Planning Board - Regular Meeting

The City of Elsa Planning Board meeting for May 7th, [Music] 2025. Introductions, please. Mark Rich, board member. Vince Messer, board member. John Deleo, chair. Rick Liles, vice chair. Mike Haney, board member. Uh, staff introduction, [Music] assistant city planner, Britney Merrell. Uh, Robert Grant, code enforcement officer. Thomas Gman, fire inspector. Okay. Uh we don't have the minutes from the April 2nd meeting. So we'll bypass that. Item number three, final plan review of a major use site development plan entitled Daart's convenience store for applicant and owner Daart Realy Operations LLC. The proposal is to construct a convenience store, car wash, and retail space. The subject property is approximately 2.80 acres located at 269 and 271 High Street. Tax Map 128, lots two and three located in the commercial zoning district. Someone here representing Dice. Scott Brily with Plymouth Engineering. Mr. Chairman, thank you. Okay, the floor is all yours. Thank you very much. Um, first of all, just want to thank staff again for all their help with this project. It uh has been very valuable as we put together the package. Um, we are here for final review tonight. If you take a look at the cover letter on the top of your booklets, you will see a list of what we understood to be the questions or concerns from the preliminary review. And so we have addressed each of those. And I will just quickly go through those um after a general summary of the project and then um be willing to take any questions. Um we uh have revised the plans based on the input from the planning board and staff and others since the preliminary meeting. Um again,

we're doing a new retail facility with eight fueling positions for gasoline and uh uh vehicular traffic as well as two fueling positions in the back for diesel trucks. Um once that is all up and going, we'll be tearing down the existing car wash and building a new tunnel car wash. And then following that, um we'll be building the twounit retail building on the on what is the basically the north side of the project. Um, from the previous reviews and input from staff and yourselves, um, there was a question from staff regarding the pylon sign we were putting up. Um, the one that we had in our original package was larger than allowed by the city of Ellsworth's specifications. Um, the one that is been appendix F now, um, the staff has reviewed and does meet the specs. um as well as it has been relocated. Um due to the main DO's obstruction laws, the island between the two driveways is not wide enough to be 20 ft from the curb line. So we've moved it just north of the entrance um and behind the sidewalk and out so that it's 20 ft from the curb line. Uh so that was that. The there is some revised data um from the traffic engineer. A couple different parts. one regarding updated crash data from including the 2024 data that became available and also um the addition of some information for Short Street. Um the conclusion from that and also um from the letter uh from the butter regarding the proximity of the entrance to the entrance exit for Dairy Queen. um the DOT and the uh traffic engineer determined that there was that was not going to be an issue um that it

was less of an issue than the the distance between the two um existing entrances and exits of of Dairy Queen. Um, the third thing that was on our list was there was some letters we had produced for the fire department, water and sewer that were in our package, but they at that point had not been signed by those agencies. They now have been and are provided um in appendix E. Uh, we received some comments from the arbor commission on with some recommendations about the number of trees on the street as well as the species of trees. Our plans have been updated to match the arbor commission's uh recommendations. So you'll see those trees on sheet C1. And when you go to the landscape detail sheet, they actually call out for the species is is on that as well as some clarification they ask for regarding some of the notes, mulching notes, things like that. So that has all been incorporated into the plan after we received those comments from the arbor commission. Additionally, we have a revised sighting plan. Um, there was some spillover on the butter. Um, that has been removed. Uh, there is still a very limited spill over at the exit um to High Street. Uh but I as I noted then um for that exit the the DOT in their permit is looking to have I think it's 6 to1 foot candles um at that exit and and we're in the vicinity of 2.3. So that together with the street lights across I think will be will be adequate for that. Um, and so we do have that little bit of spillover which is contrary to your ordinance, but um, based on I think we'll hear from staff on that issue as as we get going tonight. Uh, there was a manhole

proposed to connect to the existing sewer on High Street. After working with the sewer department, what we ended up doing is they're they're decided they just soon have a a sanitary Y at the main itself. We moved the manhole back in onto the site about 20 ft so it's not so it wasn't in the entrance or in um High Street. So that's been adjusted as well. Um the internal sidewalk that we have that runs up the north side of the site um we have adjusted based on DO's request to put an esplanade. Um, we did not want to put curbing there for snow plowing purposes and so the DOT asked us to put an esplanade between the sidewalk and the main traffic flow within the site. So, we have done that. Um that also brings up the subject of of snow um removal that you folks had questioned last time and it's in our response later but since I'm on it the um the dicearts have their own vehicles and they're and do a lot of their own work on sites. They typically are a little careful about lawn maintenance and so their plows are directed only to plow until they're on front wheels of the plow truck are about to leave the pavement. So then if there's an accumulation snow they bring in the loader and trucks and take it off. So the the concern I think was the continued pushing of snow if we had a bad winter and it ended up ending up down in the Dairy Queen driveway. And so that's how that will be prevented by the routine maintenance that Daars will do. Uh we also were asked about a gutter on the re rear excuse me rear of the retail building there. Um we have added that gutter and it will discharge in the same place as the foundation drain that is now shown on the utility plans that the chairman requested being shown because we didn't show the actual

foundation drain discharge and we have added those to the plans as well. Um and um with regard to the concern raised by the abutter about the grades at the interconnect, the way we have it graded right now, if nothing was to be done on the um on the Abutter's property, we're still a little bit less than 5% grade between the turn out of our parking lot and um the interconnect at the property line. So 5% is one and 20. that actually meets a handicap ramp with no with no rail grade. So, um we think that is certainly flat enough to dissuade any concerns. Um and with that, we have received and I think you probably have a copy in your packages of the final DOT permit, transportation permit is the has been signed by um the assistant state traffic engineer. And so that subject is taken care of. We are currently um I guess you could say postumously working through the developer agreement situation with the DOT because we the as you're well aware we came in early got the road opening permit because it's in the contact contract zone. You guys did it um as a city and we got the utilities done and the sidewalk and curbing done and got out of the way of of the paving project. Well, because this project has a traffic movement permit, any work we're doing in their rightway requires us to have a developer agreement with the DOT. Um, that is currently pending. We're working through that with them right now. There's no issues. Um, the the woman who's dealing with it from DOT actually offered to make out the application for us if we needed her to just to get it taken care of. Um, but that is one thing. Um, not that I am a big fan of conditions and permits, but that is one

thing that probably being that we don't have that, uh, the the staff would probably recommend and I would suggest that there be a condition on any approval that you gave tonight that that um developer agreement be finalized with the main DOT. And with that, I am done and ready for any questions or comments. You want to have some? I have a couple. Yeah, I I looked at the uh some of the additional stuff like traffic accidents and so forth could have been a little easier to find, but uh you know, I glad to see that it was basically there. And you know, the the comments and concerns that I had for the most part were satisfied by the additional data and the various you know, back and forth, the emails and whatever. So, so I'm I'm basically don't have anything to say about that. I guess u you know I I still have concerns about the interaction with Short Street. At the same time, there's I think that they have addressed that to the extent that they possibly can. And in a very real sense, Short Street actually isn't your problem. It's, you know, the state's problem or the city's problem or whatever. So, you know, that's a bad situation. I don't think you've made it any worse. uh cutting down the number of curb cuts and so forth along high streets that is a good thing. I see it took care of the potential uh sight distance problem out of the one exit. Yeah. Exit uh in terms of the positioning of the tree and and so forth. So I'm basically good, I think. But I do reserve the right to chime in whenever I want to. To be expected. There you go. Any other questions? I don't uh on

the the commercial building off the on the north side of the the lot on each side you have a 5ft walkway and then the 5ft grass esplanade that did you say in where all those parking places are is I see the ballers but is there a curb there there is not a curb there's not a curb there believe it or not in all the stores we've done for dice ice in recent years, the only one that they put curbing on. 3 months later, a lady drove through the middle of into the middle of the of the store. So, they have gone in all cases to to flat walkways and bulge at the at the parking spaces to keep people from running into the building, quite frankly. And what we've done, and it may be a little hard to follow, but what happens is the sidewalk comes up with the esplanade. Then as we get to the building, the esplanade ends. We have just the walkway behind the ballards. Then as we get to the west of the building, the esplenade comes back in play and the walkway is 5 ft off the pavement again. And so you so somebody comes in from High Street on on the sidewalk, they have that's going to be asphalt or concrete or right some type of sidewalk. And let's say they walk in from High Street to that commercial building, they walk a certain distance on the sidewalk and then walk on grass. No, actually if you it it's probably a little hard to see on the plan. If you allow me, I'll point out on the plan, you'll see that the edge of the pavement right here is cur is is angled out so that we end the esplenade and the walkway goes at a 45 over to the walkway

in front of the building. Okay. So the grass esplanods are on either end of the of the building will angle out to the sidewalk. An esplanade is just a kind of a grassy strip. It's just a grass strip. It's a 5ft grass strip. So just wanted to use that fancy name there. Yeah. Yes. Okay. Got it. Okay. You see where Yeah. Yeah. And that word came from DOT. That's what they made. Of course it did. Why am I not surprised? Probably came from Spain. But anyway, [Music] we're going to rename that anyway. Probably I'll have some That's a good at the public meeting. Andrew, are you coming up? I I would like you to. Okay. Okay. Sure. Because I Yeah. I want to go over your letter. Yeah. I mean, the applicant, I think, has addressed it, but I'd like to hear Yeah. You know, directly to you from because some of what you wrote I don't totally understand. So, I want to get a just to make sure I I totally understand it. But, uh, does anybody else have any questions? Otherwise, then we'll open it to a public hearing. And I'm inviting you up, Anderson. as he's going there. Can I ask one question real quick? Uh coming out of Short Street onto High Street, is there a no right turn sign there? There should be. No, I get that. Do we know if there is? I was going to venture over there to see, but there's a right turn only sign. Yeah, but that's it. Left. No, left. You're coming out on Short Street on the Oh, on Short Street. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think there is. I think there is too, but I'm not positive. I think there is.

And if that and that wouldn't be the developers uh responsibility to put that in there anyway. Not note note the city though that uh if that sign is not there, it should be there. If it's in bad shape, it should be updated and so forth and so on with or without this development actually. But yeah, absolutely. Okay. So, could you just go over your your points in your letter? Um, Andrew McCulla on behalf of the main coast mall property. And again, I think the with the DOT traffic movement permit being issued and the comments that have been received, I believe this has been addressed. My concern with was regarding traffic was with the right turns out of that exiton road that is on the south side of Dairy Queen that there was would be the potential for conflicts with vehicles entering Dais because they're going to be slowing down to enter just beyond that exit. Yeah, I mean I I understand your point, but I I guess I would say too that the similar situation exists on right turns coming out of McDonald's. Correct. Then kind of interfering, not interfering, but then you have the entrance into Derry Queen. Correct. Kind of the same situation. Correct. and and and when we did that project, we had to maintain a minimum of 75 ft separation there. What's a separation now? I I don't know what I haven't seen the final plan, frankly,

Scott, do you know what that separation is? I'm about to. Okay. An actual ruler. Every engineer comes equipped with I have I I have rules. I'm sure you do. And this also came from DOT. one of their engineers gave to which has the it has the 25 scale on it. It has the 25 scale on it which you can't get everywhere. Got a budget process. All right, let me see. 30 right there. From center of driveway to center of driveway is 80 ft. I mean at the closest point longer than at the closest point it is 60 ft. So that's that roughly the same. Yes, it's it's roughly the same. Okay. Yeah. So, and um my other comment or concern which was addressed by the gutter is um I was concerned about concentrated sheet flow off the roof coming down and then coming on to directly basically I mean because it's only 20 ft from that exit road coming right onto that exit road and especially in the winter time it being a problem. Um, but with having a gutter there to intercept that and take that and I'm assuming that takes it west with to your outlet. It takes it west to the to what would be the west end of the retail building which is where the foundation drain from that building and the convenience store both will discharge. Um and then from there it goes into the ditch to the culver, right, that crosses. Right. Yeah. So, so those were

um those were my two concerns. If and if there was additional surface water coming directly off that side and then coming down into the soil filter for Dairy Queen that that soil filter wasn't sized to treat it or handle it potentially. So, I did I did have that note in there about soil filter is not sized for additional off-site runoff, but with that water not going in that direction, that's not an issue. Now, the interconnection on the back of Daisarch's lot that goes into the back of Dairy Queen lot talked about a 5% grade. I mean, is that an issue? I mean, this is for an interconnect that basically could does lead out to the main coast mall parking lot. I I believe I mean it would be if the main coast mall constructed a road in the future that right now this interconnect just goes to Dairy Queen goes it just goes to the property line. Just goes to the property line, right? similar to it's similar to what was done up at Dunkin' Donuts up on the hill. Um they they were required to put in an interconnect and basically they put in a narrow interconnect to the property to the property line of Hilltops property. What was Hilltop's property? Um probably in a few months or so we'll be talking about that again or some more but for right now it is it's not the first time I have seen that 5% is a reasonable grade

um to try to tie into if the main coast mall has future development and is as a result of a traffic movement permit. permit or they're required to put in a connection. Well, is that interconnect set up in such a way that if Dairy Queen didn't want traffic can traffic go from when it's connected when when it's built, can traffic go from Dairy Queen into the Daos property and vice versa? That that's the intent. Actually, it was Dairy Queen's traffic movement permit that required that if they did work back there, they had to do this. And so, and so when we were doing our permitting, the the DOT engineer found that in the Dairy Queen traffic movement permit. And so they made us do ours to the property line cuz that dumps out back um just below the inlet of the culvert and into that big parking lot that is behind it's really behind the Dairy Queen proper site. It's the big parking lot. I understood it at one point was going to be a cinema or that there were plans that never got built, but it's not a it's not an actively used parking lot right now, I don't think. Is it? No, it is not. No. Well, I mean, technically, no. Yeah. So, correct me if I'm wrong, but because I don't have our numbers in front of me, but the dair that interconnection is be technically beyond what is leased by Dairy Queen. Is that correct? Okay. Okay. And I can only chime in and say it's where DOT told us to put it. Okay. If it's if it's beyond Dairy Queen.

So I mean this this is going to be pavement on your side, right? Going into gravel portion of Mango Mall, vacant lot. Is it set up in such a way that it would prevent people from coming through? If main coast mall didn't want traffic coming from Dais into that empty lot. Mhm. Is is this cross connect set up in such a way that that traffic is prevented? I mean I understand the concept of interconnection, right? If main coast mall and I don't know what happened with the pre with Dairy Queen if that had anything to do with with main coast mall. I mean, I'm just worried about, you know, traffic from Daiso. It's going into main co small lot if they don't want it. Right. All right. I I mean, right now, I think there's a strip of call it grass or where plowing is done, but what have you is is is it would be a pretty rough trip. I mean, I'd take my pickup through there once Dice Arch was done, but it's not intended. And I mean if if there's a concern on the board or Main Coast Mall's part, then we certainly can put you know put a couple of jersey barriers at the end of ours until such time that the connection is actually formalized. I mean I would suggest you have that conversation with Main Coast Wall. Oh. Uh the the dicearts sell a ton of fuel to them and they are in my my understanding is they're already planning to speak with Main Coast Mall about about formalizing that interconnection. Okay. So yes, I just like have good neighbors. That's fine. Or even a couple of ballards or something would something that could be removable easily. Mhm. So, yeah, with sockets so that they could be then I mean it's easier than moving around a chunk of jersey barrier or whatever. Yes. But that's for you guys to as far

as I'm concerned. Yeah. For you guys to decide. Yep. Okay. Then um Scott, uh Britney gave you a copy of an email from Bernard. I I read it quickly when when I came through the door. I think a I understand the issues and obviously this I'll make sure this is in the hands of the site contractor. Um, a lot of the work that may have temporarily been traffic issues were when they were out in the road doing the doing the water main because that's basically where they had to go over to that side to make that connection. At this point, the curb and sidewalk and utilities are done. So, all the work will be on site. Um, now with regard to the questions of dust and construction debris, um, I'll talk with the contractor and with Dice Arts and deal with it, whether it be, you know, snow fence or something that can help prevent that, you know, on a routine basis during construction. And how long is the construction period? Um, the store is supposed to is supposed to occupy and be open by the end of the year. So to me that says we'll have payment down before the plants close in November sometime. So they'll be rattling around on site constructing things throughout the summer between June. Yeah. Between June and the end of paving season and then finishing up after that because I'm sure the Hopes property and and Goodwill has even now has a fair amount of traffic cutting through for shortcuts. It happens. Yeah. All up and down High Street. Wherever somebody can find a shortcut, they take it. Even if it's not on a public road. Okay. Uh, anybody else from the public

want to address the board on this? And I will close the public hearing. Any other comments, questions from the board? Yes, sir. question. What was I knew you'd have another one? No, no, no. This not a question really. Well, it is. You have the word. You know, you talked about a condition earlier. What was the what what were the words of the condition because that needs to be in the uh the development that that the main DOT developer agreement be secured. I mean that's the only hole whatsoever in anything and and that's the formal name of that document that is yes the M do developer developer agreement agreement yes that is that the like three or four page doc letter you were talking about that dot yeah it's I mean I was making it out today and and send it off for for um signatures from dicearts today so we should be getting that all into um the DOT in the next day or so. So, an approved version of the M. Developer Agreement. Sure. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yep. Because once we submit it um with our signatures, um the DOT region engineer will will sign it and then we'll send them the check and then it'll get an official they'll get a win number. What they call the win number. I didn't need to know that. Okay. But yes. Okay. Oh, before you do that, nobody checked with Tom. I mean, we got your letter, but everything is all set with you guys. Yeah, good. Scott, any I mean, Rob, anything? Okay. Okay. Go in. Okay. So make the motion that they accept the final plan of a major site development plan entitled

guys convenience store for applicant and owner guys really realy operations LLC with the condition that a approved version of the M do developer M do-developer agreement be uh be received that's it second all from Baylor. Thank you once again. And so does that mean we have myars to sign after the meeting? We do. Okay. I will meet them with [Music] Thomas. [Applause] [Music] So lastly, okay. Uh item number four, however, due to changes in the plant, the changes in the south wing, what we're going to do is going to proceed with a final for the north wing and a preliminary for the south wing. And I think in one one of your emails you said you were okay with that. Uh yeah, our our goal is to really get the north wing finalized. Um south wing

construction doesn't start for a while. Uh okay. So I got to make a motion to change item four. We have to have item four and four eggs. So item four is a motion that's a motion to change item number four to final plan review of a major subdivision and major use site plan development title 59 Franklin phase one which is what we can what we referred to it previously. Uh and for applicant Cory Wegen and owner of 59 Franklin LLC, the proposal is to construct six dwelling units on a lot with existing structure subdivision. The subject property is approximately 27 acre lot located at 59 Franklin Street, tax map 134, lot 33 in the downtown zoning district. Is there a second? Sure. Yes. All in favor of changing item four. Uh and then we might as well I'll go on to I'm going to make a motion for uh item 4 A to add an agenda item preliminary plan review of a major subdivision and major use site development entitled 59 Franklin Street phase 2 for applicant Cory Legion and owner 59 Franklin LLC. The proposal is to construct two dwelling units. Is that correct, Cory? Yes. On a lot with an existing structure subdivision. The subject property is approximately 27 acre lot located at 59 Franklin Street, tax map 134, lot 33 in the downtown zoning district. Is there a second?

Second. All in favor? Okay. Let's just talk first about the final for phase one, the north wing. [Music] Okay. So to summarize, phase one, north wing was to convert what was a commercial restaurant into four dwelling units and it's substantially similar change since previous presentations. So I guess I can pass it to you guys if you have any specific questions on the north wing. Yeah. I mean, in the north lane, he's doing exactly what we previously approved, right? Are there any questions for Cory or staff on that? Any questions for Cy or staff on the north? Um the the only thing I have for you Corey um just for the um to make because of the official record um on the in in the application that you filled out um based upon the fire department letter um from from chief on his item number three on numbering and street signage. the very last section on page four or five. Um would you make sure sometime get with Britney or whatever and check basically the items as building numbering signage and door numbering signage. Okay, that needs to be part of the official record. Okay, and that would that would co coincide with the fire department's letter. So you could do that. Okay.

So, has from the fire department standpoint, has anything changed from the previous approval on phase one north wing that what we're phase one north wing? We are 100% in agreement that as is. Okay. And it's good to go. Yes, sir. [Music] So, I guess from the process you've gone through just a reminder that once you get this approval you have to take it to registering D. Yeah. So do you have are those for us to sign the mileer? This is the mileer. Correct. Okay. I just want to make sure. Um okay. So I'll make a motion. Oh public hearing. Does anybody any questions close public hearing? So I'll make a motion to I just want to say what what what the what the reg is going to look for is is your action letter. So once that's all done, he can he can go over and get it registered and they'll they don't want the miler, but they do want a co a paper paper copy of the plan. Um uh so that's just I just wanted to make sure that was known that they they they'll they won't accept it until the our action letter or your action letter is done. Um I wondered if you look through the past approval because before it came through was phase one and phase two. I don't recall, but you could check to see if there was an action letter on phase one, which probably nothing has changed. The only thing you probably going to have to change is the date. So, you probably won't have to draft a whole new one. Okay. Uh, don't they want to see the signed? Yes, they they want to see a the paper

because the signed paper copy, right? Um, but they don't action and the action. Yeah. uh from the previous subdivision we did, that's what they wanted to see, the uh Grand View. Okay. No, but that's what that Won't there be a difference between the action letter for a phase one versus the whole thing? No, I don't. You have to Yeah, you'd have to go back because we approved it in phases. Did we? Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, all right. So, you dig out the action letter. Well, dig out the action letter for phase one. See what it says. Uh if it's just a matter of changing the date or updating it, then just give me a call and I'll come in and sign it. So, just some just some paperwork before we Yeah. before we make it official. What what he needs. Yeah. Uh Okay. So, anything else from stamp? Okay. So then I'll make a motion to approve the final plan review of a major subdivision and major use site plan development title 59 Franklin for applicant wait for fif make a motion to approve the final plan review of a major subdivision and major use site plan entitled 59 Franklin phase one for applicant Corey Wegen and owner 59 9 Franklin LLC. Second. All in favor? Okay. Now we're on to 4 A, which is H 4 B. 4B. Okay. 4B. Not too good. Preliminary for plan review of a major

subdivision and major use site development entitle 59 Franklin phase 2 for applicant Cory Legion and owner 59 Franklin LLC. The proposal is to construct two dwelling units on a lot with an existing structure subdivision. The subject property is approximately 27 acre lot located at 59 Franklin Street. Tax map 134 plot 33 in the downtown zoning district. Cory is here to represent owner 59 Franklin. So this concerning the south wing which through last month came up that it may be lodging and rooming and as we move to the final for the project Scott introduced the barrierfree permit. So other than that, the floor plans and layout for the south wing remain changed, but there was that new stipulation of a barrier free construction permit. Uh perhaps chief, why don't you explain why we've gone from the previous plan that had technically had seven bedroom. So originally, my apologies, Scott, fire chief. So the uh the original plan that was submitted for uh phase 2 southwave identified seven units um and by the state's definition it was it would be classified as rooming and lodging um because there were no individual kitchens for each unit. There was a shared kitchen which took it away from being a dwelling unit specifically as residential dwelling and it moved it into the category of rooming and rooming and lodging similar to uh bed and breakfast. Um, by that classification, everything that he had done uh that Corey had done previously with firewalls and all that

stuff met all the categories except for under the roaming and lodging um designation, the state requires what they call a barrierfree construction or a construction and and a construction permit that has to be issued by the fire marshall's office. And so based on that designation from the fire marshall's office, we relayed that back to Corey so that he and his partners could make a decision on how they wanted to move forward. Um, with that information, this is how we've we've moved into this new designation with the two individual uh apartment units, which changes its classification to residential dwelling because now there is one kitchen and three bedrooms in one unit and four bedrooms in another unit. So now it's just a residential dwelling unit. Pardon me. The same rules apply on the firewall between the two units. Just the one hour. Okay. Because it's sprinkled building which is the 1 in. You remember that 5/8 inch type drywall? Yep. Didn't you state in the last meeting that you were planning on one inch? No. No. There was a confusion and discussion around the firewalls, but I think it's moved. So, is the 5/8 a one hour wall? Correct. I guess I I have one question. Well, maybe two. Uh, so the current plan, if I read the plans correctly, each of the bedrooms is going to have an exterior door as well as an exterior door to the living room. I mean, that that I mean, it look like

each bedroom has an exterior door and an interior access to the shared kitchen. And then to meet the egress requirements of that living space, we put in a door. I mean, I'm just curious why you would have an entrance door into each bedroom. Ease of access. I mean, normally a a three-bedroom apartment would have a main entrance into the apartment and you go into the bedrooms. Okay. I mean, I I don't see why you can't have No, you can. I mean, it I guess it pops into my mind that this is a way to get around the other. So, as we were resubmitting this, Britney kind of mentioned any changes would complicate putting back to preliminary, uh, which we just submitted it as it was. Um, so there were no changes made here. Um, because until tonight, we didn't know it was going to be split up and pushed back to preliminary again on the south. I mean, is is the long-term goal at some point to rent individual bedrooms? Um, from what Scott discussed, it sounds like that may still push it back into rooming and lodging. I'm sorry, say again. And maybe he can talk to that point, but my understanding is that may push it back into rooming and lodging. That is correct. And that is something that code would be

responsible for making sure it didn't happen basically. Yeah. So the windows you have in each unit are they egress size windows? Do you know that? Well, it has a door. So that is the egress. That's my point is if you had egress size windows, you wouldn't need the door. Uh there is sufficient space to make those egress windows. Yes. Okay. In previous talking with the fire chief, uh the way this is set up now, there were stairs on the back on the west side of the building which don't have to be there now. So if it if it goes to residential dwelling as it's presented to us right now with two individual apartments, then the the stairs on the back are no longer required because it becomes a basically a balcony or a a balcony. It's not required because it's because it's residential. Because it's residential. Correct. So I guess that'd be your choice as to whether you want to build those stairs or not. Yeah. You can see we noted on the plan it's only one to three steps to grade at that particular area. No. Okay. Yeah. Because the back side of the building is partially grade and partially another walk out. Um and the change also will change Larry Gardner's addressing. So, both of these apartments have a Franklin Street address. You should. Yes. And it's one address per dwelling unit which has four bedrooms. Correct. Three and three and four. Correct. Well, three. Yeah. Right. Each each part each apartment unit should have its own address identifier, not the not the bedrooms. Okay. Okay. It

would end up being 59 Franklin, unit D and unit E because we have A, B, and C already, correct? On the north. Yes. And all this is sprinkled, correct? This whole section. Correct. So I think it's I mean these big ones we have I mean still indicate This will have to be rewind. Uh yeah, it was submitted as it was because with the discussion with with Britney was that it had to be submitted that way to basically continue moving forward in the current process. Yeah. But I mean that so a lot of this information kind of came between TRT and the final submission. Well, when you come back for final, I mean, you'd have to eliminate the 50 Water Street to un adjusted parts B and I don't it has still has addresses for Water Street. Correct. And the and the basically the seven units. Correct. Okay. So, so that 58 Water Street still applies because there are units designated 58 Water Street. Uh the very back one you'll see 58 Water Street 2A in the top right corner. It's part of the north the first phase. It's part of phase one. There's a water there's a water street access. The building will still have two separate street addresses upon completion. Not the south wing though. Okay. Okay. Okay. Thank you. say not to not to belabor the issue like you Cy um but the fact that this is all sprinkled um one egress window in each bedroom

would eliminate all the doors that you have because it is sprinkled because it's considered residential. I don't know if that would save you some money or not, but the fact that you had an egress window and you wouldn't have to put doors in it, then you'd be good to go because it is considered residential. So, might be something you may want to look at. But he can sell the doors if he wants to and that's Yeah. I mean, he could get rid of the the main entrance door, but in each one of the bedrooms, right? No, I understand that. So, but that's totally on Yeah, that's totally on him, but I It could be a savings for you. Check on that. Okay. So, any other questions? Do we have a public hearing? Open the public hearing. Close the public hearing. So, fast. Yeah. I think we actually did it twice. Okay. So, I'll make a motion that we approve the preliminary plan review of a major subdivision, major use site development, title 59 Franklin Street, phase 2. applicant Cory Ouija and owner 59 Franklin LLC second all in favor see item number five proposed amendments chapter 56 unified development ordinance article two plan approval and permitting procedure proposed amendment will remove section 208-1 building permit fees from chapter 56 with the intention of creating its own chapter in the city ordinance. Mr. Grant. Hi. Uh so this all came about oh around December January. I I started poking

around and realized that the the uh building fees haven't been updated in a couple of decades. Uh yeah. Uh when Dwight Tilton was hired in 2005, the building the single family residential building uh permit fee was 17 cents. Um that was when he was hired. That's what it was. He never touched it. Uh it was adopted into into the UDO when it became a thing in 2012 or 2013. and uh my intention is to finally update them after however many decades into a unified building fee ordinance with the plumbing fees, electric fees, everything else. Um, but uh the reason I want to take them out and make them their own uh own ordinance is because every time I want to go address a fee schedule change, I would have to come before you and ask if you think it's a good idea when I think that's kind of a waste of our time uh to be honest. So if I just make it its own ordinance and then have 56u uh 2081 I believe it is refer to that new ordinance rather than have the fee schedule in in the ordinance itself. I think that would be sufficient rather you know and it would just eliminate this whole process we're doing now every time I want to adjust a fee schedule a nickel or whatever or if I want to add something new or take something out. So you say make your own chapter in the ordinance. Yes. Make have a unified building fee schedule. Have plumbing in there. Have electric in there. Everything that we do. So where where are plumbing and electric and whatever else? They have their own chapters. I think there's plumbing. Plumbing is 26. And I can't remember what what electric is off the top. That's fine. Yeah. So anyway, so so th there are those fee schedules. Correct. And they're also out of date. I'm sorry. there. The plumbing fee schedule one does not even reflect the current state minimums. It was it was adopted in '98

and never updated given those fee schedules that exist right now or those fees. And if you change those, what's the process? I just go to the I go to the city council and say I'd like to amend the or chapter with the fee change. So the council in fact does have oversight then correct on and that would continue to be the case. Correct. with these with these guys. It was all all I'm doing here is asking permission to remove a responsibility from you that I think is overburdensome. I don't want to be burdened. Yeah. But but not overburdened, right? Or even underburden. Um well, under that gets me out of a job, I suppose. But in any event, so what you're saying is take this guy out of here, put it with these other guys, and whenever there are changes or whatever, they still have to be approved by council. Correct. Okay. That's what I wanted to know. I mean, in all the years I've been on the plan board, we've never I don't think there's been any discussion of fees. That's because no one wanted to burden you, John. Exactly. Oh, thank you very much. Thank you. Well, appreciate it. For for for a little more context for this, the reason I wanted to do it to begin with is because I I discovered that the the code office is running at a roughly $40,000 deficit. Uh in large part because the fees haven't been touched in at least 20 years. I I can attest to that. I've been I was up there I don't know how long and they've been the same ever since I can remember. And that's over 20 Yeah. 25 years or so. The only question I had was ultimately the council does approve these puppies. The the the Yes, the council will still be able to tell me yes or no on these up and that's fine. I mean with me. Yep. Okay. Any other questions? So take away the public hearing. Any questions, sir?

No. No. Okay. Close the public hearing. So make a mo move make a motion to present the amendments to chapter 56 article 2 section 208.1 to the city council. Second. You're kind of taking over things here. I want to just speed it up a little way. Doesn't that have to state um that we're creating its own chapter in the city [Music] ordinance in the motion? I'm not honestly not sure you you can abstate that if you'd like. You can So where where are these going to go? They're it'll go into its own chapter. Okay. move to present the amendments of chapter 56 article 2 section 2081 to the city council for inclusion in their own chapter. [Music] And do we need to have something that I mean if we approve this and it's not approved yet by council I mean it's not like there's a a fee free zone in there. No, all all you're all you're doing is recommending to the council that they do move forward with my proposal. Okay. There's no nothing will be nothing falling in that crack. Yeah. No, there there will be no wild west where no permits or fees or anything until that happen. Yes. Because you know the developers will come out of the woodwork. Absolutely. I I will have to pro Jesus. I'll have a I'll have thousands of permits between now and then if that's the case. I promise. But no, uh there won't be any any laps in fees until the new one's adopted. Good. Okay. So, is there a second on my amended motion? I think I did that. Okay. All in favor? Okay. I guess Britney, if it does go to the council approves it, then you just have to revise this chapter or something in the end specifying that it was

amended on such and such state by the city council and it's moved elsewhere. I like this idea. It sounds a lot cleaner. Yeah, I think it's a lot simpler to to do it. It's easier on him and everybody else. I Yeah. as as part of uh as part of this whole new process as well, I want to have it stated that every 5 years or whatever, the code office is required to go through and and look at the at the fee schedule and see if it needs to be adjusted up or down or whatever, but it's there's no requirement to do it now. Obviously, it hasn't been done. Will there be any study done on where these fees should be? Yes. I um for for one one of the things I've done to to um look at it is um I took 17 cents in 2005 and I did a I did just because that's what it was. The last time I I knew that what what it was. I asked Dwight personally. He it was 17 cents when he came here and it was never updated. So 17 cents in 2005 money ends up being about 28 cents in 2025 money. Uh and I I want to make the I want to make the single family uh residential permit 25 cents. So I I want to make it roughly in line with inflation but not quite. And that even at even at 25 cents using that as my example that's still half of what most towns are. You know the even smaller towns on this. Bar Harbor is at 41 cents a square foot for for your single family uh residential building permit. I'm so glad you said square foot. I was absolutely appalled that you were charging 17 cents. No, no, no. 17. Sorry. I Yes. 7 square foot. Thank you. Per square foot of the building. Okay. It's It's one of those things I I in my head I I It's almost there without

thinking. I know what I'm talking about, but I'm glad you asked for the clarification. I guess I just wonder if 25 cents is too low. It It may be. Um like I said, I I wanted to try to keep it right around inflation. So, in a couple of years, um I when I reook at it, I I actually already have a a plan to go to 30 cents. U because that would be roughly in line with what it will be. Hopefully hopefully inflation doesn't go out of control. And I would guess the council would ask for what the fees are in neighboring towns. Oh yeah. I I have I have all that data. I've I I I actually took it to the finance committee several months ago now when I had Bar Harbor, Brewer, Rockland, I had a bunch of towns that you know, Orino, I had similar size municipalities. The council has to approve your increases. Correct. Right. So, that's they have to approve that I I make the ordinance to begin with and then all the changes as well. Yes. Anything else on that? No, unless you have any questions? No. Anything else on the staff comments? Not that I can any updates on planner hiring? No. Oh, somebody's somebody's in the hot seat now. G thought I was going to get out of here. Come off here. Hi everyone. Sarah Delin, deputy city manager. Um, we went through our first round of interviews um from our first kind of pool of candidates. Um, that we had some great interviews, but didn't really feel like we had hit a sweet spot for somebody who was going to be a good fit with the with where we're at with the city. Um, so we reposted it under um APA, the American

Planning Association. We have received 60 applicants in like two days. So we're going through the process. We just had an interview this Monday. That was really good. Um, so that person will probably come on to another um interview, second interview. Um, but yeah, we're going through the second round of applications right now. Didn't you have about 60 the first time as well? Yeah. And it's a mix. It's a wide variety of applications. You know, you have the people that are just kind of hit submit submit submit on all these different sites and then you have people that do a formal letter and you know, really put some effort into it. Um, so it's but we in order to score them and all that, you have to go through all of them. So we're kind of seeing the same thing. We have a lot of I mean it's graduation right now. A lot of people are buzzing to get um to get uh some job experience. We have a lot of educators that are trying to, I think, make a shift um to a different career, a lot of federal employees that have applied, but yeah, employees who have recently lost their jobs. I don't No, I think just, you know, maybe are looking for a change as well. I mean, they don't say that on their application that they lost their jobs, so I don't know. But um so yeah, so we're in but I think we're still hopeful that between this new round and a couple that have been in the first round, we'll find we'll have someone just off the I'll talk to you later. I'd love to talk to you right up there. So what was what was the difference in the not in the application process but where you advertised? You used a different ATA. We the first round we used our traditional U methods. I think um main municipal, Indeed, LinkedIn um there might have been one other, but I believe they're traditionally the either free or least expensive. We use

the American Planning Association this round, which did cost us a little bit of money, but it's a focus group. Um so that's the difference. And the target date for having this person on or is it just whenever we can? Yeah, I think it's, you know, kind of high or slow just to make sure we get the right fit. Okay. Our economic development uh director is going to be starting uh the 1 of June. So, she'll be able to come on board, maybe take some um pressure off the planning department, the planning department um as you know, on some of the projects. But yeah, I mean, we don't want it to go on too long without some relief for Britney. I got another month or two in me. She's been a real trooper. I mean, she's done all of this with a big smile on her face. So, I can't say enough about that and thank her for her great attitude with this transition. I have a lot of great support. So, it's we'll get there. Uh process on planning board members. Uh new planning board members. We spoke and selected our I don't know if you need that there. Probably little voice. Um, so we do you want me to describe the whole process or? No, just where we're at now. We do have one applicant behind it. The uh two applicants that are going to fill the alternate positions will be recommended to council at the next council meeting on May 17th. And once that's approved through them, then they'll be able to start serving on the planning board for next month. Do we need to have any discussion and andor vote by this body? None. Okay. You want to say you're getting done? Okay.

So, um June the June council meeting is where um all the appointments are made to I believe. Or is it the May? Yes. Because all the you know there's typically the terms end in June. So, we're right up at the end of the fiscal year where those new appointments are made. I'm sorry, just out of curiosity because I really don't know. Does this body have any input or oversight comment on those people who might be selected? Um, at this not as a whole body. No, no. Or individuals like the chair. We did a hiring or not a hiring but like a appointment committee that did con have some planning board members on it. Excellent. Okay. So there's some and Britney's also in the process of of setting up a formal process that over the past couple years I mean the process has kind of changed from year to year. So we'll have a more formal written okay this is how we select somebody. Okay. Great. And they changed the next meeting, right? Yes. Yes. People know that. Yeah. On the first Thursday instead of the first Wednesday, right? I will send out the updated calendar to everyone, too. Um, and what's going on on the Tuesday? What was the purpose in the change? A Wednesday. So, Wednesday is the annual HCPC planning meeting. um which a few of us are attending. Um so it was a conflict of scheduling and it was just easier to push ours u the planning board to the next day. So not a huge change just and I'll make sure to send out reminders everyone doesn't confuse the dates and

we all show up on the same on the right day that month. So, thank you all for being accommodating for that schedule change. Appreciate it. That's it. Make a motion for adjournment. Motion to adjurnn. Second. Second. Good. Oh.