Board of Zoning Appeals - Regular Meeting

He's good. Hello. Um, welcome to the Delaware Muny Metropolitan Board of Zoning Appeals December regular monthly meeting. We're going to start with the pledge of

allegiance to the flag of the United States of America to the standice for all. All right, going into roll call. Mr. Billington here. Miss Brandon here. Miss Fridge

here. Mr. Ivy, Miss Kaiser here, Miss Knap

Miss Matthew. Okay, so we have five board members present. So we do have a quorum. Cool. All right. To begin, we would like to start with the chair would entertain a motion to approve the monthly minutes. We have before us September, October, and November. We can take them individually or separately um at the discretion of the board. I move that we approve the September, October, and November minutes collectively. I second. All right.

Mr. Billington. Yes. Miss Brandon. Yes. Miss uh Miss Kaiser. Yes, Miss Nap. Yes, Miss Fritz. Abstain.

Okay, so we do have four yeses. So that is official action of the board of approval of the September, October, and November 2025 meeting minutes. Okay. Um before we begin tonight, I do want to just go over a few ground rules and just kind of give an overview of how we will hear the cases. So, we will begin um we have one case that's a continuation from last month's meeting and then we'll go into the new business. So, we'll start by reading the case. Then the applicant will or whoever's representing them will be able to come to the podium um and explain their case. We will then invite anybody that would like to speak in favor of the case to come up and speak. And then after everybody that wants to speak in favor of it has concluded, we'll move to anyone in opposition. Um given our case load tonight, we'll also have a three minute time limit per person at the podium. So um we'll be monitoring that as well. Um with that said, we'll start with old business. BCA 56-25, Jurisdiction Board of Zoning Appeals, being a continuation of a public hearing on the matter of an application filed by Andrew Collins, 6320 North County Road, 600 West, Gaston, Indiana, requesting variances from the terms of the Delaware County Comprehensive Zoning Ordinance to allow increased height for a new accessory structure and to allow the accessory structure total square footage to be greater than that of the dwelling. All four new pole barn on in a resident zone on premises located at 6320 North County Road 600 West Harrison Township, Delaware County, Indiana, as more accurately described in the application.

Could the applicant please come to the podium and explain what they're asking for? [snorts] Okay. Is up. Not I don't see them here. Okay. Um Ellen, could you give us an overview of what our options are if we don't have the applicant present?

Um so you have a couple of different options. Um given that this case was previously heard at last month's meeting, um the board could um vote to continue the hearing until next month. The board could vote to move it to the end of the agenda to give Mr. Collins additional time to show up. for the board given that they have already heard this case on the merits once. The board could could vote on this case on the merits. Okay. Discussion amongst the board.

I'm going to move that we move it move that ace to the end of the agenda to give him time to get here and then go from there. Okay. I would second that. Okay. Okay. Mr. Billington, yes. Miss Brandon, yes. Miss Kaiser, yes. Miss Knap, yes.

Miss Frri, yes. Okay. Three or that is five yeses. So, that is approval to move this to the end of the agenda and um rehear the case at that time. Okay. All right. So, on to new business. Um, the board will now hear BZA 63-25. Jurisdiction Board of Zoning Appeals being a public hearing on the matter of an application filed by Ditch Lily Designs LLC and Rebecca Hannah P. Box 549, Muny, Indiana, requesting a variance of use and variances from the terms of the city of Muny comprehensive zoning ordinance to allow conversion of an existing commercial building to contain three business suites in a residence zone on premises located at 217 South Cherry Street, Muny, Indiana, as more accurately described in the application. Could I have the applicant please come to the podium? Please state your name and address for the record and tell us what you are looking to do. Uh, Rebecca Hannah, sorry. [clears throat] Um, PO Box 549, Muny, Indiana 47308. Um, I have a building that is a commercial building. It is in a residential zone. Um, and I would like to have the ability to have multiple businesses in there. That would be by appointment only. Um, three total. Um, I believe I saw in your application that there'll be some signage. Do you want to talk about that to the board?

Um, so I actually have an office in like half of the building for myself personally and there's no sign for that because it's just where I work out of myself. Um the other two businesses would have a sign on each side of the building on the side of the building um to so that um the people coming for their appointments can know where to go.

Um you stated that it's in a residence zone. Do you have any concern about parking or do you want to give an overview of the parking situation? Um, so when I purchased the building, it was a doctor's office, so there's two parking lots. So there is plenty of parking that's already existing. Like I don't remember how many exactly um but like 12 or 13 spots at least. Okay. Yeah, looks like there's in the picture there's at least 12 um curb spots for parking. Yeah, they're on both sides. So yeah. Okay. Um, have you spoken to anybody or heard any opposition to your request?

Um, I spoke to like all the neighbors I know around me and no one has any opposition to it. Um, so no opposition. [laughter] Okay. Any other questions from the board? Okay. You're free to sit down.

Okay. Thank you. Um, we would now invite anybody wishing to speak in favor of BZA63-25 to the board or to the podium. Seeing none, we would invite anybody wishing to speak in opposition. Okay. Seeing none, the chair would entertain a motion. I'll um move that we approve BCA63-25 as presented.

I'll take that.

Mr. Billington, yes. Miss Brandon, yes. Miss Kaiser, yes. Miss Knap, yes. Miss Fritz, abstain. Okay, so that is four yeses. So that is official action of the board of approval of 63-25. We will our office will provide you with certification of that approval and that will allow you to move forward with your permits for your signage and um conducting your business.

Thank you. And I neglected to mention that after your case is heard, you are free to leave. All right, moving on. We will now hear BZA 64-25. Jurisdiction Board of Zoning Appeals being a public hearing on the matter of an application filed by Lindseay Young, 1600 East County Road, 900 North, Eaton, Indiana, requesting variances from the terms of the Delaware County Comprehensive Zoning Ordinance to allow decreased front setback and to allow a decreased rear setback for a new barn in a farm zone on premises located at 1600 East County Road, 900 North, Union Township, Delaware County, Indiana, as more accurately described in the application. Hi, can you please state your name and address?

My name is Lindsay Young. Address is 1600 East County Road 900 North in Eaton, Indiana 47338. Um, we are the barn that we had was hit by the tornado on April 2nd. Um, and insurance said it was we can't use it anymore, so they weren't going to repair it. So, we had to get a different um structure. um instead of taking down the old one, which would cost quite a bit of money. We're trying to figure all that out. But um it was just easier to move it to another area. And we have plenty of space out by Highway 3 that we can't really use because it's really close to the highway. Um but when we went to looking into putting it over there, we had like a um few issues. Tom said we just needed a variance for and he didn't see it being an issue. Um, but it's for storage, um, for our mower and everything else that we use because we no longer have one. Like all of our outbuildings were pretty much destroyed. So, um, that's that's what we're seeking to put it there for. And you stated it's for personal usage only.

Yeah. We do plan to like put a driveway and stuff over there, but that's like in the future. Just trying to get one step done at a time. Um, any questions from the board? Okay, I invite you to take a seat. Um, at this time, anybody wishing to speak in favor of BZA64-25 can come to the podium. See none. Anybody wishing to speak in opposition to BZA 64-25. Seeing none, the chair will now entertain a motion.

I will move that we approve BA64-25 with the condition that the old barn be removed after the new barn is completed and that the barn is used for personal use only and will not be used for business. Second,

Miss Brandon, yes. Miss Kaiser, yes. Miss Knap, yes. Mr. Billington, yes. Miss Fritz,

yes. Okay. So, that is five yeses. So that is official action of the board of approval of BCA64-25. Our office will provide you with the certification of that approval which will then allow you to go forward with your um applying for your permits. Moving on, we will now hear BZA 65-25. Jurisdiction Board of Zoning Appeals being a public hearing on the matter of an application filed by Steven S. Massie 11801 West County Road, 400 South, Yorktown, Indiana, requesting a variance of use from the terms of the Delaware County Comprehensive Zoning Ordinance to allow operation of a tree service business, including the storage of work vehicles in a farm zone, a reduced east side setback, and a reduced rear setback on premises located at 11801 West County Road 400 South, Salem Township, Delaware County, Indiana. as more accurately described in the application. You could begin with your name and your address and then just giving the board an overview of what you're looking to do.

Uh Steven Massie, 11 801 West County Road, 400 South, Yorktown, Indiana. [clears throat] I have a tree service. I provide a great service during the summer. we get really busy operating it out of the buildings, existing buildings on my property creates a great benefit. Um, I do store firewood there for my personal use. The buildings that I use the outbuildings, I use the firewood for. Um, I want to be able to, and my whole goal is behind the house, um, on the back side where I've got the barns and everything to be able to use that back half to store the equipment to come and go, leave during the day. Obviously, we're a tree service. We'll be bringing a few trucks in and out. We're not huge. We're just my partner and I and one other guy. Um, but we'd like to be able to utilize what we have um for that services. There is times we've got to with logistics drop wood before we take it off. We get busy during the summer. I work from 7 a.m. usually till 900 p.m. 6 days a week. And if we get in late, it's hard to call another customer. Hey, we want to be able to drop it there, pick it back up in a in a week, in a day, two days, get it off the property, separate the firewood for my personal use. Um, but my whole goal is to utilize the whole back half.

Um, since this is for a business, can you speak to if there will be any signage? No, because there'll be no customers coming in and out. It's just going to be us, you know, if you know, my partner comes or one of our employees comes, gets in a vehicle, leaves maintaining vehicles like that. And then for the work vehicles um and any storage of equipment, it looks through the photos that we have that you have some existing out buildings. Is that stuff going to be stored within those? Is it going to be out on visible on the property?

They'll be out part of them will be outside. Um part of them are inside. I've got a an older bucket truck that's my dad's in the front that's needs repairs. We finally got parts in it. My goal is is to move that out of the front of the property. Um the bucket trucks too big for the buildings. The dump trailers are too big for the buildings. The other trucks, they're diesel. So we try to get them inside during the winter. Summertime, you know, it's usually dark when we're done, daylight when we're leaving. Any questions from the rest of the board? Okay, I think you're good to have a seat. Um, I would now invite anybody wishing to speak in favor of BZA65-25 to the podium. Name's Ernest Westerfield, 11900 West County Road, 400 South, Yorktown, Indiana. [clears throat] I just want to say uh when I first moved to uh where I live at currently, probably what is it, 2021, one of the first things that some of my neighbors did was tell me. They [clears throat] wanted to be a good neighbor to me. So, I want to do the same to my other neighbors. So, I think anytime we can add a business, it helps the community. Um, I live directly across the street from Steve and I've noticed that he has put a lot of time in doing updates to his property, uh, as well as landscaping and making it more look more visually appealing. Um, there's tons of current businesses on our road. Uh, you know, I've seen his trucks come down through there. I don't

see an issue with it. Uh, it's nothing compared to the people that speed through that road. Um, so you know, uh, like I said, I just want to be a good neighbor to Steve and support him and what he wants to do. And I appreciate everybody's time. Thank you.

Anyone else wishing to speak in favor of BCA65-25?

Good evening. My name is Karen Westerfield. I live at 11900 West County Road, 400 South, um, Yorktown, Indiana. Uh, my husband just spoke and I pretty much have everything to agree with him. I would just add that he has been a good neighbor to us. Um, I feel like he runs a very good business, a respectable business. Um, he does his best to always keep things tidy and clean. I'm sure you guys know when it comes to brush, shrubs, and trees, it's not the easiest thing to make those nice, stacked, and pretty, but he does do his best. um keeping his trucks in line. Uh you know, when I come out of my house every day, I can literally see onto his property directly and I've never had a problem with what I've seen. So, I just like to speak on his behalf and I wish him luck on his business. Thank you. All right. Is there anyone else wishing to speak in favor of BCA65-25? Okay, seeing none, I would now invite anybody wishing to speak in opposition of BCA65-25 to come to the podium. Jason Reed, it's 11951 West 400 South, Yorktown, Indiana. And I want to kind of start with saying I want Steve's business to do good. I own a business right next to him. We knew good. We had a plan of what we were going to do. I've never Steve's never talked to me about a plan or anything on this. And when I walk out the house, I see the equipment everywhere. I see brush. I see the trees.

I feel he may try to do his best at that, but it it doesn't seem very good in my aspect of it that I get he's working all the time. Maybe his house isn't the best place for that to be. I work all the time. We take care of the place. We keep it we keep it up. We have to do a set thing. We've always done that. And then, sorry, I kind of I went down and talked to him about the burning because his solution, it seems to me, is he dumps the brush, he dumps the trees, he piles the trees up, and his solution is to burn the brush. Well, that isn't good for the neighbors. It ain't good for us cuz it's a lot. And then I went and talked to him and it seems like his solution is still just to burn. And I don't think that's a viable solution by any means. I'm kind of reading here. And the other thing for what we had to pay to taxes and taxes for our property, the ground, I I can't I don't think that's helping it any. And we still have to pay those taxes as well. And then the other thing, his burn pile, his trees, I'm pretty sure part of his garage is on our property as well. And the burn pile, we had corn up. Well, that burning with all the corn right there. I mean, what if that cornfield would have caught on fire? House would have caught on fire. The barns would have caught on fire. It would have been a mess in the woods and we'd have had a huge mess. Like I said, I have tried talking to Steve. It just I I get nowhere with it. I feel and I when all this happened, Stephen never once came to me said, "Hey, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do this." And I feel like I've been left out of the dark. And I

mean, if I would have known and we could have tried to do something, it might have been different. But it's just been a mess and it's an eyes sore. And I I'm sorry for saying that and I I probably a terrible neighbor. But the other thing is with the we are at your three minutes. So if you want to share your last thought quickly

with the the surveying and the ground he's he's trying to get an egress I think or something whatever it is. Let me see here. The rear set back. We have a survey of the ground. I could have told Steve that. I'm I've contacted Ashton's. They're supposed to come out, stake all that off. I think we should do that first before we grant any of that to know where we're at. Part of the barn is on there and then what we're going to do about that before we grant a setback of any of the stuff that's there. And I know new buildings have been put there and stuff has been done. So, okay.

Like I said, I'm not trying to be terrible, Steve. Thank you, Mr. Rey. Um, anyone else wishing to speak in opposition?

Yes. My name is Steven Wright. I live at uh 11700 West County Road and 400 South. Um, I guess I'm a little confused here for from my perspective. Um, I see the property already being used in a commercial aspect. Um, to build on what Mr. Reed said um from my observation um there's a continuous supply of wood coming in. I personally don't see the wood going out is all I experience because I live directly to the norththeast um of the gentleman um which is a prevailing wind of the summertime is southwest. The only way I see wood going out of there is through burning it. Um, I believe uh my wife sent you guys an email uh with some pictures uh documenting the current conditions uh that were shown in June of 25 and then some pictures of what it currently appears to be. Um and it's it's actually gone downhill quite dramatically in those six months. Um um and you know there's a continuous supply of wood. There's like stacks of woods four and five foot tall all around the front of it around the side of it. And one instance this past summer there was literally a fire going for for almost three weeks straight. Every day sun up to sun down that fire was burning. Now, after about a week of that prevailing winds carrying those fumes and ash all over my vehicles, my roof, and breathing that, um, I was forced with no other options actually to call the fire department because it was a health hazard. Um, it was causing difficulty breathing. We couldn't open up our windows um to air it out on those

nice cool summer mornings. We were forced to keep everything shut down and actually uh pinned up and keep our air conditioning on. So, um I am opposed to it. Um I don't know, you know, under the current conditions, it's not commercial, but it's currently being used in a commercial aspect. So, I can only imagine once the zoning comes through what what conditions it would continue to go through. I am very pro small business. I've been a small business owner for 25 years. I'm not opposed to a small business, but what I am opposed to is having a house, okay, in a p in an area that's predominantly well-kept. 95% of the people up and down that road spend a lot of time and a lot of effort maintaining their properties um to a very high standard. Um and I see one property continuing to decay in it in its curb appeal. Um I know there is some work going on to the house and I applaud that. Okay. My issue is with the giant piles of tree and wood sitting all over the place.

Okay, thank you. Y

Kylen, would now be a good time to interject about the materials that the office received about this case? Yeah, so we do have a letter um from the county building commissioner. So, he did go to the property in response to a complaint is what um started all of this. So, Tom Fouch did visit the property. He did send a letter out to Mr. Massie um stating that all any and all business operations would need to cease and then he would need to apply for this variance if he wanted to be able to continue those activities. Um so, he did respond to the complaint. He did send a letter to Mr. Massie and then um asking him to contact the office within seven business days which he did which then we got started on this process. Um you should also received a couple things that were not in your packets that we put at your place settings um this evening. We do have an email from um Laura Wright in opposition along with some photos and a log of emergency communication. Looks like some calls to the fire department are listed in that packet. And then you did receive the um an email from Jason and Ashley Reed with pictures in that as well. Thank you, Ken. I invite you to the podium.

Thank you.

My name is Nick Mander and I live at 11 1910 West County Road, 400 South. We're just cateing from Steve and like Ernie and Karine said, we appreciate the fact that uh we want to have great neighbors and want to have a great relationship with our neighbors. Steve has actually done work for me in the past years, but frankly, my concern is we have several businesses up and down 400 South now. We have a lot of traffic up and down 400 South without the businesses, without the farm. This is a residential area. It's an agricultural area. I didn't move out on 400 South to live in an industrial or a commercial park. I want to live in the county. And so again, as Mr. Wright said, I'm not opposed to small business. I've been a small business owner for 50 years. I want to see Steve prosper. When Steve in another life, I don't know, another business partner or whatever, used to have uh a commercial location on the south side of Muny where they kept their all of their equipment, where they kept all their excess woods and all of that stuff. I think his uh business partners have changed in the last year, six months. Um and um I have to say that Steve's in in my humble opinion has the property has gone and deteriorated significantly in the last 6 months to a year. We as uh has been stated we take we think very very good care of our property. We we see all of the people up and down 400 South doing the same thing. Steve is not taking good care of his property. He's not being a good steward of his property. He's not come to me. Jason Reid and his wife came to us and asked us and sat down and gave us a business plan before they ever put their business in. The gentleman that used to be in Steve's house came to us and asked us if

he could rebuild cattle trailers. He wanted a zoning branch. Sat down in our living room and talked to him about it. Steve has never once come to us and said a thing to us. It's his prerogative. That's fine. But for those reasons and the devaluation of what I believe to be our property because of his property, I'm in I I'm afraid I have to oppose.

Thank you. Anyone else wishing to speak in opposition? Hello, my name is Derek Reid and I live at 120001 West County Road, 400 South, Yorktown. Um, I am directly due east of Mr. Massie. Um, he has made great strides in improving the house, improving the property because I worked for the gentleman before that that had the horse business, horse trailer business. It went into foreclosure. the property went downhill pretty quick. Um the only issue that I've had is the constant burning all summer. Um and then there are very large piles of tree debris that never seem to move. And when they do move, it appears that they just go to the brush pile and get burned. Thank you for your time. Anyone else wishing to speak in opposition? [clears throat] Yes, I'm Dan Moody, live at 11600 West, 400 South. My biggest problem is the burning. [snorts] Stop the burning, please. We've all heard of burn pits. We have a burn pit. When a fire department comes to put out a fire and they use a thousand gallons of water to put the put a wire the fire out. That is a burn pit. We smell it. We even smell it when it's

put out. Have you ever put out a grill? You have that smell. And it's the same way with the burning. I had pictures taken and it looks like I called in air support. That's how bad it was. And it lingers. It lingers in the in in the field and it lingers over across 400. And it's like we can't open our windows because the smoke comes in. If the if it's out, we get the soot smell. It comes in. There have been many times when you can't mow your yard because you can't breathe that stuff. Now, we all know in Iraq the burn pits. Look what that's done. Well, what's this doing to us? We smell this every time it starts up. It's not a little campfire. It's a really, really big problem. If he could just stop the burning, take the wood somewhere else. Take it. You ECI takes stuff. A lot of places take stuff. And another thing is clean clean up the place. Clean up the yard. It's starting to look really bad. And that seems to be if it does look bad, what if I want to sell my house? and someone comes to look at it. He's burning and they're thinking, "Oh, I don't want to buy this house. It's in a bad neighborhood." So, that's where I'm coming. We have to to smell it and we'd like for it to stop cuz it it's it's just not it's not healthy. And that's all I have to say. Thank you.

Good evening. My name is Debbie Clingman. I live at 11760 West County Road, 400 South there in Yorktown. Um, we see Mr. Massiey's place from just diagonal from what our property is. I have to concur with others that are here. The burning has been over and above. Um, I did get on the public records and I had pulled up an application that he had filled out that did state and I highlighted it and it specifically says no open burning is performed for business purposes. That right there raises a great big question mark for me because if you on an application are going to state that there is no burning going on when every single day several days of the week I sat out on my front patio. I'm retired. I can do those things. And I watch truckloads, not just one, not just two, but several of green refuge from other places where he's doing his business. And I can I commend him for being a business owner. Good for you. But when that business is infringing on our well-being out there in an area that we've gone out and we've bought because we liked living out in the country and we like having our day-to-day things. Um, it it's bothersome when you falsify something on an application, which is how I'm taking this by saying that there is no burning.

That really concerns me because it makes me wonder if he's granted this and he gets the green light, what else is going to happen? I have no thoughts. whatsoever of selling my place at this point. But there's going to be a time that I may have to as I age out. What's going to happen to not just my property values, but all of my neighbors? And I'm all about being a good neighbor. But I don't find doing things like that is being a good neighbor. You're not taking others into consideration when these types of things are happening. I won't even put up a chicken house without going and asking my neighbors because I'm afraid of upsetting someone. They live next door to me. We have to be considerate of others. Thank you. Anybody else wishing to speak in opposition? Hello, I'm Laura Wright. I live at 11700 West County Road, 400 South. I think that you probably have my email and pictures that I sent in.

Yes, the board um all the members were given that packet tonight.

Perfect. A couple more things so everyone else can hear. Um, I am a real estate agent. I own my own brokerage. Um, I do not operate my brokerage out of my home. Um, I do understand small business and I can appreciate that. Um, also as a real estate agent, I have to agree with my fellow neighbors that our property values are extremely important. Um, I'm being taxed in one year. Uh, my property value increased almost $100,000 in one year. That's that's huge. So, for me, you know, looking at a property that is that much of an eyesore, I have a huge problem. Um the burning is obviously a huge issue. U we are granted a bundle of rights when we own um a piece of property specifically right to quiet enjoyment. Um that is an interference. That can be noise. That could be smoke. Um I cannot enjoy my property because of that smoke. I have animals. I don't want to leave them outside for any given period of time. We have children. Um so I strongly oppose this. I believe that his business um should be located somewhere else ex especially like Miss Klingman said he lied on the application saying there is no burning. You can see that um just from June until December the amount of wood that's accumulated in July is when the fire department came through. I sent you those those fire department runs. Um, so maybe that did something and he stopped burning at that time or um I I have noticed as well that he burns during no ban or no burn orders. Um, when there's a burn ban, I'm very very concerned with that. As Mr. Reid said, there's a corn field right next door. Um, I I can see that being an incredible problem if he's allowed to continue this.

Anybody else wishing to speak in opposition? Seeing none, I would invite the applicant to come back and address some of the concerns. Um, specifically, if you would like to speak, I think we'll start with the burning. Um, and then you can hit on the tree debris and the general upkeep of the property as well. I think

with the burning, yes, I was burning a lot earlier in the summer. [clears throat] Not a single neighbor and including Jason. Never came to me, never spoke to me and said, "Hey, you know," and then we got Stephen. Um, not a single person came over and said, "Hey, Steve. You're smoking us out. Hey, Steve. This bothers us. You know, I talked to Steve I said I Okay, so what we can't have the back and forth. I'm sorry, guys. So, if we can just stick with

So, so when and Jason did call me. He did talk to me

about about the situation with the burning since July. I have stopped 100% anything with the business. I have stopped since the fire department. I don't know who called them. You know, since then I have 100% stopped. I have had a fire when there's no wind when I'm processing the firewood. A very small fire when the corn was dry. No fires because I don't want a danger. Um, but once again, I am shipping the stuff out with the mess. You know, I know it got a mess in the front. I have been shipping everything out. Everything that I had in the front, that's all the wood. Half of it's gone. I would have had the other half gone, but my truck, the transmission went down. I finally got it up. We sent out a load today. We're sending out loads within a month. My whole goal is to have the front and the side completely clean. No burning. That's perfectly fine. If none of the neighbors want me to burn, but I would like to note with everybody that the one and two days that I have burnt, maybe three since then, I look over and I see that neighbor burning. I see that neighbor burning and I'm like, "Okay, a pile this big, then I go ahead and burn." I apologize through the summer. Yes, I did have fires that I shouldn't or they were lingering and I've stopped that. Number one. Number two, yes, it was messy. I had a lot of people that just inundated me. They

can't afford the high expensive tree service that everybody else charges. The logistics of getting it getting it out. I am getting it there. Half my yard from what I had is cleaned up. My whole goal is to keep everything, you know, back. I don't want it to look a mess and it has gotten that way. But I want to point out that number one, I haven't been burning like I was. And so, yes, I don't want to discount them saying that, yeah, it the beginning of the summer, it was that way. Once I got notation from them that it was a problem, I stopped. And if I did have a fire, the one lady said that it was during a burn ban, I want to note that I have called three times to the fire department and let them know since the summer that I am burning today. The fire department said, "You're doing everything perfectly legal." The fire department when they were called, "You've got notation for them." The fire department came to my property, said, "Steve, we are so sorry we're here. You are not doing anything wrong, but you're a little bit big. So, yeah, we're going to put out half of the fire because you're not doing anything illegal and doing anything wrong." So, but since then I want you guys to know that I have stopped it. Yes, I got messy. Yes, my goal is to keep everything in the back. I want to look like everybody else, but I've got so many people out there that can't afford it. And I I unfortunately am not like everybody else. I put myself last. And unfortunately, it's not fair to the neighbors

because I spend all my time taking care of everybody else. It's my fault that I have a big heart, tried to take care of everybody else, and haven't kept it up. But I have in the last month, I've taken out 10 loads. I would have had another 10 out if my truck wouldn't have been down for the last two weeks. But my goal is the next month by springtime to have it all cleaned up and moved up. They don't want me to have a fire. That's fine. But when I look over and they've got a fire, the other neighbors got a fire, the other neighbors got a fire, that's fine.

I have um a clarifying question. And so I'm looking at your application which does state that there is no burning for business purposes. You stated that since July you haven't burn I've had I've had three fires. And were those for personal use then?

I I process firewood for all the buildings that I heat. And so then going through the firewood and separating it, the small amount of brush, the small amount of debris, the small amount of rotten wood from that. I have had three fires since July about once a month. And except when the corn was dry, I made sure there was absolutely nothing that was going to be in danger of that. But my whole goal is to not look the way it looks. Yes, it got messy because I spent all my time focusing and helping everybody else. And I have, like I said in the last month, you know, been cleaning it up from the front to the back. Finally got a part for the yellow bucket truck out front. Do I want it there? No. It's an eyesore. And I believe it is. And it's it's not that I want to look that way. I just have been putting all my customers before myself.

Okay. Um you just stated that you've been doing your best um to improve the appearance of the property. Could you um speak to if you would be open to the board in stating um a requirement that there be some kind of screening for your business materials and the vehicles? Would that be something that would be possible in the business?

Absolutely. I mean, you can even state, hey, you know, don't have a fire. If you're going to have a fire, just a little tiny barrel or whatever. Um, you can state if everything the building's kind of surrounding, you know, if it's kept back in the back half, it would be nothing different than what Jason has his vehicles and equipment parked there and it would look like a normal home. I I had planned on on the back half plant and giant arboritas to give it a screening. I have fencing that I could put up, but it's going to be ugly, but the arboritis I think would be a better option.

Anyone else on the board have um questions from Mr. Massie? It sounds like you one time at a commercial location. Is that a possibility to to keep things moving for you?

That [clears throat] that is a possibility. My old business partner um it was my building that I purchased and for insurance purposes I put his name on that building and since I have left with left him it has been in courts. I do know that I get the building back, but we are going for arbitration in January. Um, so that would be my ultimate.

Would you be open to like a temporary variance to help you get through? I mean, if I had, you know, six months and then we could readress it and then if the neighbors still have a problem, you know, even 3 months, give me time. I mean, I know it got a mess. I know it doesn't look near as pretty as all the other properties. And like I say, it's not what I wanted. I unfortunately put everybody else first, but

feel like you live in a pretty nice neighborhood. I feel like there's some room to to work.

And the last month, like I say, I've [snorts] been working with those piles, getting them out of there. And another month they're going to be out of there. another month. You know, you look at the pictures of Google or what I had a year ago and it was not a problem. And then I just got so inundated with people. I can't afford, you know, the cost of the tree service. I can't afford the high dump fees. I can't. So logistically through Facebook trying to get people who want the wood, trying to get because the cost of dumping one of those dump trailers is up to $300.

Yeah. And I've got people I offer 0% financing. There's people that don't even qualify and I'm like, fine, pay me every month what you can.

And so I'm trying out there to do the best I can. I didn't even take time to mow the yard like I should have because nine 10 o'clock at night I'm taking my work boots off six days a week. And so my whole goal is to not be that way. And now that I know that it bothers the neighbors, I mean I have been over the last month, month and a half cleaning it up. And you know, if I need to plant the arbor bodies, you know, Jason has his vehicles there, but they're set off to the back. If I have everything to the back, you're really from the road, you're not going to notice it. I just want to um clarify it is it's my understanding and Mr. Wisely can maybe confirm whether this is correct or not that in Indiana there is a um open burning is not allowed at all. Um Fred and I have looked this up previously for other cases. Um that's my understanding that open burning is not allowed at all in Indiana. Um but I know you made the comment that you spoke with um the fire department. So I just wanted to clarify that with you of

they gave me a list of rules and they said number one when they did come out one of the neighbors or somebody called and said I'm calling anonymous anonymously it's a health hazard to me that he is burning. So the fire department comes out. They look at my fire and they're like Steve I am so sorry we're out here. Number one, they called for smoke for the health hazard and we offered them medical. They denied it. He said, "Steve, you're not doing anything wrong. There is no smoke and it's blowing straight up in the air." And they gave me a list of rules. And the captain from Daleville said, "Steve, call us before you have a fire. And as long as you follow these rules, we can't do anything about it. And I have called them three times since July when the fire department was called to my property. And you know, so yeah, I can understand the neighbors saying earlier in the summer, maybe June, May, but as soon as I found out it's a problem, I haven't been doing it.

Mr. wisely. Yeah. So, the state does have very clear regulations on what you can and can't do for burning. I believe the issue we came into before was a burned pit, which is something that is not allowed in Indiana. Um, my assumption would be that the Salem Township Fire Department gave you probably the state's guidelines on it. That would be my suspicion. But yeah, the state does have a clear set of guidelines on what types of burnings are and are not allowed. And I believe that is through the state health department,

right? Any further questions from the board? Um, you are free to have a seat discussion. Um, I guess Alan or Mr. Wisley. Um, can you So, Mr. Billington suggested a time restraint um on the variance. Is that something that we are able to do? Um yeah, I would

six months. Yeah. So, well, you would have to specify that the time limit does not apply to the entire request because you can't put a time limit on a setback variance. Um so, the time limit would obviously only need to apply to the business use portion of the variance request. Um there are other types of variances that we do that have time limits of like the mobile home residential is coming to mind. Um, so as long as it's clear what the guidelines are, when those dates are and like I said, it can only apply to the business use portion the open burning and stuff's just out. So would be subject to the state

guidelines. Again, if the board want the board does also have the freedom to put on a condition that if he is found uh to be violating that the state uh that he is violating the state code on burning then the business use variance with labs. That's similar to all sorts of other types of conditions we put on. So is the state is the state burning rules for personal use? because I'm I'm reflecting back to the comment in regard to no b no no burning for commercial purposes. Um are the rules that we're discussing that the state has put out there for personal use?

Yeah. So the state's rules relate to the size and stuff like that of your burning, right? So for you or I if we own our home and we want to just burn a small brush pile, any of the burning that would be going on as a result of commercial for business purposes should not be allowed because as part of the I'm assuming part of the application. I just need clarification.

I'm going to have Mr. Daniel add to that. Um the board probably remembers that we had a previous case earlier this year on um a tree business and um Kylen and I um looked up the IDM and state board of health regulations at that point and um what's coming to my mind is um that uh wood and debris that is uh harvested or brought from off the property may not be burned, which is different than um cleaning up the brush on your property.

Um but you're bringing in something that did not grow on this property and that is specifically a line item that is prohibited. Yeah. So when he [clears throat] So when he is speaking about his neighbors burning, is this just personal little fires that they're burning or Jason burns um a small amount again?

Yeah, I'm I'm sorry. You're gonna have to come back up to the podium to answer that question. Apologies. and just state your name again for the record and yeah because we haven't heard it already.

My name is Stephen Massie. Um the neighbors that I'm referring to having fires is Jason with his plumbing business. He has fires for the cardboard um I'm assuming the size of them from um water heaters um pallets, stuff like that. He has one every great once in a while for that. The other neighbor I'm talking about is um some people who's bought a property. Um it could be just from their property there. They don't have a business or anything like that. Okay. So, those are the two neighbors that I'm talking about.

Okay. Um and then with Fred's statement about only being able to burn brush that was harvested from the property, you would be fine following that guideline. Yeah, I have I have no problem stopping the burning during the 3 to six months. No burning at all. You'd be okay with that? Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. I And like I said, I've only been doing it once a month at the greatest. I mean, three times since July and and that was just like I say, a pile this big. So, it's not been huge piles like I was before. But I have no problem, you know, appeasing everybody else. Um, like I say, I've been taking it off site. Um, in within a month or two, the rest of it, now that my equipment's back up and running, the front yard's going to be cleaned up, the sideyard's going to be cleaned up, and the firewood that I'm processing on the side, it'll be put put up in the barns.

You mentioned that you've had three fires since July. Do you know when the last one was? I would have to get the call records a month ago. Um, it's been after the corn harvest. I know that because I I did absolutely nothing while the since the corn was starting to dry and the corn corn was dry and I've had one maybe three weeks ago, maybe a month ago. I don't know exactly when. And then the time before that was a month and a half ago before the corn actually was green and dried out. Any other questions from the board? Okay, I'm going to invite you to take a seat again. Okay. If there are no more questions, the chair would entertain a motion. We have time to hear from both sides. So, we don't allow any more questions from the audience.

I have a question for Mr. Wisley. How does a based on the wording of the request? How how does a time limit even work? What do we wait? What is the point in a what is the point in in setting a three month time? Is it three months to clear the property appropriately without burning? And

so that is up to the board as to how they want to handle that. if they want to put a time limit is what that is that is up to the board. Um if the board does choose to do a time limit then um when that time limit is expired then it would um and if business use or whatever was continuing then it would be up to Mr. Massie to either apply for additional variance or it would be um and designing code would otherwise be enforced by Mr. Fouch. Okay. I would I would say that three months seems like a very short amount of time. Um given the amount of work, right? Yeah. But just given the amount of No, that's

work of you know the the applicant having to come back reapply. You're saying at least six months probably. Yeah. I just given all the work and people that are involved to do something else, I think the board should just be considerate of everyone's time. Mhm. Um and if there we are going to instate a a time limit.

So the setback would be irrelevant at this point. Well, you still that is still a part of the variance. You are that would still be a part of the variance that is being voted on. Um, but the time limit would not apply to it. It doesn't the time, right? Because so you would we would vote for one variance. Or you or the board or the board can separate it out and vote for the setback and the business variance is separated, right? That's kind of how I'm feeling like it needs to be separated a little bit. Okay. Okay.

I have no idea the right way to word that. I'm just saying I feel it needs to be separated. [laughter] Well, I hadn't even looked at the setback because of all the other discussion, but we do have a request for a zero these side. It seems to me that we typically crown on a zero. Well, these are these are existing um structures here.

Um Mr. Daniel, do you want to speak on this a little bit too? [snorts] The setbacks actually were discovered by staff when we were doing review of the case. Um it started as a variance of use request for the business and um looking at the aerials uh and going back at looking at uh historic areas. It looks like that um the buildings to the southeast um are either on the actual property lines or perhaps [clears throat] uh going over creating an encroachment. Um this is looking at aerials and um the partial data which is the best that we have. We do not have a survey which would be the way to really determine where those property corners are and whether there is an encroachment. Um so we talked to Mr. Massie about the um possibility of adding the request since these since the board would be hearing uh a variance request for the business and uh he was agreeable to adding the um setback variances. Um they are approximate and based on aerial photography and the parcel lines. Um I believe I heard Mr. Reed say that he was in conversation with a local surveyor about getting an accurate survey uh since he owns the property that is um closest to and surrounding Mr. Massiey's property. Um so at some point in the future we might have better data but um the request is what it is in front of you.

So are we premature in approving a setback prior to a survey? Um yes this if so the setback would be in would be in effect and then obviously if the survey turns out that the buildings are encroaching then that's a separate issue. Okay. Okay. Um so obviously we can't pick them up and move them. So yeah [laughter] correct but so this is just saying that the buildings can be up to that close. We don't know exactly where they are. We know they're pretty close to it.

Right. And we were asking for the um he's asking for the one foot in rear rather than 50 and the zero rather than 25. So we're only technically playing with the one foot and

Okay. But what we will do would not hamper any Okay. [clears throat] Don't make a motion all at once, guys. [laughter] Well, I will make a motion that we separate the issues and we only vote first that we that that I I will move that we approve the setbacks that have been requested on BZA 6525. it separate from the rest of the request.

I second that. We go ahead and vote on that one first. Miss Kaiser, yes. Miss Knap, yes. Mr. Billington, yes. Miss Brandon, yes.

Miss Frick, yes. Okay. So that is five yeses. So that is official action of approval of the portion of BZA65-25 in regards to the setbacks. All right. I will make a motion that we approve I don't even know how to how to say this that we approve the request for

what do I say? The business use the business of the property. Okay. and that it be um granted for six months only. Um that the variance would be used for the applicant only, non-transferable with property, and that all the business materials and vehicles be screened from view. That the operation um would not be allowed after I don't know 8:00 and that that The owner would clean up the area. No burning for not non-pirst.

No, there will be no burning on site. Okay. Can we repeat that back to make sure we're all on the same page? This is what I have.

Second first. I'll second that. Okay. So, what I have in the motion is that it would be to approve the business use for six months only. It would be apply to the applicant only. All materials, all business materials and vehicles need to be screened from view. No operations after 8:00 p.m. The owner would clean up the property, which it I don't know if that's how measurable that is. Um, and no burning. Um, can we clarify what Miss Snap um meant with the um cleaning up? If she had any specific

the materials that have been brought on site would be removed. Removed or replaced in a appropriate because he talked about separating out basically the trash from the usable wood. And so if he has usable lumber that he's going to use for other burn purposes or for heating those be stored in the back as he described and the trash be removed just not burned properly. Does that correctly describe your motion?

I'm agreeable too. All right, you ready for roll? Yep. Okay, we have Miss Kaiser. Yes. Miss Knap, no. Mr. Billington, yes. Miss Brandon, yes.

Miss Fr? Yes. Okay. So, we have four yeses, one no. So, that is official action of BZA 65-25, the portion in regards to the business use um with the conditions described. Our office will create certification describing that approval with all the conditions listed and make that available to you and that will allow you to continue with your business operation. We will be moving on to rules of procedure. Circle back.

Yeah, got it. [laughter] So I can read it and then Allan Okay. Yeah.

Okay. [laughter] Go for it. We are circling back around to BZA 56-25 jurisdiction board of zoning appeals being a continuation of a public hearing on the matter of an application filed by Andrew Collins 6320 North County Road 600 West Gaston, Indiana requesting variances from the terms of the Delaware County Comprehensive Zoning Ordinance to allow increased height for a new accessory structure and to allow the accessory structures total square footage to be greater than that of the dwelling. All for a new pole barn in a resident zone on premises located at 6320 North County Road, 600 West, Harrison Township, Delaware County, Indiana, as more accurately described in the application. Um, I do I did want to double check with our staff, which Fred just stepped out. Have you either of you that you know have spoken with Mr. Collins since the first meeting?

I have not spoken to him. Okay. Okay. And Fred has not that I know of. Okay. We'll double check with Fred when he returns. Fred, I was just asking if either of you or staff people have spoken with Mr. Collins since the first meeting. If I did, it was like the next day. Okay. Um Okay. Um Mr. Wisely, could you please remind the board of our options?

So, at this point, this is um a continuence of the prior public um hearing. Um Mr. Collins has previously presented to the board on this. So, to the extent that there are um the board wishes to continue and hear this matter in his absence, they can do so. any new evidence that is presented. Uh well, any new evidence that is here to be offered could be presented and the board could take action based on what the record is from last month plus any new evidence that is brought in tonight. Um or the board can continue it out to next month.

Okay. and uh clarify that from a procedural standpoint since we don't have the applicant before us there we are unable to hear people speak tonight in favor or in opposition of the case.

So because this is a continuence of the public hearing um to the extent that there is new evidence that could be added to the public hearing. I make the motion that we continue it out till January. I second that. Okay. So, this vote is to continue to our January meeting. Miss Kaiser, yes. Miss Knap, yes. Mr. Billington. Yes. Miss Brandon,

yes.

Miss Frri, yes. Okay, five yeses. So that is um official action of agreement to continue to our January meeting. Our January meeting will be January 29th, 6:00 p.m. in this room. Our office will attempt to contact Mr. Collins to inform him of that as well. I feel like so or if there's no communication from him. Unfortunately,

yeah, the board has already made the motion and voted. So, we're unable to go back and reverse that and we'll just have to continue to January.

It's really up to the board. [snorts] If we if a applicant withdraws, we do notify people of that. So, we will um do our best to if if we know that's going to happen, we will let you know. If the next meeting comes and we don't know if he's coming or not, we'll just have to be here to since it was continued, we'll just have to be here to be ready if he is present.

Um you could give us your information if you want. Um, and then we'll make sure that we let the individuals that want to be notified, we'll notify you. [snorts] Next time there's no

there's the the board would have the option to to deny the um request at that time. And I can just speak for myself, but I think one time's reasonable, you know, to to give a chance. Yeah. Just to, you know, it's being things happen and Yeah. And and speaking personally from myself, too. I wasn't here last month. So, I would I would likely abstain from the vote tonight regardless because I didn't hear the initial arguments last month. So, it it would be important to me personally to hear everything personally. Um, but again, I agree with with him in that oftentimes a a first continuence is is acceptable and normal and reasonable and um if there's no show next time.

Yeah. No,

of course.

Thank you. And now we go into rules of procedure. Oh yeah, rules of procedure. So at your places, I did set the edited version with some notes. So most of the red writing are items that Mr. Murphy had added and or changed. So, it did not look like this on my screen, but when I printed it out, it printed with all the the the notes on the side, but the red are are mostly Mr. Murphy's changes and additions. Um, the yellow is mostly my the yellow notations are mine where I just maybe had a question, wanted to clarify something, or just put a little note next to it. So depending on what the board pleases, um people can take some time to look over this and we can revisit again. I know we've keep pushing this out, but it's not a we have rules of procedure currently. We're we're not operating on,

you know, nothing. So, so just to, you know, make sure everybody has enough time to review my notes. Um, since I didn't get them emailed out, if the board would like to do that, I would love to be able to review it and maybe revisit it next month. Yeah, I appreciate your work on to be able to see it like this. Yeah, this is amazingly. And if anyone has questions or wants to clarify things too, then you guys can come back with those. Sure.

With those thoughts. Okay. I do want to clarify one thing real quick just from the legal perspective because I see that it is raised on the question it relates to the partisan qualifications. Um so the state did change the requirements a few years ago from one primary to two primaries. Okay. um if they are to serve as a member of the part a member representing a particular party um it would be um again and they don't have that voting history then it would they could serve with a letter from the county party chair um and then

and but it is not it's also not limited it doesn't have to be two Republicans and two Democrats it's just no more than two of a particular party. Um, in the past, at least some of the staff, probably none of the board members who are here tonight are going to remember Mr. Bishop. Um, in his case, Mr. Bishop did not have a primary voting history. So, at that time, it was two Democrats, one Republican and Mr. Bishop. So, so no voting history, you could serve, no primary voting history. No primary voting history. You could either get a a chair of a party to write you a letter or you could represent as an independent. Correct. Okay. Okay.

We knew the first part of that. We we had questions on the independent because that was Yeah, that was the case with Mr. Bishop when he was a member. Well, it's getting harder and harder to to find members, especially when people it's primary every four years people change their votes, you know. So, okay. If you live in the city, it's three out of every four years. Okay. But yeah, so I did just want to clarify that one because I saw that that question was raised and I knew that one off hand. Okay. Yeah. So, also I would ask that if any of the members have questions that they want mine and Mr. Murphy's opinion on to email. Um yeah,

you can just email it directly to me. Um or you can include both me and Mr. Murphy and I can you using now Alan? What email do you use now? What's your email address now?

AFIScblegal.com. And if you want to include Mr. Murphy, his is be Murphy. It looks like as a whole the board has agreed to review these the lovely contents presented to us from a lovely office and we will revisit it during next meeting and then Kylen you can have the floor. Okay. So my report we've got building permits issued through the end of November. Um I'm just going to give you the totals here. We've got a total of 786 permits. Our total fees collected are at $145,3289. Inspections completed through the end of November. A total of 1,478 inspections. I do want to bring it to the board's attention that the MO conference is going to be held is going to be co-hosted by our office this coming year for 2026. There are 14 NPOs in Indiana and the conference, the annual conference circles around to all of those NPOs. We are very small compared to some of the other ones um staffwise. We also are set up a little different where we are a county office. So we do not have our own budget and county sets our budget. So kind of to help with some

of those things they have allowed us to team up with Cooko and Anderson. So the conference will physically be held in Cooko but we are co-hosting with Cooko and Anderson. So part of our responsibilities are going to be um organizing the conference um doing some of the the um work the the lifting and preparing. Um we also need to seek out sponsors. So if anyone is aware of any entity or business that would like to be a sponsor. Um we will be seeking out sponsors to help with the meals that will be served. Um we do have some keynote speakers that we will have to pay. We don't have them picked out yet, but we will have to pay some keynote speakers um and we will also have um several sessions set up with um you know people doing presentations or learning sessions. So we are getting started the conference is not until August the end of August uh beginning of September but we are getting started on the planning early because it's a lot to plan. So I think the previous one there's um about 150 to 200 um attendees at these conferences. So um more to come on that. Um also wanted to report that the ordinance revision update is still in progress. Hopefully um by the end of this month we will have chosen the consulting firm that will be working on this and our next meeting we can report to you on that. Um, but this is a process that we're going to want feedback from all of you guys on. We're going to want input um and involvement from our board on what what are the things in the ordinance that we need to look at, revisit, modernize, update, so forth. You guys hear a lot of the variances and requests. You hear all the variances, variance requests that come um before us. So, you kind of know those things that that maybe need a little adjustment in the ordinance um which

would cut down on some of the things that come before this board. So, um also in our land use and planning, we've got our totals there. Um BZA through the end of November, BCA had 62 cases. Uh plan commission heard 30 cases. Plaque committee has heard 19. Subdivision has heard one. BRC has heard one. um for a total of 113 cases. Those are split out between the city and the county. We've heard 72 total city cases and 41 total county cases. Um the other thing I wanted to talk about this evening was um our very own beloved Fred Daniel. He does have his retirement scheduled. Um he is scheduled for retirement. His last day is to be December 31st. Um, you did receive an email, I believe. Um, Fred does not like to be the center of attention, but we're throwing him a party and he has agreed to just let us throw it. [laughter] So, anyway,

plaster these everywhere.

Yes. So, anyway, you guys did receive that. Um, but I did just want to read this because I feel like if anything embodies Fred, it's this paragraph that Kyle Johnson wrote. Um, so I I did just want to read that. Um, this is Delaware, the County Post. Um, saying goodbye to a legend, Fred Daniel is officially retiring, 30 years of service. Known for his wisdom, kindness, and sharp wit, he's been the steady hand behind many of the plan commission's successes and the heart of countless meaningful and memorable moments. Whether offering thoughtful advice, mentoring others, or brightening the room with humor, Fred has brought a rare blend of intellect, empathy, and sincerity to every moment. He has always provided strength and compassion, always showing up with grace, patience, and humility, carrying deep respect through your actions and words. More than his achievements is how he's made us feel. I don't know if [laughter] I could.

Do you want me to finish? That's a lot when your team thinks that you valued, valued, heard, and inspired. Yeah. More than his achieve Oh, go ahead. More than his achievements, it's how he's made us feel. Valued, heard, and inspired that will be remembered most. His legacy will live on long after his final day in the office, continuing to shape the culture and spirit be so thoughtfully he so thoughtfully helped build. I thought I could make it through that.

You did great. But so [clears throat] Brett is not leaving us leaving us. Um we are already planning on having him consult. So, we're already planning on him being in our office possibly about once a week and a [clears throat] first or so, however much we want him um every day. Yeah. So, so he has agreed and and I think he wants to stick around with us a little bit longer, but he's agreed to help us through this transition. So, um you know, to make that a little bit easier. So, um feel free if you would like to show up tomorrow. Um, and feel free to stay after the meeting for a few minutes if you'd like to talk with Fred a little bit. Um,

and you also agree to come to these meetings. So when we have just questions, hey Fred, [laughter] and if you just decide to go ahead and retire, if you need a beats plus one, I mean, right. Yeah. So

would just also like to add um after Marta passed, I don't know that we would have made it through that without Fred. Um, I know you've been thinking about retirement a little bit back then and we convinced you to stay on a little bit longer to help make it through that transition. So, wanted to thank you for that. Yeah, I don't think we would have made it through that time without Fred. I don't think I would have applied for this job without Fred and I don't think I would have been semi successful at this point without Fred. So, We love you.

Okay, as always, thank you everybody for your time. With that, we I'd make a motion or entertain a motion for adjournment. I'll make the motion. Second. Okay. So moved. That's a wrap, folks.

[laughter]