Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

order this planning commission meeting. It is October 16th at 6 p.m. I'm going to start with the flag salute. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. [Music] Good evening. My name is Dan Burke. I'm the current chair for the Douglas County Planning Commission. Um, I'll allow the commissioners to introduce themselves. from my left,

Jacob Gibbs, Tim Allen, Andy Owens, Michael Whitmer, and then if staff would introduce themselves. Sha Gibson, divisional business manager. Uh Josh Gibson, senior planner, and Jeff Flairbuck. I'm the planning manager.

All right. There is, as they were stating as you guys came in, and if you haven't, please do. There's a sign-in sheet in the back along with some agendas, I believe, in the back. Um so please if you want to speak tonight or so on make sure you sign in. Um first item on is the minutes from our previous meeting which was September 18th. So I'd be looking for a motion. I make a motion to approve last month's meeting. Second. Okay. Moved and seconded. Any other discussion? All be in favor say I. I. I. I.

I'm going to refrain here. We got one abstained. Everyone else I Okay, on to the first item. So, the first item is a quasi duo hearing from IE engineering. This is planning department file number 25-024. This is a referral of a request for a major amendment to planning department file number 24-018. um plan development set amendment creates a total of 28 lots instead of 14 lots on 31.11 acres instead of 9.01 acres as pre previously requested. Again, this is planning department number file 25-024. Um do any commissioners have any conflict of interest, exparte or any site visits?

No.

Okay. None being heard. So, qualified parties. We do have a qualified party list. Um, in favor, we have uh Winchester Farm LLC, Carl Kaufman, the title holder, IE engineering applicant, applicants representative, neutral, city of Roseberg, opposed, Bonnie, I'm not even going to try to pronounce your last name. Very, thank you very much. On behalf of Saddle Estates, HOA, um, Malcolm D. May LLC, Dennis Fran Stra, Dorothy Bear, CJ and son Hyde, Carolyn Williams are opposed. Uh those outside notice area who need to be qualified if applicable. opposed was Beth Griffin, Angela Olinger, Richard and Janice Wilin, Leonard and Terry Huffman, Frank Messa, Misa Messa, Todd and Kristen Coins, Ryan and Kim Dustin, Jim and Mary Evans, Kh Gary and Dennis Dong, Eric and Shannon Johnson, Christine Scott and David and Victoria Hawks. So, if there is someone on here that should be on there that would like to speak tonight, I'd ask that you stand up and speak and give me your name and your address. So, is there anyone else that wasn't named on there that would like to speak tonight? Okay, come on up and give me your name and address. And if you're uh this would be those in favor or I'm sorry, opposed. Sorry. Go ahead. Okay.

Bruce Sconce I live on 402. Martha,

is there anyone else? Thank you. Okay, come on up. Barry Witworth, 216 Strauss Avenue. Barry Witworth, WHI T W. Okay, thank you. Robert Nana Rippy 115 Martha Drive. What was your last name again? Rippy RPY. Okay. Uh Tim Bear, HOA president, Winchester Creek Association, 504 Winchester Creek Avenue. Okay. Thank you.

Okay, those are all those that opposed. Okay. Did we have anyone else in favor that would like to speak tonight? He sent it out. Anyone else uh that would be neutral that would like to speak tonight?

Yeah. Okay. We've got a lot of folks here tonight. Um so we're going to put a threem minute time limit on. Um and that'll be per individual. If you if someone's going to repeat the same thing, we just ask that you come up and basically say the same thing. So we try not to narrow it down, but we have a lot of people here tonight, so we want to give everyone a fair chance to to speak and so on. So all right. Okay. Now we think we are ready for the staff report. Good evening chair honorable council commissioners. I am submitting uh exhibits 1 through 13. Please note that on the submission that you guys received last week, there was two aerial maps mentioned. The only one. So that one pass right through. Okay, this is a major amendment planning department file number 24-018. The purpose of the major amendment application is to allow for an increase in the number of total lots from 14 to a total of 28 lots. Planned development is allowed in the R1 single family residential zone per chapter 5 of the Douglas County Land Use and Development Ordinance or Dudo. The first planning decision for the subject property occurred in 2016 to create the Winchester Valley Plan development consisting of 21 single family dwellings to accommodate occupants focused on low impact environmentally conscious living to be clustered within a 3.01 acre unit of land. The Winchester Valley Plan Development then underwent a major amendment in 2024. This amendment changed the number of 21 single family dwellings to 14 individual single family lots. A major amendment to plan development 24-018 is being sought through this proposed

project. The Douglas County Land Use and Development Ordinance at section 5.100 establishes the purpose of a plan development. The purposes of a plan development are to provide a means of creating harmonious planned environments through the application of flexible and diversified land development standards. To encourage the application of new development techniques and technology which will result in a superior living or development arrangements. To promote the efficient use of land to facilitate more economic provision of housing, circulation systems, utilities and their maintenance. To promote energy conservation and use of renewable energy resources, to preserve to the greatest extent possible significant landscape features, and to utilize such features in a harmonious fashion, and to provide for more usable and suitably located open space and recreation facilities than would otherwise be provided under conventional land development procedures. To meet the plan development requirements, the applicant is proposing to build container style residents that are a relatively new development technique and technology built to increase energy efficiency and to be fireresistant. The layout of the plan development is designed to preserve and enhance significant landscape features, to dedicate 24.34 plus or minus of the 31.11 plus or minus acres as permanent open space, and to construct two nature trails and three picnic areas. There are additional applicable criteria that need to be reviewed. That would be Ludo chapter 4 land divisions. Review of the applicant's request is subject to section 4.0000 to section 4.100. Other provisions. Review of the application is also subject to compliance with Ludov article 12, the R1 single family residential zone, policies and provisions of the Roseberg comp comprehensive plan, the city of Roseberg

and the Douglas County urban growth management agreement and supplemental standards and the general planning principles found in Ludo chapter 1 section 1.025. As of this as of the writing of this staff report, 21 comments from 17 individual properties were received. All comments received show concerns or opposition to the proposed project. These comments are comprised of numerous sections including traffic concerns, property values, neighborhood character and livability, fire danger, environment, wetlands and wildlife, drainage, utility and infrastructure strain, density, school capacity, and local need for housing. Our recommendation based upon the findings, planning staff recommends approval of a major amendment to planning decision 24-018. Set amendment to create 28 total lots instead of 14 lots on 31.11 acres instead of a 9.01 acre as previously requested, which meets the criteria for chapter 4, chapter 5, and chapter 3 of the Douglas County Land Use and Development Ordinance. I am through with my staff report.

Thank you. Okay. At this time, if the applicant or the applicant's representative would like to come up and give testimony.

Yes. State your name, address, who you are.

I'm Carl Kaufman. I uh I live in Vancouver, 2401G Street, Vancouver, Washington. I was born in Myrtle Point, Oregon. about 60 mi to the west of here. When I bought this property from uh Sid Lyen, he was he he made me tell him I was born in Bal Point because he said I can't sell this to a Portland developer. I won't be able to show my face again. So I I say that to hope hopefully just kind of use his wisdom on that, I guess. Um it seems to me like um this so Winchester Ridge was a a a project that I developed uh about 2008. I I remember that because '08 was a really bad year. We sold half the lots and we were finished in the second half and everything just stopped. So um when we finished it, we had we had we sold lots very slowly through the rest of the the next few years and just sold the last one a few years ago actually. And this property at the end of it has always been a question of of mine. What should I do? I'm sure that most of the people here aren't here because it's being developed. They're here because um because we're talking about putting container homes on it and I'm in the container home business now. So, I'd like to start this all with just a show about container homes. I think I just like to put all that to bed right up front and then I'll talk about the other um themes in the on the on the you know the adverse side of this conversation. Um so if we can start this up this is we've we've shortened this up. I think it's about 8 minutes. It'll it'll uh it was a lot of it is me talking because there was a film taken that is on our website that was easier for us just to grab. We tried to cut it down to where it's not too long and and and wordy. Um, but just so we all know the building that it shows up front and there's a video about it and then it'll just go through some different pictures of of

homes and then it'll stop and I'll talk again. Um, the the the unit it's showing is called the deluxe model. It's two containers with a bridge that we call built between them. And the bridge, you'll see it. It's 8 ft wide. and we make them different widths and and all that stuff. It's a two-bedroom, one bath home. Um, that building was built in 2018. It's it's uh between Oregon City and Cani where we started our business and but the movie was taken in 2021 just to give a sense of how old that was. It was the very first one that we built. I'm not as proud of it as I am of the more current ones. And whoever's running that, is that you? If you want to start that up, I'll just kind of stand beside so people can see around me.

Hi, I'm Carl Kaufman and we're standing on a lot in New Era. New Era is just south of Oregon City between Oregon City and Canvi. Uh this is a site of a old lumber mill that was removed years ago. It's also the area that we incubated Relevant Building Company. We uh replaced an old uh pole barn that was here with a new pole barn that's now here. And inside of that, we constructed the building behind me and the building off to my side over here. Uh the deluxe right here is made up of two shipping inators with a bridge between them. The bridge is all stick built. [Music] So here we are inside the deluxe river model uh built by relevant building company in Oregon City. The uh this model is is designed with this high bridge section in it. It adds a huge amount of uh volume architects would call it. It uh it's a 900 ft feels like 11. Uh, it's a really really comfortable space. We put the kitchen and the bathroom all in one container. So, all the plumbing is is kind of localized. This section between the two containers can be spread. This is 8 ft. They can be 12 ft and that becomes a two-bedroom, two bath. They can be 14 ft and that becomes a three-bedroom, two bath. Or they can stay at 8 ft and it's a two-bedroom, one bath. All different options. There's so much you can do in the center session. I like this because it's not all just container. I really like that this has this wood accent. Kind of feels like a northwest kind of a home. So, this is this is a very comfortable feeling for for me to have. It also has clear story windows up above, so it gets a lot of light in. And we've actually motorized a couple of those so we can just uh push a

button and vent that out. Uh a lot of customizable options in in all of the homes that we build, but this in particular has a lot of flexibility. So, this kitchen area is designed to take advantage of the view uh that we have out here towards the river. Uh this u this kitchenet area here is feels like a booth. We used reclaimed lumber that came out of a barn uh being built in or being torn down in Lrand. We fabricated this. It'll hold about surprisingly nine people there, which is a pretty good crowd for a small space. [Music] One of the misconceptions about container buildings is that they're all the same. I don't watch a lot of uh reality TV shows about containers, but a friend of mine asked me to watch one one time. Uh a fell and his wife were demonstrating the containment that they had built themselves in Oklahoma. Did a good job. But it's interesting that you could tell since I have a trained eye for this that there's literally no insulation to speak of in it. You cannot take a container home and treat it like a wood framed home. It cannot be insulated with fiberglass insulation. If it is, it will it will get condensation. It will mold. It will turn into a mess. So, if somebody doesn't use uh closed cell spray foam at the right quantities, they're really going to have trouble in it. So the the thermal barrier in a in a metal container is is very very important. [Music] We want a lot of glass out this side of the window on the back side. We got a train track. We wanted zero glass over there. One of the abilities that we have is to be able to move windows around very easily. So we can enlarge them, make them smaller. We can do a lot of things with them. We can move doors around. Uh this is the this is the

living room. comfortably holds six or seven people. And then as we walk over here, you see, you know, we're big on barn doors. Uh this is our bathroom. It's got a 4ft shower, washer and dryer, uh typical uh vanity, and and uh other items in there. [Music] So, I got to tell you, it feels a little bit weird to be in the bedroom with you guys, but here here we are. We're in the master bedroom. It's a little bit tight in here. Remember, this is the 8ft bridge that we're in. So, if I was in the 12T, which is the the smallest one shown on our website, or the 14T, the larger version, this room would simply be bigger. But back here, we have a walk-in closet that's about 6 ft deep. It's very comfortable, very large. So, this is the second bedroom in this house. And you can see it's got a reach-in closet here. It's a very comfortable space. This particular building is the most complicated I have to explain to people and I like the uh opportunity to be able to do this on video. But the merits of this is that this unit is just a smaller footprint, right? It's a very livable footprint. I don't feel like I'm in a a real small space and and I could comfortably live in this space. This unit costs maybe $250,000 uh sitting on somebody's site all done. And um we think that is a a price that is competitive to wood given the designs certainly given the durability and some of those elements that we can that containers just carry. But the but the deluxe is probably one of our most popular units. People really are drawn to this style. We also make this in a mini version like a mini me. The mini deluxe is a 20ft deluxe instead of a 40ft deluxe. It'll be a one-bedroom, one bath unit with a loft on it, which kind of takes some of the sting out of that second bedroom that you don't have. So, we're really excited about that. It's a It's a really good unit for an ADU. It's

It's a unit that I'll be building at the coast on a very small lot that that fits well on. We also sell our homes in four different phases. So, somebody can buy just a shell with windows cut in it. They can buy a a watertight shell with windows in those holes and and a a little roof over it. They can buy something that's built through insulation, which mean it has electrical and plumbing that are roughed in and insulation sprayed over, or they can buy it completely finished. But so our our price list on our website builds all that out, but it never includes the price of land. [Music] [Music] Yes. [Music] Okay. [Music] [Music] [Music]

[Music] [Music] I love that. Hey, hey, hey. [Music] [Music] [Music]

So I think so we get all of our permits for our houses through the state of Oregon. We permit them through we permit them through the building codes division. They come to our shop in Oregon City. They inspect them there. Then we move out to the job site where we got a permit locally for the foundation and the planning commission planning the planning approvals for the house and all that kind of thing. So the reason I wanted to show that is because we got about 50 different types of homes that we've had permitted now and we got about 100 that we've built and they're around Oregon. We can build them in Oregon, Washington, and Idaho. We're now sending them up to the north slope of of Alaska. Uh, I get a call from those guys. They're they're, you know, they're experiencing perafrost melting. They're trying to find things that can house people. They don't have any supplies around. So, you know, there seems to be a clear demand for them. Our shop is right now full of containers being cut up for somebody. Um, I want to I want to just sort of talk through some of the themes that we've that we've heard from neighbors around there. So, I've listed, you know, everybody's going to categorize these differently, but I think we tried to go through and look at at all of the comments that were taken and how many of there were and what they were related to. And so, these were sorted by the large the largest number at the first and they worked their way down. So, the first one was was a conversation about traffic increase and safety. Um, let's just go to the next slide. So this this this you know that dark streak right to the middle that looks like a snake is is uh is Strauss where it hits Highway 99 and Strauss is a urban collector or something urban minor collector street. When we built Winchester Creek, we could have narrowed it up, but we built it to the same width

because we knew that we had property in the back that was eligible to hold 200 homes and and based on its zoning, right? R1 zone. So, we said, well, we don't know what we're going to build back there, but let's make this road wide enough that it can it can take the traffic. We were not required to build it that wide, but we did. We were not required to add sidewalks, but we put sidewalks on it, a sidewalk on one side because we wanted to have have people communicating and and walking back and forth on the street. And likewise was with street lights. The county didn't require them, but we put them on because again, we wanted pedestrian traffic out there. I've never really known what we were going to build in the back. Um, let's see. But I but I believe in terms of from a traffic and safety standpoint, you know, if if if Winchester Ridge had never been built because somebody argued that we couldn't get traffic up Strauss, it it is just an extension of Strauss now, right? So in my mind, an argument for tra about traffic doesn't have a lot of merit. Um and we're only putting uh less than 30 houses where we could we're zoned to put 200 houses. So the next slide is going to talk a little about why about why I'm doing container houses. There's two things going on here. One is I honestly don't know if container houses are going to be better uh financially back there or not. Um but but at one time we built houses on uh Winchester Creek and and my sons helped me build them and we also built them up in uh Win Winchester Ridge which behind Costco. Um, I developed that as well. And you know, we we've always kind of thought about climate change as being

something that we want to build to avoid issues with. And so we were building houses that would be doublewalled houses um extra extra lot of extra insulation. Really tried to build them efficient. And what we learned is that, you know, they didn't save that much money. They cost more money to build. We didn't want to build anything different. and and what when we got done building the house and selling all we made it what we would have made it we just sold a lot so we said well let's not worry about the houses built a lot but let's find a different house so we decided well let's build smaller houses let's build them like pole barns so um this this happened in uh in 2008 we were building this house in Roseburg and that was up on property above um above the airport, let's say, and and we were just building this as a model. So, that's a 24x 24 pole barn. It's a really efficient to to build to insulate. I have an office in a pole barn that I've had forever. It's in Oregon City. I'm an excavation contractor there. Um uh I I I find them really useful. But if you go to the next picture, we got vandalized. That's a picture taken in the same exact location of that that like you know a month later and some kids got came up and burnt that house down. One of those kids has done some other crimes and he's now in jail. The other one I don't know what happened to him. But when I looked at this picture I said well they wouldn't have done it. It was made out of a shipping container. And that is literally what got me thinking we're going to still build small but we're going to build in shipping containers. And so we started relevant building company. Um I think we go to the next one. This is uh so I've talked about traffic increase and safety in my mind anyway.

I've talked about uh let's talk about fire safety a little bit more. It's interesting if you talk about to fire to people in fire marshals or trained in in that I get when I have done that I've gotten different perspectives on it. Most people tell me that um uh they don't think a container would be any protection for um a fire in in a forest, but that a grass fire would move so fast that you could probably bunker down and get through it. I don't really know. All I know is it's not going to be kindling when it that it's going to add to the fire. So when I see places burn, it's because that one house catches on fire, the next house catches on fire. I don't have a really good argument for how we keep that center section of that picture from burning. It's the same as any other house is built, right? But but we put metal roofs on everything. We we think there's an advantage in having them for fire. I'm not saying they're fireproof. I'm not saying you can live in one. I'm just saying they're not wood. And uh and so I I've talked about fire safety as as kind of as much as I am planning to. This this third film is going to talk this third video is going to talk about tree separation. This is kind of all about the separation with the neighbors. A lot of people here from Wild Fern and Winchester Creek are feel that there's a there's going to be some value impact on houses. Um, so you can kind of tell what's trees here and what's not. That little trail that runs to the as I'm looking at to the right around that connects Wild Friend to Winchester Creek is is a the road that's existing and and it's kind of the path that we're taking with our road around. Um, the next slide is just going to show this in a fashion that you can kind of see the tree cover. These these are areas that are heavily

wooded. You can see that the houses are already built in there on in concept on this. And so when we talk about neighborhoods, you know, it's my expectation or my plan that we'll have a gate. We'll have a gated neighborhood for these smaller houses and we will have a lot of separation between us. And I'm pretty sure if you went out there, there might be one or two sight sites you can see a nextdoor neighbor from, but that's it. There there's no place else. We've clearly bundled these together. So, there's a lot of common open space. So, we have, you know, under 30 houses in what what do we have? 18 acres or something like that there. 31

31 acres. I mean, there's a there's a lot of open space there. That is those those three conversations I just had represent 34 of the of the comments that were made. Right. And then and then we start stepping down the list. The next one is access uh to areas they currently use for walking. I I honestly don't know what to say about that. People walk on this property all the time and and and honestly uh if somebody would have come to me and said, "Hey, can we still have access?" I probably would have said, "Sure, I'm going to build that into the system." I don't know if I feel that way after coming down here and have have all this much lopsided of a of an attitude about it. But but uh but it's it's private property. Just like if someone says, "Well, you know, can't walk on my property." Okay, I understand that. So, I don't have an answer for that right now. Um, the next one, number five on the list, which had seven comments about it, was talking about density. As I said, we're zone for 200 house. We're going to build less than 30. I I don't know what I don't I don't have any further conversation to have about that. Um, Alex is going to talk about a pump station that we're modifying to uh manage the water on this. Uh, I think that that's an engineering conversation that'll be better than mine. um concern about low-income residents. So, I've restored 300-y old buildings. I own I own two of them still. They don't make any money. They're horrible. But one's right downtown Portland. I have I have mostly one-bedroom apartments and and it stays full all the time. There's a lot of people that need one bedroom. Uh there's there's you know it's it's it's real easy and

um fulfilling to build large homes. It's also fulfilling to build small homes. You can see by what that film said that this isn't just a container sitting out there with two or three people living in it. These are these we get comments all the time from people. We just we just set a home in Fall City which is west of s of Salem and Joe told me my my son told me that the people said, "Joe, we've had remodeling done and these the quality of these is so much better than we've seen." And we hear that a lot. We we really take pride in the quality of these. Um but with regard to um lowincome residents, we don't look at it that way. When I that that first house, that deluxe model that we first showed was a a two bed, one bath. That house, that first house I bought in about 1974 was a two bed, one bath house. I bought for 20,000 bucks. I was chasing a low price house when I started building these things. And now what I tell you when I said on that that you could put that for 250 on somebody's lot, that movie was made in 2021. This is 5 years later. So that's that's not even true anymore, right? And it pains me to say that. But um but that two-bedroom, one bath house, as soon as we got it done, people wanted to see I need a second bathroom. And so we we have not yet built Well, we did two. We built two of those. But but I'm still chasing that two-bedroom one house because I know there's a large population of baby boomers my age and younger that are that are looking for that. Um uh next comment had three people. Need for more public comment. Here we are. Uh the the ninth one down had three people about environmental concerns. There's always concern about environment. the fact that we're possessing such a small

portion of that acreage and leaving the rest of it um you know as it is I think kind of speaks to our concern about the environment and um and changing neighborhood character. Well, right now, you know, again, my position on it is that's that's a piece of vacant land that people want to keep vacant that, but I want to put houses on it. Um, and so that's kind of all I got to say. Thank you. State your name. And

Chair Burke and members of the commission, uh, my pleasure to be here tonight. For the record, my name is Alex Palm. I am the principal at IE engineering uh and I am the project engineer and I apologize for my scratchy voice and coffin. I just got back from my first parents weekend at the University of Arizona and came back with a fraternity flu apparently. So I'm dealing with that a little bit. Um I've been designing subdivisions for Carl for 20 years. Um longtime client and really proud of the work we've done over the last two decades. Uh I would first like to remind everybody that we already have approval for a 14 lot plan planned unit development located at this site. What we are specifically requesting is a ma is a major amendment to that approval to modify it from 14 lots up to 28 lots. What we are requesting is allowed in the existing R1 zoning. We aren't requesting any zone change or anything that isn't outright permitted in the Douglas County Land Use and Development Ordinance. I'd like to spend a few minutes explaining to you why we are specifically asking for this amendment. In this 30 acre parcel, the limiting factor for development is water service. The site sits above the city's uh water service zone and it's served by the Winchester Creek pump station. There is no city reservoir in this area. Uh nor is one planned. Uh the pump station is it and that that's all that's ever going to serve this area. It currently serves 11 homes located at the end of Winchester Creek Avenue. And when it was originally designed, it was designed to serve 25 homes. So the approval we have right now for the 14 units plus 11, that's 25. Uh that was the plan. Well, since we got that approval, we've been working diligently with the city of

Roseber public works department to try to figure out a way to expand that pump station, put some new pumps in it, uh so so we could put some more houses up here because, you know, frankly, 14 lots on 30 acres, um not a whole heck of a lot of development and Roseberg needs housing. So, in the last few months, we were able to again work with the city of Roseberg uh public works department to figure out a way to modify those pumps so we could serve 14 more houses. So, the whole reason we're here in front of you today with for the major amendment is to uh is because we were able to figure that out with the city of Roseberg on that pump station. U that being said, this is it for this area. We aren't going to be able to expand the pump station anymore, nor would the city allow it. A reservoir is never going to get built in this area because it's just not a big enough service area. The the the economics don't work. And that's one of the reasons, too, why we're putting so much of this area in protected open space. It'll be open space forever. 28 units is is the most we can ever put in here. And it's all because of water service. regarding the development. Gosh, I was kind of laughing uh this morning when I was thinking about it. So, I moved back to Roseberg in 2004. Um, and the very first subdivision I designed when I got back here was Winchester Creek. And I I vividly remember coming to the same commission for approval, different people. Um and uh uh getting all the same letters, complaints, fears from the folks on Wild Fern about Winchester Creek. Uh that was that was my wealth or my uh introduction to the not in my backyard area. Um which is still with us. I am currently batting over a thousand presenting developments where the neighbors come and say, "Man, we are so

excited about that." And and and that's fine. I mean, everybody likes that empty vacant piece of property that's right next to them. And and they want that to stay forever. Um but what I want to let you guys know, and I hope you can see in this, is that, you know, we knew these concerns were coming. Um, we we knew the letters we were going to get and we have done everything we can to lay this out in a way that limits the impact on the folks on Wild Fern. Um, and and and to be respectful of what they have and not getting into what they have. Um, we've left a 200 foot forested buffer between what we're developing and everything on Wild Fern. Um, we have some pictures, but when you're standing on Wild Fern, you're not going to be able to see any of these units. Um, the lots that are closest to Wild Fern, which on this layout would be 19 through 28, there's actually a ridge there that goes up and down that blocks any view corridors. So, the folks on Wild Fern aren't going to see those units. Those units aren't going to see the folks on Wild Fern. We did that purposely. Uh we also put all this open space in there that's going to be protected. It'll be wooded forever. Um we also laid this development out in a way where we are using the existing logging roads for the main roads and those logging roads were put in 40 plus years ago by the Lyans when they did some logging up there and we did that to limit our disturbance. We are also not connecting our road to the end of Wild Fern Drive. No traffic from this development is ever going to use Wild Fern Drive. It will all use Winchester Creek. And again, when we

designed Winchester Creek in 2004, we made it wider than it needed to be knowing this was going to get developed someday. And that someday is today. Um, we are going to leave and actually improve the gate and uh, locked gravel emergency access road that does go down into Wild Fern and we're leaving that. So, no matter who you are, where you live, whether you're in this development or you're on Wild Fern, if there's a an emergency or specifically a fire, there's two ways to get out of here for everybody. um we're not uh impact or we're not connecting into their water system. We know the folks at the end of Wild Fern Drive has terrible water pressure. Um as I said before, this is going to be completely served by the Winchester Creek pump station. It's a totally separate system. It will have no impact on anybody's water pressure and isn't even tied into their system. We're not connecting into their sewer main. So, we're not gonna have any impact on that. All of this sewers is out Winchester Creek and and when we designed Winchester Creek, we we designed it specifically for that. Um, and then drainage. Drainage is always an issue. So, condition of approval number 11 addresses the drainage. So, we have to do a drainage report. We have to show that we're going to put in facilities that aren't going to increase the runoff from this into the creek that runs behind a bunch of people's yards. Now for reference, the entire drainage basin here that runs down into Wild Fern is 300 acres in size. This development is 30 acres in size. Of the 30 acres, we are paving and putting rooftops on three acres. Okay? So of the whole drainage basin, we're going to make 1% of it impervious. That 1% impervious, we will provide

detention. We'll have to document it. there's rules in place um in the ludo that dictate exactly how we have to design that. Um and again it's it's it's condition number 11. So uh that that's something that we've got to do. And I just want to you know once again say that that we really did consciously lay this out to try to limit the impacts for all the folks on Wildfire. Um and and I hope that can be recognized. My last comment is Roseberg needs more housing and more housing options. Um, as a community, we don't need more million-dollar houses. It would be wonderful if everybody could afford a million-dollar house, but that's not reality. We need more houses in the $300,000 range that hardworking people in our community can afford. Young folks moving back to our community can buy, retirees on a fixed income can afford. That is a fact. That is a fact. this subdivision will provide that type of housing. Teachers, healthcare workers, waitresses, bank tellers, you name it, are going to live here. It's going to be an awesome place to live. Uh walking trails. Um if you haven't walked back there, it's in this absolute gorgeous valley and and I'm really proud of what we've designed. So with that, we respectfully ask for your approval of this major amendment. Thank you. All right. So, at this time, um, going to approach if I don't know if the city of Roseberg had anyone here. Do we know? I believe so.

And then, was there anyone in in favor besides the applicants and their representatives? Okay. We'll go ahead and start with the oppos. Again, you got a threem minute time limit. Like I said, you don't need to use it all if you don't need to. If you do, that's fine. Um, and if you're going to basically be coming up and repeating the same thing, I just ask that you you just say basically the same thing quickly so we can try to give everyone an opportunity. So, we'll start with the first one here. Um, so Bonnie Dartman for Saddlebut Estates. Apologize if I still got your last name wrong. I'm horrible with names. So you can state your name and address.

Hi, I'm Bonnie Dowerman and I live at 480 Wild Fern Drive. So I'm just down the street from this neighborhood. Um, I want to thank you all for the opportunity to speak. Um, and I want to let you know that I'm not just speaking for myself. Um, we have several of our residents here. We have an HOA with 37 homes and I speak on behalf of those 37 people, 37 owners. Um, so thanks again for the opportunity to speak. Um, so I didn't realize until I I met with Alex Palmlex last week and I didn't realize how traumatized he was by our uh our neighbors back when the uh Winchester Creek development came through. We we did express concerns back then and we you know we've expressed them today and you've got some of that stuff in front of you. You got the written information. Um so I want to say to Alex, thank you so much for your time to meet with us. um the main concerns that we talked about, you know, I I went through my list and my concerns that I presented on paper and I I basically just, you know, went through all of those with Alex and he responded to those questions and I really appreciate it. And I think one thing that really helps in this situation is having more information and knowing what this development is all about. Um so I think a lot of us were concerned because we didn't really know what it was going to look like and what what the design was all about and all those kind of things. And so I appreciate uh Carl your information that you provided today and that really helps us all understand a little bit better. Um so when we met with Alex uh the main concern that I had left for him was the drainage issues and one of our neighbors here tonight has had numerous you know her backyard is just ditches basically of all the drainage coming down through her property. And so I really appreciate Alex's time, excuse me, to um go through that with us and to understand what the concerns are. And so he mentioned that it's possible to kind of reroute the water and filter, you know, send it into

a culvert and avoid our neighbors backyards and and all that kind of stuff. So we're not going to have any more uh hopefully not any into a detention basin.

Yes, detention basin. Yeah. Well, I learned that. Did I? Maybe I learned it. Anyway, um so so he's what he's saying is, you know, to hold back the rainwater and to try not to have it all coming down, you know, just down into our neighbors yards. And so it all has to go in the creek. We all understand that. But to have these um you know, sort of catch basins holding the water back. So I hope that those uh changes we discussed will be written into the plans that they'll be part of your um you know, future plans going forward. Um, and then also the other concern we had was about the rec recreational areas and kind of putting them a little bit farther away. And so it's great that we may not see these um these neighbors. Um, but you hear them. You know, we we hear our neighbors on Winchester Creek and I'm sure they hear us, but you know, it's helpful if you could have those uh recreational areas moved. Um, so again, we appreciate um Alex's time. And then my other my other um question for you guys, and I'm not sure how to present this. It's not really uh you know necessarily opposition, but it's just request for more information. Um you know, what are the HOA rules in that would be in place? Uh are these owner occupied? Who owns the land? Is it all going to be rentals? That kind of thing. We'd like to know. Is that time?

Yeah. Um and then the other question is who's going to build them? Are they all built by relevant or would there be other builders that would be able to um come in there? We just don't have a lot of information about it. So, we would appreciate that. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you very much. Okay, the next one will be Malcolm D. May

is not here. Okay. Mennis and France Stra, are they here? No. Okay. Uh Dorothy Bear, my husband's Okay. Yep. Come on up. State your name and your address. And Well, I'm not Dorothy. Hey, I think she made that very clear.

Tim Bear. Uh, and I reluctantly serve as president of the HOA for Winchester Creek. Uh, I've been involved building six homes on Winchester Creek. a licensed contractor as well as a real estate agent. We've lived there seven years. I know Carl. It's nothing against Carl. He's a great guy. I consider him a friend. Uh and we knew when we we bought the lots in Winchester Creek that there was going to be development on up Winchester Creek. My concern are, and some of them been already stated, are when Winchester Creek was put in, we have a 1,400 square foot minimum size home that we could be built. Okay. And that, but it it would be actually it's uh it's bigger than that. 1,800 40 square ft single level, 1,450 if it's a twostory. They're on halfacre lots, but the lots are very challenging to build on. All those lots sold in 2005 or most of them did. Uh after we moved in, built a home at the end of Winchester Creek, uh I got to know Carl. He was gracious enough to do a lot line adjustment so we could actually get a driveway into the lot that we had. Uh, a lot of the, you know, the roadway is wide. It's a great street. The problem being a lot of the homes that are built on there, they don't have parking off the street. So, you're going to have parking on both sides of the street for a lot of these homes because of the steepness going on the uh on the north side of the property of the street uh that runs down to the creek. It's very

steep. And on the uh south side, it's it's hill ground and it's really steep. Uh and some of those honestly lots will probably never be built on because the challenging and the cost to go in there and develop those lots. I in being involved in building six homes on this street, uh I was pretty frustrated with eye engineering and the way they were laid out just because the difficulty to build on some of these lots. Uh the concern that I have on on on up the on up the creek or on up the street uh Carl's proposed development of these tiny homes is uh one valuations. I mean most of the homes up Winchester Creek are probably valued between half a million and a million dollars. Okay. You can't tell me it's not going to impact the valuation of those homes moving forward. Uh, are the home these tiny homes or container homes that are going to be built, are they going to sell those lots or are they going to lease the lot?

Yeah. And I don't feel like they're going to be very affordable if they're going to lease those lots. It's going to be like a a a nice mobile home park. Okay. Thank you very much. And water pressure is an issue now and it's going to be worse. And I hope the Steve Roseberg can do something about it because in the last six months, there's probably been six occasions where we have really low water pressure now. Thank you. How come we only get three more? I want to say

just so many people. Just to give everyone a fair opportunity. I know. Um CJ and Sean Hyde again. I apologize if I did not get your name totally correct. I just want to ask a question because based on state your name and address. Oh, sorry. Sorry. I'm really bad at all this stuff. Um CJ Hyde, I'm at 572 Wildfire, so I'm like real pretty close. Very close. Okay, go ahead.

Yeah. Um my question is looking at the lot sizes I I understand that you know we looked at one of the bigger ones you know mostly and I yes he's he showed a lot of the smaller ones I guess my question is based on the lot sizes what's the proportion of the much smaller ones to the larger ones would we be have so like Bonnie was saying I'd like more information I'd like to know that um and of course everything you know, everything else. And also too, just a quick question. I know they're metal, but you said there was stick built in the middle, so therefore that would still be a fire hazard. Not that, you know, any house is going to be a fire hazard, but um I was just wondering about that. So, just more information. So, that's all.

Okay. Thank you. So, Caroline Williams My name is Carolyn Williams and I live at 601 Wild Fern Drive. I didn't know I was on the list to speak. So, which is all right. Um, we've talked a little bit about the concerns and I wished I would have brought some pictures to show you what my concern is. And um, I'm not worried about getting new neighbors so much as I'm worried about the drainage. I'm the one that has the ditch that's 12t deep that keeps sloughing off my property. I've lost several feet of property and um and this I believe is the second a different place for the uh covert and so it brings water even from the south where the covert used to be. It was mostly from the east and now it's bringing more water because it's coming from the south as well as from the east because it's all been directed to the one cover. And so, yes, you expect to have rain rain big storms, but um my concern was with all the with all the um pavement and everything that more water is going to be coming down to that covert and I keep losing property because it it goes down there because obviously the water goes down there. So, if there's a way to mitigate that, and

we've talked to Alex and he was very cordial and and uh understanding, but I'm still I'm still concerned that even a pond holding pond is going to keep enough water away and I don't know if it can be directed to anywhere else. But that's that's my biggest concern is that I keep losing property and u that's mainly the concern. Thank you. Thank you. So, Bruce Scott and state your name and address again.

Bruce Sconce and I'm a little bit farther down Strauss and I have a couple of concerns. One is the traffic right now. It is terrible. People probably know me. They see me walking my dogs twice a day. I have two little wiener dogs. I'm out there all the time. But it's scary on this crowd. It's a 25 mph zone and it's 50 m an hour a lot of times and people don't like me. I'll get in front of them. I get flipped off. I get all kinds of stuff and it's not pretty. So, we have to figure out something about the traffic. The other thing I'm concerned about is our property value. My wife and I moved in there in 2002. They were all customuilt homes for Stoneuilt, but it was called Lykan Land. Glenda Lyen was head of the HOA. There was about 10 pages of them, all the rules and stuff. And that's the reason we moved there. You couldn't even paint your house without the committee telling you if you wanted to change the color, the roof, so many square foot. A lot of stuff you couldn't park vehicles on the street more than 24 hours. RVs had to be behind a gate or hidden back in stuff like that. And um I just don't want to see my property value go down. Right. And

that's about it. Thank you.

Thank you. Barry Witworth. Barry Witworth at 216 Strauss. I'm going to talk about Paige Road. Why talk about Paige Road? Because it leads to Thor Circle. When Thor Circle was built, that was the only access to Thor Circle. The major access to Thor Circle these days is Strauss. Whoever planned Strauss decided the street was okay, not put sidewalks. Maybe that saved the developer a ton of money. So, no sidewalks up Strauss, period. There are seven culde-sacs off Strauss. There are no sidewalks. The dog walking community, the Bruises of our neighborhood walk around all the time. The only sidewalk between Stevens and the top of Winchester Creek is the start of Winchester Creek. And the developer there put the sidewalk on the right hand side heading up the hill. People walk these these roads a lot. Now, why do I mention Thor Circle? Just as Bruce says, if we're coming from town or excuse me, if I was a Thor Circle resident coming from town, he's not going to go down past the post office to to Paige. Particularly not in the last year. Why? Because now Stout Paige has gone from a 35 mph street at the beginning before Thor Circle to a 25 mph street and it's 20 during school hours. So they say why do I want to go down there and drive when I can drive 40 50 m an hour up Strauss. We know the people on Thor Circle go up Strauss and Aster they go up Strauss simply because we walk the neighborhood and we see oh that's the red car that went by me that Bruce flipped off the other day doing 50.

Now let's talk about the development. I walked the development the other day right to the very top right to the end of the property on the right hand side. The first side has got the the concrete um what do you want to call it? Drainage uh curbing and it's pre-made by the concrete guys. I went up the other side and we talked about fire. I lived on Richest Drive which is way above the movie theaters for 30 years. We had one fire on Maria Drive and the building was halfway down before the fire engine got there. Why? Because it's steep. Well, if you go up Winchester Creek before you get to the gravel where it is now, and let's presume it's all going to be paved. Is it going to be paved? All of it going to be paved. Okay. To go up the second route where the additional homes are going to be built. That is steep. I walked it and I ride a bicycle a lot. So, I know what and 6 to 10% graded and it's all of that fire engines will not get there before the place has a chance to burn. Okay. is Carl the builder. Carl's showing us good-looking properties. In fact, totally surprised me what you can do with a container home. To find that was a container home. I was surprised. He's got a 1760 ft three-bedroom, two-bedroom home. What would be the price of the home?

I don't know. Okay. What's the price of the lot? The developer develops a place, doesn't know what his what his house is going to cost because he's he's the builder. Doesn't know what his lot's going to cost, and he's the developer. Thank you very much. Thank you. Uh, Robert Rip and state name and address if you would.

Uh, Robert Rippy, 115 Martha Drive. Our driveway is on Strauss and that's my main concern that that other guys have already voiced it. There is no sidewalks in the neighborhood. Everybody walks in the street, rides their bikes out in the street, and people do, I know it's not the developer's fault or any fault of you guys, but people do fly up and down that damn road all the time. And and that's our complaint was, you know, they look like beautiful units, be proud to live in one, but we're concerned about the traffic. And that's that's the gist of it for for me and my wife anyway. So, thank you.

All right. Thank you. There are 28 or 29 built homes on Winchester Creek. 28 additional homes will have one and a half cars. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Uh Tim Bear. Here it is. Oh. Oh, sorry. Just go on the list. Now, now he's going to be D. Yeah, you can just come up and say your door. A Beth Griffin.

I'm Beth Griffin. I live at 110 Wild Fern Drive and I'm here to tell you what it's like to live at the bottom of the hill. Um, I am bordered by Grey Squirrel, Wild Fern, and Paige. And there's a drainage ditch in front of my house. There's drainage below me on Page Road that even in a moderate rainfall right now is just gushing debris coming down surface and through the ditch. And it's flooding my property regularly. It's flooded so bad that it's gone across Paige and down into the neighbors below me. And um I reported this to the county several times and um they did come out at some point and put some rocks in there to try to slow the water flow, but the whole thing needs to be modified and you know made modern and then maintained. I don't think it can handle more surface water or water through our current drainage. Now I've heard about the creek but that's on the other side of the road from me. So, I just wanted to share my concerns with you and hope that um with a project like this, even if it's approved, that there's consideration for that because like Carolyn, I'm that ditch is just eroding my property on two sides or actually down the back too, but that's off a gray squirrel. So, I you know, I can mention that, but it's not directly related to this, but the rest I believe isn't. Thank you.

Thank you, Angela.

Hi, I'm Angela Olinger. I live on Wild Fern Drive. Um, I just like to say respectfully, I don't think he is in compliance with chapter 4.1-0, the adjoining roads. I think uh what people are talking about going down Winchester Creek, you have to drive down Winchester Creek quite a ways before you hit the adjoining road. I'm not sure what what you guys want as far as that's concerned, but I picture an adjoining road sitting at a stop sign and then turning left and right. You have options when you're coming out of the subdivision, and there's no option but to go straight at this point. If you turn right onto a gravel road, then you'll go down to, you know, Wild Fern Drive. But there are no adjoining roads. So, I'm not quite sure how he's meeting that requirement. That's just my opinion. I'm not an attorney. Also, the school capacity. There's a chapter six that talks a little bit about submitting a plan. I'm sorry, Alex, but that should have been submitted and I I didn't see anything to that effect, but I don't know. it it's a study that says how the children in the community will impact the new children in the community will impact the school and that hasn't been submitted. So technically that gives all of you guys the the legal right to decline this um amendment request at least temporarily until we could figure out um something a little better as far as the container homes because I'm concerned they won't sell for 300,000. I think that I've seen a lot of homes that are better and bigger and prettier out at Cooper Creek and in Southerntherland that are sitting empty and they're 300,000 and they're beautiful looking homes. You just need to do a little bit of work on the

inside. So, I think the marketing is a little off, but the planning looks good and everything else could be tweaked because I think Alex will work miracles for for Mr. Kaufman here, but I don't think that marketing will sell. And I think they'll end up sitting empty and probably have to do section 8 cuz I don't see even pulling in 300,000. They're beautiful, but I think he's got Vancouver real estate eyes and it's not Douglas County. We're the fifth largest county in the the the state and it doesn't make sense to stack people on top of each other. I understand he has to do that for building purposes, but it's not what I think Douglas County is about. I think we have more land than that and we could do better than that. And if we just take a little bit of time to think about how that could happen, we could use him as the builder. Fine. We could I think that's great. Fireproof homes, but they h it has to be done right. So, I just I'd like to take a minute, take a reprieve, go ahead and and not approve it and see if we can come up with a better, more marketable home, larger, not not uh ADU. That's just my two cents. Thank you.

Thank you,

Richard and Janice. They here. No. Uh Leonard and Terry Huffman.

I'm Leonard Huffman. I live at 437 Winchester Creek Avenue and reluctantly I serve on the HOA board and all most of our concerns have been stated already. My biggest concern is going to be my value of my home. The street is not nearly as wide as this gentleman has made it out to be when you get traffic, when you got cars parked on it. an extra 40 to 50 vehicles up and down that street every day who knows how many times. It's not going to be the best neighborhood to be in anymore. It's one of the reasons why we bought our house up there was because it was a nice peaceful low traffic, quiet neighborhood. Um far as water pressure, we have terrible water pressure up there. Every time we lose power, they have problems with the pumps. It's Yeah. Anyway,

and we're from Myrtle Point, too. So yeah, thank you. All right. Thank you, Frank Messa. Todd and Christine Cohens, Ryan and Kim Dustain, Dunston, Dunston, Jim and Mary Evans.

I'll pass Bonnie Dan Express. She blamed. Okay. Okay. Gary and Denise Dong. Uh Eric and Shannon Johnson, Christina Scott. Okay. And David and Victoria Hawk. Okay.

Okay. This time we'll give the applicant an opportunity if he would like to come up and uh give a rebuttal. Oh man.

So, you know, I I almost feel like I should turn around and face the audience here, you guys, because I understand I understand all the concerns and um and I'm not adversarial to anybody here. I just have I I I look at it like this. Um, I feel like I'm I'm a really part of the lucky generation. I know a guy that fought the Chosen Reservoir of Korean War, which started a little bit about a year before I was born. Um, I was in a senior in high school when they uh when they closed down the Vietnam War, I didn't have to go there and I was too old to get anything else by the time it came along. So, I feel like I was a really lucky generation. I think uh I I feel really strongly that climate change is is the biggest biggest beast coming at us and I and I and I and I'm afraid of what AI means to jobs. I really feel strongly that you know our era of building bigger and bigger houses and and and riding that wave and it's just so expensive. I know I know they're expensive in Roseberg. They're just different expensive they are in the Portland area. Um I told said this earlier when I my starter home was a $20,000 home just under 20 grand and now a starter home in in Portland area is 350 at least and it just it just it it it makes me feel bad. I'm I'm intent on building something smaller and uh and I think and I and I hear when someone says it's I understand so the different the I'm going to try to answer some questions here. It's my intent to sell these homes. I don't want to own a bunch of rentals. I don't want to have a mobile home park with with houses that I built

on it. These are all just fee simple homes like everybody else's with valuations. I promise I will not complain if Winchester Creek pulls evaluations of our houses down, but I don't think we'll pull theirs down either. I think we're separate uh locations and I I think it's independent. I will be gated. I think I I will tell you we built we built a container home for some people that now you know people different locations buy different things. I I'll grant you that. I don't know. I don't know what these will sell for, but I I I'm expecting to be I don't know what I don't know where I'm expecting to be. They're they're expensive to build. The land's expensive. The development's expensive. I've got 10,000 a lot into these already just just just to get to here tonight with the engineering and and and and looking at different things. And my first house cost 20,000 for the whole thing. I haven't even turned a piece of dirt yet. And that doesn't pay for any of the land yet. So, you know, it's hard. And and it's not hard on me. I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm just doing this because I want to finish this piece off to to move on. So, they're going to be owned. Um I don't think they're going to affect valuations. I don't think they're going to affect it any more than any other any other place you drive by to get to your place. I don't think going past this to get to the next place is going to change anything. Um, I said earlier that I don't think that we are fireproof, but I feel like we are less kindling than and I think that's what happens is one house burns and the next house burns. If is anything is all of our roofs are made of metal. We don't have ease that th cinders up into them to a attic. Uh, and I they're just different. And I and I'm not saying they're fireproof. It's not code requirement to be fireproof. That's why we have to put fire hydrants in. But you know, but we have that little advantage. The drainage, you know, you're people that that are talking about drainage. I'm sorry about that. And and I know

that Alex said we're going to be changing the dynamics of that basin by 1%. I'm sorry about that 1%, but but again, you have to understand we're going to be putting about 12% of the houses that were entitled to be built there. We're not asking for anything special. We're building something much much smaller than than almost any other developer I can possibly imagine would come down there and and want to do. All of our houses will be at least two bedrooms. We'll have two bedroomedroom, one bath houses. Um we're doing that because uh again, I'm trying to really focus on people that need a place to live. And I don't mean necessarily I mean retired people. I don't mean people that are indigent. I don't mean people that are homeless. I'm not trying to save the world in that direction. We we we build containers for homeless villages that are going in Portland. We're doing nine of them for a homeless village right now. And and but that's not what we're building out here. Um somebody asked me about costs. I've developed literally over a thousand building lots and I have guessed at the cost of them until I finally said I'm just going to quit guessing because I never I never know what it is. I know this though. I know that I've made money because of appreciation every time. I don't think that's right, but I know that that's how that has worked for me. I would start thinking this is going to be $40,000 lots and by the time we got them built, they were $60,000 lots. And so, it didn't matter what I thought they were going to be. And and honestly, I don't know what these are going to be. Um, I've heard talk about sidewalks. I just want to say again, that was a voluntary sidewalk that we put in. I wish they were every place. We need more public transportation. I'll support that all the time. Um, traffic is another another another, you know, boooo. Um, it there's a 30 acre parcel of property at the end of the road that you can put 200 houses on it. We're going to put 30 on

it. I don't know what else to say about that. We can't make it any smaller. um marketability that couldn't be my writing. Um honestly, I don't know if we're going to sell container homes up there or not either, but I'm going to try. We're going to build three of them and see. And if that doesn't work, we'll build stick houses, but they're going to be living units. They're going to be similar sizes anyway, whether they're container homes or not. I think these will make sense, but we'll see. Um um and and I think that's my feedback for the for the

Carl I have one question for you. Have you guys looked at or contact the city of Roseberg about seeing about the speed limit there to to because that's one common thing you hear throughout this and I don't know have you guys looked at that as as far as lowering the speed limit on that main road. I have speed limit. It's already 25 miles an hour. Yes. And it's county road Strauss. So it is county. Okay. And we've had problems. John Handling used to live by me and I've talked with him many times, known him forever, and they've tried to do stuff, but they're so limited they can't patrol it anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Thanks, Carl.

We've had the the speed limit, you know, monitor tells you what your several different times somebody is. And one other comment I want to say up Winchester Creek he put street night lights up there which is great but sprouse on down to the bottom on the bottom last 200 ft there's street light but there's nothing in between so it's totally dark. Gotcha. Thank you. Can I ask you a question? Um just one I found about I found out about this entire deal five days ago.

Yeah. So, how how how does a a uh project of this magnitude not get in the mail from the county to each individual read particularly me because I'm my front door is on Strauss. Okay. Thank you. Jeeoff, you want to speak to that just briefly to give us kind of a little bit of the process of how this works? I know you've explained it and just give us kind of a basic rundown.

Sure. the uh requirements for notification that uh are in place for Oregon is that the uh request like this it's in an urban area the notification distance is properties that are within 100 ft. If it's rural land it's 250 ft. If it's resource land it's 750 ft. So that's um that process was followed with this request as all of all of our requests are. So that would mean the first house inside Winchester Creek at the very top which is Tim's house the only person would be the only house that would get a notification that this development is taking.

We've gone through the process. So So at this point I'm going to call point of order. So if you'd like to come up and speak on behalf of the rebuttal that is fine.

Okay. Uh I just got three quick quick notes. Uh, first I did just send Jared Cordon, the superintendent of our school district, a text message asking him if he had any concerns about uh, school enrollment here. And his text message response was, Winchester enrollment is 337. I am not worried about enrollment there. Uh, second comment is, I did go and meet with Carolyn in her backyard. She's the last house up there and it's yeah, there's a lot a lot happening there. Uh and and we can we can fix that uh when we finish our design on this. I'm I'm confident of that. And third comment, uh Tim Bear's criticism of our design on Winchester Creek is absolutely warranted. We should have patted out all those lots. Uh I we I I have lost sleep over that. Uh, and um, so I I'll I will apologize for that. We we we did not make things easy for you on that. So I'm sorry.

That's all I have to say. Must be a beer there.

Didn't see this coming. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, at this time, I'm going to close the public portion and we'll deliberate to decision or if we have questions for staff. I had just a couple of questions. Um Jeff, if folks want more information, what is the best way for them to get that information?

Uh any part of the record is public. So at any point in time, we would we would look into the record. Um specific questions can be asked of the applicant. um some of the questions related to um what type of housing is not part of the approval criteria. So if those questions were asked of staff, we would just simply recognize that this is just dividing the land. Um so it it just depends on the type of questions. And so sometimes we might have said here's what's being requested. It's a division of the land and that's under chapter 4. Here's the requirements. It's a unique request um of of plan development versus standard law bylaw. So, here's that criteria. Any other questions? You know, we might have directed to the applicant.

Okay. But that could have happened once the notice went out. And you know, we wanted to refer this to a hearing rather than make the staff level decision based on the comments that we did receive.

Okay. Gotcha. So, this is kind of phase one. So, as far as getting more information out to those folks, because that was one of the common things I kind of heard here is is people just wanted to know what's going on. They want to know, you know, what it is and what it looks like. And I guess I would encourage you guys, you know, depending on what happens and how we ruled is try to get that information out there to those folks. Um it's, you know, I I heard the drainage piece was brought up over and over again. It sounds like you guys are working some of that. um the speed issue. You know, it's funny because I've seen uh you build big wide streets and the problem is is people speed on them. Uh you build narrow streets and you put people on them and you put people parking on them and guess what? They go slower. So, it's just kind of this uh

I don't know. It's a it's a weird quandry. Um I've seen it myself happen in that. But I still would encourage um to see if there's a way we could try to get that speed solved. I don't know if there's speed humps, speed bumps. We've already closed the public portion. Sorry, sir. Um but some kind of traffic calming maybe in there to get those people to slow down. So that that's my comment um to staff and to you guys and and I'll open up to the rest of the uh commissioners. So I know our hands are tied on a lot of this. One of the questions I have I guess is dwelling size. There is a minimum requirement. Correct. Yeah. 6500 on the lot size. So dwelling size.

Yeah. The square feet of the dwelling itself.

That's something that's regulated through the building code and it's not part of the land use component. So again, we're looking at the land division and meeting the criteria to divide the property. what constitutes a single family dwelling, which is a permitted use in the zone. Um, that could be whatever meets building code. So, that could be a manufactured dwelling. That could be a house made out of straw. That could be a certain 4,000t house. It could be a 900 foot um cabin type dwelling, but it all is what's what we're approving on a property would be a single family dwelling. And then what that dwelling is size-wise or style has to meet the building code requirements.

Right. But looking down the road, they're going to have to at least meet that. Absolutely. So it it can't be what some people refer to as tiny homes is very very tiny and and this is not it can't head that direction. So um if I could I had one question then that that two-bedroom, one bath you said was the minimum size you anticipate there. How many square feet was that one? Cuz I was trying to write some of this stuff down and there was so many different sizes. cuz I was kind of lost there.

Um I'm going to I'm going to say, you know, honestly, I'd have to look on our website because that's where a lot of information is, but um probably 700 ft. Okay. Thank you.

756. And Jeff, remind me so we can make sure we're clear too is is our job looking at this is for the major plan amendment and that is going from the 14 lots to the 28 lots. Correct. That's kind of what we're looking at tonight. Now obviously there's differing factors into that but is that

that that is what's before you and again Josh uh the staff planner you know in the staff report identified that the approval criteria that you're looking at is from chapter 4 for the subdivision requirements and chapter five for the planned unit development. Um so planned unit development um for example one of the big uh requirements of that is the open space. So just to give you an idea, that's one of the main main things that someone is having to do as a tradeoff for uh plan development versus conventional lot by lot.

So one thing, what is the maximum that could be potentially built on that land? Is it? Well, as as the applicant stated, if you were to look at the acreage and the R1 zone and the R1 zone allowing for 6,500 foot lots, um, you could have a lot of lots and which sounds like you calculated 200, but you have sometimes I put in the staff report 156. 156. That takes in 25% for streets. Okay.

Right. And that's a good point is that your your raw land doesn't factor in the infrastructure um doesn't factor in slopes. Uh in this case, you have a limitation on water that may prevent that from being ever built out further.

I have a question on uh our authorities with the HOA because it's referenced. Well, one, I wanted to just acknowledge there's 20 conditions already identified that cover uh a lot of everyone's concerns. Um 20 conditions is not a normal list of conditions. Uh but I did just note that the the and I'm curious about the the yeah the influence or jurisdiction that planning commission has on an HOA and a plan development. This is new for me the notion of a plan development. So, and I'm specifically think I appreciated your comments about you intending to be fe simple, but that I don't know how it's even and I also appreciate the comment that you don't know what's going to be built up there. And that's how I'm looking at this is you there's this is the third change to this property in in the history of it being uh zoned this way. So, I'm of the mindset that we're talking about just so many lots and that's really essentially it. Could be stick built homes. That's to be determined. There's nothing locking that in. Now, I'm just waxing eloquently. I'm curious on do we have jurisdiction on on HOAs? Yeah. from this is a part of our jurisdiction.

As far as if your question is does your review as the planning commission extend into the HOAs that are being created? Yeah. No, that is that is something the developer can choose how they're going to regulate. There are conditions of approval that dictate um how they maintain the roads, how they maintain the open space and some other things that but like any subdivision they can choose how simple or how robust those CCNRs might be

as to whether or not you have an architectural committee paint style. you know, you can go clear to that or you can just simply say um there's no chickens allowed and no mobile homes. I've seen all kinds from in between the two extremes and that's not part of our that's something the developer is going to come up with and make sure that in creating those CCNRs they incorporate the requirements of chapter 4 andor chapter 5 as applicable. That answer your question?

It does. Yeah. So, so Jeff, did the building department create all these conditions or do those come from? I mean, there's I Jacob hit on the subject that I these are a lot of conditions. I don't know if we've ever had this many before that had to be met for the approval. Mhm. Well, it's um fairly typical with a request like this where you have an urban subdivision or in this case planned development that there are uh a lot of conditions of approval

and I and I think pretty much every concern I heard here tonight has been addressed in this I mean that they're going to have to meet a other than the speed limit. Well, and the other observation I have on the traffic is unfortunately a lot of those concerns are not on this property. They're they're downstream already. So, while I appreciate more makes more, it we can't undo that genie out of the out of the bottle. That's kind of how I feel. And I I don't know that that that just is outside of Yeah. in this jurisdiction. So, it's compliant with all those rules.

Yeah. think of falls under the heading of if we'd have known then what we know now, we might have done things different on that planning as far as street width and sidewalks or if people were decent neighbors and followed the rules that would be fine too. Sure. So, Michael, any input or questions or I'm comfortable with the presentation? How about you, Brent? The question it's a question for both sides. Yeah, I'm sorry. It's closed at this point. I'm sorry. Go ahead, Brent. No, I think uh everything that I had was answered.

Okay. And and just so folks um there's a distinct process that we have to go through as a planning commission and we're not the end of the road. Um regardless of what happens here, there is a next step and that would go to the board of commissioners. So this whatever decision that happens here can be appealed. Um so you just know that um this is just part of that process. So um this point I'd be more discuss clarifying question. This is nitpicky but uh condition six states that slopes 13% or greater. Is it 13 or 12%. I thought I had read that it was 12%. There's two different standards.

So it is 13. Okay. I thought well condition number six is recognizing um 13% or greater that there's a need for a engineering geologist or engineer who certifies qualification to evaluate the slopes and then there's a condition related where you where you mentioned 12% is from the drainage conditions. Okay. So there's two different sets of criteria.

Um I would note for the record that condition number six is related to the urban growth management agreement between the city and the county. So it's uh separate standard than the ordinance. So it's a in addition to our land use and development ordinance where we have this shared urban growth management agreement with the city. So that's a higher standard from the uh agreed upon urban growth management agreement.

Thank you for that. Welcome thorough explanation. The end of the discussion otherwise I'd be looking for a motion one way or the other. I move that we except the staff recommendation with the 20s as presented for decision file 2524. Okay, I have a motion. Do I have a second? I'll second that.

Okay, it's been moved and seconded. Any other discussion? Okay, all in favor say I. I. I. Okay, motion passes. So, we will move on the next. Now, this would be an opportunity if I had business from the audience. So, if you had something you'd like to say real quick, come on up. And not related to this. Yes. Yeah. And it I guess as Jeff said, Strauss, um, the reason that I mentioned page, I'll go back to that. Yeah.

Is because it's not the speed, it's the volume. The volume on Strauss has doubled without an additional 38 20 38 developments. 28 20, excuse me. developer wants to do 28 lots. Typical American homes, that's one and a half cars or more. That's an additional 40 cars up and down there at least twice a day. It's the volume. It's not the speed. It's just the volume. Thanks, sir. Go ahead.

Yeah. Bruce, again, something both sides need to look at. And I just happen to think uh we still get our mail at the post office. They do some home delivery or in boxes, but the post office can't handle what they're getting now because UPS lost their Amazon contract and went to the post office Tuesday. The lady at the post office told me it was their biggest day they've ever had since they've been there and they don't know what they're going to do. So, it's something to consider. They might need to be involved in this. It's It's bad. I see. Thank you. Yep. You got one more. Come on up. Can I say one more thing?

Yep. Um, we just amended, I'm sorry, this is Bonnie Derman, uh, 480 Wild Fern Drive. We just amended our Saddlebut estates to um, rules our our bylaws from 1983. And we, um, wrote in a clause that that restricted the, um, the houses there to be owner occupied so that no one could rent. We could do we could not do short-term or long-term. We do have one long-term rental that um is on our street and we've sort of grandfathered that one in. Um and that's a case where a house is not being very wellmaintained. But I would respectfully ask that if you're writing um Carl, if you're writing the uh the DCNRS for your HOA, could you please consider not allowing rentals? Is that something you would please entertain? Thank you.

Any other business from the audience? Go ahead. Angie, Angie Winger, again, I just wanted to reiterate that I don't think the homes would sell. I apologize. Your homes are beautiful, but the square footage is really unappealing and I can't imagine any woman wanting to live in 700 square ft, let alone a family. I just wanted to point that out. Thank you. My wife, I would love to. She knew the Okay. Um, business from the planning commission. Does anyone have anything?

I I I just wanted to mention quickly about the uh meeting we're supposed to have at 3:00 today. If there's some way we could get a little more notice, that would be dandy. I mean, I I can tell you I've got my calendar booked out for the next two months. Um, if we could just get uh more. So, I it's not like I don't want to come to him. I it just I was happy today. So sure. Yeah. Um you want to plan it for next month? We are gonna we're Yep. So we're gonna talk about those land use and development ordinance amendments at the November meeting. So we did 3:00

and we'll skip we'll skip any kind of workshop. So we're we're just going to and I'm going to mail out. We already had a revision from what you received. Very minor. It was just some other statutory um changes uh regarding there's u provision for housing and just some changes to the legislative process. It's changed the OS numbering. Um but I'll get those to you in advance and then you'll have some time to look at them. So rather than workshop, we'll and this is how we used to do it in the past. we just come right to a hearing and talk about them in the hearing and review them and you'd have your recommendation. So that's that's what's on the agenda for November.

Jeff and I talked about it briefly and he felt like most of this is pretty cookie cutter. I mean as far as it's coming from the state legislature. If we had something we didn't like at that point, we could still table it this next meeting. So it's not like we're just rubber stamping something. We'd still have the ability be regular meeting time. Yes. But we're going to have the workshop. Nope. No. Must be a hearing. Yep. Just straight to the hearing. That's what I was saying. If there is concerns, he's going to send it out prior. So, if you get it, read it. You have questions, get a hold of Jeff. If not, we can talk about at the hearing. If we don't like something or something we want to table, we can postpone the meeting. But if not, then that would be our first hearing for. Does that make sense to you guys? Yep.

There's so many changes. I know if you're in it all day, it doesn't probably feel the same. or maybe it does, but it's hard to keep up with. Just want to be sure you guys can say thank you guys for volunteering your time. Yelcome. Um any other input from the planning commission? Okay. Uh planning department. Well, kind of already just touched on it with uh and there there is technically still a few days left, but I don't think we've really had any uh land use inquiries that would lead to anything else being on the agenda. So, that's looking like that's all it's going to be for November is to come and talk about the amendments.

Does that mean no Subway since we're doing it? I know. I I was waiting. I'll buy you Subway. I was waiting. Katie and I were joking about I was like, "Oh, Tim's gonna he's so upset about not getting Subway. I'll buy you lunch, buddy." I just I had to throw it out there because I didn't get a chance. I I was telling her what I So, next meeting. Looked at that. I was like, "Oh, I got to think of something funny." And then we'll have That's why I couldn't come as a subway. Yes, that's right. Yeah. We'll we'll have uh finance effect for this uh also. Yes. Okay. All right. Well, if you don't have anything, anything else coming up or has it been pretty quiet? No rock pits. Uh, you know, no solar farms. Come on. Wind farms. We haven't seen wind farms. No. Um,

pretty done dog kennels. How about another horse horse training for pretty quiet? He might He might have jinxed us. We'll find out. That being said, uh, meeting J.