Architectural Review Board - Regular Meeting

Fantastic. Welcome and good evening. This is a meeting of the Darien Architectural Review Board. It is September 15th, 2026 and it is 7.07 p.m. I apologize, I am seven minutes late. It's a first and a last that I'll be doing that. I'm going to take roll call for this evening's meeting. Tonight we have Jamie Stevenson, Rebecca Morrison, Joe Miro, Kate Buscelli, Christina Hart, Anya Janis, our vice chair, Alex Lopatensky, Herve Hammond, our staff member, and I'm Elizabeth Geiger, the chairman. We're going to go right into new application hearings tonight. We have ARB 37-2026. This is Zero Weeds Landing. And viewpoint is PL 26-115. Are they not here?

I'm here.

Oh, beautiful. Okay. So you walk up to the podium. Walk up to the podium. And don't be nervous. We're just going to drill you for about 15 minutes straight. So we looked at the application. Just give us an overview of what you're looking to do. Introduce yourself.

So the history to this is that... What's your name? I'm sorry. Lee Shaloff. I'm a homeowner at 19 Leeds Landing in Darien. So the history is that we had a poll sign on the corner of what is open space B to the entrance to our property. guess. There are shrubs there now and over the winter a car plowed through the open space B over the pole, knocked down the pole and we now have shrubbery So I'm the president of the Homeowners Association and took a survey of people's preferences in terms of what they'd like to see there. And the overwhelming preference of all nine homeowners on Leeds Landing is that we should have a sign similar to that. put some shrubbery around it, a proposed sign, and I submitted with our presentation a sort of diagram outline some reservation about doing a sign like that, that it wasn't necessarily in keeping with the neighborhood and the signs in the neighborhood. My general recollection had been, having lived here for about five years, that there are similar signs like that. And I did a rough canvas of a couple of streets in the neighborhood and found a couple of examples that are

Yeah, I wonder where they are. So for the board, for some background, when Audie and I reviewed this application in advance, and our feedback to Mr. Shayla, I apologize, Shayla, was that monument signs are mostly used in town for corporate, not residential. So we said, if you were to propose this to help your argument, show us where there's for precedent image or something like this, because usually it's a pole sign for residential.

All right, well, so I guess they were I saw that one.

Yeah, I saw it.

14. Were they anywhere else? They were in the packet. They were in the packet. I saw them. Yep. So where? They're not in the edition.

So go to the downloads, Herve. You see the upper right-hand corner. You see that little arrow? Yep, go there. Yeah. And there. First one, open the first one, and the second one. Those are the two.

Ah, I see what you're saying. It doesn't work directly with these?

No, you have to go to the downloads folder to open it up. I see.

Correct.

Yep. So that example, by the way, right there, we can start talking about that. Joe had a good comment.

So compared to what you're presenting being an actual monument, that's more like a pillar, right? It's a column with just a placard on it. So it's a little bit more understated.

I'm not suggesting they're identical in any way. I was just offering them to support the idea that there are masonry structures. Right, okay. And there are things with signs on them. I'm not suggesting that in size and dimension as to what they thought would be presentable and appealing to people coming on to Weeds Landing. If the board obviously isn't in accord and wants to suggest something different, then I'll advise the homeowners that we have to go in a different direction.

So one thing we just have to be concerned of is setting a precedent for future. Like if they wanted to go ahead and, because you have a huge monument, right, if they wanted to come back to us and say they had it, so we want to try to keep some sort of consistency, if we could.

Could we allow a pillar?

I think a pillar, yeah, I think a pillar is something, or even maybe something not as large as six foot by four foot, maybe.

A little more understated. Yeah. It does, the one you're proposing does remind me of a more of a complex of office buildings, right? It's not very.

Yes.

So when I pulled this up, my immediate knee jerk reaction is, what apartment building was this? What what? What apartment building is this? And so then I had to Google it, and I was like, oh, it's just a street. And then we do have some beautiful post signs in Durian. I would almost say that it is something that makes Darien a little unique, not unlike the finger way direction signs in Bedford or the kind of surf shack signs that you have in Montauk. I do think our post signs are something that really identifies us as a town. So I'm kind of more in favor of keeping with, you know, those were two examples, one of which is actually the post on a stone wall. So if you want to stone wall a long post road, I'm all for stone walls. And included on the post there, I could see, but I kind of don't like the idea of just a pillar floating either. I would advocate for a larger stone set back five feet with a post. So that way people wouldn't knock into it. But it would look like the other street signs. But I, that's just.

I think that's a good point. Those pillars that we saw are part of, they're older. The one was historic pillar, right? And they didn't, you have, and you do without competing with it. That's not, that's historic. But the one before that, the... the Straits, is a historic pillar. And there's a hard place. You don't have an opportunity for a whole sign there as much. So I think these are beautiful ideas, too, these glass ones. But I don't know if they fit without. And to Adana's point, doing just a pillar there with no purpose would be odd. Are those signs like a

post with music and it would be like some sort of decoration.

There's some really cool post signs out there. They don't have to be a flimsy. Like the wood carved ones.

Sunset Rose, St. Nicholas, Peach Lane, really up and down Mansfield. Fantastic signage.

I totally understand the board's concerns and I will certainly convey them to the homeowners and we'll come up with another plan and present that view for consideration.

Yeah. If I could just offer a comment too. Weeds Landing itself is very historic for our town. There's rich history about Weeds Landing. So I do support kind of drawing attention to the area in some historically appropriate way. If the Homeowners Association wanted to

Anybody has ideas? And I'm certainly happy to convey those to the other homeowners.

Looking at, I pulled it up on Google Maps, and it's just a great cul-de-sac, right? Very simple, balanced. I mean, I personally think you probably can do two colors. That's exactly what I was going to say. One balance on each side.

So it looks like a gateway into the cul-de-sac. So you would do one on the opposite side as well. I know that gets more involved and more expensive.

a picture and that would certainly help so I can... Not in the circle, right at the end of the street where you're pulling off the poster.

We're going to draw you a quick picture too.

It's good to have architects around. Is there open space on the other side of the street? So what we're talking about is having a monument on one side and a pillar on one side. Yes, exactly.

So two pillars, one on each side?

So to create a gateway.

So a pillar like the one in one The only issue I see with that is there's already a pole sign on the other side. And it might look a little odd for there to be a Weave Landing sign on a stone pillar just adjacent to a pole sign saying Weave Landing. I'm not sure how that would look.

Is it a town pole sign? It's the rain signs. That's too bad. So this is an opportunity to sort of explore some of the more decorative signs around town that are, you know, they're carved. There's usually a logo or something visual. Perhaps go into the historical society and take a look at, you know, some information about Reed's Landing. Okay. Can I grab the artist to help you out?

All right. We'll go back to the drawing board and see if we can find something else.

Thank you so much for your time. to Jamie's point, that is a historic site, we value your idea of doing something substantial here and be supportive to something more fitting with the residential setting. Oh, I understand. Okay.

Okay. Thank you, everyone. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

All right. Our next item is, Mr. Schall, by the way, to follow up on that, I will put the notes for this into our viewpoint system so you guys can see it and you guys could grab that from there and share it with the neighbors. And if you follow up, you can talk to him and I'll accept. Okay. Thank you. ARB 402026 and viewpoint it's PL 26126.

We are going to Brown, Harris, Stevens. Where we were going and then I got a call today that they were not ready to show samples and how the sign would actually look.

Okay. Can we pull it up? I'd like the board to make some comments because we had some strict comments on this and I think they shouldn't come present again until they come. Yes. I don't think this thing would pass as presented so maybe we could say it's a tundra.

I thought the other one didn't match down. Oh, that's me. Sorry.

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.

She pulled up the camera. Oh, yes. That did? Yes.

All right. My first comment is, this isn't even work with the architecture. Yes. Yeah. And even... In consideration of all the other signs along that part of the post road and all the different businesses, it's just like. It's completely out of.

Well, it's also on historic district post road. Is there? Oh, is it? Yeah. If it's not exactly historic, it is the first property adjacent to it. Okay. So in keeping with.

Yes. It should work with the street. It happens to be confusing. Yes. There's a lot going on there.

Oh, my God. I'm pretty scared.

So maybe that would not have passed.

Well, the other comment, too, I'd say, too, the copy on it, right? Like the Liberty Yacht would need to be adjusted. I don't know what U Park Group even is, but probably if that's the owners of the building, I assume maybe they're making their mark. I don't know.

There's a lot going on. It needs to be clarified. Cacophony of information that just doesn't really... Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. It'll save money, too.

I don't know. And there's other signs on that road where it has, like...

Irma, do you know how many tenants are in that building?

Is it just the two?

I think just the two, but that's actually, I was surprised, I was wondering if you part of the group were like a sub-tenant of something, but it would be, yes, it needs to be made clear. I think that we need to send them a little recap to guide them towards something quite different, because they were just thinking about bringing samples, It goes beyond. I mean, they got some comments that it was not really in character, but I don't think they got it.

I will type up some notes to share with them. I wrote, not keeping the architecture of the building or the surrounding historic site found to be confusing. Copy-share would be effective of the tenants and their respective business names. Provide new layout, new sign type, new materials. All right.

Yep. I think you covered it. You could just say start over.

Maybe reference. Reference.

Pretty much. Signs.

Oh, reference signs. In the surrounding area. OK.

The sign that they had there before was great. Yeah. Charming. It's amazing. They just added another arm if they needed to.

Well, exactly. They're doing double hanging.

Or maybe you could do more to the sign. You could have like a, I don't know. You could embellish the sign.

That saves so much money. So we're going to have us reinventing the wheel. Let's just.

OK. So we are not going to produce any report on ARB 4026, but I will share that feedback on record. So if they return in October, you guys have a great starting place. Next up, ARB 412026. This is the Magnolia Bakery at 1020 Boston Post Road. In a viewpoint, it's BL 26140.

Oh, some of our favorite favorites.

The bar is so loud.

That's so true. That is very true.

I wasn't going to say that. Two last meetings. Let's just let them.

I did not realize you guys were coming. I'll let you guys take the floor first. We're glad you're here.

We're going to make sure you've got all the details. Yes. David Genovese from Baywater Post Road Associates II. This is a proposal for new signage for Magnolia Bakery, owned by a local resident who's opening here in Greenwich. The proposal is to add an awning along the lines of, but different than what is it, Jay McLaughlin and that new signage. This image shows the signage and the sign professionals here. So I think the idea is for one building sign and one blade sign. There was going to be a request for another building sign on the a piece of the side of the building facing what used to be the gas station facing Bank of America now. But I think we were able to successfully convince Magnolia that one was enough. And the bleed sign would cover that perpendicular view that they wanted to provide, you know, passersby or potential customers.

OK.

I guess I'll answer any technical questions.

Do you introduce yourself and your company and then just go over the materials and the sizing and spacing?

My name is Matt Haskell. I'm here from Artific Science. We were contracted to do the install for this. S1 is what you're looking at right now, which is the primary one. sign that was just described. It's 18.22 square feet with Magnolia Bakery name. It is an aluminum cabinet with an acrylic face and acrylic letters. It mimics kind of a carved sign that you I typically see it's consistent with the design for, there's an establishment that's next to it that has a very similar design. Moving through, there's a projecting blade sign. Stay on this one for me?

Yes. That's six foot, sorry, six foot ten inches? Yes. Okay. And does that, that seems huge, I'm not going to, and that, The door, the normal door width there is like 3 1⁄2 feet, the door's there? Three. Three? So is that an accurate depiction?

Yeah, this is, it's scaled.

Yeah, if it's a three-foot door and then 18-inch side lights, so that's another three feet. So that's six feet all the way across. Okay. I just feel like the font looks really weird.

Plus the trim. Plus the trim. Plus the trim. And the four-inch trim.

I'm pretty sure that door is wider than three feet, too.

It's a very non-typical door that we see. This is at least six feet over there, so it's the same width.

And then it's over, because there's a proud soldier course there, I believe, right?

On the brick.

On the brick? Yeah. Isn't there? So is it mounted to where it won't enough, where there's a gap? It's notched. It's notched around it, so it will lie flat to the side.

Is the size of the font typical of Magnolia Bakery in other locations?

Yes.

It seemed a little larger.

Here it's not so bad, but in the superimposed, it looks a little thicker. It just could be...

I feel like either the font needs to shrink and have more green space around it on the sign, or everything just needs to scale down a little bit.

The letters are nine inches. They compare to the...

Sometimes what happens with these illustrations is they take this as like the scale and then they slap it on something that you know is this is just for illustration purposes only whatever so it may look larger on this one but I would I would go off of page four with the measurements on there.

I'll tell you where the trick was. They put the volume, so everything you read is sticker with a shadow. That's what it is. Yeah. OK. That's what it is. But it does have volume, though. And so the letters have a black tone underneath it. I mean, is that the idea? Yeah, but if you go back to page four here with the stroke, like it is... You can see this little thickness is one inch. Yes, so it is thicker, but it's not as thick as what's shown. I think this is showing thicker than what you want there.

One inch is not going to mean that much. I mean, the plates, I don't know. It's a friend of yours.

If you look at the street scape, it looks kind of jarringly large.

That M is too big.

That is definitely not a good rendering. Because one thing, like, look at Go for them. Look at 10s pointing on the street. Obviously, there's some balancers. They relate to each other.

I think we're reacting to the render. If we go back to the rendering image, if that M is 9 and 3 quarters inches tall, if you count the bricks, each one of those bricks is 3 quarters an inch. 1, 2, 3, yeah.

Like 8. Uh-huh.

Maybe it just needs to be smaller.

Also that yellow, that color too stands out a lot more.

I like the sign. I like the awning. I like all of it. I think the only question is, are those letters a little bit too big? And I think if we had a clear rendering, or do you know the size of 1020 on the top here?

I don't remember. To be candid with you, when we built 1020, we did not really know what we were doing. We had divided a glass across the whole thing and we had the same exact store sign above every restaurant or store with Finley Green named after the architect of the building. That was his thing. It was just not a script. So we like the fact that this is involved. When Jay McLaughlin signed with us, we actually ripped the storefront out and replaced it with a clear glass so you could see what was on the wall.

Right, and we asked you to try to do it over for Gopher. We're like, can you do that saying to Gopher so it's in a bimber? And you're like, we'll come back to you. But it's not for that. We're circling that.

Honestly, if it was a clothing store, we probably would be doing that. But at Spangolia Bakery... They're going to set the display up, like the display for goods right behind that window. I think that's appropriate for a bakery.

It makes it more charming.

I think what we're reacting to is also this is a stacked sign. Yes. And the other ones are all, you know.

I don't mind it either, necessarily. I don't.

If we go off four, page four, and trust that that's what it will ultimately look like, I think we're okay.

Yeah, like that doesn't bother me.

I just think it's the rendering. I think it's the rendering. You're the expert.

Yeah. No, it is definitely sometimes with those renderings, they get a little dicey when they transpose them from this page to the next page or whatever. So this is the production drawing here. This is the more accurate representation of what you're going to get.

I have one question about the overall make of the sign. Did you consider doing a high-end pressure-treated wood? I ask because you have a very traditional building there, and you have wood signs elsewhere on it. And to do the acrylic... You have a classic sign, too. You're putting the established 1996, which we usually don't allow, but I think the board's going to be in favor of it because it looks cute. So why an acrylic, like a faux versus a...

It's cheaper. You might be able to answer that, but part of it is price, part of it is the longevity of it. It lasts longer outdoors. If something gets damaged on it, a lot of rain, snow, wind, sleet, etc. in this. know in this climate um it's easy to replace a letter if it gets damaged as opposed to if it the whole sign is damaged then you have to take it down you're gonna repair it so i think it ultimately comes down to pricing on it so i will say we were not involved in the zion we are just subcontract to install, hold permanent install. So if you're looking for it, I could go back to the sign company and ask.

I'd be curious what the price difference is. I think it'd be worth the investment if it's not something outrageous.

We would be super supportive of that.

Yeah.

I think it would give it a different texture, too.

And it would keep in tune with the architecture. And then if it's like carved in, I think you would .

Does that make sense, Matt? Yes.

We consider wood letter carved in signs to better fit the proposed style of sign in the building.

We'll ask them too about that.

But the size, yes, the size sounds like it looks good, the letter sizes. Is that a PDF?

Is that PDF to me? PDF to me and administrative certificate?

Yeah, it could be an administrative certificate, yeah. Okay. What that means is we would, you wouldn't have to come back to us, Matt, even though I can feel like you're already crushing on us. You would not have to return. You guys are phenomenal. So coming back, you could just submit the PDF through Lenny and Zoni. You could get an administrative certificate. Before we move to that though, can I look at your blade sign?

Yes.

So the blade sign. aluminum with vinyl lettering. So again, it's quite a tribute to the historical factor in the building. You know, it's not superimposing. It is ideally meant to capture the foot traffic that is on that road and, you know, Tastely done, etc. So, again, aluminum, vinyl faces, not illuminated.

That one cannot be wood. I mean, not all of that. That in wood would not work, right? I mean, you guys need the aluminum to do this. For both sides. To be able to do both sides, right? Right. But, I mean, if the other one gets changed to wood, this one stays as is. Am I correct? That's a good point.

Why couldn't you not do it in wood?

But don't we have it as a hanging? Kevin, you know a lot of the blade signs that we have, which would be a good one? Although they're not wood.

They're like a compress, but they're carved and painted to look like wood.

And so it's light and good for a blade sign. So maybe we could try that.

Just a dome. Do you like that? That's, like, fixed. That's, like, this is, like, posted in. Should we do it, like, let it hang like the other ones?

It's not as traditional that way.

It's better if it hangs.

Yeah, it's more traditional. It would be more appropriate.

Although it drives our guys crazy because they have to remove them all when the wind blows. Just a fun fact. Well, you know.

If you don't have them hanging tight. Short chain. Short chain. safety just to be careful yeah and that post is maybe a little chunky so there's no blades on there currently

Yes. In the alley? Yep. With no sign there, correct?

No sign, because the idea is if you're walking down the post road, you'll see that blade. OK. We just thought it was in the... Yeah.

But J. Maxx is on the other side of there.

J. McLaughlin's face is the municipal parking lot. Right, yeah. In the breezeway. Maybe we'll come back for one.

Oh, good.

So what would you sign about the material for the blade sign? What was the other one?

The composite material that they have that's carved. It's an historic-looking building, so that would be broken. I think two different materials is kind of weird.

Yeah, that's right. Does that make sense, Matt? Yeah.

OK, the composite? So usually it's HDU, I believe. It's like sign foam. It gets carved. And then you just attach a few chains.

One last thing about the mounting position of the awning compared to Jay McLaughlin's. Are they, is it deliberate that they're not the same angle, location and angle coming down? I don't know if they're matching distances. And is Jay McLaughlin keeping those, why do they need awnings out of curiosity?

They thought it was quaint and cute. You know, I think here, I know that the balance, the scale of balance, they wanted that. So dimensionally, it was a little bit different.

It's like close enough. Are you talking about the angle? It's the angle. Yeah, the angle. They're not the same place. So it's like close enough, but yet not. So it looks kind of odd.

It could be the render of this. No, but it would be probably, if you're going to make it different, make it different. Yeah. Or make it the same. You know? On the angle.

Different catches your eye more. So if you talk to a retail guru, they'll tell you variety is good.

So maybe make the angle different. It's just almost the same, but not. So it looks funny.

I, in general, I think when we zoom out like this, this is not an experience that you're going to have as a pedestrian. You're right. I agree. So I don't, I'm always like, you're not really going to notice the differences as much. You're right.

Anybody notice the new Crepe Choupette on it in signage? This is right. It looks so good.

I think we're so busy looking across the side of the other room saying, when is this complete, that we keep forgetting to look at Crepe Choupette. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I joke. I joke.

It was just a long time to get from here to getting it on the mountain. So, you know. It's a two-year project. I like this very much. I like the bed.

I like the bed.

I like the bed.

Okay, are we clear on this one? Are we good?

Yeah, for the awning to be at a different angle. I guess the awning's... I think we're... Okay, as presented? Yeah.

Okay, the scallop, the collar, okay.

Cute.

So Matt, you'll send new PDFs back through Planning and Zoning through here, and I'll issue an admin certificate based on the notes we have here tonight, which is the wood sign for above the door and faux wood. Yes. The composite material. Yes. And having that hanging. I guess that's it. Thank you. Perfect. Thanks. We really appreciate you being here. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Thank you. All right. You're welcome.

The next up, we're going to remain on Corbin Drive, and we're going to do Minulux. Thank you so much. Which is ARB number 42-2026. It is PL 26141 in viewpoint. That's right. Minnie Loose or Minnie Loose?

Minnie Loose. Minnie Loose. Yes.

I wonder which drawing I should do.

Most recent.

Most recent.

Not, yes. Not that one. Yes.

Just the second one. Right there. The Winx. That's one up. That's it. September 2nd.

Welcome, sir. Could you introduce yourself?

Hi, everybody. Nice to meet you. Updated drawing. I'm Kevin with Hungwell Signs. Tonight we're introducing signage for Mini Lux Nail Salon. We've presented these in the past for similar tenants here. We're going to do one inch deep painted aluminum and mount it right to the I-beam. similar to what we've talked about in the past for the other tenants there. Pretty straightforward. And this is what they've chosen for their blade sign. We'll go to brushed aluminum, two inches deep, with raised letters, aluminum letters as well. They like the stroke on the letters. It's in the gold. They get the exact color gold, whatever you like. So it would be three, a little depth to it, give it a little shadow. So lots of dimension to it. No lights? No lights. I think we're going to have lights underneath the canopy, so we're going to use the canopy lights to illuminate the lights on the street.

Right.

There are street lights in the plaza, so.

Yeah. OK. The wall sign was never mounted either, because there's pole lamps. Is that what we cited for the other building? For that building? Like, we don't light. These are not lit?

Yeah, those are not lit either.

So how are they lit at night?

Through street lighting, yeah. Through the street, through the hall. There's a hall light. There's a hall light. Yeah, that's what I meant. Okay. Right. Cool. Okay.

Weren't you proposing claims to the storefront? I think so.

That wasn't on TV. Can you go down? Can you scroll to the last one?

The last one I did is put window claims. This is what I wrote.

So this isn't the storefront. No, this is what they're kind of thinking of doing.

Right, this is what they've sent us to.

This is their inspiration of what they've done elsewhere.

So they wanted to bring it by you all. Oh, I see.

So they put it in black and white so we can read what it says, otherwise it's just all white. Correct. Just a second surface reverse cut vinyl right on the glass.

Is that going to happen, or is that just an idea?

This is what they would like to add to the windows. Pretty thin.

You can almost not see it. Well, there's only one door, I think.

There's only one door to the actual . Well, they have to be careful because they're putting stuff underneath like the hours of operation or something. So they're going to be tempted to push that one up a little bit and it's going to look weird. There's only one door.

Can you look at the actual ovation and I'll use one more?

Okay. So it's not exactly contextual. It's not going to look like that. Okay.

Favorable report? Yeah. Thank you so much.

Great.

Thanks for making it easy.

Do you have a law agenda? No, that's it.

The last item we have here is on Dean, which Lisa said is all approaching next October. Okay. Yep. All right, so that is our last update of the night. But if you do want to speak up for somebody else, we have to vote on it. No.

I was just asking you a question. We are a team.

We travel in threes. Yes. Because if we have to vote on it, it's something that we're actually supposed to discuss. You don't have to vote on it.

No. So just a future thing, I just want to like your feedback. And I forgot to bring the rendering. Do you know that little vest pocket park next to Gopher? Yes. That is technically owned by the company. building that Bank of America is in. And when we built 1020, that was a public easement for a little best pocket park. When we built 1020, we agreed with the gas station owner to renovate it at our expense, maintain it, because it used to be a best pocket park that no one would ever go into. And so it's been a great little pocket park in town for a while. Vinnie Duentis and Kathy Duentis, who technically own the Bank of America building, they would like to put a sign out there that says, you know, the Vincent Cathy Durandis Park. I proposed to them that we put a simple plaque on the inside wall of the drive-thru that you would only see if you were in the Best Pocket Park. But they would like to put like a realtor sign with like, you know, green sign, hanging sign, you know, with a hanging, you know, the VinCat Park, Vincent Cathy Park. I told them that I was pretty sure that would not be your

Absolutely not. Simple.

Simplified. I didn't want to misrepresent that to them, but I just wanted to run it by you. And we'll come back. Do we have to come back if it's on the inside, mounted to the wall?

I guess I could take a private space back there.

It's technically privately owned, but it is technically a public plaza.

Will other public plazas then want to be named?

Yeah. It's technically mounted on their property, on their building. Yeah, that's true.

That would be a sign on the building.

We're happy to come and bring it to you.

Yeah, you need to bring it to us.

I had a hunch about the hanging sign, but I didn't want to.

You could also do an engraving in the bricks on the ground on the coursework. Do something like that.

I think they're looking for something a little more meaty.

In one of the pictures earlier, the narrowed manor. Yeah, brass plaque. I did that plaque. That's what we're thinking about, the narrowed manor type of brass plaque in a smaller size.

Because if you go down the post road, the Brooks Brothers building, I think it says Dulcetti Properties on a little plaque. Yeah, right. But it's small.

On the building?

On the building. It's super small.

On the post road side?

Yeah, on the post road side. That's kind of like where we're going, but they want it on the post. See, it's really small.

I would maybe just run it by Plenty and Zoni, put it through the processes. Not A or B? I mean, if it's just like, it's just... If it's going to be a little plaque. If it's a plaque, you can just, yeah, and Harry, I can flag it if it's any more egregious or large or copy that seems questionable.

We'll send you a draft and you can react to it and tell us what you want.

Thanks for letting me ask that question.

And before I go, can I just say thank you for your service? Good luck. Have a good time. Have a good time. We didn't always agree with each other.

No. We had a big fight once.

We had a big fight once.

Did David just say that about my board on TV?

And I do get my whimsical Great Barrington signs that I wanted.

I know.

But I feel like you've been a great shepherd and steward of Darien's architectural history, honestly. And you've been fun to work with. And I just want to say, you make hard work fun. So thank you for everything.

Thanks, David. It's been fun working with you. You guys are a pleasure. I mean, guys, you guys make it easy. Everyone can be as... and have the vision you guys have.

And I think the outcome is going to be great because of your contributions too, so thanks.

When we walk past those more quaint blade signs, we'll have a smile.

Well, we have to be careful because we can't do anything, but if you ever want to host a farewell Liz party in the Corbin District, we can get you to help organize that. That's amazing.

You know, I definitely think I can get drunk at all your restaurants. And that is on record.

Are we going to go through the bottom discussion things, planning and zoning commission things that you had prepared?

Yes, we're going to go through those. POCD.

You guys don't want to stay?

I'll stay for a little bit.

POCD. POCD, right? Yeah.

And Kevin, you two, you're like an ultimate member. You're the most frequent. You're the most frequent visitor. Unless you have somewhere to go.

Kevin, you're welcome to go home.

I know you definitely want to go home. Kevin's like, me? Do I have to stay for this? You do not.

Kevin, go home. I can watch it on TV. Be free.

Can you please give us an update on the administrative certificates?

Yes, so I am waiting for a couple of submissions from the gentleman leaving the room right now. Ramanuji, countdown fitness, a few administrative certificates that are coming up with some minor tweaks. And Rone has not sent me their last, last version. Tokanak also had a couple of things they needed to send me. So I think that maybe because of the August gap or maybe the misunderstanding that they're going to do the revision to file the building permit that could be things so i will go after them uh just to say hey you know just please submit so that i can record uh record the the proper submission the dimensions and all that right okay Kevin knows we brought.

I do. I have updated . I wasn't sure whether it was a or email to you.

Right. So this is where there's this kind of ambivalence a little bit in terms of the process because it is almost automatic. But once you do the PDF and it's correct, but typically the PDF comes to me, it goes to the chairman, whomever that's going to be, to be looked at. to make sure that the comments were actually all reflected in the new submission or the revised submission. And if they are, then it gets approved as a certificate and then it's used for the building permit application. So I think that we've had a couple of applications that were so close that we told them, hey, you modify, you go directly to your billing permit. And that may have created, you know, some confusion.

Okay. Well, that's also good, too, for Lisa or Kate to hear. So Countdown Fitness, Rome, Tucker, Knock, Berries, Chopped, all pending. Do you guys want to send some emails to them to get it moving? OK. That'd be Countdown Fitness, right? Countdown Fitness, yeah. Countdown Fitness, Rome, Tucker, Knock, Berries, Chopped.

I'll send that to you if you want. Oh, that's all yours, Kevin?

You do a lot of business. You better go home and sleep while you're getting it. OK. All right, other business.

Okay. Thanks, Kevin. Thank you.

Thank you. Bye, Liz.

Bye, Kevin. POCD comments. Sorry, I want to make sure. Have you guys, I've attached these.

I read them. Did we submit these, or is this more than? We did not. Okay.

Since I'm walking away, I organized everything I heard from you guys over the last few months and years, actually. I've built that up and passed them through AI, organized them to make sure it's not repetitive, and that's what we got. The actual comments are due to Greer. If people, if anyone wants to make an argument and be part of the NC Planning and Zoning, comments are due next Wednesday, the 23rd. This document, someone has to send it.

The meeting is October 6th.

The meeting's October 6th. The document is due to be included. That means due by Wednesday to everybody.

Has anybody started working on that document here outside of you? I don't know. I don't think so. Sounds like it can be a Google document where you can share it. Just something else that I had noticed when I was looking through the original 2016 commercial guidelines is it actually goes through to say who should be leading and who's advising on lots of things versus planning and zoning versus AOE. And that is also not reflected in the new POCD, nor was it reflected in general policy. So something to flag.

Do you have that written down somewhere?

No, I was looking for the signage in the POCE while the monument sign for Residential Street was being proposed.

Because you could add that under the review process, right? ARD means the review process? Yep. And it was one of those bullets? Yep.

One thing that you noticed... Well, I mean, it totally makes sense. That was one of the things that sort of stood out to me in this summary of comments was... Like who's on first? Is it ARB? Is it PNZ? What is the what is the approval process? Pipeline, right? Yeah, kind of like a like a to me I like graphic things like who's where does it start? Who is the next checkpoint?

So I have an answer to that to help clarify historically on what that's been is in the past everyone said like, you know, go to ARB and Like, and make sure you've got that visual, like that stamp, and then come to plan and zoning. So plan and zoning can make sure, like, we're not going to see you until you've got ARB approval. The only time that hasn't worked is when we've, someone's come to us and spent multiple rounds with ARB and flushed out a concept, and then they've gone to P&Z, and they've been like, you can't do any of this. Like, you, this is not, this height is wrong, this is a flood zone, whatever reason, they didn't do their research, so all that work was scrapped. So the thought was, that's why it's kind of gotten a little crazy, because some people go to PNZ and are like, will this work? Do I ever go? And then they come back to the ARB. So that's, and that's where, again, you have to.

Is there sort of a, one of the things that's, again, also stood out to me, like, there needs to be some point of collaboration, right, before it becomes official.

I agree.

You know, whether it's, I mean, you, David did a lot of this, collaborated with different organizations or different committees. in town, before you even went out there in the public, you sought out the feeling. And also accommodated a lot of stuff to make sure you didn't have those roadblocks when you sat down for a formal presentation of any sort. So again, where in that pipeline of decision making would that collaboration happen? To me, it should be in the very, very beginning, before really anybody spends money on a lot of consultants We'll draw stuff up.

In your job, probably the same as I did, there is the master planning that comes first. Correct. With the massing of the building, that is a direct result of the zoning analysis. Correct. And that doesn't have any aesthetic shape, form. It's just what you can do. What you can do. Correct. That's a perfect P and Z discussion. Say, okay, we want to get 265 units. We know we're going to be able to fit them in this much with this much parking and this much height. But then what is it going to look like? Well, now you're going to go to the ARB. But I think that to your point, maybe there is a starting point for the larger project like Thorndahl and others. I think that that massing and master planning and maybe some of the master planning that didn't happen at Heights Crossing could have gone to planning and zoning and then ARB after. But just like, you know, kind of vet it out. Make sure that the project is going to work for everyone.

Okay. Am I correct when I've heard that there are informal reviews that you can come in early. Would it be possible to recommend that AR be included in any initial informal review? That's a great idea.

That's not a bad idea to have. But the problem with this is that then you, do you have an informal review with the entire board or do you have an informal review with, like a planning and zoning review informal could be with just Jeremy and maybe Steve and you know, So do you have an informal review with staff and the chairman of the ARB just to kind of weed it out? Yes, exactly, as it works for planning and zoning. So I think that's a good thing to try.

On an initial discussion for a larger project like that, I think it's very valuable. I mean, look at what happened with Heights Corner, right, where we came up with other ideas because the massing didn't like it. We gave them alternatives. if it's a PNZ and that's it, or a PNZ, if we have a meeting together beforehand, maybe PNZ would have been on board saying, okay, you can get the same look, feel, square footage, et cetera, by dividing it up into multiple structures.

So is it a meeting with staff and PNZ and ARV chairman at the same time? Yes. some collaboration between the two boards to get the ball rolling. And then it comes to full boards.

Does that go into the POCD, though? Or is that more of a internal, it's kind of an informal thing?

So I think it's worth referencing in the POCD about processes. Is there something along that?

Well, the fact that it doesn't quite work. Like cross-collaboration. It's made some issues.

I like the idea, though, because it sets up a collaborative dialogue between ARB and planning and zoning from the start, so hopefully can avoid any friction.

Yeah, and also just friction for the committees, but also friction for the applicant, right? Creating these struggles, right, between, them having to fix it because what they hear from us and then what they hear from PNC, that costs a lot of money. They've already done like 3D rendering and it's like, whoa, you need to. Yeah, and I mean I'm sitting on the other side, like I know how much that costs. And it's also demoralizing for the team on the owner side. Yeah. You keep being told, well, that's not quite right. Yeah. It should be helpful rather than... Precisely. Create the least amount of roadblocks.

Do you want an opinion from your developer? I think that makes sense. We were in a different situation from the beginning because actually Alex and I kind of worked on the original commercial design dialogue. The whole that early thing. that her early effort by dairy revitalization, we actually tried to kind of give people a bit of a roadmap on architectural elements.

And that has such buy-in by everybody.

It has buy-in, but I would venture to bet that 90% of developers working on products in dairy never see it.

Yeah.

I would bet a lot.

Based on the proposals we get here, it seems like no one ever sees it.

I bet that most people have no idea anything exists, even though it's actually on the P&Z website.

Right.

So that would be just a simple thing for Jeremy to make sure when someone says, I'm thinking about making an application, to really focus the architect on what those are. And then also for you guys, you know what you want your reach to be. But you might think about the scale of the project. Is there a minimum size above which you do that? I know that you want to do that for a 2,000 foot store. But maybe you do.

No, I think you have to give a little bit of leeway.

Some guidance on like where the, but everybody should look at the guidelines. They should. Everybody from a thousand foot building to a hundred thousand foot building.

So when you, when you fill out an app, obviously when you're putting an application in, it costs something, correct? Yeah.

There's a small fee.

Small fee. So can you build a copy of those guidelines into the fee where if they start filling an application, you have one of our. It's on the web. I think they basically have a copy. It's kind of in their face, and it's like they have no excuse.

The problem is it's too far down the line. If they're filing an application, they don't want to look.

I think if you ask Jeremy, he would tell you he gets calls early from people. I'm thinking about this use on this site, and I'm thinking about a building of this size. We've always done a pre-meeting. with Jeremy, but in Canada, I don't think we ever did a pre-meeting with you guys.

No, you came to us. You came through and ran through all your iterations. You came through us. You never came like, this is our final, we're thinking this.

I guess that's true. When we came back with Bruce Beinfeld after the Stern episode. Multiple times you came through.

But nothing informal. You came.

And we also do, they also do let you do a pre-hearing application, a pre-hearing meeting with P&Z, where you just go there and say, here's kind of my idea. And that's super helpful. And I think Jeremy encourages people to do that if they're working on something significant for the reasons you just described. It's really expensive to get the lawyer going, get the engineers and the architects.

So here's something that, if people aren't using the commercial design guidelines, and it's not clearly stated anywhere that you must use these design guidelines.

they should demonstrate that they're using the commercial design. By the way, that's a really good point. I don't think it's anywhere in the zoning regulations.

So that's zoning regulations. We're talking about POCB here.

Right, but the zoning regulations require that you look at the POCB. Yes, it does. But I don't think the zoning regulations say anything about the commercial design. That's correct.

So there's problem, the giant problem number one.

You might have just solved it.

I mean, giant problem number one. If it must be a prerequisite to begin your work. It's weird that you don't, because if you're hiring professionals, most of us know that that's what you go get from the town. Running guidelines and any design guidelines are basic. But there are people who don't hire professionals who have that first instinct or knowledge. But still, it should be thou shalt.

Put that as one of the add-ins to these regulations. That line should appear. It will require commercial guidelines. It's going to be commercial guidelines in both POCD and zoning. It should be written out of places.

Do you want to include a bullet when you're submitting for the ARB that you have read, like click that you have read?

I like the guidelines.

I acknowledge that you have read the guidelines.

Give them a quiz, like a five.

Yeah. Page seven. What is the third one?

No, but that'll, I mean, if they missed it, then they'll be like, oh my gosh, what is that?

So when they're applying to us for review? Yeah. Is that what you're asking? Yeah, an affirmation.

Yeah, an affirmation that you've read the guidelines when you're submitting it. And then you quiz them?

Do you know it's on page two? You get it in their head. It's just a reminder. It's not that special. It's a third page. That word unlocks.

I have two comments on that, to help you guys moving forward. One of those is, all these ideas are great. But the biggest thing you can have buy-in from the planning and zoning chairman

And if you don't, which has been the struggle I found with things going, they like to have their power circle. And it's been very clear that ARB is just their advisory. So that's a relationship that needs constant massaging for those willing to do that work, to be in those meetings and make sure that the PNC understands the value of ARB. Because clearly, it's there. It is the only tool we have in this entire town to regulate aesthetics. I can't say it enough, but if you don't speak our language, I think it gets lost quickly. So that's my one point there, is getting on board with the P&Z chair, wherever it is in the future. And then my other comment is if you scroll down to number three bullet, I have zoning regulation recommendations to you guys' point. Hervé and I helped draft these about almost two years ago now when we had our first large project through the V20 group. When they came to us, it was just a concept. We're like, this is it, done. We said like, this doesn't allow for a successful collaboration for the best building you can get. So we came up with this process, which is kind of what you guys are suggesting, which is like, and this is just one idea, but like conceptual designs, the first one, then schematic designs, these are the stages you would normally see. So maybe as part of that, you guys' suggestions about an informal meeting with XYZ people should be added to this. But this kind of thing, needs to go to the zoning regulations, unless it gets actually put, these are all great, none of this has actually gotten published in zoning regs, so that takes a second effort of you guys to push this through with Jeremy and PNZ and say this is important.

Should we review, before we submit this on 23rd, not a lot of time, but should we sit down with Jeremy and just say, hey, we've been having these conversations for a while, these are some real you know, pain points for us. And we're trying to work with you to make it successful.

I think to do that, I'd probably also ask you to join you. These are really important things to us. What can we do?

How can we make this better? We all want the same thing at the end of the day. We don't need to be in charge. We just want this to be successful.

It's not one board against another. We should be working together.

I do know that planning and zoning values very highly the work of A or B. So I think the communication, collaboration, working together earlier on in the process, I think will really smooth those relationships. But I like the idea of sitting down with Jeremy and reviewing what our comments are.

Yeah, I mean, he probably won't be that surprised, I don't think. But just to say, look, how do we break through some of these roadblocks that we have? And maybe it's us just thinking that they're roadblocks.

I think you should include Steve. I think he'd be very willing to have that meeting. So I think that would be the final collaboration piece. OK, so the 23rd is Wednesday. I'm out all the rest of this week. So by the way, the zoning regulation policy document could be under the POC common umbrella. You guys could bring all that together. It's up to you guys.

I think so.

What's wrong?

I think your The two documents that you have uploaded, I'm going to put on as a Google document that allows collaboration so everybody can read through it, add their comments, and everything.

It might need to be restructured, too, to where it's like we talked about zoning-specific, POCD-specific. I think, yeah, because this is a little bit of, this is not all POCD stuff. No, not at all. It overlaps.

I think in the Google doc, let's break it up into what can be submitted for the 23rd. and maybe what's really more of a good discussion, an informal discussion with Jeremy and Steve.

OK. I think that's awesome. OK. So good luck. Fight hard. You can do it. I look forward to .

If you see something you don't like, just send us a note. Text us.

Are you going to be part of the committee at all? Of what committee? The ARB? No. You're not going to be part of our meetings? No. What are you going to do?

I'm going to send you pictures on Tuesday nights, the third Tuesday of the month, of me drinking with some friends at a bar. Watching Chelsea and the guys. Yes.

I'll be live next year. By the way, being retired is the most wonderful thing. Don't get too comfortable.

The other point here we're talking about is an enforcement reporting system policy. The reason I brought this up is this is some of the work I do offline with Jervais. And we go around town. If there are things that have gone up their bill or signs that we see that are outside the reg, I try to report those to Jervais. It's not trying to be a police about it, but I do it so that the people who come with us and take the time to do applications and work here successfully and cooperate with us, it should be treated equally across everyone. We shouldn't be making special exceptions and letting some things go. Everyone should be working under the same regulations of policy. So I make an effort to report those things to Hervé to make sure we're seeing stuff. So I guess the reason I bring that up is Hervé, maybe you have a suggestion how you want the ARB to communicate that stuff. They're driving out there.

So the person who was spending every day at least an hour or so driving around and picking up a sign was Woody. Mr. Robert. And we find that it's almost inevitable to have that, if you don't do that, if you don't spend that time, it just creeps up on you. The person who's replaced Woody is Joe, Joe Gata, who's a bit, you know, he's younger and he's learning the trade. So he will be the one most likely to go pick up signs. I don't have enough time. But that's just the ones you're talking about. You do long signs.

I'm talking about all.

But the rest of the enforcement, Yeah, so now the thing that I've brought up to you not too long ago, because I had a pretty in-depth discussion with Jeremy about this. ARB, Norah's only Board of Appeal, have an enforcement possibility, enforcement protectability. I do, but those boards don't. So you can channel me towards enforcing, But you guys are just the messengers, right? But what happens with ARB, for example, I'm going to take the hot fit sign at Good Wife Center. They didn't go with what they said they were going to do. They used a yellow background. The signed letters are the same letters. They're the same size. Technically, their sign complies. It's in the right position. It's in the right size. It's just a different color, right? I, the ARB cannot enforce that, but then the problem I have with the enforcement of that is that technically their sign is compliant. So they switch the color on a new law, and on us, but there's no real enforcement possibility to say you have to take that sign down because the ARB said it should be white, not yellow. Because again, if the ARB is not a regulatory board, but only an advisory board, it doesn't have that bite.

But if we, but if we're, if they're submitting to us and we are approving it.

It is not an approval. That's the problem. It's a recommendation. The word approval does not exist. It's a recommendation or a report. A favorable report. That's right. That's true. It's not an approval. The approval is at Planning and Zoning Commission, but not at ARB. And that's one of the things that is.

But doesn't the Planning and Zoning Commission require the favorable report from us?

So that's kind of the process that I was thinking about, too. We make a recommendation, we make a favorable report, or we ask for certain things at a certificate of approval. Then it becomes part of the planning and zoning approval. Planning and zoning will take what we have recommended.

Not all signs. They don't look at signs whatsoever, the Planning and Zoning Commission. So then that's a .

Well, they don't look at it, but it becomes part of their certificate of approval. Imagine that since we don't have that direct authority, we are, to your point Liz, we're advisory to planning and zoning. Part of our advisement is sign approval, which becomes part of the P&Z approval package. So enforcement would then fall under planning and zoning. Yeah.

And so then you can enforce it because it fell into their approval.

So it would have to be written as a violation somehow and then be rated or be accepted as such by planning and zoning commission. If something is not what it's supposed to be. Based on their approval. Yeah, but then the thing is they're not involved. They're not really approved. They're not involved at all. Once it comes here and it comes to me, if it's approved, like favorable report. Then it goes back to zoning, right? It comes to me for zoning permit.

But you're only showing a permit based on information, including the colors.

Well, that's the thing. It's like, yeah, I think in this case they may have, switched, did a little switcheroo after approval or something or whatever.

It's really like... Can we talk to Jeremy about it? Because it seems to me that it should fall under zoning enforcement. And some discretion certainly could be made by either the administrative staff or I would think to say, all right, the color's off a little bit. but there could be something far more egregious. How do you handle, how does zoning handle when an applicant has done something that was not approved in the zoning? To me, it would be in the same category.

Yeah. So we have cease and desist type orders. We don't have much in terms of penalties in terms of violation. We can write a violation letter and people will ignore it. So I think the fines and penalties are the one thing that's progressing. And we haven't really used it all that much. But we've been telling people. And that's been enough to say, hey, we have a fine and penalty thing in place. So if you don't change your thing. But I find it's kind of a cumbersome, slow process.

But if we don't bring this to their attention...

Right. Well, no, we do. We have. But it's...

So, I mean... But... So then you've got to go to the next step. I know. Right? I know.

Well, I think what you guys... If this is important to you, I think more than just here today, I think you guys need to put in a larger audience. You need to go to Jeremy and to the Selectmen and everyone who's in that conversation in support of... Hermann understands the work, it seems like, but I think we need a larger support from higher.

How much does it generally happen? Have you seen a lot of things that pop up that weren't put through the regular steps? How many times does somebody change colors? How big of a problem is this and do you have to get that tough?

I shall confirm nor deny. There are some cases, and I'm not going to bring them up on camera, but there are some cases where things were not done correctly and have been trying to be rectified and it's not successful in rectification, even though there's been numerous letters and attempts. But it's not the majority. There's only a handful of people who decide that they don't care, don't respect, and decide that they do what they want. And it doesn't matter. Entitled ones. Right. And some of it goes without a need for a permit itself. So you get window treatments that are just off and are not what they're supposed to be. And you just don't really have a permit for that.

What is the real reason that the ARB doesn't have more?

more regulation, like control. I would argue that planning and zoning doesn't. So in Greenwich, if ARB says no, planning and zoning, or you change something, planning and zoning will not give you a certificate of occupancy. So if you can't get a CO because you did your planning plan not to like the ARC or whatever they agreed to, that's a big deal. But our planning and zoning is unwilling to hold up certificates of occupation just because the colors were wrong. So it's not easy. But do we know why?

I think your question is why. Yeah, right. And going back to, let's have that conversation with Steve and Jeremy and say, look, here are some pain points and here are some specific instances where we had this happen. We just want to understand why this happens and don't we all want to make this a better place together.

I mean, it just doesn't... Can't you hold up, for example, if it's what I'm thinking, can't you hold up a future permit until they have all of their violations rectified?

So that section in the code is missing in the IR name. I had that in my code in Cambridge, Maryland, where there was a very specific paragraph that said if there's anything any violation or any open permit that is not satisfied on a parcel, on a property, there could not be any other approval, not even like a review.

That is a very powerful tool because you can't just keep on going.

We also had a very nice paragraph that said that if you were doing something before having a permit, even if it's compliant, you were going to pay double the fees in your permit application. You've already done it. That's our zoning rights. That's our zoning rights. That's not our POC. I know, so it's, but for ARB, yeah. So it's a, Scarsdale's ARB, I think if I'm correct, because I presented in front of them with Brad Perkins when we did a big retirement home, they are a total block. If you don't go through ARB, you don't go any further. So that's it.

There are a lot of places that are like that.

I think we're very mushy when it comes to that.

I think personally that's where you should start for larger projects. The onus is on the architect, the developer, the engineer to make sure it adheres to the planning and zoning regs. Somebody brought that up before where hopefully they don't get too far down the process and spend all this money. come to ARB, get it blessed approved, we like the way it looks, and then go to zoning. I think that's the better workflow.

My reflection on all this is that we really as a town have not had this kind of development ever. And in the last 10 years, we've had to face a lot of stuff that places like Scarsdale and Greenwich have been dealing with, and other large cities have been dealing with for a while, so they're more sophisticated in understanding the that pipeline of approval. And we just haven't really sat down with all the commissions together to say, okay, if we continue to develop our town and we still want to maintain our town the way at least this committee has wanted to, there has to be dialogue about process and approvals. We're not trying to be a power over anybody, we're just wanting

be collaborative enough. I would argue that even with the 2016 POCD, it explicitly states that ARB is in charge, should be in charge of the character of all the buildings. And it said there, it's been taken out, but it was never even enforced in the first place. So I don't know.

But at least we have to get it back in there and then go like the next step. We can't go backwards. We're going backwards.

This POCD has a very different feel.

Very different. It's written very differently than the 16 edition. Yes. Shockingly so. It almost feels like the 2016 should have come now, and the 2026 was what we've been operating off of for over the last 10 years. It's very general.

Yes. Which will allow for a lot that can fall through the cracks and things that won't look good, and overdevelopment in places we didn't want it.

I do have under zoning regulation updates for our POCD, I do have it in here, clarify whether and how ARB recommendations may become enforceable conditions through P&Z stipulations. So that's a start and you guys can flush that out further. It's important. But there are other stuff though, just to end cap on the enforcement around town and just like noticing stuff. Is it helpful that people see stuff if they contact you, Herve? Do you value those emails, or is that... No, I do. If someone's driving around, they should email you and say, you know, I saw this, just would first look up, you know. You know, one example of that, too, is I think I saw a new landscape, like a new fence and stone wall at, next to Grove Street, in that Dulcetty property where we looked for those townhouses.

The one with the white house?

Yeah, they've done a ton of site work there. Yeah, I saw them doing, I haven't even seen it finished. I believe that's a commercial zone here.

I don't know how that hasn't come through. It's good to have eyes in the town because we can't be everywhere. And then, you know, there's a lot of paperwork to be done in an office. So you really are not driving around. And Jeremy and I always say, when you go out for one thing, you come back, you have three more problems. Yeah, yeah. You see three or four more different things that you were not expecting to see. And then you have to check these people. Do they have an apartment? You know, like when you see our contractor, you're like, Wait a minute, I don't have a permit for this address or your address. But you do, it is very helpful.

So when we do reach out?

It's very helpful. We have eyes around the town and then we go check whatever we can. It's not necessarily... The enforcement doesn't happen immediately because... It takes a little while, but it happens.

So they built a stone wall and a fence on the property? Have you seen that?

Joe's saying it's just a stone wall.

It's a stone retaining wall. They redid the steps coming down.

Oh, but that was already there. The steps were there.

Now it's not concrete. It's beautiful stone with bluestone. Oh, that's nice. The split rail fence is actually nice. They did it so people would stop parking on the grass.

But technically, though, that's supposed to have come through. Those are site updates. And that is a commercial property that comes to us. Right? Do they see that as improvement as is?

Like, in kind? They could be seeing it as an improvement in kind. And that probably wouldn't require... Well, it's kind of like the Countdown Fitness building.

That whole building had that, right? They stripped the facade of that, but that floor wood that we were noticing, right? Oh, right. We still haven't seen that whole...

They didn't approach anyone.

Yeah. And that was done before I even had a chance to I get it. Anyways, okay. So, that's that. I patched my Chairman Resignation Letter, if you guys want to read it. I sent it to you guys.

Can we reject it?

Fortunately, no. It has been approved by Linda. And a lot of the big takeaways, I want to encourage you guys to make sure you work on getting transparency from your leaders, from planning and zoning leaders, and from your first-level leaders. I think it's really important. I think we've lost that. We've come to this area, this idea of collaboration is awesome, but collaboration's got to be with a larger group of people, right? It's gotten to the smaller, almost to the point where collaboration has become more of a closed-door situation. And, you know, things get... From the time you started to now. Yeah, and I think if things get too resolved in that sort of situation, you kind of miss these people and you go too far down the road. So I think your ideas are great, but make sure you guys stay on, not just fitting zoning, but Also, if the selectman is involved, he seems to really be involved in planning and zoning now. That's a newer perspective for a selectman to take. Jamie did it for 10 years. She was amazing at it. Jamie never was in any, I mean, she only came to support, and I never remember you speaking a lot about planning and zoning.

There were always discussions behind the scenes. It was collaborative. I certainly don't want to open any kind of can of worms, but I understand that there may be changes to the way town government operates. And I don't know when that's coming. I think it's been introduced through the Rules Committee of the RTM. And I have no idea what's part of that. I don't know if zoning or ARB would be recommendations for either of those boards are going to be made. I don't know if Herve knows anything about that.

Do you know what kind of rules they are looking at?

I don't. It could be to help try and streamline, make government more efficient. I think it's a project out of the first selectman's office. I just would hope that we would be told if there's anything relating to zoning or ARB that might be coming forth that we should know about. We could ask it if we get a meeting with Jeremy.

Yeah, I feel like this first segment's been very involved and interested in our process, but he's very unfamiliar with our process and unfamiliar with the architect in general. So I think there's a big training curve to be there. So I think we'll have to work to make sure you guys stay in front of him.

Is that something where we invite him to our meetings? He's been.

Was that just one of his first meetings? Yeah. That was his first meeting that he came to? Oh, yeah. Okay.

The one with the vicarious, yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. He came. He did. He watched. And then watched witness. And then the behavior after that became worse. And because he was here, the behavior from certain applicants, like that behavior was unfixed. It became worse.

It was... Oh, so he did... He... I'm not sure.

I'm not sure. But I know that there was no, no one stepped up and said out loud, this is unacceptable. This is a board. We should be supporting this board. And that kind of language doesn't belong here ever again. Speak that way again, you may not, you don't do work in this town. That kind of proud stance wasn't taken. But the behavior was witnessed and it's continued and it's gotten worse.

I mean, I received a text message afterwards. that i didn't address that just basically shut down this entire board yeah from one of the applicants and i've known this person for 25 years and i basically i just i didn't even respond back like it's wait from that meeting you got a text yeah so i said that this board was not worth It's pretty much basically saying it's a bunch of bored housewives at home. That type. My goal is to be a bored housewife. Where's your apron? I like to cook.

a chartered advisory board to the Planning and Zoning Commission. There's a process that we all went through to be sitting here at the table. Everyone's skilled. Whether people realize it or not, but everywhere they look in the town of Darien, the fingerprints of ARB are here that we've Your board has done an amazing job of directing the character of this town. So my great hope is that all the powers that be understand the importance of the role that we play and will embrace better collaboration, coordination, transparency.

It will take an effort. Yes. Yes. It will take an effort. Not just showing up on a third Tuesday. You guys are going to have to stay on these guys if it's important to you all. I would like to nominate a new interim chair and vice chair. I would like to, I need a second and a third. I'd like to nominate Anya as our interim chair, and I'd like to nominate- I second Anya. You second? Okay. Can I have a third? Yes. Beautiful. Take Christine as a third there. And then I'd like to also nominate Joe as our new vice chair. Still seconded. Second. Third. Okay. Can we take a vote on that? Can we officially take a vote on that so these guys can move forward? Are you guys comfortable doing that? Okay, all in favor of Ana being our new interim vice chair through the end of the year? Interim chair. Interim chair. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye as well. Okay, that's a unanimous vote there for that. And all in favor of Joe being our new vice chair? Aye. Aye. Aye. Me as well. Okay, beautiful. Thank you guys so much for stepping up to the plate. I know you've been my wingman for a long time. You've done an awesome job. I really appreciate you. You can do this in your sleep. And Joe, I appreciate you stepping up. Joe's our newest member to the board. You and Jamie, Joe. And Joe's ready for the fight. He's ready for you. He's here. He's present. Joe cancels trip trips all the time to come to ARB meetings. So he's like, I'm out of town then. He's like, I'm going to India. I'm like, no you're not. We've got a meeting. So he has such a commitment to it. You guys will be great leaders. I don't know. I worked for 10 years to find a board of experts. I found all of you in my own way. We met offline. I'm so proud of each of you. You all bring a specific skill set that makes this board so dynamic and just powerful. So when people question any other thing that comes out of this board, I say, are you out of your goddamn mind? Do you understand who's sitting on that table? free advice from some of the top experts in Fairfield County. So I'm just proud of you guys, hope you guys continue to work, and it'll be nice to watch it and hear about it from the sidelines.

You assembled it, so without that leadership, we would not have been able to work. So before Anya opens the champagne, there is a proclamation that has been written by John Zagroski and myself, for Liz. So since John has out at a dinner engagement that he couldn't come back, we waited, I was waiting to see with a text if he's gonna make it. He hasn't texted me. So I will read this proclamation to honor Liz. Town of Darien proclamation honoring Elizabeth Liz Geiger. Whereas Elizabeth Liz Geiger has served on the Darien Architectural Review Board since June 1st, 2015, most recently as its chair, devoting more than a decade to our community. And, whereas Liz has led with integrity and inspiration, encouraging high standard of design and a thoughtful approach to the appearance and character of Darien's building and streetscape. And, whereas her leadership has helped guide the board's work during the transformation of downtown Darien and Norton Heights contributing to an attractive, welcoming town center and a more walkable community. And, whereas Liz has brought energy, enthusiasm, and joy to this work, helping to move projects forward while encouraging all involved to see the possibility of thoughtful design. And, whereas a positive disposition and constructive approach has helped resolve challenging design issues, bringing people together in pursuit of solution that serves the town well. Whereas Liz's careful attention to detail has enhanced many of the design elements that residents encounter every day, enriching the surroundings in which our community lives, works, and gathers. And, whereas her good taste, sound judgment, and care for Darien have made a lasting contribution to the town's beauty and character, leaving a legacy that will be enjoyed for years to come. Now, therefore, I, Herve Hammond, on behalf of John Zagrodski, First Selectman of the Town of Darien, extend the town's heartfelt appreciation to Elizabeth Liz Geiger for her many years of service and outstanding leadership, and invite her family and friends her colleague of the Architectural Review Board, and the citizen of Dariens to join us in thanking her for the time, talent, and care she has so generously devoted to our community. Presented this 15th day of September, 2026. Kick her out!

Kick her out! That is beautiful. That is so nice. I will write Mr. Zagorski and the Slackmen an email tomorrow for that. That is so generous of them.

Wonderful.

Okay, we will wrap up. Minutes approval for July by Ms. Lipotinsky. All in favor of approving?

Aye. I give them for you to sign.

Yep, they're signed. All right, those minutes are approved. It is 8.36 p.m. I am going to adjourn this meeting. Yay! Congratulations!