Planning Commission - Special Meeting

I should have some Okay, we're we're all live.

Okay, great. The East Lancing City Council special discussion meeting of March 16th, 2026. The meeting will come to order. Could we have a roll call, please? We um council member Whan here. Council member Singh, yes. Mayor Pro Griggsby here. Mayor Meadow or Council Member Meadows here. And Mayor Alman here. Uh, is there a motion to approve the agenda? Moved. Moved by Griggsby. Second. Second by Whan. All those in favor say I.

I. Carries. Are we recorded? Oh, yes. Okay. All right. So, agenda item two is uh city council interviews of two law firms who responded to the city's labor and employment law services request for proposals. We have allocated half hour for each of the interviews. Uh we will start with GH.

Oh, there. Yes. I learned so much. question

and uh we are joined uh first by Don Clark and David Gh and we have all prepared questions. I thought we would start with a fivem minute introduction that you might want to give highlighting the highlights of the proposal uh and anything else that you think we should know as fraction. Sure. So again, my name is John Clark, uh, senior partner with J Mark Mullins, been with the firm since 1995, practicing in the labor world for about 30 years. I chair our municipal group, which is nine lawyers, uh, but we are 65 person law firm in the city of Troy. We also have an office and alchemist. Um, uh, labor and employment is my passion. Uh that's what I spend 99% of my time. Megan came on came aboard the team uh as a full-time lawyer in November. She passed the bar but had been with her for about a year and a half and she's already been kneede in negotiations and arbitrations and etc. In addition to being a 32-year practicing attorney, I also teach a graduate uh uh class at the uh Oakland University public labor relations. I've done that now for my second goound. I'm also a certified uh AAA arbitrator, employment arbitrator, and anytime have between five and eight active arbitration cases where I get to play judge, which is always a fascinating thing to see lawyers um and how they operate. You really learn a lot about the profession being on the other side. Um uh we have a vast array of clientele. Uh, in fact, we were just hired by the city of Troy to handle all their labor relations and I just signed an agreement with 54B to handle their labor relations

matters. And in fact, we just handled unemployment matter. Um, working with Nicole. Um, really three main reasons why I think you should go with our firm and I know change is difficult. I understand the dynamics of what's going on now with this circumstance. Uh, number one is the experience. Um, I've handled all facets of labor relations matters, including most notably public act 312 arbitrations. Uh, and I would encourage you to ask the other law firm about their experience in that realm. That's very important. Not that I ever want to get to a 312. 312 compulsory arbitration uh as you probably know is where if the public sector decid you can't reach an agreement that it thrown to an arbitrator who makes that decision and the other side has to know that you're capable and willing to do that and go there. Um uh so experience is huge and I believe that we I hold we hold that experience and um I think that's something that should be given very strong consideration that folds into the next which is competitive pricing. Okay. Uh the pricing I think we quoted is 195 for myself and anything other would be 175. I believe the firm coming in is going to quote you 250. It's a big jump. Big jump. Uh and based on my experience, which I think is dwarfs the others, I think that's a steal quite frankly. Uh and and what does that do? It's not just the hourly rate, it's the efficiency that goes along with that experience. Um the third piece, I know that's always a hot topic, is responsiveness. Uh we are extremely responsive 247 operation incling. And I know mayor that that that was a big uh issue with you is the tracking is now what we've implemented is when an assignment comes in there's an email communication outlining

confirming the assignment. Here's the timetable for a response. Uh and then that automatically is forwarded to my assistant who then puts those those benchmarks or those dates in my calendar with ticklers. They're there. So the responsiveness is there. I was just on vacation for a week with my family and fortunately I spent some time on the phone and texting. That's the nature of the business. In the employment label world, things simply don't go away. They don't go to sleep. It can be a very um labor intensive no pun intended part of the world. So experience cost competitive and responsiveness. Also during our tenure here as general counsel, I was involved with training. I train the entire DPW staff here. I train all management staff on things such as harassment discrimination, things such as counseling, disciplining employees, how to interact with employees, things like um the earn earn sick time act, uh HIPPA, all those things were trained through staff. I was involved in reviewing, editing, and approving policies for the city. and I also performed several internal investigations of some pretty high level positions and those were all entrusted to our firm to handle. Uh so I know the landscape, I know the players, I've known Robert for 20 years. He hired me to assist him when he was at the county to do some work on retirey healthcare and whether they could make changes to retirey healthcare. So and I represent the city of Sagen one of my oldest clients and still is. Um so I've known Robert a long time. I have a good working relationship with Emily, the HR director. I worked with her seem like almost on a daily basis on things. So, I have a a working knowledge. I do have your CBAs. I was I'm familiar with them. I know a lot of these are coming up this year. I was noticing the pirate contract that was inked in 2025. So, it's almost

like perpetual bargaining, uh, which is something that I would try to get us away from. I don't think that's healthy for the labor relations environment. I think that there needs to be some time in between uh between bargaining and and labor peace and and that's some that's something that I would consult on and and would hopefully push so that we get away from that pattern because u it it it's time consuming it's expensive and it it really pulls away from the focus of what these departments need to do which is to provide public service. Thank you. Yeah, for the brief um questions, Council Member Sting.

And how are we doing this? Do you want me to go through my list or are we going to go one at a time? Why don't we go one? Why don't we cycle through? Okay. Um we can defer if we need to. Yes. Yeah, I'm going to ask a, you know, a overarching question and then I have additional more specific questions later, but um why do you want to work for the city of East Lancing?

Because I enjoyed the time that I was here. I really enjoyed I went to Michigan State. I went to Michigan State with both Michigan State grads. Uh it was really dreaming when we were selected to be general counsel. That was something that I didn't expect that they would hire them out of Troy and then it was good relationship. I enjoyed the time that we were here. I enjoy working with both of you. Um, this is like a second home to me. We have an office here. Uh, and I just I just really like the people and that's probably the most most important part of why I want to work here. Uh it's a good opportunity and uh you've got a good staff and just a good looking and that's why I've been persistent in pursuing this you know I've been very persistent because it's something that I want to

yeah I this is my first go around so bear with me but uh

um so you know as a newer member of council Um I'm just trying to get a little bit better insight about process and how the work is done. So my question is city council office has differencing perspectives with public safety policy particularly when there's policing issues accountabilities um in question from your experience what guidance do you typically provide to ensure those debates remain productive while also protecting the city from legal exposure? I asked this because you know we have these strong differences um and sometimes it's kind of difficult to understand where we're standing within law while law and fully engaging with community in positive way. So I I think that information should be provided to all members of council. I'm a big proponent of that. I think that's important one effective tool and I see you have one tonight as a close session. So let's say that we were to embark on collective bargaining. People said what's your philosophy? My philosophy is what are the goals and aspirations of the city? What what do you want to accomplish in collective bargaining? Right? Is it saving money? Is it attracting and retaining great staff? Is it cost cutting? Is it pension and oped? You know, what are the what are the goals and aspiration of council? And then from there we craft a strategy in order to ensure that we can achieve that goal. And the best way to do that is to have collective discussions. You may have a different point of view than the mayor may have in terms of what what's more important. Is it is it retaining? Is it cost cutting? Is it growing the department? Is it getting into other services? And we have those collective discussions. At that point, hopefully there's some general medial demand. Not that everyone's going to agree on everything, right? But at least there can be some general meeting of the minds as to what's the best way to proceed

through collective bargaining so that we achieve those goals. But the understanding that we're only half the equation, right? The union is the other half and certainly they have to have buy in. U but because of my relationships with a lot of these business agents, I know a lot of them all the time. there's a good trust factor there and I believe that that that that carries a lot of weight in terms of bargaining and dealing because there is good faith and and there is a good working relationship. Thank you. What's your process for tracking uh legal and other developments outside the city that might be relevant to our labor issues and communicating those developments to us?

Yeah. So we have um certainly Megan as a newer lawyer has been tasked with uh legislative and court analysis. So she does a semi week or a semiquarterly deep dive into both legislation and court cases to see what's there. We're also members of the Michigan Bar Labor and Employment section. So we get quarterly updates. uh members of the MML MTA provide updates uh through my uh relationship with Oakland University and the teaching that I do. There's another avenue and so when things come in um we're able to digest it and provide information. I'll give you a great example and this came about in later latter half of last year. We start talking about the the big beautiful bill and no tax on overtime

and everyone thinks, okay, well, you don't pay tax on overtime. Well, it's not that simple. It's it's fair labor standards overtime is the only part part that you can actually get a deduction for.

And and so, as you may know, you know, the fire department, police department, they may get double time for coming in off shift. They may get, you know, time for training sessions or whatever it may be. that may or may not actually count towards their deduction for uh on their income taxes. And so we were able to uh put together some analysis and we actually did some trainings and working with our labor and employment clients to inform them how to do it. And so a lot of them what they've done now is they've able to now come up with processes to track the overtime because under the law beginning in this tax year uh the W2 of employees has to have a separate dedicated line item for what is your fair labor standards overtime and what is your deduction associated with that. So we got out ahead of that issue and you know some of my communities we got four or 500 employees city and Taylor city of Troy I mean these are big big big communities like like city East Lansancy

and there's a lot of moving parts a lot of department heads and so we I think that we were instrumental in getting them thinking about these things because I think a lot of people thought it was really on the employee to figure out the law says no it's up to the employer to figure it out and so that was uh something that we got ahead of I think it is very beneficial to our clients. Got it. Thank you. I I'll do two quick ones because then by the time I get back questions um what would be the priority for city council to understand about how you work? So I've got some experience. I retired as a police officer from the city.

So I got 25 years. You're going to have a year and a half from now we'll have a new council. What what do you think is a priority for council to understand on labor law in general? Um I'm not you just you hit with the big picture but what would be some things that you'd possibly have a training on with new council members with the council themselves new council members coming in for the first time?

Sure. So um and that's really part of my course which is what are the foundations of labor relations in Michigan? What are the obligations of employers in Michigan in terms of good faith bargaining? What are what are the different types of you know what's a what's a mandatory subject of bargaining versus a permissive subject of bargaining versus an illegal or prohibitive subject of bargaining. Um talk about the the bargaining process. How does that work? you know who starts, who goes second, how do you know you've reached an impass? What happens if you reach an impass? Do you go to mediation? You go to factf finding you know what what are the what are the various means that we can that we can travel down in terms of trying to ultimately get to a deal

and and so you know just that basic education I think so that when there's a close session and say hey we're going to mediation you know what I'm talking about. Oh okay yeah John I remember you talking okay that's where we are. them and tell me about that. How does that process work? Uh so it would be more of a educational you know from point A to point Z in terms of how how do we start and again that start comes from council right you set policy you set the mandate right and then you give us direction us and the administration directive in terms of where you want to end up so what's what's the road map to get to the end point hope the end

somewhere in the area where you wanted to be in the first place and uh so that's what we would So what's an optimal contract? How long? Um at least three. Okay. At least three years I think is healthy. Even four is healthy. Um because again there's a lot of time and energy that goes into it. But there's so much value in labor piece and as a former police officer, you know that I think we'd rather have our employees doing the job that they were hired to do as opposed to duking it out at the bargaining table. By Duke, I mean in a friendly professional manner. In 25 years, I don't think I had one or two contracts when you actually settled at home. Yeah.

Um, so that right now just to kind of let you know that we've been all over the place, but all the different contracts have been coming due at different times. The reason why fire is just one year is because they're trying to make all the contracts come due at the same time. Just to have a little bit more rather than the me too. Sure. Me too claw is a huge thing for us. Sure. Yes. Um I I'll defer council member S. Sure. Apparently uh Mr. Whan doesn't think you and I are going to get reelected. Ouch. Dang.

Come on. We got to have a little fun. Okay. Um to let's Okay. So, in your proposal, John, you're going to be the lead senior attorney. And I'm Megan, right? Okay, good.

Um I'm always impressed when I remember things I read versus when I hear them. So, um so tell me other clients you're directly managing and how um how you think that's going to fit in with taking on East Lancing as a new client for the labor practice. So the the one of the benefits of the labor world is it's there's a lot of eb and flow, right? A lot of the work is really driven around collective bargaining and and the clients that I represent um some are big, some are small. Um not every one of them is active all the time. Whereas on the municipal side of the world, there's always council meetings, there's always stuff going on. And so that there is there is a greater challenge I think at the at the corporate general counsel level to to do the the balancing act because everything's go go go. The label world is different. Um uh having said that technology is huge right being able to work uh if not if not in person certainly zoom capabilities phone call capabilities is what I can do but I'm used to making the drive. I've made the drive up here for years done it. It's not a problem. I can be very productive when I drive. And a lot of it is just scheduling and making sure that things are working on on land. And uh Joan, who's our legal assistant, she's been with me for 30 years. She's fabulous. She knows she's very good with clients. She's good with setting things up. She's good at redlinining. You know, I'm a big proponent of redlinining contracts. Um you know, collective bargaining agreements. Uh my goal is to have a redline contract that both the union and the and the city would vote on

so that we don't get into language issues after the contract is uh has been approved. So, you know, I almost insist on it. These, you know, in my young in my career, we'd have a a TA sheet. You know, you'd have these bullet points and then they would you would ratify it. The union would get their raises and then they disappear on you because it's like, well, we got to raise this.

Not all the time. That way then if we have especially when you get into things like administrative issues, uh, operational things, you know, things that are somewhat more complicated than wages, it's nice to have a redline contract that both sides approve. They approve the same document. Once it's approved, Joan hits accept changes, signature version, and we're done. And we don't have to do that. So technology has really helped improve our efficiencies. Megan has come on and been been fabulous in terms of working in terms of help helping me with proposals, handling interviews for uh investigations, helping me with training. We just got through a fairly complicated arbitration uh that she was assisting me on.

So, does she do does Megan handle the same client load as you? like she supports any client you're the lead on or does she have her own set portfolio beyond No, they're they're basically mine. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Someday I think she'll have her own clientele, but she's still still basically new in the industry. So

um but but certainly um there is the the the bandwidth is there, the the ability to do it is there, the drive is there, and I'm never concerned about not having enough to do. And like I said, there's others in the group if we need assistance and pulling and things of that nature. But uh um looking ahead, what are the biggest legal risks municipalities face uh in areas of employment and public safety over the next five or 10 years? Is kind of some of the newer things that are changing and how we need to be thinking about that. I'm sorry. What was the question?

Uh, looking ahead, what are the biggest legal risks municipalities face in the areas of employment and public safety over the next 5 to 10 years? The reason why I asked that is because uh we want to stay out of court, right? It's very expensive. I'm sure it's not good community relations wise. And so I'm just curious if there's any things that we need to be thinking about in this pan going forward those two into the public safety.

I mean, training is huge. training is probably the the quintessential from a especially from a law law enforcement perspective, but just from a general employee perspective. As I said, I trained the entire DPW department on harassment and discrimination. Was a it was a two-day process that that I handled. Um, as I said, I trained the entire management staff here on all kinds of issues in terms of dealing with employees, confidentiality issues, things of that nature. We've done uh law enforcement training, excessive force training. We've done trainings on Fourth Amendment, search and seizure, which is a little bit outside of the employ labor employment world. That's really more of a risk management, but certainly those are the kind of services that we can provide that will help us keep us out of court, help us from avoid getting sued.

That's a I like that answer. So, we just specifically talking about force training. Is that like a one-time training you do up front or is it ongoing deal that you do with that or how does that work with your training?

It's it will I mean it it really depends on what the client wants to do and some of our clients like more of our training, some some less. It really kind of depends on the makeup of the department and and what that chief or what the administration wants to do. Uh but but certainly that we're we're available to do that and make ourselves available and certainly if there are updates case all updates and there's always cases coming out on use of force uh search and seizure those things there's always things coming out that we provide updates on. Yeah, I mean the reason why I asked not exclusively to our police department, but we do have a younger force. So just go to show the use force goes up quite a bit when it comes to that. And so that's why I was asking about the training because I think the more training we can get, the better we can insulate ourselves from

absolutely other things down the road. So I appreciate the course of course I will defer to council member sing she's got more questions. I just I have two others I think. Um, just in your proposal in the content, you have a you talk about a 60-day out claw out clause, I think contract out clause versus the draft is a 30-day. I just was wanted to reconcile which one

it's two days one day. It doesn't m I only want to be people want me to be. So, I don't Yeah, I don't It doesn't Yeah, it doesn't matter. I mean, that's really more for the benefit of the city. So that there's a longer if we need a transition where be but again even if it was a one day my transition would be as long as it takes to make sure the client is in the best position possible both coming into a circumstance and going out you know that's vitally we just we just took over as I said for the city of Troy and that was a smooth transition uh in terms of the outgoing firm and us coming in. So but yeah certainly that's that's never a dealbreaker with me. I I I I put that in there just because that was an item that I think is important for both sides.

Sure. Yeah. Mr. Gri, you can do your I don't have any more questions.

Yep. Um it was I was going to ask more about the 312 piece, but um I think I'm going to actually go back to about a year ago, we had an ALJ decision on a dispute. And I'm curious cuz some of that has all between the ALJ decision um versus some of the pieces that have played out publicly. I'm curious if there's a suggestion in that scenario where we're still, you know, grappling working with our commission to um, you know, review the ordinance um, versus what was in the ALJ uh, decision and then what of course is referenced in the contract. So I'm curious for what you can recall through that situation if there's any specific recommendations you would have made.

Uh first of all it was a very delicate uh situation. I I understand that. Um, you know, from afar, um, you know, I'm a big proponent of communication and I I my again my 30,000 foot analysis of it is and and I would get calls from from people who would call me offline and say and ask me question because they knew about my background and and I was like, I'm not really the person to talk to, you know, but but but the questioning was more really more of they didn't have information or they didn't know understand the process or they didn't understand how things transpired where they ended up. Um and so you know communication is key and making sure everyone gets the same communication I think is very important.

Uh gets the same message, has the same ability to ask the same questions and has that information so that it's there. Um, but again, you're dealing with council issues. You're dealing with the ALJ, you had the union, you had Alip. I know there a lot of moving parts there. Yeah. And there's a lot of opportunity for things to get sidetracked as it winds through that process.

Um, and I know that Ann Gabbert was involved in some respects on that because she was providing some guidance to LA on that issue, uh, which I think was beneficial. But um without getting into the weeds, I really think the communication piece is really something that I would have stressed uh and probably would have emphasized uh to a point uh where and even making myself part of that to make sure that they were hearing it directly from me, not letters. You know, you can write letters all day long. Most people don't know half the stuff you're writing or they don't really comprehend or I think direct communication you know presentation communication I think may have gone a long way

but but with the understanding it was a very complicated situation and I understand that yes how long have you worked with the court um so I handled um they had a kind of a sticky situation regarding the creation of a new position And um uh so Judge Greenwell had brought me in and helped me assist with that. And then just recently I received a phone call from Nicole asking if I would uh reconsider or or consider continuing to do work for them. So So I now I have an agreement with them to provide labor employment services and I have a good relationship with Nicole with with the chief judge.

Great. Yeah. Any final comments? Very briefly, we're at 6:30. So, anything else we need to know? I appreciate your time and consideration. I like I said, I know change is difficult. I think a fresh look at the circumstance. Uh, and you know, I think I think the service will be there. I think it'll be very satisfied. Certainly with my experience, uh, you know, that would get unmatched and I think that would go a long way. So, I would really appreciate the opportunity. All right. Thank you so much for coming in. I'm doing good seeing you again. Great to meet you. Appreciate meeting you. Thank you, sir. Nice to meet you.

Good to meet you. Nice to meet you. That talk flew by. I know. That was my life in state government. Every half hour, half hour like book back to back to back back. How's How's George doing? He's good. He spent like I don't know six weeks in Florida. Florida. Okay. He sent me those random text messages, you know, once in a while. It's just Yeah. Same. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm good. I'm glad I should reach out. It's been a long time. See, thanks again. Thank you. Safe travels. Thanks.

I don't mean to have my back to you. Do you think it's rude? Would you tell me? No, because I don't get offended. Okay. Fair enough. There's too many things in this world in life to be dealing with Yeah, it's small to sit back and say I'm offended. I gota um I do the same thing with how our tables are set up now. Now I'm always like this to like I'm always looking down the scar. Oh my. And then every now and then I'll give you

meas. Hi. Like a good surprise. Anybody nature? It's like a rumor. A confirmed rumor. Oh. That I'm Yeah. part of our pocket. Did you not the one I printed out again? You're here to tell me. Gosh. In the packet for tomorrow. How you doing? Oh, not tonight. I whatever I printed off the original proposals, I printed off. So close.

I tried to I think maybe I did. Thank you for clarifying. Some of these teams are still okay.

We are in the second month. Um we have Rosani Schultz here with us who also respond to RFP for labor council. And uh what we'd like to ask you to do is take five minutes and uh highlight some of the things from your proponent that you would like us to know and highlight aspects of your firm and then after that we will cycle through some questions. Okay. So the floor is yours or

Okay. Well, I'll just start, you know, with with very briefly. You know, I think you're all about not as familiar with our firm by this time as you can be. Uh so I'll spare you all the details. I think you have all that. Um the proposal we submitted is to fold in the labor and employment under our existing contract for uh the the existing 5year term. So if you did award it to our firm, labor would be about four years and three months or so. So it would run concurrently with the period of that existing contract. I more recently supplied a a draft. I don't want to be presumptuous. Um, one member of council asked for something. So, I sent what would be a first amendment to the existing contract to do that to fold it in. So, it's just amending the existing contract to bring into labor and employment. Um, and um have any other questions about the firm and how we work on the labor and employment side of things? Um, I'll leave it. the rest of the team to explain. Um, it would all fall under that single contract though.

Any more that you'd like to add introduction?

I mean, I think you all know me. I'm getting to know a couple of you, but I think most of you know me pretty well. I'm very excited. Um, this is Jeremy Romer. He um, well, you can speak a little bit about your experience, but I'm very excited to finally have like backup. Um, as you know, um, even at Keller Toma, I did not have a consistent backup. So, this was one of the reasons I was excited to join, um, Rosetti Schultz is that they hired Jeremy recently and he has a very good background in labor, public sector labor, negotiated many, many contracts. So, um, I feel like I'm pretty responsive to all of you, but to the extent that, you know, I'm not available, Jeremy will be there as well and we can tag team in on issues. Um, so very excited that

and I can give you a little background of where I come. So, my entire career was with the city of Dearbornne. Um, it's about 120,000 people, had about 15 labor unions. Um I was a chief labor negotiator for the last 12 and fire city attorney the last four. So extensive amount of experience collective bargaining uh ADA FMLA the state state court federal court issues. So be great to compliment.

Yeah and um I know and um Steve and Caro can chime in a little bit. I'm still getting to know the other attorneys at the firm, but in addition to Carly, who has an employment background, um Andrea Pike is also with the firm, she has a really strong employment litigation background as well. So, a lot of these issues that we deal with um on a daily basis with HR and department heads are things that there will be multiple attorneys available if for some reason I'm not available to answer those questions. And we also do have uh Andy Braggy in our lancing office who does employment law and I think Thomas Bendit as well. Um maybe others that do um but uh and Thomas is also working on one of the other cases for the city right now. So you might have seen his name on some materials.

Great. Thank you for the introduction. Um Council Member Singh. Sure. I used to live on the near the corner of Michigan and Firestone on the east side of Dearborn. Okay. Your current mayor as a friend. Um uh setting all that aside. Um tell me which is this is a little bit different because we are everyone is supporting the city of East Lancing. But the question is why do you want to bring why do you want to serve the city of East Lancing with their labors? Um, why do I want to I I will say u I'm not just saying this. You guys are one of my favorite clients.

After challenging I mean the work here is very interesting because it's so unique.

I'm not even using quotes. Um I'm not joking. It is it's very unique. It's very challenging as an attorney. you know, when you do stuff, I've been doing this for almost 25 years. You kind of see the same things over and over again, it it can become repetitive. But here, there are a lot of very unique challenges which make it interesting. Um, I will tell you that one of the reasons I wanted to leave Ogalry and come back to the public sector is because I really enjoy working with public sector clients. I think um I like sort of trying to make a difference. I'm not a political person. I don't want to run for office. I leave that to you guys. But, um, I do like kind of being behind the scenes and and helping solve these problems and, you know, kind of working towards the betterment of your community to the extent that I'm able to help on the labor and employment side. Um, so that's one of the reasons why I also really enjoy the people here. um the clients, you know, you make a lot of connections with your clients over the years and East Lancing has been a client of mine in one form or another for many, many years. And I've gotten to know a lot of the people here and I really do enjoy working with them. Um they're very prompt, receptive, you know, to the advice that you give. That's not true of every client. you guys are, you know, you you have a lot on your plate that you need to balance and you always give due consideration to the advice I give, which again is not always the case with some clients. So, I do appreciate that and it makes it nice to work with those kinds of clients.

Yeah. Yeah. uh kind of different because you know I know kind of know how you work and and some of the different things but I guess looking ahead what is the biggest legal risk to municipal municipalities facing you know employment law changes even with the public uh safety over the next 5 10 years is there certain things that are happening in courts right now or certain things that are changing around the state in regards to how we need to be thinking about things and the reason why I say that or ask this is because um you know I I want to stay out of court, you know, and and having things come our way and aim for that. It's really expensive. So, I'm just curious about if there's anything that you guys can inform me on in regards to that question.

One concern is um how much politics you're going to get involved in the court in the judicial decision-m process. I think we're seeing that right now with some of the issues that are going before the courts and we have to monitor that and advise accordingly. uh prior to the current presidential administration uh you know there was an expansion of civil rights let's say in the Elliot Larson act you know there's expansion of civil rights now we're trying to see how is the core how are the courts going to respond to that if those get challenged and things like that so what that means is that all of us need to be talking more monitoring and more importantly informing all of you about where that goes and and the problem is wherever it starts doesn't mean where it's going to end right with the courts right so you have a lot of decisions that are going to be decided at the trial court level go to the court of appeal it all depends And it all depends like who the courts, you know, who the judges are, how they receive it. But keeping you informed along the way, I think is our biggest challenge because it's a lot of quick changes are happen. We started with the executive orders, but that's just one stop. You know, it's go beyond that. So, I think that right now is our biggest challenge. You know, we're trying to do our executive order monitor list and stuff like constantly talking about that. You can always count on Steve has a list of everything. So, you know, monitoring that stuff and we have to communicate that. But I think that's for me from from the overall perspective about the law.

Yeah. And I'm also watching the if there's been some some movement at the state level with minimum staffing becoming a mandatory subject of bargaining that can impact your public safety unit which could you know it's going to change the way we negotiate especially way how reciprocal it is back to avoid like an act 312 arbitration because typically that staffing level the the union is tough to move on but if it's mandatory uh it'll be an interesting climate to see if that becomes a a mandatory subject of argument. Yeah, I was going to say that too. It has there have been attempts in the past. They've always failed, but this one in particular seems to have a little bit more momentum behind it. Um, which is really concerning from the employer side because it's going to create um, you know, if you have to maintain a minimum amount of staffing and you're not there, you're going to have to budget for it, create the positions and fill them. So, um, that is something that I think anybody in the labor world here in Michigan is is keeping an eye on. Um, I think the other thing that, um, is sort of still I'm not sure what its status is currently, but PA152, which is the, um, public health care law, has been a subject of debate in the um, legislature as well. There were changes. I don't think that they affected you guys because you your employees don't pay for health care. But if health care costs rise and there's a change uh in terms of your healthcare split with your employees, that's going to create a huge issue at bargaining. Um currently you guys your employees don't really pay anything for healthare. don't want to be.

So, if I can just chime in just a little bit from maybe a more practical firm standpoint and how we, you know, you said correctly don't want to be sued. If we can avoid that or do things to prevent that, part of the benefit of, you know, Gari joining our team is that she has in the firm a lot of resources. As I've told you before, well, last time I interviewed you, you know, we had 25 attorneys. Now, we have 31. All municipal law attorneys. Every one of us have the same calling. I call it a calling. Um, you know, we're not big powerful personal injury or corporate lawyers. We are lawyers who serve communities and that's we have a calling to do that and already came to us based on it. It's not a joke. It's very serious. We take our calling very serious and having that support in the office. Um, different ones of us might see different things happening in the law and we talk. We talk. We're lawyers. We talk. That's what we do. We talk to each other. We compare notes. We compare things going on. And that hopefully can translate into seeing situations that might be arising in the city administration or the city generally that we can provide some counsel on. And we try to do that in the non-employment arena as well. Maybe you've noticed some of that along the way. Some things that you've heard um that maybe you hadn't heard before. um that of regarding developments in the law. So,

and I will say like the goal of not being sued is our goal as well, right? That that's the place from which the advice comes is to reduce the risk that the city will face liability or be sued. Um so, it makes me happy to hear that we we share that goal. But if you do get sued, resources, right? the the goal is to position you in the best defensive position possible if you get sued or the you know we try to avoid that situation but if we can't calculated risk right we put you in the best position so I have I have a followup question I may

and this is you have to forgive me but this is kind of the element that we deal with so a lot of people in the community think that lawyers wanted to get into litigation because they make more And so I guess just saying that aloud since we're in a public meeting, can you just speak to that? So maybe you can inform or educate the general perception that is comes to that.

Sure. I mean, you know, I think attorneys like us, we get paid by the out, right? So we're going to get paid whether you get sued or not. We have an ethical obligation to our clients to represent them zealously and within the confines of the law. So, I'm not nobody here is going to advise a client in a way that's going to create a risk of liability just so that they could get sued in order to increase our billing. We build plenty. We, you know, we we do plenty of work for you guys without having to get sued. And quite frankly, um, in in this particular context, if you got sued, say, in federal court, we wouldn't be representing you anyways, right? Somebody else is going to represent you. You you're seeing that happening right now. So, that sort of idea that we're going to put you in a position to uh increase our own pocketbook and and get you sued doesn't it doesn't really pan out because there's no benefit to us. In fact, it's contrary to what our ethical obligation is. Um, so that that's, you know, that that's I think a fallacy and I I understand, you know, there may be attorneys out there that kind of practice that way. Um, generally speaking on the management side, we're not we're not looking to create liability for you. It's not good for our business either. If you guys get sued all the time, you're going to wonder why you're getting sued all the time, right?

No, I appreciate you saying that. I think it's important that I hope I didn't insult anyone with that. But it's something you hear uh from the community members because you know I had understanding so I thought it was a good opportunity to kind of get that out there. Thank you. I'm going to do two part because I'm not sure it's going to come back down to me yet. Um I'm sorry. What's your first interview? Jeremy.

Jeremy. Um, can you tell me if you have two new council members, maybe one new council member, and you had an hour with them when they first got on council, what would you talk to them about with I rephrase the question from the past? So, what would you talk to to what would you want to teach a new council member that's just stepping in fresh off the street about labor law?

Sure. So the first thing I always stress with because I've had plenty of new councils is the importance of the historical context, right? That matters. So before we move to change, it's important to understand where we were, where we want to go, and how to get there, right? From a labor context, I there's a there's a give and take with I I appreciate the last question because it's budget, right? A lot of times you're confined by budgets. Municipalities are confined by their budgets. We need to be cognizant of that when we're litigating or doing your contracts. Um, but I want the new council person to understand that labor negotiating that it matters. Your morale matters, your staff matters, all of that. We're on the same team at the end of the day, right? So, I'd stress the importance that that is the goal at the end of the day with budgetary constraints, but how we get there, remember the history so we can move forward and be aligned. The best thing you can do as a council is to be aligned.

So, um, other question, what I'm not sure who would answer this, what is the industry standard as far as city attorneys about So, we've had typically separate firms. What's the industry standard? Is it typically one firm doing both or is it typically several different firms? To to me, I don't think there's an industry standard. I think it's a community by community basis and um I think it depends on the structure of the administration and the contact you know how large an organization is um uh how many unions it has uh what the relationship is with the unions historically things of that nature. um make it more conducive and maybe um financially better to have single unified council uh communication wise and non-duplication issues are eliminated in some ways. Um so if it's possible and if it works for a community uh it's good. So I don't think there's an industry standard because other communities it might not work as well due to the makeup of the union and how tight uh you know it might be a smaller community where you know there's a lot of um and not as great a relationship between management and the unions uh which might make it difficult. Um so you really have to make a judgment call. That's why originally not knowing you we didn't submit for labor cuz we didn't know you. we've gotten to know you and

and you

and here we are because we we wouldn't be here if we didn't and you can tell that because we didn't submit originally six months ago or whatever, but now we are because we see that this in our view as a community and the way you're set up administratively and and so on, but it'll work. That's how we kind of put it out here. I'll just tack on Steve and I were talking about this earlier that you know we've really kind of here seen over the last several months that interplay between the city attorney's office and the labor attorney. Um I've probably talked to Cargo more in the last three months than I've ever talked to him before in my life. Um and it's you know all related to issues that are coming up here. Um, and so it's nice to kind of bounce ideas off of each other because um, in your community, again going back to you guys have some unique issues. Um, we he he comes from a perspective that maybe I'm not quite seeing. I'm coming from a perspective that he's not quite seeing. And so together we are problem solving for you guys um, kind of very globally, right? not just looking at the labor issue or not just looking at, you know, the city attorney type issues, but looking at um and I think being in the same firm makes it a little bit more um cohesive, right? Nobody we're no one's going to step on each other's toes. We're going to be collaborating because we're colleagues um and we work together.

Thank you.

It works. So, it's working in the time we've been here developing relationship with all of you and then building this relationship professionally and we've known each other for a long time. Uh, I think Steve and I are are telling the truth when I say this is a big addition to our firm and and part of the reason is because it works, right? It works here and it's a transition uh that will be fluid and that can move uh smoothly. But going to that, yes, it is nice having someone similar experience, similar backgrounds, dealing with the same issues and then yet still getting a new um insight on that. That is a nice it's a nice team especially the other individuals that are involved with the firm as well too in these issues and it's nice. Jeremy as well too and his depth of knowledge he has from dealing with a large community, a diverse community with several issues that they have to deal with that is rare to get right. So Steve and I are very happy to be addition to this firm about this, but it not only benefits us, it tremendous tremendously benefits our clients. And if I could just say um uh about the uh question follow up on that, we're about long-term relationships, right? We're about long-term relationships. Unfortunately, there are lawyers out there that just throw everything bill out of the file as much as they can, right? That's not how we do it, and that's how we never will do. We're about building long terms. I pride this out that we have 30 year uh 30-year clients with our firm. I've been there 25. They were there before I started, they're still there now. I know I had something to do with that. Same thing with Steve and these two as well joining as well. So, we're about the long term. So, whatever short-term gain you might get for making money, that's not for us in the long term. And I think our our reputation is built upon that. Appreciate that.

And by the way, Jeremy comes to us from a community that had, you know, you handle both union and general counsel. Yeah. It was and the labor code at the same time. Yeah. So, it was in house. It was all in and I thought that flowed very nicely. It gets everybody on the same page. I think that cohesiveness that I spoke to is is very important between the administration and the council when we're talking about issues that affect all of your city staff. Right. So, I think that's very important and it often cuts down on duplication.

Sure. Well, I just just I guess for the record, there's a couple of questions I already heard responses to through the dialogue thus far. One is talking about how between Gary and Jeremy, you would manage kind of the engagement um you know with our contracts and any other labor issues. um to um you're you're talking about the efficiencies that are gained by having one firm servicing multiple aspect of the work. Um so I just want to say I heard answers to those two things. One one question I have recognizing something specific to East Lancing with our ALJ decision last year and the interplay which you know is has been referenced between you know our police oversight ordinance um our contract negotiations. I'm just curious if there's any when you reflect back is there anything that you learned along the way that you would recommend to us? Yeah. Uh, it's a good question. Um, and one I've thought I've been thinking about as we, you know, there's been so much um, I don't want to use the word conflict or drama, but there's been a lot of push back, you know, in the last few months, and there was initially push back after the contract was negotiated. Um, and I do think that, um, my primary job is to advise you guys on the labor, right, the labor law, the implications of that. Um, and I sort of leave it to you ultimately to balance these other um, competing interests in terms of community transparency, accountability, those things. Um, but I do think that there's room within the advice to also

take those into account. It's something I've been learning as we've gone along these last several months. Going to the Ellip meeting last month was very helpful in that regard. Um, and I think it gave me some insight that I didn't necessarily have before in terms of um, what mindset maybe we should be bringing to the table when we negotiate with the police. We can't have Ellie Pac be part of the bargaining team. It's not appropriate. We can't really have them provide insight directly to the bargaining team. But I did encourage them to bring their concerns to council so that council is informed of those concerns and that they inform the bargaining position we take when we go into labor negotiations. And I do think that that's a valuable um approach to take with this particular issue. Um because as I've said before, we are definitely going to get proposals on it. And I think last time we bargained and they were in the dark and they had no voice. Um and you know, giving them a voice is is is we got to be careful how we do it, right? But I think that there's a way for them to come to council and for those concerns to filter down into our bargaining position. Um, and it's what I encourage them to do. And you know, to the extent you have relationships with them, I think it's important that that that that happens, right? That we hear these are the things that are really important to us. We can't always control how our goes. As you know, we engaged in a risk analysis last time and reached a a conclusion and ended up with the contract we ended up and we may end up doing something similar here. We don't know yet. Um, but I think a lot of the hard feelings stemmed from the fact that they were left out of that process completely. Um, and I think that we could certainly do

something a little bit better this time around to prevent that or at least reduce that. I don't think I really have I learned from the last interview. This is kind of a bad question because it's not really good good thing but um try to sum it up a little bit better. So um you know on council we have different opinions about things and how things should go and sometimes one may think this way and one may think the other way. From your experience, how do you how do you navigate through that to get us all on the same page? or what's best? Is that is that a clear question?

It's a good question. I mean, it's a it's the reality, I think, of working with um a client that's made up of multiple people, right? And multiple perspectives and and that. So, um I you I mean my approach and I'll let everyone else join in is I try to be as objective as possible with the advice I get, right? I will lay out for you what the problem is, what I think the solution is. I think you've probably seen this when I talk to you guys. And this is my recommendation. And you know, it ultimately I don't know necessarily that it's my job to convince you, right, to accept what I'm telling you. um it's my job to make sure that you are fully informed of what the legal risks are, re legal benefits are of a proposed course of action. Um, and so that's typically how I sort of approach uh when there's diverse sort of opinions amongst the body is just give you give it to you as straight and objectively as I possib possibly can and lay out risks. if you know if you're if you're wanting to do something and the mayor's want to do something else, I will lay out the risks for both proposed courses of action and and kind of hopefully guide you to the right decision or at least what I think is the right decision. But ultimately, you know, I let you guys kind of walk yourselves through that. And I've never found um at least with this body that your differences prevent you from sort of accepting the legal advice and following the legal advice. Um I think everyone you know works very well together in that in that regard.

Yeah I I say even though we may not agree I think we have very great relationship working relationship and coming to a conclusion that we all think is best for the city. Yeah. Anyone else want to add to that at all?

It's honest with you about the law too. You know if you want something you ask about something we tell you start with the law right start with the law and then listen and then listen and see what your take is where you want to go with something. Uh but then I'm also going to give you candid answers in return, right? So uh if you want something that's again that that's not consistent where the law is at, we'll tell you, right? And tell you the risk, if you want to move forward that fight because as Gary said, ultimately decisions you up to you guys, but at least you'll know from us what your chances are, right? And we're going to give you answers that you can understand and that we'll all understand that we're on the same page when we leave that, you know, that this course of action might not be the greatest, but it could be worth the fight, right? At least we're advised of all the options. And I think that's what we're supposed to do as your council and uh you know in this role that we serve. Uh if it's a pure advocacy role that's a little bit different you know we go that router litigation there that then I'll flip sometimes and go in there. But in this role in this role guiding you advising you uh we we have to give you clearcut advice based upon how we understand the problem.

Thank you. So we are just a hair after 7 o'clock. Is there anything in final comments that you'd like us to know about your we haven't covered would be important for us so to register.

Okay, great. Well, thank you all for coming in. So, that concludes uh item number two uh discussion of um city council's interviews responding to the city's labor and employment law services request for proposals. Um, I think we can make a brief recess and then we'll return in a few minutes and then move to the next item on the agenda. Thank you for

Okay, we are back in session with a brief recess. Uh the next item on our agenda concerns a close session. Is there a motion uh concerning item 3.1? Move close session close session to discuss or consult with city attorneys regarding privileges uncontal correspondence that is exempt from the disclosure of state law as allowed under subsection 81H of Michigan openings act. Okay. A motion by green second by whal please. Um council member Meadows here.

Yes. Yes. Council member Whan. Yes. Uh, council member Singh. Yes. Mayor Prom Griggsby. Yes. Mayor Alman. Yes. Okay. We are session.

Are we live? All right, we are returning to open session which brings us to take a motion to to go to open session to leave uh no and declare a quote. So we are return to open session item 12.1. Upon return to open session, city council may take action on matters discussed in close session. Are there any motions?

Yes, mayor. I have a motion to make. I move to direct the city attorneys to proceed in the manner recommended by the city attorneys in their attorney client communication and as presented in close session including but without limitation issuing an attorney client privilege written communication to the human rights commission regarding its handling of the complaints submitted by Mr. Smith and Mr. Woods and to request that the HRC enter into a close session and review and discuss the attorney's legal correspondence and advice. Motion by Meadows, second by

Second. Second by Whan. Uh, any discussion of the motion? All right, seeing none, all those in favor say I. I. Any opposed? That motion carries unanimously. Uh, and the city attorney is so directed. Which brings us to item number five, communications from the audience. Is there any audience to communicate? Uh, no. Seeing no audience to communicate.

There's one audience member that's in here. Um, if that audience member wants to communicate, you can unmute yourself. See looks good to me. All right. No communication from the audience. Uh we are at item six. Is there a motion to adjurnn? So moved. Moved by Sting. Second by Whan. All those in favor say I. I. And of course we are productive.