Board of Zoning Appeals - Regular Meeting

I aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Let the minister reflect that all members of the board are present. At this time, uh, the members have a chance to read the minutes of the last meeting. I would entertain a motion to approve if there are no changes. I move. We have a motion to approve them. I hear a second. I second. Okay. All in favor signify by saying I. I.

Opposed. Okay. The first item of business tonight is the Hawkeye Storage site plan review.

Did you do the minutes? What did I Okay, guys. We have Dale Cruz. Uh he's the engineer on this project and he is going to come up and present his project. Good. Yes. This is both the preliminary and the final. Yes. To be heard together. It is a public hearing. The preliminary is public, but he's filing both because he's ready for both. Well, we think [snorts]

I just have I'm just curious why why are they combined? We've always done it like that. They can file paying attention. Yeah, they've always said it. If they're not ready to when they do when they file a project, if they don't have 100% complete, they can ask for preliminary and they come back later for final. But site plans most generally are always ready unless it's a bigger project and it's going to be a phased project. In that case, then you would hear the preliminary and then future that could be. Yes. Yeah,

good evening. Dale Cruz, Cruz Consulting, 7384 Business Center Drive in Avon and I'm here this evening on behalf of Dwayne Lane. He's with me tonight. He's in the back row as hopefully not to speak and uh that'll be my job and hopefully he won't have to speak. So, we'll see. Uh this project property was in front of this board about three years ago in 2022 and we got the western portion which is over kind of road 300 east across from uh A4 lumber. We we got this portion approved. Dwayne's built most of this out um now already. And so today, this evening, we're here to ask.

Are you wanting to advance? There you go. I was trying to go back to that area. Will it blow that up? This one.

There we go. So, this is the part that's basically developed now. And so, the whole thing is approximately 50 acres. This was about the western about onethird of the property. What we're going to look at tonight is the eastern twothirds of the property. And so from Dwayne's perspective, uh Dwayne started in this business 12 years ago, which when I started with him in this self- storage adventure 12 years ago, we were talking about this the other day, yesterday actually. I asked him, I said, "When did you start this? Was it about five years ago?" He said, "No, that was 12 years ago." So, time flies. But what Dwayne's learned in 12 years is that a lot of people had a lot of things to store, Dwayne's now has over a thousand units, has 14 locations, and they're spread out into two counties. So what started out as a I wonder if this will work, I hope this works, has turned into a business model that does work and a business model that has proven to be a need that these communities need. And when Danville, especially with all the housing that has been approved in the last few years, the need for this style of product is it's here. And so Dwayne's filling it and this is just another step. So this 2/3 over here is what we're looking at. And if we could go to the next page. So this is the already developed piece. This is the proposal for the eastern 2/3. There's a little different twist here um in that the these there's 22 buildings. These 22 buildings right here starting with these three and then all of these down here. These are intended to be marketed towards uh more like flex space. The majority of these buildings are 9600 square feet. And these things

would be built a little differently than a normal self storage building would be. They could be built so that a a tenant could take all 9600 square feet which is what Dwayne would really hope. or we can take it down to as little as 1,200 square f feet and they're so that's why we call them flex space because the size that a person would need or want to rent is flexible and they'll have an overhead door and a man door and there's there's 22 of those buildings right here represent about 184,000 square feet of that style building. There's a project on um I don't know if you all are familiar with it, but there's a project on Ronald Reagan. It is about a half a mile south of County Road 100 South on the east side of the Ronald Reagan as you go towards the airport. It's called Rise and it's a very similar uh product and they have been successful in Avon doing something very similar similar to similar to these buildings right here. This building right here will be the office building. And in that building right there, there'll be room to house a forklift. That could be a community forklift. You sign up sign up to print forklift for a day or an hour and you can use the forklift in one of these spaces right here to unload whatever you got on your truck that you can't get off manually. There'll also be a conference room in this in this office space that uh a person could rent the a conference room for a day or an hour if they need to have a meeting to um to sell whatever it is their product is, whatever business they run. If they need to have space to have a meeting in a conference room, there'll be a conference room in here for that also. And then Dwayne will have a spot in here for his own office for his people that run the manage place. And then these buildings uh these this row of buildings in north will be more trai they'll be the more traditional self storage spaces like what Dwayne's done up all all along. So that's what that's what these will be.

They'll be 12 of those buildings about 73,000 square feet of those storage spaces there. This area right here will be outdoor parking for RVs and boats and that kind of thing. This is about 6 and a half acres right here. That's what that will be. These are the two detention ponds. They take up about uh about two and a half acres between the two of those. Those detention ponds take up about two and a half acres. They're ginormous. But our drainage ordens have changed so much in the last 10 years that it has made the size requirement of these detention ponds blow up. Uh because our outlet rate is so small. This this whole entire all of this approximately 30 acres drains to those two ponds. They're connected by a pipe right there. The primary outlet goes right through here through a 6 inch pipe. The entire site, it's 30 acres through a 6 in right there primary, which makes these big. It's by the ordinance. Banning has reviewed the plans and has approved them. So, that's why they're why they're so big. This this area right here, this currently is a residential house home that Dwayne just has on rent. He just rents it. Uh it's a rental home right now. Was part of the property when he bought it. He hasn't decided what use is going to be on that particular piece right there. Could be an office building. We don't know yet. But for now and until he decides what he wants to do with that particular piece, this thing will remain as the as a residential residential home, a rental. [snorts] Um, let's go to the next site plan. Same thing. So, this those are generally the grading plans. Kind of covered that already. The site drains. This is the parking area in the back. It all of it drains to the east and please.

And then it drains through to the front into these ponds and out right there. Oh, I also should say our driveway. Our driveway comes in. We got one entrance and it opposes or it's right across the street from the entrance that goes into the neighborhood on the other side of the road. There's Grant Park and Parkwood and those drives are right across from one another. Okay. So, building design. So, this is also something that's new uh for doing this. Your ordinance was adopted in February of 24 requires a fairly hefty um architectural requirement. And this facade right here, that facade right there will go on three buildings. Can you pull that back down, please? So, that facade right there, keep them will go on the front. That one that we were just looking at is the front of that office. It's right here. And then that facade will also go on the front of this building and it'll go in front of this building. Those three buildings will get that facade. It's almost a $300,000 upgrade above what the ordinance would have required two years ago. So it's a big deal. And uh but that's what that's what we're that's what we're proposing. This is stone. This full column, half column, half column, and then a rim around the bottom is stone. These are this is these are awnings. They're metal. Um they're made out of metal. And then we got hard plank that's in those spaces, right? There got doors, two doors, and those are windows. [snorts] The only difference between the office, this is the office. The only difference between the office and the other two buildings is it won't say Hawkins Storage. There won't be a sign on the other two buildings. They'll look just like this, but they won't have that sign in there. And then the other buildings that face uh that face east county road 400 will be they'll look like this. These those buildings are more they more look like

from the road they more look like self storage buildings. And so they get stone at the bottom. They get metal siding and they get an eyebrow. So an eyebrow will go pull this up. This is a building right there. So this is a building that's already been built. It gets [snorts] the stone. So that building that was proposed here will look just like this except the stone will be here and then across this right here we put in a little enhancement on that which is that right there it's that little eyebrow just to break up this I'm just a little bit there you go just to break up this this little bit of right there we put this eyebrow across that right there and then go back down to the side plane so we can see the sideline that building front goes on this building, basically all of the other buildings. So, it goes on this building, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, and I think there's one more up there. Right. Right there. That facade goes on all of those buildings. And I think it's also important to note that the this office building, um, sorry, right there. This office building, sorry about that.

This these these buildings right here are approximately 450 ft from the road. So, they are a good distance from the road. their football field in the third uh off from from the county road. These these are even further. Um and that's because this where these detention ponds wanted to be. Um this because that's where the it's where the draw in the field was. It's where the low it's where the low land in the field is. That's where it already drains now. So that's where these needed to be or wanted to be which pushed the buildings back and gets them 400 feet off the road. So, they're going to be not so easy to be seen from the road, but these three will certainly catch your eye. And these will look appealing from the road as well. Okay, we can go up back to this building now. So, those those are what all of our buildings will will look like. And then I don't remember. Oh, lighting plan. So, the lighting plan's in compliance. The lighting plan is just typical. There are no bolts there. All of the lights are on the face of the building. These little bubbles right there are where the lights will be. That's the light dispersion pattern that the lighting manufacturer says where the lights will shine. There are no no lights on the outside facing the railroad or facing north towards 36. And there are no lights on the south side facing my property. And these lights, like I said before, these lights will be about 450 ft from the road. So I think I think our lighting plan is good and it is in compliance. Uh next. Yeah. So, this one's kind of cool. It's a little hard to see, I guess. But this this actually is the site looking down on it uh at night with the way the lights will shine. That's the north row of building. So, there's no light in the back. South row of building, so there's no light to the south. By the time you get out into the pond, you essentially there's no light beyond out into the pond. So, this is this actually is a better picture when it's in your email. Didn't bank

very well for for this slide. And this is just a a different view of the that same same thing. Then that right there is our light fixture. It's all uh shielded or face down. The light is not pointed out. It's facing the ground. And so I think we're good on our lighting plan, landscaping plan, which is always a question. It's always a hot button. U so so we got our landscaping plan. Do you guys have a good a decent landscaping plan in your in your packet that you have were able to see? It looks just you. Okay. Because I brought some because landscaping is usually important. So, I brought some if you want one. I brought brought some of it.

Yeah. I believe it said that the plantings have not been designated yet. Um, yeah, I think they have. Thank you. They've been designated. The size is not on there of the plants. They're identified the type of planting, but they the size is not shown on the plant.

Okay. Okay. So out along the road, uh, so a detention pond needs a burm out here. And so the burm actually going to serve two purposes. It's going to serve the detention pond to make the pond, but it's also going to be the burm of the trees. The trees will be planted. Spruce trees, arbitis, some boulders, lilacs, white vines, red buds, spruce, maples. There's a variety of trees there I think that will make this this front landscape look very nice. And then on the sides we didn't propose any any on the sides or this side mainly because if you go to the next picture so so I went on to um Googleers have some street views. This was taken in August of this year. This is looking This is in the uh eastbound lane, but it's looking towards the apartments. They're only on the north side of 36. This is Settlers Run Apartments, and you can't even see Settlers Run Apartments from the highway. So those there those people certainly are not going to see anything coming our direction. So if you turn if you go to the next slide, I took one. So this one. Okay. So, this one is this is in that same lane, but this is looking uh east towards Wendy's, which isn't Wendy's anymore, but down towards Presley. And that house that's on Dwayne's property is right. I think that's one. I think that might be the utility pool right there. That house is right is back in there. Clearly shielded very well from 36. That's one. Yep. This is looking pretty much due south into the field. You can't see anything through that field. And then the next one. So this one is

actually in 36 looking into where the existing facility is. So this is the existing facility right there. And you you can't see anything. Um the next one [clears throat] this one. So this is now the south property line. So this is actually on County Road 400 East. This is Mike Eden's ground. So, this is looking north uh northwesterly and Wayne's property is behind that row of trees right there. So, looking in, you can't see the other property. The other building sites are back there. The existing facilities back there clearly not visible. And I forgot one more. I think this is the last one. Yeah. And then so this is basically looking from the entrance into the neighborhood that's on the other side of the road into Grand Park. This is basically looking southwest from that driveway or that road that goes into the neighborhood looking southwest towards Mike's Vikings property. This is Dwayne's Vikings is on the other side of that tree row. And that tree row we're not proposing to do anything. It's proposed to stay like it is. And same thing on the uh here same thing up here on the on the north side along the 36. So we feel like we have a good handle on the landscaping plan also with what we're proposing on the road and what there is already on the north and what there is already on the south and project is to the west essentially it's going to it look like one big project when this is all when this is all done. So uh I guess if we go if we talk about the staff letter um the staff letter the first one is we've already gone through just how what kind of buildings we have here. The second one is utilities. So the only building that gets utilities is the office building. It gets a water service. There's two restrooms in that building. So there's two restrooms. Get water and it gets sewer. Sewer comes from West Central. I have an approval

letter from West Central. We're working through citizens to get our uh water our water supply. Now public streets. We need to go back probably to

[snorts] That probably work right there if you blow that up. So when the neighborhood across the street was developed, they had Can we see the whole the whole? Yeah, there you go.

There. So when this neighborhood across the street was developed, they purchased right away from this land owner. And it starts it starts right about there, bumps out where their passing blister is, and then it comes back in over here. And then so there's a section of land at the south end of Dwayne's property and a section of land at the north end of Dwayne's property that wasn't actually dedicated as driveway. So we're going to do that. That's one of the staff's comments was to do that. And also incidentally, we made the commitment to doing it at the far west end on 300 and we didn't do it. So we're g that will be part of this also and just slip through the cracks. So we'll dedicate the rightway down here when we dedicate the [clears throat] rideway. Uh [snorts] so that's what the public streets is. Storm water um storm water banning has uh accepted our plan. Architectural requirements we talked about that landscaping uh sidewalk trail. So the staff is recommending or desiring us to put a trail in across the frontage here. We request a waiver from that requirement. Um because the sidewalk, this is the railroad right here. And if you go to the very bottom, that very last slide. Here we go. So right here is Dwayne's property. Sorry. Right here. It's Dwayne's property. Railroad's here. 36 is here. There's no no nothing sort of nothing like a a pedestrian crossing across the railroad 36. And then this is County Road 400 that goes up to Main Street. There's not one sidewalk from Main Street all the way down to 36. And then we come across 36 over to where Dwayne's property is. This neighborhood right here, they ran

sidewalks out to County Road 400, but they didn't run them up and down 400. So our contention is our position is that it's just that place sidewalk and we'd like relief from the requirement. It just does make sense in our opinion to put a walk here that goes to the railroad that goes to a side that goes to a road that doesn't have on the other side of the road. So our our position is we would like to not have that requirement and we respectfully request a waiver that requirement and uh lighting talk about lighting. Lighting plan is acceptable signage uh what everybody decides to do with signage get permits for and and then the comments about fence. And the last one is fence and an oxbox. It'll be a security fence. So be a vinyl coated black chain fence like it's good on all these other properties and box on it so the fire department can get in get in. Hopefully they don't but if they do they'll be out and that's about it. That's all I have but I'd be happy to answer questions. So, I'll go first because I've been writing down some notes. I have a comment to start off with and this really just goes to knowing Dwayne working with Dale. Um, the architectural drawings look great and Lisa, I haven't had a chance to talk to you about this, but I'm sure this meets our requirements and you're satisfied with the way the buildings look.

Yeah, technically it doesn't 100% meet it. Okay. But I think it's an acceptable, but the plan commission has to accept it as well. For the most part, it does need it. Um, for this type of a facility, um, in my opinion, it is it is acceptable.

And I've seen the products that he does. They look phenomenal. He takes care of his properties. They don't get rain down. Just just a couple more comments, but I will come back to which relates to the question is, you know, if we clear any trees, that may change that architectural requirement. If we're not planning to remove any trees, I hate to see nice buildings get covered up with trees that you can't you can't even see this building because the buildings look great. But that's just a comment. The other thing is I think this project is perfect for the location. Um, it doesn't put a burden on our utilities. It doesn't put a burden on the schools. All it really does is fund the storm water department and the tax dollars. So, just want to get that clear that that I'm a fan of this product and I know I've told everybody I like these kind of things because they don't impact our taxpaying citizens at all other than if you just have a problem with a lot of storage units. U there are a lot but there is a need. So, with that being said, um we just want to verify that we don't have any plans to remove any trees uh for the visibility of, you know, getting to be able to get people to know that they're storage unit. If there are clearing trees, we need to address that if there's architectural requirements that aren't up to to par, doesn't meet the ordinance in that area. Uh, but if you're not clearing any trees, I think with the visuals that you've given, I'm not even sure we're going to be able to see any landscaping or any lower brick facade on the building. So, I do not have an issue with that. Um, and on the trail, I I'm on the fence on that. I I I would like to hear [clears throat] is there any issues with liability? This is more for legal counsel. First question. The second question is is the way the UDEO is written. Does it even apply to a site plan review?

Those are two questions I have. And I know I know there's probably experience. My concern is liability to the town because that trail will be within the rightway. Correct. So if it's within the rightway and there's some kind of issue, what what does that do to the town? What kind of liability do we have? Well, Barry, we've been working together long enough for you to know that I don't like speaking about any liability. Yeah. In the open meeting. Happy to talk about that offline. Yeah.

Um I will tell you this that um you're never you'll never be able to keep yourself 100% from being sued, right? Somebody can sue you for anything. It's just what does your level of culability rise to? So, so on the UDO, the way you read that would you say that a site plan review is required to have that trail.

I'd have to go back and look at the exact language. Well, and and I put it in the in the uh staff summary that where it talks about trails and sidewalks is in the subdivision portion of the UDO and it refers to plaques, commercial subdivisions, residential, industrial. In the architectural standards, we have a section for sidewalks, but it doesn't explicitly say trails for all development. It just it just shows it in the the site plan or the chapter where all of the architectural standards are, the development standards. Um, which, you know, it honestly would not make sense to say a subdivision has to have them. I think that the sidewalk section for subdivisions is a little bit different than a trail. Um and and you know that we have a trail plan. We have a master plan and I'm you know I I'm [snorts] I can say that we want to try to get trails where we can get them as we can get them because in the future you don't know what it's going to be like in 25 years. You know railroad may not be there probably will be but you you just don't know what's going to happen in the future. So, you know, it's it's it's a tough this is a this is a tough one, I think, to address because of its location.

So, do we have if we have a trail plan, is does thoroughfare include that trail in that plan? I don't know if it's on this on the I don't know if it's on the master trail plan. I don't know the wording of of that either.

That's all I have to add. I I you know I think it's up to the board to figure out whether it be that way or not. I thought on the trail is the railroad is a rock. I mean they're not going to give you put in a [snorts] crossing for somebody to walk through there and it's you don't want them walking out road cross through there. So where does it go? I don't don't see that there.

Well, I I would agree with Tommy. Even if the railroad's not there, and I've dealt with this, not personally, but as where I work, even on abandoned railroad tracks, they still are very hesitant to give any kind of right away or even for like utility lines crossing over, that sort of thing. any kind of easement. And I I would agree with Tommy. I'm not I'm not opposed to trail. I love trails, but I I don't know where this would go, I guess. So, ultimately,

so I gave everyone a copy of the email that Will Lacy sent addressing the trails and and I can just tell you from his standpoint is this will connect to something eventually. It may not, you know, maybe it will go to 36, but it is going to, they're building a school to the south. You know, the the whole area, the town is um the goal is to develop this land in an industrial light industrial. So, in his opinion, I'm just I'm speaking for Will, is that that will eventually hopefully connect all the way around all of this industrial proposed industrial property. Couple questions. Um, the real estate is there for the trailer. It's just a question of whether to put it in or not. Is that correct?

I'd say that's fair. Uh, if it were to be put in uh at whatever the standards are, what's a rough guest of the cost? Guess of the cost. I I don't know the answer to that. It would be a wild guess. I I really

Yeah. My view on it is that at at some point in time it might get to the point that the trail would be needed. Frankly, I don't see that in my lifetime. Having said that though, [snorts] if there's some requirement for it, I'm not in favor. I wouldn't be in favor of just granting a waiver, but what I would be willing to, at least I would be willing to consider is say, does it make any sense to put in a trail in that section now when it's not going to get any usage? Uh, it's going to require maintenance and even with that, it's going to deteriorate over time. uh could we do something like uh get from uh Mr. lane. Uh perhaps the an estimated cost of that and the town could then apply that money elsewhere where on some other trail that would get usage. Now at the point in time that the property the south got developed and a trail would go in there that would connect into that and we had maybe access the railroad. It's already paid for from this perspective and then the town would be responsible for putting it in to connect with whatever would connect in. It just doesn't make sense to me to have one section of a trail that doesn't connect anything on either end. But I'm not I'm not in favor of just granting a waiver and saying, "Okay, forget it. Don't do it." If it's if it's part of the requirements.

I have a a question. I like that idea, but it is also possible, I believe, to get an easement uh to an area where a trail would be put. But he said there already. Yeah, it's not there now. It would have to be made the the rideway would have to be made to be big enough to accept it. Oh, I'm sorry. I misunderstood. I thought somebody said I think it was Barry. Somebody said, "Is there room to put it there?" There's room to put a trailer. Yeah. But not in the current not in the area that is currently dedicated by the way.

Yeah. An easement that did not have to be exercised until we needed it. um is another possibility that I sorry if I'm jumping in here, but I think what Dale will say, you can correct me if I'm wrong, is there will have to be a little bit of a redesign here to put that trail. Even if it were put in at a later date, he's going to have to a make the ride away there. There's also going to have to be grade work done unless it's done at a later date. Is that correct? Okay. So just just doing an easement wouldn't be it wouldn't be just that cut and dry. No, just to

because there's going to be grade work that's going to be required to make that trail useful to even put it in. So I think they would kind of move some things around. There would be additional engineering and grade work to be done. There would be a lot of great work to be done because it would be flat. It's pretty flat. Yeah, it would be in the area where the where the berm is for the for the pond. It would be in that area. Who determines um where the trail is on the property? Is that the property owner or No, it's it's based on standards that we have generally they are in the right of way.

Okay. And then and then standard for materials for trail. So Dale, to not beat the trail to death, I'm going to ask a different question that I give everybody a second to think about the trail because, you know, I'm I'm with lease on this. This is tough. Um I see both sides of it, but I hate to see a trail put in that's not going to be used for 20 or 30 years whenever the town definitely needs trails elsewhere immediately. So I agree with Mr. Potter on that. Um, but is there a reason that you're not reaching out to Danville for town Danville water or is it just logistics and the length the running pipe to get to 300 that? Okay. Yeah. I I assume that's what it is, but I want to make sure.

Yeah, that's fine.

I I think the important question to answer is does this project trigger the requirement for a walk or stop walk or trail? And I think there could be an argument made that it doesn't it doesn't trigger it because the the ordinance specifically says sidewalks and trails shall be required for residential, commercial, and industrial subdivisions. We're not doing that. We're not doing subdivision. So So maybe the compromise is Dwayne to dedicate the rideway where the trail would go because I don't think it wants to be in east. I think it wants to be rightway. I think Dwayne wants the sidewalk in an easement on his property for the the Lword reason for the liability reason and I think he would rather that sidewalk if they ever were put in to be out in the in the town rightway. So maybe the compromise is that Dwayne dedicates a rideway and we where I was talking about earlier, can't really see it on that picture, but where I was talking about earlier, we dedicate the rideway at the north end and the south end to complete the rideway dedication for what was dedicated when they built the road entry into the neighborhood across the road. May the compromise is we expand that the whole line out the rideway dedication line out far enough that it could accept the trail at some point in the future and then whenever the future happens and the trail happens then word about it then because it's going to be in my opinion it'll be a long long time before that trail has ever got anybody to walk on which way you were talking about was it's just going to continue building now it's going to deteriorate

and I don't even think I think an argument could be made not an attorney attorney. I think an argument could be made that this project doesn't even trigger the cycle anymore. So that's based on the burning of the ordinance. Are you claiming that? Yeah. Because of the use of the word subdivision at the end of that sentence. Can you please Sorry, we're not going to be able to pick it up on the recording. You're claiming that um it might not meet the requirements based on the fact that the word subdivision is at the end of that sentence and preceding that there are several other descriptions of types of developments. Am I correct? You mean where it says residential, commercial, industrial? Yes.

Yeah. Um, I think I think that's stretching a little bit when you look to the intent of the ordinance. It might be, like I said, it could be

that that's an opinion formed here tonight. It's I've not done any research or anything on it, but I I don't know that that would disqualify you from being required to have a trip. So that's why I offered that potentially the compromise is never mind what this says. Never mind what this says. The compromise is that the way to dedicate rival link so that if sidewalk were ever warranted there somehow you can get over the railroad cross 36 to Main Street somehow where there isn't a sidewalk all the way main street. If we ever get a sidewalk to do that, then then the rightway would be there to do it and town wouldn't be back in Dwayne's corner trying to purchase right away from him at then. It would be dedicated

and I think you guys talk I think in your staff letter you say something about the rideway dedication happening before building permit. There was a trigger for it. Um, I was thinking it was I think before the issue of CO because that'd be difficult to do at the time permit and that would be well they could get it prior to a pre-construction meeting. That would be okay. You can do that. So question back on the rideway. Is there enough room in there to get the rideway in where the town would be taken in landscaping or ponds or anything like that?

Um, you wouldn't be taken in. Can we go to I don't know. We need to go back up probably to the green. That one. Probably should blow that up a little bit. Yeah. So, so that trail could be starting at right. This is the railroad right away. That trail could come across the front of the residential house, could come across his driveway, the drive, the drive going into to the development, and it could come down along the edge of the um the BM where the the pond is. We just have to be particular about where we plant the trees,

but it wouldn't have to the rightway would not have to get all the way out to the pond. The rideway could be on the front slope, maybe the top bank. I don't know. I mean, you could sort out that detail, I guess. But the rideway would want to be somewhere uh east of the the pond. That rideway doesn't need to be down in the pond if that's what your question is. And that's really what it is because I don't want the town to be responsible for maintenance of landscaping or ponds. And that that verbiage on when the right ofway gets dedicated is under public streets, public rightway. It's in the the case summary.

Yeah. And so what I was saying was what I was proposing was we would dedicate the rideway to to finish the rideway dedication that they started when they did this passing list. [snorts] But maybe the compromise, my suggestion was maybe the compromise was that the rideway would be dedicated out here far enough that that trail would have a spot. It would have a if you can go. So would that trail go on the back side of the the mound? be on the front side. Okay. So, would the trail be outside on your plantings?

We'd just have to Barry said we'd have to do a little work. Part of that work would be to figure out how those uh plantings want to marry in with the with the trail and there would be a way to do that. I I would I would hate to see this go without having the real estate dedicated for a trail at some point in time. [clears throat] On the other end of that, I hate to see whether it be town money or Dwayne Lane money going to put a finished trail in there now that is not going to have any usage for the foreseeable future. So, I'd like to find maybe a compromise there with the dedication of the real estate that not require completion of the trail. But that's just my view.

So, sorry. I I would agree with that. I don't I don't know even if that trail is completed. I mean, even going to the south, I get I know that there's a a new middle school down there that's Avon. Uh but I I guess I'm Not sure where where a trail would go if it continued further to the south. You got the rear road and the uh super highway with nobody. Yeah. I mean, there's no way it's going to go across the railroad and the highway to the north. That's just not going to happen.

Not not in our lifetime. And it could continue to exist as a rightway or an easement and not be exercised until such need arises. Yeah. So Dale, real quick, do you know how much and I always put numbers these things. It's just what I do.

Do you know how much right away in acreage or square footage you're talking you would have to be given? Um, and I'm not asking for an exact number because we recently had to acquire right away and we kind of know what that cost is. So that's 40. This that's 40 and that's the rideway line right there. The current rideway line. So if that's 40 and that's 40, then we need to dedicate an additional 40 ft across across the the whole frontage of this property. And this thing is about 700 roughly 700 feet.

Yeah, I think it's a little less than that. But if you want to just say 400 by 700 just for round numbers, it's that'd be close. So half 2,800. How wide a not wide or five? Yes, it's less than an acre. It's about 6 of an acre, I think. I'm sorry, I missed your question. I said, "How wide is the I think it's 8 feet." Is that right? So, two people can walk side by side. Is that right? Barry is eight. It is the current.

We're trying to get I mean we we are getting 10 in some areas because really that is the goal. Eight is the standard, the exact standard right now. Oh, sorry about the width of the trail. Uh-huh. I think we need to be really careful how wide of a trail that you construct because I know of an instance golfart recently. What' you say? Golf carts where no a car cars

where an actual car zipping down the trail because it was wide enough for a car to drive on. So maybe the happy medium is to get the trail wide enough that two people can easily pass, but not wide enough that you want to promote a vehicle to actually to drive down the trail. I don't know. Just natural comment, but I think the 8 foot wide path is probably would discourage that. You start talking 10, then you're getting wide enough to have car. Yeah. Right. But that's I think when we did day label, I think we did eight. [clears throat]

So to answer your question, Tommy, that 8 foot 8 foot wide trail would be basically uh on the west side of the the roadside ditch. The roadside ditch that runs along the county road already there. Uh it'll run on the west side of that ditch and I'm on that in the bank of the pond. Okay. So far, we've discussed an easement in a right of way. We don't have anything written out describing what we're we're thinking about. We've just talked about uh is it possible to Can you speak in the speaker, please? I am. [laughter] I'm just short.

So far, we've discussed both right away and easement. We haven't distinguished between the two. Uh, and um, I was thinking that maybe it would be nice to have some formulation of language that would memorialize what an agreement we have reached, if we can reach an agreement. Um, it what could would it be conceivable that it could state right ofway or easement? I I think from our preference if we're ever and you can correct me if I'm wrong. I think from the town's point of view, we'd want to dedicate as right away because we're going to have to maintain that once that goes in if it's and it's going to be a public sidewalk. My contention has been and always will be that if you have a sidewalk or a trail, a public rideway is ultimately the town's responsibility to maintain that. If someone gets injured and there's an issue, the town is going to be involved in that no matter who is involved or what. So, it is our responsibility to maintain that in a way, especially with um the ADA requirements that will be met for crossing the streets. I would prefer rightway um over easement because on one hand, if it's rightway, they don't pay taxes on that property. If it's easement, they pay taxes. think this development, the value of this development is going to far outweigh that little bit of land, but that's for all of us to decide. So, I I I would prefer it be right away and that could be done at at at recording. It doesn't take any special knowledge tonight. We just got to figure out what that width is administratively. Um, and we got to see that on a set of plans so that we are not taking in a detention bomb or landscaping that is tied to this development. If you decide to approve this, you can approve it. Approve it

subject to dedication of the right of way to be viewed by the town's attorney for the proper wording to be in recordable form. I agree.

I would agree in that right away is because at that point it is it runs with the property, right? An easement can be abandoned, revoked at whatever time right away runs with the property and then it is something that you've got to go through a process to get rid of once it is established. Um the other thing I would say is you guys are having a lot of great discussion. My recommendation would be to open the public hearing, have the public hearing, close that public hearing, and then work through the rest of the discussion point so that you can get to uh wherever it is the commission is going to get to on this decision.

Yes, sir. Can I [clears throat] make just one more I one more clarification? Um, so I put in the in the letter that you're not proposing a dumpster and I just want to verify that that you are not proposing a dumpster. Um and then I wanted to make a clarification um on the case summary under zoning which is the first paragraph on the first page um next to the last paragraph where it talks about um developer receive site plan approval for nine cell storage buildings located I have east and that should be west. I just want to make that part of the public hearing.

There any other questions up here before I open it up? Since this is a public hearing, I will now open up for anybody that wants to come up and speak about this project. Okay, nobody move the public hearing and close.

Okay, real quickly for the record, there was some discussion regarding this whole subdivision and whether um that whether it applies. So what I've done is I've been digging through your UDO as we've been sitting here. Um and so subdivision is defined in your UDO as a division or lot division of a lot or parcel of land into two or more lots parcels or other divisions of land for sale development or lease. Here's where I think the problem comes into play is a subdivision includes a division or development of any land whether by deed needs and balance description or other recorded instrument. Subdivisions are further classified as commercial industrial subdivision, minor residential subdivision or major residential subdivision. So when you go to the commercial or industrial subdivision, which is what I think we'll apply here, approval granted by plan commission in accordance with Indiana code 3674700 series, which is where we're at right now, uh for the subdivision of a parcel of a commercial or industrial development. And so that includes the development of a commercial property, which would be included in your definition of a commercial subdivision. So I hear what the argument you're making. I don't think that the UDO affords that.

It wasn't an argument. It was which is I'm not saying that you were making I hear what you were the point you were making and I just don't think the UDO fors that. So therefore it just would require a waiver. you you'd be talking about a waiver from the requirement of a sidewalk or trail because that's what it requires, a sidewalk or trail or um some sort of agreement for a right away to be recorded.

Any other questions? I'd entertain a motion to approve this site plan review or reject it or approve it with conditions. I move that we accept the site plan with conditions. Uh the conditions are noted in the staff report here, but I will highlight some of them. um that the um future signage must be approved if if it occurs. That a security fence be provided. Uh and that um a right of way for designated for sidewalks or trails must be included in your site plan. And that pre-construction meetings will be required prior to starting work and it must pay for all inspection fees and a certificate of obligation must be submitted before the pre-construction meeting. We have a motion. Uh aren't those already covered in the inspection fees and stuff and we don't have to add that in extra.

No, it's not in the letter. The only difference there, Tommy, is the basically the self-certification. He's just guaranteeing he's going to certify that the development is going to be built in to the engineers design. That's ultimately what that is. I will second the motion as stated. We have a motion and a second. Roll call, please. Mr. Potter. Hi. M Rford. I. Mr. Harvey. Hi. Mr. Thompson. Hi. Miss Hill. I'm hi. Mr. Chad. Hi.

I I'm going to abstain because I am on the trail committee. I don't know if that's required, but I think that's appropriate or I'm looking at legal counsel. If you believe that you cannot vote objectively, then it's appropriate to I think I will. Motion carry 61. Extension. Thank you very much. Thank you. Happy have to get up here and talk my job. [laughter] Thanks. He's probably happy. All [laughter]

right. [clears throat] Now, we have two design review items. The first one is uh for a property located at 20 West Main Street. Scott Lingal, is that you? Okay. Different Scott. Scott Perkins with Black Line.

Mr. Lingo can't be here tonight. He had a prior prior commitment. So, um Scott Perkins, 1043 Virginia Avenue, Indianapolis, also here in Danville. Um so, tonight uh showing you the exterior work proposed for 20 West Main. uh we presented and reviewed and got approval by the design committee meeting uh design committee meeting last week. Um what's what's currently p planned and and permitted is placement of a restaurant in the building at 16 and 20 West Street. Um the upper level will be office suites. There's a series of offices upstairs and the whole first floor of both buildings will be a restaurant space. So, um I'll just kind of walk you through this. This image shows the the west elevation. Currently, you can see um we are proposing the addition of two new doors on this west side of the building. Um those doors will be glass. Um the idea basically is the what's currently parking on the side of the building is going to be proposed in the future as outdoor dining space kind of a courtyard or patio for outdoor dining. So as part of the project, we're proposing two doors. One, so if you enter off Main Street, check in with a host or hostess and then you can come out this door to that future outdoor dining space. And then this door um will be for surfers and staff carrying drinks and drinks and food in in and out to that to that proposed outdoor dining space. And then proposed on the second floor um we there's there's four offices kind of in each corner of the space where

we're adding a new conference room that'll be in the center that currently doesn't have a window. We are proposing to add one window in the west elevation of of the building on the second floor. So here you can kind of see where those doors are in relation to the mural. Now, there was discussion about the mural at the design review committee meeting. As we understand it, that that the I guess time limit for that mural is it is at or the area it's in and and the lingual um as part of a future project, they may propose a a different mural for this location. Um but that's that's to be determined. So, at this point, we're just asking for approval for the the the new entry doors and the new window on the second floor. And that's um on the front or main street side of the building. [clears throat] Um uh we're going to paint the kind of the existing storefront. All that will basically stay as as is or the appearance that it has. second floor windows stay as they are on the back or north side of the building. There is some old masonry openings um that are going to get repaired and we're doing new windows in in those. So that's essentially that's the extent of the exterior work proposed for the project. So happy to respond to any questions um if if you have any. Um

you're putting a new door up front too. uh what's currently shown there that that orange door um the the previous owner as part of their work had blank that off to to kind of have a different configuration to get up the stairs. We're proposing that that actually becomes a working door to go up to the to the second floor also into the restroom or upstairs. No, sir. the the existing door on the west side that where you came and went to go into diesels will stay as is. And then the door on the right will be an exit door from from the dining area. And then the center, the orange door that goes up and serves those offices upstairs.

Yeah. And that that's a good separation from the two occupancies. It'd be difficult to have access to a B occupancy going through May. Yep. So, um, the only thing I have to add is we definitely need to see some engineered drawings on cutting the walls of that building. And I know you know this just because of the age of the building, the way it's built, we need some I want to make sure we get engineered drawings that show those cuts and how that's going to be shored up.

In our in our plans, we've got level details. We don't have we don't have short we don't have a shoring diagram because that's kind of on the contractor and not on the engineering side. So we we do have LL details that call outs the size of the steel ls for for the for the new opening just not the the actual shoring. Do you need something that

I'm a little bit fearful on on this building of of the age of the building or how that wall is configured if it's like some of the buildings that I've been used to working with there's really no structural wall per se other than the brick itself being weaved. um when you cut that deep into that wall. I want to make sure we don't and I know they did some tuck pointing on this recently on the front. I don't know about this side. I just want to make sure those doors, you know, we we've done some proper engineering uh for the design of cutting those openings because they can affect the the structural integrity of that wall. Sure.

Absolutely. I'll give it to the contractor. We'll we'll figure out what how they're intending to to cut saw cut those openings. We did have a structural engineer look at the building specifically. Um, sorry, can you go back to the side view? So, there is um right here. [clears throat] One with the mural. Yeah. Well, yeah, that one. So, you're doing a great job. [laughter]

Yeah. So Barry on the on the kind of west side of the building kind of at the north end there's there's some cracking that you can see. Sorry I'm shaking here. There's some cracking that you can see on the inside of the building there. Our structural engineer looked at that. That's that's addressed as part of the scope is repair of that crack and replacement of some joist some second floor joist in that area specifically to address that that area. Is that in the building plans that were submitted? Yes, sir. Okay. Yep.

Yeah. And so lentils, lentils for these new openings are in, you know, their typical details, but there's a new steel lentil for for all of those existing openings. The one thing we're not really sure about is the, you know, the mural appears to be painted like on a epha stucco surface. I think that's probably on plywood on a wood frame wall. with brick behind that. But I'm not exactly sure kind of what that sandwich of the wall construction is. So there will be um you know once we kind of make a small opening and see what's what you know maybe you know I'll probably have to sketch a detail for how we're trimming that kind of making that transition through the wall.

But again structurally we've got details that show that and I I'll be with them on shoring. Yeah. And I know this is really not plank related, but since he's here, I want to ask these questions. Um, will you guys be checking to make sure the contractor is following their details? Will there be follow up with the engineers on site making sure?

Yeah, we're we we've already got a handful of questions from the contractor and I'll be I'll be stopping by every week or two progress. Do you know what the the condition of the brick or anything like that is behind that would it be covered up or is there still going to be would there be any issues down the road?

Yeah. So, I went back and checked my files from before the mural was built. So, we've got I've got some photos of that that exterior brick wall because if you remember there there used to be a building to the west of there that was torn down. That wall was pretty ragged. So, I think that's why they they added a new furred out wall and the the he is on that to protect it. Um, I'll go back and look at those photos and if I see any thing to be concerned about, [clears throat] we'll we'll work towards addressing that. Okay. Anybody else got any questions? Okay, this just requires a vote, right?

Yes, it does. I would entertain a motion. I move that we approve the request for exterior renovations to the property located at 20 West Main Street. We have a motion to approve. Do I hear a second? Second. We have a motion and a second. Mr. P. I. M. Rford. Hi, Mr. Har. I Mr. Thompson. Hi, Miss Howard. Hi, Mr. Chad. I I vote I as well. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Okay. The next item is John Finley of Boil Construction Management Design Review for uh what's the address? One South Washington. One South.

Good evening. Uh my name is John Finley with Coil Construction Management. We are located at 8091 Crawford'sville Road in Indianapolis. Um this uh project is for like you said one South Washington Street. Um it's the section of building just north of Frank's Place and what we are proposing is replacement of some existing existing windows on the west and north side of that building. Uh this drawing here shows the uh north side of the building and what we are doing their existing Marvin windows uh on the top on the second floor and first floor. the uh we are going to be replacing the door and transom on the left hand side of your screen there in that first the next window unit uh with Marvin windows to match the existing windows on the first floor. Um this we went through the historical design review and one of their comments was to save those existing windows which we plan to do. um on the north side of the building. If you scroll down, keep going or I'm sorry, the west side. Yeah, this side. Um you want to scroll to the next one, please. And the next one. So, it's trying to show some existing conditions there. Um again, this is li work is limited to the first floor of the west side uh elevation and it would be the northwest side. So, uh, we plan to remove the lower existing windows and doors, um, and replace those with storefront units, and then the, um, trans units will be opened up. If you scroll back up to the existing photo, uh, currently those are closed in with

wood. We plan to open those back up uh, and install glass in those openings. So that's the extent of our work on the exterior elevations of this property.

This was heard by the design review committee last Wednesday and they sent a favorable recommendation but there were three items. So um when you make your motion just if you want to make it subject to that the staff letter of November 6, 2025 those three items are in there um and he has addressed each one. Um but I can read those off to you. Uh the west facade is as proposed. Um the north facade either or retaining the four westernmost windows as is or replacing kind. He has stated they're going to keep them as is. Um and then replacement of one window and one door transom on the east on the end of the north facade on the east end. This is kind of not related to anything, but is anything going to be done with the old bird alarm that's along the

uh we have no intention of touching that. Okay. So, we'll leave it there. What's that alarm? Yeah, it's it's sort of a box right above the first floor. Yeah. Yes. That's I don't know. That'd be kind of neat if that were I guess. Yeah. Painted. I don't know. That's my grandfather was the president of that bank. Okay. Back until 1959. Did your grandfather own that building? No. Is that the Harvey? Is it Harvey? No, that was cousin. So, I do have one question. I may have spoke to you prior. It's been a while. Yeah. Talking about the sidewalk.

Yes. And that um just want to bring that up. Um just to say that we're here to help facilitate anything that's going to be done with that because there is an issue with the sidewalk and according to responsible for sidewalks once we built so many things and that's on the north side is the north side. I was hoping to see the north elevation like that. There isn't. There should be at the very top. I didn't know if replacing that door is going to create an issue for that street, but I believe it's a street from the door. I don't think I included that,

but here's a photo. I think this is what you're talking.

So, yeah, there's a railing and the sidewalk there is um interesting, I guess I would say. Um, and I know the owners are uh that's in the back of their mind to address that. Um, I think part of the purpose right now was to get occupants inside the building because they know that that's Yeah. And just so you can pass the information along, we're going to be placing the sidewalk on the north side [clears throat] of or on the west side of this building. first quarter of 26.

So, it might be a good time to team up on if there's improvements, we can help facilitate that. I'd like to do that for and of course, you know, doing along the west side is not problem. The north side is a problem because even though we've got to maintain the sidewalks, we have to get permission from mid. So, just want to make sure that if we can time this out right and make decrease your cost and you can make that whole corner look good, which is I'm sure was the owners. And you said first quarter, first quarter 26. Okay. Probably closer to March. February.

What's up?

Um so existing um you want to go back to the other. So yeah, on your right hand side there, there are two apartment complexes or two apartments upstairs. Um, one up front and one to the back. And then on the left hand side of your screen, those will be commercial office spaces. So part of what we're doing is uh a lot of there's a lot of historical features inside that building that we plan to maintain. Um, and the second floor is a big part of that. So, uh, we are restoring existing plaster, existing plaster details. Um, the owner's going to a great expense to maintain a lot of what's there. [music] So, and that includes the first floor of the West End as well. Um, when you walk in, there's decorative plaster along the ceiling and crown molding and stuff like that that we are maintaining.

Yeah. I think in the middle of that area there was a opening where they used to hoist dry goods up and down that shaft I believe because I I know is there is there still is it copper on the roof or on the ceiling? Uh it's not. Is it tile? No, it's all plaster on the ceiling. Tile. Yeah. Um and then there's a decorative plaster along one side of the wall. Um the devising wall between the two. Yeah. and uh we're restoring that as well. Um yeah, it's got a lot of character in there.

Thank you. Anybody have any questions? Entertain a motion. Uh, I will move that we approve the plan as submitted subject to the recommendations of the design review committee as set forth in the November 6 letter from Mr. Nate. Okay, we have a motion. Do I hear a second? A second. We have two seconds. [laughter] I don't think we're second. Hi, Mr. Potter. Hi, Miss Ripper.

Hi, Mr. Hartley. Hi, Mr. Thompson. Hi, Miss Howard. Hi, Mr. Chad. Hi, I as well. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Okay. Any other business? Nope. No other business? No reports or anything? I I have something I want to I didn't sign these minutes because I wasn't here at this meeting. Should somebody else sign these minutes or am I just approving what I was reading? No, your your signature is going to be the verification of the vote that's taken by the commission. As the secretary said, I would entertain a motion to adjourn. I'm going to second. [laughter] All in favor say I say I