Safety, Housing, Education & Homelessness Committee - Regular Meeting

Safety, housing, education, and homelessness committee of Denver City Council. The safety, housing, education, and homelessness committee begins now.

Alright. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the last Safety Housing Education and Homelessness Committee. I think most people have hopefully heard by now that our committee structures are changing a bit, And we will have, I think, a few additional committees, and they'll be broken up. So you won't have safety and housing together going forward anymore. And there will be some different chairs that will be taking over in these places. So this will be my last time chairing this committee for now. I don't know what's to come in the future ever. We don't know. And and our vice chair as well.

It'll be his last time vice chairing, but I will still be on the committee. Yay. With that said, my name is Serena Gonzalez Gutierrez. I'm one of the council members at large. Before we break into introductions, I just want to let people know that we are having, experiencing some technical issues with our, the streaming. And so if you're if you're watching on the web platform, you might experience some choppiness, and it's also affecting Zoom. And so we'll see some of it in the room here with the video. I thought I could break out a good robot dance and that it would look really good with the choppiness. But anyway, we'll go to introductions of council members, and then we'll go into what's on our agenda today. I'll start on my left.

Good morning, madam chair. Stacy Gilmore, district eleven.

Good morning. Paul Cashman, South Denver, district six, and madam chair, fine job with the safety committee.

Thank you. Good morning. Amanda Sandoval, Northwest Denver, District 1.

Chris Hines, Denver's Pergotten, and I noticed Anshul is not here for safety. Otherwise, I would, I'd mourn his, departure.

He might still come in. He might make an appearance. Yeah.

Maybe that's why he's not coming. I think Kevin Flynn, Southwest Denver's issue two.

Good morning. Amanda Sawyer, district five. Alright. Well, thank you for that. And with that said, we only have we did have one person participating virtually, and I wanna make sure if they are on yet. No. Okay. Nobody's on. And if they do come on, we'll make sure we introduce them. And with that said, we have one briefing today from the Civil Service Commission.

They came some time ago. Perez, the executive director, came some time ago and provided us with some updates of what has been going on with the Civil Service Commission, and we asked if they could be repeats and come back, to provide updates since things have been kind of changing, as far as process goes. So with that said, I will turn it over to both of you if you can introduce yourselves, then go ahead and proceed with your presentation.

I'm Steve Foster. I'm a commissioner, on the civil service commission, and I'm just here to support Gracie. So, hopefully, I can answer any questions if you have any.

Thank you. Gracie Perez, executive director for Civil Service Commission, and thank you for having us. Alright. We're good? Awesome. Moving along. So we are we came in mid February and presented some of our process improvement changes and the state of civil service in general. And so we're back today to kind of give the committee a briefing about some of the updates that we have made since then. So again, we implemented a new Denver specific written exam, entry level written test, through the National Testing Network as of 01/01/2025. And so coming into June, pulled our data just to kinda make sure.

So on the left of the the information, you'll just have some basic information on what the testing looks like for police and firefighter. But I just wanna focus on a couple highlights. So the the reason we wanted a new and a a very Denver specific written exam is to ensure that we attract the talents that are amongst our our our community. Right? Not so much focus on on the national talent pool, but really increasing the pipeline and the viability of our candidates within our immediate, community.

And so the anticipated increase in total applicants completing the NTN test for police in 2025 have actually increased. So if you look at the data there, we are actually just 6% shy of matching the total test completions for a police entry level between 2024 and year to date of 2025. And then the goal one of Civil Service Commission's strategic goals for 2025 is to decrease the amount of noncomplications for these tests. And we wanted to, you know, be at about 20% less. So last year, there was a total of 1,031 police candidates who did not take the test.

And so year to date for '25 is we have seven fifty two. So that's about 27% lower. And so we're coming to the tail end of the processing. We may or may not really achieve the 20% goal, but I'm confident that we will definitely be that we will end the year with less non test takers than we did last year, which was the goal of why we wanted to improve the entry level test. Any questions on ITN?

We can take questions at the end.

Okay. Sorry. Mhmm. Okay. Next one.

You know, in in any implementations that we do, I think it is really sound that we will look at post implementation's adverse impact because, you know, that's just part of one of the values of CSC is equity. And so looking at the test takers for 2025, there is some slight observation on potential adverse impact to a couple of populations, demographic populations. They're not egregious, but obviously and our numbers are not you know, they're statistically sound, but we need you know, it's not as big as it should be. So we're just kind of monitoring right now the test results. And then, you know, candidates we've observed are primarily failing the writing test element versus the reading test element.

Both elements have the same passing score at 80%. We started the year when I was here, we started the year with a 65, percent passing score. We really wanna raise the quality of the candidates that we are seeing, and and so we raised it in in March to eighty percent. And so with this, like I said, we're just monitoring the adverse impact. Vendor had you know, in consultation with them, they recommended that we lower the minimum passing score back to 65 to to address the adverse impact.

And then they said, you know, if if if CSC was not willing to lower it to 65, at least lowering the passing score of of the writing test to 75% may address the adverse impact. But I really wanna challenge the concept of immediately lowering the passing score in order to address adverse impact. If you move on to the next slide, I've got some EEOC guidelines on how to handle adverse impact. So on the right is just the current measures that civil service is taking to address the potential adverse impact. So we actually requested the vendor conduct further review to gain insight on whether there is or any questions that impact candidate's most commonly fail on.

We wanna focus on that because if it's one or two questions that folks are most commonly, failing on, then maybe rephrasing that question may help address the adverse impact. And then another thing is, you know, we ask the vendor to develop a candidate handout designed to help prepare for the test. The handout discusses the test components and general test taking strategies and way to, and ways to avoid common errors. We wanna educate because sometimes it's not because of the test, but it's just the nature of how tests are, you know, how people take the test. So we wanna, you know, educate and and have that the those tools available for the candidates.

And then the vendor, we've asked the vendor, and they're currently doing it, they're developing a custom practice test because we developed a Denver specific test. Their practice test available other available practice test was not applicable to our test, so they're developing that for us. And then, you know, working closely with the departments, recruiting teams to kinda increase the pipeline. I guess the real message here is, you know, adverse impact can be addressed in multiple ways, and civil service at this time is choosing other means to really focus on or focus on other means to address that versus just lowering the scores. And we I guess the bottom line to another bottom line would be to increase the pipeline of our candidates because more people take, then your your statistic becomes a little bit better.

Okay? Next item is our job suitability assessment. So as a reminder, the job suitability assessment is wanna take a pause and have our current vice president, commissioner Moore. No worries.

To park

around. Hi. It's

great to

meet you.

I drove the space very much.

I bet you did.

Do you wanna introduce yourself, sir?

Yeah. Hi. Greg Moore. I'm the vice chairman of the commission. Good to meet you all.

And I'll take a quick moment to also welcome councilwoman Torres to the meeting as well.

Thank you. Alright. So job suitability assessment is the fourth step in our process. It comes after the polygraph exam. And between December and January, we worked with stakeholders.

We also invited some members of the city council to join in conducting a job analysis, which was the intent was to refresh refresh the job analysis that our vendor utilizes to screen candidates as they're interviewing for non medical psychological evaluation, which really just measures their traits and characteristics and how they may be suitable. So coming and and, you know, post implementation of that new job suitability assessment, just highlighting that the the completed, you know, analysis enabled a more specific assessment process and better differentiating candidate suitability. And then as you can see on the on the various charts, the growth trans spans across all the demographic categories, including gender, ethnicity, suggesting a systemic increase in evaluation volume. So we're definitely seeing more an an increased number of candidates coming through this step, but you can also see, you know, correlation wise, you have more suitables. There is inadvertent increase in marginally suitable and unsuitable.

And just really reminding, marginally unsuitable does not mean they're unsuitable. There are just some information that needs to be followed up on. All right. Next one, psychological job suitability assessment. So this is the medical psychological evaluation that happens after candidates get conditional offer.

So just to highlight on this one, there is there is zero PJSA and suitable determination for EMT and firefighter, but do keep in mind, there hasn't been any, you know, because of the postponement. So we will start seeing probably more of this as we process for the firefighter and EMT job offers. And but the data highlights a notable improvement overall in screening practices reflected in the lower rate of unsuitable determinations in 2025. What we really wanna do is, through the different stages in the process, is screen them appropriately. Right?

So in an ideal world, everybody who gets a job, a conditional job offer, have really passed all examination phases. So we wanna see the PJSA trending down. And and that's what we're seeing here because by the time they get a job, a conditional job offer, which means they've gone through CSE's examination phases and they've passed EDOS election. We want to be reaffirmed that our decisions are right to begin with. And then it also suggests, like I said, just to I think I said that in the earlier stages, basically, you know, it it successfully filters out unsuitable candidates.

Alright. So here is the last two slides are our happy updates. So what we really wanted to do when I first came on board is have a methodology and mechanism within Workday to be able to really track our timelines. Because if anybody asks, if any candidate, stakeholders, community members, partners ask, how long does it take for a police applicant to to go through the process? I remember in my first town hall in September, I had mentioned, you know, it takes about an average of three to six months.

But even without that at with that average, it really was kind of like across the board. You you couldn't really land on a specific average. So now we worked heavily with Workday. We've implemented our process improvements. Now we have the ability to track timelines in between hiring steps.

So as you can see, and this is just for police, the application to the commission deliberation and being endorsed to become eligible register, it's taken an average about a hundred twenty five days. But in between those stages, you can see how long on average it takes. A couple of bottlenecks we've experienced because of the workload volume was with our polygraph examiner, you know, not having enough capacity to handle the volume in the first quarter of this year. So that added more weeks into the process. And then the same is true for our background investigators.

So we're working on addressing those bottlenecks. So I am confident that this will even be reduced in the near future. But, again, the focus is not necessarily obviously, we all want reduction in the time frame, but we don't wanna just speed up to speed up. Right? But at least now, CSE has the ability to tell anyone who may be interested in the information information and what these timelines may be.

And finally, this is the police academy recruit count spanning from 2023 to 2025. Keep in mind, twenty five two has not started. It is due to start on July 28, but this is what we're working with. So as you can see, you know, we mitigated the the the declining trend and have slowly increased that. And so CSC believes that speed doesn't automatically equate to value or progress.

What we did was focus on changes that brought efficiency, effectiveness, and meaningful impact. And then just to kind of inform you guys, we did have the audit from the office of the auditor on our entry level hiring process. We received 14 recommendations. We addressed immediately the ones that were policy related, so four had been cured. We are looking to cure six of them by by October 31 and are, I believe, on track to cure the remainder by December 31. So that is where civil service is. Thank you.

Thank you. I have a few members in the queue. So we'll go ahead and get started with some questions. And we'll start off with Councilman Hines, followed by Councilwoman Gilmore.

Thank you, committee chair. It's been an honor to serve with you in this final meeting. You talked about the amount of time it takes for a recruit to go through the process. I believe it's my understanding in the past that some recruits give up mid process because they maybe started an application at the same time or maybe even later than Denver Police Department process. And it's just our process takes too long, you know, relative to other agencies.

Is that is that your understanding as well? And and if so, are you tracking the the attrition, you know, just based on the length of the process?

Yes. Yes and yes. That was my understanding. Although in the past when I first came in, those were anecdote mostly anecdotal feedback. We did develop earlier this year a candidate experience survey. And then we also track, recents with roles and, you know, through the academy pre and post conditional offers. So we have that ability. I don't have that in front of me. I can tell you in February, we lost Juan to our nearby city because he was offered sooner. You know?

And and that is something that we really wanna continue to address. I went to a recent physical agility test, and I asked them, you know, for feedback while they were waiting for orientation. And some of the feedback was like, oh my gosh. The the process is faster now, you know, that type of thing. We're tracking that. I should have, towards the end of the year, the candidate experience survey results. We recently also developed a survey specific for the disqualified ones. Similar questions with a little twist, but the intent is to really gain feedback, the good, the bad, and the ugly, if you will, from both sides.

Does that experience survey just cover the recruitment process, or does it also talk about maybe there are reasons people specifically apply to Denver as opposed to somewhere else? Or they want to work in the city in a metro area as opposed to a suburb in a metro area? Some of the reasons why someone might apply to Denver Police Department as opposed to somewhere else.

It doesn't currently, but it certainly is a great idea. We do ask how they came about knowing about the job. So it could be something that we could add to that question to say why Denver. Yeah, definitely.

Yeah, I think that'd be good information for us to have so that it might help inform our recruitment process. Certainly, constituents serve the center city, so welcome to Denver's Perfect 10. And I know that my constituents want a fully staffed police department. We can have a conversation about how the police roles should exist in the city and alternatives to the police should exist in the city. But if we've made the decision for particular authorized strength, I think we should try to meet that authorized strength.

There's always also always a push pull because, sure, we might be able to reach our authorized strength tomorrow if we didn't have any sort of screening. So I'm glad I see multiple steps in the process. But we want people who serve the city to reflect the values and ethics that the people of Denver hold and frankly expect of public servants. And so I just want to get your thoughts on that as well, the push pull between recruitment and making sure that we recruit the right people and how that's going.

You know, I'll be very candid if you you know, appropriately candid, of course. You know, with with with our team, what we have been focused since we joined is really getting to that authorized strength. It's not anybody's you know, it's not one person's goal, one office's office's goal. Goal. The goal is to fill our classified members to its full strength because what that translates to is a safer community. And I think that's all that that's all of our wants. And so as far as how our steps, what we've the changes we've made, we've kept every steps. We haven't eliminated since I came in a hiring step. We've kept and improved on the steps so that we can really, so, you know, identify the quality candidates. I don't have the numbers and certainly can follow-up.

But weekly, we track how many attrition out and a lot of like, we are really seeing this year that at the point of commission deliberation, they are saying no to more candidates. At the point of EDOS election, they are they have the ability to say more to candidates. They have said more. And I, you know, I would defer to the departments. Anecdotally, what I've heard from them is they no longer, quote, unquote, scraping the bottom of the barrel.

But and yet our recruit our academy recruit numbers are are growing steadily as well. I will say, you know, the number that is out there for authorized strength, we've done already a 108. If we if 59 stay steady through July 28. When the academy starts, that's a 108 recruits for the year. We have one academy that is remaining, and that is still in December 1, and we're already processing for that academy.

So we'll reach a 160 with 52 remaining to work on, and then we'll build the goal is by the end of this year, we would have filled not only twenty five three, but also started to build an eligible register for 2026. And so, again, we we are seeing people being declined by the commission and by EDOS. So that means the commissioners have really high standards. And even so, the, you know, the the the Department of Safety is is being able or having the ability to also implement their or their own selection standardization from the pool of the qualified candidates we're endorsing. So I think that's a win, but I think continuously monitoring to see how that translates, you know, having conversations with the training directors.

How are they performing at the academy? One of the things I had asked him recently is how are their writing skills? Because that was a feedback, you know, monitoring that. And I was happy to to hear that they are monitoring that because we wanna really follow through on that continuity of success. So that's where we're at.

One final question. So I think there are a lot of reasons to work for the city of Denver as opposed to any of our neighboring cities. Or I'd put up Denver against all the large cities in The US. That said, the folks who are coming through who want to be police officers, they're putting their lives and the livelihood of their family on the line for the people of Denver. And so I'm curious about Denver's compensation package for police officers.

Is that competitive? Is that something that you look at? Yeah. That I it's I'll just I'll just leave it at that.

We do not at civil service. Okay. Yeah. Sorry. No. That's fine. But, you know, if if it helps to hear, you know, when I do have some a few conversations I've had with folks, Some have left Denver, moved on to nearby cities, and are coming back to join Denver because Denver is just a place where a lot of folks want to be members of the classified team. So I think that that's a good testament to how great our our city and our force is.

Well, thank you for your work for our city.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you. Councilwoman Gilmore, followed by Council President Sandoval.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the presentation. And with slide I think it's two here, the entry written test. Have there been conversations or I'm just thinking about, especially when we're talking about diversity of the police force and folks that are interested in this as a profession and where they might not have had a great beginning formal education for a variety of reasons, but because of that experience makes them a better police officer, a better public servant, especially engaging with diverse communities. And so has there been conversation if the written test or the writing skills, it seems like, are perhaps a barrier to candidates to do workshops or some sort of prep work that could make sure that we're getting the best candidates.

And if it's something around writing skills, We're not creative writing. We're not, you know, science fiction writing. We are writing down the facts. And so just wanted to find out a little bit more about that.

Absolutely. So in house, we monitor it. Our vendor also monitors it. So at the very least quarterly or when trend come up, we definitely come to the table and look at these. Right?

And then our findings and our conversations between CSC and the vendor, we then share it with the departments. And then I go ahead and present it to the board of commission. And so I think the re for the recent impact that we've seen, our approach is to number one, we've actually we already have a a a sort of, that handout for candidates that our recruiting team may be able to, bring with them. You know, the only thing the vendor for proprietary reasons, they don't want us to post a handout on the website, but that's already available. And it tells candidates how questions may look like, give them sample questions.

And then one of the things that they're also developing is a practice test because we want those candidates to be able to because sometimes it's just a matter of understanding what you're about to get into, so practice test is definitely I think it's a good tool to have. So those are two things that two strategies that we're gonna try to see if those, really address the barriers. And then plus that one, I've asked the the vendors to really review the test questions. I've asked on the writing. It's not because at first, was like, is it AI? You know, is AI discriminate? No. It's not an adaptive test, so there's no it's not so there's no AI factor in the scoring. So that's great. I said, well, you know, look at the the test and the test takers.

Is there a question, or are there questions that they are most commonly failing? Sometimes just rephrasing a test question, it removes that barrier or increases the probability of passing. So those are the strategies we're trying for now. And then once we've applied that strategy and we're still seeing the impact, then perhaps it's good to move forward to another set of strategies.

Okay. That that's helpful. And I'm pleased to hear that you're doing that. I think of the you know, it matters how we're bringing people in. Because at the end of the day, if something goes wrong, we have to approve those settlements.

And so there's been millions upon millions. If I went back over the last ten years, it would be close to in the hundreds easily that way. And so what we do on the front end will make sure that we're having the best candidates. On I think it's the next slide, I had a question or maybe slide five. Wait, let me see.

I'm sorry. The one that had the demographics on it sorry, slide three. It is the next slide. What is the we've been doing work. Council member Gonzalez Gutierrez and I have been meeting with Denver Police Department, Denver Human Services, Denver Department of Public Health and Environment about the missing and murdered indigenous relatives epidemic that we really have across the country, but in Denver.

And when you look at the numbers, it's over 40% in Denver that has missing and murdered. Our our rates are very, very high compared to the rest of the state, only ahead of the Ute and Southern Ute reservations, so Toyok and Ignacio, in the Southwestern part of the state. And so we started asking, why is that? And I got some feedback from advocates. And one, officers have no idea of how to work with American Indian or indigenous communities, and two, are not educated on MMIR.

And so when I look at I how many officers do we currently have or are you bringing in that identify as American Indian or Pacific Islander? And if you don't have that information I can quickly That's

have it, but I can forward it to you. We do track it every week. It's unfortunate that it is one of our lesser populations and volume of of of of within our pipeline of candidates. So, certainly, you know, if is any way you can also help us connect with these communities to provide some, you know, enhanced recruitment activities. To your point, I think sometimes it's just a matter of them being aware, right, of what's out there, how you know, what the job is about. We can certainly partner with the department, but I think that there is certainly room to improve our recruitment initiatives and strategies around, around the population.

Right. Right. I I appreciate that. And, you know, I know that there's always a booth every year at the Denver March Pow Wow. But it's a recruitment booth.

And if you look at the history, most of the interactions that people will have had with police is a missing or murdered family member. And so hopping over the address of issues with that is insensitive in just going to recruitment. So I think that there are definitely quite a few groups that we've started talking with. And then Denver is late on the issuance of MIPAs as well, missing and endangered people. And so we're trying to increase that.

And so it would be nice if when we could, one, diversify the force more so. Is, at the end of the day, what people want to see. You need that representation and you need a comfortable safe space for them to come into. But then with that, we would have better policy and procedures to make sure that you're not telling a family you have to wait over the holiday weekend to file a missing persons report when or that we're having to use the Office of the Independent Monitor as a backstop because families don't feel like they're being heard when they report complaints. And so we're just telling them we'll file a complaint with the Office of the Independent Monitor as well.

So you but these are problems I feel like are indicative sometimes of attitudes that people maybe have or maybe just not the education or the experience. And so I would hope maybe with that information and the MMIR info we'll that maybe becomes part of the questions or part of the framework that you're asking, especially because Denver is very unique as far as how many American Indian people come through Denver Mhmm. On the way from visiting family in South and North Dakota. They come through Denver. They stop off and see people, and then they go on to Nevada or Arizona or New Mexico.

So it's a very big problem. So I just wanted to bring

that up. Absolutely. Certainly, if you could share us your community contact, we would be happy to. One of the goals that we've set this year was also to even expand beyond the whole goals. Because I think whole goals is just a it's a mandatory. We wanna expand to that and have a more sustainable recruitment strategy as well. So I'd be happy to thank you. Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Great. Thank you. Council president Sandoval, you're up next.

Thank you. Thank you, Gracie, for the presentation. My my two my questions are basically for the commissioners. I've meet I've met with Gracie a lot. Just wanted to feel like how's your role? How do you feel like the process is? How do you feel just about being commissioners? Do you see that there are rooms for I'm always wondering. I'm getting my master's right now, and so I'm really big into, like like, process and organizational and how is the process going because we can do so much on our side, and you can do so much with Gracie as the new executive director, but a lot of it falls on you all. Mhmm.

And I remember during COVID, I got a call from the fire department, and they were like, we're we're not able to process process applications right now because we can't meet in person. And I I said, what? And they were like, we can't we it's executive session.

Right.

And we have to social distance and we can't meet in person. And so I called DDPHE and I said, is there a way where we could set up the web build a room in the web, have them six feet apart, take a COVID test before you enter, make sure we get them PPE gear so that they we have to have them processing applications, and you couldn't do it virtually. And so that was the first time, like, an issue came to me from civil service that I was like, woah. So I immediately called the the executive director at that point, and I said, let me help you. And I said, let me get you COVID tests to all your commissioners.

Let me get you PPE or, like, masks, like, not just the regular thicker like, the thicker masks. And let me help you get a room in the web building so that you can go in and preset up tables and so everyone is six feet apart so you can social distance. And she was like, thank you so much. But had a firefighter not called me and told me Mhmm. Hey. This is the struggle we're having Alright. I would have never known I I could step in. So just wanna hear from you all as the commissioners and the people who are processing the applications and the ones who are really taking on the changes that that we're hearing from the civil service. But the floor is yours. Just have whoever wants to take the floor.

I'll go first. Yeah. It's good to see you again.

Good to see you too.

I'm feeling good. I'm feeling like we're really making a lot of progress. You know, there were bottlenecks in our system that I won't say that we were causing, but we were a part of the problem. Like, the the fact that we we thought we had to meet in person in order to move applicants forward, that was not by charter. That was past practice.

And once we actually were able to figure out things that were just habits, we were able to correct them and make improvements where we can vote virtually, and it helps move the process along. So there are a whole bunch of advancements like that that I think have really made us more efficient. You know, I'm I'm halfway through my second year on the commission. I feel like I I'm I've got my arms around the elephant now because we use data, so we can sort of see the whole picture where before it's like a etch a sketch. You know?

You just couldn't see the whole thing. And so we're we're able to address a lot of things simultaneously whether bottlenecks in our process, bottlenecks in our procedures. We have better communication with our stakeholders, particularly police, fire, and safety. So we've been able to talk with them about doing some statistical analysis that will help us do our job better. So just on a whole bunch of different levels, I think that we're we're clicking on more cylinders. And I think overall to the benefit of the process and for our applicants and for our all our other stakeholders. So I'm feeling really good right now about being a commissioner and and seeing the progress that we're making.

Well, thank you for your service. I know it's a

Thank you.

It's a big time commitment. Yeah. I've had a couple of people I know who have served on as commissioners. And when they started, they didn't realize what they were taking on. And they called me after, and they were like, this is like a job. This is not like us me serving on a board. And they were like, we're like I was like, yeah. You're hiring and and you're hiring our future police and fire department. Right. And it's really it's a lot of responsibility. So the floor is yours. So just but thank you for that.

Yeah. I think data is always very valuable, and you have to understand the data. But, you know, you have to understand, you know, where the data comes from and that's important. But I think what validates or really strengthens the process improvements that we're making is the relationships between the stakeholders, right? And you know, I'm coming to you too on the on the commission.

And and I think that there's been a a real improvement in how we communicate and and the trust that's being built and the alignment that's being created with the processes and what Gracie's been doing. I I I was I spent the first couple of months very confused because I couldn't understand because we we were really weren't reporting well on what we were doing, and, and there was a struggle there. And so now I think that, with Gracie's ability to be able to understand how to craft processes and how to craft constituencies amongst the various organizations that we work with, to do a lot better is really important. And I think that the relationships, I personally have more relationships with police and fire and EMT now. I have more relationships within the city.

I came into it probably with, a different perspective than most, commissioners would come into it, because of my background. I've taken Denver's test. I sat through the process and didn't get hired. I was one of those folks that got the job offer from Aurora first. And so, you know, I was a police officer for a very long period of time, and it was a black box for me.

I did didn't understand civil service. I didn't understand the testing process. And and and and and, councilwoman Gilmore, to your to your questions, anything that we can do to prepare these folks to take this test. Because I can tell you when I walked into I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna forget. It's been thirty five years. I'm old now. But I think it was Kerrigan Hall we walked into, and there was, you know, 2,000 people there. Yeah. And here I am, a young kid that just came out of the military. And I'm like, man, I'm not as smart as all these people because, you know, because of my upbringing was very different.

You know, I I was homeless. Right? And so I joined the military to get away from being homeless. So I didn't have the the education, and and I was horrible at writing and test taking. But police officers sat me down and helped me.

Folks that I was in the military with that became police officers, and they reached back and helped me. And so I will tell you that, it's really the people and and the leadership that Gracie's been, really been putting into into this effort and the relationship she's building and what we all have to build, with the, with the departments, understanding that job is difficult. And there's a lot of there's a lot of things that happen within the city and the state that will that will force someone to say, I don't wanna work for Denver because I'm nervous. I'd rather work for Douglas County because it's not as intense or or, you know, or or or Castle Rock because it's not as intense, and it'll give me a chance to mature. So it's not always maybe what you think.

I wanted I came from a big city. I came from Philadelphia, so I wanted to be I wanted to be a big city cop. Right? That was to save the world. I think it's most police officers' job. But I think I'm very proud of the work that we've done. I'm not I'm very vocal in our meetings, but I'm not very vocal vocal outside the meetings, probably mostly because I work too much in my real job, my day job. And and and some of you may know I'm in private equity. I build software companies now. So I've been very blessed from that perspective.

But I think what we need to do is what we're doing right here is ask good questions, support the work that's being done, find ways to be more creative in funding and developing programs. And and, you know, I I'm mentoring a young woman who's a security guard in my building, and she didn't think she could ever pass the test. And she's a single mom with five kids, and she moved here from Louisiana. And and I just felt like the way she handled me when I didn't have my badge and I came into the building the first time was I'm like, hey. You have you ever thought about being a cop?

And I think we need to have more programs, and I think there are programs. I think there's programs there's there's programs for her to go into to help educate and coach her up to be able to be comfortable and feel like like she's worthy of taking that test and that she fits and that and that she's smart enough. I don't see setting lower standards is gonna help us or service in any good way from this test scoring perspective. I think we ought to challenge these officers to do better, but I think we need to challenge our own officers and our own administration to do more and do better. And I think we ought to challenge ourselves that way.

And I think we do that every day. So that's a long winded answer to say, you know, I'm very proud of the work that we're doing. I'm very proud of the work that the team is doing. And and Gracie has brought I'm a I'm a data software guy. And so processes and systems are really important, but it starts with the people. So foundationally, it's how we recruit and how we educate and how we support those folks coming through the recruiting process is what's gonna win at the end of the day. So

Well, thank you again for your service to as a police officer. My cousin is the former fire chief, and so he was a civil service commissioner. And when he went on, this was years and years ago, chief Trujillo, he I always ask him, like, hey. How was it being on the other side once you were the fire chief, and now you were sitting on the other side looking at all the applications and hiring? And it's just something where as me growing up in Northwest Denver and having my husband who looks like a Latino and having us be in a car and him literally getting racially profiled, me with my maiden name Sandoval not looking like your traditional Latina, not getting being pulled over and, oh, ma'am, you can leave.

Right?

Right.

With my husband, oh, and who is that with you in the car next to you? Oh, my husband, Michael Insenias, who has a different last name. Oh, you get and then immediately being questioned. Right. Oh, you are married? Yes. We're married. We don't have the same last name. I kept my maiden name, but he does get treated different. And when we were growing up in Northwest Denver and I grew up during the summer of violence in Northwest Denver and lost a lot of friends in high school, I'll never forget cruising on 38th And Federal.

Me getting pulled over, looking the way I do with my blonde hair and light eyes, total wetter, getting treated much different than my brown friends. And we had cops in our neighborhood who you knew if you got pulled over by them, you were going and you were gonna probably get a curfew ticket or you were gonna get x, y, and z. And that was something that we until I started working for city council, I never thought of the I just said this the other day on an interview. I never thought of the police officers, firefighters, and my allies.

Yeah.

They were people who I ran from. They were people who we hit from. They were people who closed because there was a clash out at Columbus Park in '81 with Latinos. We had a huge clash, and we lost our swimming pool in the middle of the night because of that clash with the police department. Like, I was born in '78.

This is in my lifetime. And so making sure that we have people who look like the people in my neighborhood, make sure that you can understand the dynamics of a community when you show up and you're like, hey. And someone's speaking for the mom because their mom might not understand English, and she's a little bit afraid. So it's just so important work that you all do because you literally are feeding our future fire and police department who we at city council approved their budget, right, and and approved their collective bargaining agreement. And there's always usually in indie any industry or anything, there's usually 10% that are bad actors.

And it's those 10% that get all the media, get all the things, get all the whatever. I mean, even with elected officials, there's some that are really bad actors right now. And there's some of us who have given up a lot to serve to serve and just do our work and do it quietly and methodically and without the marquee lights. So I just wanna say thank you because I wanna just to hear from you all because this civil service has been something that when I ran for city council, I looked at, and it just I always am thinking about good governance and how are we what systems need to be changed, what systems need to be updated, when's the last time an ordinance has been looked at. So it's just something that I've been thinking about for a while.

So just wanted to give you all an opportunity. So thank you, Gracie, for taking time to meet with me. You've come to Northwest Denver, seen my neighborhood. So just anytime you all need anything, just know you have allies on city council that you don't have to sometimes it feels very siloed working in the city, and you feel like you're, like, on an island by yourself and you don't know who to reach out to, just know that you can reach out to me anytime, and I'll help you workshop things or give you ideas or give you a different type of perspective, but you're not alone. I just wanna say thank you for your service. Thank you, madam

chair. Say hi to Larry from you.

I will.

I just saw him last night.

He's a great friend.

Yeah. Thank you. I'll say how they live, like, six blocks from me. So his wife is my cousin.

Okay. She's a

wonderful woman. Yeah.

So

Thank you. Thank you, madam chair. Thank you.

Next up is councilman Flynn.

Thank you, madam chair. Always nice to meet another Philly expatriate. The crucial question is where do

you weigh in? Warburg got the all star MVP last night. Yeah. Right. Where do

you where do you weigh in on the crucial question of Pat's versus Geno's?

There is no question that my family would not allow me to walk across the street to Geno's even if I wanted So

you are correct.

In my family, Geno's doesn't exist.

Is Gracie, is the list the hiring list is public. So I'm wondering, how how does Aurora poach how does Douglas County, Lakewood, Jeffco, how do they poach our candidates? Have they also applied at those places, or do they look at our list and see who's scored high and who they might want to go after?

He always speaking a bit because he has some ties sore. We both live in in this city. But, no, our our candidate list is not posted. However, the NTN test, the entry level test, actually, is a is a national testing site. And so when they before we did our Denver before we implemented our Denver specific written test, a candidate, when they go into the the the site, they can click all the agencies that they're interested in, take one test, and all of those agencies are gonna hover around those people who passed the test.

Yeah. Everybody's everybody's fighting for the same candidates. Right. And everybody's working hard to tell them why. Aurora's telling them why they're better than Denver. You know, Denver's saying why they're better than Lakewood. Lakewood's telling them Englewood's no good. And they're and they're all fighting for the same candidates. And so it's gonna be that way. It's it's never not gonna be that way. What differentiated Denver years ago was the pay scale. Denver was the place to go. You would there was a whole lot of movement. There was a whole lot of opportunity. There was a much larger department, and the pay was much better.

And then the surrounding agencies stepped up, and they they are paying better. Pay is a differentiator, but there are things and I and I we don't have time to go into it now, but there are things that we can do in our charter, in our rules, and as a city that would that would make our city more attractive. So Such as? Mhmm. Such as rule 12.

Fixing rule 12 would make our city more attractive the biggest recruiting arm that we have in this depart in this city is our police officers. They're the ones that are gonna recruit for us. Mhmm. And and if they have something bad to say, it's somebody comes to an officer and says, hey. I'd like to work for Denver, and that officer says, you don't wanna work for Denver because of x, y, and z. And if there's something we can do to appropriately fix that

Mhmm.

Then we should. But we have to do things, and we have to capture the hearts and minds of the troops to a certain extent. And we can't do what they want us to do, but we can build a more parity relationship, a more level headed relationship with them that will help recruitment. So

Right. Thank you. I wanna also follow-up on, councilwoman Gilmore was getting out of on the adverse impact chart. I've heard the same story that you told about going into Kerrigan Hall and seeing all those people. I heard the same thing from Jeff Martinez. Yeah. Had the same experience. Didn't think he could make it. And, you know, for my money, he was one of our best officers, you know, as it turns out. Could you I'm I'm trying to understand the adverse impact in relation to the test.

And I think you said it was the written where the scores where the more of an adverse impact was shown. Can you give us a feel for if I were taking a test, what would be the questions? What would I be writing? What sorry. I'm trying to understand that. Is it I mean, could could we take the test?

We don't advise it, but I can certainly share with you the the some of the information. But high level, the test approximately takes forty to sixty minutes. Yeah. It's unproctored. It's totally virtual.

They can take it using their phone. They can take it that those are some of the changes we've made. It's about, what do you call that? It's about, if I'm not mistaken, 50 questions combined. And then, as an example would be, you know, they'll give a sentence that has incorrect grammar, and then, you know, they'll be given multiple choices on what, like, the appropriate conjunction is, appropriate verb, so that kind of writing.

Greg, we got rid of all the copy editors of the papers, didn't we?

We still passed that test.

Now Now we know.

That's an example.

Okay. That's that's interesting, Amram, because I'm wondering how that relates to

I'm not advocating this. I guess I should I'm gonna say it anyway. I was the chairman of the board of the Aurora Police Foundation, and we were struggling. And this was years ago, and I just went online and took the test because I was like, you know, I wanna see what it's all about. And I failed didn't get moved along in the process because I the the way the test was structured electronically, I answered yes when I should answer no.

Oh. And I didn't realize what I was doing, and there was no chance for for me to unwind that. And I had to wait six months to a year to be put back into the process. And so I'm looking for things like that in our test process and in the electronic test and and how we administer that test because it's really important to my earlier comments that this isn't it was everything to me when I wanted to become a police officer. Yeah. And I was nervous. Has that been is that corrected? It has been correct.

I'm sorry.

Yeah. It has been corrected. And it and so there are things that we're looking at to to make sure that we're creating an environment where people can be successful and remove unnatural blockers.

I do have a the practice test handout, like a handout that I can share with you all after when I get back to the office, and you guys can see how the questions are framed.

Yes. You know Absolutely.

And how they relate. It'll give me a much better feel for the challenges that you that you have.

Absolutely.

Oh, thank you.

No worries. And then when the practice test gets implemented, I'll share with you all. We'll foot the bill, and you guys can take it.

I'm I'm we're out of here in two years, so I'm looking for students.

Okay. I don't see any other council members in the queue, so I have a couple of questions. So going back to the the test as we were talking about it, can you remind me because I think that we know that there were changes made. Mhmm. I think how it was administered and all of those things.

And I know, Gracie, you and I have talked about this before. But can you remind me why the test for law enforcement, for police, is forty to sixty takes around forty to sixty minutes versus the firefighter test, which takes two hours. I also I remember this, from last time where you mentioned the change in which it is now no longer proctored, whereas the firefighters are proctored. And so I'm just curious, why is there this difference between these two types of jobs knowing that I mean, both are equally important. However, I think there is a component of, when we look at our law enforcement, the fact that you are carrying a gun and you literally hold people's lives in your hands, right, regardless of, like, whatever the situation is.

Why is the test time so different, and why is it unproctored for one and not the other? Absolutely. So oh, go ahead.

And I'm gonna I I apologize, but I have to leave. Good. I'll see you later. I have my I I just bought a new company, and I have every employee waiting for me at 11:30 to talk to them across the country. So I'm more than happy to meet with any council person individually. I'm not hiding from anybody. So if anybody wants to get ahold of me, my information is available. I'd love to discuss more with you. It's great to see you again. Perfect. Thank you. Thank you.

Good to see you.

Care. Yep.

So when I first came on board, one of the things that we really wanted to do is over, make the improvements on the entry level or in test. The the pressing priority was to improve the police version of the test, and so the vendor developed very quickly the reading and writing. The vendor is currently developing the fire version of the improvements, which will also redo will which will make the test unproctored, reduce the numb the the amount of time test taken. What's what's taking it a little bit longer is because a firefighter has a mechanical test element or test component that takes time to develop versus just your, reading and writing. So we do intend to we intended to roll it out for if if firefighter had an academy that we opened later this later this year, if not next year, with all those changes.

So this is what because we opened the requisition for February in February for firefighter, and we didn't have the the the new test developed yet.

Okay. Thank you for that. And I guess, as part of that, and and it when it comes to best practice or any kind of research even across the country, Is there any data or research showing other cities that are administering tests in this manner, like unproctored? You know? I just I just wonder.

Right? Like, I think about if you're Right. You're, like, at home taking the test or doing it on your phone, that could also put somebody at a disadvantage as well, right, if they're struggling with tech or they're struggling with in the instance that maybe you need a little bit of support, right, maybe you have a learning disability that doesn't necessarily say that you cannot go further in the process, but you might require some additional Accommodations. Accommodations. Yes.

And so how is that countrywide nationwide versus us? Is this a normal process to do these unproctored? Is this a normal practice? I will say that for the specific vendor we worked with, we are the first that we've challenged them to do an unproctored,

so that's why they're heavily monitoring the the post implementation data. Similar will be applied to when we roll out the police the the fire version of it. I will have to highlight that before we implement the test, we actually have a session with the department so that they can actually view how the test is going is because we want their input. Right? The current the current members, and their leadership, we want their input on on the test that's about to be rolled out.

So what I can do is I can ask and and do some more research if other because, I mean, you know, there are multiple test vendors, so there could be some on Proctored that I'm just not aware because we are working with a specific vendor. I I think that's a really good good point to make. Okay.

The the only other thing I would just say about that is the changes that we made regarding proctoring and all that kind of stuff was related to data that showed that we were losing a lot of people that weren't taking the test. And we were trying to figure out why is that. And, you know, she can correct me. Gracie has all the data at her fingertips. But, I mean, the the the the the the test itself was 75% longer. Okay? I mean, like, how many questions were?

Four plus hours.

Four plus hours. How many questions? Four.

600.

600 questions. Okay.

And they were all virtual, by the way. And what really made it stringent was the proctor version of it. Like, nothing can almost happen behind like, within your immediate surround ings or else you fail.

You couldn't have a mirror in the room. You couldn't have a window in the room. You couldn't have a door in

the room. Mhmm.

Like, I live in a 6,000 square foot house, and I don't have a single room that can meet those conditions. Okay? And so we were losing people because, I mean, short of being in a closet, there was no place in their home where they could take the test. And so people just wouldn't take the test. They would apply, express interest

Mhmm.

Find out what the conditions were and go, oh, no. It's gonna take me six hours? Oh, no. And I'm not gonna hear for six months? Oh, no. And so we went in and looked at ways that we could get a greater yield. And I think it's really important to note that, you know, in terms of determining whether or not a candidate is cheated, that comes out in the the polygraph part. So we ask them the polygraph, you know, a specific question to determine whether or not they received any assistance or cheated or anything else. And, you know, they're not foolproof, but they reveal quite a bit. So we have ways to make sure that that's not an advantage for anybody to cheat or anything like that.

I wanted to we do have a, a lab laboratory where if people wanted an accommodation to where they needed to be somewhere safe, secure, and also have Internet availability and tech assistance, we have that.

Yeah.

I would just be it would be interesting, especially if we're the first ones doing it this way. That's a big leap, I think, for for us to take. And I guess, yeah, I would I think it'll be great to just continue to to see how that process is going and and to continue to see what the data is looking like, what the outcomes are. Because as you stated, like, even that had a lot of pitfalls, it sounds like, doing it this way even unproctored. So I guess one of the things that then compared to other cities our size and our length of our process, where do we land with the length of our process compared to other cities our size?

If that has been kind of the concern that has been brought up over and over again is how long it takes, where do we compare?

I don't have that data. I have not heard any negative feedback from the department. Usually, you know, when when somebody comes from, you know, returns from a conference, they would say this is what they've heard from other areas. So I don't have, and and and that's another thing that we can certainly look into. In the immediate cities, I think we're coming very close being comparable to Aurora in timeline, And and we're seeing more laterals come through, which is a good sign of our timeline.

I would just say, like, for the commission, is that that should be something we should be considering rather than just making these types of changes. I think it would be interesting to know where we land when it comes to the length of time. Because if that's a kind of more Denver specific issue that we're saying is a problem, But is it a problem also in other places? And how have they mitigated it instead of us kind of trying to make decisions based on the lack of knowing other data, perhaps, to see that there might be other ways to mitigate the issue and instead of leaping to a conclusion?

Yeah. Well, I don't think we're leaping to a conclusion. Most of the things we've done are sort of based on data. Mhmm. I mean, sometimes when you're a first adopter, there's nothing to compare to. Right? So but we're problem solvers based on data and based on our backgrounds. When it came to changing the test, I think it's important to note that the sheriff's department had changed their test. And we recognized that they were having a much greater yield. They were having much more success in filling their classes. And so the first thing we did was try to figure out what did you do.

Mhmm.

Why is your why was your how did you change your test? What were the basic things that you did that led to that improved yield? And some of those, lessons we took away, in working with our vendor on, on reforming the police test. So we're not just operating in a vacuum. We're we're trying to collect as much innovative data and, experiences as we can to sort of inform our decisions. But we're we're definitely looking to collect as much data out there to see what works, what doesn't, iterate fast and change fast if things aren't working. So that's what we're doing. So your your point's well taken, and and we will make sure that as commissioners, that's what we do.

And councilwoman, Gonzales Gutierrez, just kinda just going back to the slide from app between application and the reading test that we've and and the written test, it's about eighteen days. The overall, what I was talking about, I think it's good to know also, like, the overall process. Right? Because I always wanna say that entry level where Intez is just the first that's the second block on this chart, the first step. Holistically, we wanna look at the timeline and how do we compare to comparable cities. So, certainly, I'll be happy to come I'll always follow-up on your guys' request. So I'll I'll be happy to.

We'll put this in the queue for our incoming chair. I think the last, I guess, question or just kind of comment maybe that I heard, you know, that feeling or getting us to maximum strength of you know, with all the positions that are are vacant or need to be filled, that it would make us have a safer community. And I think there's a there are different components that create a safer community. And we've even heard from our own chief directly from him that necessarily more that more policing doesn't necessarily equal a safer community, and it doesn't get rid of necessarily stop crime. What they do is they respond.

Right? It is a reactive to when crime has occurred. And we know that there are more patrols happening in certain parts of the city, and I certainly understand the thought behind that process. But we also know, we've heard from people who are doing the actual work, that there are other pieces that need to be applied and that we must also take into account when addressing safety safety in our communities. And I know a lot of my colleagues, you know, we've talked a lot about, like, STAR and other, like, other measures, right, that help to keep our communities safe and wanting to make sure that all of them are operating at maximum strength.

Right? So I just wanted to to just make that statement, and and thank you so much for your continued engagement, with this committee. And, I'll I'll be, looking forward to continuing to have updates from you all and and dialogue. And thank you for sending out the feedback request that you sent out. And so I think everybody hopefully has received that, and we can provide additional feedback on that process. So if there's anything else that you'd like

to close with before we wrap up? No. Just really thank you guys. You know, feedback is is I wanna hear the good, the bad, and the ugly because that's the only way we get better. Our intent at Civil Service Commission is to add value to the entire process. We are, maybe a minute portion of that, but certainly, I think a value added minute portion of it. So, your engagement, your guidance, is always really helpful for us. So thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you for hearing us.

You are.

Thank you. Really great questions. I'm always impressed with great questions. So thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah. Thank you. Colleagues, we have three items that were on consent. Those will move forward to the full body seeing that nobody has pulled those off. And with that, we get a little bit of time back, and we are adjourned.