility proposed in the plan is based on one or more of the following criteria. Improved amenities for residents, businesses, or patrons within the project or vicinity of the project. And the response from community development is Tierra Encantada provides a different option for families in Englewood who want to expand their child's opportunities. So with that, community development recommends approval of the proposed Walgreens PD amendment. And a formal building permit application will be required prior to any construction activity. I don't think you need to add that as a condition. That goes without saying. But I just wanted to mention that. So with that, I would open it up for any questions for me. If I can't answer them, we'll direct them to other city staff or the applicant.

So, any questions? Brooke, why are we putting all of this process in front of an applicant who is trying to use the space for a use by right. So I understand that it was under a planned development. But if this new use would be a use by right for THE ZONE DISTRICT, WHY DOES IT NOT JUST REVERT BACK TO THE BASE ZONING? WHY DO WE HAVE TO GO THROUGH ALL OF THIS AND WHY DO THEY HAVE TO GO THROUGH ALL OF THIS FOR SOMETHING TO BE USED BY WRIGHT?

NEW SPEAKER I'VE BEEN ASKED THAT CERTAINLY BY THE APPLICANT. AS WELL AS ON THE WASTE MANAGEMENT PD AMENDMENT. So basically, that's the way the code is written. We could alternatively vacate the old PD, which would actually have to go through this same process. But then they would not have that overlaid on the site moving forward. So there's an advantage to that. And so it's kind of a judgment call. The disadvantage of that is that You could get a car a car wash go in there Or a car dealership go in there and I'm not sure that at this point in time and I can't speak for the Commission or Council that That they would want that or want to relinquish that sort of oversight on the project so You know, that's my best answer at that, that we would still be going through this process to vacate a PD.

Was the choice to vacate or amend the city's choice or the applicant's choice? It's the applicant's choice.

Okay.

So they were aware that they could apply to just vacate this. That they could do that, yes. And they decided not to.

We had discussions and let them know kind of the lay of the land, but yes, that was their choice.

Okay.

Brooke, just one quick question. I know that there was only one person that showed up at the neighborhood meeting last night, but what kind of comments did they have?

It was actually an employee of the Malley Senior Center who was kind of helping us out with some technology, and we said, you're here? Do you have any comments? You've been in the community a long time.

Okay. Well, I probably know.

And so the comments were, yes, it seems like a good use.

Okay. Thanks.

Brooke, let's look. 20, 30 years down the road, if the Tierra Encantada daycare is no longer there, is this going to be the same process, either vacate the PD or go through this process and not revert back to use by right?

It would be, unless they vacated the PD. And there is a list of... There is a list of uses in the packet that is part of their PUD. So there could be some variations of uses. Back in 1993, unfortunately, it was very specific. It wasn't a range of uses. It was very specific. It was basically a retail pharmacy at that time. So that's been expanded on a little bit. but yes they would have to go through this again it's not to say that if they wanted to while they're operating two years from now vacate the PD they could potentially do that but it would have to come through this commission as well as City Council

And the changes to the PD and update to a PD, the request is just for the allowable use. Are there any other things that would change?

Well, so any planned unit development, let's take, for instance, the Chick-fil-A, they had to do an amendment because they were making a significant change to their drive-through. So the fact that... that the the playground uh which is you know uh a nice large playground was added to the south of the site even that alone if this was a pud today would require an amendment any significant changes to use or site plan require an amendment I don't know if we have parking counts for this type of use but is was there any variance for parking spaces so obviously we're losing so we don't have a specific parking ratio for daycares but we use the ITE Manual that is kind of the engineers Bible for looking at that kind of thing. It's very detailed on parking and based on that with the we looked at sort of worst case scenario with Attendance and so it based on children at children's attendance I believe it required 45 spaces and they're providing a 43 So there's a very slight variance. I don't know what that would be percentage wise I would say

less than five percent yeah just one other quick question which is a little bit unrelated uh when is the construction starting on the chick-fil-a for the covered canopy that's what we approve you know i'm on chick-fil-a oh i don't know okay they've applied for a permit i do know that okay sometimes the wheels of progress are slow with

Large companies.

Understood. Thanks.

I understand the repurposing of the old Walgreens drive-thru is a separate play area for the younger participants. And it was looking like some parking along the alley where the drive-thru was supposed to go. I just want to be sure that there's not any planned use for the alley other than accessing those parking spaces. Walgreens was using the alley as their drive-thru, essentially.

um so uh traffic our traffic uh division did extensive review of this and multiple reviews uh it's my understanding that uh the alley um sort of drive cut has actually been narrowed um to go back to a regular alley as opposed to what was a kind of a combo drive-through for walgreens um and then

Let me see if I can get to the... Yeah, I think they put a dumpster corral in what was designed to be their drive-thru, and so I think people were just using that.

Correct. And there are... There's actually a couple of parallel parking spots where I'm showing with my pointer that will be for employees only. Yeah. But the dumpster, and again, if the applicant wants to speak to this, the dumpster pickup should still work.

Speaking of traffic, I assume there will be morning and afternoon sort of drive-through, drop-off, pickup. That is not typical for what the Walgreens parking was designed for. Can you just talk a little bit about input from the traffic department on that?

Public works. Sure. So again, this was reviewed pretty extensively. To my knowledge, the drop-off and pick-up, parents will park and walk their kids to the entry. But what I also understand is that even though their hours are 6.30 in the morning until 6 at night, that supposedly, and there's some additional traffic analysis in your packet on some of their other projects, it's more spread out than you would think. in terms of that. There are 178 students projected, and I don't know how many years that'll take to build up to that, but And that does, at least in terms of parking spaces, as I mentioned, it's within two parking spaces of what the ITE manual recommends. But no drop-off lane, like at a school that's- Not to my knowledge, and certainly the applicant can probably speak to that more. But to my knowledge, there's not a drop-off lane.

Other questions for Brooke?

I just was going to add to that. I would like them to speak to, when they do come up, to speak to how kids do get dropped off and picked up. Is it the kid parents show the ID when they come in? If I could know a few of those details, that would be important to me.

Any other questions for Brooke while he's up there?

All right.

Well, then we'd love to hear from the applicant if there's anything you'd like to share with us or just ready for questions.

I believe the applicant has a PowerPoint presentation that will follow and then we can open it up to any questions. And if you need to ask me anything else, I can come up later or any other city staff.

Great. Thanks, Brett. Thank you.

So to save a little bit of time, if all of you that are associated with this project for the applicant, if you want to raise and we'll just square you all in at the same time, that would be great. so do you swear arm under the penalties of perjury that you would tell the truth in this proceeding before the planning and zoning commission. I do okay when you come up if you do not please just state your name and your address thank you.

Sir my full name is gerard just ariel with the firm jarmel kaisel architects and engineers. I'm the director of civil engineering for the firm our firm. or the architect and engineer of record for this project. You may have noticed we are located on the East Coast in New Jersey, but our firm has done over 500 childcare designs throughout the country. And actually at the end of this year, we're going to go over 600 designs for childcare throughout the United States. Thank Mr. Bell for his presentation. It was thorough. overview and summary. I'll try and be brief. I do have some clarifications and things I want to expand upon and reinforce some key points on why we think this application is a great use and a benefit to the community. I won't repeat. Brooke went through the diversity of uses. What's on the screen is the existing site highlighted in yellow. He's explained the zoning and the surrounding uses, so I'll move on to the existing sites. I think there's, just before I do that, the neighborhood meeting, just to clarify, technically, out of the over 500 mailings we sent out, no one did show up. Could have been the rain. A local person tells me folks around here were more apt to go out in the snow than the rain. So it could have been the rain. The one person that did speak was an employee. our IT support. I'll name her because I'm very thankful to her. It's Shelly Fritz. She helped us organize the neighborhood meetings and was our IT support last night. So regarding our application, there's several benefits, six that I'd like to bring up in particular. One, Brooke talked about the existing building. being vacant for several years. This is what we call an adaptive reuse of an existing development site. It's been vacant for several years. It has experienced some vandalism. There's been some graffiti. There's actually been some vandalism inside the building. And as what typically happens with vacant buildings, owners are less apt to maintain the grounds, the landscaping as the years go on and it's vacant. So this property has seen some neglect since the time that it's been vacant. So reusing an existing developed site. There's no demo of this building. There's no expansion to the building. The building will be remodeled in its same size. So there's no extra demand on public infrastructure and developments of this case. The site is a corner lot. to the site's a corner lot and it gets gets a new look it gets revitalized as a corner lot I consider it to be a visible parcel in the city with people driving by so this building gets a facelift this is a rendering from Broad Street and that's rendering from That's also Broad Street looking the other way. So the building gets a facelift, gets a new clean look. As Brooke mentioned, the landscape, we engaged the local landscape architect. She took a look at the site, really as if it was a ground up and redesigned and added to the landscaping. And as Mr. Bell mentioned, what was proposed actually exceeds what the current code requires. Another benefit to this site, and I'm going to go to this slide, which on the left is the existing conditions. On the right is the proposed conditions. Stormwater management is another benefit that this development will bring to the site. Several reasons. Currently, there is no stormwater management on site. Runoff drains directly to the public system with no mitigation on water quality. volume of runoff or peak flows for the runoff. This site will do two things. One, we're actually increasing green space with the two play areas, but even with there's some additional pavement on this upper right corner that was used to get to the drive-through and some more on the left. So between the play areas, those two corners and a little bit on the bottom right, those are all at, areas that are currently paid will be converted to green space. So that and we're also incorporating an underground stormwater system on this site. This system is designed in compliance with the the Englewood code but it also meets the mile-high flood district regulations. We also engage the local civil engineer who familiar with the the mile-high flood district regulations to prepare those reports in that design so that'll be fully complying with them and that's a benefit to the city's downstream system it's going to address water quality volume reduction and peak flow reductions so all benefits to the city stormwater system downstream of our site to traffic related circulation ones or the public alley that was discussed it's it is getting our currently there's real is not a real delineation between the public alley and what was the the Walgreens parking lot circulation aisle. So we're doing is I reconfigure in the parking lot we've moved these islands on the east to the right to the property line and we're reconstruction the driveway off dark mode. So now there's a clear delineation between that public alley and what's the private parking lot. The parallel spaces we spoke about are over here to the right of the play area. Those could be accessed either from our parking lot or through the alley. So you don't have to use the alley to get to those spaces. They can be accessed either way. And the intent is for those to be employee, probably the admin staff that are there all day. The second one related to traffic, and I'll go to this exhibit. Again, we engaged the local traffic expert. He's actually here tonight in case we get technical questions that are beyond my expertise. I'll just get a broad overview of what's being proposed in his report. And his analysis, we'll start by saying there is an existing issue on site with queuing of cars going westbound on Dartmouth towards South Broadway. In his report, he suggested some off-site improvements to East Dartmouth, which were reviewed and some back and forth with the city's reviewers, and came up with the bottom screen, which is what's being proposed. It's a restriping of East Dartmouth where we're going to provide it.

Oops, what'd I do? Did I hit the wrong button? Go back. What does that say? Ah, there we go. Okay.

So what's proposed is a restriping of East Dartmouth. Got it?

where we are going to stripe a dedicated left turn lane on the westbound approach to South Dartmouth, going eastbound.

Why does it keep doing that? I'm hitting the forward button. All right.

So on the south side here, there are four on-street parking spaces that will get eliminated. But what I think is a benefit, the bike lane that gets out there gets rerouted to stay along the curb. Right now, it kind of bends out into the pavement to go around those four parking spaces. I think maintaining the bike lane along the curb is a safer alternative there. That improvement will help, we think helps with the, again, existing problem that's on. This problem is there today with a vacant Walgreens building. So the applicant is agreeable to make these off-site improvements to help with that condition. Last one I'll bring up is the use itself, being a daycare. I think it's widely agreed that the need for quality daycares and preschools in this country There is a need for quality preschool and daycare in this country. Tierra Encantada offers that. I don't know about many, but some municipal land use law books, I can say New Jersey is one, where they state that daycare use is a, quote, inherently beneficial use to a community. We believe this use is a benefit to the community and will provide a much needed service to the residents and the community. I'll touch on parking because it was raised. A couple of things to clarify. As Mr. Bell stated, yes, the ITE, the worst case scenario, they offer three ways to calculate the parking. The worst case is based on students, and that came out to 45. There's also an option. for square footage, which I believe came out to 30 spaces required. If you use the option for a number of employees, it's 33 spaces required. So if you average them, it's 36. Yes, worst case is 45, and we have 43. The other thing to mention is the capacity by the code or the child services code is 178. In reality, they don't get to that number, not because they can't, but because they have to leave space for kids to move up. As they outgrow a certain class, they have to have space in other classes for those kids to move up. So in reality, it's never going to reach that 178 capacity. The second things they may consider anecdotal, but they're true. In our experience with daycares, there is a certain percentage of students that are absent every day. Our numbers show it to be between 5% and 10%. And there's also a certain amount of students that are siblings. They come in one car. There's a 5% to 10% there. So when it relates to parking, if you take the number of students and make that a real number, it's actually less than 45. You asked about the operations and how it works. Yes, parents must. park their car, and walk their child in to the building. I can let the user, the applicant, talk more about the security in place, but it is a very secure cameras ID. So yes, they do have to park and walk their child in. And again, this is not like an elementary school. You don't have a start time at 8 o'clock and 100 cars coming to drop their children off. Drop-offs occur mostly between three-hour periods, 6.30 to 9.30 in the morning. There is a peak hour in there, but it's over three hours. And in the afternoon, they can start as early as 1 o'clock if kids are there for a half a day, and that goes on until the building closes. So there is no mad rush of cars picking up or dropping off. Lastly, as far as the spaces, there's been studies done. Tierra's done their own studies. We've done studies. The time for a parent to drop a kid off in the morning is a little less than five minutes, and the pickup's a little less than seven minutes. The theory is parents are more likely to talk after work than on their way to work. That allows a parking spot to turn over, you know, anywhere from eight to ten spaces an hour. So even if you had like 10 dedicated drop-off spaces, you're really getting 80 cars that can come in and out of that space in an hour or so. Tierra has many sites. I'm not sure if they have a site with more parking than 43, but many sites with less than 43 that operate fine. And in our experience with other daycares of this size, 36 to 40 is the number that works and is more than enough for these to work. With that, Mr. Daniel Sheehy from TIERRA is here. He's their director of design and construction. And if you'd like, he can tell you all about TIERRA and their model, their goals, their curriculum. And that's it.

Great, thank you.

Put that here.

Good evening. My name is Daniel Sheehy. My title is the Director of Design and Construction for Tierra Encantada, 2700 30th Avenue South, Minneapolis, Minnesota. So a little bit of background for Tierra. We opened in 2013. Kristen Denzer, our CEO, She had a couple of children and needed some good childcare. So she opened up the first tier in 2013. And then almost annually opened a new center in the Minnesota market. And then in 2019 is when we started franchising. So we are a franchisor. We currently have 16 open operating centers. And then by the end of this year, we'll have 26 with another 28 that we're currently in development different stages so I've been pretty busy and we do appreciate your time it's taken us a while to get to this place here so we're very excited about coming to Inglewood and coming to this location and appreciate the time and also from the planning and zoning department so if I can answer any other questions they like the security question we use a system called Brevo it's an application so it's door access controls Our security camera and door access controls, fire alarm to intrusion alarm systems are very robust. And so Brevo is the access control. So every parent has the app on their phone. They also can have a backup key fob just in case. But any type of, I don't want to say handoff, but, you know, when the child is being dropped off or picked up, that personal interaction has to take place. The bereavement has to open up the door controls and then it's automated in our system so then we have a log as well as to who is coming and going. As far as security cameras, all entrances, exits, it's on the parking lot, the playgrounds, you know, throughout the interior of the building. So we take that seriously. I think that this location might be 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. time frame. And that just, you know, it depends, too, as far as, you know, how we open, say, like, If it says the occupancy is 178, that's just what we're allowed. We're not going to reach 178 occupants on this site. And then some of the pick-up, drop-off, it is true 5% to 10% say maybe are no-shows. We also have part-time. So not everybody is a full-time. So we take it to the worst level. Kate network honestly worse but you know to the utmost you know for the data so that we look at if every single child was full-time you know five days a week what does that look like you know our sites and in the twin cities I would say Egan probably has the most parking that was required that was a new ground up two stories 168 occupancy, and I think that we have 32 parking spaces. Say in the inner city, Hiawatha, 23,000 square foot building, three floors with a lower level, we have six spots. And so there's a variation depending on where we're at. and we've had to get good at figuring out as far as like pickups and drop-offs. But what does help is that the model isn't always a full-time model. And so we have some part-time children, full-time children, some drop out, some stay in. So that mixture, I mean, we're typically about 15% below what our maximum occupancy levels are. And it does take us a bit to ramp up as well. So as far as like staffing, to the occupancy with children. And so we feel very confident, I mean, between everything that we've tried to accommodate with the parking studies, traffic studies, you know, landscape plans, you know, to do everything, you know, to show our good partnership and, you know, with Englewood and the community as well.

All right. Do we have questions for the applicant or the applicant's consultant?

No.

Yeah, so to continue on the parking question. Sure. So it sounds like you guys are experienced with operating with significantly less parking than this in a lot of the centers. Was there consideration to using more of the space for something other than parking? Why this number of spaces for this location?

Well, I mean, we derived at that just based on what we thought that the requirements were. And so we were trying to achieve requirements, you know, to just aid us along in the process. It's been a pretty extensively... long process for us and so you know to continue to push back and for us as well i would have to look at what that use would be you know for us the playgrounds we keep them i'm trying to think of the ratios here one we have licensing so like for a child to square footage um and our typical uh overall with the two age groups is three thousand square foot to begin with and they're they're not um they're not uh The parking is less costly than the playground, you know, like we have a port in place surfacing. It's a very nice, the equipment's very nice, so it's extremely expensive. So I think that, yeah, I don't think that we would increase the playgrounds by any means or like create any other features outside of our program that we have. So we were just, you know, working with the city to accommodate parking requirements.

Because, Brooke, I heard you say that there were no specific parking requirements for this use, that there were guidelines that you were looking at. But he's saying that the city was saying they needed to meet a certain requirement. Can we clarify how that discussion went?

Perhaps my language is off from requirements.

So barring having something in our Unified Development Code or Englewood Municipal Code, we're going to try to encourage an applicant to get as close as they can to the next best source we have of identifying parking needs. And so that was the ITE manual, which specified in there three ways of calculating parking taking the worst case scenario was 45 spaces. They got to 43. So we, anytime we review a plan development amendment or a plan unit development amendment, We're trying to find that balance and that fine line with the city, what, quite frankly, the Planning Commission and City Council may ask about and neighborhoods may request, and what is out there from a professional capacity, like the ITE manual, and what the applicant's needs are. And I think we found that balance, and I think that's what they were trying to achieve as well.

You're saying you're striking a balance, but you're also saying you're planning for the worst case, which means that most of the time, you're planning for significant amounts of empty parking except maybe at the maximum peak usage so like is the ite manual the same manual that says you need like five spaces per lane for a bowling alley because those are the kind of rules that lead to what downtown englewood looks like with Bunch of empty parking.

Yeah, that's what I'm worried about. I can't speak to the bowling alley Example, this is a very busy intersection and in terms of a pickup drop-off scenario As you can see they're proposing some Lane restriping on Dartmouth in terms of this intersection If there wasn't enough parking there is concern that and I don't think that's a concern at this point, but that it would back out, or people would line up, as you can see in some school situations with pick-up and drop-offs, onto Broadway or Dartmouth. And so that was a concern that everyone wanted to address.

And to be clear, Mr. Sheehy, Taking those parking requirements or suggested targets aside, you feel like it isn't impeding your ability to fully utilize this site for your purposes?

The quantity of parking spaces right now?

I'm just saying, yeah, shooting for, whatever, 48. That didn't reduce your ability to fully activate this space. You were saying a playground's expensive. You wouldn't have made it bigger would you had a lower parking requirement.

Yeah, I don't want to stress Jerry out as far as a redesign. But we may have looked at the playground to see if, because the way where we have the younger age group in the back there, which is totally fine. We're good. That's the only consideration that I was thinking of. Because this is going back over a year. For us, maybe 16 months. I'm trying to jog my memory of those iterations of how the playground looked, and that would be the only consideration I would think. It's not prohibiting us from our optimal operation by any means. It would just be potentially an adjustment to maybe the playground, but that's not a certainty, so to speak.

I think where Noah's coming from, we would much rather prefer more spaces for more kids to get great education than places to park.

Okay.

Appreciate that. Thank you. Fair enough.

yeah yeah i mean i think i'm also it's just part of this process related concern this is not for you this is you know more for city staff which is that the only reason there was this opportunity to talk about the you know recommended number of parking spaces is because they're going through this pd amendment which they're doing because of the prior use, even though the current use or the proposed use would be permitted from the underlying zoning without the PD. So again, it feels like the city really putting a lot of unnecessary process and unnecessary review in front of an applicant who should have been able to pursue this by right as the owner of the property and design it the way that they wanted provided that it met the other requirements. And the only reason that this process is going on is because the prior use had a PD from 1993. So I'm just bothered by this whole thing. I would have much preferred TRN Cantata to be able to move faster, get the design in place that they wanted, get the amount of parking spaces that they know from their experience in this particular industry is the right number for their needs, and not have the city kind of getting in the way of that. So it's a process concern here, not at all a substance of what you guys are doing. So that's where I'm coming from.

Quick question, Brooke. We're replacing the text in the, and I think you answered this earlier, I just want to be clear. We're not allowing dependent care use and commercial retail. We're replacing commercial retail with dependent care use.

Is that correct? Yes. Okay.

Thank you. Michelle. Brooke, I had a quick question before you leave.

I did notice in the plans there's this extensive water processing runoff plate going on in the parking lot and I think that somebody mentioned that was there were new flood water considerations that that's what triggered that can you tell me more about that.

The only part I would add to that and then I would defer to either the applicant or our city staff, is that I believe our public works staff or our public works code talks about if you do a PUD or PUD amendment that you need to upgrade to current drainage standards, which include in some cases detention, water quality, those kinds of things.

Is some of that relatively new? Because I just can't remember another applicant coming would have to do that extensive of groundwater work.

So for instance, the waste management PD amendment, they had to do things. I think Chick-fil-A was over-designed, so they met it. So those are anecdotal examples. But new development generally, even change of uses, new development generally has to comply with new codes. Depending on, it's kind of like if you do an addition to your house, it kind of depends on what you do.

Right.

But you have to comply with new codes.

So it's not any way related to some of the past history that we've had with problems with flooding in residences and things like that? Is it all related or not?

No. If you're referring to, I believe it's Dry Creek. Right. No.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

I don't believe that's in that zone or this is in that zone.

Okay. Yeah. Great. Thanks.

It is at the bottom of a hill.

Yeah, it is. No, it is. It's just I hadn't seen something that extensive. I'm like, man, that's got to be expensive to put that in. So I was wondering why they had to do it. That's all. I do have a couple other questions, too, if I might, not with Brooke, but with the applicants.

Okay.

Yeah, go ahead, Michelle. Okay. First of all, I think this is a great idea, and I really appreciate your presentation. Thank you. In the plans, the surface, what is the surface in the playground area? Because it just had this series of dots, and there was nothing in the legend that had that particular...

In the outdoor play area, it's a... No, it's not a mulch. It's a port-in-place surfacing. And so we have a brand standard, like, proprietary color mix. And it is a permeable surface. So it's like a rubber... squishy rubber surfacing just like lack of better terms and it does allow drainage actually so and then we put a six inch sub base of stone and then it's like two and a half inches of base and then the top layer of the port in place for the surfacing yeah i couldn't find in the plans but i'm sure it's called out in your in our brand construction brand yes it is i just couldn't find it here um and about what um child to adult or caregiver ratio do you run usually So I think that for this site we have, it's 178 with the children, and I think it's 26. But as far as we adhere to, and we actually typically do better than what the standards are for licensing. So say if it's infants, we'll have like one to 10, I believe it is, or one to six. I think if the ratio is one to 10, we do one to six or one to eight. And so I'd have to go through the licensing. Sure, and every state's a little different too. Yeah, yeah. So we definitely adhere to it, and we typically do better. Because that's our brand standard for care, so we don't want to be understaffed in a room, you know, with providing care for the children. So we typically, I don't want to speak, you know, I don't want to say double, but, you know, we typically do better than what the licensing parameters are, just based on our own programming and experience.

Overscheduled rather than underscheduled. Exactly, yeah.

And then we'll cut, you know, if needed. I'm trying to put my operations hat on, but I'm not the operations person.

Sorry, I'm kind of an operations person, so that's why I'm asking these questions.

No, it's okay.

And then are you going to be having any sort of food preparation service going on in there?

Yeah, so we have a full kitchen. So it comes with a hood. It's typically four burners, a flat grill, and then a stove. Refrigeration stuff. Yeah, and then we'll have refrigeration, all stand-up coolers, stand-up freezer, you know, reach-ins. There's no walk-ins or anything like that. Things are delivered very often. And so we pride ourselves in our organic meal program. So that's one of the aspects of our program that sets us apart is our organic meal program. And we have a dedicated cook or kitchen staff as well. They don't cross over. Maybe some of the teachers might go pick something up, but as far as whoever's prepping the meals, they're trained and go through all of any safety, health, things like that, so programming.

Okay, well, you've got an expensive buildup then with all this.

Yeah, I keep hearing that from our team, but it's, yeah, yeah. So we like to, I mean, we offer a premium service, you know, for child care, and the meal program is super important for us as well.

Okay. And this is, of course, this has, some of these questions have nothing to do with our planning and zoning role here, so I apologize if I'm asking strange questions. But how do you market this? Do you market this to the Spanish-speaking market or the English-speaking market, or how do you separate yourself from Medicare and those kinds of things?

Yeah, it's both. I mean, as far as from, you know, staff perspective and opportunities there, you know, we require that somebody is fluent in Spanish to Because it's not just hearing or listening to it. I mean, they're literally speaking Spanish all day long. It's an immersion program. And then as far as marketing outreach, that's a great question for our marketing team as well. I don't have all of the details on that. But I mean, I'm on the real estate committee, so I see our demographics and things of that nature, but more so for the children or the families that we're kind of target marketing for.

Okay. Thank you very much. I'm a mom, so I've had to Shopper child care before so yes, I would have been interested in my experience so thanks so much.

Other questions for the applicant.

I have a couple, I think more on the security side. And so I live in the neighborhood and I did not get a notice that I can remember. I definitely would have been there to any of, so just an FYI, I live two blocks away. And so I don't know where that, anyway, cutoff would have been for notice. I don't remember seeing it. So I'm sorry, because I would have supported you. and come to ask more questions. But as I was looking through, I can't, and as we're sitting here, I don't remember. Once that parking lot is closed, is there a gate on the parking lot? Can you tell me more about how, or is there a gate around, is it just the gate on the, oh my God, I'm sorry, I hate when my, yeah, tell me how the security on the property is,

how is the security on the property for cars to get in and out yeah we typically don't have any gate controlled access okay on any of our sites i think our first site is in georgia that's under construction right now and that's a franchise franchisee a partner of ours He owns a bunch of Planet Fitnesses, and he really likes gates and arms open and closed for his parking lots. He's the first one out of the 16 operating and the 26 that'll be open that'll have actually gated access. In his case, it actually makes sense in Georgia where he's at without going into the site specifics. But typically, we don't have any type of gate controls or access controls to the parking lot. or anything that shuts it down in the evening. We do have, say in the playgrounds, we'll have either, and I can't recall on this site if it's, our brand standard is a four-foot fence around the play area that leads back to the building that also has access controls to it, or it might be a six-foot. I'm not sure in this particular instance with what code requires. So we do have gated and fenced-in controls for the playgrounds and anywhere where the child would be going outside. once they're in the building. But once they exit into the playground, they get picked up and we don't have any control systems as far as gates.

OK. Again, I live two blocks away. So I guess my concern in living in that neighborhood for six years is keeping it clean so that when parents are coming and going, like just tonight when I came here, tonight along Broadway, it was just full of Chick-fil-A trash. And so just as a mom dropping off my kids, I would just want to make sure that it felt safe and clean when I dropped my kids off. And so I just, that's my two cents as a mom.

Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And we do clean, we have a facility.

I'm sure you guys do, but I'm just saying that after hours, I guess I'm worried about that for you guys, not for anything else more than anything. I just, I don't know what, what to say other than um it will be something that you guys will have to be aware of and i do believe like once you activate an area it won't stay looking like it does right now obviously um but having that playground right there off of broadway just it would just be a cons i guess safety concern so thank you other questions from the commission to the applicants

I had one more, if I could. Can you confirm, do you agree with the way that the process was characterized as far as that you were given the opportunity to decide on amending the PUD or removing the PUD? Whoever that question would be better directed to. I see Jerry's coming.

I mean, I actually feel I appreciate some of your comments regarding process just as an applicant you know and somebody coming in you know to the community to and we really do work to put our best foot forward and to work with you know whatever we need to work with and it has been in a very extensive process that we felt that we've been kind of really reacting towards and, you know, spending on traffic studies, parking studies, landscapes. I mean, we spent good redesigning the stormwater systems, you know, for the retention systems, which are also very expensive. So I don't have, you know, I'm overseeing a lot of different sites. And so some of the specifics regarding if we have the opportunity to forego something or whatnot, I'm going to let Jerry speak to that on that.

Yes. I appreciate your questions because a lot of your questions were the same questions we had along the way to Mr. Bell and the staff. Yes, in discussing the options that was brought to our attention, we could either go for the vacate the old PUD or continue through this process. We revised it. Vacating the PUD in terms of length of time would be roughly the same. Because if it was quicker, we would have went that route. The concern was there was a risk involved by vacating the PUD that opens up the site to more uses, and this board loses some control of what could go there. So there's a risk that this board doesn't like that, and it gets denied, and then we're starting all over. That's why we went this route.

That makes sense. Well, it doesn't make sense, but it makes sense as an explanation.

I've got one quick question. Yeah, David. All right, I know you guys are going over the limit on, or the required limits on landscape. I'm just curious, on that southwest corner, there's a huge square of cobble mulch, basically rocks with one tree. Everything else I'm super psyched to see. I drive by here all the time. Is there any reason that we can't get a little bit more landscaping at kind of sidewalk level? I just worry that that corner of the lot is going to look like sort of a vacant pile of rocks that's going to collect trash because it's not as nice as what you guys have done elsewhere. So the southwest corner has that one large tree, the white oak, but the rest of that kind of large yellow rectangle is all rock mulch, and I just would be concerned that it's going to sort of look like a forgotten corner. It's very visible right there, and I think if it's planted, it might be treated better by the neighbors than if it's just rock mulch.

So an alternate to the rock mulch.

Just more planting. I mean everything else you guys have along the whole site looks great I would just love to see more of it. I know that it's not free So I acknowledge that you guys are already going above it, but if there's a way to consider Planting that out a bit more I just find rock corners with a sign and like a monument sign to look You know far more suburban than I would like to see in what is effectively a residential area So if there's a way to improve that that would be great I'm sure we can do that

Okay.

And you mentioned, did you get a notice for the September?

I don't remember getting either at all.

And I, you know, we use the, we go to the county website, the address, it develops a thousand foot radius and gives all the notices.

Would it have been postcard or actual mail?

It's a mail with four or five sheets of paper. That's what I would have thought.

Yeah. I don't remember seeing it. I'm sorry, but. Yeah, again, I would have supported.

I probably would have recognized your name, actually, if I had gone through the list.

So we'll have to see why that happened.

All right, Nancy, can you remind me of the process to open it up for members of the public to comment or to ask questions?

You can just ask if there's anyone here that wants to speak in favor. Thank you.

Anybody here tonight that has questions for the applicant or would like to testify one way or another, you can go ahead and come up.

Nancy will give you some instructions.

Please raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm under the penalties of perjury that you will tell the truth in the proceeding before the Planning and Zoning Commission?

I do.

Please state your name and address.

Anthony Acosta-Kane, 3043 South Lincoln Street. So Walgreens has delivery that normally happens where those new parallel parking spots are happening. So I was just curious if there's a plan for deliveries and how often they're happening because Walgreens was using that spot. So I'm curious what you're doing.

That's my question.

they're facing or don't answer so as far as that deliveries we actually don't have substantial libraries means really what we have would come through I'm sorry sir could you turn and speak into the my area so our deliveries are not substantial we have food deliveries that come potentially twice a week and then other than that We don't actually have a great number, like we're not a Walgreens, so we don't have a lot of stuff coming into the center. It's just some consumables and things of that nature. And also our delivery trucks are not semis. We do not have large vehicles that come in. A lot of times it'll be an Amazon truck or a truck of that size. It'll just come into the parking lot, come either to the entry door, um you know the the the access um the director assistant director meets them and then they you know dolly the the goods into the um location so we have far less i i've never um worked for a walgreens i've seen deliveries and things of that nature um as far as frequency the size of trucks and what we're getting i would have to say is probably 20 percent of what a walgreens would would receive thank you anyone else here tonight i'd like to

Make comment or ask questions.

All right.

Last chance, Commissioner. Remember, once we close the public hearing portion, we can no longer ask questions of staff or the applicant, but that's our time for discussion. No.

Kyle, are you here to talk about traffic and the striping? Is somebody here to talk about that? Well, if you don't know, if you're not the right person, but I was wondering if that's why you were here.

Staff yeah, it was a staff question, but you have to go yeah Do you swear or affirm under the penalties of perjury that you will tell the truth in this proceeding before the Planning and Zoning Commission Thank you.

Please state your name Kyle Branham city engineer of public works

So I agree with the applicant that having the bike lane moved to the curb and not having it cross the Traffic lane is certainly better it's still 5-foot bike lane, 10-foot traffic lane, that's like pretty close conflict zone there. And I'm wondering if with the addition of the striping to two lanes, so there'll be the dedicated left turn lane, if we are also looking at potentially making that no right turn on red. Because the other lane will be for cars going straight and cars turning right. And they will be turning across anybody who is waiting in the bike lane or obviously pedestrians as well crossing there. And so when it was one lane, and as was mentioned, there's the struggle with cars backing up, I could certainly understand that there would be a lot of resistance to potentially making that right turn on red, or no right turn on red. But with the dedicated left turn lane and the bike lane to the right, is that something that could happen, or has it been considered?

That hasn't been considered at this point. It is something that, you know, as the project is completed and we have actual data of the actual area, it is something that we could change if needed. But at this time, we don't have any plans to make that no right on red.

Okay. Thank you. Michelle?

Well, I wanted to just do

do a little push back on the parking spaces I think in this case it's better to have more parking spaces just from a safety standpoint if nothing else you don't want to have moms or dads or family with little kids walking across the parking lot and not or having to park somewhere in the neighborhood or something like that and having to walk to their car so I think that it's better that you have the 43 spaces than fewer

Yes.

Please raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm under the penalties of perjury that you will tell the truth in this proceeding before the Planning and Zoning Commission? Yes. If you could please state your name and address.

My name is Lashita Sayer. I live at 1720 East Dartmouth Avenue. So a couple blocks, like everybody else, we're all a couple blocks away from this space. I'm here because I was hoping to see some EV charging stations added to this location because it just feels like an ideal location with a lot of visibility for light and potentially a safer location, but I wasn't sure what the parking situation was. reason why I'm here and I was just hopeful but I don't see it here because it's probably not a requirement but having charging stations in a place like this would be really helpful and I the last thing I want to do is slow things down I know what that's like but if there's a possibility if you guys can keep that in mind if not on this one but on future projects where there's major intersections and a great amount of visibility and potentially additional parking that might be allocated. I think that would be helpful for the community overall. We don't have as much high density in this part of town, but because of its proximity to some of the other apartments, there are a few other public charging stations a couple of blocks north and on the other side, on the Denver side of things, and they're always full. So when possible, I, as a citizen, would appreciate a little more thought into how we're locating some of our public charging infrastructure.

Thank you. Thank you. Commissioners, last chance. All right, can I get a motion to close the public hearing?

I'll make a motion to close these 012 2025-003 Walgreens plan development amendment.

I'll second. Ms. Austin? Yes. Mr. Montillo?

Aye.

Mr. Adams? Yes. Ms. Hupka? Yes. Mr. Renson? Yes. Mr. Kaplan?

Aye.

Ms. Cesario? Yes. And Chair Martinez?

Aye.

Motion passes.

Thank you. All right, now it's our job to come up with a recommendation to council on what to do with this PUD. Discussion, any further discussion? I do agree with the applicant's consultant last point. Keeping this in a PUD does, and that's why I was asking about the use. High quality early childhood education is at such a rarity and is in high demand all over All over period, I was gonna say all over the city, but all over the metro area all over. And I think it would make it, you know, if this operator, you know, for whatever reason would have to close their operations, it would make it attractive to just have another ECE come into this space. It would be purpose built out for that. I think it kind of, like somebody mentioned earlier, like, you know, if it went back to an MUB2, you know, any number of things could come. I think this is highly beneficial to the neighborhood, to the community, to Englewood as a whole. So I'm in support of that. I agree. It sounds like the process has been cumbersome, especially for something that's as beneficial as this. I think that's a separate conversation to have. But I will be recommending this for Google.

Any other thoughts? Eric?

i would just say that i drove by the one in uh up on kipling i believe it is and uh it looks to be a a good run operation and and everything looked good and i would uh i'm in support of it as well can i make a motion

I'll make a motion to council that the approved a case as these are what is the zero and twenty twenty five to zero three the walgreens plan development for tear and condado deker.

I'll second.

Are you ready to vote or do you have oh, yeah, yeah, I think No, we're good.

All right. Thank you. Ms. Austin.

Yes, and I also think that this is a good use of the Old Walgreens building and will add to the city of Englewood in many ways and I'm thankful for the addition of child care.

Thank you Mr. Montiel I Mr. Adams

Hi.

Ms. Hupka? Yes.

Mr. Renson?

Yes.

Mr. Kaplan?

Aye.

Ms. Cesario? Yes. And Chair Martinez?

Aye.

Motion passes. Thank you.

All right. Thank you, applicants. You're welcome to stay for our four exciting agenda items that we have remaining, or you're welcome to take off. So thank you, everybody, for being here for this case this evening.

We'll move on to staff's choice. I actually don't have anything to add. Okay.

Thanks, Brooke. Attorney's choice, Mr. Higgins. I have nothing either. Thank you.

Sorry, I do. No, you're fine. I just wanted to let you know we will be having a meeting on June 16th. It'll be another public hearing. uh actually it will be two you'll be hearing two cases it's a vacation of a utility easement and a vacation of a right-of-way those will be brought forward by our utilities and public works staff and then on july 7th we will be having a study session on the residential non-conforming uses great thank you sorry for skipping over that um commissioner's choice let's start on the side with amy nothing

So this is the second time adding in the 401 Englewood Parkway PUD that it has felt to me that staff was putting a thumb on the scale in favor of more parking when there was no such requirement to do that. And that is a big concern for me. And I think this particular instance also has the added layer of the fact that it feels like the applicant shouldn't have even had to go through this process in the first place, given that it is part of what would be the permitted use for the zone. So, Jackson, maybe this is something of a comment for you. I would love to see a review of how we got here as far as what does it say or not say in our code that required this applicant to go through this arduous process for something that that would have been on any other site in the same zone a use by right. Because to me, that seems really problematic. It is not Tierra and Cantata's issue that Walgreens had a PD for that site. And it is an unnecessary barrier to getting these vacant properties filled and used for productive uses. And I would really like to see city staff take some initiative in getting something in front of council so that this doesn't happen again. Because to me, this is a waste of everybody's time and is, like I said, more importantly, it's blocking the business from Getting started and using the space and instead we have a vacant property so I would really like to see that addressed in the future.

I have nothing further.

I mean, there is no underlying code once there's a PUD in place. That code is gone. And I understand this is a cumbersome process, but also that either a PUD impairs or enhances the value of a property, and it's reflected in the market price and the sales price. I think there's some things there. I think this is an example where Yeah, it did not go well, but there are or it didn't go ideal in this scenario for this user, for this owner of the property. But I think there are circumstances where that is protective and where there has been a lot of input into what that PUD is. And, you know, just reverting it back to an old code could have a lot of unintended consequences as well, especially if that old code was, you know, one that's 60 years old or, you know, whatever, whatever was there before. So I think there's just some processes there. I don't disagree that it's worth examination, especially in cases like this. But I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Yeah, that's all I have. Brenda.

My takeaway from what they said was that had they vacated the PD, it would have opened up the door for anybody else to apply to use the space. And we know that there was competing car wash. And I would much rather have, I think that would have been a problematic for the city, especially for that neighborhood. We have to consider, too, when it comes to parking, that I always think of it as the joiner's stencil, but it's a hamburger stand. And that awkward exit they have right there, and then people having to drop off kids and not being able to get into that lot and stay. So I agree that we need less parking at some of our shopping centers for sure, but This is a unique corridor. That's not what I wanted to say at the ending. Last time we met, we had a lot of discussion about the budget. And I just have a couple of suggestions. When I learned about the budget, or I should say, a couple of things that helped me learn. was the only council meeting I pay much attention is the forecasted budget. That happens in the fall, and that's really when they explain a lot about the income and the money coming in. They go over what the county is going to send us in taxes. They talk to us about the revenue. That was one thing that helped me understand. The other thing is, sit down with Steve Ward. He will MEET WITH YOU IF YOU WANT PRIVATELY AND DISCUSS AND ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS. HE USED TO BE ON THE BUDGET COMMITTEE AND HE IS PROBABLY THE BEST AND MOST KNOWLEDGEABLE PERSON ABOUT THE BUDGET ON COUNCIL STAFF. THAT'S ALL I HAVE.

And I'm sorry, I did have one more comment. I couldn't agree more with Noah about the, it's not the right word, but seemingly a habit to push towards the worst case scenario parking. I understand it could be to quell potential pushback from the public. You know, there's a certain contingent that is very concerned with parking and traffic. But I think there is something to look at there of not always defaulting to the most stringent or the worst case scenario. And I would even advocate for if the ITE is what the default reference is to go for the least stringent And start there. And if there is public concern, if there is, then let's hear it in a venue like this and consider it duly and not push for a design or a site plan that is always promoting the maximum parking number that's referenced by an international standard.

Thank you.

Just want to put that in there.

David. Nothing for me.

I would agree with both of you, Aaron and Noah, that we don't want to continue to have vast swaths of parking and no cars in there at all. But I also agree that this is a very unique site. And because I do see virtually every weekday the backup along Dartmouth going into Joshua School, And that would be a disaster if that happened here. We've got, like everybody's pointed out, that hamburger stand. I think of it as well, but they're supposed to only turn right, but they don't all do that. And so adding more More cars in unexpected ways would be really very impactful to the whole intersection. And I think that having this additional parking is good. But I do agree that we don't want to have vast things of parking. And this is an infill redevelopment kind of thing. We will have those opportunities down the road with Civic Center and things like that to address those other issues.

So thanks.

Carl.

I agree that we don't need another car wash or another car lot. And that's something that's going to serve the community as to further kids to grow up, you know, for learning and whatnot. So I think it's going to be a useful use for the land. And I believe the number of cars that will be going through there and the amount of time that they'll have to go through there, you could have a problem in the parking lot there. But I think it's a good community. It's going to be an addition to the community. I'm not sure what their tuition is going to be, but it's probably going to be high.

All right. Thank you. And with that, we are at the end of our agenda, and we will adjourn.

Thank you, everybody. Thanks for your comments and thoughts and input tonight.