City Commission - Regular Meeting

2026 if the clerk could please call the roll deputy vice my marker here Commissioner Malika Commissioner Cassell here vice mayor burns here mayor Kearney here.

We have a quorum. Thank you very much If you could all rise please for the Pledge of Allegiance My pleasure to see the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible Agenda approval. We have 4A on the agenda has been removed. I'm going to ask that we ask for discussion. Agenda item 6L1. It's regarding the tennis center contract. Just kind of wanted to discuss that. That's 6I1, you mean, Mayor? That's 6I1. I couldn't tell if it was an I or a small l. So it's 6I1. Are there any other items on the agenda?

Are you making that 7AA?

I'm going to make that 7AA. Yes, correct.

Thank you. I have none.

Any others? I have none. All right. Then I need a motion to approve the agenda as amended. So moved. Second. All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Okay. The first item is going to be the special recognition to the Palm Beach County Department of Engineering for timely resumption of the George Bush Boulevard Bridge. Let me tell you a little story. Some of you get my newsletter. And one of the things that I kind of pushed was this concept of, I called it the Mayor's Challenge, but Mayor's Award, whatever I called it. And it was to get citizens to start writing into the, we all hear how, usually when you talk about government, everyone says how bad things are. What I'm trying to get people to do is to start writing when things are going well, when you are treated well by the city, and to give recognition to the staff who works very, very hard sometimes without any positive recognition. So I had gotten a call from this fellow who said they were so thrilled that the George Bush Boulevard Bridge, which had been scheduled to open July 15th or 18th or 20th, suddenly got done three weeks ahead of schedule. because of the work done by three individuals. And those individuals are Palm Beach County Engineer David Ricks, Bridge Superintendent Tom Capini, and Maintenance Supervisor Christian Martinez. And so the city is giving a special recognition to these individuals who, frankly, really, having that bridge open on the 4th of July Everyone who knows what it's like getting down at the beach and everything on the 4th of July knows it. So you're going to be making the presentation?

Sure. And if I may, Mr. Mayor, to go ahead and continue to facilitate the opportunity. So what we're referring to is a very specific recognition to the Palm Beach County Department of Engineering for timely resumption of the George Bush Boulevard Bridge operation. As the Mayor alluded, it was initially anticipated so it could be completed by late May. July, circa July 27th in that timeframe, the final week of the month of July. However, working closely with the Department of Public Works and the City of Delray Beach aggregately, a great partnership was achieved to yield a advanced completion of the work, not impacting the city's Independence Day holiday festivities. So with that, we have Mr. David Ricks, who is the County Engineer, Palm Beach County, Mr. David Ricks, Professional Engineer, as well as notable members of his team, Mr. Tom Company, as well as Christian Martinez, and Missy Barletto, Director of Public Works. I would like to ask you to please come forward and join the gentlemen as we celebrate their achievements and contributions to our community.

Thank you, David. This is a great collaborative effort between the City of Delray Beach, Missy Barletto, and Palm Beach County Engineering.

May I say a few words? Yes, please do. Thank you, Mayor. Thank you, Council. Thank you, City Manager. This is a tremendous honor. I like how you talk about positive feedback. It's huge because we in public service, we do it because we're passionate about it. But in this context, this bridge definitely is a work in progress to keep it up and running until we replace the bridge sometime in the future. But the timeline was 1 June to sometime late July, like you're talking about. But we had, this was a huge team effort. We had a couple of our engineers in roadway production, Christine Smith, and also Sandra Obsina, who worked with Hardesty, who was the designer, who helped fix the repairs. And then Tom and Mr. Martinez, there was just two of 20 people that worked on the bridge during that time frame. And what's unique, we're the only public agency, county public agency, that do repairs on the Basco Bridge. So it's kind of unique. Then on top of that, I met with some of my new employees about a month ago, and the forum had just started about a couple months, and they worked on this project. And so what it tells is indicating that we have tremendous leadership and dedication for doing quality work. And so we bring people in, we make them part of our team, and so this is just a work of love and passion to help the community. So thank you again for this effort. Thank you for your efforts. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, picture.

Let's do it.

Let's do it.

We'll have a photographer take one.

Can you get one with your camera? Our head of Parks and Rec is here with us. You're in the photo, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're part of the team. No, no, no, no, no.

You're part of the team. I'm ready right here.

Here's something positive.

All right, the next item on the agenda is a brief tutorial for assessing city, official city of Delray Beach online meetings and agenda. That will be, Patricia.

Mr. Mayor, let me discuss this. So we made a commitment to offer a brief tutorial. It was actually Commissioner Casale who initiated the idea and dialogue. And this actually aligns with some thoughts Commissioner Judy Malika brought up as well previous weeks. In terms of accessing City of Deer Lake Beach information online meetings, agendas, we'll do something more comprehensive later. However, given our current technology use and abilities, we thought it would be appropriate for us to offer a brief demonstration in response to the thought as offered by Commissioner Casale just one week ago. So with that, we introduce our deputy city clerk, Patrice Harris, to offer a brief electronic tutorial, if you will, to highlight what our capabilities are in this regard. Ms. Harris, if you would, please.

Okay. So, good evening. Good evening. So, as you stated, the purpose is just to demonstrate, excuse me, how to access the meetings and the video recordings. So, this is the homepage, and there are three options to end up where i'm going to take you and i'll show you all three some residents have already signed up to get email notifications when the agenda is published that link that's in that notification is the exact page that i'm going to take you to so option one you would just scroll down a little bit and you'll see quick links and you'll access agendas in minutes and you can wait for the page to load or you can just click that link and this is the page So from here, you'll see the meetings and the agendas, the minutes, and you can change the search parameters, but for the purpose of today, it's just going to be 2026 city commission, but it's just a dropdown and you'd select the year. Or if you're not interested in the city commission, the other boards. So, we're gonna look at February 3rd, the regular meeting, and you'll select meeting details. And from this page, you can see the agenda that's posted, the minutes once they're published, and then the video. The agenda, when you open it, all of the attachments are hyperlinked. So as you scroll through, you can access whatever attachment you might be interested in with just a click. And I picked a long one. This might be an image. Yeah. I didn't pick a good one. So...

It's still loading.

It is. Slowly. Slowly. It doesn't...

We did say brief. I thought it was.

Yes.

Well, just because that was said.

No, I'm just busting your topic. That's all.

Okay. So, yeah, this is one of the larger attachments, so that was why. But you'll have access, once you open the agenda, to all of those attachments. Now, this is also the agenda. This outlines all of the items on this agenda. So you just saw this version. that you scroll through and you can look at all the attachments. And then if you go back here, it's the same thing, it's just a different view. Now let's look at 7C. Let me go back. So this action and result column, that will let you know if the item was approved or denied. And when you don't see anything in these columns, it's not applicable. And under the action details, anything that's listed here contain everything that was included in the minutes so you can view the minutes for that particular item from this column and then the video will take you to the start of that particular item

So for 7c you'll see under action details you can see who made the motion who seconded it and all this is all of the details from the minutes and you can see that the motion is

to approve it that it passed. And then there's the votes down here. And then you just close that window there.

Oh, this is interesting.

I know. I don't usually use this mechanism. So this is informative for me as well.

And also, let's see. Let me go back again. I think this is the same item so for each item there's an agenda cover report and you can view that by clicking here and it's just a memo that contains all of the background information for that item so you have the option to select it from the agenda here or from meeting details for that particular agenda item and all you would have to do is click on the file number which is here and it takes you to this page and all of these attachments are the same ones that were included in the PDF version of the agenda so you can click here to look at it this is also the memo when you click here You'll have to scroll, and if you want the full thing, just click here for the full text, and then there's the memo. And you can always hit the back arrows to go back. So that's pretty much it. Now the other option to get you to the same spot is going to be from the homepage. You're gonna go to I Want To and then City Meetings on Legistar. And it's gonna take you to the same page which gives you access to the list view for the calendar page. The third option is from the homepage. You'll hover over Government. And then under Department, select City Clerk. And then Agendas and Minutes. And you'll get the same page. Now, for the meetings, open up another page, that are recorded off-site, to access those, if they're recorded, you'll select I Want To, and then underneath Watch, it'll be Delray Beach Special Workshops. So you'll find like the town hall meetings and goal setting. They'll be captured here. And also YouTube. So from, let me go back to, I lost the page. Okay. So here's the link to the YouTube videos. It's going to take you to the live page for Delray. This is an option so that you can access the youtube videos but note for youtube those meetings will not be those recordings rather will not be indexed in timestamps so you can't just go and find exactly where you want to be for the items that you're interested in you can also from i want to watch access to youtube from underneath watch and then city meetings on youtube and it's going to take you to the live page for youtube So, as you can see, there's a variety of features and options for you to access the meetings and their recordings. And as always, if you need help navigating these pages, the Office of the City Clerk is willing to assist.

Thank you very much. Any questions for Ms. Harris? No, thank you. This is a page I don't normally use, and it's actually a lot better. I usually go to the meeting and then scroll through it to find where I'm supposed to go. Oh, my goodness. This is very useful.

I agree. I usually go to the Meeting and then I click through the links below the video. So this is helpful. We can always learn something new Thank you. You're very welcome.

Thank you very much. And thank you to the clerk's office Comments inquiring and Jen and not an agenda items first the city managers response to inquiries and highlights I

Yes Mr. Mayor and that actually involves one formal presentation and that is titled Path Forward Guidance to Address Operational and Maintenance Considerations at the Derry Beach Memorial Gardens Municipal Cemetery. I've made a commitment during the July 14, 2026 City Commission meeting to offer a presentation in terms of what the anticipated path forward looks like and what this involves ladies and gentlemen is the use of external consultancy services help us get us to where we need to be. I'd like to give the Department of Information Technology a second or two to upload the presentation. It is fairly brief, however it is quite comprehensive in that I believe we will be in position to offer the city commission with specific recommendations as a result of an external objective overview of operations and practices at the Delray Beach Municipal Cemetery. So in essence, as I just stated, the use of an outside firm to review and confirm facts, validate current practices and define the next phase of cemetery stewardship. The course for objective fact finding, verify conditions and current practices, improvement focus to likewise take under consideration, recognize what works and what can be improved. as well as future capacity and strategic options. Evaluate options before making recommendations. So in essence, what this involves, ladies and gentlemen, is a focus regarding ground maintenance, service levels, and other related activities, administration and work floor, roles, procedures, and controls, customer communication. There's been a lot of commentary and observations about customer communication, and for the record, ladies and gentlemen, There is no remote working environment at this juncture. Staff assigned to the Delray Beach Municipal Cemetery are physically operating at that location as well as in the community center building right next door here to City Hall. Records, mapping, and technology. Inventory, software, and access. Financial sustainability relative to fees, controls, and perpetual care. Capacity and future options. infill redevelopment feasibility. Of course, we've talked a lot over the last couple years regarding the development and construction of mausoleum facilities at the Derry Beach Municipal Cemetery. However, given some other interests regarding additional PLOS and other review activities along those lines, our interest is to objectively evaluate and review any considerations, if at all possible, to be made available. This opportunity will likewise help the City of Delray Beach to A, confirm facts, B, establish benchmark best practices, as well as C, recommend specific policies that we need to execute so as to achieve a cogent set of priorities. Just a second, please. So target outcomes, some of the next steps we talked a little bit about, confirmed facts already. Measurable standards, clear expectations, capacity, options, feasibility and trade-offs, and the implementation of a course forward. Outlining priorities, costs, and key performance indicators to get us to where we need to be. So since the July 14th City Commission meeting, I've been working closely with Chief Procurement Officer Paul Narcisse in terms of initiating a formal selection process. And I'm pleased to report that we've actually received several responses and a formal selection process regarding external consultancy services will be made in the next couple weeks. I anticipate advising the city commission in terms of who that will be via the information letter report to you before Labor Day weekend. So that's literally in the next couple weeks or so. so that we can complete the applicable assessment process comprehensively along the lines of what I talked about to likewise yield in the coming weeks thereafter a city commission presentation and what phase considerations are to be implemented as a result of receiving this objective overview. Given the cost thresholds associated with this consideration, this will be a contractual services to be executed by the office of the city manager. I will not have to wait to a City Commission meeting to formalize this particular agreement. Likewise, I will keep the City Commission informed relative to the services being rendered, the name of the consultancy, and the specific steps to be finalized to yield recommendations for your review and consideration in the coming weeks. So for that reason, ladies and gentlemen, to the city commission and quite frankly to the public, before we exercise additional specific thoughts or observations, editorial and otherwise, I'd like to give this opportunity a chance to be productive and successful. What's great about this approach, ladies and gentlemen, is the objectivity, number one. This is not an internal staff review by any means. This is external consultancy services reporting to the office of the city manager, speaking in second person, yours truly. And third person, excuse me. Thank you, Ms. Gillen, of course. So I will likewise work closely with all involved to get us to the place in which we need to be to likewise result in recommendations for city commission update and evaluation. So this will be accomplished rather soon for the reasons I've talked about. Direction is to therefore make this a priority in terms of a selection process. And again, I anticipate informing the city council, the commission, pardon me, who that will be within the next couple weeks via my weekly report to you all. With that, ladies and gentlemen, I'm available for any questions or concerns you may have regarding the process, but the commitment is underway and therefore being executed.

I just would like to say a couple of things. First of all, I'm glad we're going to be finally doing this exercise. It's a multi-layer issue, because I had the occasion to visit the cemetery a couple of times over the weekend. Actually, one of them, I had a telephone guide, Angela Commissioner, Vice Mayor Burns was on the other line directing me to places. I said, where is this? Where is this? So I was able to walk the cemetery. I mean, she doesn't even know where her father was buried, for example. So I mean, there's a lot of systemic problems that have been there that I don't know that we're ever going to be able to correct. But there are things that we can correct. We can improve the way the cemetery looks. We can improve the landscaping. We can improve certain things there to make it look better. And because some of the graves that I saw are kind of, you know, they're all grown over and everything. And I think that those are the kinds of things that's level one. Level two is certainly going to be capacity options because we have, there's going to be capacity. I know we're building the new mausoleum. I visited that site. But, you know, I think that we've got a bigger issue. which we're going to be facing in terms of volume there, notwithstanding the new mausoleum. Because there are some people who don't want to be buried in the mausoleum. They want to be buried in the ground. So I just think there's a lot of other issues that we've got to look at. I'm glad this is the first step. And I just want to underscore to everyone, this really is just the first step, this plan. Because these other items about improving the maintenance and improving all these other kinds of stuff need to be a continuing a continuing obligation to the city so that when people go, they know where they're supposed to go. But even if they don't know where they're supposed to go, because there may have been mistakes made 20 years ago and 30 years, which I can't make up for, but what I can do is make it what the city can do, not me, but what the city can do is to make at least the graves that are there be taken care to the sense where it shows that there's a continuing perpetual care type of situation. So that's my point. But I'm glad we're doing the study. Could I ask a question? Yes, please.

Thank you. Could you go back a slide? You said it's under the threshold. Your threshold is currently, what, 65,000?

It's actually 100. However, it will not be anywhere near that amount. And again, I'll bring you up to speed in terms of what that is. That's not the cost of the project, Commissioner. Nowhere near it.

Are we looking for an outside consultant on a long-term basis to maintain this place? No. Okay, so quick question, just curious, because you're looking at a consultant. Could you go back, please? A slide. Ground maintenance is very different than capacity, right? Customer communication is sort of like accepting and addressing complaints. You're saying one consultant is working on all these things, records mapping? Because this seems like six very different and very specialized functions that won't qualify under one consultant.

No, ma'am. What this will provide is a review of the respective practices and opportunities, and an individual consulting firm can help us outline some initial steps to take a look at the different categories. However, to more or less support what the Mayor just talked about, this is simply a first step to get to that place. From this exercise, we'll be able to determine what additional needs and aggregate steps will be necessary in the sixth category here.

Can we give a timeline on all of this? So we right now are looking at our consultant. Presumably you'll have somebody within maybe 60 to 90 days on your consultant. How long will the consultant work? When can residents, because this has been ongoing complaints for years, to start to expect? We need a timeline so that people can have expectations reasonable and understand what's happening because this is like the fifth meeting on the same subject.

If I may, Commissioner, as I mentioned as part of my presentation, I anticipate announcing who the consulting firm will be within the next couple weeks. I'm anticipating during the Labor Day weekend, and from that standpoint, I'll be able to outline for you all in writing part of my weekly report some of the specifics you've shared in terms of timeline what's anticipated in that regard so we're talking the coming weeks thereafter so i don't anticipate this initial step taking a terrible amount of time okay however it will open the door in terms of what additional focus that the city of derby beach will have to engage and interact so as to get to the absolute best place possible so a singular consulting firm that would be approved by the office of the city manager to initially address the various aggregate categories as i've outlined in the presentation so that we can achieve a longer term path forward to also define what additional resource considerations might be necessary and i think we should update i understand it's multi-level but it says consult and review areas implying they're all happening at one time which is

Seems unlikely. I think what we need to do is get on the cemetery page, put some information in, and as the timeline builds and the information becomes available, update it with regularity so that people know what's going on. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Commissioner, Vice President?

Yes. So in the meantime, while we're going through the process of getting someone hired to an outside agency to do this consulting, What are we doing at the cemetery before this time and during this observation?

This full assessment process will take up a fair amount of time. There will be interactions with the grounds, interaction with the facilities, review of records, ascertaining any and all possibilities to make improvements in that regard. as well as to take under consideration as to objectively whether or not the city of Derry Beach can answer some of the outstanding questions in terms of bodies being positioned many decades ago, what can be done to audit those questions, et cetera. Otherwise, normal operations will continue and as I've also stated as part of my overall presentation, there's no remote work assignments in this room. So there's some availability in that regard to interface with staff and the Department of Parks and Recreation assigned to the cemetery facilities so that we can get ourselves taken care of in that regard. However, The objective outside review via the external consultancy services will necessitate interactions and a review of grounds, operations, maintenance, all the associated details so that we can be at the best place we possibly can be. And quite frankly, what I believe will be achieved, ladies and gentlemen, objectively, externally, is that A number of opportunities can be made to achieve improvements, number one. Some opportunities may not become available, number two. Number three, there may be some confirmation of what works well and what doesn't work well. And the opportunity to highlight for the Commission and the public what does not work well will likewise yield specific recommendations and how we build upon that moving forward.

Okay. But I do think that we should probably create something on, if we're doing this as a project with the city of the cemetery, which we really should be doing because other cities have them and they have probably some of the same problems, but we should be able to have, you know, when we have our schedule online, we're regularly updating that so that people can sign on and see where we are in the process. And I think that's a great idea.

Sure. And we will support that consideration and I'm comfortable in that regard. So Let me complete the first step over the next couple of weeks in terms of the selection, and that will be incorporated as part of the process because at the conclusion of this dialogue, I would like to formally ask for city commission's consensus to be able to proceed. I don't think it's necessary. However, given the public interest in this particular topic, I think it would be a good approach for everyone.

Do you have my consensus?

I think everybody in this commission is really anxious to get.

You have my consensus. However, I want to know. In your pursuit of trying to secure someone to do this, will the residents be included in the process?

Yes, ma'am. I'm glad you asked that question, Vice Mayor, because the external consultant will likewise engage and interact with the community. That would be part of the scope so that they can understand what the expectations and, quite frankly, frustrations have been. So that can be taken into consideration as we come back and evaluate opportunities to get to the best place possible. So what is envisioned is a potential community meeting of sorts for any group of individuals, residents, stakeholders who may have had concerns, some expression of frustrations in recent times in this regard, working closely with the consultants so that that can objectively be vetted as well. So that would be part of the mix. And again, once we get the selection squared away, we'll outline a path forward to include that particular feature as well.

Okay, and would, I mean, we talked about back in June and July having a workshop, so would an appropriate place for the workshop to be the reporting of whoever does this outside review?

Yes, ma'am.

Okay, and then lastly, what was it? You know, as the mayor said, this is a multi-management approach. We got ground maintenance, and then we got historic, situation going on, preservation. So there has already been, we have already been designated as a historic designation for the grounds. Will that also be a part of this review?

It would have to be. Yes ma'am.

Okay, because we got, I'm just concerned about, what's the maintenance? We do not. No, we don't have the designation. The study was done.

The study will be, if I may, ladies and gentlemen, to respond to Vice Mayor.

The study's been done, but it's a simple process to get it done. It's like we own the property, city owns the property, so it doesn't take but two steps to go ahead and make that designation. Yes.

There are two separate endeavors, however, that will be a next step in the aftermath of the initial consultancy so that we can go about that process based on what clarifications are made and what analysis is achieved. So technically a separate step, but it does align with the opportunity to get to the best place possible. It has to be recognized that would be part of the review and due diligence on part of the consultant working on behalf of the city of Delray Beach to showcase what opportunities are possible.

OK. May I?

All right. Thank you. Commissioner. Thank you very much. So in the interim with this consultancy, we have, in fact, hired somebody to do the ground maintenance. Is that accurate?

That's a separate relationship. Yes, ground maintenance is in place as a separate contractual arrangement. Yes.

Yes, ma'am.

That was what I asked.

Thank you. That's what I wanted to know. I said in the meantime, while we're waiting to hire someone,

What are we doing about current conditions? So a maintenance company has been hired. Thank you. That's what I was asking. Sorry, I wasn't clear.

Should we give our consensus?

I did already. I'm sorry, Commissioner, yes? Just a couple comments. I'm also happy to hear about the ground maintenance. I think that's a minimum, and it's a great place to start. We've got six pretty big areas up here. I would ask the consultant to focus on number one and number four. I've been in touch with a lot of residents who have individuals and friends and loved ones that are buried at the cemetery and they're not sure where they are. And I know from a little bit of digging that I've done, there were records that were lost. There was a flood. And most of the people that are sitting up here weren't even born when all this happened. Correct. But nonetheless, we want to get to the bottom of it as best we can. I don't know if we're going to be 100% successful. But I think some time spent on trying to map some of the records, keeping track. would bring some peace to some of our residents, and I'd like to make sure we focus on that as quick as we can.

Of course, and if I may, Deputy Vice Mayor Markert, one of the reasons for number four in the consultancy review areas, records mapping and technology, addresses that particular concern. Agreed. I think many people spoke loudly about merits to address that and get to the absolute best place possible, thus being one of the six focus areas, and therefore I think that's reasonable. So some of the categories are more easy to deal with, others are more challenging, and of course I think that will be revealed as we go about the objective process of getting to where we need to be. So for that reason, ladies and gentlemen, again, and Vice Mayor, please forgive me, when I responded to your question, I talked about normal operations resuming. I had that in mind in the context of ground maintenance. So thank you, Commissioner. for helping to clarify the question that Vice Mayor was asking so that we can be clear that the ground maintenance protocols are in place. However, we do take a look at it and we touch it as part of this process to make sure that we are doing as well as we possibly can because ground maintenance is not only essential but imperative in terms of any cemetery operation.

Is there a log of complaints or concerns that's presented to the city concerning what's going on in the city? Is there a log so that we know who's called in, who's complained about their loved one, or who's searching? Do we have a log of that information?

I believe we have some information that outlines interaction, communications along those lines. I don't know if I would go as far as to define it as a complaint.

law per se concerns let's call it concern yes ma'am okay let's call it looking for our loved ones uh law yes ma'am okay so um i mean i i mean i have a a list of things that i wanted to suggest however i think it's more appropriate for you know at the uh workshop However, I'm willing to give this consultant, outside consultant, to do whatever they're going to do. But I really think that we need a cemetery master plan, and we need to have this historic preservation plan and a maintenance plan for this. So I'll put a...

a marker by this so i'll bring this back up um at the appropriate time but thank you yes ma'am and i would ask that once the consultant is engaged that you uh that you ask that consultant to interact with the those commissioners who wish to sit down and discuss with them the issues and what they're hearing and so that he has a better sense or he or she has a better sense of you know what the complaints have been what we're looking to do and where we're trying to go you know capacity and future future options kind of thing so I would hope that if you make that available to all the commissioners, that would be a great opportunity for them to talk about.

Sometimes families have historical information and records that the city does not. So it's a great idea to involve the community and residents with this.

Yes, ma'am. Yes, ladies and gentlemen. So in the context of seeking consultancy, I'm asking that this is, given an opportunity to be productive and successful as possible. However, to the point that many of you all have made, several other outcomes will be outlined in terms of what our focus and programming will be for municipal cemetery operation.

So incorporating all our comments, do we have consensus to the city manager to hire the person?

Yes.

Yeah, I appreciate having this so that the public can experience and demonstrate and witness that you are supportive of the recommendations so that we can get to the best place possible.

Okay.

Thank you very much. Thank you.

Okay. Do you have anything else, Mr. City Manager?

I do not, Mr. Mayor. I yield at this time. Thank you.

We are now at the portion of the meeting for comments from the public. For those of you who weren't here last week, we have a new set of comment rules that we're going to read to everyone. The next portion of the agenda is public comment. As always, each individual will have three minutes to address the commission. This is not a question and answer opportunity, and members of the commission will not be responding to inquiries from speakers. Speakers must address the Commission as a whole, not any individual. Insults, personal attacks and disruptions will not be permitted and you will be asked to leave if you violate these rules. Please come up to the podium, state your name and zip code for the record.

Steve Blum. I've lived here 30 years. I've received my water bill for 30 years and I never had a problem. All of a sudden, we've got a massive problem of incompetence in the way this transition is being run. We were told by the city that the last week of July, and I spoke to Hassan about this at length this afternoon, last week of July, this new company that we chose said it would be done in five days. Well, it's four weeks now, and nobody here that I know of has their water bill. And not only that, when I go online or go to call you, it's 25 minutes on hold because people are calling saying, where's my water bill? Where's my water bill? They're worried they could have me cut off or whatever the story is. So basically, to the city manager, I think the whole way you've handled this has been totally incompetent. Okay? This whole thing, there is no PDF file. They say, well, go to the PDF file and get your bill. There is no bill available. And it says to pay month and year. It doesn't say when it expires. There's cookies. There's no choice because none of us want cookies because they just spy on you, okay? There's no choice to eradicate the cookies. And then it says remember your card when you want to pay. And I don't want you to remember my card. So there's no choice. You can't do it that way. This has been grossly handled incompetently. And I don't know who it is who you put in charge or the people that you said are going to handle this. They said four days, like Hassan said. Well, they said it would be done in five days. And he knew it wouldn't be done for another month. But you went ahead and put it through. And we're sitting here now a month later, and we don't have our water bills. And it just shows me that if you can't handle this situation, what other situations are you incompetent in? That's my story for today.

No insults. No insults. What? No insults. Thank you, Mr. Blum.

The way it was handled was incompetent.

Made your point. Thank you, Mr. Blum.

Hi. My name is Rachel McGinn, 33444. I actually live on Northeast 13th Street, which I've been here before about our flooding. I actually was coming to thank the city because I was able to go on the right-to-know public record thing where you ask for – and I saw a receipt for $41,000 where the city has paid an outside engineering firm to try to design a system. So I was actually coming to thank you guys. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Hello, Commissioners. My name is Julian Ray. I live at 33483 on Marine Way. I'm here for two reasons. The first is just to inquire, generally speaking, about where the contract on the seawall is at. I know you had a meeting about it a little while ago. There's been no update since then, and the residents of Marineway would really appreciate an update, considering as well that there is an agenda item on tonight's meeting for proposed variances.

And speaking to that specific... No, you'll have to... That portion of your comment, you'll have to wait until that item comes on the agenda.

So I can't have another opportunity.

You have another opportunity when that item is called on the agenda because the public will be allowed to comment.

I wasn't aware. Thank you for letting me know.

No, that's fine. But your first comment is noted. Thank you.

Albert Richwagon, 33483. Submit some photos for the record. Wow. All's I can really say is, wow, here we go again. 650 plus days after the opening of subculture grab and go coffee location, still no four offsite parking spaces for staff, no sidewalk, no up to current code parking area, no handicap parking space, no life safety plan, no access to their driveway. What happened to the requirements of bringing their parking lot up to code? Oh, it's okay. little paint and staff will sleep it under the rug nothing to see here now is this all mr rose and my fault as the owner states on his online post when they didn't do what they were required to by the city when they got a gift of in lieu of parking as they had agreed to when they were approved as a grab-and-go coffee shop how has it been administratively approved for a 50-seat restaurant when a grab-and-go coffee shop has created such a problem and a nuisance for the motorists, cyclists, pedestrians, and neighboring businesses surrounding residents. It's a big nightmare daily for me and my staff. When their parking area does not work, their clients now back into my parking spaces, and when I walk outside to ask them to not have parked there, they say, oh, I didn't see it, because they backed in now. That's their new plan. So they didn't see the no parking towway signs. I thought we lived in a city that follows their own rules and regulations. I guess those rules don't apply to everyone. All I can really say is, wow. I used to be proud to say I lived and worked in Delray Beach as a second-generation native. Currently, I don't feel that way. Wow.

Thank you very much.

Daniel Rose, 33444. Before I start my speech, I encourage you to set up an advisory board for the cemetery issue. I've talked to some people here tonight that I've known for years, and I think there needs to be an advisory board so there can be workshops and charrettes where the people can bring their thoughts to the issue, because I think what you're proposing isn't going to work. I've done litigation in that area, and it's not going to work. Now, as far as with subculture, where's the accountability? You gave them a punch list on March 31st, and you gave them 90 days. We're 135 days in, and somehow what was asked wasn't done. There's no accountability. So my issue is for purposes of this issue, the owner comes into the city commission under oath and says, I'm just a grab-and-go coffee shop. However, outside these walls, he continuously refers to the location as a community gathering place. So for you guys, he's a grab-and-go, but for everyone else, he's a community gathering place. Parking situation has been a mess for over two years now. The owner has done nothing to remedy the situation whatsoever. So you guys create policies, and the people who work for you are supposed to enforce them. So what happens when city employees and staff decide to go against your policies and overtly and openly allow business or businesses to operate without following the rules and there being no accountability. This is why we're here, and this is where we're at. We have someone who continues to make a mockery of the city commission and the policies they created. He continues to misrepresent his issue with this, in my opinion, irresponsible social media posting. None will be more evident today, in my opinion, when he lambasts the city on social media and creates a false narrative that somehow he won his appeal, when in reality the appeals court sent it back to the special magistrate so the opinion can be rewritten in compliance with the law, and the fines are going to be upheld. So we didn't win. There's going to be a new Dunkin' Donuts opening by Tropical Smokehouse. They're doing everything right. They're obtaining their permits. They're doing everything they can the right way, as we call it. But when you look at what I'm dealing with and what Albert's dealing with, everyone else in the neighborhood across the street with that coffee shop, why don't they just open their doors tomorrow without a BTR, without any approval, and there's no accountability, and you've set a precedent. And that's the problem. Good actors are being punished. Bad actors get rewarded. It's time that people in this matter are held responsible and accountable, as much as I've owned businesses still do. I've never fired anyone. I don't believe in that. But in this case, I think people should be fired over what happened. Lastly, I'm opening a new business in Delray. I've done everything right. We should hopefully be open the end of September. Me and my partners got all the BTRs, all the approvals, spent everything we had to spend. I'm even spending money right now on things that I don't need right now, but I need them to remain in compliance with my BTR. Because if I stop paying for certain services that I'm not using right now, I won't be in compliance. So I gave myself pause tonight and I asked myself, why am I spending hundreds of dollars a month to remain in compliance for a business I haven't even opened up yet? when the one across the street doesn't have to do anything and is never held accountable. Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Good evening, Stacey Wright, 33444. Consultants, consultants, they are nothing but out-of-town businesses making money that should be spent on maintenance and the right staff to assist and ask questions concerning our cemetery. We don't need another consultant firm coming in and trying to tell us what we need when we already know what is needed there. Maintenance needs to come from the Parks Department with a full-time worker, and the cemetery needs to come under the city manager, report directly under the city manager. What we really need is a board, an advisory board, to overlook the operation of the cemetery and someone that the community can come to and talk to and voice their concerns. We don't need another consultant firm. We need some action.

Thank you very much.

Good evening. I'm Sandra Owens. My zip code is 33444. My concern is this. You've seen me before, and I'm going to keep coming back. I was reading this manual here. It said the City of Delray Beach Administrative Policies and Procedure Manual dated January 17, 2018. And when I got to the last page, it says the department will compare and reconcile inventory records to intermittent slash disintermittent records on file Any and all discrepancies shall be resolved immediately. Well, I've been here before concerning my plot. You sold it, you buried somebody in it. My concern is this. In 2006, when I finished paying for it, because I didn't install my plans, I paid $500-some dollars. All the city wants to do is give me my $500 back plus the extra $100. I can rest assured that whoever you sold this to did not pay $600 for it. Now, between each commissioner's meeting, I voice my concerns, and I'm telling you, I want to be buried next to my mother. That's it. Between each one of these commissioner's meetings, not one person has called me.

Me either.

And that's a concern. And I live in the city of Delray. My friends live in the city of Delray. I want to be buried in the city of Delray next to my mother. And that's it. And I don't see any harm in that. And I guess it's not going to make any sense until this happens to you. I guarantee you somebody paid a couple thousand dollars for that same plot. And so my thing is, again, I'm Sandra Owens. All I want is my plot. I presented you with the records. I emailed everybody here. It's been two years now. It's been two years. I want my plot. That's all I got to say. Have a good one.

Thank you very much, Mrs. Owens.

Kevin Mitchell, zip code 33444. I commend you all for listening to us on the July 14th meeting, but I share with you some of the concerns that we as members of Delray Beach have voiced in the profession of the funeral service, and several of us that are in the funeral industry got together, and we came up with some core issues that we want to present to the city in lieu of your consultants' recommendations and findings. We would hope that you would listen to this and take it under consideration. a complete and comprehensive audit be commenced specific to the southeast and southwest section of the delray beach municipal municipal cemetery for any pre-purchased available and sold burial plots and mausoleum crypts utilizing comparative of plot cards against the cemetery maps and computer database and reviewing of stored records which may or may not be stored and in storage closets, file cabinets, or boxes that have not been physically inspected and categorized between 2018 and 2026. The 2018 report only reviewed the north section of the cemetery and that was for historical fact finding and analysis. The second one is cemetery operations and administrative and management be relocated from any off-site location and moved to a permanent on-site fixed or leased facility on the grounds of the Delray Beach Municipal Cemetery. For since 1902, 1903, they had a shed that served as a place to store equipment and for the workers. We need to move down on-site is our recommendation. The City Council recommended creating a minimum five-member cemetery board and committee that best represents the interests of the citizens and city consisting of a minimum of one council member, no more than two council members that will serve on this committee or board to make the necessary recommendations to the commission for ratification and actions inclusive of exploration for future expansions, locations, and reasonable costs for burials and attunements with an emphasis on developing a proposed strategic plan for the cemetery. With the significant possibility that the city of Delray Beach Municipal Cemetery become a national historic landmark and being a city treasure and in light of the significant issues and concerns of the citizens that the operational chain of command should be transferred from the oversight of the parks and recreation director to a cemetery superintendent who will supervise the cemetery manager, groundskeepers, and support staff that will report directly to the city manager and or assistant city manager. review, implement, change, and adopt the job description of a cemetery superintendent or manager with a requirement of at least 18 months preview experience in cemetery and funeral home management and a mandatory requirement for sensitivity training and grief awareness be inclusive. and obtained within 12 months of being hired, ensured that the newly constructed mausoleum and future allocated burial gray spaces remain affordable for residents only. And I yield my time. I have one other, but I yield my time. Say the last one. The last one. Yes, sir. To hire, I'm sorry. Set a maximum cap for the number of pre-purchased grave spaces by any one individual who is a resident only with restrictions that they cannot be brokered to a third party but can only be resold back to the city with first option of refusal. When I came into the set a maximum cap, it says in city policy, city administrative policy and procedures manual number CC2, revision 2 January 17, 2018, 2.4, 2.2.4, Sale of services, lot plots, scripts, niches. The sale of intermittent rights shall be restricted to individuals who at the time of sale reside in the city or are purchased for a terminal or deceased city resident or immediate family member of the resident to be interred. The individual must provide adequate proof of residency or kinship. I added terminal as related to the issue I dealt with. I yield my time.

Thank you very much, sir.

Good evening, everyone. Timothy E. Kitchens, 33444. Past president of the Florida Morticians Association, currently now the district governor of Florida, Georgia, and Alabama of the National Funeral Directors and Morticians Association. Of course, a licensed funeral director. I want to first concur with the mayor in his findings of the upkeep of the cemetery, in contrast to the manager of the Parks and Recreations, the cemetery is not being kept the way that it should be kept. Graves are, grave markers are coming up, the grass is looking terrible out there, among other things. but yet I sit here and listen to how the George W. Bush Bridge is being, has been upgraded, but yet our loved ones are out there on 8th Avenue and it's not being taken care of. I want to ask our city manager if he would include professionals that are in the funeral profession to be on a board, to be included in the decisions of what is gonna affect our cemetery and our future going forward. Also, has hard drives on Congress been considered as a site that we could relocate or we could form a cemetery there? We need a commission. We need a task force on that. Also, again, you may be looking at some lawsuits, City of Delray Beach, that you can't stand. Lawsuits. We need an audit from 2020 of the finances of this organization. of this city of Delray Beach Cemetery, we need an audit. Can I say it again? Audit. Audit all the way from 2020 all the way up to the present of the finances and where they have gone and what has been done. Of 2017, I'm sorry, on up to now. And we need that. So city manager, get on your job. Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Hello. I'm sure you all know me. My name is Queen. The first thing I wanted to do is tell Commissioner Burns thank you so much for fighting for us and being a voice because we definitely need it. I wasn't here when you all started, but I heard it on YouTube. And for those that can't make it, understand that you can have your senior citizens that normally come this building and stand up and stand proud and speak up for what we want tell them they can be found this same meeting can be found on YouTube if you need any kind of look so you don't want to go out there because it's hazardous out there I have hundreds of videos on my channel so y'all can see the disgrace that our grave has been enduring and I'm starting with the graveyard part not the cemetery so I wanted to know why would the mayor be sitting here acting as if these are new conversations Why would the city manager be sitting here acting as if they're new conversations? Why would our city attorney, Lynn, be sitting there as if these are new conversations? You all knew this. This is not new. And when you lost my Enoch and you lost my mammy and I came to you in a nice manner asking you to please take care of it, instead of retaliating against me, sending officers stalking me, harassing me, you notice I wouldn't sit down. Because when you're protected, there's nothing you can do. I want to know, I went out there today, there are some new names that's been put on the graves on the north side. Where did you all get those names from? I've been asking for list after list after list after paperwork after vendor after fresh start. Lawn service out there that's doing a crappy job and they can't tell me who hired them, why? Why is a lawn service out there not knowing? Don't look at the time. I know I got the city manager. Why would Fresh Start be out there? Why would Fresh Start be out there? And you all know that they've been have taken care of the job. Or did you condone it? Because I know if Fresh Start is a lawn care service with maintenance, they should have already seen and known that there was nothing that they could do for the fungal that's out there. It's heavily infested. You scraped off the mold and then you scraped off names. So where did you all get the names from if you couldn't provide me the name or the list? That's the question. I also want to make sure when we talk, let's make sure we gear our attention over to the graveyard side. That's the north wing because that's the side that what are you trying to do? Take it from the town? take it from us why because that's a historical land which i want mausoleums there us as a black american community we don't want mausoleums whether we're looking down or not we know god up there we want you to leave our land alone and we want you to make sure that the budget is prepared i mean you got a mayor in a in the middle of a 600 million dollar ponzi scheme There's nothing else we can do but put a budget there. I mean, to be in the $600 million Ponzi scheme, what is $50,000 in my historical land? That's the most historical land other than the beach. That's the most historical land other than the land on the ground. And when you lost my Mamie and you lost my Enoch and you would not provide me with the adequate answers, did you think I was going to sit down? No, I'm never going to sit down and tell y'all, get that ground right. And the next thing I want from you all, because we want the history too, not just in your paperwork, we want the history on paper. We want you to come up with a document so you can tell us if those names were in the system and our loved ones were out there, I want my paper so I can put it in the plaque. That's my historical record. That's our historical record. I have more, but I'll wait for the next meeting.

Thank you very much.

to let the chief of police know that we will get some crime prevention around here. Because I don't know if you all are paying attention, but we have no black American police officers here. Why are there no black American female police officers? Where every time I'm approached, I'm being approached by a white officer.

Ma'am, ma'am, ma'am, please. Thank you.

I had to get that out, because I want the chief of police to know that we have no black female officers.

Hello. My name is Julie Griffin Nixon. My zip code is 33444. And I'm here because I missed the other meeting. I didn't know about it. But I'm here because my parents purchased plots. And my brother was buried in one. My mother was buried in one. My father was supposed to go in the next one and come to find out someone else is already there. What was told to me by Yasmin is that they can't go back and pull up all those documents because they're in a warehouse. It's boxes and boxes of documents where my parents, my grandparents, and my great-grandparents bought pots, paid for them cash money, had the certificates, provided them, but now all of a sudden, we no longer own those plots. So my question is, I understand floods, but there's no digital. At the courthouse, you have digital. If you need to go back so far, you can pull it up digital because it's no longer paper. But the same thing should happen here with the city. It's not fair to me for me and my sister and my brother to come out of our pockets to pay for a new plot for my father to be buried in with monies that we could have spent somewhere else. when he already had a plot, which should have been next to his wife, where he wanted to be buried. So her suggestion to me was, I will get you as close as possible, but you have to pay. So not only did I pay $1,500 to bury my father in the next plot over, the block over, from my mother, but it was already paid for. So I'm not understanding when you say we can't go back. Why? Y'all got our money. When you hired that company to accept money and to say, hey, you guys can pay for your plots ahead of time, you allowed it. So it's not fair to us as citizens to say, hey, you paid your money over there, but we lost the boxes, or we can't go through. She said, we don't have the manpower to go. I said, well, honey, I'll go through the boxes for you. Because really, I did not have $1,500. to bury my father. But guess what? Something happened, and it happened. I got the money to bury my dad. But why should it even come to that? Because somebody else is there now. I couldn't even bury my daddy, even if it was available. I couldn't bury him now. Because guess what? My brother died in 2002. My mother died in 2004. I was going to bury my grandmother in that spot, but my sister took her to Georgia. In 2016, my dad died. And guess what? Somebody was already buried there in 2007. So how is that fair to me? So that's my dilemma. When y'all say, oh, we can't go back because it was a flood, it was this, it was that, that's not fair to the citizens.

Thank you very much. That's not fair. Thank you very much.

Debra Cartwright-Clough, 33444. Good evening, commissioners. This evening, I will speak on the current lack of available ground burial plots in Delray Beach Memorial Garden Cemetery. Despite the availability of alternatives such as a cremation and entombment, many cultures and individuals prefer traditional ground burials. The restriction of burial space in Delray is not limited to a mere logistical problem. It has profound implications for the cost of burials, cultural practices, and even our relationship with the grieving process. Cemeteries hold history, love, and community memories. Cemeteries are places where families return for generation, keeping the lineage alive. This cemetery was established in 1902, and the population of Delray was 1,000. It felt endless, but due to population growth, urban development, and long family lines, a lack of a vision with plans for expansion on the city's part, we are now faced with a cemetery that has reached ground burial capacity. Population of Del Rey now is approximately 70,000, which reflects a growth rate of 1.08 annually. The population has increased by 5.6% since the last census in 2020. As of now, hypothetically, there are approximately 10,000 plus deceased records at the cemetery somewhere. Running out of space is not just a logistical challenge, it's also emotional. The residents of Delray Beach want to be buried in the same cemetery as their other family members. Why can't this be done? A lack of efficient planning by our city officials. Today, we, the city of Delray, is faced with the challenge of lack of space for a ground burial. The city's availability to innovate, adapt, and show cultural sensitivity will be decisive. A solution exists, but its success depends on our collective will to implement them ethically and thoughtfully. Land space is at the highest premium, but we, the city of Delray Beach, a three-time All-American city, and a finalist in 2025, must acquire the much-needed land. We must live up to the civic designation. This recognition highlights the city's commitment to civic engagement and community-driven problem solving. The lack of ground burial is a problem that this community needs an innovative, sustainable solution with positive outcome that will make a real difference in Delray Beach. We must follow a structured process that includes ground maintenance, record and mapping, identifying the land, conducting feasible studies, securing funding, and obtaining necessary approval from local authorities. I, Deborah Cartwright-Clough, licensed funeral director, license number F043653, is requesting workshops, a detailed audit commencing with the year 2017 to the present, a 40 to 50 year plan for cemetery expansion and future growth, a task force which will include a current local funeral directors and owners, a knowledgeable superintendent with funeral experience that reports directly to the city manager and works from an established on-site office. I would also like to know the total number of ground burials broken down from 2017 to the present, including how many were pre-needs and how many were at-needs, and the breakdown of what funeral homes by year presented the request for these ground burials. I reside on 8th Avenue, and I am seeing one funeral home heading to the cemetery every week. I am committed to seeing a sustainable solution with a positive outcome. We, the residents of Delray Beach and the local funeral director owners are committed to building a better Delray.

Thank you very much.

I am very conflicted about speaking, but I came to say thank you. It does not mean to at all demean the passionate community neighbors that spoke before me. My name is Marjorie Waldo, 33444 Arts Garage. All of you here have supported what I've been doing at Arts Garage for the last 10 years in some manner. All of you have. And I have the best job in the world because I'm surrounded by incredible music, theater, comedy, and visual arts. And recently, we had an artist who helped us with a fundraiser. And so I wanted to share with the commission his doodle for our fundraiser. I purchased the doodle today, and as a thank you to the city, I am donating it to the city because I feel certain that you will want it in the conference room. Mr. Marker, forever grateful.

Madam Clerk, there you are.

Hello, how y'all doing tonight? My name is Kedrick.

Zip code 33484. I just want to say I've been in the cemetery business for like over 20 years. I work at other cemeteries. That's what I do. I noticed the problem that you're having is about the lawn baitness. Every two weeks, it ain't going to work. You need some guys out there every week. I'm quite sure y'all can make that happen, have guys out there every two weeks. And I'm noticing that you're trying to go difficult. You're trying to put... paperwork back to on the computer. It's called Legacy. That's what we use at Cedar Pompano. And we're having a problem with our lawn maintenance, but we fix that by having guys right there on the spot. Like we have a foreman on the spot. We have a foreman sitting manager on the spot. And I think that can dial down a lot of complaints that people are having because when they come out there, they're not getting any answers. And that can help you out just... Having somebody, like you can build, whatever you're going to do, you can build something to have out there because I do a lot of installs in y'all cemetery. And I noticed that it's hard to upkeep it. You got them guys out there who work for the city. They working hard, but it just ain't enough. They need more help. That's all it is. And these people need more answers. And we're not always going to run around if we're not going to sit down and just address the situation. And I've been dealing with Yasmin. I call. I get answers. She's okay. She's okay. There's nothing wrong, but she needs to be on the site. And that can help a lot because a lot of people got answers. And I was told if you make it on a historic cemetery, those people who want to get buried less than they love when they go in that cemetery, you're going to be able to touch the cemetery no more. So you've got to look into that before you... make that decision. But other than that, I just want to say, y'all got a beautiful city. And I'm proud to come here and help do work. And I can help you out at the cemetery if you need my help. Thank you. That's all I'm saying.

Thank you very much for your kind offering. Hello.

Hello. This has nothing to do with the cemetery. Oh, come on. This is part of the overhead.

Ma'am, can you introduce yourself? Your name and zip code for the record.

Thank you. My name is Marilyn Parrish. Actually, I'm not a resident of Delray Beach, but I attend Pompey Park Senior Club there. Like I say, and it's not on the agenda, but there's an issue that has come up. And the seniors were not pleased at the decision that they have made as to where the seniors like to come out. They don't want to be at home looking at the four walls. And there's different things that we do there. But they have put a time limit now on when we could be there. as to where before we could stay 3, 4 o'clock because they enjoy playing the different games and stuff, but now we have been told that we have to be up out of there by 1.30. And I don't think that that is right. Stating that they have to make room for the kids or something, but beforehand they had the kids in a different area and there was no problems before when we were there so I'm just saying they're taking life really out of some of the seniors you know because they don't have anything else to do and that's part of when they come there they enjoy themselves and everything and I seem a little nervous, but not really nervous, but we just want to know, is there any way that we can have more time instead of cutting our time short? So whoever it has to go to, I don't know, but we would appreciate if they would extend the time back to where it was before.

Thank you very much. I'm finished. Thank you very much.

My name is Eleanor Parker. I go to Pompey Park also, 33444. I'm going to piggyback on what she said that they are cutting back our time. Also that I wanted to ask a question that I heard the cemetery was going to be maintained by Parks and Recreation and this is what I'm thinking that are you cutting back funds for the senior program due to the fact money's going other places because they are cutting out time cutting different programs like going out going uh different places we used to have items like going to the park or going down to another county and they're cutting a lot of that out and we're wondering why but i did hear something mentioned today about Parks and Recreation would be helping attend the graveyard. So I was wondering, maybe it's all tied in and you're taking monies from the old people.

No, different, different, different. We don't normally answer questions from the floor, but I will tell you that the linkage is not correct. One is not affecting the other at all. But it is a fair point about why the senior center is being changed in time And that's something that I'm actually at the end of the meeting in comments I'm going to direct the city manager to see what the issue is because it could very well be because of the Palm Beach County School Board because when kids are being moved They have to empty out space for others. So sometimes it's I don't know the answer, but we will get the answer for you

There's adequate space there. The point's been made.

We will get an answer for you.

Okay. Thank you. Anybody else have the same question? Yes.

Good evening, everyone. I'm here for a couple reasons. One, my name is Laura Simon. I'm with the Downtown Development Authority, and I am born and raised here in Delray Beach. So first, as a DDA, I wanted just to say thank you to the city. In July, we've had quite a few events, and the city services, city teams, city partnership were amazing with art and jazz and a lot of things that we're doing at Old School Square. We do have one of our last concerts for the summer next week at Old School Square. It's Jimmy Buffett Tribute, so we look forward to celebrating that along with a fun night in Libby Wesley Plaza at Sounds of the Set on the 27th. But I just also wanted to let you know that we have selected a beautification task force focus on downtown beautification as we transition into our next hundred years our city celebrates its centennial this year which is significant a lot of hundreds are running around here we're we're heading some serious milestones and it is serious our family arrived here as assignment our family arrived here in 1911. So I say that because, and I'm going to get emotional, and I apologize. But my father, Roy Simon, passed away two years ago. And he's in the cemetery with my uncle and aunt and my grandparents. And it looks horrible. And I am a city partner and I appreciate the work that happens there. I know it's difficult and I know I've been here since 2010 with this organization and I've seen that the investment that the city has done in that cemetery through the audits, through the studies, through the many, many things. And a lot has been done. A lot has been done. And I say that because there's a lot still to be done. But we have this beautiful gem. We have 500 veterans there. 500. Flags and wreaths are going to be put out there this December. It's amazing. Let's figure it out. We have a lot of work to do just to make it look as beautiful as it can be with the magnolia trees, but just to have buried gravestones that are sinking into the ground that... there's no irrigation there's a lot of things that can be done and I'm in agreement task force are great consultants are fabulous but there's short-term fixes that can be handled and investment funding you all are responsible for funding and where the vestment goes and I think as a priority This community has spoken, you know, I really do and I really I and I that's what I want is that people speak out and I will listen and I as a DDA and I hope that you will too. Thank you.

Thank you very much Seeing no other members of the public wishing to address the Commission public comment is closed We now go to the regular agenda Don't we have to approve the consent?

Approve the consent. Huh? Approve consent.

We approve consent.

You need to do that.

Yeah, I know. So I need a motion to approve the consent agenda.

So moved.

Second. Okay. All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? That's fine. I don't see it. Usually it's right above this, but it's proof of consent, so we didn't do that. So anyway. We are dealing, the next item is former item 6I1, which is now item 7AA, and it's the resolution 107-26, approving the agreement with Dubin and Associates. Presentation will be made by Mr. Sam Meehan.

Good evening, Mayor, Commissioners. Once again, Sam Mita, Parks and Recreation Director. And yes, you just kind of outlined it. This is a renewal of the tennis management contract that oversees both the tennis center here next door as well as the one over on the south side, Delray Beach Swimming Tennis. Dubin Associates has been a long-time contractor for us. We did an RFP contract. over the summer here, and this is the award of that. I believe there were four or five different bidders on that project and the scoring. One of the things I will tell you is that throughout the scoring, one of the main key features are both price and experience, and that's where you'll see the biggest discrepancy in the And the scoring of that is this award was to significantly reduced price compared to many of the other options. And so, therefore, we present this to you for your approval.

Okay. I received, I don't know if you all received, I received a bunch of letters today. And three or four phone calls talking about this. I don't really use the tennis center that much. I know people that do. Some love it. Some have issues. But I think that there was some, by what I'm reading is, and again, I'm only saying by what I've received for the letter. I don't know if they're accurate or not accurate. That they think that They're not happy with the current management. Now, people like management, don't like management. You hear that all the time. And they are asking that we kind of take a look at the grading process to see whether or not the selections that maybe not to necessarily take your selections but to allow the Commission to look at it in a broader scape so everyone the public can hear all of the presentations as to these and then move forward but again I don't use the tennis center I mean I go to the tennis tournaments every time I go you know I've never had an issue so I go to some special events there but I That's essentially what the letter said. Am I correct? So I throw it out to the commission as to what the commission wants to do is to whether or not we want to have them come and make a presentation to us so we have a better understanding of the public and a better understanding of what each of these groups are offering in terms of services or not. And that's really where we are now. Thank you.

Yeah, I will say that, just for the record, this is not a Parks and Recreation scoring system that this goes through our purchasing department. It's legal. No, I'm sure. I'm sure. I just wanted to clarify. This isn't a Parks and Recreation, go get three quotes. This was a formal solicitation.

I guess what the people were trying to say, it's not just a dollar and cents. Managing a tennis court isn't just a dollar and cents item. Well, that's why I mentioned experience. We're going to look at one thing. I may look at something else. A tennis player may look at something else. I mean, we all may look at it from a different perspective. Correct.

And that's why I mentioned the experience part. Correct. No, I understand.

I understand what you're doing. So...

i just say something i'm looking at i'm looking at the agenda cover remember the last time we had um a situation similar to this it was for pompey park and the reason why we did it that time which is basically allow the public presentations was because there was a one point difference this time there's a six point difference and so that doesn't sound like a lot but when you look at scoring that is a pretty significant discrepancy and so you know It's the commission's pleasure. You can do that, but I would just say that our selection committee is based on staff with the training and experience and professional capacity to be able to do this. Not that the commission can't do it, but we really should put staff's almost judgment

At a higher if I if I could list there were parks and rec staff trying to do it I would feel differently and I'm not because purchasing looks at different elements.

We're just a mission on this election committee Her purchasing doesn't typically sit on the selection committee Right you were saying that it's the two points one.

I was just making sure you understood this went through the purchasing department This wasn't just Parks and Recreation getting three quotes they use independent people from other departments that review some of this, but miss Jill I just wanted to double check that When you look at, you said a six-point difference, but I believe it's even much more substantial than that. Oh, I'm sorry.

You're right. It's 50 points almost. I'm sorry.

It was a substantial difference in the score. I just wanted to make sure we were clear for the record.

287 and 238. My apologies. I was looking at two and three.

I'm only responding to the letters that I got today. Fair enough. And I'm the first to say that I don't. You know, people get letters, write letters, and I don't know.

Candidly, when this process was happening, I was under a cone of silence during this, like much of the city. But I received many phone calls, both for and against. And I just couldn't explain too much to them during this process. But it was... both sides making their calls. So I understand what you're speaking of.

That's all. So I'm throwing it out to the commission. What does the commission want to do? I mean, Commissioner Malik, do you have thoughts about Commissioner Marker? Commissioner Casale, you're a user of the tennis facility.

Frequent. I am. And I'm conflicted here for a number of reasons. I did read the letters. And part of the concern is a lot of those letters reference things that are really not the responsibility of the management company, but are in fact our responsibility. funding the capital improvements for the bathroom, even though the bathroom, I agree, I don't love the bathroom. I try to avoid it. But that's our obligation up here. That's not the management company's obligation. And I met with the other management company, and I've played in Boynton. Boynton does look amazing. The gentlemen are lovely. I play here and it's a hard position for me. But I am concerned about the education aspect of it because people should understand what truly is the management company's responsibility and what is not so they can attribute proper blame to us. And one of the things that the current management company has done for us protected us against that and taken the blame every time something doesn't work like the water fountain on court one which didn't work for six months and was really our fault procurement issue you know the whole the way things work in the city is very different and so I well, you know, I'm amenable to what everybody wants. I just want people to understand there's a lot more involved in this process. And, you know, whether or not you agree, I had a lovely conversation with the gentleman who's managing, and he understands some of the shortcomings. I lost an entire team. I was the captain of the top team at the Delray Tennis Center, and I don't have a tennis team anymore. And not to fault anybody, but it's a disappointment, and some people... You know, it's our... It's an amazing hobby. I used to play ladies five days a week. And now I'm playing two with guys. It's a different situation. But if we're doing the presentation, I just want to make sure that we are giving the information out that is imperative to the people. What is the responsibility? And giving proper credit. Jeff Bingo called me for coffee. I spent two hours with him trying to figure out how to get new lights for that tennis center. I'm conflicted on this. I have an allegiance to the current leaders of this facility, and I have met the potential new leaders, and I know some of the pros who work at the other facility, and I have the utmost respect for them. So I'll listen to what everybody has to say.

I'm gonna tell because on Tennyson is real important to the city and I I will be willing to support my colleagues I don't play tennis I very rarely go out there however I know how important it is to the city so I will trust your judgment and whatever you decide I will support that

Commissioner Markford.

Well, again, I'm not a tennis player like yourself, so my knowledge base is kind of thin. But if I throw my corporate hat on, it sounds like there's a lot of interest in maybe, Sam, you presenting to us the results of the RFP that went out. And we can mask some of the names if you prefer to do that.

He doesn't have to mask the names.

That can happen now. And I agree with what Julie said a minute ago. It would help everybody here who doesn't play tennis to understand the responsibilities of the management company versus the city. I think just so we clarify that so that the playing field is level for everybody, I think that would be beneficial.

Yeah, I can try. One of the things that you really are looking at is very similar to the golf course in some ways, like where the management company out there took some heat for the way things are happening, but it is a much older course that, as you all know, needed to be renovated. We deal with some of the same things here. Now, as a city operation, we have tried like crazy for the last number of years to improve that facility. But as you mostly know, there's been very little capital available to infuse into that center. So we've done a lot of... Fix this this year and fix this this year and although it gets better It's still a facility that was built in the 90s and we've read, you know, we've prioritized the courts themselves They've been really, you know redone a number of times We've lighted the stadium. So there's a lot of that day-to-day Structural thing that not everybody loves because it's an aging facility that the management company can only do with what we allow within a budget constraint for them to fix on an annual basis. So that part is true. I will say from a management company that even with those constraints, we've seen an increase in participation over the years as well as an increase in revenue streams.

Mr. Mayor, may I contribute to Mr. Mita's presentation briefly? Yes, please. There are a couple points. First of all, Mr. Marker, last month you talked about the prospect and consensus was offered to bring forth the aggregate path forward regarding the tennis facility, the Tellery Beach Tennis Center. I plan to offer an initial written summary as to what that may look like because we plan to engage in October in terms of what considerations may very well become available. So, Mr. Mithad and I are actually meeting tomorrow afternoon to begin crafting that structure and focus, number one. Number two, in the context of addressing the concerns relative to the specific recommendation for this evening, perhaps it would be appropriate for you to talk a little bit about the price differential via the proposals that were submitted. as part of the evaluation process, resulting in the recommendation being made available. I think that might be helpful.

But if I can just say, I mean, part of the issue is that we hear from constituents, right? And the tennis court's a very important thing. And I don't know enough about it, and I'm the first to say I don't understand it. I don't play tennis. I mean, I like tennis, but I don't play it. But I'm not so sure why it's not a bad idea for us to hear the various management companies and their visions for the tennis court. Which, please, we don't applaud. Well, unless it's for me, and then we feel free. It was. But so, I mean, I understand that you can give all these facts and figures stuff, but I know, I haven't heard the presentations. I don't know whether they're saying, whether a particular management company, and I don't know who the applicants are other than the letter I got today. So I don't know any of them. So if it would be beneficial for us to hear, because we're hearing from the constituents as to what they're looking for, shouldn't we hear the vision of the people that are proposing to manage the tennis court so we can impart our thoughts to them? But we're hearing from the constituents is my point. OK. Yes.

So I think staff already did this evaluation. And I'm hearing a distinction between management and maintenance. and that we don't really have the we don't keep the maintenance as as high as we'd like to but i don't think any of the management companies scope included maintenance i don't know i didn't see the proposals but when staff weighed that out i imagine it had to do it was budgetary correct i'm sorry henry dagwood that's a question cfo resident of delray beach i used to supervise the

Purchasing and Procurement Department, it's now very ably handled by Paul Narcisse. Just want to make two points. This is done by an RFP. First of all, we specify the scope of activities we ask people to respond to. I don't think it was put in there, please give us your vision. We had a scope of what we were looking for and we asked for responses. So maybe in the future, we might ask for something different. As in accordance with all of our RFPs, there's a selection committee. Mr. Meathot might have been on the committee, but he does not select the vendor by himself. So whether it's credit or blame, he should not be given that attribution by himself. So I just wanted to clarify how the world works here in Delray Beach.

Thank you. Again, I thought that's not what I was saying.

no so this isn't know your time are you trying to speak yes well don't you that that was public comment part now that's for quasar judicial I've misunderstood what do you want to do

I would, in this particular instance, I would stick to the staff's recommendation of who they chose.

Okay. Do we want to let these people speak because they made a mistake? I agree. I mean, that's really what we're asking.

They misunderstood, I think. They misunderstood. All right.

I'm going to ask Mr. Meaton if you could sit down. I'm going to give you three minutes to speak. Okay. I will just say that I'm doing it as a courtesy. Thank you for that. Because you've been standing there politely, and you have three minutes.

Great, thank you. My name is Jewel Schlecker.

You're the only one speaking on this matter. Everyone else, if you had your chance, and I know you know better. So go ahead.

My name is Jewel Schlecker. First, I'd like to thank all of you for the hard work that you do and for giving us the opportunity to hear us and express our thoughts about the Delray Beach Tennis Center. Decision to renew the contract with the incumbent tennis management company is a very important one that not only affects Delray residents, but everyone and anyone that plays at Delray. So about me, I'm a captain and a co-captain for about 15 years for various teams in New Jersey and Florida. I currently captain a team at Boynton, and I'm also a former player at the Delray Beach Tennis Center. It's fair and accurate to say that I've been around the block when it comes to tennis in Palm Beach County, and no thing or two when it comes to tennis teams, tennis clubs, tennis courts, tennis pros, and all things tennis. I played at Delray for about five years, going on six, took private lessons with various pros, including tennis clinics, boot camps every summer, as well as countless games and matches from the South Beach County Women's Tennis Association to USTA Claymates. Given what's at stake for the future of the Delray Tennis Center for the next 10 years and beyond, I just want to shed some light on what may or may not be known. As of May of this year, it was estimated that 70 ladies left Delray Tennis to play tennis teams at Boynton and other clubs. By my estimates, I believe the number to actually be higher because on my team alone, I don't want to say the number, but I have more than a handful. And each year for the last three years that I've been aware, there has been an erosion and exodus of players each year with this past May, most likely being the highest number of players that left to date plus tennis pros that have left as well. And if you know anything about tennis players, once they leave, they usually don't go back. It costs about $2,000 to play on a tennis team at Delray, which is higher than most clubs. Let's round up to a hundred players for quick math. The membership costs is 447 for residents or 780 for non-residents. So let's say it's about 600 on average. That's at least $60,000 plus loss of revenue from lessons, clinics, and court fees. So these players that left didn't leave because of the money. They left because of the mismanagement of the tennis center, tennis teams, and mistreatment of their players and pros. You know, the one thing that you don't do is upset your customers or clients. So I urge the commission to hold off on approving this decision to renew the contract with the incumbent tennis management company until the fall. when more residents or more city residents and Delray players are back. Or at least to look and consider the following. Follow the membership to the money. Look at the revenue or loss of revenue for the past three years, especially from this past May, and if at least 70 players are gone, then what that loss is and means to the city. With all the improvements in downtown Delray and surrounding Delray and all the work that you've done to improve the city, that really shows The word on Delray is that it's fun, cool, and vibrant. Unfortunately, the most common words to describe the Delray Tennis Center are deplorable, abusive, and unsafe. Thank you.

Thank you very much. I know, but are you together?

No. I'll be quick.

Yeah, that's good. I won't even take three minutes.

My name is Glenn Udine, 33-445. I've been a resident for 30 years. I've been playing tennis in Delray and around the area in many different courts for all that time. And I would just echo what you said. The courts are a mess, unplayable, unsafe, tripping, sliding. They're not properly maintained. And so when you talk about maintenance versus management company, maintenance of the courts is a key part of what the responsibility is for the management company that's running the courts. That's probably the number one thing. And, you know, I play on a team that we decided not to have any of our home games at Lavers because it was embarrassing to have other clubs come and play at that facility. So I would say do everything you can to reconsider and to listen to the management companies to give them your pitch.

Thank you very much. And I'm going to allow one more. I will say, by the way, with our new instructions, we don't talk about quasi and quasi. You'll get the chance to speak later. So while I do understand we're doing it for the civility portion, we need to add that part back so that people are not confused as to when they can and they can't speak. So I'm not blaming anybody. There are new instructions here. We're probably, we need to amplify it a little bit so that it's clearer as to when you can and can't get up. So please identify yourself for the record.

Hello, Sharon Painter, 33445. I'm with the current management company. I actually am the CEO. And the contract, I've heard the complaints. I've met with some of these ladies. I've met with the team ladies. I met with Jean Mills, who is in the USTA Hall of Fame. She's been the Florida president. She started the South Palm Beach Ladies Tennis Association. And they have rules, and it's a little different in tennis. Everybody in tennis kind of wants to go the next level higher, where in golf, we all want to have a handicap that's higher. We want to go the other way. And so there was some discontent because some people, if you don't win as many matches, you have to go down a team or go up a team. Some ladies left. Two of the people on the other team, on the other management company, they worked for us at Delray Beach Tennis Center. They're good guys. But we have increased 177%. The revenues, they're not going down. They're going up. You can look. That's on the city books. The participation, it's all about programming. It's not just about the ladies leagues or the men's. It's the kids. It's everybody in the city. It's about running special events. The courts are so bad, but Coco Gauff is here. Francis TFO is here practicing. We've run – why did we just get picked for the Billie Jean King Cup again if we're so bad? We've had the – I mean, there's just a lot of things been going on here. We have the experience. We've been running the tennis commercials. We bring in a lot of extra revenue when we have the events around here. So, I mean – Like I said, look at the money, look at the revenues, and look at our team. They've done an excellent job. And when the city, they didn't choose us for the golf course, so it's not like they're on our side. They chose by what was the best for the city.

Thank you.

Thank you very much, Sharon.

Again, Mayor and Commissioner, if there's anything else I can answer, happy to do so, or I'll leave it to you.

Okay, would you, I mean, I'm going to ask Commissioner Casale this, I mean, because you are, would you say that what was represented is your experience as well?

I would say that the gentleman is 100% correct that that facility over at Lavers needs a ton of money put into it, and I wouldn't dispute that. I slide too, but sometimes I want to. I just don't want to fall. I don't, I wouldn't, I don't know dangerous is a strong word, but there's also, you know, we have the above ground watering system, which is very different than on Atlantic where you have the watering system under the courts. There's a lot to it. I mean, have women left? Yes. Have they left unhappy? Yes, half of my team that I no longer have because we didn't have a team went to Boynton with a few pros. Pros left for, and I won't argue that they weren't, the justification wasn't unreasonable. So I'm not going to say that any of what they're saying is untrue at all. But I do, you know, also... understand there's a monetary component to this, that if we are opening this up, we have to be prepared. And I know also, look, when we have this tennis tournament, the whole facility becomes a different job in a different place. And when I asked Sam, tell me about this RFP and what's going on, some of the components that are required, how many years has this organization been in business it's a factor do they have experience with certain things that go on at this at the tennis center because we are a much bigger facility where two locations we have pickleball we have the stadium there's a lot of components to it if you want to hear the presentation so that you understand all the components to it then do it. But I think at the end of the day, the biggest issue we need to ask ourselves up here, do we want to pay a lot more money into the tennis center, because that's part of the issue. Whether you're contracting with another organization. I just did a cursory review online. Their RFP to Boynton Beach was way substantially higher than our RFP. what we're paying our management company so if we're opening this up we have to be prepared to pay a lot more money and and their facility is smaller it's not two facilities so there's a lot of components to think about they're lovely gentlemen i wish this situation weren't this way this is is hard for me half of my friends are no longer playing at delray and i'm trying to you know figure out how to get games. It's not amazing, but sometimes I think what Ms. Painter says is sometimes that stuff happens in tennis for reasons that, and I've had very honest conversations with the gentleman running the facility. He can be a little rough.

I mean, one of the things I think that I would be, you know, you've said something which is interesting. I mean, a lot of things, but, you know, we don't understand up here what it takes, what expenses. And I think one thing, if we heard all the presentations, we would better understand what the maintenance costs are. The maintenance is totally separate.

Where we are failing. You're completing two things. There's a management contract, and then there's maintenance.

I'm not, but part of the management contract is what we need to do, and I don't think we understand what, I don't really, I don't know what we need to do at the tennis center, quite frankly. I hear from different things, and by hearing the different presentations, maybe I'm better informed. listen if you need more information we'll get more information i'm not opposed i'm always you know me i'm always asking for more information big asset for the city and i think if they're going to if they all come up and say look we can manage this for you for this price but you're going to need to spend this i'd kind of like to know that right you know and we that's what we don't know now so That's, I guess, where I am on that. Because I'm confused. I don't understand.

So let's talk the logistics of this. Are we then, so what is the contractual date that this contract was supposed to begin? Are we already in their contract period currently of the current arrangement?

No, the current contract has not expired. Depending on time frames, it may need... 60 to 90 day extension from the city manager to make sure you don't have an overlap, but you can I just don't tell my head I don't know the date

Okay, and are we then going to have to allow, are we asking for a staff presentation, or are we going to allow every RFP applicant to come in here and do a presentation?

It would not be a staff presentation. If you want to reject the recommendation and ask for presentations, Sam indicated there were five proposers. You don't have to have them all come in. You don't have to have them all come in, but you can say we want the top three, the top two. You can make that determination.

I think if you're being fair, you have to have all five come in.

Well, you know, I don't mind having all five, but we just have to have a brief, you know, I don't want them each coming in for 15 minutes. If they want to come in for, you know, like five minutes, so we keep it a manageable time.

Five minutes to explain to you the whole process? Well, 10 minutes, I guess. It's a 20-minute presentation. Respectively, you're probably looking at a whole workshop now. Oh, why not a double? It's not all day.

It's two hours. We'd have a special meeting. Yeah, just because we're going to have an action item. I would recommend the top three.

That would be my recommendation.

The top three? Okay, that's fine. I don't know who they are. Well, I know who the top one was because I read their name.

I mean, to be perfectly fair, I'm looking at the agenda item and what i would recommend going forward is that all of this information be included in all i think all of the proposals should have been included for you because i think a lot of these questions would not be asked today that would have been helpful well perfect right i mean we wouldn't be debating this this is a management contract the maintenance is separate does the management company make recommendations to you on what maintenance is necessary yes

but as a commission you give that budget to sam and then he you know effectuates the policy that's given so and i would like to i would like to see if there's consensus for the touch for a presentation for the top if we do a special meeting we've got time for the top three result getters you know um come in to make make a presentation in our workshop so that we can Hear from them what it takes to manage it, what we should expect to pay for it, and to make it a world-class facility. Because you're right, when we're doing our big tennis tournaments, boy, we're doing great. But the rest of the year, it may be a different dynamic.

The only thing I would ask is I think we need to hear, and maybe it's from you, Sam, what are the maintenance needs that we have? I don't know that it makes sense for us to have the three.

We have time to get into the weeds a little bit more if we're going to have another meeting. But just so everyone understands, there's multiple levels and types of maintenance. There's capital improvements. There's structural maintenance. But then there's daily court maintenance that they do do. So I just don't want to use the blanket term maintenance. They do have some. We have some.

Capital improvement and operational maintenance.

it's two very distinct yeah do we have consensus for a special meeting to do this yes for the top three yes one two three yes yes yes sure so to summarize ladies and gentlemen we're looking at some time in september we need we need a motion so it would be a motion to reject the recommendation

to approve the agreement with Dubin & Associates with direction to schedule a special meeting. I'm sorry, was it the top three or you want all five?

Top three.

I think you should do all five if you're opening it back up. Give them to all five.

If you want to do all five, let's do all five. So moved for all five. Okay, so we got a motion for all five. Second. We got a motion to deny with a think for all five. Do we have a second? Second. All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Fine. Adopted.

Thank you all for your time. Thank you, Sam.

Thank you, Sam. Didn't mean to put you on the spot there.

A dozen times.

Okay, regular agenda, City Manager Performance Evaluation 7A. Dwayne D'Andrea, it's your turn.

Mayor, Commissioners, good to be in front of you. For your consideration, tonight is the City Manager's Performance Evaluation.

Dwayne, can you talk closer for me? Thank you. I know you're talking.

For your consideration, tonight is the City Manager's Performance Evaluation. We know that you've done them, you've received them, all the City Manager has seen them. reviewed them and knows the score, the aggregate score for the city manager's performance evaluation was 3.3, and that is up for your consideration tonight.

What was the aggregate last year?

I don't have that number. I didn't bring that number.

Then the average, what you said, was what? 3.3. 3.3.

It was 3.3 last year as well.

Okay. Thank you.

So I motion that we go with the 3.3.

Is this retroactive retroactive yes Make a motion that we go with a recommended 3.3 Retroactive to this anniversary date the anniversary date. I

Second. All in favor? Aye. Any opposed?

I'm sorry. I am. My number was below the three, and therefore, I'm not in support. I'm sorry, Mr. Moore. Although I will say, I'd like to say publicly, and I noted this in my review, I think there has been improvement. I've very much appreciated that you're doing a really better job of getting a consensus, and I did make some positive notes because my review did increase from last time.

By the way, I would ask that you send to each of the commissioners all of the events. So we all know each other's evaluations. I did. Oh, you already did that? Okay, that's fine. I didn't see it. All right, thank you. I barely got my own email.

I turned mine in in paper today because I printed it in silent.

Yeah, mine too. thank you 7b discussion of of potential amnesty program for outstanding special events costs owed to the city for events held prior to september 30 2024 assistant city manager orris you have the floor mayor on this i'm sorry on this matter um vice mayor vice mayor burns is not going to participate um there's a conflict of interest for her oh okay well then does she need to leave the room

She will be leaving the room.

Oh, would you go pick up a burger or something?

Really?

If I'd have known you were leaving, I'd have ordered a pizza. You could have gone picked it up.

and paid for it of course Jeff horse assistant city manager as you know we've had some some discussions at this level about there are a couple of outstanding invoices due for special event costs of the city a number of them are older some of them are a little bit newer and The idea is what exactly do we do with these? How do we handle these? The important thing really is that we want to make sure that we're collecting money that we should collect, that we're not having ongoing issues with folks who are putting on events. So we did look at the outstanding invoices. What we've got at this point is 44 distinct unpaid invoices due from 23 different special event producers that are more than 12 months old. Producers whose costs have been waived in the past, this is one of our big issues, indicated when we changed our special event policy, And we made it clear that we did not have the ability to waive costs. They felt they were unaware of this in their eyes and felt they didn't have to pay these. And several of those invoices have not yet been paid. Some of those outstanding invoices are also businesses or organizations that are no longer operating. They're just gone. So what we did devise in order to try to get some money out of some of these folks is to be a temporary amnesty program that would be available to producers of special events held prior to September 30, 2024. This is the point at which no one's complaining that they didn't know they were supposed to pay. That's why we chose that date.

Oh, excuse me. I struggle with that statement.

Up to 90% of the outstanding amount due will be discounted if they pay prior to October 30, 2026. If by the end of the day on that date they have not paid, no discount will be offered moving forward, and the full amount due will need to be paid to reinstate them. Any producer, we did want to make sure that if people participate, there is something they've got to stay on board with us. And that's that if any producer that participates in the amnesty program that has a future invoice, that becomes delinquent under the city's receivables policy, which is once it's 90 days old, it's declared delinquent. that that producer would then lose the – first of all, they have to pay us back before they can do anything more, and the producer would lose the right to host an event for at least five years. The decision to allow them to host events after that five years would be up to the commission. They would have to appear to the commission, and the commission would need to reinstate them. payment in full will allow these folks to be able to submit to host new events the program was like I said will assist the city in collecting some of the outstanding amounts that are due currently it's it is questionable whether we would get anything from any of these producers I also want to make it a point that since this timeframe, we have not really had any problems collecting on events. Even those folks who have said to us, we don't think we had to pay you, you never told us, all understand that if they do an event now, they have to pay us. We're much more diligent in getting invoices out in a timely manner. We did have a period of time where they were not going out very quickly. Since we hired the special events manager, she has time to devote to making sure people are paying the invoices are getting out all costs are coming in from all city departments the penalties that are allowed in the 2024 special event policy have allowed us to tell people you can't submit a new application until you pay for the old one so we don't have those issues um additional changes to the special event policy are being contemplated that will make it very clear what these penalties are if you don't pay we're looking at adding a 1.5 monthly late fee onto any amount that's not paid and include additional penalties for those who have more than two invoices that have declared delinquent those are people do not participate in this program if you participate in the program you get one shot at it and that's it now um I did also want to state that right now, like I said, those penalties are there, but they're not real clear. It says these are the things we can do in penalties, so we want to make it clear these are what's at stake here. That's the quickie version of this.

You and I have had this conversation. I also spoke to Mr. Dockowitz about it. I fundamentally don't like charge-offs. I just don't like charge-offs. I had a conversation with a couple of the people that I know who do special events. Now, they happen to all have paid. But one of the problems, and I think the city has The whole process has lent itself to this happening. I mean, I understand we've now changed the rule. When you do an application to do a special ed, we're taking a deposit, not just an application fee. So we have a sum of money. Whatever that deposit is, depending, I guess, on what you think it's going to be. I'm using as an example the Rotary Club, for example, who does their Kentucky Derby event. They don't really know the cost before they go in until they get the bill afterwards and they pay it. They get a general idea what it's going to cost, but they don't really have a bill, and they're told you're going to get billed. they get billed they paid some of these people when they would speak about this said well we didn't know we were going to have to pay anything or we didn't expect to pay this much i feel sorry for that but that's i i can't believe that within the applications that i've seen that they filed that they weren't aware that a fee would be due the fact that they didn't know how much it was going to be maybe it's partially the city's fault but it's certainly partially their fault too because you know they they knew that they were going to be i mean we had police departments we had we had we provided infrastructure capabilities for them to do their events so they knew that there was a cost you know i always use my little old lady lake ida example but she's not paying for some festival for some event that she's unrelated to so that's got to be paid by the event people themselves So, I mean, some of these people I agree you're never going to collect from.

Mayor, if I may, there is a mechanism for writing off organizations where someone passed on or they aren't in place. You currently have that mechanism. This presentation, I frankly, Jeff, think it's baloney. First and foremost, any one of these old outstanding you could have already written off. This is all in order to write off a couple things that you, frankly, in my opinion, should not be writing off. We had someone appear at the lectern and say all those OSS bills were paid. Mr. Moore has since told me there's no cash checks and none of them are. So not only are we talking about before you even get to the writing off part, the residents have already incurred expenses. the soft expenses, correct? So each one of these events, you're giving the person at the outset 50% off, correct, of the costs, because you're not charging them all the costs of the services.

If they're a nonprofit.

That's correct. So right out of the gate, you've already given them something. You've given them 50% off. Now they haven't paid, even though there is a policy that says if you don't pay, you don't get an event. They've not paid. They're allowed to continue on and have event after event after event incurring over $30,000 worth of expenses to the taxpayers and presumably an additional $30,000 worth of non-charged expenses to the taxpayers. And the only reason why we're having this conversation is because our city manager went to Burning Conversations and made a promise that he would write off the expenses during one of Mrs. Burns' events. And now he's trying to figure out how to. No disrespect, Mr. Moore. I've already said this. And well, you know what? That's what happened. And the whole bottom line is, the reason why you don't have the authority to write off these expenses is because you've already written off for one of the parties that is now looking for an additional write off. So let's tell the residents what it is, because the taxpayers are going to pay for this. I am not in favor of this. You can go online. If an LLC has not been in business for five years, write it off. If the person is dead, write it off. If they're out of business, write it off. But if they are currently active in this city, they do not deserve a write-off or amnesty. And let's just follow the rules we have in place, which are if you don't pay, you get no other events. Because what I see in this list is event after event after event, even though there are nonpayments. And I find this upsetting.

Thank you. Commissioner Malika, you were raising your voice there.

Well, I know that a number of the, at least I can speak for OSS, because I saw the paid invoices. And it was requested that checks be picked up from the bank. These are over seven years old. The banks don't have those checks any longer. It shows in the accounting. checked they're checked off but if that's not good enough and none of the invoices on here can even be produced by the city so I think there was some problem in invoicing and collection and and accommodating the right payment for a time so with respect to that and also some of the the people putting on these events and I'm not including OSS because they knew the deal but some of these other people will told there's no expense then there was an expense they get a $7,000 bill I do agree with the amnesty program our system was messed up and we got to do something to fix it or just keep this sheet and keep letting us bug us forever but there were invoices not sent out there were payments not recorded so there's a problem and we're trying to fix it and I don't think it's a certain promise made to one individual as much it is is these are all pretty much old for the most part they're very old invoices what's the latest 23 well no I'm not talking about look some of them are no here's some 2024 I mean 418 to 2024

327, 327, 24. There are some. I mean, I'm agreeing that the ones really before 2020 would be hard to figure out what those are. And we have a couple here of like 2005.

The city has a write-off ability, Mr. President. Mayor.

Say that again, please. So I – Oh, I'm sorry. Again, so you've had your – Mr. Marker? Yeah.

Are you finished?

I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah.

I was just trying to hear what everyone else was saying. Okay.

Mr. Marker, you've got to do one at a time. You're right. Go ahead. I just have a couple questions, Jeff. Have we contemplated sending these overdue invoices out to a collection agency? I know you pay a fee for it, but I've used them in business in the past, and if we could get half the money from them, that – Would be good.

And unfortunately, when we reached out to the city's collection agency, they basically said they can't collect on anything more than five years old.

That's probably true.

So that's a large number of those items.

I fear that our records would be such that we have a tough time to enforce.

But I would say, you know, if that's the response we got, for me, the five-year-old invoices, we probably ought to consider writing off.

He has the option to write off. We do have a write-off policy in place at the present moment.

And just the other simple question, why do we not charge people before the event? Or why are we not collecting money before the event? We are now collecting a 50% deposit. Why wouldn't we collect the whole thing? I mean, if we're having all these problems.

We don't really know what the cost will be. Some of these things are, you know, they're waiting to get their revenue through the event. It would be difficult if we did.

It does make sense, but at the same time, our taxpayers are footing the bill for people that aren't paying their bills.

Ladies and gentlemen, 50% up front if a man just likes to help respond to the question.

50% upfront based on estimates for charges associated therein as a best practice. And not only municipalities, but any and all special event venues and activities, et cetera. So by virtue of benchmarking as well as updating our policies over the last two years, really, we've gotten to a place in which this is no longer an issue, thankfully. Once the final estimate is closed out and squared away, we do tweak it such that we cover our expenses and secure the payments up front without any delay. And as Mr. Orris put it a little while ago, we haven't had any issues and challenges since implementing these policies. So I like what we're doing prospectively. We've done well. in terms of updating the policy. And quite frankly, myself along with Mr. Orris and others, we've experienced a little bit of static because we have this policy in place where about 50% is now required upfront. But we insist upon it because it is a good best practice, number one. Number two, it does resolve a lot of issues and challenges that have been experienced prior. So our interest is to move forward prospectively given the history of transactions and misunderstanding, miscommunications you heard going back to the early part of the year. Nevertheless, I think we should give the process we currently have in place an opportunity to continue to be successful because this has been working well. So I have no concerns about that. The office of the city manager of the departments, we all are in alignment in this regard. Nevertheless, this is the remaining outcome so that we can receive appropriate direction. And please.

Could you just clarify for the residents that you produced a document and sent it to us yesterday? I think you sent it to me or I don't recall that maybe the day before. regarding the outstanding balances, that those numbers that you gave in your original document of over 31,000 are still the number that stand.

You are specifically referring to the Old School Square Center for the Arts. You specifically asked me for updated information in terms of what that looks like.

Correct.

It was just discussed here as well that there's some continued discrepancy but our calculation is $31,000 and change to your point.

Because you don't have any identifying cash checks or Any identifying movement through our system of those amounts.

And that's a continuous process. I've asked everybody to work amicably with one another to continue to try to get to the bottom of it. But at this particular juncture, without finalizing that process, that's where it stands.

Thank you.

All of the old OSS ones are now more than five years old. So I'm kind of following what they're doing. And at some point, and I preface my remarks by saying I don't like write-offs. I mean, I don't like it. But at some point, are we better off to write off portions and move forward or spend our time trying to collect? Where we can't which well, I don't know if we can I don't know roots cultural festivals 23,000 I don't know. Do they have any money? Do they still in business? I don't know, you know these I mean some of these groups are certainly still operating, you know and a token payment back of 10% is a This you know, I don't know what I don't know their other fundraising capabilities. I just I just don't know so I

Well.

But, I mean, it kind of begs the question for all the other special events you did pay.

Right. So do we.

Well, I mean, most people who do special events pay.

Right.

And so are we now saying, well, you know, because of what, you know. Agreed. Look, I can, as I said. I mean, you know, I've done them with Kiwanis. I've done them with Rotary. I've done them. They all pay. I mean, they all do. I know.

And everyone else prospective of fall 2024 is paying via the policy applications we talked about. So I would like to ask the commission to be mindful of the fact that we've updated our policies fairly productively to get to a place in which the previous issues and concerns are no longer continuing to be issues and concerns. So we have a good process in place. We're doing quite well in that regard. Ninety-nine percent, quite frankly.

And quite frankly, what I tell you, it's not even the policies that made the big difference. It was that the commission created a position of a special events manager, and that person... has the ability to go and chase these things down and has a relationship with all these producers. And right now, the person in that job right now, Allie Behrman, is really doing a good job of following up and making sure these things get paid.

It's part of the process going well.

And all the invoices are going out.

Could I ask Mr. Dockowitz to hop up? Because I think he probably has additional information for us. Thank you. Sorry, Mr. Dockowitz. So we can get this situation resolved and move on to the next item.

So just while he's walking up here, are we talking about, applying this amnesty for the ones that are still outstanding five years and thereafter? Or are you just looking at it for certain? I mean, if they're still within a period where a collection agency would do it, are we talking about that period? We're talking about a five-year look back?

I think the intent was to look at everything. All right. I'm just asking what your focus is. Okay. Mr. Dockovitz?

Do you have any more information on this? I mean, you produced that spreadsheet.

I'm in a very awkward position because I report to the city manager.

Mr. Moore, can you ask him to please answer that question honestly for us?

What do you mean honestly?

Yes, he said I report to the city manager. I'm in an awkward position. I can ask him questions now.

What question?

He said, I'm in an awkward position because I report to the city manager. I'm asking him to answer. What is awkward about your answer?

This process currently is coordinated between the person who is administering special projects and treasury analyst, Sherry Dungy, who reports to me. They're working very well. They have implemented changes. And moving forward, I have high confidence that this will be resolved. Thank you.

I do as well.

Okay. Historically, Sherry and I were asked to work on this starting a year ago.

Okay.

Sherry has, remember, she has all the financial records. She sends out invoices. Apparently, and again, I wasn't here, the person who was handling special projects in the past before Allie was here, inconsistent. Some may have been good. Some weren't good. Some maybe the position was vacant. Okay? So what Sherry and I did is we triaged the list of all the open amounts that were owed to the city. And we put them into three categories. We said those that are current, the most recent projects, we're not going to worry about. Everyone seems to be complying. As we went through this process, people started paying, seems to be working going forward. We did talk to our collection agency, who told us that Florida state law says if it's more than five years old, we can't pursue it.

Okay.

So that was one bucket. And then in between was everything which I call politically sensitive.

Politically sensitive. Yes.

Right. And we've had lots of discussions about how to handle those. And my feeling was, as the mayor has mentioned, I've been doing accounting for 50 years. Write-offs are a very sensitive point. We want to send a message that you must pay the city and that if you don't, there are penalties. So we talked about that. And my idea was that if someone doesn't pay us back, whether it's old because legally they are not required to pay us back or whether they just don't pay, that there should be penalties.

I agree.

Okay. And I think when we talk about they didn't expect to pay, I think that changed two years ago when the commission changed the rules that instead of the city manager being able to write off amounts at their own pen and now it had to go before commission there was a dilemma so many of the people who signed up for projects before then the city manager And again, some of this goes obviously before Mr. Moore's history with the city could just say, no, you don't have to pay. And maybe that's what their expectations were. Maybe that's why there were problems. Okay. So my idea, there's an old accounting trick that when you write off receivables, you keep it on the books for a penny. That way you have the name of the account. so that you know there was a debt there that was not paid. So financially we write it off, we take the expense, but we know who these people are. We then tried to look at them and the penalties I had were that they shall not be allowed to book a new special project, they should not be allowed to get a grant from the commission for non-profits because we're mostly dealing with non-profits and I found out from Jerry that neighborhood and community services gives grants to non-profits and she said show me the list I'll put them on some restricted list so it's sort of we don't like customers of ours arbitraging well we'll screw the city in one area and they're so stupid they don't talk to each other and they don't coordinate and there's no penalty And we worked with Ali and Sherry to say if someone's on that bad list, that they shouldn't be allowed for a new project. You've heard that with phishing emails, the bad guys sometimes just change a letter or a number. We found people applying for special projects that were on the bad list who tried to change a letter or a number because we're so stupid and we don't catch anything. They caught them. So there's obviously intent to defraud the city and everything else. Let me talk about OSS. When someone says to me, here are my records. You see, we paid and we credited our payable. We debited our payable. We paid. When I have a dispute with a vendor and I say to the credit card company, I already paid. I have to show them a canceled check or a wire transfer. My internal accounting records are meaningless. Sherry worked long and hard with OSS, and they gave us internal accounting records, which proves nothing. A payment voucher doesn't mean it was paid.

They can, in fact, go to the bank to try to get those canceled checks, but they were too old.

I'm sorry. Excuse me. I know that if I'm disputing an expense, I keep those records. The IRS has five years, seven years. I'm not blaming anyone, but the point is if someone, a customer of mine, can't prove that they paid. I understand the city's perspective exactly.

They're just too late.

No, no, that's my perspective. Right, right. So going forward, that was what I proposed. And then this went on for months and months and months. And Mr. Moore and Mr. Orris were working on how to handle this. And they came up with this final package of temporary amnesty. I don't see anything temporary about it. It's permanent, forever. maybe it's one time and that's what your intent was was one time only you get an amnesty now never to be done in the future so that's fine but it was their proposal as chief financial officer steward of our funds looking at budgets where we're trying to balance the many more demands for funding sources right then we have money And it's a juggling act, right? Like a good contract, if everybody's just a little upset, we're doing good. And just tonight I've heard about five different things that need resources and is under-resourced. I have stated that I feel before we even go to cost reductions, which might affect the level of service, we should be looking at collecting all of the monies that are owed to the city and aggressively setting up policies and procedures to implement them.

Thank you.

So that's my perspective.

which we have successfully and productively implemented policies and procedures, which have served the city quite well over the last couple years. Much of this goes back previous years, and as you stated, we're working to get our handle, get our arms around it to the extent possible. So some suggestions in response. I'm really worried about the city's record. I'm really worried about...

Some of these are very recent. Before you all got here, I mean. 24, 25.

Well, the 24, 25, I don't know. We're all set for 2025. Well, the Roots Cultural Arts Fair is $23,000. I don't know anything about that. I think I actually went to it. I know I went to it. It was on the thing.

My recommendation, just to be more complete, was that we shouldn't just look at the name of the institution. We should look at the key individuals who are involved with that institution so that they can't just change the names or set up a new nonprofit so that, again, I don't want to look stupid that one side of the house is not getting paid, and yet we're not enforcing any pain or discipline on that non-performance.

Look, notwithstanding what we decide with respect to the amnesty or not, that has to be the rule. And ladies and gentlemen, we have to be able to know that the managers, because I changed the name to TFC LLC 1, and I come back next year with TFC LLC 2.

It's the same TFC. Mr. Mayor, we've implemented that. That's actually part of the process to incorporate that. That's all a part of the mix as well. So all those points, all those practices have been implemented. We should put this to a vote.

Go ahead. What's the other issue?

Well, here's another issue. Lynn Jelen said that we cannot do a group approval. This is at one point during this process. We have to go name by name and ask each commissioner if they have any conflict of interest with the entity. We all know one entity where there was a conflict, and Ms. Burns has excused herself. But I've been involved in securities offerings where people have to attest that they are qualified investors, and I have to go name by name. And if they don't qualify, I have to say, sorry, I'm not selling stock to you. But if you don't ask the question, you never get the answer. And I was very disappointed to hear that that process wasn't being followed, because we don't know who else might have a conflict of interest, which affects everything.

I'll just say, for the record, I don't have any conflict of interest.

Yeah, I don't think I – well –

But I thank you and appreciate that consideration.

Anything in the last five years, I don't have a conflict. But it's the right question.

I go back to my comment about collection agencies, at least for the current debts. Why don't we give this to a collection agency to go after these people? Because I know the game. They change LLC. They change the name of the company. But the collection agencies have kind of been around the block on this stuff.

Well, the current ones we're collecting, so we don't have a problem.

Yeah.

The old ones, we can't. So we're talking about the middle ones. This is the proposal that has been presented.

Yeah.

If I may just add a couple things. One, finance has a seat on SeaTac, and they are to review that. That's one of the reasons why we're catching them. along with risk management, they're also now there for various reasons.

I don't understand what you're talking about. Is this still the conspiracy where not-for-profits are changing their name? I didn't hear you properly.

Yeah, so the intent is there is a seat for the finance department. Wait a minute. Steentech has finance? Yes. Okay.

Special Events Technical Advisory Committee.

Sherry gets the agenda. She reviews, and that's how she's caught someone. Who invited her? She's been on the list for quite a while.

I haven't had an opportunity.

Gentlemen, I like to keep the focus of the City Commission.

We've had many discussions, many gyrations in this regard. Much clarity has been achieved. Policies have been working quite well since implementing them in the fall of 2024.

I have one more question about the amnesty. Are you giving amnesty and then allowing people to have other events? Is that how this is going to work?

If they participate, yes, they would be reinstated. Although, as I mentioned, if they're I'm not in favor of that. Throw them out.

I'm not in favor.

Sorry. I think if you haven't paid your bills, we aren't going to do any more business with you. Why would we suddenly trust you? You wouldn't do that in your personal life. Like, no, I think if they're on this list, they refuse to pay the bill or they've changed their LLC. No, you can't do an event here. Sorry.

Do you want me to make a motion to deny approval of resolution number?

We're not finished yet, but when we get there. There's no resolution.

Let me ask, does it make a difference if we're saying that the amnesty amount isn't 10%, but if they pay 50%? Is there a number out there that is acceptable?

Well, the thing is, you guys, we're talking about not-for-profits. Like, everybody here did something for the community. It's fraud. It's fraud. It's fraud. Is it fraud? It's fraud. Is it fraud, Commissioner Marker? No, it is fraud. If they didn't know that they had to pay $1,400 to put trunk or treat... out in the back of the funeral home?

If they didn't know, I get over it.

Well, how can you attest to whether they knew or not?

Well, how can you attest that they don't know?

Because that's the narrative. They're not paying their bills. We knew that they weren't being told. And some of them weren't even invoiced. They're not paying their bills. If they weren't invoiced, how would they know they had a bill?

Ladies and gentlemen.

They got an invoice at some point. Ladies and gentlemen. Everybody on there got an invoice. Yes, yes. Mr. Moore.

Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to move forward. My interest is to not create static or discord in any way. That's never been the intent. Concerns have been brought to the attention. They've been presented to the commission early 2026 and we made a commitment to try to evaluate different opportunities to be responsive and attentive in this regard. We work closely with the Department of Finance,

office of the city manager everybody worked collaboratively to try to attempt to come up with some approaches that may make sense in this regard commissioner casale you talked about the five-year-older ability to write off i think that's true as far as any if that is defunct you can write it off if the person has passed on as someone discussed you can write it off you have write off ability so this is just a way to excuse people and it's i'm going to say no disrespect and everyone's going to say it's disrespectful who should know enough that they owe the money, who have had many, many, many events. It's not one event. It's numerous events. And know the process. And who have come accustomed to getting things written off. Know That is what was going on.

Does the city have a write-off policy that they've done in the past? Yes, they do, Judy. I'm not familiar with it. Well, ask Mr. Moore. He probably is.

The write-off policy is simply what we just talked about. Five years or older, write-off. It's of the party. This is making a special. Because it's uncollectible. Because it's uncollectible, that makes it write-off.

The problem you're going to wind up with what you're suggesting. Is it nobody's ever going to pay their bills anymore because we go to this goofy little process and everything gets written off?

Well, I don't think that's what's going to happen. I don't think we're establishing a rule now where that wouldn't happen because we're going to be getting deposits. Secondly, my issue is that I think these people on the list got used to not having to pay, whether it was the city's fault or their fault or something. Right. and you know um and and maybe they were led to believe they wouldn't have to pay maybe they maybe they thought that it was going to be something else maybe i i think the city you're creating i think the city should have been i guess what i'm saying is i think the city should have been trying much earlier in time to affect these collections okay you're creating now we're going back right up four or five years ago and i always say well you know at some point You know, that's the dilemma I'm having because, I mean, the recent ones I really have no issues with. But when you have, I mean, I don't know what was said to any one of these entities that applied for these permits to do their event. I have no idea. I don't know when they got their bills. I don't know if they got their bills. Some said they never got bills. That would not terribly surprise me, the way the city used to be run. That would not surprise me. I mean, my God, we had the water problem. We learned a lot about, you know, those people not getting

There was a time when people were stealing checks out of our mailbox.

All right, no, I'm saying there could be a number of really bona fide reasons.

I'm not saying that any of these was malicious or... Ladies and gentlemen, to cut to the quick, I'm not sensing any interest in proceeding in this regard, so I'd like to simply... Leave it at that. On the shelf again? No, it won't be on the shelf again. So five years over, we proceed administratively with the write-offs based on the application of law. Or if there's deceased leadership involved in any particular organization, we will follow that logic. I'm not, again, my interest, my only other, if I may, Commissioner, please. The only other thought, the question came up with respect to the amnesty consideration. If somebody would have, or an organization would have the ability to come back and do business with the city, the initial thinking was yes. So the answer would that be no. So one other potential consideration, if there is some sense of an amnesty, just to close out the balance in that regard, then they will no longer have the ability as an additional criteria to participate with the city of Derry Beach in this regard.

I think the ones within the last five years, it becomes a collectability. I think we should try to attempt to collect. If they truly can't collect, then they can come back and we can deal with the write-off or we can deal with something like that. But I don't know whether any of these entities actually have the ability. I mean, I'm sure the Palm Beach County Sports Commission, oh, that was 2017. I'm sure they would have had $177. But, you know, whether any one of these others from 2323, which is some of the 150 bucks or 1800 bucks or 539 bucks.

Seven thousand dollars. We don't know.

Some of them are high. Look, I mean, I said some of them are higher. So and then review them on a case by case basis as opposed to just a blanket.

So why don't we do this? Why don't everything older than five years? is going to be written off. And they will not have the ability to... We can't collect them anyway. We can't collect and they're not going to have the ability to come forward.

I think anyone we write off has to go on a no event list.

I mean, if the entity no longer exists or someone passed away...

Right, but some of those five-year write-offs are for entities that are still current, Lynn.

Excuse me, when we talk about someone passing away, my experience is that... You have a right on that policy shouldn't be in place retroactively.

Wait, what policy?

The policy of if we write it off, if it's older than five years, you'll never be able to do business with the city again.

What if they have to come before the city commission before they can submit an application and you'll consider it on a case-by-case basis? So if we write you off because it's uncollectible or for whatever reason it's written off, if they want to submit an application to the city for an event, they have to come before the city commission and seek permission before they can submit their application. That's fair.

That's fair. And that's a case-by-case now. Then we can wait. That's what I said. On a case-by-case basis, I think any one of these entities may have a good reason. I mean, maybe we're wrong.

And then if they're within the five years, we'll send it to the collections agency. If they can't collect it, we'll bring it back.

Or maybe try voicing them first, yeah.

We've done that already.

The five-year ones, I think, are a little bit under a new administration. So if it's within the five years, we'll send it to the collections agency. If they're unable to collect it, we'll bring it back to the city commission with a resolution asking to write it off, and we'll explain the reasons why. Same thing. They'll be on that list, and if they want to do an event, they have to come before the city commission. Okay, Nick and I Fair resolution.

Because I don't want us to be involved in every one of these items. I know it's a little special.

And we'll memorialize this so that everyone's clear.

I would just point out that when you talk about a deceased, normally that's an individual debt. that you don't burden the heirs. These are institutions with unlimited life. Just because a senior person died, it doesn't absolve the requirement that the institution...

I recognize some of the older ones. A lot of these entities were one person. They might have been. That's fine. Okay, do we have your direction? Can we move on? Do you have your direction? Okay, so we have consensus to do, we're writing off the rules for five years. If they want to come back, even if they've been written off, they have to come back to the commission to get, you know, to be put back into whatever it is. And meanwhile, all the other ones are going to be sending to try and affect collections, which we can deal with on a case-by-case basis as to whether or not they're collectible or not.

And it's the same thing. If they're in collections, then they're not, they're not.

And if they owe us money and they can't come back until they satisfy their debt.

Correct. The five years, right.

Mayor, find me real quick. Just to clarify, in the backup is a copy of the city's receivables policy. The policy simply states staff can write off, without any other approvals, up to $10. Beyond $10, it must be the commission that approves it.

I'll give you the $10. You want to write off? Do not bother me for the half an hour.

I just wanted to clarify that point so you're aware of it. Okay.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you. We'll proceed with the direction having been outlined. Appreciate everybody. Finance, Office of the City Manager, Office of the City Attorney. We take it from there. So thank you. Thank you, ma'am. Thank you very much. Okay.

Item 7C, Review of the Fire Rescue Department Educational Incentives. And this will be Elena Georgiev. Or Elena.

Elena. All right. Good evening, Mayor, Commissioners. Elena Georgiev. city auditor. The report before you presents the results of the review of educational incentive compensation payments to fire department command staff. This review was initiated at the request of the city manager to determine why certain members of fire command staff were receiving these payments and what supported their continuation. The review examined records related to the five current members of fire command staff. The records showed that three of the five employees did in fact receive these payments and two did not. Although the three employees had different compensation histories, the common issue was that those payments continued after those employees were promoted into command positions not covered by the supervisory collective bargaining agreement. So the review identified the weakness in how city educational incentive payments were administered when employees changed positions. Wait, do we have to call Ms. Burns back? Excuse me.

She's already been back and left.

Although the supervisory agreements establish eligibility criteria for covered employees, the process did not consistently ensure that eligibility was reassessed and documented when an employee is promoted into a position not covered by the supervisory collective bargaining agreement. There are several departments that touch this process, and management has been made aware of the issue. And they're already taking proactive measures to implement changes. And internal audit will evaluate the corrective actions as part of the future follow-up process. No commission action is requested at this time.

Thank you very much. To the commission. Commissioner Markert? Commissioner Malik.

Thank you very much for your presentation. I heard it earlier, but thank you very much.

Commissioner Casale? Sure. So you said it only affected a small group of people, but are we clear that that's the case across the board? Or we're not sure? Because there was that talk about incentives, and were they pensionable or were they not pensionable? And are we...

clear on that or are you continuing to work on that to figure out if we're this particular review focused on a small group of employees the current command staff right um trying to determine well reviewing the current documents was not sufficient to ascertain the history and how these payments came to be. So as part of my process, I went back a certain number of years, and I know that there were others who received these benefits. But again, this review focused particularly on current command staff.

This is the thing that worries me, and I want to thank you, Mr. Martin, because I know you participate in this as well. When I, 2021, right, or around the time that you came on board, I had asked my colleagues for a consensus to review the payroll process for two departments, the fire and the police. not because there was a question of is there a problem that someone's doing something, but because of things like this, slip-ups where you're attributing things to pension and there's a financial component, a loss to the taxpayers, that shouldn't be there. And then we found out about the Highland Beach. You know, I wished that we had... I had gotten a consensus, and we had done a thorough review of that department at the time. Unfortunately, I didn't. But here we are today. I appreciate you, Mr. Martin, for looking. And I think we just have to be really diligent when we're involved in these contracts that are extensive with so many components that we're properly safeguarding the residents and that we are not paying for things we don't need to be. Because once you create that, all over a long period of time. Now we can't get that money back. We don't know actually how many people over years and years and years. And now the question going forward is people are accustomed to that benefit and they want it. So now that's another item we'll be negotiating in the future. But thank you for the report. I appreciate it. Thank you, Mr. Moore. And thank you, Chief Martin, for your diligence. Thank you.

That's great. Thank you very much. Can we take a five? I've been asked if we can take a five. I hate to ask people who are all yawning in the front seat already. Can we take a five-minute break? So it's 8.05. We're going to recommence at 8.10. Good evening. We are restarting at 8.12, having stopped at 8.05. So here we go. Next item on the agenda is the 7E. Is it 7D? 7 who?

Diaz and Dogg.

7 Diaz and Dogg. Okay. Resolution 117-26, if the city attorney could kindly read the resolution into the record.

A resolution of the City Commission of the City of Delray Beach, Florida, approving a conditional use to allow outdoor dining at night associated with restaurants within the five existing historic structures along South Swinton Avenue, Block 61 for the project known as Sunny Village, as more particularly described herein, pursuant to land development regulations of the Code of Ordinances and the comprehensive plan of the City of Delray Beach,

providing an effective date and for other purposes this is a quasi judicial hearing any people anyone anyone here wish you to speak on this item if you could please rise and be sworn to by the clerk In fact, I should. In fact, hold on one second. Hold on, because we have several quasar judicials. I'm going to get you all sworn in at the same time. 7D, 7E, which is the two lots at 14 George Bush, 7F, which is 46 Marine Way. Oh, no, that's not. Excuse me. Oh, yeah, it is. And...

7G. 7G. Conditional use with waivers.

And that's it. So anyone who wants to speak on those four items, please stand and get sworn by the clerk.

By the authority vested in me, as a notary of the state of Florida, do you swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? I do. I do. Great.

Thank you all very much. We are ready to... Let me just explain how the quasar judicial works. The hearing will be conducted in accordance with the quasar judicial rules. The applicant and the city shall be allowed 15 minutes each to present their case. The public shall be allowed to speak for three minutes each or a maximum of six minutes if the person represents an organization or a group of people who are present but agree not to speak. The city commission and staff and the applicant may be allowed to cross-examine a witness. The city or the applicant will be allowed to offer rebuttal testimony. The decision to approve or deny an application may not be legally made upon personal views as to whether a project is a good project or not, nor may a decision be based on the numbers of citizens who support or oppose a particular project. The law requires that all decisions must be made on the basis of whether the project meets the requirements of law, the comprehensive plan, and the land development regulations. If the city could please enter the project file into the record.

I'm Thea Janiotis, Development Services Director for the record, and I'm entering file PZ492-2026.

Thank you very much. Disclosure of ex parte communications to the Commission. We're on item 7D.

None for me. Brief conversation with staff.

None for me. None.

None.

Great. Okay. Now the presentation of the case to the applicant.

Good evening. Mike Covelli, 1209 South Swinton, 33444. tonight you have an item before you for a conditional use this is within the Sunday Village project for evening dining this is in the Oshad district and in the Oshad district if you want to have dining after after hours you have to have a conditional use and our intent is to go from dusk to midnight This is the area that the conditional use would be covering as for the historical homes that were restored. This is a copy out of the certified plan. You see the areas in yellow that were part of the approval of the site plan. And during the reconstruction, those yellow areas are decks, porches, and patios that were built as part of the construction so we're not adding anything more to it also understand that outdoor dining is allowed in these areas during the daytime hours we're only asking to get this will use to extend that to midnight I'm going to show you some images of what these areas look like starting with building a on the left and going to the south to G Here's building A. We're going to basically be using the front porch and the back porches for the outdoor dining. This is building C, which is using the northern side of the building and it wraps a little around to the rear of the building. Building E is Cathcart House. There is a large patio in the front, a patio in the rear off of the pedestrian paseo, and some of the porches will be used for outdoor dining on this building. And then buildings B and F were combined with a breezeway and this is on a raised deck that is in the front, goes through the breezeway to a small deck in the back as you can see in the lower right hand image. And then finally, at the very south end, there's a patio in the front of Building G and a small raised deck in the rear. So these are the areas that would be utilized for the evening dining with a restriction until midnight. When looking at conditional use, there are some findings that need to be made. The first one is section 3.1.1, and for the sake of expediency, I'm not going to go through all these. There's four items. One is the land use map, the other is concurrency, the other is consistency with the comp plan, and the other is compliance with LDRs. And I'm not going to go through these because through the site plan process, all of these were vetted and they were found to be in compliance. Then the other section for conditional use is section 2.4.11, which basically has two criteria. One is that the approval of the conditional use won't detrimentally have an effect on the stability of the neighborhood. I think quite the contrary. Everyone has seen the evolution of the project. And bringing some night dining into the area will actually... bring more people in it will create natural surveillance it also is an economic boost so it will definitely help the stability of the neighborhood and then it won't hinder development or redevelopment nearby area and i think this is all internal the projects you're not going to have any hindrance if anything it will it will be a catalyst for other redevelopment in the area so Positive findings can be made for all of these items, and I would appreciate it if you would give us an approval. If you have any questions, I'm happy to answer. Great. Thank you very much.

Great. I don't have a lot to add, but I am going to just give you a little bit more. I think you've gotten a good overview of the application. The reason that outdoor dining at night is a conditional use is because OSHAD is a mix of homes and Also, I'm not sure where my presentation is Thank you So you've gotten a good overview of where it is and the houses and if you haven't seen the renovations You know, this is the part of Sunday Village I think that everyone can universally be proud of and it's taken a lot of work. So on both staff and thankfully pubs with mike's help and uh gensler i believe was the architect um outdoor dining at night is conditional um the there is nothing changing in terms of needing more parking because they are already parked for daytime use the issue is that ultimately you have to make sure that the that that activity into the evening up until midnight is not going to bother nearby residents. So I just wanted to give you a slide that shows that sort of the closest residents to be open later than midnight. They are within 250 feet of COTA, but it depends on if they're residentially. So I think there are... So any later than midnight it would come back to you. So this approval is to allow this Conditional uses in the end and I think we don't expect it to be a problem But if there is an acoustical problem sound does move around as we know from some of our other outdoor Uses if there is a problem Conditional uses can be revoked or adjusted if there's an impact that can't be rectified so i think that you know approving this comes with that safeguard so this is the only thing i wanted to add to mr cavelli's analysis ultimately i agree that the catalyst of sunday village could help the properties that are on the east side of swinton perhaps move towards a similar renovation so We're here if you have any questions. Also, the process for this, it goes through HPB first, and they recommended the planning board, and the planning board makes a recommendation to this board, and both boards were unanimous in recommending approval of the request.

Great. Thank you very much. This is a public hearing. Any members of the public wishing to speak on this application, please come to the lectern, give your name and address, and you will have three minutes.

George Long, 46 North Swinton. I am the closest neighbor who has been to the meetings where they discussed the nighttime dining. It was at the Historic Preservation Board. And I'm all for it. What the hell? I mean, really. There's a commercial property across the street that rolls nice historic houses that have to stay there, whatever. And then behind it, you have two-story buildings, the office buildings. So you have a lot of blockage. You're not going to have a problem with it. And normally, having a little nighttime dining out there is a good thing, although it's going to be way past my bedtime. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Are there any other members of the public wishing to speak? Seeing none, public comment is closed. Is there any rebuttal from the applicant to the city or the city to the applicant? No. Any questions? No. OK. Well, seeing none, then it's to the commission. Commissioner Malika.

No comment. Very excited for this to open.

Commissioner Marker. Ready to vote. Commissioner? Ready to support. Oh, I was going to say Casale, see if you were paying attention. OK. Commissioner Casale.

I am also ready, but I'm going to take one moment and say happy birthday to Mr. Long. Mr. Long is so dedicated. He's here with us on his birthday.

Thank you very much.

How old Mr. Long? Wait.

I think this was a great reuse of this I mean we all I don't know most of you remember what these were like before it got in to get done and I mean it's been it's been a great such a positive development for that part of swimming in the same part of the city so I just think it's great so

Motion to approve resolution number 117-26. Oh, I thought you said.

Did you have something else you wanted to say? No. Just ready to go. So ready.

Do we have a second?

Do we have a second? Second. Would you please call the roll?

Deputy Vice Mayor Markert.

Yes.

Commissioner Malika. Yes. Commissioner Cassow.

Yes.

Vice Mayor Burns. Yes. Mayor Carney.

Yes. Motion passed.

Well done. Thank you very much. I look forward to, I'd like that one, the one called the Drinking Pig, and what was the other one called? I don't know, I don't know what they're going to be, but Taco Place, looking forward to the tacos? It's a barbecue place? It's a barbecue. Looking forward to it. Item 7F.

Resolution number 126-26, the resolution of the City Commission of the City of Delaware Beach, Florida, approving waivers to the minimum lot size requirement for two lots located at 14 George Bush Boulevard, as more particularly described herein, providing an effective date and for other purposes.

Okay, reminding everyone who's speaking on this, if you've not been sworn in, everyone been sworn in? Yes, okay. If you could please enter this project file into the record.

Okay, I would like to enter, I'm going to enter three files into the record. File number PZ00795-2026, and then HP293-2025 and HP298-2025. Thank you. Perfect. Thank you very much.

any ex parte communications none I actually did speak to one of the neighbors who was very in favor of it and they actually wrote us a letter which was I didn't realize it was the same one when they sent the letter and there are some stuff that I received on the server about this I think I did get an email about it yes

I think we got a paper document handed to us as well on the day. Great.

To the applicant.

Hi, I'm Kim Dwyer. I live at 109 Dixie Boulevard in the Delida Park Historic District. I've been a resident of Delray Beach for over 35 years. I didn't move here as a baby, but we'll pretend I did. My husband has lived here for over 40 years, just so everybody knows he's older than me because everyone thinks he's younger. Thank you for identifying yourself, sir. And we live, like I said, we live in the Del Lido Park Historic District. And we've lived there for over, well, for just about 20 years. I was on a small task force that was in front of the CRA back in 2010, a team of residents who spearheaded the Second Avenue beautification project. My husband and I have divided property before in Del Lido. It has had a really great effect on the community. We're very sensitive to what goes on there. It's our home. And we were actually asked to take on this project. We started this project over a year ago working with staff and with architects. And things got turned around a little bit as far as the process just recently. And staff has been great at hustling to get us on the right meetings at the right time. So I will say that we only took ownership of the property in June. And the only reason that's important is when you see in the comments about the overgrown trees and the overgrown this and that. We've only actually been the owners since June. So we're already addressing that with landscapers, et cetera. So that will be addressed. Okay, so what's in front of you tonight? This is for two waivers to allow a 5% reduction from 9,500 square feet for the lot size to 9,000. The width that's required for R1AA is 75. That will be met. The depth is 100. Ours is 120. And all other setbacks with our designs are going to be met. There are no other setbacks or variances asked for or waivers, just this one. We are not requesting to go back to the three original 50-foot lots. We tried that once back in 2006, and it didn't work very well when we got to commission. 75 by 100 or more. And with your approval tonight, the designs are ready and will return to HPB. You will not see them tonight. We will not be talking about COAs or the current structure, just the division of the property. So then we'll go back to HPB for all the appropriate votes, and they'll have their time with that. So we did go to HPB two weeks ago. Again, thank you for staff for hustling this through. It was unanimously voted yes by all of the members of the HPB board that night, and they found the top four things. And then now tonight it's necessary. We're asking you to find it necessary and appropriate to create this nonconformity. So I'm going to go back in history for just a second. Staff may go back a little bit more than me. This is Delighta Park. It was originally laid out in 50 and 60 foot lots for the most part. I want to point out the top. let's talk to use this little thing, the top little square up here, those are the three lots that we're talking about, which are unified and are now one parcel. And I consider this the northeast section. All of these lots were platted the same, 50 foot north and south, 60 feet west and east. This section down here on Dixie Boulevard, which is where we live, is called Staff will refer to it as the estate section, much deeper lots. Same width, but they just are much deeper. So when this was platted, we didn't have the current zoning, which is R1AA in this part of the neighborhood. There is other plating, other zoning in other parts of the neighborhood where they can actually have smaller lots. But in this part, it's R1AA. And so it's when you take two lots, three lots and you like i said the way we're dividing it it's impossible to get to the 9500 with the way that just to draw a line down the middle so i'll take you through that this is the original as it was platted there is a structure on it now we'll address that at hpb it sits all the way at the back of the property four feet from the back if you drove by you'll know this property it sits so far back from the road the front door which is right down here is actually 85 feet from the property line. The garage, which is up here, sits 65 feet from the property line. This was something that there were at least seven people that spoke from. And I have some of their comments because I took them off the recording. But there were seven people who spoke. And that's the biggest thing they talked about is it's just missing. It's just empty. It's vacant. And so we'll talk about that. But what's most appropriate right now is the next slide, which I think a picture It's worth a thousand words. So this is the current streetscape. Up at the top, what's unique about George Bush you may not have known is that the north section of George Bush up here is not historic. Those are not kept to the historic guidelines, just R1AA. This is the side of the street we're talking about. This big blue block is the parcel that we're talking about. And now I'm going to take you through. These are the two blocks that I mentioned are so similar to each other. And if you'll notice, the 50-foot lots are denoted by the yellow lines. Those are the traditional lots. Some have been combined to make a 100-foot lot. So it's exactly the same trash can you're taking out for this block. And there's just... These, again, took these directly. They were recorded from the quotes. These are all of the neighbors that came out to speak, including our own George Long, in favor of this dividing of these two lots. And one of those neighbors is also here tonight. Scott, who doesn't want to speak again, raised his hand, but he supports the division and has taken the time to come. The other neighbors sent letters, et cetera. And you also got letters from neighbors on Dixie Boulevard who know what we've done in the past.

that's it thank you all right thank you very much to the city um sorry i hit it comma's gonna kill me okay okay so um i do want to be clear because there was a typo on the agenda cover memo you are being asked to approve two lots that are 9 000 square feet where the current requirement is 9 500 square feet so this is the lot in question i think you got a pretty good overview of the blocks you can see there's a pretty wide variety of blocks and this is one of the remaining estate lots in the area We're on a little bit of a chicken-and-egg issue because to subdivide the lots as requested the existing house is Going to be in the middle So at the same time you're going to bring in two houses spend a lot of time and money and effort Designing the two infill houses and you don't know whether you can split the lots and to know where staff should be looking at the setbacks and so Ultimately, we wanted to just start with, is the commission going to find it necessary and appropriate to split the property into lots that are this size? If that was off the table, then the demolition and other things would be, and certainly two infill houses would not be what we would be discussing. So we're trying to figure out how to help them move forward with some level of confidence with the two applications that they want to make. So the original plot was divided into 50 foot wide lots. Most people bought a couple, maybe two, maybe three. Some people didn't buy it and worked off of one. The difference is that the only zoning district that you can revert back to that original 50 foot wide flat is R1A, not R1AA, not R1AAA, none of the other ones. We have a regulation that says that any lot that's created after October 1, 1990, has to comply with the minimum lot area, which is why you're seeing waivers and you're being asked to make a decision whether you think it is necessary and appropriate to subdivide this lot in this request. The surrounding areas, like I said, they are a mix. There are two that exceed the minimum. There are some that are only 50 feet wide and 6,000 square feet that are well below. So the neighborhood is a mix. It's characterized by a mix. The mix of lot sizes is representative of the historic pattern. The waivers don't create a condition that is contrary to that that are requested. However, it does require demolition of the existing historic building. That will come to you as part of the COA applications for the new lots. At the very least, you will see them on the appealable report. And then from there, you would have purview over the Historic Preservation Board's decision regarding the demolition and any new construction. So again, there are several standards. We have a staff report that is very thorough to look to regarding massing and scale and all of those things. Generally, we don't recommend tearing down a contributing structure to do something else but again the demolition itself will be reviewed for that structure and its integrity and its changes and its condition by the board as part of the the other applications We have a performance measure not to reduce the number of contributing structures. And ultimately, the findings you need to make are the standard waiver findings that you're not going to adversely affect the neighbor, that it's not a special privilege, and then ultimately that dividing the lots is necessary and appropriate. In this situation, you're creating a nonconformity. There are only 9,000 instead of 9,500, and if it's appropriate in this area. On August 5th, the Historic Preservation Board recommended approval unanimously. We're here if you have any questions.

Thank you very much. This is a public hearing. Any members of the public wishing to address the commission on this application, please come to the lectern, give your name and address for the record, and you will each have three minutes.

twice in one night it's um there should be no question about this but just in case I'd like to say you should prove this. There's no question about it. All you have to do is stand there, look at that, and you'll see a big lot, 150 feet. And you can also think in terms of 75-foot lots, and it makes sense. But I also understand there are some historic preservation things that you look at. Like at one time, there was big lots there and little houses and stuff like that. This is a go, and I just want to verify that just in case. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Are there any other members of the public wishing to address the commission? Seeing none, public comment is closed. Is there any cross-examination from the city to the applicant or the applicant to the city? Any questions? No? Does anyone moving there? No? Okay, that's fine. Then to the commission. Commissioner Burns.

I don't have any questions. I looked over the information and it was adequately presented. I'm ready to support it.

Commissioner Casale.

Me too.

Commissioner Markert. Ready to vote. Commissioner Malika.

I'm good. I think the applicant should, like, represent all builders because you presented so beautifully. So thank you.

I'll make a motion to approve resolution number 126-26.

I'll second. For the record, I approve it, too, before I make my comments.

I'm sorry. I'm trying to move this along.

Could the clerk please call the roll?

Commissioner Mulligan? Yes. Commissioner Cassell? Yes. Vice Mayor Burns? Yes. Mayor Carney? Yes. Deputy Vice Mayor Markert?

Yes. Motion passed. Great. Well done. That position he's talking about is not a paid position. I just want to warn you ahead of time. That's right.

Okay, thank you very much, okay item 7 G if the clerk of the city attorney could read resolution number 127-26 a resolution of the City Commission of the city of Darby Beach, Florida It's it's form always renumbered. I apologize. I apologize. Yes. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

It was it was renumbered that's approving a certificate of appropriateness pursuant to section 2 4 12 a 5 of the land development regulations LDR and approving a demolition pursuant to LDR Section 451F6, approving a vertical relocation pursuant to LDR Section 451E6B1, approving variances to Section 434K to reduce the front and side interior setbacks for the structure, and approving waivers to the visual compatibility standards in LDR Sections 451E781 and 451E7M6 for the property located at 46 Marine Way, as more particularly described herein, providing an effective date and for other purposes.

Right. I'm reminding everyone this is a quasi-judicial hearing. If you intend to speak on this, is there anyone who speaks on this who has not been sworn in by the clerk? Okay. Oh, you wish to speak? Okay. Please be sworn in by the clerk.

By the authority vested in me, as a member of the state of Florida, do you swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Thank you very much. Any ex parte communications?

No, none for me.

Yes, I spoke to the applicant. I spoke to staff. I mean, across the board from the beginning of this, I've spoken to a lot of residents.

This is one we've had before us before. So yeah, not this time, but I've spoken to someone and referenced this before.

Similar to Angela, and I do have some stuff, letters that came in on the server.

I spoke to the applicant and visitor the properties some time ago and spoke to Kristen Finn and And Jim Chard. I think we all visited the property together.

I have not spoken to anybody on this particular item since the last time we had this particular item, in which there were numerous calls, except I do think there are some items on the server. So with that disclosure, if the applicant ready to present the case. I am.

Would you like me to enter the file into the record? Oh, yes.

Would you please enter the file into the record?

Anthea Genotis, Development Services Director. And I'd like to enter file 544-2026 into the record.

Thank you very much. To the applicant.

My name is Dan Edwards. I'm the owner of the property. I'm here substituting for my daughter who is home pregnant this evening. So with my second grandchild. So I moved to Delray Beach in 2003. My kids went to St. Vincent School. My son David who's here, my daughter Kay. So I've been a resident for about 23 years. Preservation and progress do not have to be at odds, as we saw the beautiful project of Sunday Village. Responsible change allows us to protect the character of historic homes while making thoughtful updates to ensure continued life longevity with 2026 living expectations. And that's the subject of this. I'm looking for universal or unilateral approval by all of you tonight. I'd like everybody in agreement on this project because it's the right thing to do. This is the view of what I feel Marineway could look like in the next several years. Everybody to the north of me and the south of me has the rights to lift their homes with FEMA, which is currently 8 plus 1, which is 9. So this actual picture here, which is beautiful, by the way, is what could be on Marine Way versus the dilapidated homes that are there now. I happen to be the one direct center. To the left of me, unfortunately, through the process, AJ and the owner through Roger Culp is going through a complete demolition. And equally to the... home south of that. So of these three, or five homes, two are in for demo process. I am choosing preservation over demolition. And I have for three years that I've owned a home now. And I've chose preservation. If we go to the next This was original submittal back March 5th of 2025 to the HPB on the top. With their input, we went to the lower level, and we were approved by the HPB back in 2025. Since then, it came here to commission, and it was denied, and commission had several valid concerns. The most crucial of that was the third story, which we've totally removed. There is no third story now. The second of that was the front balcony, which we've removed. The third was the side setbacks, which we've removed. The fourth was the pool being elevated. Our representative of our neighbor's grandson is here tonight, and Jeannie is our neighbor to the north. We've got all of the neighbors in favor of the new plan. which I'll show you, which is this. It's a two-story. That's the historic home that you're looking at right there. The raising of it, with staff's help and recommendations, and Michelle, thank you for your time, that is a carport now to get in behind to the garage to get the cars off the street, which was a concern when the city goes to do their So now we have a carport that comes under, we meet FEMA requirements, you're seeing 90% of the existing structure from the front, and then as we walk through, this is now compatible with 2026, and I'm the developer, and I've got well over three million invested and I'll have well over seven million in the project when it's done to bring it to market. It's a very small kitchen in the back, as you can see. It's a five-person living room. It's an eight-person dining table, if you can fit that. I mean, that would be small eight people, but it's really a six-person table, but let's say it's eight. And that's the first floor. With the existing home, and in between the two homes, with staff's help, is what's called a hyphen. So if somebody should want to tear down the addition that I put on in the back someday, if they did you can leave the existing structure the 1928 home up front It would be remodeled and lifted to meet FEMA requirements, but if someone chose to tear down that back addition, they could, and you'd have complete separation without hyphen. Michelle, thank you for that. That was part of Michelle's architectural design. If we go to the second floor, it's a three bedroom on the second floor. Primary bedroom is overlooking the lower pool, Julia, which I showed you. We're also not looking for a pool of variance anymore. We've shortened it up and made it smaller. It's three bedrooms at this level with a little area, I don't know how to, well, I don't know how to use this stuff, it's my daughter's department, but it's a three bedroom. And this is the final look of what I'd like. If we go into standards, whoops, that was, thank you, and I'm gonna, okay, these are the standards. We meet one, two, three, five, nine, and 10. Four, six, seven, and eight are not applicable to our project. We're not asking for any variances. Nine becomes the crucial one, and that's where the decision is, is to massing. If you're staying at this project, I cannot invest the money on 1,200 square feet to raise this and raise the back building. And you guys are gonna see a picture from staff. You're gonna see colors blue and you're gonna see colors red. You're gonna see colors red that are the new additions, but you need to understand, I have the right at about 75% of those to do them anyway under FEMA. So if I wanted to take the two existing structures on the property and raise them, all the colors that are gonna be in red, and you could ask staff, would really be blue. I have the rights to make them blue. But when you look at the picture, you're going to say, wow, there's a ton of red. Yeah, there is, because I'm raising it under FEMA requirements, both the front building and the back building, if I wanted to. My goal has always been preservation, not demolition. I've chosen not to join my neighbors to the south with demolition. I could have. I could have proposed that like it's been proposed on other projects this evening, that there's going to be demolitions involved, but I'm not. I'm spending a lot of extra money to preserve the structure that's there, just like I walk every day by the Sunday House to the homes that somebody made the correct decision to save those homes. They moved them. They moved them back. They're not in the front visibility anymore. But they did the right thing. And I don't know if that was you, this commission, former commissioner HPB, but whoever it was should be applauded for making a difficult decision and doing the right thing. So that's what I would like. There's the things that we meet. Also, I can go up 35 feet if we wanted to in that district. We didn't. We chose to go to 24 feet. Not only did I remove the third floor completely, With staff's help, I also lowered the two floors inside by a foot each to keep this under 25 feet. I'm at 24 feet total top. When I could go, if it went through a demo in my neighbors to the south, they can go 35 feet in this district. And legally pursue that. That's the codes. And I'm not. I'm requesting 24 feet. I'm requesting a two-story. I'm requesting a much smaller home than I started out three years ago. I'm trying to get the access and the cars off the street. In investing the amount of money I'm investing, I still have to... worry about the flooding on the street, and the tides, and for any of those that have been in Delray, and again, I've been 23 years, some of you guys have been longer than that, it's horrible. And if you see the pictures, and Judy, thank you for seeing the house, and Julie, thank you. This home, with nothing done, will just be rot, and we have water damage, we have termite damage, But I'm going to fix all that. So this is the hyphen. It's in between the two properties. Bring in the car into the back garage. And there's the visually competitive standards. And oh, I have to back up. Sorry. Oh, there. And that's what I believe, hopefully, this is what I believe that Marine Village will look like when you hop on the Atlantic Lady in four years from today, which is beautiful, versus what you're looking at there now, which is terrible. So I would like a 100% yes vote from everybody up here this evening.

And did you miss the blue and red slide? Say it again? Did I miss the blue and red slide?

Oh, you're going to see that from staff. I didn't put it in mine, but you're going to see it, and then we can explain it. I didn't have that. Sorry, I was late. My daughter called me and said, Dad, can you fill in? I said, I'll zip right over. Thank you. Thank you very much.

You completed your presentation. That's my presentation. Okay, fine. To the city, just making sure.

Okay, so there actually are quite a number of actions that this application requires, so I'm going to just run through them so you're clear on what you're voting on. This is a certificate of appropriateness. It includes a demolition, which has its own findings. You have a very thorough staff report. I hope you did your homework. We're going to go quickly. A relocation, which is to elevate the existing house in its current location and construct a carport under it. And then there are two variances and waivers. So this is the property. I think you're all familiar with it. So let's Here's, again, what we're doing. The demolition is a rear-contributing accessory structure, vertical relocation, two waivers, which are also related to the standard that was referenced, that then go into 451, our visual compatibility standards, specifically secondary and subordinate and the building height plane calculations, and then two variances, one to the front setback and one to the side, and I'll show you those really quickly. This is the property and kind of what it looks like today in the street with what it looks like today. So behind this hedge is this hardscape and this patio right here. This is the house. Just a couple quick images. This is the accessory structure that is proposed for demolition, just so you have an idea on that one. And this is the current site plan. So if it's in blue, it's existing, except for the pool. The pool is in a cyan, let's say. So the proposal is to remove the hardscape here. and remove the accessory structure this is the house in its current location it's proposed to stay there but go up and have a new carport constructed under it so it will elevate this structure goes away and then the new addition comes in here and a new pool beside the structure and in front of the addition. There are no waivers requested to the pool. If you were watching this progress through the board, that was no longer needed. So very quickly, here's the house. The house is required to elevate to meet flood requirements, but also to save the house. It needs to go up. And while I think some of you might be surprised about the carport entry in the front, the elevation that's required is so significant that there is an opportunity to use that space to have parking off the street. And the design includes an arched entryway and those things. We can go over that if you have any questions. So again, the existing house is in blue. It goes up. And then the addition in the back is, again, on that same sort of plenum space that is not considered habitable space just to pick it up. But then it is also elevated a little bit more. And then what's under the original house and the addition So I'm trying to find out if I had a better picture of that. You have a full analysis of the Secretary of the Interior Standards and the staff report. We will focus just mainly on nine, again, which is the one that was referenced by the applicant, and that specifically that the new work is differentiated, which the hyphen, we agree, does achieve that. The issue, I think, to pay the most attention to is whether it is compatible in massing size and scale. There's concern about the proposed size of the rear addition. Even though it is properly located behind the main house and to the side of it, it is not coming forward. When you are looking at demolition, because you are looking at demolition, these are your findings. whether or not the structure is of such interest or quality, if it's the last one of its kind, those types of things. This is a very small structure. It's less than 300 square feet. We think it was constructed prior to 1949 based on Sanborn maps. However, it's not considered one of the last remaining types of its kind. It's located in the rear. It's not visible from the street. So it will not have a substantial impact if it's removed. For relocation, because lifting the original structure up is considered a relocation, there are findings that are analyzed for you as well in your staff report. specifically if the proposed relocation is the only practicable means of saving the structure is certainly an issue as the flooding that is ongoing is affecting the integrity of the structure so um the contributing structure has to shift up um the property is required to go at least six and a half feet up between fema and the florida building code our code encourages people in flood zones to add another foot so you need you freeboard anything above that is that is the new zero for where we now measure building height basically you can't build a habitable space lower under current flood loss so you're going to have to start here So the issue then is that why lose the opportunity of actually having parking on what is otherwise a very small lot. So there's no issue with that. I believe that the base goes up a little bit higher underneath the addition. I don't know why that extra elevation needed to happen. But it's very close. I mean, you'd be dickering over a foot and a half, two feet. So it's not a lot. But we are dealing, again, with secondary subordinates. So that comes into play. There are a number of visual compatibility studies that all historic properties are held to, so we're going to pay attention to the two that are specifically requesting waivers now. Okay, so again, this is the structure it needs to be elevated. I think it is fair to say Mr. Edwards presented every property at some point on this site is going to have to elevate So our streets at streetscape does not show that but I think it's a valid point that that applicant has made The issue is whether is basically that the addition is significantly larger and wider than the historic house and whether or not all of this could somehow be achieved while maintaining the main house as the focal point um so um for the waivers that you have to look at i'm missing slides but that's okay um it's the usual standards that you have whether it's going to adversely affect if it's a special privilege etc So those are the findings you need to do for these. This is building high plane. So if you're not familiar with the historic regulations, there are several things that are mathematical that apply. Building high plane basically strikes a line that says, this is a no-build zone. This is where it's OK to build. So it's a technique of keeping the height and the scale of new projects in keeping with the street. In this case, there is no way for Mr. Edwards to lift this house up without going into the building height plane. It cannot be avoided. However, I think you should evaluate whether or not the addition built behind the house needs to come forward into the building height plane. We understand the main house the back house. However, it is set back behind the house. It's further away from the street So this is what you need to look at for that. I Think I've said all that to keep that the second waiver is to secondary and subordinate Addition shall be secondary and subordinate to the massing of the historic building and shall not overwhelm the original building you have to make a determination that this Waiver is acceptable based on the findings. It is taller and wider. You've seen this before Variances there are two variances historic preservation board has the ability Typically to grant variances. You don't have to go to a separate path to be away the board views it all together However, there are different standards. So I'm just pointing out that it's necessary to maintain the historic character, that there's a special condition or circumstance, that a literal interpretation will alter the character, that it will not significantly diminish the character, and that it's ultimately necessary to accommodate adaptive reuse. The use is not an issue. They are keeping it as a single family home. So where the house is now is not within the 25 foot setback because they're picking it up and they are building a carport underneath it. The variance to maintain the building in the same position is required in the front and also on the side. The current house is only two feet, three inches from this side. I know this application stands on its own. I don't know where it went. I lost it. However, I do want to point out that The last time you saw this, the new structure was requesting the same variance as well. The new structure meets all of the required setbacks on the property. So these two variances that you are considering are only for the historic house and its elevation and the carport underneath it. Front setback's 25 feet. The existing setback is the same as what is proposed to maintain the building in its current location. And that's the same thing for the side, seven, six. It kind of varies. The world is not straight. So I'm going quickly as I can. So in summary, the application before you requests two setback variances for the original structure and the carport that will be constructed under it, demolition of a rear contributing accessory structure, approval of the relocation, because that comes with its own standards and requirements as well, and two waivers to visual compatibility standards, which I think are directly related to standard 9 at the Secretary of the Interior. That is it in a nutshell. You have a very thorough backup. And so I think we're just here to answer questions if you have any.

Great. Thank you very much. This is a public hearing. Any members of the public wishing to address the commission on this item, please come to the lectern. You will give your name and address for the record, and you will each have three minutes. Have all of you been sworn?

Yes? Yes.

Okay. Thank you.

My name is Julian Ray. I live in at 24 Marine Way. I'm the applicant's neighbor, zip code 33483. I asked the board, the commissioners here, to approve the project. I went to the Historic Preservation Board meeting. They discussed at length all the potential issues. The applicant has been working with the board order to address each and every one of the issues as far as the massing is concerned the board said that you know they didn't like how big it was it was sort of overtaking it but in my opinion if it's perfectly the architectural plans place the original building at the forefront of everything so that's what you see when you walk across the street you see the original historic building That extra addition is only 2,300 square feet. That's there so that way people can live in the house. It's not there to overwhelm the original historic building. And that's part of the problem with this whole lot is that it's such a small space. You kind of have to change things so that way a realistic living space can be created. And that's what the applicant has done here. He's gone before the Historic Preservation Board before. He's gotten approval. It's gotten denied by the commission. He's gone back to the Historic Preservation Board. And they didn't approve of it fully that last meeting two months ago. But despite that, you all should still approve of it. The applicant's been working with the commission, with the board, to satisfy all these regulations. I'm no expert in any of this building code stuff, but at the end of the day, people want to live in Delray. And the people who really want to live in Delray and want to make sure that historic preservation is maintained should be invited the commissioners the historic preservation board should work with these people like this applicant in order to make this happen and as somebody who lives on the street i just see how dilapidated the rest of the houses are you know there's a real issue with the seawall you know i asked earlier today about that you know i would like some sort of semblance of that because it will impact this applicant's construction you know the what he's asking for and what he needs to do And so really what it boils down to is let's not push him back to the drawing board. Let's not push this applicant to reopen Schrodinger's box and see a dead cat again. This needs to be done. Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Good evening, commissioners, councilors, city managers, staff. I'm Jim Charg. I actually live about four blocks away from this street. And I love to take visitors to Delray, to this street, because it really represents, I think, in many, many ways, what the history of Delray is about. And I think if what Mr. Edwards does, and hopefully followed by the other people on that street, we'll have another site that's very much like Bankers Row in a way, except with a better view. The 800-pound gorilla is this issue of scale and massing, and I want to make an argument that that is necessary economically. Now, I know my friends in the historic preservation area do not totally agree with me on this, but I'm going to make the point anyway. This building is somewhere in the neighborhood of 900 or 1,000 square feet. They are adding an additional 1,300 square feet. So in the grand scheme of things in historic preservation, this is a fairly small addition. But because the original house is so small, it gets into this question of secondary and subordinate. And one of the ways I see this is there's an economic element to it. And Mr. Edwards is a great guy, but he is not a philanthropist. He's not going to make it a museum. He wants it to be a viable economic proposition. And if we take a look at the comprehensive plan, and I'll be glad to circulate these to you, the historic preservation element will reinforce the value of cultural, economic, and environmental resources. And goal HPE1, preserve, protect, enhance, and support says, secure for future generations the opportunity to share in the unique heritage of Delray Beach and promote preservation through the purposeful identification, protection, and continued use of. It's not a museum. It's going to be used as a home. And if you go to the gold standard of historic preservation, which is the Secretary of Interior's guidelines. It says, a property significance through the preservation of historic materials and features, which is what this is doing. And it says, in a reasonable manner, taking into consideration economic and technical feasibility. This building has to do both of those because of the flooding. Lastly, because I'm running out of time, the determination that a project meets the standards is based on a cumulative effect, not just one thing, but all of the factors taken into account in order to make this a viable proposition. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much.

Good evening, commissioners, staff, Greg Snyder, 3324 Lakeview Drive, Delray. I was going to say, I think you've all seen the email that I sent. But listen to the commission. I'm not sure anybody's looked at it. But I did send an email against this. And I think it's important enough that I stand up as well and reinforce my position that I just think this application is not appropriate. It's been around, this is about the sixth attempt, modified and modified, but the changes are not sufficient to make this acceptable. It does not meet the Secretary of Interior standard number nine to be compatible with massing, size, and scale. It's too large and it's too visible. Mr. Edwards has some really nice pictures taken from the right angle and proposed streetscapes that make it look nice. If you look at the red and blue pictures, the addition stands out. It's the visual focus. It dominates the historic house. In fact, to me, it doesn't look like an addition. It looks like a large building with a much smaller historic house put on the front of it. So not only is it wrong as a structure on its own, but it's incompatible with the Marineway streetscape. And again, Mr. Edwards has a really nice conjecture of what the Marineway streetscape might look like in the future. That's not what it looks like. And this is not compatible with the Marineway. In my opinion, you must agree with the Historic Preservation Board and deny this application.

Thank you very much.

my name is Queen and I just want to address for the record home my name is Queen I'm sorry your name and address for the record my name is Queen my zip code is three three no address we need an address to a public hearing we need a 918 Southwest 11th here thank you Delray I just wanted to say with this particular project why I'm in support of it as I appreciate him using the extensive as we can say I like the fact that he's harping on historical Historical in the city of Delray to me actually means a lot. And when I hear him stress more so on historical and him coming back and forth trying to get you guys to understand what it is that he's trying to do or he's trying to make sure that the historical side of it stays so that we can see different things. Because historical can be historical but still have a bit of modern added to it too. It doesn't have to be historical. And that means the wood is so old and tacky that you can't do anything to it. Well, that means that the pavement is so decomposed that you could barely put a car on it without having lawsuits. So I feel as though the fact that he is coming in and he's utilizing historical and he's doing everything that the city is asking for, I feel like that should be taken in consideration. And I feel like that because when I think about my graveyard, the historical of my graveyard makes me feel as though we have a lot that we need to consider when when there's work that needs to be done. The work that needs to be done doesn't have to always be the brick and mortar that we need to see from 1977, deuce, deuce. Or it's not the brick and mortar that we need to see from 2030. So him harping on historical And he's doing everything that needs to be done. I would like to know why would it be denied? I mean, he's coming back. What more is it that he need to do? What more is it that's need to be required? And if he's doing everything, why once he present everything that needs to be done, why is there always second guessing if he's doing what you're asking to do the first time? But you have to keep coming back and keep coming back. It seemed like it need to be a change of something. because it's too many times that we come and present things here, and there's always stagnation, either a dollar, or someone don't agree with it, but then we're going in circles. See, I'm not a going in circle person. I'm a Capricorn, and let's get it done. If we cannot get it done, then we need to either change the board, or we need to change the board. And that's it. So I'm in agreement.

Thank you very much.

George Long, 46 North Swinton. Interesting, most of my remarks have already been covered up here. I had a remark about the main problem is visual compatibility, massing, that anything's going to look too big when you have a 900 square foot house there. But let's take a look at this for a minute. The house is too low and it's too small. Something's got to happen. It's got to go up. It's got to get bigger. So I think the only thing that would concern me is the massing, but it doesn't concern me that much because when I look forward at the house, it looks pretty good. When I get a little bit over to the side, as one of the board members mentioned, well, it looks kind of big. It was highly weighted over to the right. The question is, why is that? That's because there's no damn room on the left to build a big house. There's nothing there. You have to build it over to the right and weigh it to that side. So that takes care of that. That's about all I have to say. There's an explanation. It looks big because the house is small. It looks like a lot there because everything's on the right. That's the only place you can put it unless you impose on the setback rules. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Are there any other members of the public wishing to address the commission on this application? Seeing none, public comment is closed. Is there any rebuttal testimony from the applicant to the city or the city to the applicant?

I just would like to correct some of the public comment or clarify the numbers. The house is currently 987 square feet. The addition is 2,333. I believe one of the comments said he was only adding 1,300, which results in an under amount of 3,321.

I have a rebuttal though for the gentleman that spoke who did you didn't take the time to walk a lot with me for those of you that have walked a lot with me and seen what I've invested there and the time and the changes I've made and thank you for speaking we've never met to eliminate a full story and to make this a livable home. And that was one of the things that Mr. Char talked about. This design, and Julie, you were kind enough to walk it this week, it's a four-bedroom home. I'm not building a 14-bedroom. It's a four-bedroom home that somebody that moves into Delray with a family probably requires. That's it. And it's not a huge home. It depends if you take the angle, as somebody said, the angle I'm taking from is the accurate angle. You're going to stand in front of the house and look at it. If you want to go, as you said, to the director, right? And you're never going to please everybody. That's life. I grew up in a small town, Cortland, New York, and my mom was on the Historical Society there. You can't please everybody. What you have to do is what you believe is the right thing to do. And I believe this is the right thing, and I believe the gentleman here with zero investment in the project is completely wrong. So that's where I stand. And I would like 100% unanimous approval.

Thank you very much. the speakers can also rebut right um no i don't believe that you're allowed to rebut no no we're allowed to rebut you but you cannot but us sorry sorry to say i'm sorry mr chart that's the we'll consider that the next organization but anyway so so to the to the commission who would like to go first commissioner casale

I spoke to Dan on the phone today, and I told him I'm struggling. And the city directed me to go look at another property on Nassau Street that shows you how you can have the subordinating secondary property not be such a visual component and as i said to you that's sort of my biggest problem and the thing is and here's where i'm vacillating because i do appreciate your desire to save this historic house and but then i say what what you're preparing is setting the standard for the next houses and we're never going to have it at the current that we're not going to have any more historic districts. The government has precluded us from being able to do it. So what we have, I feel we really need to protect. And I'm concerned because I don't know it's beautiful. I know you worked tirelessly. You've done this for years, and... But I concern myself with the domino effect.

But the home to the north is already bigger and already two stories directly north, this gentleman's. And the two homes to the south are both going to be demoed.

I know, and that concerns me.

And the house even further to the south, unfortunately, is a complete dump. So this is a way to preserve the structure. And, again, if you walk it, it's not a normal-sized home. It's a small home. It's a four-bedroom livable home that we're inviting people to move to Delray to be in a place that you want to live. And when you get on the Atlantic Lady and you drive down, it's an embarrassment. I'm sorry.

That was my fault because you're not used to being here and I started having an exchange.

I apologize.

Let's just let the others speak and hear what others have to say. Thank you.

You're welcome, Julie. Commissioner Malika.

I think it's a miracle what the department and you have done together. And I know there's been struggles and creativity like crazy to make this happen. I think it's beautiful. I think there's no way we can only preserve 987 square foot homes on expensive lots like that that is waterfront and I think what you've done is beautiful and I understand all of the variances that you need and all of the the waivers and I'm in favor of everything to make this project happen because this is is the way we have to preserve historic. We have to make it economically viable. And I know that Mr. Long said, well, sure, it all looks like it's all one side because there's nowhere else to put it. But I would be in favor of this. I think it's beautiful. And I think you guys have struck an amazing compromise and chord. So thank you all.