Personnel & Finance Committee - Regular Meeting

Go ahead and get started with the May 5, meeting of the, ombud subcommittee. So, I guess we should let's first do a role. Sure.

Kara Glazer? Glazer here. Shannon Meyer?

Meyer here.

Ariel Brock?

Brock here.

Nick Bob? I'm here. And, supervisor Beldron?

Here. Okay.

Excellent. Actually, there were some questions around sort of the we'll get to it in a little bit here, but sort of the status of of this meeting and the the composition of this subcommittee. So let's go ahead and get minutes figured out first, and then we can probably do that as part of the discussion items because I suspect that'll be part of the future of the subcommittee discussion.

Well, I just wanted to kinda so on kind of scheduling and sort of an oversight on my part, when we sort of scheduled this meeting, we've kinda put it into a gap in in a lot of the board's composition between the end of one term and the beginning of another. And the way that the composition of this committee is sort of designated, it it kinda required everyone to be here. And the advice that we got from sort of core council was to try and focus our discussion today to just make it be discussion oriented and and not to have, you know, too many action items. And so just because that, you know, we have Yeah. Just the sort of that transition and sort of, how this committee is sort of working.

But I wanted to put that out there sort of there, and that's kind of the reason why I was trying to make sure that everyone was here for, quorum reasons. And then can everyone see my agenda? Have I made it big enough for everyone? Okay. Well, sorry about that. I'll turn it back over to you.

Yeah. No. No. No. I I appreciate the context. And so, you know, one of the well, let's get to the minutes first. So, do we have a motion to approve the minutes?

So moved.

Alright. All in favor, aye. Aye. Thank you. All opposed, say nay.

Alright. Minutes have been passed. On to discussion items and the future of the ombuds program. So just as kind of a bit of a review, I wanted to, I wanted to look at the operating budget amendment that authorized this subcommittee. And it basically does two things.

It creates this subcommittee, and then it funds a purchase of service contract, a POS contract, to hire an ombud service. And then it lays out the specific mission of what that ombud service is to do. And so the the committee is intentionally designed to engage as many stakeholders as possible in creating a in in creating a work environment, in creating an improved work environment. And so then the purpose of the ombud service is to assist employees in all branches of the government in understanding and assessing options and resources to address concerns about or claims of workplace conduct that may be a violation of the employment procedures and practices set forth in the county's ordinances, employee benefit handbook or administrative practices manual, or other county policies or workplace system wide inefficiencies, in oh, sorry. Or workplace expectations and provide analyses and recommendations of policy and rule changes needed to address departmental or system wide inefficiencies in in person training related to processes and procedures of county employment.

So the ombud service is meant to address systemic issues and not individual complaints under the purview of the dispute resolution processes set forward in the EBH, the civil service ordinance, and collective bargaining agreements. So I just wanted to sort of frame our discussion in sort of the purposes of what this committee and service were set up to do. And I guess I'll sort of pause there to say, you know, that we we've kinda divided this discussion into two parts, the program itself, and then the future of this committee. It may be difficult to separate those two, but we at least have them as separate discussion items. So I guess I'll pause there and see if anyone else has comments.

Eric, can you speak to So you you mentioned that this was created as part of the operating as an amendment, right, to the operating budget of Yep. '25. Correct? Right?

It was the '23 operating budget. Okay. So this was passed in November 22. So it was 2022 p and f o six. So

does that yeah. I guess I'm just curious about kind of from a systems perspective, you know, how does that so given obviously the the financial situation, you know, the funding was reduced greatly, but as long as there are dollars there, does that imply that the program, although underfunded to continue doing what it was what it had done before, is still operational? I mean, I guess I'm curious where you know, is it sunset because of that, or as long as there's some money, it's not? I'm just curious what that

Yeah. Looks like. You know you know, I'm sure it it I think this is something we need a little bit of clarity probably from corp council on, about what happens here. But my understanding is that until this line item is removed from the budget, that it continues to exist under its terms. And so this line item hasn't been removed and defunded, So it has some amount of money left in it, $15,000 or something like that.

And I I guess I would argue it retains its scope to accomplish all of those things with its budget. Is that the position of the department as well?

Well, I I get I I don't know really if I what the question that you're asking is, but maybe it would be useful for me to kind of respond this way. So, the funding is definitely reduced in scope. One of the things that I I had heard that the department administration was being asked to prepare in response to this committee is a proposal as to what our plan would be to go, going forward. And I do have a report that's available on that, and we could maybe turn to that if that would be sort of what the the committee is interested in hearing. Again, the I would characterize it as these are the ideas that we are thinking about doing.

We also kind of wanted it to present to this group to sort of, understand what the concerns of the committee are. And I think we depending upon within the amount of resources that we currently have available, could make adjustments to that scope in the you know, insofar as that there's things that we can accommodate within the amount of funding that we have. And so, you know, I think if if it's alright, I'll I'll kinda present that if that kinda makes sense, or does anybody else have any other questions? I don't kinda wanna monopolize the discussion here.

I think for me, one of the questions is despite the the the financial concerns obviously limit resources, but that the committee and the program, I think, still are tasked with doing the same you know, the the mission is still the same regardless of whether the funding is is there. I I get the logistical issues that that creates, but I think the mandate is still the mandate. Right? I mean, that that's kinda where I where I feel.

Yeah. I guess this is where I was confused as to how do I what supervisor Glaser's question is is that, you know, does our oversight I think oversight is still there. I I don't disagreeing with that. But I think given that the nature of the the program will have to slightly change, I think some shifts in expectation are somewhat reasonable because, like, if we don't have a full 100 and, you know, $50,000 contract that's out there, it's not, you know, expecting sort of the same level it's is not doesn't seem reasonable. So I guess that's where I I would rather to kinda just present what our thoughts and thinking are than try and kinda have a a more you know, like, does this notion change about what our service oversight is?

I think, sure. We still have some oversight.

Yeah. I guess I'd like to hear how the department is is thinking about this issue. I have I have some thoughts of my own recognizing, that I think we can accomplish a lot of these goals as long as the stakeholders involved in this subcommittee are, you you know, sort of willing to address these in turn. And it might take longer than if we had a dedicated person, to digging through these issues, but, you know, it's possible that it's to our benefit, to maybe take it a little slower and, you know, be a little bit more cautious about how we look at systemic issues.

Okay. So with that, I'll just kinda present. This is what Mhmm. The department administration's proposed plan is sort of going forward. So couple things.

First is that employer relations is working on or maybe already has. I'm I'm not I wasn't able to check on where the status of this was, to getting an inbox that's set up for sort of employees to reach out if they have ombuds concerns. And then if there are and some kind of concerns that an employee didn't wanna email about or rather would speak to over phone and felt that they needed a, you know, like a direct kind of person to sort of reach out to and sort of ask that Amy Utzig, our human resources director, will be there to sort of receive those concerns if an employee wanted to speak directly with an individual. And then from there, employee relations would sort of triage what the employee's ask is to try and figure out what what the best solutions are. So we have available right now.

They used to be our well, they are our employee assistance program. And then there's extra funding that's available to in addition to augment this. And that is with our employee assistance programs called All One Health that have a number of available services that are available to employees, including the ability to kinda, you know, meet, mediate, and sorta have sort of discussions. They're also like, if an employee kinda needs some kinda counseling, they they have some of those services available. So employee release relations would triage, you know, like, the ask is and then try and connect the employee to the right appropriate resource.

And if that means to engage All One Health, they used to be known as FEI behavioral health, but then they would work on doing that. And then occasionally too, employee relations might also be able to offer some direct advice if that's something the employee wanted to be able to hear, or employee relations would be able to, you know, help mediate or arrange a group mediation or facilitation of that if that's asked, or maybe we bring in All One Health to help do those type of things. You know, all of those things are on the table, and it's really kind of using this employee relations inbox to try and triage what sort of the needs and the asks are, particularly but maybe if there's, like, a request for other sort of training, then we use, we take a look at what other kind of training is asked and try and figure out what the best way of providing that to be. In addition to all of that, employee relations is planning on sharing, at an upcoming managers meeting, how supervisors can sort of best support employees. They're also then, going to provide some detailed description for supervisors, to be able to describe to their employees about how they can access All One Health.

And then there will also be some additional kind of training. I'm not entirely sure, like, the how far that training is gonna be disseminated. It could be shared with everyone. I don't really remember, but I know that we are working on some additional kind of training on that topic that will be provided. So those are the rough sort of outlines of the plan that we've put together.

We'd be interested in hearing everyone's sort of thoughts and if there are gaps, shortcomings, other things that we could do to augment that plan to make it work better. There are a couple things that I just wanted to articulate just while, you know, we're out there. So, like, the we do kinda have a view that there are some mediations that are occurring now sort of without the involvement of the ombuds office or without All One Health. There's been a lot of interaction between employees and sort of the managers that that, you know, have you have been broached to organizations, and they have been trying to coordinate, you know, how do we talk about some of these things and doing strategic mediation sessions that are department by department basis, and then they're not kind of bubbling up for everyone to sort of hear about because I think there's been a good collab collective effort to try and address those circumstances. And then, you know, one other thing that we did wanna be able to share is that, you know, the decision to kind of reduce the funding in this line from a contracted sort of POS service wasn't really intended to be, you know, like, an indicative assessment of sort of the quality of sort of that POS service.

But, you know, we had to make difficult funding choices in that budget, and this was one of those difficult funding choices that we made. And we prioritized reducing that sort of funding line over cutting sort of any other kind of, like, full time positions in the department administration. It it's it was a difficult budget that we had last time, but, unfortunately, we had to make some difficult choices. And and, unfortunately, this is one of the ones that was made.

Thanks, Nick.

Any thoughts, questions? I have a few, but I'll see if there are other thoughts first. Matt or supervisor of all time?

That's fine. I guess I know, you know, when you when you take the money away from the program, it always kind of indicates you know, I know I know you just said that wasn't really intended, Nick, but I think it's it's certainly sends a message to to folks that were utilizing it. And is the programs that you just mentioned that are in place, is is there a a sort of a feeling amongst employees that it's that it's there's an independence of it and a there's a is it there's there's a feeling of anonymity when they said that there won't be, you know, angry repercussions. Mean, I know that's always been an issue, across sort of the whole the whole county heard it over time on the board from different from from employees in different departments. So it's not so what what I'm gonna ask is what we have right now, is it do we think it's sufficient to at least meet the needs?

And then you just said just to add this, Nick, you said something about mediation going on. How is that being conducted then? I guess it was I know that person wasn't really necessary a mediator. She could be, but she that wasn't necessarily her primary role.

So the mediation that is occurring now, there were a couple that departments did sort of contract with Diana to kinda do that and Well, extending the contract. So I know that has existed in some circumstances. I also believe that it is occurring in some circumstances without her involvement. And so and those are just because the parties have just decided that it was better to sort of talk about the issue and try to see if they could work together. In some of those cases, I think employee relations is a part of that facilitation.

In others, it might just be direct kind of engagement with the employees and the manager. There are just I know that it has been going on, and it is different in all of those circumstances. And so it it's hard to make a kinda generalization about that.

Sure. I just I just say that in terms of Go ahead.

Meeting the needs, we we feel like this is a good kind of way to get people connected with resources that could be able to help connect employees with other ways of, you know, other services that are available, I I think it's a good use of the resources that we have. I don't know if it completely answers some of your concerns about, like, can they be anonymous? Like, I I I don't really know how to make that happen because an employee has to kinda reach out somehow. And we put it to a generalized employee relations inbox and to put it with our human resources professionals that are trained and have sort of discretion involved in everything that they do from processing, you know, medical information with FMLA requests to overseeing any part of or or being a part of the team that helps facilitate ADA requests or hearing an employee's sort of personal circumstances about, you know, other concerns that they have. Our employee relations team is is trained to kind of understand that discretion that they need to have.

And so we felt it was sort of the best resource that we could offer on that.

Right. So okay. Just let me ask this. Has it been utilized? Do we have any kind of just just aren't people just contacting?

Well, I'm not certain how we're we wanted we didn't wanna get too far down the road with this plan where the committee sort of gave us the, like, any kind of feedback. Because if there are opportunities to to or or areas where the committee could see where we could try to make improvements to that service, I think we are interested in sort of hearing that and figuring out ways that we could collaboratively try and and enhance those services.

Okay. But that's been in put in place already. Right? I mean, even before we started the. I was gonna

say, So like we've had a organization's program that has been around long before that, and they have a number of sort of great services that are available to employees. And part of what we're trying to do with this is also in addition to any of the ombuds like services that they would offer is just make kind of employees more aware of the employee assistance program that is offered through All In Health as

well. Okay.

If I could just respond to I guess I Yeah. The supervisor of Aldrin, you know, some the the concern is, I I think even in the ombuds reports, you know, I think part of the the the independence of it, right, is important, and I and I understand, know, you the administration's thought that, you know, employee relations is kind of the next most reasonable kind of backstop to that. But, ultimately, I I I think that there are gonna be some of those concerns about, you know, independence and, you know, how those systems work. And that, you know, I think that was kind of the whole genesis of this whole program, right, was to have someone that was in an independent office that could think about some of those big systems questions. And so I I think that the ombuds report and some of those recommendations would be a really good place to start for the committee to be thinking about some of those systemic recommendations.

I feel like to to have had those reports written and whatnot and then to not to not act on them, you know, and and when chair of Glaser was reading kind of the charge, you know, I feel like we've moved away from some of that with some of the ombuds report where it's kinda more on a case by case basis where some of that initial kinda mission was to think about the systemic issues and policy and practice changes that should happen to address those. So I think that would be a good place for the committee to keep pushing.

Other thoughts?

You had some more questions?

Other thoughts. Yeah. I mean, from, you know, my point of view, I would I would order I would echo some of the comments, that have happened that I think, you know, the I I understand, you know, the need for the the the difficult budget situation. I also appreciate the administration's wanting to, you know, find something internal that can start to address some of the same issues. I I I share some of the concerns about about the perception of objectivity by users of the system.

Right? That that that there may be a fear that, you know, that trying to go to a system, you know, trying to go to the system that you're trying to fix to fix the system, can sometimes feel fruitless. But I I think if administration is is engaged in the effort, then, you know, I don't think it has to inherently be an external process. But I do think that that there need to be efforts to ensure that the that the goals of the program are being met. And and those include, you know, trying to get at the systemic issues that are causing a lot of the problems in the first place.

And so that includes, in some way, measuring and iterating on process improvements in in anywhere that the that employees, you know, come into interaction with each other and with management. So the ombuds program as defined was a proposal for how to accomplish some of these goals. It doesn't have to be the process. I I believe in, you know, iterative programs and, you know, build some build something that everybody is that that that everybody's on board with that still accomplishes those goals. And, you know, I think this provides a reporting mechanism that that mimics or attempts to mimic much of what the sort of mechanics of the ombuds was doing.

But what I don't want to get lost is that sort of process improvement purpose of the ombuds as well. So it's not just about providing the service, but it's about understanding why people are there seeking the service in the first place and attempting to address those underlying issues in some sort of systematic way. And sometimes that might mean, you know, looking at ways in which we can have discussions with each other that, you know, that might be difficult sometimes. And that might require executive sessions, that might require confidential sessions. That might require, you you know, limited information until we can until we can provide more, until we can provide more and better information.

So I understand that necessarily the work of this committee is sensitive. But I think if the administration's willing to to explore these issues, then I think we can still meet the the the goals that are outlined in this resolution. So I know, you you know, Nick, I you know, I don't know that, like, you're not the person that's gonna say, I agree with you, Jeff. I I think that's exactly what we should do. So I I appreciate that.

But, know, I think this is where the conversation about sort of the future of this committee in particular because I see the role I mean, it it's the role of the program that you've established to sort of do the do that work and to be effective in trying to implement these, but then it becomes the role of this committee to be that oversight. And so I'd like to think about how we can use this committee to have those discussions.

So and maybe you can respond to that question. One of the things that we we if the general approach is something that the committee is sort of willing to try for a bit, one of the, I things that we could do is, you know, after a period of time of trying to use this way of sort of responding to things, we couldn't have employee relations sort of come back and sort of, you know, describe sort of what activities, like how many requests did they have come in? Did they tria you know, like, how you know, frequently did they triage some of these types of things? You know, how frequently did they reach out to All One Health? How many times did they ask for mediation?

We could try and provide some kind of numbers and some report that then would be used to sort of describe some of the utilization of those kinds of services and how that's sort of going. I'm not I don't know if we'll ever get to any kind of evaluation and trying, you know, like, comments as to how system is sort of functioning just because, though that's not really the sort of purview of sort of that organization. And for me, that was always a difficult, or just ask responding to my sort of personal capacity was always kind of a a difficult thing to sort of tease apart. And I get the idea of, like, well, you're kinda doing this. We'd like to get some kind of qualitative evaluation at the same time.

Those things were difficult because we didn't charge the ombuds office without was going and conducting kind of, like, qualitative, you know, like, information gathering on that type of service. Didn't expect that the ombuds were sort of getting fully and complete representative samples of of sort of the county and trying to get information that then would be, you know, robust evidence to try and use as to a way to try and make other sort of processes. And so, you know, like, that aspect to me was always difficult to figure out how to handle because it wasn't couched in sort of robust sort of qualitative evidence. But, you know, we could, you know, provide cursory information to sort of, like or maybe in-depth information about, like, how the, you know, like, how those services have been used and, what types of engagement that employee relations is is getting into.

Yeah. And I I think one of the things that I I would like to see as well and one of the things that I think the the call of this committee gets to and the call of the the service gets to is that sort of meta analysis. Right? That sort of sitting back and, to some extent, navel gazing and saying, you know, is is what we're doing working? And you you're right.

I don't know that we had well defined metrics. I don't think that means that we should stop. I think that means we need to just figure out what the well defined metrics or even if not well defined, what what basic levels of of language we're gonna use to to discuss issues. And I think that, you know, being able to to step back and have that process improvement discussion, is part of what this committee needs to do. And and I appreciate that it's that it's hard, and, you know, that it may not align perfectly with the program is built.

I would agree with that. But I think in terms of the goals of this committee, I think we need to make at least some sort of objective. I think we need to make some sort of attempt at figuring out how we how we measure process how we measure whether these processes are being effective at what they're designed to do. And I I I agree with you know, over the years, there have been numerous discussions about how this overlaps with the meet and confer process, about how these issues overlap with the, you know, with the handbook for the administrative guidelines versus, you know, how all of these things interact. And and and I fully appreciate that complication.

But I also think that there's we're clearly hearing from both employees and management that these processes aren't serving their purposes. And I would like to figure out how and why these processes are failing. And and without judgment, like, this is not saying, like, we're bad people because these processes are failing. Like, it it's about recognizing that we can be better, and, you know, not necessarily assigning blame. So I guess that's sort of where I I would like to see discussions headed here and, again, appreciate that these are sort of sensitive and difficult discussions.

Shannon's got her hand raised.

Yeah. Shannon.

So my question, I've when you say the processes are failing, what specifically are you referring to? Because the the mission is very broad. And, as you may or may not know, the job that I am currently in is an employee advocate. And a lot of the mission of the ombudsperson is something that I do every single day in the job that I'm doing, which is helping people understand the handbook or the ordinance or the the administrative practices manual, making sure that they know when they need to apply for FMLA or what other things are available to them either through the county or through WRS or through other resources. And have I have done mediations over the years as well, and I've also, you know, sat down with employees and discussed issues and and just helped them work through the problems.

So I guess when you say the the the system was failing, I I guess do you mean from from what aspect? Because I feel like the work that has been done through employee relations already has been very successful. Although when I retired June 5, this position is being eliminated. So not only are you going to have to fill the role of what the ombudsperson was doing, I'm assuming ER is going to take on the role of what I was doing and Yep. Making sure that people get information. But I will tell you that it's been a full time job all the way along, and, very beneficial to the employees of Dayton County. So I guess I guess I'll start with that question is where do you see the the program failing in the past?

I I guess I'm not I'm not assigning blame, and, you know, I'm I'm I certainly understand that as you you know, that that your role is as, you you know, the employee, adviser, employee assistant. So the the question that I think this committee has is, is that the right approach to employee service? Right? Not necessarily is Shannon doing a good job.

No. No.

It that's not what that's not And

I and I wasn't going there because Maybe I mean, I'm do feel

maybe the the the role, I think, of the committee is to sort of even sit in an abstraction above that and to say, you know, are the processes that we have is is this approach of having an employee assistant person, being a a central point of contact? Is that is that serving our needs, or can we better serve the needs in a in a different way? Or are these you know, are the processes of, you know, of arbitration or mediation that we have in place, are those effective? Are employees feeling like they have insight into how the processes are working and how investigations are being conducted and how questions are being asked? Do people feel like they're being empowered to to improve the workplace without feeling like they're being put upon for complaining.

And not to say that not to say that they not to say that in an absolute sense that they are or they aren't. I just think it's fairly clear that we've heard that employees feel that these things are occurring. And so I think it's incumbent on this organization or on this committee to how, to better understand that as these issues are raised, are they real issues? Fully understanding that they may not be real issues. Right?

That this might just be employees who are complaining about bad outcomes. That's possible. But to the extent that issues are being raised that we should be looking into, I think we should not be afraid to look into them and to better understand whether the the the county is creating an environment where everybody feels empowered, to improve to improve their workplace.

Sure. And, first of all, let me start off by I was not taking that as a personal criticism at all.

Thank you.

I'm glad. I'm not the ombudsperson. I'm an employee advocate, and so I did not put myself in the same role. I just wanted you to understand that the roles do cross over and provide some of these exact same services. So I was not having it be a a Shannon issue at all.

Yeah.

I am. For sure. So and, I mean, while I do understand that, I mean, I'll be the first person to say that every employee should have a voice and every employee should have someone they can talk to about a workplace issue, whether that be a manager, whether that be, you know, the the lowest paid person in Dane County. It doesn't matter. Everyone should have someone they can go to to discuss an issue and, be able to, feel like at least they're being heard. Whether it can be resolved or whether the resolution is to their favor, that's to be seen. Right? But, at least let them have that voice. I do you know, I'm just being honest with you. I do worry what happens after June, when I retire because I don't know that people will, first of all, know where to go.

We don't have the ombuds. We don't have my position any longer. They'll have an email to go to. That's that's fine, except that people also don't know who's reading that email. And so I'm I'm just putting it out there that that I I agree that something needs to happen and people need to have a voice. I just worry about about where, going forward, this all goes.

Yeah. I I agree with you. And and I think that's just part of the conversation that we have to have together.

Fair enough.

What other thoughts?

Jeff, you had something. Do we do you think after what you have been saying that different things are now different systems are now in place that at least they exist that didn't exist before? And like you were saying, the ombuds is just a vehicle or a way to have that occur, to have that system sort of move. Where it like, earlier you said, you know, it's in the budget. It's still there.

It's still nothing a placeholder. So we could I mean, this committee could certainly meet maybe I mean, it only meets, what, quarterly anyway. I mean, just to see, you know, what ideas from a budget standpoint could go forward. Obviously, we don't know where the budget's gonna be. Is this, you know, is this a high highest priority to restore? Maybe some people think it is, and I will just say this is a luxury anyway, and it shouldn't be looked at that. But is there something else in place that can that can replace it?

Well, I I've described what our proposal is to replace what the functions of the ombuds were from sort of our view into how to connect people with those services. And I think that I've also kind of described a way in which this committee could be involved in hearing a report from employee relations about sort of what that activity is. But I I I would kind of caution about, you know, know, like a full kinda RION reimagining kinda thing because, like, we're not here to kind of, you know, fully redo or redesign the whole work of what it means to be sort of the human resources department in Dane County. That's sort of well outside of this committee sort of scope. I mean, we're happy to hear thoughts and suggestions anytime about how we can improve our HR sort of services.

But, you know, like, okay. We'll redesign it to function this way. That that might be a bit of a stretch. But we'll we'll hear, obviously, some of those kind of concerns and feedback. I mean, I would go along with also Shannon too to try to just be, you know, like, what what processes are we clear or are we concerned about?

Because that will help. It's hard to respond to some of those questions in the abstract. You know? Like, if there are clear processes that that we're interested or or we feel like need some other attention, then we can focus on those particular things. But if it's just sort of, like, a general unease, it's hard to target those things from, you know, a general, I think this isn't going well. It's like, okay. Yeah.

I I mean, it would almost be like it'd be nice to have a outside third party whose role was to collect data about how processes at the county are working and then make a regular report about how those processes are going and sort of the underlying problems. Well So I I mean, I I guess what I'm what I'm arguing arguing is that

I guess I I do wanna get before you get too far in that, like, I never saw Define's role as commenting on sort of some of our establishment processes. Because what what I shared with at the last meeting at the grievance process is something that is a very specific thing that has defined timelines that is discussed regularly between both parties through some of that sort of meet and confer process. And the process that is used there is one that is we both have agreed upon and have, you know, come to terms that this is how we're gonna handle some of those kinds of things. And a lot of the commentary that Diana would have is, like, people feel like this isn't working all that well, but was never involved in any of those discussions anyway. So, like and wouldn't be you know, she's just reporting on what other people felt like.

So, like, she isn't there to investigate some of those processes. She's there to be a resource, to some of our employees about how to, you know, be an informal way of trying to resolve some of those processes. And that that's a thought where we, from the administration, felt that the the onboard service could be a valuable resource as it was an informal way for people to try and resolve some of those problems, not as, like, someone who would be here to be a third party referee on the grievance process between two parties that already had some ground rules that they had already established between themselves. So

Yeah. I don't think that was ever the the the goal of the program. I think the goal of the program was to listen to employees that were going through the process to understand where they were finding friction and hearing that employees felt intimidated. They didn't feel empowered to raise these issues in the first place. They felt like the issues weren't gonna go anywhere, and these were things that, you know, that the ombuds raised in, in both of her reports.

They were also things that the that the zoo investigation raised, which was the original import behind all of this to begin with. And so, you know, I I think I'm not saying that it's the role of the ombuds to say that this or that process is or isn't working. The role of the ombuds is to say, hey. People don't seem to be liking this process very much, and then it becomes incumbent on us to evaluate the truth of that matter. And then if it's true, come up with a better way of doing it.

And maybe that's changing things through meet and confirm. Maybe it's just being more transparent in how the process goes. You don't have to change anything about the actual process itself, but it's in understanding the nature of the actual problem. Is this thing actually a problem? And you have to be willing to to ask that question and be willing to listen to the answer.

And I think that's what's been I I think that's what's been frustrating is that over time, you know, we hear from employees, and maybe it has, you know, maybe it has basis, maybe it doesn't. But we consistently hear the same things over time that they don't feel empowered to bring complaints, that they don't feel like those complaints are going anywhere. They don't feel like they have transparency into any into the complaint or even, disagreement processes. So, whether formal or informal. And so my goal here isn't to say it shouldn't run that way.

It should run this way. It's to surface the complaints so that we, the administration, and and the board together can look at it and say, how can we make this better? That's it. It's how can we make this better? Recognizing that it can always be better, that it's never gonna be perfect, and that we can work together to figure out what things are important and what things aren't.

I'm not saying that we should explore everything. I'm not saying that it's the role of this committee to oversee the meet and confirm process. It's not what I'm implying at all. But I do think it's incumbent on us to surface issues for the administration for the for the county to consider as process inefficiencies that are creating difficult work environments.

Go ahead, Shannon.

So one of my concerns about one of the things that's always concerned me about the ombuds contract or the or the way it was set up was I mean, I understand there needs to be a level of an anonymity offered to individuals to come forward. But when the county is totally blocked in the process of knowing who, what department, what's going on, any of those things, I think that that makes it very difficult for, the county to be able to move forward to resolve those issues. I mean, we have counties so many different, departments within the county that if somebody if five people come forward and meet with the ombudsperson and say, we feel like we're being, treated poorly or, if there's workplace harassment by our supervisor, whatever the case may be, she's reporting that as five people that came in and said there was, you know, this potential of, workplace harassment. Well, where? Well, I can't tell you that.

Well, know, what give us more specifics, so I can't tell you that. That makes it impossible, in my opinion, for the county to really work hard at fixing the problems. I think that if you're moving forward with with, an ombuds contract, whatever, there has to be some level of back and forth with someone at the county so that they can, you know, more successfully navigate through the the process to make sure to be able to resolve a problem and have it be reported accurately as this is a complaint against one person instead of five people complaining about an issue. Those are just my thoughts.

No. I I agree with you, Shannon. And, know, I I think that yeah. I agree with you a 100%. And, know, we need to be willing to we need to be willing to have those discussions together and recognize that, you know, sometimes there's not there's nothing there.

Right? Sometimes, you know, sometimes it's a thing, and sometimes it's not a thing. And so I I I think that it was recognized that one of the needed improvements of this program was some form of higher level confidential review for exactly the reason you're talking about, Shannon, that it's it's difficult to have discussions about real improvement without getting into concrete details. And one of the challenges that we heard in that was, you know, how can we how can we introduce proxies into the conversation because the parties involved in the conversation don't necessarily trust each other. And so I I don't know what the right answer is, but I think we all need to just keep having the conversation conversation and trying things and, you know, does this work?

No. That doesn't work. Let's try something else. So sorry. Arielle, saw you had your hand up.

Yeah. And I guess I'm just kinda speaking to your point. Like, the first recommendation from the 2025, report that we just saw last month was systems for managerial feedback from direct reports. Right? And so, you know, I think the ombuds, you know, given the experience of what she saw coming in the door, you know, I think kind of saw this as a systemic issue.

And, yeah, exactly the kind of the point you're raising is that, you know, five people spread out with the same concern, you know, or or, you know, all across the whole the whole county is is different than those that same concern being voiced by five people in one unit with a certain experience. And so I I think some kind of general data collection, like like what what she's spoke to in in the report here is exactly the kind of thing that would help you tease out one versus the other. You know? And I think the responses to one versus the other are clearly, you know, would need to be very different. And I think that's probably for that reason, that was that was her her first recommendation, of her list of maybe four or five, I think.

So yeah.

Alright.

Other thoughts? I mean, I guess what I would say, Nick, is that the the proposal is appreciated and the the the effort is appreciated. So I'd be I'll be curious to hear how the the administration's rollout of this goes. You know, how how and whether it it changes in significant ways as you roll it out and it has shifting needs. So, I mean, I guess maybe then, you know, the role of this this committee is just to continue to have this conversation and to evaluate the efforts, to to hear how the administration is is looking at these issues and and thinking about process improvement.

Yeah. I think that would be alright. So, yeah, just check back in at some kinda quarterly basis to try and hear where we're going with this.

We'll need to get some appointments to this committee in order to make that happen in order for that to happen. Yeah. So we need to get some appointments, and then get a next meeting on the book on the book. So I I'm a little reluctant to set a meeting today, because we don't know who the appointments are gonna

be. Mhmm.

But I would say that we should prioritize getting appointments made and then, you know, get a next meeting on the books for, I don't know, three months from now.

Yeah. I just suggest that the finance puts that on their agenda, not the first agenda, maybe the second agenda. Yep. So that's right in front of them, and they can sort of move on. Not not worried about a date right now. Yep.

Yeah. We'd be looking at, like, an August, or September meeting. So it'll give us sort of the summer to put a subcommittee together.

Well, Nick, what's already in place then? The employee relations is already in place. Right?

Yeah. Well, they are. The email inbox, I'm not certain how widely distributed that aspect is about, so there's a idea and a plan to sort of coordinate those things. The training that I had described hasn't happened yet. They're working on putting that together. I think it's happening later this month. It might be later later, but, I think it's later this month. So some of those activities are, you know, being worked on and being planned. They're just not like, we haven't done all of that training, and then we haven't heard any of the feedback from that training. So, you know yeah.

So, obviously, yes, employee relations is here, and, and we've had All One Health, for a while, and we have a number of, we engage with All One Health on, you know, a reasonable frequent basis. So, you know, that exists. It's just the okay. We're using this. We're gonna have, like, an ombud sort of inbox and sort of have a triage plan depending upon what are the asks that sort of come in. You know, we haven't gotten around to, you know, testing that yet. I mean, it it's a process. But

All I was gonna say was that would be sort of, like, the focus of the first meeting. Right? Yep. Well Where you know, updating where we where it's at. And

I guess the the other thought that I had too is that we we could come back to this committee and just sort of, you know, in some manner of time and sort of share, like, these are many things that got into the inbox. This is how we triage them. You know, this is how many times we engaged to One Health and or these are the other trainings that were requested, and these are the other mediations that employee relations participated in, or these are the employee mediations that occurred department to the employees so that, like, they weren't even involved in those type of things. So yeah.

Right. So so something that's moving forward. So the next meeting, there'll be something sort of for discussion purpose too. That's always kinda suggestion suggestion.

Alright. I mean, I guess the one kind of I don't wanna prolong this kind of discussion because it seems like we're chiming to a natural kind of conclusion. But if there are other ideas that members of the committee would have that they would feel would be useful for us to kinda do, it would be all ears to listen to those suggestions.

Sure. And then, you know, that's perfect for the next group. Ari well, Sean, you said you're leaving in June. You're retiring in June. Right? So, Al, that's what you said. That's being eliminated. I don't know what the makeup of this committee is gonna be, and that might have to be looked at by finance too. So, Ariel, does your term run out now? Or

I'm not I'm not sure. Yeah. I don't I don't know. I think that, yeah, when the committee was was was created, there was a request to have a employee represented employee, and and I volunteered for that role. So, yeah, I don't know that there's an end date necessarily.

Right. But Well, let's say that's just those I'm not taking it to a meeting. That seems to think things to think about for for our first meeting.

Committee's got five defined members under the Right. Resolution that authorized it. Three of the members are just designees and continue to serve until a designee or a different sort of individual is in that role. And two of those individuals are selected as a a joint appointment and are done with sort of the board's term. The board's term has ended, which is sort of the the thing that I was referring to at the beginning of the meeting. So that's why we have to kinda work on trying to get reappointments figured out. Well, if we don't have anything else to discuss, would a German be in order? Nope.

Yeah. Well, you yeah. I mean, that that's the next step. But I just wanted to personally thank everyone for the opportunity of sitting on this committee and working with you through this process. I do think that it's important work. And I just wanna say I appreciate you all and all the help you've given me through the years as well.

Thank you, Shannon. We really appreciate your work.

Everything all the years that we've worked together in different spots.

Excellent. Well, thank you. I would take a meeting. I would take a motion to adjourn.

So moved.

Unless anybody is opposed, we are adjourned.