City Council - Regular Meeting

This meeting of the Oaklair City Council will come to order. Please stand for the pledge of allegiance. I aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for it stands. One nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Uh, city clerk, please call the role. Council member Bruce, here. Gregor, here. Johnson here. President Miller here. Reed here. Sean here. Serrano here.

Worth here.

All right. Hello. Welcome everybody to the uh Tuesday, April 28th uh meeting of the Oaklair City Council. This is our legislative uh session. And I do want to read a brief statement um you know uh before we be begin our legislative session this afternoon. Uh I would like to address the announcement u made today that our city manager Stephanie Hirs uh is resigning from her position after four years of service uh for our community. Uh and I want to thank Stephanie for her tireless dedication um to our community and uh and her desire to care for for our city. Um Stephanie's incredible love for her hometown of Oaklair was a gift to every resident of our community. Uh deputy uh city manager Dave Soulberg uh will serve as acting city manager and can respond to immediate needs of internal and external partners. Uh and we have, you know, many great opportunities ahead of us as a city. and you know some of those items are on our agenda tonight uh to move forward and um it's time uh you know to get get to work on on our agenda. So thank you. I um first want to begin with our uh consent agenda which um some folks in the in the audience you know may be here for that. Uh it's items number 1 through 14 uh in the agenda and and if folks you know don't have a copy there there are copies in the back of the room of our agenda or there there should be copies left. Um but basically it's like the first two pages of our agenda. So um so so please know that if if your item um you know was one of those like after the the vote on the

consent agenda it is um you're free to to leave the meeting but you're also welcome to stay but that those items have moved forward and and that is unless a council member uh or council members like want to remove any items from the consent agenda and council member uh Emboga do you have any items? Yeah, thank you council president. I would like to move agenda 14. Okay. So for so for separate consideration. Okay.

Thank you. Yeah, we can address that one separately. So are there any other items that that council would like to remove for separate uh consideration from the items 1 through 14 on the consent agenda? Okay. Okay. Well, I think we should take up, you know, the all the items um with the exception of 14 um as a consent agendum item. So, um so on a on a motion uh by council member Serrano uh seconded by council member Brewster uh the consent consent agenda has been moved with with minus the item 14. Um is there any discussion? Okay. Um, seeing no. Oh, well, there is just waiting to vote. Sorry.

Okay. Um, so seeing none, city clerk, please call the role on the consent agenda. Council member Brewster, I. Gregor, I. Johnson, I. Himoga. I. Miller. I. Otto. Hi. Reed. I Toronto. Hi. I

Okay. And that and the consent agenda has passed unanimously. Um and now we we'll move on to item 14, which is uh resolution cancelling the city council meeting scheduled for Monday, May 25th, 2026. Um and council member, would you like to speak to that?

Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Council President. the the for the last four years I've been a city council we have been this agenda has been on the business agenda just from legal point of view I want to ask our city attorney why today is on the consent agenda city attorney Nick

yeah consent or business agenda is really not a legal distinction you're approving all of them it's just whether the item becomes routine. And I guess kind of by your question, this item has become routine. It's a Monday that's falling on a a national holiday on on Memorial Day. So, uh, most operations and businesses are closed, including city hall. So, we're putting it in front of you to cancel it because our ordinance otherwise calls for that meeting to be held. So, it's up to city council whether uh you care to hold it or not. But since you routinely cancel this one, uh if and when it falls on Memorial Day and also typically the second uh meetings in December that are on or near uh holidays, uh they show up on your agenda to take that action.

Okay. Um thank you for that. Um the um so on a motion by um council member Worthman and seconded by council member Miller uh this item is moved. Is there any discussion on item number 14 on on cancelling our meeting on May 25th? Okay. Thank you. Um so seeing no uh discussion on that um city clerk please call the role. Council member Greger I. Johnson I Miller I

Reed I Sh I Serrano I Worthman I Brewster I

Okay. Uh so that item uh passes unanimously. Thank you. Um so now we're on to the business agenda. So number item number 15 is a resolution approving the 2026 2030 energy future collaboration work plan. And uh we have planner uh KSMA here uh to present on that item. Thank you so much. Hey, good afternoon, council members. Um, with me, I also have uh Julie Tony from Excel Energy here to help me present um and answer any questions that you all have about the work plan. So, we're here to present about the energy future collaboration work plan. Um, this is between the city of Oaklair and Excel Energy and the purpose is to advance our shared energy goals. Um, hi. So, what are those goals? Um, so the city of Oaklair has they're looking to achieve carbon neutrality for the municipality and the community by 2050 as well as 100% renewable energy for municipal operations and the community by 2050. Um, and Julie if you want to speak to Excel's goals.

Sure, I can do that. Um, and of course Excel Energy has our um, goals across our entire company uh, to have carbon-f free electricity by 2050. And then we also have our goals to have uh net zero natural gas uh uh by 2050 as well. So,

okay. And then um I think of of importance to note is that Excel Energy and correct me if I'm wrong Julie, but you were the first utility in the country to announce a goal of 100% carbon-f free by 2050. So, uh just a extra note there. Um so with these shares shared goals the city of Oaklair and Excel Energy they've realized that the best way to achieve these goals is through mutual understanding and collaboration. Um so in that spirit the two parties on October 8th 2019 entered into an energy future collaboration. Um and thatou is meant to guide public officials such as yourself, city staff and Excel Energy in implementing our shared goals and visions. um and projects as well. So, theou is in your council packet tonight and although it's not something we'll be able to discuss um it is in there for reference. So, theou um in order to implement it, it calls for the development of a work plan and that is specifically to outline deliverables. Um the first work plan is was covered the time period of 2021 to 2023. Um and it had some very notable successes and I'll just cover those briefly. Um but the first is um it played a hand in the sonnet tag center. So the work plan called for leveraging investments pledged by the city for the event center to provide clean energy operational savings and resiliency. Um and then a second notable project is um the work plan called for collaboration on evaluations of options to use largecale solar resources uh specifically local solar resources to support our renewable energy goals um and those goals of community partners. So um the Chipoa Sun solar project was developed and the city as well as UWC

and Pablo group are all subscribers to that project. Um anything you'd like to add? I you know I'm not sure. Oh, okay. Well, you covered it really well, but that's the idea of this whole thing is how we can work together over these years to kind of lay out on the work plan things that we can look at together and then as as different things or new technologies or new things on either of our parts come up, we can work together and try to do what we can to to make either the whole community better or to identify certain pockets where we can help them together promote certain programs or anything like that. So, it's been working really well.

All right. So, we've been working to update the work plan um to cover the time period from 2026 to 2030. And um oh, I should advance the slide. Thank you. And so, city staff as well as staff and leadership from Excel Energy has collaborated to uh to update the plan. Um the plan is in the council packet so you can see all of the the great potential projects we have. Uh but topics include and I won't go over all of these but community development, equity, um data access and transparency. We have things about new tech. So a lot of exciting projects to look forward to. Um and then the last thing to note is that SAC has been involved uh with the work plan. They've reviewed drafts, provided input and approval ultimately on April 15 of 2026. So, um, we're looking for your approval this evening, and if you have any questions, we'd be happy to take those.

Awesome. Thank you so much, uh, you both for being here and for the presentation. Are there any questions from council? Uh, council member Worthman.

Thank you, council president. Um, and thank you for ongoing work. I know this has been a lot, so for being here this evening. Um I wanted to ask about the electric vehicle charging program. Um, and I think especially given, as I understand it, that Excel Energy is going to renew efforts to try to strengthen state policy, probably public um, through the public service commission policies to advance um, more residential charging infrastructure in the coming five years. And I just want to get your take on does this language here. I know it focuses a lot on city operations and city vehicles um fleet, but also I see here this 10% registered EVs um goal that we have as an entire community. And I want to be sure that we're in a place where we can support Excel Energy as a community if in fact and when those um kinds of policies are advanced.

I can take that. Um I think agreed 100% and advocacy is certainly part of something that we work on all the time and I think we work on that together whether um we're at things like the Chipo Valley rally together or um each of us in our own separate legislative efforts. Um the the the plan itself is meant to be kind of all-encompassing. So, I would say that last bullet, explore additional ways to support transportation electrification goals, could encompass things like that. Um, if you really feel that that's not specific enough, we could possibly consider adding another bullet that specifically talks about working on advocacy together. I don't see an issue with that either. So, I think it can be covered under that bullet, but if you feel strongly we could um have staff bring that back and work on it before you approve. So, does that help? Yeah, I I'm I guess that's kind of for the entire body to decide, but I'm excited to know that

Excel is looking at how to reinstate some of the the charging um rebates and programs like um offering kilowatt hour um incentives for homeowners with electric vehicles. Like some of those things have gone away, but I'm excited to know that Excel also wants to go back into that in the coming years. And so I just want to be sure that we're prepared to to support to support and help and help lift that to the public service commission if and when it happens.

Right. One other thing to remember here in Wisconsin that kind of ties into that is a lot of the residential incentives though come through focus on energy not directly from the utilities themselves. So although we're intimately involved with that in some of the other states where the regulatory atmosphere is different not the focus on energy model we are directly involved with that but indirectly we also work very much with focus on energy and um helping to suggest or be part of some of the efforts that they have. So um definitely something we can all work on together encouraging at a state level that they um start adopting those programs uh a little bit more again. So yeah thank you. Yep. Yeah. Thank you. Um, Council Member Brewster for a question.

Thank you, Council President. Um, I just wanted to just a small tiny little piece of clarification on um, Excel's uh, 2050 plan uh, net zero gas. Is that just achieved with offsets? Is that or is there a question? No, that's a fair question and um I I can provide more details on that at some point, but it really is to make our natural gas system cleaner all the way around. So natural gas kind of has two pieces. The actual natural gas itself is made up of methane. So strengthening our system itself at the at the points where um things may um evaporate whether it's uh actual joints or border town border stations or or at people's meters or whatever. So tightening and strengthening that system to um not have any methane leaks or you know that type of thing to be less uh and then to also make sure that we are supplying more clean gas by purchasing that or getting that from cleaner suppliers who are also working on the same thing. The other piece of that is to help educate our customers because that's where the carbon piece comes in. when natural gas is burned, then that's what makes carbon, if that makes sense. So, educating people on either ways to be more efficient so it avoids that that burning or that pollution or helping educate on ways to um support electrification as time goes on. That's also another way. So, does that help?

Okay, you bet. Okay, we're still in the just the question phase here. Um, so I do have a question actually about um, you know, just the the work plan does have, you know, a couple things in it that are that we've been maybe working on for a while that are challenges.

Like one of them being under electric vehicles, electric bus charging is referenced. And then on the next page there's under efficiency there's I guess it's the fifth bullet point down there's a reference to energy management software and building automation systems. So, I just kind of wanted to throw out those more those things that we are aspiring to do perhaps and like my question would be like where are we at on those or like what do you see what do you foresee as being possible in the next five years like with technology and like budgets in mind?

Sure. So I can um in terms of the buses, so we have uh three two electric vehicles in our fleet. I think a third as well. Um they're not buses. So in order to electrify the buses that I I spoke with our transit director today, it would take a lot of research to make sure that it's a good investment. Um but this is looking at just upgrades to the city's CMS CMF um the central maintenance facility to prepare for the possibility of bus charging. Um so I think and it's it's really just about exploring it looking into opportunities and making sure that like even if we can't do it today if an opportunity presents itself we can take advantage of it. Um, and I think the best way to do that is to get it on both of our radars so we can leverage some shared expertise with Excel. Um, in terms of the building automation, it's kind of the same. Um, we we don't have uh an energy manager for our buildings. Um, so we don't at this time have a a large staff to support building automation. Um, and and the undertaking that it would be to get that set up. Uh but again, you know, if it's something on the radar, if funding were to come available or there was any kind of opportunity that we could take advantage of, um it's, you know, good to have it in writing and good for us to start exploring it where we can.

You could mention the internship that funding. It's not quite that, but it's the um data part of it. Yep. Working together on that. That's a good point. You want to ask? I was just going to mention so along those lines, not so much the actual EMS systems or the energy management, sorry, systems for the buildings, but some of the data processes that come out of of the city's energy use and things like that. Um, we are actually helping fund an intern coming up so that the city is able to do some more of that work. So, again, looking at opportunities and ways we can work together to help everyone move forward. So,

all right. Well, thank you. Unless there are any other questions, we can move this item. Um, so yeah, thank you. I think I think you've answered the questions for now. Okay. Appreciate you being here and thank you presenting.

Um, so uh by a motion made by council members Shan or Vice President Shonen and Council Member Emboga, uh, this item is moved. Um and is there any discussion on the work plan? Okay. So just so uh council member Worthman. Thank you council president. Um just want to want to thank um Excel and the city staff um our sack uh sustainability advisory committee for multiple iterations of of looking at this and working on this. Uh I know a lot has gone into it. Um I think at this point the electric vehicle section is high level enough that I think if there are efforts to once again offer or advocate for state policies or PSC or um focus policy to support more electric vehicles in our community. Um I think this allows us as a council to be engaged on that whether we do resolutions or things like that. I think this allows for that. So, I'm not going to make an any additional um amendment to this. Um I do think it's important to point out though that this 10% registered EV's goal for a community, that's a lot. And that's a lot over the next 5 years. So, um, if we're going to meet that, and I think we should be working on trying to trying to meet that, it's going to take some of those programs that help people see the value of of switching from gas driven to hybrid or or fully electric. It's going to take it's going to take programs and incentives to help do that. And some of it as simple as helping to retrofit your garage with a charger and the all the you know, it can be $500 to retrofit your garage to be able to plug in your vehicle. that's a cost that people, you

know, could have some support with. So, I'm hopeful that this offers enough for that. Um there is one piece of this that's missing and I don't entirely know how this where this would go but that is around AI data centers and this is going to be a huge topic coming up for us in this this year and it relates to the energy but also like thinking about fairness and energy and how do we as a community also look out for our residents and their and their utility bills while working with Excel on their goals. Um, I think that's a piece that's missing here, but we don't have a policy yet on AI data centers and how that's going to work, but it it has a huge electrification u component to it obviously. Um, and this plan does not speak much to that more specific need and so we may need to revisit this when we have a full policy and we have an idea of where we want to go.

Um, but I just wanted to bring that up as well. Okay. Thank you. Um, Council Member Miller. Thank you, Council President. Um, I just want to also like council member Worthman thank uh Zach and Excel and the city working together. Uh, just want to point out when the city council first took up the goal of um, carbon neutrality by 2050 back in 2018. Um, it's worthwhile to have lofty long-term goals because 2050 from 2018 is 32 years. But now we're eight years later, so we're already a quarter of the way there. Um, so I just want to see us as a community continue to make lofty long-term goals because time passes and we're, you know, we're a quarter of the way there already. So, I appreciate the continued uh work towards these goals. Thank you, um, Vice President Shonne.

Thank you, Council President. Um, I, like my colleagues, want to thank you, thank all the parties that, um, assisted in creating this plan and spent time drafting it and bringing it forward to council for consideration. One of the things I was most impressed by, which I was going to comment on. I had it noted um but it came up during questions anyways was the fact that Excel is uh interested in directly supporting the city through an intern. I think that's really worth noting and it's something that I don't see very often in these types of work plans. And so I just wanted to call that out specifically and thank Excel for that type of direct support. I think that's rare and important. Um and I really appreciate our partners being willing to directly collaborate with us that way. All right. Thank you. Um, any other discussion? Let's see. I guess I would just like to say I mean one of the things that I saw in the actually going back to the original agreement, there's a section on regional collaboration and I think that kind of goes back to some of the things that have been raised about data centers, how we need to work together as a region around that. And I know that there's other communities in our region that are members of the same program in partnership through Excel like I believe city of Monomony maybe. But um and I'm meeting with their mayor next week. So we'll see how we can collaborate regionally in that sense. But um I think it's a yeah a great program, a great collaboration. So, I do want to move toward uh the uh an actual vote on this since it has been moved and we've discussed it. Uh so, uh city clerk, please call the role.

Council member Johnson, I. Miller I Autumn I Reed I Serrano I Worth I Brewster I

So that passes uh unanimously. Thank you. Uh we our next item is uh item number 16 on the agenda. resolution making an appointment to fill the vacant aldermanic district 2 seat on the Oaklair City Council. And this item is uh postponed from the April 20th uh meeting. Uh and so I will be just kind of presenting on this. Um we so whoever so we have two candidates that are still in the running for this uh that have gone through the application process that th those names are Shelley Jenkee and Joyce Worth. Um and both have you know we did I guess at the council meeting that I was not at narrow it down uh to them. Um so they have submitted their applications. So those are available in in writing in in our packet and then they also uh contributed videos which are on our our city's YouTube channel which you should definitely subscribe to. Um it's getting getting uh some good attention and uh and then there's uh there was we also have heard from the public you know various communications of of support for very the the options that we have in front of us. So, um, so we do have, you know, this is one of those things where the council, you know, votes to appoint, but we use uh a little bit of a a different uh way of doing it where we actually have little slips of paper that we can pass around. But first, we have discussion. Um, so I will I think I'm ready to move the the um the item so that we can get

into that. Um, so on a motion by uh Council Member Otto and seconded by Council Member Reid, uh this item is moved. Uh is there any discussion around our appointment of uh a candidate for district two? Uh, Council Member Otto,

thank you. I think I I'm not speaking just for myself, but um, personally, we have such excellent candidates, and this is not a choice between the the lesser of two evils, but the the better of two greats, and I'm honored that people think so highly of this institution that such high quality candidates would come forward. So, I appreciate uh both of you for coming forward and stepping up to apply. Council member uh Serrano.

Thank you, Council President Gregor. Um kind of what my colleague uh Council Member Otto echoed, but I have a great appreciation for the patients and the process that everybody has followed here. We had three applicants to start with. They uh submitted their uh written information. Then they were asked to make videotaped um um videotaped statements of both their initial sort of presentation and then answers to uh a set of questions. Uh they've been attending the meetings uh since then. We had you know a postponement on on this decision. So, I really want to thank them for the time and energy that they've already put into this and uh and uh really really appreciate uh appreciate their their putting themselves forward.

Yeah. Thank you, Council Member Serrano. Is anyone else like to speak? I we have a couple of us that weren't at that meeting, too. So, um yeah, and just to clarify too a little bit further, the um the candidate will need six votes because that's a majority of our our body here. Um so, anyone else have anything they want to share about the candidates or the decision in front of us? Um, so I actually have a couple little notes. So I, um, so I had the opportunity obviously to, to watch the videos and read the materials and everything. Um, I think, you know, one of the the most important things for me is the the fact that this is a district seat and it requires um, a lot of constituent services. I I feel like, you know, I obviously at large members provide a lot of that for folks, but there it kind of gets honed down onto the neighborhood level or onto the district level there that where it is a lot of work and it's a huge commitment. So, we appreciate that we have folks that want to step up in their neighborhoods and their districts uh to do that. Um, and I think f familiarity with the district and all the intricacies, you know, will will come with the job, but like there's a lot of benefit to, you know, having, you know, spent time in the city or in that district as well. Um, and I feel like for me the the candidate that stands out the most is Joyce Orth just because I feel like the focus on service and communication and really like supporting a um, yeah, just a yeah, just being a part of

a team that is supporting like a an entity for so many years like like the school district in Altuna and just so many of the other um experiences is just like really really is important to me and like really um helps me lean in that direction. Although it's like I feel like both candidates are extremely qualified and just like I'm very grateful as as the rest of the council, you know, has expressed that we have such um such a hard choice ahead of us here. So, um, so yeah, happy to hear from others. Um, those are sort of my initial thoughts if there's any other input from anybody.

I have a Oh, yeah. Council member Emboga. Thank you, council. Council President, we are 10 today. So, if we are a tie, what would happen is Steve? Yeah. Um, city attorney Nick,

if if and when, Larry. So, how we take a vote first, Council Member Emboga, and then then then we'll see. Let me spend all my legal thinking on hypotheticals. But, um, again, you can take as many votes as you want. You have to get to six. I'll be handing out ballots here in a little bit. Reminder that you need to put your name on top because these are not secret ballots. will be kept and be read of and then fill in the candidate name either for uh orth or Jankee just I'm going to quickly go to council member uh Miller and then yeah thank you

thank you I was going to say since we are at full body again I call the question and move to the vote

okay thank you yeah and I I did just want to clarify one other thing um and that is that the uh whoever is appointed would you know their first council meeting would be May 11th but they could be sworn in before that and take office and take on the responsibilities uh or could you know take the oath of office earlier um so they can get to work and there's plenty of work to do um so thank you for calling into questions so um that would be just um our city attorney handing out the ballots at this point. Yeah. Thank you.

Council member Reed Orthoga Jenkee Shown Orth Johnson Miller Jenkey Orman Orth Brewster Orth Serrano Orth. So that is seven for Orth and three for Jen. Okay. Thank you uh city clerk. And so that vote was yeah seven to three uh in support of Joyce Orth. Uh, and I uh, so I think I could probably just move directly to do something.

I'll make a motion to resolution. Okay. Yeah. Microphone. I'll make a motion to amend the resolution to include the name of Joyce Orth for council vacancy. I'll second that. Okay. So, with a motion by or amendment motion by council member Worthman, seconded by council member Brewster, um we'll have a vote to complete the resolution. Um uh clerk, please call the role. Or is that council member? I. Miller, I. Otto, I. Reed I

show I Serrano I Worthman. Hi Brewster. I Johnson. Hi. All right. Well, that passes unanimously. Congratulations uh uh Joyce uh to your appointment to district two and uh we will be in touch. Thank you so much. I have a point of order. Uh yep. Uh, and perhaps a question for our city attorney. Because of the the process in which council member Worthman and Brewster brought that forward to amendment to the resolution, we still need to vote on the actual resolution. Yeah. So, it sounds like we do. Yeah. I um

Yeah. I Reed. I Serrano. I Rooster. I Gregor I Johnson I Boga I

All right, that passes unanimous unanimously in its finality there. So thank you for the correction. Um so we will move uh forward uh to the next agenda item number 17. This is a resolution authorizing the city manager to enter into a memorandum of understanding and agreement regarding operation and maintenance of the stormwater detention facility located within an existing utility easement in the plat of Forest Glenn Estates. And we have uh Director Nest from our engineering department here uh to present on that item. Thank you.

Good afternoon, council. Uh, in August of 2018, the city of Oaklair Council approved a final plat and subdivision infrastructure agreement with Forest Glenn Estates. It was formerly known as Westover Woods. Um, just off of Westover Road and west of State Street. Uh, the provisions within that included a utility easement for a storm water facility that was to be dedicated to the city. That facility was designed to handle the storm water related to that development, but also designed to handle storm water uh related to Glenn uh Forest Glenn Court, the the roadway and the runoff from the public right ofway. Theou that is before us outlines the operation and maintenance related to that storm water detention facility. Um, this is aou that is new to council and new to the city, but it will become kind of a a standardou moving forward with subdivision infrastructure agreements and our storm water facility to help us meet our MS4 compliance uh regulations and requirements. So, I am presenting this to you tonight uh in a more formal um uh way, but moving forward, you'll probably see these on your consent agenda. um just to uh as there's going to be quite a few of them moving forward I believe uh and as we identify and make improvements to existing ponds public and private uh we'll have related to those facilities to help us u meet those MS4 requirements. So uh with this if there's any questions related to theou I can take those questions.

Yeah. Thank you. Uh, director Nesser, uh, we have a question from, uh, Council Member Otto. Thank you, Council President Gregor. Uh, just looking at the title of the resolution, um, it mentions city manager. Is it safe to assume given the recent changes that interim city manager means the same thing? Um, I would defer to uh, city attorney Nick on that. Yes, you you have a city manager whether it's you know acting the we update names whether it's you know council president's changing or city manager is changing. So uh no need to change the resolution in that regard.

Okay. Thank you. Um any other questions from councel? All right. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Um, and by a motion uh made by council members uh Serrano and seconded by council member Brewster, uh, this item is moved. Is there any discussion? Okay. Um, uh, seeing none, city clerk, please call the role. Council member Otto I Srano I Worman I Rooster I Gregor

I Johnson I Invoka I Miller I All right and that item passes unanimously. All right. So, the next item is number 18. Uh resolution approving an extending the employment agreement of the city manager and we have um we do have our um HR director repull here. Uh but I feel like we could also entertain a motion. Um so, Council Member Miller. Thank you, uh Council President. Uh, I would move to postpone this item indefinitely.

Okay. I um Is there a second to that? Sounds Sounds like that was from Council Member Johnson sent a second. Um, so is there any discussion on the postponement? Okay. Uh, clerk, please call the role. Council member Reed. I shown I Serrano. I Brewster. I Gregor. I Johnson. I Miller. I Otto. Hi.

And that item was uh postponed indefinitely. So thank you. Um our next item is agenda item 19. Resolution authorizing the city manager to enter into a development agreement with ABF Ingredients North America Incorporated regarding city support of our new manufacturing of a new manufacturing facility in the Gateway Northwest Industrial Park and and presenting is uh Director White. Welcome.

Thank you, Council President Gregor and council members. Uh earlier this afternoon, I did receive a forwarded email from a resident sent to the council uh with additional seven questions uh related to the project and it was asked that if we could address those, it' be possible. So, I'm uh didn't have time to send this out ahead of time. So, I have the seven questions here and I will respond with the responses for each of those questions uh before we carry forward. The first question was specific where specifically will the facilities water be sourced from and what is the current available capacity? Uh the only fil the OIE facility will draw from the municipal water system uh at a rate of 200 gallons per minute or excuse me 200,000 gallons per day. Uh the over system the overall system capacity of the city is approximately 20 million gallons per day. And I'd point out that that is the physical structure capacity. That is not the aquifer capacity which is this is a fraction of the aquifers capacity. This is simply how much we are built out and able to handle a treat and pump in a day. Um, and the average use is currently 9.5 million. That sees a spike to the 14 million gallon per day range during the summer when we're watering lawns and filling swimming pools, etc. Um, this number represents 1% of our overall treatment capacity or of our overall pumping capacity and 2% of our available capacity and is aligned with the resolution passed by council in 2023 governing water use by industrial users. The second question um what is the total expected daily wastewater discharge volume at each of the three phases and what are the bods the total suspended solids and pH characteristics um we don't have the individual phase numbers so I'll reiterate the total wastewater discharge from the project at full buildout uh 199,000 gallons per day the city wastewater treatment facility has approximately 12 million gallons per day of overall capacity and is currently averaging about 7

million gallons per day of use. So there are about 5 million gallons per day of available capacity within the treatment center. Um I did not pull out the the BOD or actually I'll specify uh this discharge volume is about 1.7% of the overall percent of the overall capacity of the plant and about um 2.8% of the available capacity left that is unused within the facility. The uh utilities department has reviewed the BODS which is your your um bioxygenation densities. Uh the total suspended solids which is TSS and PH balance. Um they've reviewed it a number of times by our chemists and our specialists within the utilities department. It is well within the parameters of our facility to handle. Requires no upgrades, no changes in operation of any kind. This is actually it sounds like large numbers but it's actually a minimal volume of increase based on our overall capacity for water and sewer. The third question was has the Oclair's municipal wastewater treatment plant been independently assessed for its capacity to absorb this additional load? Who pays for upgrades if needed? Um city utility staff reviews this. Our our division chemists and biologists and technicians are more familiar with this facility than anybody else. Um so they reviewed the capacity as it is. The city does go through periodic reviews of their facility capacity to plan for growth by outside consultant. The last one was done I believe in the 10 to 15 year range ago. Um the consultant made a number of recommendations to be implemented over time in phases to keep up with projected city growth. The city is on a plan to implement these changes and phase growth patterns as they progress and they have kept up with the schedule to this point. So they are planning for future growth and future capacity based on independent recommendations that are done periodically um and confirming that there will be no

upgrades to the facility in any way to handle the discharge from this project. The only upgrades you'll see is just the typical um mainline water and sewer extensions that would serve any type of project. And these are not facility upgrades. They're just simply additional piping to handle the flow from a new site. The fourth question was what contractual obligations require the company to install and maintain on-site pre-treatment systems if discharge exceeds municipal standards. Oie will have to submit their application to the industrial pre-treatment program. It's required of all industrial projects. It identifies the volume of their discharge, what is contained in their discharge. It will be reviewed by the city utilities department and they will be required standards to be met to meet the pre-treatment if needed. And that is a standard project that has to go by any industrial project in the community. So this is a a standard process that every industrial project has to go through. Number five, what odor mitigation measures are required by the development agreement and are they enforceable? Has an independent environmental impact assessment been completed and made available for the public review. Um we have not done an independent environmental impact assessment as it was defined there. The site was evaluated through a phase one environmental analysis, a wetlands delineation, and endangered species determination. All well prior to advancing to this stage of the project. Um, Ollie will be required to comply with all state regulations required emissions that govern emissions releases through the DNR for any manufacturing facility in the state. Uh, and they will also have to meet all of our zoning standards as regards to light pollution, noise control, etc. Um again after um touring the facility in the Hamburg we've we've witnessed firsthand that this is a company that is responsible in their operation sustainable in their operation and strives to be a good corporate citizen. This facility in Hamburg 100 ft from a residential facility and in the middle of a huge

metro area controls and contains all of its operations within its facility. So it is in line with what should be seen in a light industrial park. Um I also did some measuring um when referenced about residential units. Um the residential neighborhoods are in to the east uh 4,700 feet according to our GIS map. So about 3/4 of a mile away or about 3/4 of a mile away to the north to the west um miles away from the nearest um single unit and about the same to the south. So there is a sizable buffer within this industrial park around there. and we anticipate no issues from uh any type of emissions or smell or odor that would be offensive to the the housing that is in that area. Number six, um what protection exists for Oaklair if the company proceeds with phase one but not phase two or three leaving a partially built industrial campus on 70 acres of city land. Um I did want to clarify the land is owned by a 501c3 um nonprofit corporation board that's governed by three members and it is owned separately from the city. they make their own standalone decisions on the land. If phase one is the only phase that is completed, the contract, the DA does provide for specific um re re uh enumeration in terms of a penalty fa fee of $200,000 to cover what would have been their share of the venture drive extension utilities based on the frontage of their property on that shared services. They would be required to pay that back to the city. They would own the site. uh it would be still taxed and assessed as a industrial site of 70 acres with u 14 million in improvements and a guaranteed value on the front stage of or in the phases of of stage one. It would be up to the company as the owner to develop or redevelop or spin off the balance of the space within that industrial park. Um the drought number seven was are there drought or climate contingency

provisions? Who bears the cost if regional availability is contained or is constrained or future for in future decades? Um that is also addressed as well. Subse or section 9 sub paragraph D addresses the issues of the city's powers to protect our residents in the event of water shortage. Um it identifies they have police and emergency powers that preserve life and ensure that water for our residents is paramount and forward in the um process of addressing water some sort of a water critical shortage whether it's to a climatic weather event or some other unforeseen catastrophe. It does provide some options to provide to allow or for the city to work with the um property owner to maybe look for a a well- drilled or some sort of alternate water source for their site. But it is up to this legislative body to be able to determine and ultimately prescribe and vote what would be appropriate assistance and what would be an appropriate direction to help them find some alternative uh water uses should an unforeseen catastrophe occur that it limits our availability of water. So those were the seven questions that were brought before us. Um we're happy to answer any answer any additional questions if the council has any that were not addressed last night. We do have two members of the team are here. the gentleman who were at last night. Be happy to answer any questions as well.

Yeah. Thank you, uh, Director White. Are there any questions from council? Can uh, Vice President Shan,

thank you, Council President Gregor. Um, I did have one question and I I know we talked last night a little bit about um some of the concerns we heard from constituents and community members um around the this specific development itself um which was great and I'm wondering one of the questions that I think maybe remains for some people in the community is just the process and feeling like this came about really quickly. So, I'm wondering, Director White, if you might be able to help um just for the sake of everyone in council chambers and council um understand sort of the typical uh pace and process and how these types of developments unfold.

Absolutely. So, these come through um or this particular project came through as a lead from the Wisconsin Ecomi Development Corporation. Um their process is to uh submit for an RFP. you they give a a rough framework of what a company is, what they do, um in very broad terms, some basic capacities that they require for a site, and then the city has or a community that wants to respond has a limited amount of time to put a response in. So, we received the the RFP from the the WDC in October of 2022. Um we put together a proposal to them uh and was submitted. We were selected to start seeing some initial reviews by the by the company's corporate site selector and some of their senior leadership. Um the process typically will see several site visits um where they are analyzing the site. They are providing more information to the communities that have been narrowed down on the list. When you're talking about these types of projects, they can start nationwide. Um, we know that this one started with several states within the Midwest that were all vying and presenting proposals for the same project. Um, criteria went those communities down and then they provide a little more information as they move forward. Um, we still work under a project name uh until um a community reaches a point where they are a likely candidate or one of the very final candidates. Then we learn who the company is and we'll start be able to do some internal due diligence. WDC has a an NDA that is signed to go along with these to help protect the identity of the company. And again, there's there's a number of reasons why you see NDAs signed. Um, oftentimes they're in a very competitive environment and their competitors finding out where they're looking at, what they're doing could have very negative impacts on their ability to conduct business. In the case of Oly, you have another um issue is that they have an existing small facility. uh when a company's existing

facilities find out, hey, they're looking at other communities, suddenly are people worried about their jobs and they it creates a whole slew of internal issues with another existing site. Um the NDA was reviewed by our legal department and we made adjustments to the NDA language from the state to ensure that conforms to municipal law and then we proceed forward with the the review process. This project did have a a longer gap. It was related to another project site in another area that had to have some issues resolved related to construction that saw this kind of take a a step back for a time period. Um once they resolved those issues and we're at the point where we can move forward, um we moved into starting to communicate and talk about what the final deal would look like on this space. Um we did have in this case we had two close sessions with council to get governance and guidance from council on the negotiation parameters of this project. Um so that helped formulate what we put together in terms of the DA. Um there were uh there's still a lot of vetting process goes through. The state does a vetting process. We look and and vet out at a local level as well. um a lot of looking and reconfirming the data, what their waist streams are, what their water usage are, what their power usages are to just really confirm that the site meets their requirement. Um these are very long processes. These are long periods of time. I've I've not worked one less than a year in terms of a large project industrial expansion and that one was considered very fast. This is definitely the longest one I've ever worked on in my career uh at three and a half years, but this is not an unknown process. And then u we work with the company on the front end. Um looking to see how they want to notice the community, you know, when we we let them know that when the public notice comes forward and it goes before council for any type of decision, they will be revealing who they are. Not just an LLC. We've seen that with data center projects and LLC that's carried, but we would reveal who Oolie is, who ABF

Ingredients North America is, and identify who the company is and what they're about. Um so we worked with them and our team to to um help this craft out how to release that on the forefront of there. It was again on a very kind of a shorter notice. Um a lot of their their time kind of accelerating on the tail end was there were so many delays in the middle that they really needed to advance the project forward once they they had the issues resolved with the construction on their other project and this allowed them to start moving forward and that eventually uh sees us coming here. The land agreement deal is done separately as I had mentioned last night. It's done through the the board uh through the Gateway Industrial Park Board. They have approved that land grant deal and it's contingent on this going forward. Uh when council should council approve the project, the land will close under that contract and then they will move forward to to closing uh very quickly and then actually this week is their schedule and then moving forward to start the construction process. Does that answer your question?

Yeah. Thanks, uh, Council Member Worthman.

Thank you, Council President. Um, Director White, I wanted to pick up on that question that Council Member Shan asked, which is for me around how much time the public and the folks uh that we serve have a chance to hear about this project, understand it, be able to weigh in with questions, and have have a um yeah, a better understanding of what all is entailed here. And and I think I'm I'm what I'm struggling with is, you know, we were in close sessions over a three-year period, a couple of them at least. But but the public only necessarily knows as of I think it was last week that this is that this is company is coming. And I I suppose it's a two- bar question, which is on something that is this large, which is, you know, as large as the downtown redevelopment, uh, hey, market landing, bigger probably. Um, is there a reason that we couldn't have more lead time announcing that this was coming forward like we do with an ordinance change or, um, you know, some of our bigger votes where we give two weeks notice or something? Is there a reason that we couldn't do that with more lead time for the community to essentially kind of weigh in and have their perspectives heard? No,

absolutely. That was definitely something that we we talked to the company about and talked to the WC about. Um some of that was their original intent was actually to try and address this process much earlier in the construction year. Um where we're still in the winter time where there's more time to talk and and evaluate and and do some presentations. There were a number of delays for um you know the process going forward on several ends. Um some of them are at the state level with the WDC um the negotiations that we have crafting and putting forward the DA. It pushed the timeline much closer in the construction window. So when they need to go they're they're trying to be able to get in the ground still in this calendar year. So definitely tighten that up. It's something that we are are we make strong suggestions and and we learned a little more from this project as well. So we'll look to try and better refine our processes and and try and work on a more front-loaded way to present these. Would welcome any ideas from council as well. Um to some extent we we again we do have to um follow the the terms of the NDA that was signed with the WDC. though we are we have clear areas in which we can move forward that are mandated um as a municipality and local government but it's a process that we're trying to get better at to see how to accommodate some of these issues that we have. It's it's always a balancing act to try and figure strike a balance to make sure that the community hears and sees about it in a timely manner.

Thank you. Uh any other questions from council? just have a question kind of related to that and that's you know we have a sustainability advisory committee that you know obviously um a lot of the pieces of this that were discussed were sustainability related and um obviously they have a work plan that we approve and everything but how do you see the sustainability advisory committee potentially being involved in in these types of development agreements or these decisions in the future. Kind of going off of the question of how how do we involve the public more and earlier?

That's a good question. It's certainly something we can take a look at. Obviously, um a project and depending on the project type, it there may be projects that don't even come forward to council. If they are a project that fits within existing zoning, it becomes a site plan review and approval on site, which is actually done at the plan commission level. And if the project is of the right type, it's administratively approved because of the new zoning LDOS's. Um, we can take a look at where it's good to get input. Um, I think what's helpful is as broader policies defining what industries the community is supportive of, what they'd like to see, what development they'd like to occur, what they what they feel is important to the community in terms of job providers is probably the best guidance that policy groups and organizations can provide. Um that lets us know we we are there's a number of businesses we already you know manufacturers we already avoid automatically. Um we don't pursue anything that traditionally is heavy industrial particularly like bofuels chemical manufacturing those are things that are heavy industrial they have high cost they have high um discharge rates I've I've had projects come forward in other communities where the uh the required admission sheet is four and five pages of what is going out in their waist stream. Um, we don't even respond to projects like that. We get inquiries all the time and we turn them down. We just don't even respond. So, we are taking that into account as the values of the community and what the community like to see. As the city sets policy and defines what that what they like, what they like to see from employers, we can continue to find those broader policies, which means that the companies that we do engage with and start working with are already conforming to some level with direction from council and some of our advisory groups. that might be the the the simplest way to do it. The other concern is always when you talk about volunteer groups and you're talking about very sensitive um potentially corporate secrets, corporate information that is protected. It becomes

challenging when you have groups that are in and out. They're they're not controlled by by you know staff. They're they they they can potentially see information get out that shouldn't get out as well.

All right. Well, thank you. Um, unless there are any other questions, I think we can move this um and move on to discussion. Thank you so much. Uh, so on a um motion by uh council member Worthman and seconded by council member Miller. Um this item is moved. Is there any discussion? Appears that council member Emboga is first. Thank you.

Thank you, Council. Council President, I want to start by thanking Luke Anson, our director White and all the economical department. Thank you. I I I I'm not patient waiting for three years patient. So you guys embrace the the saying which says patient is virtual. You guys should embrace it a lot. Uh I've talked to a lot of people in the community. There's there's appetite for this project and I'm going to support it 100%. For me, I would like because we had one public hearing, I prefer to have to postpone it to next council meeting so that this the city resident would have more saying because of this project is going to have a meaning a meaningful impact for many years to come or for many generation to come.

Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you, uh, Council Member Amoga. Um, yeah, we'll just move on with the discussion to, uh, Council Member Otto.

Thank you, Council President Gregor. Just wanted to address some concerns from some of my constituents regarding, uh, the environment and environmental stewardship. Uh it it makes sense that people would have concerns. We're talking about building a large industrial operation in town and and it's really good that we investigate these environmental concerns and as officials we're trusted with helping ensure clean air, safe water, adequate tree coverage. But to make this stewardship happen, to to build an environmentally sustainable city, it takes revenue. Uh it takes revenue to uh support urban forestry to create walkability and uh foster urban diversity and this project will help bring the revenue we need to be environmental stewards. Uh, you know, I'm very pleased with this company having investigated it and I I agree that it's going to have minimal impact for a company this size and I do think um it it'll be a great fit for our city and help help make it possible to to be the greener, more more walkable, more sustainable community that we want to be. So, for this, I I'm in full favor of of this. Thank you.

Yeah. Thank you, uh, Council Member Otto. Um, and next is Council Member Serrano.

Thank you, Council President Gregor. Um, I really appreciate, again, very thankful for the presentations, the answering the more detailed questions that came in uh since yesterday. Um, uh, it it helps to clarify things in my mind. Um, I uh, personally, couple of things. one and someone mentioned it last night, but I've been thinking about this a lot. When we think about our water treatment and our wastewater treatment capacity and using some of that capacity with a real paying customer, uh what are the impacts of that? I understand people are worried about their rates going up, but in fact, someone made the argument and I can see how the more users you have and the more customers you have for the whole infrastructure of your water treatment and your wastewater treatment actually spreads that cost out more and insulates us more from uh from price increases and cost increases for water and wastewater. So that that and and it seems like we have ample capacity. It's not taking us right up to the edge of like this is the most we can handle. We planned ahead. The city planned ahead, built ahead so that we can have kind of more receptivity to this kind of a a larger uh customer. So that that's one piece on the the the rates um that that strikes me. The other thing is the product itself. I mean I'm I'm not entirely sure of all the specific products that are going to be produced here but my understanding is that uh these are going to be used in um sort of alternative uh food um end consumer food products whether they be for animal feed but also for uh human consump consumption that uh can be as alternatives to um for example

alternative meats and The environmental impacts of the meat industry is not not insubstantial. Uh I'm not here to preach that everybody should be vegan, but it it has there's there are trade-offs there when we if we can have industry that supports alternatives um that that really have I think very valuable uh environmental uh consequences down the road uh in terms of just overall methane production and uh and you know the the the feed for the animals and all of that. that if we can provide alternative sources of of h food for humans and animals um that are are more plant-based um that's that's very interesting and I think that is a a really interesting um industry for us to play in here in Oaklair and I can see how it can create more sort of um adjacent uh businesses and industries to also be coming to a place like Oaklair and in that sense it does seem to really align with our values as a community. So, um those those are two things that um I think um have me actually pretty excited about this this project and uh so that's those are my observations.

Right. Thank you. Um move on to Vice President Shon.

Thank you, Council President Gregor. I'll be brief. Um, others mentioned some of the points that I was going to touch on, but the one thing that stood out to me through this process and the feedback we heard from constituents, which I really appreciate, I actually really love, is that people had such an eye on our water use as a community and are really concerned about that. I agree. I think our natural resources are very precious and we need to be good stewards of them. Um, and I I want to share though, I'm excited to support this development agreement tonight. Um, and in particular as it relates to the water use piece that I just I'm hoping that everybody in the community has comfort around after further discussion. Um, so again talking about 200,000 gallons per day being used, but this company plans to return 199,000 gallons of that per day to the system. So it's unlike other developments that have come to council in the past, it's not extractive, right? We're not talking about taking the water and removing it entirely from the system. um this development will return the vast majority almost all of the water that they're utilizing on a daily basis back to the system. And so I just wanted to emphasize that point and share that I'm excited to support this development.

Okay. Thank you, Vice President Shown. Uh any other um discussion or Council Member uh Embogen I would like to make an amendment like an amendment. Thank you. First, yeah, I would like to to postpon it for two more weeks and we can vote on that. Okay. Thank you. Um, Council Member Boa, there's a a motion to postpone by two weeks to put it on the agenda presumably with a public hearing the night before.

Um, is there a a second? I'll second it. Okay. Um, so we have a second from Council Member Worthman. Uh, is there any discussion on the postponement to two weeks from Yeah. Uh, council member or council member Miller.

Thank you, Council President. Um, I would not be in favor of supporting this. Um, I've received adequate feedback from the community. A lot of people have written in in the amount of time we've had so far and um I think uh all the questions have been answered by staff either here or I've done my best to answer people's questions. Um also um you know city council members were elected to represent the people. Um we're not open democracy which everybody votes all the time. We need to make decisions for the city. I think we have had all all of our questions thoroughly answered and I think we're ready to move forward. Also, I don't want to give any mixed signals to the company that is wanting to build here. If we keep um you know postponing this, this might you know show them that we're not really invested in this proposal. So, I don't see any good reasons. I think um everybody who's had questions has written in had them answered. So, um I will not be supporting a postponement.

Okay. Thank you, Council Member Miller. And I I know we had movers on this too. So I do they want to speak to the to the point a bit more perhaps. Okay. Any other um discussion on the the motion to postpone by two weeks? Okay. Um so clerk could you please call the role on that? Council member Sh. No. No. No. Brewster, no. Gregor, no. Johnson, no.

I Miller, no. Otto, no. Green, no.

All right. And that that motion to postpone fails uh one to nine. Uh so we'll go back to the main uh item uh for discussion. Is there any further discussion on the development agreement? Well, I guess I have a couple things to to share. I mean, I I do understand the concern about as as I think several council members have mentioned that we really don't have a lot of time to engage the public on this and I think the word engagement is is like the word um that it you know we need to I feel like we need to prioritize you know some proactive um ideas and discussion around how to

to have maybe have a longer timeline but maybe we mostly just need to like figure out how to um use the time that we have for for as meaningful engagement as possible with the public and making sure that people are understand what is being proposed because it isn't it is it is not a very long timeline like I had to put I had a lot of put a lot of things aside to be able to to focus on on doing my due diligence on this and I think a lot of other members have to do that and um and it's hard to it's hard for the public sometimes to fully digest these types of major opportunities or proposals. So, especially ones of this magnitude, which really is an incredible uh proposal and and something that really our economic development community and a lot of other aspects of our city and region and our state, you know, were involved with. And I really want to show appreciation for all that work and and um yeah, it's very exciting thing. So, um, if there's no other discussion, uh, clerk, please call the role.

Council member Serrano, Iman, I. Brewster, I. Greor, I, Johnson, I, I, Miller, I, Otto, I, Reed, I

that passes. uh unanimously. Thank you. Congratulations. Um so we have some other items in a different category ordinances for action and uh the first item is number 20. We have ordinance amending table 8 entitled parking prohibited of the code of ordinances of the city of Oaklair to add parking restrictions on venture drive for business access and vehicle maneuverability. And we did have a discussion about this yesterday in presentation from from uh director Ness and she's here again today. So, thank you. Um, let's see if there are any questions before we move into discussion and and a potential vote. Thank you. Director Nes, do you have any more additional information to present?

No additional information and I received no questions related to the item uh since yesterday as well. Okay. Thank you. Any any questions? All right. Uh So on a motion by Vice President Shonne and seconded by council member Embogga, uh this item is moved. Is there any discussion on this parking prohibition? All right, seeing none, uh clerk, please call the role. Council member Worer. Hi,

Brewster. I Johnson. I Miller. I Reed. I Serrano. I.

All right, that passes unanimously. Thank you, city clerk. Uh, one more item under this category is uh item number 21. Ordinance amending specific sections of the code of ordinances of the city of Oaklair titled 17 land development official zoning map and title 19 storm water. And uh yesterday we had a presentation from Mr. uh Noel, our our planning manager. You're welcome to come up if you have any additional information or if council has any questions to share or ask. Uh good afternoon, President Gregor and council members. Yeah, if you have any questions, I know that there's a lot of material there for amendments. Happy to answer any of those questions or clarify. I did want to call out uh we have one additional amendment that we caught kind of last second as a top of bank definition. So that's in your cover sheet, that language.

Okay. Okay. Thank you. Does anyone have any questions for Mr. Noel? Okay. Thank you. Uh so to move I just want to move the item first. That's okay. Uh so the um by a motion from council member Otto and seconded by council member Reid. Uh we uh this item is moved and is there any discussion? Uh council member uh Miller.

Thank you, Council President. Um per recommendation of the plan commission uh I would like to amend this um ordinance to include a missing definition in chapter 17.14.23 top of bank the point at which the slope changes from less than to greater than 20%. And I will second that. Okay. So we have a motion by council member Miller and seconded by council member Rooster on the top of bank amendment. Um, does everybody under fully understand that amendment or have any questions about it or any discussion? I don't understand.

Okay. Do you think we uh Council Member Worthman, did you turn on your microphone, please? Can Can uh can the mover help me understand it? Yeah. So, we have a just a question to from council member Worthman just about um yeah just exp to explain the amendment. Council member Miller.

Thank you, Council President. Um if you look at the cur sheet item that would be on page 111 of the packet um in the background summary and um there's a section where it says the plan commission on April 6 recommended unanimous approval and added a missing definition in chapter 17.14.23 top of bank. So top of bank needs to be defined in these ordinance changes and it was not and but it was caught and per recommendation of staff and the plan commission they recommend adding the definition of top of bank to the section here and that's all I know about this one. I would defer to plan Noel for anything further on that. Well yeah could I council president could I could I have the floor? Council member Worth

I So I'm just trying to understand what I understand this idea that's like okay as soon as it reaches 20%. But for what purposes or when is this used because I if this is about buffers it might make sense to actually provide more of a buffer back from the top of bank or to have a definition that includes yeah more space than just 20%. I guess that's my question is is this definition as inclusive for the reasons that we want?

Yeah. Um I I'll give an example. We had a we we had a development happen. Um when I was on plan commission and top of bank was defined as kind of the place where the slope turned off but um the development wanted to come right to the edge with like um tree clearing and lawnscape. And so actually one of the things our plan commission said is maybe it makes more sense to not um to not go all the way to the top of bank but to actually include enough buffer so that for example runoff from a given development has some buffer zone from the top of bank. So I'm trying to understand like does what does this pertain to? Is this around um is is this the best definition? Okay.

Thank you council member Worthman. Uh uh planning manager Noel, would you like to answer that question, please?

Thank you for the question, Council Member Worthman. And uh yeah, this is actually uh a definition for setbacks. We have additional buffers that you enhance with the LDO uh 75 ft for example. Um and so that would be that could supersede this, but this deals with a building in terms of um our waterway guidelines that we actually uh codified with LDO. So we just missed this actual definition. So it it was something that we already used in the past. We just want to make sure it's folded into our ordinance so that we can use it. Um in the absence of this, we were just using as the policy uh in the last six months, but now we want to actually have it in the code. So that's why we caught it for you. If that helps. Thank you.

Okay. Thank you, U Mr. Noel. And so, is there any other questions or discussion on the amendment? Okay. Clerk, please call the role on the amendment. Council member Brewster. I. Regger. I. Johnson. I. Emboga. I. Miller. I Otto I Srano I

and that passes unanimously. So now we're back to the amended ordinance change large package of work that was put into this. Um any discussion? Any further discussion on that? Okay. Clerk, please call the role. Council member Dre. I Johnson. I Miller. I Otto. I Serrano. Iman. Hi. Rooster. I.

All right. And that passes unanimously. Uh, now we have two items that are uh ordinances for introduction. Um, so unless people want to take action today, they will not be acted upon. Um, so I will just read them. So those are items number 22, ordinance to reszone property from UR and and URP to UC located at 918 926 93 and 936 Monomin Street. Um and so we'll save the any presentation on it until the next meeting. Um and then the next item is um uh item number 23, ordinance amending table one entitled speed limits of the code of ordinances of the city of Oaklair to change the speed limit on Locust Lane from 30 miles per hour to 25 miles per hour. Um, so those items will be on our agenda in two weeks for public discussion on the Monday night before two weeks from today. Uh, and so the next item on the agenda are is announcements and updates. Um so and this is from the the city our acting city manager or from city council. Um I do have one announcement and that's just to clarify for everybody from our earlier discussion that we will not have a council meeting on in a month roughly. Uh the Monday May 25th public discussion was cancelled in the earlier action of the body today. Um, so, so just so folks can cancel that on

their their calendars. Um, does any any other council members, Council Member Miller, you have an announcement?

Yes. Thank you, Council President. Um, on your desks, you should find uh the Oaklair City County Health Department annual report for 2025. Um, I've had the pleasure to serve on the board of health for the city council for the past now going my fourth year. So, um, many of you haven't had the opportunity to serve there, but um, this, uh, this is like just basically a brief look into the day-to-day public health work that's happening around Oaklair County. Um, it's been kind of streamlined and kind of made easier to read. It's less dense, but um, covers more data and there's like some takeaways from each page at the bottom, just information about our community. So, I encourage everybody just to look through this here um and see the work that the board of um sorry, the health department does. Uh it's also available on the website in electronic form.

All right. Thank you, Council Member Miller. Um any and council member. Yeah, I hope I will see you guys tomorrow. The ecom the mang mutual station they have a sexual assault awareness walk 4:30 to 6:30 so people walk from their main office by climouth you walk to Hoon Lake then you go through the lake board walk and back so it's 4:30 to 6:00 tomorrow if you guys you are available thank you okay thank you council member

all All right. Um, so it seems like we're ready for Oh, we have have uh our acting city manager, uh, Soulberg.

U, just a couple of, uh, quick announcements. Again, just to remind everybody that this weekend, um, May 2nd and 3rd is the Oaklair Marathon, uh, with the actual marathon on Sunday the 3. Uh, May 28th, we have eggs and issues with the Chamber of Commerce. Uh, that is going to be the legislative recap, so that's a little over a month off. Um, so, uh, let the manager's office know and we can get you signed up for that if you would like. Um, May 10th, I just want to express, um, happy Mother's Day to all those, uh, mothers out there. Um, well deserving for all they do for, um, those that rely on them and, um, wish them the best on that day. And then I would like to just thank uh outgoing uh city manager Hirsch for her four years of service and um thank her for being a wonderful co-orker and and boss and um I wish her the the best in her endeavors and um wish her continued friendship. So that's all.

Thank you acting city manager Soulberg. All right. Well, without objection, uh, our meeting is adjourned and we do have a work session afterwards. So, thank you all for being here. We will take maybe uh a 10m minute break. Is that okay? Because I think some of the press want to talk about some things. So, so we'll re rejoin in 10 minutes. Uh oh. Uh oh. I don't know the The city

That was a tell me a little bit the decision your thoughts challenge.

I mean, the last big project is

members. So, um I started with a map just to give you guys an idea of where we do own land. Some of it's very big spaces like the wellfields up north. Um, some of it's really small and we would never be able to do anything on it. Like if you look along the river, there's a lot of red along there because we'll try to buy property along the river so that there's not development going on there and kind of create a buff for ourselves. Um so um what we did is we went in identified cityowned uh properties um and then we eliminated any parcels that didn't meet our minimum lot size. So all those little ones or the long narrow ones and stuff, we eliminated those right off so we weren't spending any time on them. Um we eliminated lots that were in use that we felt the use wasn't going to change. So, like we own Phoenix Park, that use isn't going to change. So, we're not going to explore that one as a possibility for housing. Um, some of them, um, it may look totally vacant, but they have utilities running under them or like the park over here, there's, um, a restriction on the deed that we would need to dig into more. Um, so we kind of said no on that one right away because there's some other ones that we can move on quicker and depending on that deed restriction, we may never be able to um touch that. So, it's just going to take a lot more research. Um, then we um analyzed elevations. So, if the lot was big enough, but it had a 30 foot difference from the front to the back, we're not going to build a house on it. Could we dig into it? Probably. Yeah. But we're we're going to add a lot of cost to a house if we do something

like that. So, we checked those to make sure it was also suitable. Um

yes, flood planes. um anything zoning um all all of those things we went and looked at created a map and kind of just kept whittling it down um until we got to properties that we um felt were good. Um then our thought was we would do this twice a year. We sometimes we might come with five properties, sometimes we might come with 20 depending on the type of properties. Um so once we get to that part then we send them to engineering um utilities other departments to say hey will you take a look at these utilities do you have anything we may be unaware of running through here? Um any concerns? Um engineering. Are there any concerns? I'll show you one in a little bit that we were all excited about and then engineering kind of squashed it for us. So there's different uh many different things we have to look at before we even get to the place of this is a possibility. Um so we'll come twice a year if you guys want us to continue doing this. Um and um uh we didn't bring the handout. We have started a community outreach plan. I'll talk um about that in a minute and get feedback from you guys if there's additions you want to that. So, I'm going to go through some examples and um this is from the um the first two will be from the batch we're looking at first. Um this is Cameron Park. We actually had residents come to us about this um park, they said the area where the X is, there's never anybody playing in that area. The other side of the park, it gets used. Um but that area is just underutilized. So, we looked at if we drew a line across there, we could fit probably at least

six um single family homes. We might be able to get six uh uh twin homes. Um depending on the size of the units, we could even, you know, if we did cottage courts, maybe get up to 24 depending on how it was laid out. Um, we would look at this as probably more a single family or duplex given the context of the neighborhood. And this one, um, we would look at affordable, but we might, um, sell them also a little higher than the very bottom rate because then we can generate some income, revenue to upgrade their park, too. So all of those will be conversations as we go through the process, as we talk to um the community that'll be directly impacted by them. Um each one um and you guys, you know, um do you want us selling this for if these come up and they're single family homes um 300,000 and before you gasp, that's um really affordable for building new um and probably going to be hard to get to depending on what's built. um or do you want them selling them for 310 so that maybe we can make $60,000 for the park. So there's options with every property. Um some of the lots might be really really good lots that people would pay a higher amount for. So we might look at those as selling at market rate to generate income for um affordable housing. So, um, we'll discuss them all with you guys as we bring them forward and with the community, um, to make sure we're doing what you guys want with them. Um, so this is Cameron Park and our thoughts on that. We would not make the entire park excess land. We would just make this um, end of it and then we would put it on a website. We would

probably break down um, the lots first. Um, this one we might put up there like that and let a developer um, come and show us how they would like to lay out houses. So, um, but these would be all new units. Um, so that's just increasing our housing inventory, um, which is much needed right now. Um, next, uh, Stephie Road. I don't think this one was in um, the last batch, but this is one we've had a lot of interest in. Um, if you look at Stephy Road, um, right on the corner there, um, is a looks like a huge vacant lot. Um, I don't know if we have a

Yeah, that one right there. That one there. Everybody see? So, um that one when this little area was originally built, that was put in for storm water uh retention. Since that time, um there's been a lot of upgrades to the road, more development occurring in this area. So, um sewer and curbs and everything's been um added. So, this has been evaluated. It's not needed for storm water anymore. So, being that need's not there, um we could probably fit three to six new units. um on that property um versus us sending So each of these properties we have to maintain them. So we send somebody out to mow it um do any other work that's needed out there. So we wouldn't have to do all that stuff anymore either. Um this one was in the in the packet. This is up by the wellfields. Um there's actually two areas that we would look at potential development. the top part up there and then the side. One thing about this, these were all they all have um water and sewer already subbed in. They were planned to be housing um when they built out this development. Why it didn't happen, I'm not not sure, but it was planned for both of these sides to be housing. Um looking at this the top, they do kind of have a little bit of a view. um we might sell those at market rate um to put more money back into affordable housing. They're a little more prime. Um the ones on the side, we'd look at a more affordable. Again, affordable is probably going to mean um 3 to 350 depending on the type

of house um and and how it's built. Um but those are highly affordable compared to what news builds are going now. Um, duplexes are going around four. Um, homes at the low end are going for 450. Um, we had a developer uh, break it down as far as he could um, with only covering his cost and I think he was still at 360 when he did that. So, that was zero profit on building something.

Council member Worthman, just a reminder to use the microphones. Yeah, we can do fourplexes. You know, we can look at these anyway. So, um this area alone could probably fit 20 to 40 new units depending on um what what we end up doing here. If we want to do single family, probably be closer 20 um duplexes, triplexes, town homes, um we could probably get a lot higher amount in there. It's probably a good time to add. Council would have a twice review of any project that comes forward. It initially would be the excess land declaration on the sites that then allows us to put them out to the put them out to the wild, so to speak, to put them on our website and invite developers to apply for those. Council would still have the will be reviewing every single proposal to see if it conforms and fits with what you envision occurring with the lots that are owned by the city and council would approve every single sale. So if you don't like an appro approval that comes forward or a proposal that comes forward, council can turn that down and we can fine-tune, invite another developer to try and submit something better that better fits what you think is a suitable touch for that. So council will have automatically two touches on every project that will go forward.

All right. Um, next one. Um, you guys actually voted on this one at your last council session. Um, and that's why I put this one in here. There's two lots there that we own. Um, we held on to them for a long time to see if Mayo um had any interest. There's not really room for parking there. Um, they didn't have any interest. We kept holding on to them just in case after they told us no about 10 times. We're like, "All right, we're not going to hold on to these um anymore." Um, so these you guys did declare excess a a month or so ago. Uh, Corey Lee brought you guys um um a thing to uh straighten out the alley to um change the rideway. Um so that alley will be straightened out um which will correct that other lot line to come down more. Um, and we're currently negotiating, um, legal is an agreement with Habitat for Humanity, and they intend on building two duplexes. So, this will add four new units right across from the hospital. Might be great for, you know, nurses, um, new doctors, stuff like that being close and and, you know, more affordable than what we're seeing. Um, another example, this is one we were all excited about. We're like, "Yeah, we can get a house on here, if not a duplex, pretty easy." We thought a driveway might be a little tough, but we were pretty, you know, us planners, we can make anything happen. We're pretty sure we could squeeze it in at the top. We couldn't. There's not enough uh sight line. So, there's no way a driveway can go on this property. There's no alley. There's there's no other option. So, this propertyy's kind of kind of stuck there. Um, you know, I if it was up to

me, I'd recommend that we offer it to one of the neighbors to give them a bigger yard. Um, could be a nice place. Dave's not here, but for um a little roundabout to connect those streets um or to just connect them. Um, in Kansas City, my neighborhood association bought a vacant land and we turned it into a park that had what we wanted there. So, that could be an option or making it a pollinator garden because our staff still has to go out and regularly mow and maintain this. So, is there a way we can um remove that from that also so they're not driving around hitting all these little lots at once? So, this one we can't do a house on, but I just wanted to show you some of the stuff that we're going through. Could it be

Could you just use your mic, please? Could it be a car-free home? Um, our our zoning um doesn't allow that. I don't know if there's a conditional use per option, but I think long term that makes it difficult to sell. So, if an owner would buy it as a car free, but then they go to sell it, um maybe 20 years from now when we're not all driving our own cars. Um, but I I think with our zoning, it's going to be a tough one to to sell. Um, plus they'd have to find somewhere to park and it wouldn't be too close. Saying for someone who doesn't need a car, doesn't want a car. Yeah, like Jeremy. Jeremy, you can buy it and build.

I I could see us trying to promote this kind of thing. Yeah, we I'd have talked to not able to buy anything from the city as a as a council member. We could talk to planning and see if there's an option for a conditional use permit. I don't think that would qualify. So, right now, our zoning requires driveways.

Requires parking to make sure there's enough parking and we don't have our streets just constantly lined. Um they did reduce those, but yeah, we do have a parking um requirement. And Billy, that does that include on street parking adjacent to the property that would count. They it has so many have to be on the property. Um so let's say it's going to be like a four bedroomedroom. It has to have so many on the property, but they can utilize x amount um on street to fulfill the whole parking. So, there does have to be some um

I guess I'm I'm kind of curious like cuz I have a East Side Hill home with no alley and no and is just on street parking. Is that not currently that would have been zoning at uh when that house was built. Um but ours do have minimum parking requirements. There are there are some allowances for publicly available parking within so many feet of the residential unit. um in this case. So there's no parking on street parking allowed in here. So there's no public parking anywhere near that space. So it would have to have on Yeah. by code. It has to have something. Yeah. This one's on the curve and you can't park there. So

Yep. So reasons why sometimes we can't do what we see as an option for some of those spaces.

All right. I'll do uh one more example. This is one we were excited about. Um Leah actually brought this one to us. um she was looking at something here and she's like, "Why don't why don't you guys build on that parcel there?" It's like, "Oh, great idea." So, we looked at it, sent it out, and utilities came back. There's um something running through that lot. So, now we all know why there's a vacant lot right in the middle there. So, we can't build on that one. Um so, when we go through them, we have a bunch that we're like, "Yep, we could build on them." And then as we start whittling them down, um, we find stuff like this.

Yep. Yep. Yep. Um, so for outreach, our thoughts were we each time we bring a batch to council, we would have uh one large uh public meeting um probably at the library so it's centralized. We'd set up um do it like open house, set up stations with each project. So, um, like this one, um, I think it had a total of four or five, but that one, you know, is 20 to 40 houses alone. So, it really depends on how many lots we think we're going to get and the time um, we're going to have spend as staff getting that going. Um we will direct mail um property owners within 300 ft of each property so that they are aware and then we use our uh public notice and social media to let the entire uh community know in case somebody who doesn't live nearby wants to come and get uh input and then we' compile all the input we get and put that in staff report as we bring them forward and that's All I have.

Thank you. Um, yeah, I guess we can kind of manage ourselves for this for the most part, I think. So, but I it seems like

should I start? Okay. Uh, so I know the first step is excess land and then putting it out to developers like what can people build here? Do we have as any part of our vision like what ends up happening? Like do does the city retain ownership of these properties? Do we want to um you know other do we want to have them be rentals? Do we care if they're rentals or for sale um for home ownership? Do we want to do some use this as opportunities to do some experimental energy efficiency um models so to speak uh to showcase our 2050 you know um carbon neutral goals.

Um anyway I'm just I'm just thinking that there's a lot of possibilities here and I don't want to constrain us to thinking single family home. The other thing that of course strikes me is all of these areas would really be amanable to more density. So anyway, those are those are some of my thoughts and I would say yes to all of that depending on where the property is. We want to look at the neighborhood. Um we don't necessarily want to put a fourstory multifamily in an area that's all single family. Um, so I I think I want to question that a little bit because we we redid our zoning to to to affect change,

right? Um, and we will where we're where we're able um and where developers are interested in building even like the Cameron Park. I know it's all a single family home, but why wouldn't we build something very dense there? Just because the neighboring area is single family homes doesn't mean we don't want to I mean that's that's prime location for density. Um but the community we also have to consider what they we we'll approach all options that are available but um

approach we could take with council would be if there's certain criteria that you find favorable for a project. We could specify those in where we post the site saying that these are criteria that council finds attractive in redevelopment projects and that can be the basis of your review of individual proposals whether or not you sell a site to a particular developer or project. Provides a very good metric to help benchmark quantify its list on the website and to help guide your decision when you decide whether the particular proposal is suitable for that site or not. Um, we try not to get we've always tried not to get too specific. We found and we learned this through the RDA lock sales and the different projects that the more we narrowly define a project, the fewer and fewer people we saw actually submit proposals against it. Um, a lot of developers came with feedback we got from them was that, you know, what you described is really not me. It's really not what I do. It's not what I do well. So, I just don't even bother submitting an idea for it. We found that if we gave general parameters and then invited them to proposal and then we we took those proposals to the RDA board. They can look at say, you know what, this does fit our vision for what that site is or it does fit well with what we envision for this area, we'll we'll move forward and and do an agreement with that project. So, we could certainly use that same process to to take council's input on criteria and kind of drive project design.

Yep. And we've considered things like um if we we use the affordable housing fund to build or put um manufactured or uh modular homes um and then having the housing authority take them over so that they're um housing authorities not quite ready for that. Um, and we'd have to be able to fund the builds. Um, if we're giving them out to not necessarily giving, if developers are coming, they're going to fund the build and they're going um to sell it. We could fund some builds and then sell the whole house ourselves um to to avoid some costs there, too. Um, but yeah, we're open, especially innovative. I'd love to see that happen. We're going to a conference um later this summer where they're going to have a 3D concrete print um demo. Um

I just saw a bunch of them in town with a lot of their three built 3D 3D printing homes and they are amazing and I I'd love to see one built have somebody live in it for a year. Get feedback from them. find out the energy efficiency in those homes is crazy. I forget but clear your microphone then on sorry the R factors on the walls and the ceilings uh and and the roof was I mean unheard of what you can do with anything else those Yep.

Yeah. We visited the hub with a developer. Um we could do one of these properties set up like this. We do an agreement with uh somebody who would manage it. um or sell it to somebody who would want to manage um something like so. We have a a ton of things. We'll look at each property, what's most suitable, any criteria you guys give us, what neighborhood feedback is, and and go from there.

Um I have uh two questions. one would the Cameron Park one for example, is that something where we could maybe start with like maybe a third of that and and request that somebody give us a submission idea for like a garden court or a carriage court as like an increased density option. I'm a little bit loathed to totally cut that other street off from access uh to Cameron Park so people have to go all the way around especially if maybe that's part we would something like that we would include like uh something in the middle that's a path through to the park or something like that

during the court plan reviews and study in one of the work sessions that council had here last summer when they showed how a a park space could be divided down and fun news this was the park that they used as an example on that and they included included specifically designated trail access from 9th Street into the remaining park can be left on either end of the boundary. So there's now instead of just cutting through grass, there's a hard trail that the neighborhoods to the east could walk past the developments. There's certainly ways to accommodate any hurdles that council would have or it's you you develop a two small lots out, but there's certainly but yes in terms of density, we can break it up. However,

the other question I had was about like do we have uh like heat maps that are developed for land and and tax revenue sort of stuff. Can we look at the values? And in places where it's under X, maybe that's where we sell it for like low-inccome development and where it's above X, then um maybe it would be a better use of the land to sell it to somebody that would build something that we could get a lot of tax revenue that we could then maybe divert into ongoing affordable housing efforts.

Yep. Love that. Um cuz I think you know I I guess I don't know for sure what type of houses but at least on part of the stuff over by the wells it seems to me that that's a relatively high tax area or a high home value. That's why we were thinking like the top side and then coming down the side with to go up.

Yeah. Or but I mean like even having your your backyard look out into the park is is going to be a major selling point in terms of property value. So I mean those those are ones that I guess personally I would consider more for just you know uh you know sale at market rate to to to bolster our funds to do more projects in in uh places where land costs are a bit lower.

Absolutely. And that would make sense up there too because it's not really a job center area and we should probably focus affordable when when we can on closer to our job centers um to where you know people have more options for work and um you know they want to bike or walk to work it affordability makes sense when it's makes more sense closer to uh job centers and transportation. Okay.

Thank you. Um because this involves parks, I wanted to hear what our waterways parks and urban forestry uh committee's feedback was on this that we should be aware of.

So we went to them first to kind of get what they felt um to kind of help us um moving forward because Cameron Park and the wellfields um would be in their purview. Um it ended up um when it got on the agenda, I had a conference to go to and Aaron had a speaking session. So unfortunately neither of us were there. We probably should have um pulled it, but um I don't know if Todd clued you in on more of the feedback.

It wasn't listed in the business agenda, so it wasn't a votable item. Um they had some of the same inquiries and some of the same questions that council had brought up when these were approached is public input. the the surrounding neighborhoods which led to the um the concept of how to address gathering public feedback and neighborhood feedback. So that would be and they would be part of any discussion relates to that is required recommendation if it's a park or within certain access you know certain

some of the uh former storm detention sites may actually require that to go through them too. So we'll have to evaluate each one and do it appropriately. So, just so I understand, um, we're the big picture here. You're not asking for a specific feedback on parcels. You're trying to help inform a process and then that would be used, but that even that process that is written up, we'll have another go at being able to give our thumbs up on it. Okay. Yeah. Actually, two more two more go two more goes on developing this process.

Um, yeah. Um tonight we we just want to make sure you guys do still want to move forward with the excess land project. And um if you're okay with the start of what we have as a um outreach plan, I can throw um some more detailed together tomorrow um to send to you guys to um make sure we did talk about, you know, having a meeting for each property. Um, but let's say in the fall we don't have big ones. We just have small ones. We bring you 10.

That would be 10 public meetings and that makes it, you know, preparing materials, going to the meeting, cleaning up, all that. It makes it very difficult for staff to Yeah. So, it would slow us slow us down. That's why we thought one central meeting plus mailing specifically to the homes directly impacted would be um our best option.

That makes a ton of sense. Thanks for clarifying. So, there's a few things that come to mind. At first and foremost, I like the idea of excess land sale, but using it as a leverage point for trying to fill the housing gaps that we have. I'm not necessarily interested in making it super easy to develop market rate because I do think there's a lot of corn fields that surround our community that are going to be developed into market rate. But if we have a role in maybe we sell at a real low rate because you're coming in with a forplex with affordable units, I'm more interested in that. Um, so the the product is going to matter. That's for how I feel about it. I want us to think holistically in our community about what areas we're looking at and thinking about. So, um, like certain neighborhoods maybe don't have as much access to parkland. I want us to be careful in neighbors neighborhoods that don't have as much access to parkland that we're putting we're maybe putting the brakes on thinking that those might be good good ideas or good parks to potentially develop or we do it in a really smart way. Otherwise, I think we're going to run into a lot of there's going to be a lot of resistance in those neighborhoods. This is this is one example. I could imagine a lot of resistance just to turning parkland over. Even if you support affordable housing, it still could create some tension. Um, another thing is um that I think it's going to be easier for us to do the singular parcels. That's just going to go smoother, I think, because we already I have one I have a few in my neighborhood, East Hill. those are those are just going to be easier to flip I think to to uh to projects. I also think that there's some benefit in looking at from a perspective of we talked about this a little bit with

our century code but the corridors idea of like having making sure that there are green greenway corridors throughout our community and keeping continuity where we can with those. And so we should think about that as well in in how we decide like okay um well there's a few corridors actually in this in the community. One on the west side where we've turned it into a bike trail. It's a great example. There's there's excess land there that could have been flipped but we didn't do that. We actually created a thoroughfare for like travel amazing bike trail. So, like thinking about corridors as an important part of our community and maybe not maybe deemphasizing those. Um, I will share that I voted no on an excess land designation on Galloway and River Park, River Prairie. The council, it was like a 65 vote. The council voted yes to to to go forward on a development there, Galloway Flats, which we've all seen. But part of the concern there was I was feeling like this on a river, it's between two communities that are growing and having park space that's accessible for people that are lower income in that area actually matters. And it was a that was a tough call and we ended up um voting 65 to designate excess land. So those are the kind of things that are in my mind when you say come forward with a policy parkland. We might want to put that on like a on like, hey, you're coming out with a super affordable project. There's a ton of land in this park. Actually, there's one place that I think of. It's the North River fronts. People in the north river riverfronts don't want this developed, and I know that, but there's actually land right below the city shops. There's a parking lot there, and it's out of the flood plane, and it could be like an apartment or something on the river. Just an idea. Um but but I think I think trending away from parks

and thinking about are there other areas just like green spaces, unused areas. We have more than 2,000 acres of city land in this city over 430 parcels. It's a lot. Um and I just feel like going if we go after this and it raises community uh temperature, it's going to like create problems for us. So, this is one of them that the neighbors came to us um with with the idea of using that part of the the park. Um not the association, people that live around the park um came to us with this one. So, that's why sure

um we thought, well, yeah, that makes sense. It's a great one. We can do it and maybe enhance the park so that the neighbors have a better park in the process. Part of the screening process on the parks is feedback from the the parks and rec maintenance folks who are doing the mowing on these spaces. The ones that have come forward, they've said that we see no movement or we see no use in these spaces. There's never anybody there. There's no activities scheduled or going through there. This is a space that could look to be a different use. and that part of that discussion the neighborhood outreach will gather uh input from the neighborhoods that would part of the staff report. So that would be part of the weigh-in factors. Um an approach like you'd referenced is if we bring multiple parcels together as a block and we have input on each parcel within the staff report. Um council could elect when reviewing that, let's move this parcel out of the block and talk about it separately. These are all fine. Let's vote on these as a block. This one has other certain extenduated circumstances. We take that discussion up separately and maybe choose to not call it excess land. It provides a way to do it fairly streamlined to to not eat up a lot of, you know, time and time again coming forward on parcel here, parcel there, but make sure that council has solid input and can get feedback from the neighborhoods. So, we can certainly adjust a process to make sure that it's meeting your your requirements and needs.

And I would be cautious on parks, too. Um, this I I think's a great path forward, but I also feel if I lived in this neighborhood and it was made up like my neighborhood, it probably wouldn't be a park that's used at all. Um, because most of my neighborhood is retired people. Um, but someday somebody else is going to be moving into that neighborhood who So, I think you see your parks go through cycles, but I think doing part of it um makes sense to me. So, Sure. Yeah. Um Erin, I like what you said there about, you know, going to the neighborhood and when we were doing parkland to get the feedback from them because you were saying like how this one here, you know, no one's using it, no one's reserving it, but there's psychological and emotional benefits just from the visibility of green space even if you're not walking that green space. It's it's beneficial to the neighborhood and and the mental health of the people there. Um so, uh yeah, I mean definitely want to hear from the you residents before we try to um access any any of the parkland. Um and then going with what Claire said earlier, um you know, we this is land that we own and you know, we when we redid the century code, you know, we intentionally put in the opportunity for a lot more development. Um and you're saying sometimes you you want to do something and a developer say, "Oh, that's not really my thing." But if you if it happens, you're going to have single family home, single family home. And I think this is a way to incentivize like, you know, we can sell for a rate where that someone might say, "Okay, I'll give that a shot." And also this gives us the opportunity to be the ones that normalize upscaling the density here. We can make the catalyst of okay, I have a single family and I have a new duplex here and that's fine. And once the city gets used to it, then I think that'll be a catalyst to help developers kind of say yes, I can do this too. So I really want to see us pushing the envelope on on how much density we can get into these these places here.

Yep.

Absolutely. Those are great points. It's it's very good timing with the comprehensive plan update coming forward. will be defining how we envision the growth of different regions and segments in the community so we can use that as a as a guide for proposals coming for different areas. Um encouraging different housing types. That's one of the things we really hope could be accomplished through this process is we we have heard from a lot of small builders and small developers that they have some interesting housing types that are popular elsewhere that nobody's that the established guys that are not building here and they can't compete with the worers and the folks that buy chunks and and they just they they have they're aggressive in the market. this gives them an opportunity for some of these other folks who are really looking to bring different housing types to the community and absolutely I mean the idea of of different housing types even densities. I think of a a community with rolling hills. I I look around like why are there no more tuckunders cut into hillbanks with tuck under garage ground level connects, you know, second floor connects to the back. It's like you see that in steep train all the time. Makes very efficient use of elevations.

And you you tell anybody that and they're like, "Oh, no. Nobody does that." It's like they do it in every community except Oclair that has rolling hills that are suitable for development in residential neighborhoods. So again, an opportunity where we control the land. We could help control some of the narrative. Um,

can I jump in real quick? I have to leave. Yeah. So I don't have any additional questions or comments. I just wanted to provide general support for the comments that have already been made. Um, very interesting uh presentation. I love what y'all are doing and um I just wanted to before I dipped out pro provide my support to the comments that other council members are making and thank you for the presentation you put together. I would ask, do you have any any concerns or would like to see any shifts in how we're proposing to do the community outreach? We're modeling off of what we do for zoning changes with the direct mailing of the neighborhood association contacts. Any suggestions or if you have some thoughts on that, email us and we're happy to help incorporate those.

I can share if I do. I I generally don't. Um if I think of some, I'll pass them along. But off the top of my head, I don't have any concerns with the process and suggestions that you put together. Thank you.

And to kind of piggyback on what Erin said, I have developers emailing me probably weekly asking, "Hey, do you have properties yet?" Um because they do want to um try different things. Um and that's what a lot of them are looking at. Habitat's very excited um for this program. They have um a duplex build going on in Monomin. Um they're having difficulties getting qualified applicants for it. they have two qualified applicants sitting in waiting in Oaklair for a build. They can get applicants in Oaklair um much easier than other communities because we're the biggest, you know, job center. Um so they're very excited about it.

Um I have a thought on the Cameron Park one. What if could what if you could orient something similar in size east to west and and have that be like sort of a a long longer sort of cottage court kind of thing um there and that would allow connection to to um to both sides of the street. We could look at that option. We would have to consider, you know, what do we do with the basketball court, playground, or if we do it on the other side, the shelter, not not going all the way. A ring off N Street and loading around the ring just off of N Street.

Like an alley sort of. I mean, I guess I I I I don't know. I know we have uh carriage courts and garden courts in the the thing. I guess I'm thinking a little bit more cottage courty like you know what they do out in LA or something that that doesn't

this is the the sort of property that accommodates that type of development that's what's intended to do is this type of development the model that he showed during the corp study um based on current zone taking they actually cut the park in half they could fit 24 units in that half of the park under current codes doing a very similar concept of park cottage court part narrow owner lots with some very different housing types. Um the zoning code allows for definitely thinking very differently in terms of these spaces and and provide some opportunity. So I guess

we can measure off going down one side. I know when I was a kid our favorite thing was empty lots because we played a lot of baseball, football, stuff like that. Um so we can look at it and see how much it would impact the park if it makes it even clearer. Um, but all the design um elements we'll get into as we bring all the all those things to you guys. Um, to get ideas of what you would guys would like to see on each uh lot, each parcel, how you might want them, you know, do you want to split them up first, let the developers look at it as one hole in what they can do or, you know, so we'll bring all that detail back for you guys.

Absolutely. Do a hybrid of of how you want to see these lots developed. It could be that these lots develop a proposal, submit us a proposal and we'll review them case by case. You could set aside certain lots saying we want something very specific in these

and that can be a hold out to meet specifically your criteria set and waiting for developer to bring that forward. So, a lot of opportunities to to address how council would like to see that move forward. It seems to me with with some of these infill ones that are in especially uh single family neighborhoods that something that's higher density but like a carriage or garden court would be a lot a lot more integrable um than than like you know a 20 unit apartment building or something like that. And I think it would not not impact the neighborhood nearly nearly as much. But also that's right by Council President Gregor's house. So I don't want him to be impacted too much. Or maybe we do.

Or maybe we do. So good. I just want to say if I could on this Cameron Park that I know, the neighborhood association was very very eager to create and propose a community garden here. So I know that has like people got some whiff of what the ah that that's our community garden. That's our community garden. So just be aware that that that is u that's out there as u as as something that I think near term a lot of the neighbors were wanting to see a community garden there.

Yeah. I feel like I mean part of the process I think what we should be open to is how we can like we want to make sure we're providing an opportunity for discussion that maybe is beyond maybe what we initially thought as possibilities, right? And it could be a garden. It could be like creating an amount of interest in a park that maybe hasn't had a lot of intentionality around it for a long time. And this park, so Cameron, for example, like has been around for like maybe a hundred years. I don't I don't know if we have an origin or history of each of our park parcels, but it's like my house is just one block to the north on ninth street, and it it just turned 100 this year. And I've seen, you know, a lot of these houses are from the 20s and earlier. Mine used to be a duplex, actually. So, it's just was converted into a single family, but most of them are single family, partly because they are so small. And this I looked up all the different I actually calculated the when I moved into the neighborhood I calculated the square footage based on our records of um of all like the average square footage of the houses in the neighborhood which there were about 180 or so between like 11th and 7th and and um Vine and Cameron and the and the average was about a thousand square feet which is actually like pretty much the smallest in the like we've We do have such things as tiny houses in Oaklair. As it turns out, there's some that are as small as 400

Yep. square feet. And And actually, I had some friends that rented the house just to the east of the X there. And the X is maybe a little bit of an ominous symbol for me, but um to use maybe for the future, but the uh but the uh like that that's a less than 600 square foot house. And we probably I mean I think you've been there, Andrew. We we were parked in there. We had like six people in that in in one room. That was about as many as you could fit in. You felt like you're in a having a sleepover or something just to have dinner, you know? Yep.

But when I moved here, there was a handful of one-bedroom homes for sale, all owned by the same person, and I was like, perfect. Then we started looking at them, and they were in the worst condition ever. They probably just needed, but it was a landlord not maintaining them. So, I I would personally be all about a little one-bedroom.

Yeah. I mean, so a lot and I remember one thing that they really liked about renting there was the fact that there was a park across the street and not only the view, but the potential use. And like I really I don't like it when we ever use the word like people never use or don't use something. So like I would avoid it's like that's what people say about the bus a lot and I'm like on the bus and I'm like am I like you know I'm a person, right? you know, so like and I've used I've used a lot of this I've used a lot of that part of the park actually because that's the closest part I can get to. And there are some interesting trees there too. So like we would have to be talking about potentially taking down some some oak trees that are probably within our within our um you know preservation uh realm. And then um the some of the things to keep in mind as we look at parcels in general is just proximity to other park parcels as I think Andrew mentioned that but like we have a situation where people have died as recently as last summer like trying to cross Cameron Street you know

on a bike for example um and like that's the closest like maybe getting over to that Buffington Park is the closest one maybe the Canary park is about as equal distance away. Um so and those are actually pretty far away uh to get to from this particular neighborhood. So like I think it is important that we look at how realistic is that people can actually get to other parks if if this one is made smaller. Um and then another thing would be um just the the size of the houses and the size of the lots in proximity because like if you have a very small house and you also have very small lots like people probably don't they kind of need to get out more and they probably don't have a lot of space to get out in. In this neighborhood kind of is some of the smallest houses and the smallest lots. The only neighborhood that I calculated that has slightly smaller houses is actually the Mount Simon neighborhood. and they have a lot more access to bigger park space than almost any neighborhood does. So the ba it's that one sort of balances out a little bit more than this one. Um, so that's that's one one the pro so I think I could submit some of these things like via via email, but like I feel like I should be taking pictures when I see people in the park, you know, because because there's there seems to be a perception that people don't really use it and people like to have that larger space with their dogs like which is maybe not it's not exactly a dog park, right? But that happens. Or people have have like a kite or they have, you know, that's a full-size soccer field unless we unless Larry and Boa tells me otherwise. But like that's a pretty big,

you know, a par. This could actually serve as a a guide for council to request a developer to show some really really unique ways to lay out a space. You show this parcel say we we had this space we're interested in. We have these series of trees that are heritage trees in nature. Show us how you could do a unique development that brings affordable housing without disturbing the trees that are sitting in that space. Yeah. And keeps that green space value. So it can be a challenge from council.

Absolutely. It could be a challenge from council to developers to to get more creative in what they do. That's the biggest challenge we have and we see this all the time when we we connect with developers and we talk to real estate groups. I encourage my team to make sure when you talk to realtors, talk to someone who's 20 years in their career and talk to someone who's two years in their career because the person who's been in it for decades tell you this is why we build because this is all people buy and the developers reinforce that statement. But you talk to that young brand new to the industry, they're like the folks I'm working with, that is not what they want. That's the only thing you're providing. So they they either have to buy it or they go back to renting and of the town that only had burger.

Absolutely. Absolutely. So, we see that all the time and and other communities have built programs around enticing new housing types coming into the market and it have worked. So, it's a it's a way for the council to throw down a dollar to the development group say get creative and show us what you can do.

Yeah. And one thing I just want to say about this particular one, like I think if we have a a session for input, it should be at the shelter because it's already there and we have summer coming up and people can go and walk around and see the scale of this thing because it actually is a huge park and that's probably why we're talking about it, you know. Um, but that's also very unique for a neighborhood park to have that kind of space. And so it does need to be more utilized and it does it does have opportunities, but I think like for something of this nature where the neighborhood association already has annual events there like you could actually have it there and you could walk the perimeter of it and actually talk through the ideas as opposed to just, you know, meeting at the library and having a lot more hypotheticals. Sorry. It might make sense to do that more, especially with this parcel because it is a park as opposed to some of the other ones that are just like excess land. So, I'm I I'm not going to advocate that you have a separate meeting for each parcel, but maybe this one in particular should have its own meeting.

Well, if we look to do say two two meeting blocks of public input a year, we could have one that's this is all single parcel, single infill developments. This one is more complex projects which requires more input from the community which will then provide more guidance to council on a decision. So we could certainly make accommodations for that you you said previously that you were looking for guidance. So I guess I would I would also echo uh Charlie's Charlie's sentiment that you know obviously the devil's in the details but it seems like you're covering those fairly well. So I would say, you know, no reason to hit the brakes. Just you know, keep doing what you're doing.

If I could, if I could add one other small element, I I want us to be cautious about which areas of the community are chosen that, you know, when I first read the list, I thought, you know, we're not talking about anyone's park in the third ward. We're talking about one on the west side. And I just want us to be cognizant that like we should probably be thinking equitably about what areas of the community we decid someone's park needs to be smaller because you can imagine a Demler discussion. Um you know and and I just want us to think that part through too that we're we're not looking at areas of maybe lower socioeconomic or connectedness um political power discrepancies.

Yep. I'll add a map layer of that. to help us as we're going through them and decide. Yep. Yeah. A lot of parcels to bring forward. So, we can certainly make sure that each tribes that we bring forward for review includes mixes from all all areas and all regions and not focused on anyone. Absolutely. Essentially, I think if you build any new building in this neighborhood, it would be one of the most expensive housing options in the neighborhood just like on day one. By definition.

Yeah. And and also I don't know if it's easy to do because I'm not a GIS wiz, but you know when you when you bring this forward if you're able to do it with some sort of like heat map just so we can see you know the the the land value in in a particular place that might be helpful in helping us make a decision on if we want to do one of these innovative projects with the developers that we sort of have some guidance on or maybe you know it would be better like this this lot could be worth $80,000. because it's right next to the the well field. Maybe it would be better to just sell that to a developer, let them put a $600,000 house there, tax it, and take the $80,000 and do something, you know, better, more useful in a in a place that, you know, has the access that you're talking about, the the transit, the the services and things like that.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, this one does have transit, too, which is nice. You know, it's like a selling point for it, right? Thanks, Jerry.

I think we have the direction we need from the council. It looks like we're moving in good direction. If you have any other thoughts or or ideas, feel free to forward those on to Billy and I. We'd love to continue to get input and continue to fly through this process as we move forward. And like I said, I'll send a more comprehensive outreach plan out to you guys tomorrow and I'll add that um some sites we will do direct um for like sites like this um make sure I get that in there and I'll send that out to you guys tomorrow. So if you have any feedback, just reply back to me. Thank you so much.

Thank you everyone. Appreciate your time. hanging out. Well,