Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

calling the meeting or meeting to order at 700 p.m. Uh, may I get a roll call, please? Whoever's going to be your secretary for other years. We don't have a secretary. We haven't had elections, have we? We haven't had elections. We haven't had a secretary. We got somebody.

Mhm. ready. Okay. Um, Mr. Barone, Mr. Present. Mrs. Oh, Mrs. I better write that down. Mr. Rosco, present. Mr. Troutman, present. Mr. Williams, here. Mr. Wilson here.

Okay. Uh, Mr. Hudson and we have three vacancies. All right. Moving on to the approval of last meeting's agenda. Are there any changes or comments to the minutes as published? M. Mr. Mr. Chair, I'd like to add to the approval of the amendment of the agenda for tonight. Very well. If we can add unfinished business and select officers.

Okay. Are we aren't we supposed to be at a full membership to have elections or we if we can the attorney can give us a clarification on that based on we're missing one of our our our attendants. Is that right? Yes. So he when we get there he can define that definition whether or not we need the whole team here before we can run officers or not. Okay. Moving on back to the uh approval of the agenda. I move the approval the agenda be approved as uh amended. Second. I get a call.

Okay. Um, Mr. Troutman. Uh, yes. Mr. Rosco, yes. Mrs. Barone, yes. Mr. Williams, yes. Mr. Wilson, yes. Okay. Motion.

Moving on to the first hearing of the public. Is there anybody that would like to speak? Hi, my name is Jennifer Nicholas. I'm an East Point resident. I've lived in the city for almost 60 years. I have never been to a ZBA meeting before. Um, I have been going to planning commission meetings and city council meetings and some school board meetings even um over the last year, year and a half. I did go back and watch the May 15th meeting. Um, Mr. Urbal, um, you did a really good presentation of explaining what the ZBA's function is. Um, I like a lot of other people, like you mentioned, had thought that the ZBA um, is in place to grant variances to pretty much whomever um, for a variety of reasons. And Mr. reveal in his presentation as I'm sure you recall um kind of put it a different way that uh the board's function is to enforce our ordinances and that varants are to be granted if there's really extenduating circumstances or if somebody has been treated unfairly or if there's some crazy reason why they can't comply with what our city's ordinances are. Um, I have been going to planning commission meetings and they have been talking about the master plan that we are

moving on to the next item on the agenda which is the approval of minutes. Are there any additions or changes to the minutes? As published being none, I make motion to approve the minutes as published. Support. May I get a vote? Okay. Mr. Wilson, yes. Mr. Rasco. Yes. Miss Barone. Yes. Mr. Troutman. Yes. And Mr. Williams. Yes.

Moving on. Next item. Uh, ZBA preface. I do not have a copy to read. Mr. share. There's a I have it on the screen. If that is helpful to you, if I can bring my computer over or I could read it. Uh, please do. Okay. Somebody else have a go.

The the city of East Point Zoning Board of Appeals primarily addresses practical difficulty difficulty based on lot size, location, shape, or contour, andor location of existing buildings. Article 17 of the East Point Zoning Ordinance guides the board's decision decisions. There are seven members of the ZBA plus two alternates. Four members constitute a quorum. A majority vote of those present and voting is required for a motion of approval or denial. Each appeal before the ZBA will have a public hearing at which time the appellent will first present their case and then any public comment regarding that issue will follow. During this time, members of the board may ask questions or of or clar excuse me questions of clarification. If a particular point gets belabored, the chair has the right to limit comments. When the public hearing is closed, the board will move onto the deliberation phase. If the appellant should agree with the board's decision, they have the right should disagree with the board's decision, they have the right to appeal to the Mcome County Circuit Court within the time frame established by statute or ordinance. When the agenda item concludes, the applicant is welcome to leave or stay for the remainder of the meeting. Moving on to the moving on to the next item on the agenda. Uh hearing of the public specifically for the agenda item A 173758 mile Moses Roses.

Oh, thank you there. I appreciate it. Uh let me first start off by saying thank you very much for uh making the time and allowing us to be here. Um uh you have a beautiful community and as I came in we noticed the beautiful music going on. That was really that was I haven't seen that in a while. That's really really nice. And uh one thing I'd like to acknowledge is this lady that came up and mentioned something and uh I go to these zoning board meetings probably two or three times a week uh all over the United States. and um uh and every every city has their own heart and desire of how they'd like their community to to go and and she's absolutely 100% correct and you know the community should really focus on you know the future of the community and uh we know that sometimes things go by the wayside. And we drove by um uh in the area and I do see signage for buildings like this actually half or quarter of the size with signage upwards of 3 to 500 square feet of signage on their building which personally as a sign manufacturer I would love that heck that's a lot of money for me but in all honesty that's really an ugly and eyesore and I'm sure that over time hopefully when new businesses come in that you can enforce it orever whenever whenever you do your new ordinance that you take in consideration the size of the building and so on and so forth. Um with that said um what we're seeking and if you can you have the images in front of you. We look at this building uh very closely. It's very easy that we can just redline this thing and say hey you know what just don't waste our time and you know go down to the allowable square footage. is just that when we look at this building and we laid it out and we try to be aesthetically pleasing. We're not trying to um make this thing look like Las Vegas or anything of that nature. We're just trying to make the

sign kind of conform to the building. Uh unlike like right again right probably next door two doors down that Moses Roses in comparison to theirs the building that's quarter the height has a sign that goes in across the entire place or across the street where they're at almost 500 square feet of signage on one building. We we reduced the size to the allowable which was I believe uh 455 54 square feet. It's doable but it warps. It absolutely does not look appealing whatsoever. And and I know as your city moves forward, you're looking not just forcing a compliance, but you want aesthetically appealing uh images. Um, you know, what whatever business it is, you really should at least be noticing that this building is what is what it is. And it's not a single line item tenant, for example, was a single tenant. I completely agree. You you need a smaller sign for each smaller tenant and that fits perfectly fine on 40 50 square feet per tenant. it works fine. But when you have such a size seismic building, uh it just looked so much more appealing and it does not overpower Western plastic materials. We use the same uh material aluminums that we would use for their products. The LED chips are SMD chips, so which is really clean looking, so you don't get that spotty look. So basically all you're seeing is like a nice clean font text on on a building. Uh pretty straightforward. Um it lasts a long time as quality and manufactured and put up there. That's the That's the wall signs. Obviously, we have two elevations that we're looking at. The second item uh we're looking at is the uh the pole sign up in the um up in the corner here, right by the entrance there. The nice thing about what Moses Roses did is they opted not to go with um the typical LED screens that you might see

out there where it looks like a bunch of dots, where it looks like a gas station or party store or something like that. They opted to go with what's called a 6 millimeter screen. This thing actually looks like a portrait. The the dodes on there are six millimeters apart, which means the resolution is superior to anything. When you look at it, you think it's an image. So, in that case, uh, if it's a holiday or something that nature, they're publishing up there. It's not going to look like a bunch of dots where it blares in your eyes or anything like that. Actually looks like an image. And the height, one of the reasons we're above the square footage, I think slightly on this one, um, not the height, the height, I think we're in compliance. The setback is all under compliance. Everything's under compliance, but we're a few feet uh over in square footage. The reason for that we opted to go to a 54 in height screen. We do these all over the United States and that height helps us with things other than just for that. We actually these are cloud-based and cellular these are open to communities to publish. For example, they set in the day when the extreme sunlight it brightens up a little bit, but at night time, me personally, in the day when the extreme sunlight, it brightens up a little bit, but at night time, me personally, I do not enjoy or like light pollution. I don't know if you've ever driven by one of these signs and these things go up to 10,000 nit. That's that can blind you at night. It's almost like looking at the sunlight, especially at night. It's dark out there and you have this. So, these automatically dim down and they actually very appealing. Uh it has 281 trillion colors. So that means it looks like a photograph unlike an LED screen. So the technology is there. The look is there is a clean cut finish. Um again I I know they're asking for a little bit of uh your consideration as far as uh size, but then looking at the scope of the

project, it's not um it's not by much. And I'm I got a feeling I got a feeling because you guys are looking at the future ordinances. You might consider a a scope of building of this magnitude. We actually what we did was originally we scaled it. Oh no, that's that's too big. And then we went down with it. You can't even read it. And then this came out to be a perfect uh um uh mixture of both. And also if you look the the side is facing eight mile the distance is so vast that it it you really needed that look and because the building is so tall you needed that size letters as well. Uh I I think especially at that height those letters look very tiny at that height. Even if you're standing right in front of the building you're going to think those letters are two feet tall uh in comparison. Um, please feel free to ask me any questions you have. Um, we're celebrating 50 years in this industry and we've been around a long, long time. Uh, and all these signs are, by the way, are UL certified. We manufacture everything in Pontiac because we're UL manufactured facility. We do all our own engineering and clothes and everything of that nature. So, if you have any questions, please feel free to ask me and uh, I'm here to help.

I have a question. Yes, ma'am. You made a couple of references in comparison. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. We come back. I'm sorry. That's okay. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you everyone. Oh, I'm sure we'll have some questions for you. Okay, moving on to the new business of the non- news. Uh, is there any questions? Oh, I'm sorry. He wants you to speak, sir. Do you want to say something, Chris? My apologies. Go right ahead. No.

You make your presentations and we have discussions and ask questions.

Good evening. My name is Chris Ayello. I'm the corporate attorney for Moses Roses. We're six seven stores wide in the state of Michigan. And we want to thank you for allowing us this opportunity to speak to you tonight about how important uh our brand is and how important uh the name Moses Roses is. Um to speak to two issues of difficulties because of the cockeyed nature of this building. If you look at that property, uh, it goes out to eight mile but then turns to the right. And it was difficult to see it at one point when the original pole sign was up. And so the original pole sign was just tattered um, uh, worn. People had run into it. It was it's probably been there for 40 or 50 years. So we decided just to remove the whole thing and start from scratch. But that original sign that had, if you if you recall, gone by there had Valvvelvine on it and um Mobile One on it at one time and it's as tall as the proposed sign is. Um if it wasn't in such a bad condition, we were thinking of saving some dollars and using it, but the proposed sign that we're putting up is as tall as that one was and it's down now under the demolition permit. But due to the the nature of the way that building sits and the trees on Kelly Road, if you see the trees that separate lock um Foot Locker from our building across the street, when you're coming westbound on 8 Mile, it's sort of difficult and we spend an awful lot of time observing um what the smaller sign would look like on the uh east side of the building as you go westbound on 8 mile. It was difficult to pick up and keep in mind uh the

property was it cost us a lot of money to get that property and um we our brand is everything but going west westbound on 8 mile it was really difficult under this under the ordinance sizes for the channel letters to pick up. So, as Hayam um illuminated and showed us the different sizes and picked it up, that size that you're looking at and the request tonight for the uh uh variance, which is I think 5 in or 10 in on the signs, uh really helps uh the westbound 8 mile traffic pick it up and then the run on the Black River and then go to Meno. We're the main sponsor in Port Heron for the drone show and the fireworks show. our name gets put up there and we we we um participate in that. We participate and sponsor the hockey team in in Port Heron called the Predators and we're all over their jerseys. And the same goes out into Waterford with probably 10 different community events that we we sponsor and pro um allow the city to use our parking lot. um every type of group and uh that uh is formed in Waterford is allowed to use our parking lot and our outreach programs and donations and so um we're pretty active and so we we will not change that. That's part of our success and so the same thing goes here in in East Point where we've already started out with the Tiger Cats. If you're familiar with the East Point Tiger Cats, we've already helped them out twice. Um and so uh once we get going and operating some more money in our pocket. Uh we plan to continue to do that with them. So appreciate it. Thanks this

I would ask you to please remember to keep your comment at three minutes.

Yep. Okay. Jennifer Nicholas again. Um yep. I agree that they are beautiful signs. It's too bad. not in compliance with our ordinances. Um, one of the signs is about double the square footage of what our ordinance allows. Um, I know they're comparing to other signs in the cities that that's part of the problem. There are businesses that have signs that are not in compliance. They've been grandfathered in. The understanding is that if those businesses change ownerships, the signs have to change, too. Um, I have nothing against Moses Roses. They are an excellent company from what I understand. They are well known throughout the community. I think if their signs were the signs of a matchbook cover, they would still do excellent business. But, um, here, what I'm understanding, the ZBA's function is to determine whether there is practical difficulty in making them comply with our ordinances. And I've not heard anything from them saying that making them hold holding them to our ordinances is going to cause them difficulty. Um, you know, it is what it is. They knew what that building was when they purchased it. I don't know at what point in the process they ended up purchasing it, but they selected that location. They selected that building. They know our ordinances. They've been working with our city planner on this for the site plan, the special land use approval. Um, all of this is known to them. You know, I'm not a planner. I'm not a building official. I'm not an attorney, but I think that Mr. Myers, Mr. Herbiel, Mr. Albbright, and even Mr. Ielo could probably speak more on what the criteria is on what this board's function is um whether to approve or

deny this variance. And in my opinion as a resident I don't feel that they've demonstrated any type of hardship and as a resident you know I can't speak for the whole community but I always hope that our boards commission city council represents the best interests of the residents and what they want for the community um and in something like this again I don't think it's going to make a difference if if we require them to comply with our ordinances Um, thank you for your time. There hearing of the public regarding this agenda item.

Being none, we will move on to questions and discussions of the board members. Mr. Chair, you may want to hear the city's planner's perspective on his report. If you want that in verbal be before you have your discussion or you want ready to speak it. Sure. Thank you, Mr. Chair. By all means, proceed.

Um, so just to confirm, uh, the application is before you because of the size of both the two wall signs and the sign area of the pole sign. Other than that, the uh, the signs meet or can meet the rest of the ordinance. Um the I did want to um acknowledge and correct uh an error in your packet as far as the extent of the variance. Um the uh the applicant is before you requesting three variances for the southeast facing sign. Um that is as it's listed in the packet. 88 square feet are proposed. Uh the maximum this this uh condition is based on the building frontage. um the length of the building on the street frontage. Uh by by virtue of how long the building is on the southeast facing side, uh the a maximum of 54 square ft is allowable and again they're proposing 88 square ft. Uh number two had some copy and paste error in it. Um, in that case on the southwest facing wall sign, uh, 55 square ft is um, excuse me, 41.25 ft is allowable and 55 square feet is proposed. So, the variance they're seeking is 13.75 square ft for the southeast facing side sign. Um, and then for the pole sign, uh, the variance is 13.92 square feet. Um the maximum is 50 and they're proposing a sign that's 63.92. Um in the packet on the poll sign the the maximum allowable is 50 square feet and what is drawn what is proposed is um 63.92

square feet. So my apologies for the the error in the request section of the of the report. Um but those are the accurate numbers. Um the so those three things are where the sign is not approvable by us because it does not meet the the zoning ordinance. Um, as has been alluded to, um, the ZBA per the zoning ordinance, uh, should find that a practical difficulty has been demonstrated and, uh, make those findings based on, uh, a series of factors which are listed in your, um, in your report, and I won't read them, but I'm happy to talk about any of them if you'd like. Um there are standards for practical difficulty and then there are pra standards for health, safety and welfare um related to whether or not the intent of the master plan and zoning ordinance would be upheld by granting the variance effect on adjacent property and surrounding neighborhood uh potential nuisances. Um, so I'm happy to answer any questions about the particulars of the um of the requests or of those standards if you'd like. Okay. Is there any discussion or a question among the board members? We'll try that again. I do have a question for um I'm sorry I don't remember your name. Sorry the

Hum. So you made a couple of references to um in comparison to Across the Street.

Yeah, I think like the Foot Locker which I think is fairly new and I believe the um also there's a hair salon I think straightly adjacent. I mean the Foot Locker logo alone is upwards probably around 50 square feet by itself. Uh it's it's quite massive. I mean, they use it as an art piece, but is a sign. It's still a channel letter is no different than this channel letter, but it's in the shape of their logo. Uh just like Moses Roses has a logo, but we're not putting eye here because it would be just too massive. The logo alone would be nearlyund something square feet if we were to put the logo up there. Uh again, they're not looking to take advantage of the community whatsoever. It's just that this looked really appealing and um and I and I do believe that because as you progress and you guys are looking to do a master plan again this might like the young you know lady mentioned you know is your duty to comply to the city but at the same time um they do have a situation here where there were other buildings adjacent to it that they were they were removed and because of the distance they do have somewhat of a hardship. I I I understand that you really you try not to deviate too much but at the same time uh having a minute size of a sign from you to be visible from 8 mile and at that height that building is just odd. It's just it's just so big uh that anything less than this really gets dwarfed. Um and I think that's probably why other buildings in the area were allowed especially on the 8 mile location. If we were closer down, if you were next to a community or next to a residence, I completely understand if you're facing them, you don't want the extra lighting and anything of that nature, but being right on 8th Mile in that intersection, it's uh it's not that far-fetched of a request. And um again, you know, we're not here, nobody's here trying to make you guys do anything that you guys are

not comfortable with, but at the same time, it just it makes sense. It makes sense. And I completely understand, you know, why someone might be against it because hey, you know, if we give it to them, we have to give it to everybody. That's not always the case. And every meeting I go to is is is unique. Every building is unique. If we felt that this was completely identical to another cookie cutter building next door, we wouldn't be here. And we we've been trying to have this meeting, I think, two or three times, but you know, we just couldn't get a quorum and everybody's busy. You know, you know how it is with with the way communities are. And um so we felt that it was an important thing and we wanted to be personally come here and discuss that with you and hopefully we can if not this maybe a compromise of some sort but we were just wanted to be able to present to you that this actually does not look uh overpowering whatsoever and what at that height because this building is just so large and I'm sure at back in the day it made sense the ordinance made sense because maybe these buildings were a little different or whatever the case may be and someone said, "Hey, you know what? Let's just throw this blanket ordinance out there that says this." But when you look at this building is just unique. We have buildings in other cities as well. You go to them in the city sometimes maybe they missed doing it in this ordinance, but um they do have ordinances that say, you know, if the building is this much bigger than normal, we'll allow another couple percentages here and there. So, and in reality that Moses Rosses could fall in compliance just reducing it by about 10 inches in height. But that was squished the letters and it just again it's all about uh aesthetics and it looks really good and the letters are so thin. Couldn't you guys make them thicker letters? I mean for God's sakes I know it's a popular logo but those letters are so thin they like they're anorexic up there. So, um I think in almost every city that has been

the issue of having because their letters is just so thin that you barely you can barely illuminate them as it is and it's been a challenge. But again, it's just a font. They're not looking to make a a major statement and like you said is a staple uh logo. I hope I answered your question. Thank you. I apologize if I didn't. I just wanted to make sure that that's what he was referencing. Yeah, I've seen it.

There's a few of them out there. It's again, I think somebody thought about it and came up, you know, that building would look great because uh aesthetically I I maybe I wouldn't have done the foot locker like that myself, but it's it's their logo, you know, it's it's nice. It makes it look like a community like uh it's a branded building and their way of branding a building is their name. Uh rather than putting their they have a big circular logo design I think like in Waterford they allow them to put their big logo. The logo alone by itself without the letters I think is like 120 square feet. You know it's a circular logo looks like a rose you know that sort of thing. And um but that wouldn't be fair here. It just wouldn't make sense. Uh here we just figured the font uh text on a wall as thin as an it's hard to manufacture these things.

Yes, sir. You I I'm I'm stuck on the safety piece. Uh the density of the sign. Yes, sir. Because we you mentioned the trees coming east, I mean coming west, that's old 8 mile. And then you have eight mile coming off of har um is that Harper Woods? Am I correct? It's in an angle. It's like in an angle. So I'm thinking about the rain and the sun as it changes and switches as a senior comes down driving. That's the safety piece I'm concerned about. And then you said the the letters itself would be uh close real close on the building. Yeah. On the building.

The building they're flat. They don't change. They're they're static. Uh no changing or anything of that nature. They're static just flat on the wall. They're elevated relative. I mean, they're high up there. So, there's there's no LEDs. That's my question. Internally illuminated. They're internally all all channel letters now no longer use the high voltage neon. We used to use 15,000 volt uh transformers in there, which was a fire hazard. Uh now you don't see any bulbs or anything in these. They're all internally. It's called an SMD LED chip. It's three chips in one and they're they populate inside of the uh the letters. As a matter of fact, even the faces uh we upgraded from was an acrylic. You guys are familiar with acrylic plastics.

Uh this is polycarbonated which is a fire resistant material used now uh for the faces and it's a solar grade so that it doesn't tarnish or fade in the sunlight. And that's the pole sign just by itself or just the one the secondary pole sign is also LED illuminated. the the internals are all so there's no fluorescent bulbs so it'll be consistent lighting there's no like it wouldn't change up yeah exactly yes that's thank you sir thank you for asking so I I have a question about the um you saying when you when you were referring to the poll sign Yes sir

you were concerned about the distance from which it would be noticed coming westbound on 8 mile is that what you were referring to

well is a fast road traffic. I I think every sign on 8 mile is probably twice the size. Okay. So my my question is the the poll sign according to the the uh to the graphics and everything it complies. So um what were you proposing as far as the poll sign itself? Are you trying to make that bigger or

like like as he said it's it's 13.9 we're asking for 13.9 ft more than the compliance. The compliance is I believe 50 square ft and uh with the technology available see LED signs they don't come in um they're not like pieces of uh dots and we put them together we build the size we want. They come modular. So when we manufacture these they come in 12.6 inch pieces. So when we build them, you end up with this size or completely shrink down to this size. So for this to be the proportion that we did, it just happened to come up to 63.92 square feet

and that's where that size came from is just because we're using standards and also what you want to do in in the future as you do things uh because in your ordinance it should stay you should probably add in your ordinance as well. I think it's important that we do that in Troy, Pontiac, Oak Park. Any ordinance, you're just stating the fact that uh a defective sign must automatically be remotely turned off uh or or must be repaired within a certain amount of time frame. So, when we stay within standard materials and standard things that can be done when we start modifying things like I know we'd like to have a magic number, everybody uses even numbers like hey, let's make it 60 square feet. Let's make it 60 square feet. Let's make it 30, you know, standard numbers like a 4 by8 sort of thing. Unfortunately, with technology, all metrics, nothing comes out to a standard number. So, with this technology, spare parts are available within hours where if we were trying to make it that standardized size, sometimes it's not. Uh that's why you'll see you ever seen a CVS sign or a Walgreens sign is out for like six months, seven months is because they were forced to use a specific size and those parts sometimes takes three to six months to get.

Well, aren't they aren't they ran? You're talking about the LED versus what you're using which is not LED, right? No, these are everything is LED now. Everything whether there's there's a difference between an internal LED and an LED screen, right? So the LED screen unfortunately comes in specific modules which is 320 in millimeters is 320 by 320 mm per panel which that's why I keep referring to the 12.6 in right that's a standard size and those standard sizes when you put them together you end up with that that dimension that extra 13 ft is that 13 n square feet larger which is about I would say about

so my question still remains how far from let's say you're you're at 94 and you're coming westbound on 8 mile. How far do you uh are you trying to get the sign seen? Are you trying to get it seen off of 94? No. Are you I think in reality that's a long way more than a block or a couple blocks away. Okay. Well, that's my question. I'm trying We're not We're not trying to do like the um what do you call those uh gas stations on the freeway where you want to get them before they exit, right?

We're not trying to do anything like that. As a matter of fact, the overall height is less than the ordinances require allows. Uh you're allowing uh 20 20 feet, correct? 240 inches is allowable. We're at 190. We're actually lower than the overall height. So, we're not trying to beat this thing down to, you know, get people to come over from Warren. Okay. Well, that was that was one of my questions. And then you said uh uh you mentioned something about it's not in a neighborhood, but a neighborhood is Hey, Jason. Right.

Yeah. What I'm saying, we we get a lot of um we have we do a lot of we probably do more church signs than anybody in the United States. We we probably do five a day all over the place. And a lot of churches are inside a community. Those signs are completely different. And they all ask me, "Hey, I want a big tall sign." I go, "You can't do that in a city." So those signs are usually limited. The entire height can't be more than 5t height and they could they have to be like 15 feet set back from the road. Uh they have to turn off at 10 o'clock at night because you know you don't want that light even though all these are photo cell sensored so they they actually dim down. Uh na the national average is about 2 to 3% above ambient light. So it automatically register like if it's in this room it'll register the light in this room and only go about 2% because if it goes zero it'll just be black you know it'll just be it'll turn off. So it goes about 3% higher than the ambient light. So you see it won't even not even be as this bright for example. See

how bright this is right? This to me is too bright. So it'll actually be probably 80% less than this uh for nighttime because it just it's light pollution. So that's how that technology works. So, I understand the panels and all of that. I'm just ask I was just asking these questions because the um

the distance makes you know it it if the bigger the sign if it's LED whether it dims or not it's if it's going to be on let's say till midnight whatever the t time the uh store closes or what have you that still affects part of the neighborhood. So that's that's why I asked about the distance and everything different things. I understand the standard panos and different things because if they go important I think is very important because you want it to be you want it to feel as part of the background. You don't want it to be the thing that as you're driving be like a a police car. You know how police car they want that extra blaring blue and red thing. These dims to the point to where it's just an image not even a you won't even can't really tell it's an LED sign because it's a graphic.

Yeah. But you have to think about the the residence in that square you know that between the you know so if it's if it's higher believe there is across the street also commercial it's the point where yeah I see I see where it Yes. So, I don't think there's anything I'm sorry. It's the farthest point. You're done. If I can piggy back off of um Commissioner Williams. Yes, sir.

Um I I think the problem fixed itself because I thought the uh challenge would be the BP sign, which is across the street, but that's since been moved because now it's a Shell sign. The brightness of that BP gas station sign. I thought that would be a a clash with your sign, but it kind of fixed itself because it's not no longer it's no longer BB gas. It's Shell gas. And that sign is totally different than the smaller, but it's a bright sign. And I thought that would be a clash. Yeah. And you know those fuel price signs also, they're they don't dim, right? It stay It stays bright all night long. Right. All night long. They blind you and uh they're not they're not very community friendly, right? I would say. Yeah, I know what you mean. Okay. Thank you.

You're welcome, sir. All right. Is there any further discussion or questions from the board members? Uh being on I have question for uh Moses Ros's counselor. Uh I would ask you to define exactly what is a hardship for the company to bring these signs into compliance. Why can't you? um the configuration of the property itself and then the configuration of the building itself. Um I listened to uh the uh one of the citizens speak at the time of the application and the purchase of the building and um I don't think anybody out this what the sign is going to look like at the time you purchase the building. you never on your on your blueprints, you never get to that point because always signs are a separate permit. And then construction is always different. Like um we just, you know, I don't know any any project that I've out of all seven buildings that we've ever considered the size the font size of the channel letters until it was time to address that during construction. You just don't by your building or place on any construction drawing the size of your your letters until until you're done or you're halfway through construction because generally everything changes especially for your signage or or your brand or your name or or maybe we just wanted to put our logo up there. So they purchased the building without prior consult or review of the sign or the sign ordinances for the city.

I if you want the truth, I've never purchased any property in my life and I'm a developer too in consideration of a signed ordinance. We address it at such time. I mean generally when we're asking for the small amount of um relief that we are tonight, it's really hard to hard to get to this point. This project's three years old and it's taken a tremendous amount of time to determine um how we how this brand should look and how it should be polished. Not just to throw anything up there, but something that um resembles our hard work and effort and and how we want this building to look and how it looks in the community. And um the channel letters here, they're they're meant what the proposed side the size that we're proposing that they're meant for this side of this building. So, what I'm referring to specifically since you asked is the siding. That's all brand new. It didn't have to come down that far. It could have gone up um we we didn't have to drag it all the way down as close as it is to the windows. We could have kept that up further and made made that um siding smaller. You follow me? We didn't have to construct it that way. We could have saved money and brought it up, but we didn't. And so once we got done with the siding, then we addressed the signs and How big should the signs be that um that resemble all the hard work in our our brand? Uh or we could have made installed a different product on the outside of the building. Something that would more um been aesthetically pleasing to put our logo on which is like a a big Santa Claus face. He's s he's Moses Roses. Somebody designed it. It's pretty cool. You have to check it out. But Uh we could have put him there, but uh we've kept this true to every store. All the stores have these these these uh the channel letters. I don't I don't I think the only one that might be smaller is

Port Hiron because the building's smaller, the facade is smaller. So um the front and the back have Moses roses on both the front and the back, but they're smaller channel letters because the building's a lot smaller. And if we were to put bigger channel letters on that, they wouldn't have looked as So it's just the opposite of this. We need just a little bit of relief and with the city to make our building look um the way we need it to look. In Port Heron was the same. We just reduced the size of the channel letters because we didn't need them that big. The building didn't warrant it. So, this is not like we're it's a grab over here asking you, hey, we want these big lights at night so everybody can see us and we pop up. It's not that way. This this is all designed by a designer um who's part of our team and he designs every team. He designs all the hats, all the shirts, all the t-shirts. And so we put a tremendous amount of effort into designing the building. And when you come inside, you'll see what what what we did. It's beautiful. Polished floors. We we we don't we don't go off shelf with cabinets. We have our cabinets milworked. Uh we spent a lot of money on this project. And so we're hoping you can help us keep our brand happy, keep us happy, keep the people in the neighborhood happy. You won't know any difference between if if if the signs were designed um 10 10 5 in way or 5 in the other. At that height, um, we need some help. We need to we need to be able to see it from the street.

Thank you. And thank you.

Any further questions or discussions from the board members? I I would like to say as a a business owner of the of the city, um I did my due diligence and my research for the property that I was interested in obtaining and using for my business. And I did visit the um city prior to me signing or making any commitment for that property. and I did my research to see if the the building or the city would allow me to operate and run my brand the way that I wanted to. So, I think that um as a business owner, you do have to do your due diligence.

Well, um I agree with you. I don't I I don't disagree with you, but under the circumstances of this case is this was a um this is a build to suit and so build the suits on all of my projects that I've worked on my entire life all change and that's why we have times we provide asbuilt drawings to uh to the city as we walk and work with them saying uh you know we're going to change this, we're going to change that and we get permission and we do as builts And so I understand what you're saying, but um um I've never done it in the inverse where I bu I've built my project according to my sign size. I've never really done that. I've always it's the building itself always dictates what it can what can be done and then then then the sign comes after. I've never sort of constructed um a building with the foresight that I should put 24 in um channel letters on the front. Something I guess I could look at in the future, but uh this was almost a complete tear down. If you remember, there was Rex's diner there for all those years and they had the bread basket was there and then that sort of dirty old velving gas station that we had to take out and do some uh work on. So, uh hopefully we've improved it to all of your uh to the entire community's benefit. And so, again, we're not asking for a lot. We're asking for your help to be successful and work with you guys in the future. We'll be good citizens. Mark my word. I say that to everyone. And we've never had a problem in any of our cities. Nothing.

Thanks. Thank you, my my question would be um and I don't So, you're you're saying that everything as far as the building when you purchased it and everything. You you laid out the plan to the city and the city okayed the plan without even thinking about the signage. Is that what you're telling us? It's a separate it's a separate permit. So at the time of application, so if you're familiar with these this project in a global sense, they were applications and they were right in the beginning. Yes.

They were awarded on a merit basis. Yeah. But um no, we didn't the size of the channelers or anything like that at the beginning. It was all, you know, as you move in construction, sometimes you just got to change and I had no idea how long how big the facade was going to be on this one. So, it just needed to be removed in and in in the uh event that this is not approved, how would that hurt your your business if you had to go down instead of going up? Um,

number one. Number two, all the work that we put in. Um, three, I don't see a reason not to approve it. Um, I don't think it's a big request. And how would it hurt? Um, I think the brand name is more visible with these size channel letters from Kelly from 8 Mile. And that's why we, let's be honest, we're a retail store. That's why we picked this location. And so that's the only way to be successful and competitive in my business. If you read the newspapers about what we're where our business is at right now in Michigan, it's like it's extremely competitive and so you've got to have the right area. You've got to have the right location. Uh and we feel we do in East Point and we're not shy about spending our money here. Um and and so I I could have made smaller channel letters and saved money and I could have made the pull sign smaller. I didn't have to do LED. I could have just put my name on there. We're spending $87,000 on signs. 87,000. I didn't have to, but that benefits not only me, I think, and that's why I'm here requesting it, but it benefits the entire community. You will see what this place looks like. Especially the LED signs. They're awesome. Go up the port here and then see it. It's awesome. And uh they just roll specials just like everybody does, just like CVS and everybody else just rolls out daily specials and stuff like that. And then, you know, participates in the community. Uh community our LED sign for advertising events. Um, Pride Week was using our uh in Waterford all week our sign for their event coming up. So, we're like we're deep in the community. So, we work with everybody and you will be proud of that building and you if you've if you've been there before and you've seen what it looked like, you'll see what it looked like. But once we get the flower beds up and everything, it's going to be nice. It'll be real nice. And then not to mention the little dog park that we got going If you have a dog, you can walk it down eight mile and

there's going to be a dog park and so it'll be cute. So, so is it the brand that's in jeopardy uh in jeopardy or is it is it the sign is brand and the brand but your marketing strategy does that take you away from your your your marketing strategy if you're not awarded uh

well it doesn't take me away from the strategy but it improves my chance of success in your community that let people see us do you know how so there's two ways to do When you open up a business, you're either going to have you're going to have the ability to bring in business based on your location. So, picture this. 8 Mile and Kelly is the internet for us. That's why we bought that location. It's the internet. If not, I have to direct people to me.

Marketing and advertising is crazy expensive and it's like pulling. Remember you learned in school where they said uh the next pair of shoe designs for women, they go to their closet and they open up a closet and whatever shoe falls out of a woman's closet is the new design whether it's 20 or 30 years old. We we we don't want that. That's why we picked that location. And that's what most competitors want is a location where you don't have to spend tremendous amount of money directing traffic to you. People driving by can't see you. Therefore, the taxes that I'm going to pay on that building at $38,000 a year, I need to I need to um I need to benefit from that. That's a lot. That's a lot of money. And so, as a result of charging me all those taxes for that corner, you've got to give me some help. You know, all right. Or I would have to bury myself in the middle of Kelly and then go spend $38,000 on the internet and drive the traffic to me somehow. or I pay the taxes to the city because I've got a great location. I've got a great corner. I've got a great location and I can benefit as from that corner. And so that sign will help drive that traffic to me. That's all part of the strategy. It it truly is. And what comes to the better the better location is the taxes. We're not your military in in East Point is, you know, it is what it is. So we'll pay the freight. Help us out. That's all we're asking.

Thank you. Thank you. Well, I know why women buy more shoes now. Any further questions or discussions from the board?

Mr. Williams. Excuse me. You're going to have to talk in your mic. This is recorded. I'm sorry. Are we able to actually vote on this tonight without without having seven? Right. We're just having discussion and the discussion is finished. We'll Somebody can propose a motion. Okay. That being

Mr. Chair, if I could just add just add a little uh clarification. Yes. Um there is a quorum established tonight. So uh the zoning board of appeals can vote on these uh various variance requests. Uh in order to uh pass a motion, there must be a majority of the members present this evening. So of course that would be uh three members. Uh because there are three variance requests for three different signs, there would need to be three uh uh votes made. Um and uh the options would include uh if the uh board feels that uh the requirements in the city ordinance have not been uh satisfied, meaning a practical difficulty has not been established, then the vote would be to deny the variance request. Uh if uh the maker of the motion believes that um uh one or more of the variance requests up tonight have uh met the burden of establishing a practical difficulty, then the maker should then go through uh the um practical difficulty standards if they are applicable and those are contained on both page four and five of the uh planners uh report. Um the board could also make um or approve a variance which is something less than uh the requested um square footage amount uh this evening. You cannot exceed what's been requested, but you could still uh do something lesser than what has been requested this evening. uh but even if uh you wish to do that, you would still have to establish uh and find that there were practical difficulties for the particular variance request.

Thank you. You're welcome. Okay, counselor. So we have to uh make motions uh sign by sign. Yes.

And those are those are when you look on page two of the planners report middle of the page under request uh the planner sets forth uh one two and three what uh the individual uh variance requests are. At the beginning of the meeting, the planner did uh correct item two. Uh the square foot uh variance request is I believe 13.75.

So for number one, it would be a variance request of 34 square ft. That's correct. And then for number two, uh the second sign, it would be a variance request of 13.75 square ft. And then for the pull sign, it would be a variance request of 13.92 square feet. And again, the board could grant something less than the amounts requested, but again, the standard of practical difficulty has to be uh found.

Okay. Page two. Thank you. Make motion. Just pick one. Anyone? I would

Let's start with number one. Then place forth the motion that we vote on the variances of uh Excuse me, you need to talk in your mic. This is recorded. Sorry about that. Yeah, I would take let's take number one and vote on that one if that's okay with the board. motion to approve or deny item due to due to

Okay. Okay. Okay. We're we're learning. I make a motion that we um Let me retract that because I'm leaning towards something else. them kind of more on the poll sign than they don't care. They don't have to be in any particular order. You if you want to start with the poll sign, you could start with the poll sign and make a motion to either approve or not approve and so on and so forth. I want to place forth the motion to approve the uh poll sign based on the uh information that we have.

Okay. Okay. And is that uh motion to approve uh based on a finding that the uh requirements in section 17.06 of the zoning ordinance uh have been uh found with regard to uh practical difficulty standards and also health safety and welfare standards. You want me to repeat all of that? No, you could just in my question you could say yes. That's what I'm finding. Yes, that's what I'm finding. And those findings are contained in the planners report.

Yes. So and again just to repeat it would be uh the variance request is due to unique circumstances of of property. Uh and then the planner goes on examples of unique circumstances include properties with odd dimensions or unusual easements. Uh unique circumstances do not include business, family or financial reasons. So you're finding that uh the variance request establishes that standard. Yes, everything is established.

Okay. and that the variance request is due to unique circumstances of property and is not shared by neighboring properties in the same zone. If the circumstances for which a variance is warranted are shared among numerous properties in the same zone, then the variance request should be denied, it may be better to consider amending the zoning ordinance and you're and you're finding that uh that and then C the problem is not self-created either by the applicant or an applicant's predecessor. The proper interpretation is to ask whether the applicant took some affirmative action that created the need for the variance. Practical difficulty cannot be self-created. Being self-created includes actions of the current property owner and actions of all previous owners. Yes, that's in compliance.

And then D and compliance. Strict compliance with area setbacks, frontage, height, bulk or density would be unreason would unreasonably prevent the land owner from using the property for permitted purpose and would thereby render the conformity unnecessarily burdensome for other financial reasons. Yes. Then e the variance would provide substantial justice to the applicant as well as the other property owners in the district. A red a reduced relaxation would give substantial relief and be more consistent with property design and rights in the neighborhood. Yes. and no lesser variance options are practical. Yes. And then under two health safety and welfare standards, uh the variance will not adversely affect the purposes of the zod or the master plan.

Yes. And adjacent property and surrounding neighborhood. The variance will not be of a substantial detriment to the adjacent property will not alter the essential character of the neighborhood and will not diminish or impair established property values within the surrounding area. Yes. and community of East Point. The variance will not impair the public health, safety, comfort, morals, or welfare of the community. Yes, that'll be. The variance will not create a nuisance such as light, air, sound, pollution, traffic, traffic, congestion, or fire and flood damage. Yes.

I have a motion on the floor. Is there a second? Second. Support. All right, we have a motion and a support. May I get a vote? Mr. Rosco, yes. Mr. Williams, yes. Miss Barani, no. Mr. Troutman, no. And Mr. Wilson?

No. Moving on, we still have items one and two, the uh channel letters. Are we can we group those as one item or do we still need to vote on each one individ individually? I would recommend each one individually because it's two different variance requests, two different signs. Do I have a motion on the floor?

Okay. So, the the first sign would be the larger sign or what are we looking at first or does it matter? The larger sign wants a increase of 34 square ft. So, I make a motion that we um we deny that part for the extra 34 square ft for the larger sign for the reason they for the reason of not um what is the failed to display practical difficulty.

Yeah. failure to display difficulty and the fact that I don't think it would it would hurt the uh the business itself by it being on the building. You can still see the sign. You still have the LED footage. You just have to, you know, meet us in the in the middle because the 30 30 the the length is a lot larger than our comp our uh actual compliance. So maybe if we can cut that down or something and bring it back to the table, I think it would it would benefit us more. So the size of it, what we allow and what they're asking, the difference is just too much.

Chair, is the maker of the motion requesting uh a variance request less than what's being requested by the applicant then under the circumstances? And if and if so then uh instead of requesting 34 square foot um variance something less than 34 square feet would be made. Are you saying they should be less than 34 ft or are you saying they should come within compliance of the ordinance? I think if we if we come in if they can't come into compliance with the ordinance then we have to come with something come back with something less than the amount that they're asking the 34 square feet. We have to reduce that size.

You understand what I'm saying? Even under those circumstances, a practical difficulty would need to be found by the by the maker of the motion and ultimately the board. Well, the practical difficulty of I mean the the the allowance that we're allowing is 50 square feet, right? Right. Okay. So, if we can't meet that, then we have to come back to the table with something that's either in compliance or give us a reason why that extra 30 square feet is needed. And I don't think that that's been properly addressed.

Well, the maximum square footage for a sign in that area is 54 square ft. They're uh proposing 88 square ft. So they would need a var in order to allow that they would need a variance of 34 square feet. Correct. And I I don't think at this time we are able to give that much of a variance as a ZBA board. I mean that's just what I'm proposing.

Are you proposing something less than the uh something greater than 54 square ft but less than 88 square ft? Well, the variance itself based on the where the building is, how it's been presented, I think that we should go off of what we're allowing. if we cut if we have to later on after we do our um project and uh set up set up the new variances and different things like that. I think that we can properly evaluate it then. But it's the way it's written now, the city ordinance and everything. I think we should stick to the variances that we've we've come up with.

The ordinance. The ordinance. Yes. deny it as written with the 34 square ft.

You declaring that motion, counselor, that apply. It's a motion to deny. Motion to deny for failure to establish practical difficulty standard. Very well. I have a motion on the floor. Do I have support? Troutman. Second. support. We have motion in support. May I get a vote? Mr. Williams? Yes. Mr. Troman? Yes. Miss Maronei? Yes. Mr. Rosco? No. And Mr. Wilson?

Yes. Moving on, I make a motion to deny the second item for the request for variance 13.75 ft based on the same grounds as Mr. Williams.

I second it. I have a motion in support. May I get a vote? Mr. Wilson, yes. Miss Barone, yes. Mr. Rosco, no. Mr. Troutman, yes. And Mr. Williams, yes.

All right, that concludes our new business for the signed variance. Thank you very much. Uh, my apologies, gentlemen, but not quite. Okay, moving on to unfinished business. Uh, councelor, are we have the proper numbers to have elections? No, in reading the um in reading the uh bylaws that have been approved by this body, uh the votes have to be by the entire board. And so, unfortunately, I don't believe that uh you can certainly discuss uh the election amongst yourselves this evening. That would be appropriate. uh perhaps a discuss who would be interested in uh the uh the three elected positions, but to actually vote um according to the bylaws that that needs to come from the entire board. So how that works now is the the members um who have that position they hold that position until um their successor is voted on. Are we empowered to uh say impose a or ask for a temporary secretary to fill the office as our last secretary was uh Alex?

Yeah. The the the or your bylaws provide that um this board can designate a secretary, but it has to be a non-board member. Non-board member. Yes. You may want to in the future revisit your bylaws uh to make those adjustments um uh to perhaps uh allow voting to take place of officers without the full um without the full body present. But again, that would be for later uh a later date. Mr. Myers, you had something.

The attorney is defining two things for you. one, we should change our our policies so that you don't have to have a full board to make these kind of decisions in the future. Number two, um he has recommended if you want a a temporary secretary to fill this role, it would have to be a non-board member and that is down to three of us. And so I raise my hand kindly and graciously to offer my services if you so need because you can't use your own board for temporary. Uh chair also if it was uh if the other me the members that were not able to attend uh somehow had a scheduling conflict, this board can always schedule a special meeting uh simply for the purposes of conducting the election uh if it's been established that all of the members are going to be in town or otherwise available to attend that special meeting.

All right. Correct. that or would uh you recommend a uh motion to review the bylaws at a future meeting? You you could make that motion. It's not it's something that you could just ask city administration to add to a future agenda. Very well. I think we'll do that. Right. Uh, I don't think we need a motion for Mr. Meyers to temporary Secretary Force, do we? Do we have to motion that? I I would recommend. Okay.

Thank you. I make a motion to uh nominate Mr. Myers to be a temporary secretary until such time as this board can have duly elected member support. Don't be. I have a motion. Support. May I get a vote? Okay. Mr. Wilson, yes. Mr. Rosco, yes. Miss Barone, yes. Mr. Troutman, yes. And Mr. Williams, yes.

Okay. A next motion to make motion to at our next meeting review the language of our charter so we can possibly bypass this problem with not being able to elect without a full board. I have a motion on the floor. Do I have a second? Second. Motion in support. May I please get a vote? Okay. Mr. Wilson, yes. Clari, yes. Mr. Rasco. Yes. Mr. Troutman. Yes. And Mr. Williams? Yes.

Okay, that goes on for the unfinished business and some new business. Moving on to the second hearing of the public. Would anybody wish to speak?

Good evening. Mary Hall Rayford uh in East Point. I was listening to uh the meeting earlier, but the audio was really bad till the point where it was skipping and so I was hoping to get here before you guys finished. Um thankfully each point police were not out there. So in any what can I say? Um, I'm glad I got here in time to hear your decision because um, I think it was the right decision on all counts and I say that because of my involvement with planning commission and knowing that feelings we can't really allow feelings to direct us but we have to deal with um the written guidelines as they are even if we don't agree. And so I was glad to see that and hopefully in the future um we'll continue to see that and do what's right for the city and I appreciate your time and your effort. Thank you.

Thank you. Is there any other hearing of the public? Jennifer Nicholas, East Point resident. Thank you. Um I feel that you did what I am understanding the role of the ZBA um is supposed to do tonight. I was kind of stunned that questions that you asked were not answered. Um I don't think we ever did hear what the practical difficulty was, what um any of the requirements. I know in the paperwork that was in the agenda, the handwritten um explanations they had didn't address any of the standards. And I am grateful that you all took the time to just not listen to the double talk and things about how great the business is going to be and how beautiful it's going to look inside. None of those things have anything to do with upholding our city's ordinances. The sign ordinance um actually was reviewed once again last year to make sure that everything was as it should be and going forward um that we are going to try and enforce all of the ordinances, signs, lighting, setbacks, um you know, materials that you can use on buildings. And I I do feel that it's important to keep things consistent and unless there is some extreme reason and from reading um your uh board packet. Um financial difficulty is not one of them. You know, just because somebody says that I'm not going to make as much money if you don't

let me have this size sign, that's not a reason to give a variance to our ordinances. And um in this instance, I don't think that was relevant anyways. You know, this is a very successful business. and he said himself, you know, we could have moved the letters up higher and made them smaller. Well, why didn't you? You know, that's you. They they could have found ways to comply with our ordinance. They chose not to. Um I think sometimes businesses feel that they can come into our city and pretty much do whatever they want because we should be so grateful that they're coming into our city. You know, we do appreciate business coming to our city, but there's a fine line. appreciation in being a doormat and um I'm really grateful that you stood up for the residents, our city planner, our building official, our planning commission. Um there's a lot of um it's a big team here um for the city and thank you for upholding what what we asked for. Thank you. Being none, we will move on to board member comments. Mr. Williams. Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, board, and thank you, community. Um, I just I felt like like um two of the three questions that I asked or was it more than three, but they didn't get answered sufficiently. So, I feel comfortable in um letting them follow the ordinance that is written until we decide to change.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Calman. Uh I have no comments, Mr. Baronei. I think like I said, as a business owner, you have to follow the rules and do your due diligence before you finalize um your property, your buildings or whatever you have to do. So boos are in place for a reason. Mr. RCO, I have no comments.

Well, thank you all very much for coming here. This was a hard one. It was a very hard sell and good presentation and uh we stuck with it and stuck to the ordinance. I thank you all for uh your wisdom and your judgment. You guys have a good one. We'll catch you at the next meeting. Uh, make a motion to adjourn the meeting at 8:26. Support. I have a motion to have support. May I get a vote? Okay. Mr. Wilson? Yes. Mr. Williams? Yes. Miss Maronei? Yes. Mr. Rosco? Yes. Mr. Troutman? Yes. Okay. Meeting adjourned. 820. You believe