Personnel & Finance Committee - Regular Meeting

Is Thursday, 12/11/2025, 2PM for the, ombuds subcommittee. So today, we have a, a fairly, well, we'll we'll get to the the meat of the agenda here in a minute, which will be the reports. But first, we have minutes. Would anybody like to, move approval?

So moved, Shannon.

Thank you, Shannon. Do we have any objections or comments about the minutes? Otherwise, all in favor, say aye. Aye. Aye. Alright. Any opposed? Alright. We have minutes. And then we move straight to g, the reports to the committee, and we have our term report of the ombuds. Yeah.

It is not the annual term report.

It is the standard ordering.

I was gonna ask. No. That is going to come in the future. That was my bad. Sorry, everybody. No. That's fine. So this update is coming, with very real information because it was submitted as of yesterday. So my apologies. But we're looking at, you know, total close to for the year to date as of December 10, 93 office visitors, 67 unique visitors, one team presentation, 18 facilitations and mediations, one training, one visitor during open office hours.

So yay. So since our last meeting, which was October 14, we've had seven office visitors, only two unique or new office visitors. I've not done team presentations, but I have done six facilitations or mediations. And again, mediations are two people. Facilitations are more than two.

No trainings and no visitors during office hours. So in the future, there is a requested training for 2026, which would not be falling under this contract. And then I actually do have a future facilitation scheduled as of today. And no additional meetings in the future Okay. That I'm aware of.

Good. The next slide is the timeline for the office closure. So on 11/19/2025, the DOA issued a formal notice of nonrenewal. So we are operating under the contract ending December 31. So these are the deliverables I believe I need to submit prior to that time.

As was planned for a long period of time, December 23 to December 31, I will be closing the office. But I will have virtual support available as needed. And then December 31, on or before the physical office will be vacated, return my keys and my key card and access to the space. And then, as stated in the non renewal, on or before March 31, I will submit the term report for 2025, submitted to the ombud subcommittee. And that is what I have for my report, and I'm open to questions.

Do

we have any questions?

I've got a question.

Yeah. Go ahead. We we have the presentation on the screen here, so I can't see your raised hands.

Yeah. Yeah. I didn't raise my hand. I just jumped in because

there was a long enough pause. Anyhow No. I'm glad you did. So, Diana, I guess I'm thinking now, you know, you're in a good position. Right? You've had a year and a half ish. I guess kind of what are so I know some of this will be in the 2025 report. But I guess kind of if you could think about what things that you you know, if you had another year, what are the things that you other than kind of just the standard pieces that you've been doing, like, what's what kind of things would you recommend that this group continue thinking about or that Dane County continue thinking about as an employer kind of from an ombuds perspective?

Yeah. Absolutely. I think there has been a shift over time and momentum in a certain direction. I feel like the beginning of the contract and no specific time or timeline was really focused on existing issues that extended long before I started the program that were maybe built up and more systemically based. Recently, in the last year, those have shifted to interpersonal problems in units focused around culture.

So, as you can see, I'm doing a fair amount more facilitations and mediations, which was a goal set forward in the 2024 term report. And those facilitations and mediations have been really focused on improving workplace culture on a one to one or unit based. So I think that's really where the effort should continue, is really working with individuals between peers and managers, with manager support at least, in facilitating good conversations and education around how to manage conflict effectively as a team, right? So I'm seeing that as an increasingly more valuable and productive way of making an impact on the individual employee's experience. So moving forward, I would suggest that those services continue to be offered without barriers to finding those services.

I think that the county is set up for those services to be provided in a formal capacity, But I feel like there is opportunity for a less formal process like the ombuds office is set up to be that can help proactively solve conflict and remove disciplinary action. I think when teams are educated on conflict methodologies that have common language, shared experience, that they are much more effectively able to self manage multiple different situations instead of a prescriptive do this, do that. So the office has had some really positive facilitations in the last couple months that feel very rewarding for me, for the management team, and the individuals participating. And I think that that is excellent momentum, and I would love to see that continue at the county. I think there is a huge benefit to the county as an employer and the county employees.

Does that answer your question, or were you looking for a slightly different angle?

Looking for a right answer. I just was looking for, yeah, whatever you were thinking. Thank you.

Yeah. Absolutely.

Yeah. I have a question about that. So, I guess, when when I'm thinking about the facilitations and mediations, and thinking about how it differs from

sort

of workplace training.

Mhmm.

Right? In other words, I can go take a class Mhmm. On conflict management. But when I have a conflict and I need to manage it, I seek mediation or facilitation.

Yeah.

Right? So I I guess what I'm what I'm trying to think about is the effectiveness of one versus the other of training versus mediation and facilitation. And I think both are important. But and and maybe I'll give you my hypothesis, and then you can react to my hypothesis. My my my hypothesis is that people don't pay attention to employee training, but they do pay attention to facilitation and mediation.

Mhmm.

That's my hypothesis. Do you find that to be is that crazy talk, or is there something there?

Yeah. So I have a lot of thoughts on this. I will try to be concise. Oftentimes, in my business, I actually I do a lot of training, I do a lot of public speaking. And I find it's not nearly as effective as approaching a tangible conflict, right? And I have a couple hypotheses of my own as to why that is. When you are training a mass group, or even a small group, 25 people kind of a thing, it's very easy for the individuals who are causing conflict to blame. Right? To say, oh, that doesn't apply to me. It's their problem.

Right? And in a training, you cannot address historical harm that has been done by individuals, whereas a facilitation is designed to do so. A facilitation is designed to acknowledge the experience of everyone in the room and then talk about how you can generate options, along with methodologies and training, to come to a better understanding, right? So trainings are there for better understanding. If they are applied, which they oftentimes are not, it can be an effective tool to share common language amongst large groups of people, methodologies amongst large groups of people.

I think the embodiment of those, or the effectiveness of those, is lower because the people who attach to it do not have the same connection with it than the people who think it's crap. So, again, a facilitation is designed around a program or a problem, excuse me. However, if it's facilitated correctly, it should also be teaching those methodologies in a non prescriptive way, so that people can understand how to apply the same principles in their work life on a daily basis. And it becomes much more interactive, right? Like if you were to do a webinar required training that somebody has to sit through with their headphones on at their desk, there's no skin in the game for them to absorb it.

But when I'm asking them personal questions about their needs in a situation, and the opposing person's needs, and then trying to figure out a solution that meets both of those needs, it's far more effective than just knowing that that's the path you need to take. It helps them absorb, act on, and continue the

work. Okay.

And, I mean, this is that's helpful because that I I think it it aligns with sort of my feelings on the the hypothesis as well. And and so I guess what I wanna say is that it's not just that managers are getting information and training on conflict management. Mhmm. And so in that way, it's not just a sort of prophylactic. Right?

It is the the goal of the ombuds is to is is to be reactive in the moment while allowing us to change processes, to to adapt processes,

to

to improve, over time. Right?

Yes. To give people additional communication options and perspectives on each other's views, harm, you know, whatever it is, and to create a shared experience in a group. Right? Like, do team builders, right? We bring people out to lunch or whatever it is, know, bring in donuts, right?

Those are intentional shared experiences. However, when you problem solve through a shared experience, there is a deeper facilitated relationship in that, right? So I think that's very important for individuals to see hope for a change, to see Oh, shit. That's Okay. To see, like, the opportunity to witness another person processing and coming to acceptance of what's being said.

And it relies on willing parties, right? So when we see an authoritative approach in management, in leadership, in peer relationships, we create a win lose situation, a competitive situation, right? You listen to me or there's a consequence. When we see collaboration in facilitation, or more cooperativeness and willingness in facilitation, we're getting much better results in a cooperative environment, right? Because people are saying, I'm taking ownership and responsibility over my actions because I'm hearing you express historical harm, and then in return, I'm asking the same of you.

I'm asking for you to recognize my needs. And so there is a shared experience versus a training is an individual experience. And oftentimes, trainings bring up more questions than answers because they're an information dump. And then you leave saying, How do I implement this? Whereas a facilitation is a lot more personalized, and it can solve it can work to implement the actions. Right? To understand how instead of what you're supposed to

do. Yeah. Good. So I guess I think as I think about what about what this service, about what this office was intended to address, I think that's exactly it. Right?

Which is that there's there's a difference between the between the training and a facilitation. And getting that facilitation as close to the harm, but when people are still willing to work together in a in a non hostile, non combative, non conflict related in an in an informal environment, right, without throwing accusations at each other with just trying to make a better workplace. The the that's that's what the ombuds office is intended to do. Mhmm. And so whatever I think this is going forward, that that needs to be sort of at the heart of it.

Mhmm.

Right? I think.

Yeah. And I think that facilitation doesn't happen in two hours, right? Like, oftentimes, an initial facilitation that I offer is two hours long. I work with some groups for two months. I work with some groups for six months. You know, like, we the defensiveness of that first two hours is going to be extremely high. Yeah. You're going to witness a lot of blame, right? And through education, through seeing continued effort from your colleagues over time, through seeing change, you build that momentum, you build that openness, you build that receptiveness. So I think that's another difference between training.

Training is a one and done. Facilitation is an extended period of time and attention. And I think having a dedicated resource to that facilitation allows them the mental headspace to educate themselves outside of that facilitation, to prepare, to come equipped, and to recover after. So that's very hard to do when you have 18 other things on your calendar that day. It really separates the facilitator from the experience.

Excellent.

Yeah. So I would think that of the things I have contributed to this county in the last year and a half, facilitation with small group and small units has been the most effective and the most beneficial and valuable.

Thanks. Do you have any other thoughts, comments, questions?

K. Matt, he muted himself.

Oh, I'll just

say something.

There you

I'll just say something. Yeah. Sorry. I was.

Supervisor, please. Yep.

Yeah. Sorry. Was laying out. Coming in. I heard me. I just wanted to thank you for your work, and and where we go from here is, you know, something we'll have

to figure

out. But just getting, you know, the whole process in everybody's minds. So and thoughts and on how we can, you know, make a better experience is the right word, but a better time for employers for employees and management and labor so we can, you know, try to smooth the edges.

Absolutely. Thank you very much.

Okay. Alright. Well, if do we have any other comments? Otherwise, seeing none. We are at, item h, future meeting items and dates. I don't see anything listed here. So our normal schedule would be February. The term report or the annual report is due in March.

March.

Is due at the March. So, you know, do we wanna try to meet in April and then again in March, or do we just wanna wait until March and meet when the annual report is presented?

I think May I

until, the annual report is presented seems like a reasonable approach.

Go ahead, Tanya.

I would agree. I think based on my timeline and capacity, I am hoping that I will submit the report in February instead of the March.

Okay.

Just the likelihood of client work build up throughout the year is a lot higher. So it's something that I hope, while it's fresh in my mind, that I will be able to complete and submit.

Good.

So if that is the case, no promises, You know, it might make sense to schedule once I'm aware of when I'll be submitting, so that it can be pretty quickly

I think

that after

helpful. Would So I might suggest then that we wait to reschedule until we have a first draft and a sort of deadline date on Mhmm. When that when the report will be finished.

Mhmm.

And then we just schedule for a couple weeks after that.

Yes. And I think last year, we had talked about submitting a first draft to this committee and then submitting a final one as a Yeah. Course of action. I guess my question would be, do we feel that's still appropriate?

Ariel. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm I'm not answering that question. I I was gonna ask a separate question, which is kind of logistically. So, on January 3 or fourth or whatever, someone wants to contact the ombuds, like what's kind of the game plan for, are they going to get like an email saying office is closed, send us an email and someone's gonna reach out or, like, what's the I don't know. I guess I kinda feel like not having a meeting when we I mean, I I see the benefit to waiting to see what's in the report, etcetera.

But, also, I I think that, you know, just because Diana is not gonna be here doesn't mean that there aren't people that are gonna be looking for help. So I guess I'm not clear on what kind of the user experience is gonna be for those folks.

So I can speak to what I have proactively done. On the website, which is where most employees reach out to me, There is currently a pop up and a banner notifying that the office will close December 31, or, you know, be virtual from the twenty third to the thirty first, and then close permanently on the thirty first. I intend to keep that website functional for a short period of time, maybe wrapping up a month or something like that after the contract, so that people know. The calendar will go to no availability starting January 1. My email will obviously stay active until I've completed reporting.

And, there is no more punch list for the contract. So if there is an opportunity for me to forward concerns to an appropriate place. I'm happy to continue to be responsive or put an out of office that would direct people to the resources that the county dictates that I would do so.

I think we and DOA can start to take a look too at where we do redirect our employees so they they know where to go, and so we can work on that as well. There

will

be a new staff person for this committee in the New Year with the transitions coming up. So that will also be a good time to find and identify that person. So if you do wanna meet in January, we could do that. Looks like Nick was also unmuted.

Yep. Nick.

I was gonna say I wrote that down, Shelley. So, and then, the other thing is we're gonna have to figure out what the service looks like going forward, and, that will take some time, to get ready because we need to redesign some of these pieces and get it ready for, putting that out in terms of an RFP and getting it on the street. So that that will take some time and some work. And I don't know if we have that all figured out yet, but that will is a part of our next steps on this process.

Presumably, that would at least original drafts of that would come through this committee or at least some discussion about what those services will look like would come through this committee at some point.

I believe so.

Okay.

Okay. Yeah. I think my only note on that is my contract expires December 31. And I don't believe there is requirement for me to continue attending meetings outside of reporting at the March 31 deadline.

I don't think anybody would expect you to attend the meeting

No, just like from previous conversations, right, about meeting in February and then in March. I just wanted to note that.

Yep. Literacy.

Do you wanna clarify my am I hearing that there's a desire to have a meeting before that March timeline? Is that what I'm hearing, Ariel, you chime in?

I just feel like there's enough stuff up in the air, and and I get that maybe DOA isn't ready to act now. But I guess I just worry that if we wait to have an, you know, an April meeting, then the April meeting will be, okay. Let's start thinking about what does this RFP look like. And, yeah, I I guess I just I feel like if we take our foot off the gas for three or four months that, you know, it's things are just gonna kinda slip through our hands a little bit. And I worry that, you know, what are people gonna be where are people gonna be directed, what's that gonna look like.

You know? I feel like whatever we don't know now, you know, then we we don't know now, and we should just start meeting and talking about what we think the RFP should look like and those questions. And, yeah, I feel like we can think about that stuff now also.

Yeah. I mean, I'm wonder I I think those are really good points, and I agree with you, Ariel, that, like, waiting three or four months probably not ideal. And, you know, I guess I would think, you know, maybe we can put sort of a date out there as a, like, let's meet by you know, call it, you know, something like March 5. If we if we have if we don't have a meeting on the date on the calendar by March 5, that we just call it March 5, something like that. That way we can, know, to your point, kinda keep this thing moving forward.

And so that way, it'll give Diana time to kinda get stuff together. And if she's, if she thinks we can have a, a meeting prior to that, then schedule something prior to that. Otherwise,

I

guess I'm looking at, like, that first week of March is the second through the sixth. When would our when would we normally have a meeting? It would be, like, the February 16. Right?

Say, like, the third Tuesday.

The third Tuesday. So that'd be the February 17. Would kinda be our normal, or it would be the March 17.

If you're looking for preferences, I kinda like your idea of let's just call it March 5 if we don't have anything ready to go by that date, and then that and then we just take that as sort of a meeting because I think that's sort of about you know, we'll give us some time to get some of these questions answered, maybe get a draft, and then we can have a productive discussion if we don't have a term report available. And then if there's a term report available, then maybe we hold that, and then maybe we have a longer meeting. I don't know. But, I mean, if if the desire among the committee is to meet sooner rather than later, then, I mean, I can go along with that too.

Yeah. I mean, March 5 is a Thursday. March 3 would be that Tuesday. I don't know that Okay. I I don't know that it matters particularly from well, let me make sure it doesn't matter for me. Before I say things, I should probably at least confirm that they don't mean anything for me. Those weeks those days do not mean anything for me.

It's one of those things where you start down that path, and all of sudden, it's like, oh, crap.

And so, yeah, I guess I'm thinking if we say the third or the fifth, and then as long as we know by, like, the week of the sixteenth, as long as we know by the week of the sixteenth whether the report will be done before by that time.

Sorry. The week of February 16 or March 16?

February 16. Okay. As long as we know by February 16 that the draft will be done on or before March 5 or whatever that date is. So maybe we just pin that there. And then if we can meet earlier, great. If we can't, we'll just meet on the does anybody care whether it's the second or the March 4?

Third or the fifth.

Third or fifth. Sorry. Sorry. Third or fifth. Anybody have a preference?

Third right now is more open than the fifth. So k. But that would go back to our typical Tuesdays.

Yep. Yep. Anybody have a problem with the third?

We're talking at 02:00. Have our standard time?

Yep.

Yeah. That's fine on mine. Correct.

Okay. So I guess I would say let's let's put a holding place out there for March 3. And if we can get it before that, we can figure out by email a date earlier than that. And if we don't think we'll make it by the third, then this committee will meet on the third, and then we'll meet again once the report's ready.

Sounds good.

Is that good with everyone?

It is. Yep.

Cool.

A question has come up to me if I'm okay to ask it. Yeah. After my termination of the contract, there have been people who have expressed interest in continuing the work with me as an independent consultant. Does this committee see issue with that if the funding is coming from the departments? Or is that a question for someone else? I would no longer be working

I in an don't think that's

a question for Shelby.

I'll look at it, and I'll confer the legal counsel to see if that if we have any concerns with that. I don't know. I have to look at the contract language too just to Okay. Confirm that. And then is that request coming from specifically individuals or, like, one or two people, or is that, like, a department level come in for a facilitation on this Tuesday one time?

It's been training and continuation of facilitations for the most part, not like an individual who wants to have a mediation with a colleague. It's more from a management department level approval.

I will look into that, and we'll get back to you.

Thank you. Mhmm.

Excellent. Alright. Future meeting dates and times, we have that sorted out. I don't think we have any public comment because nobody from the public is here. And then any other such business as may be allowed by law? Otherwise, I would take a motion to adjourn.

So, Mo

Chair, thank you, Shannon. Unless anybody is opposed, we are adjourned. Thank you, everybody.