Zoning Board of Appeals - Regular Meeting

So the items the agenda they each will have a public hearing during which anybody's welcome to come up and uh ask a question or speak express your opinions on it. If you do um please uh sign in with your name, address um and and which item so that I can help capture that in the minutes. Um anybody have any questions before we get started? Um Give me just a second here. Uh that turns out to be this appealing zone officer's decision that he beats minor side planner. And so you meets the kind of we'll shrink that up and right. Um, and so I'm going to suggest that uh while corporation council's outside that we too

good evening everybody and welcome to the June 23rd, 2025 5 being of the uh the courtroom zoning hearing board. We're going to have a couple of different adjustments to the agenda that you have. Uh agenda number 27 Land Street. We're going to listen to that one first if that's if anybody's here to speak to that one. Welcome to come on up to the uh to the podium and let us hear from you. Well, I'm the owner. Yes. Yeah. So, I want to put a 15 by30 above ground pool in the backyard. I think I showed I got sketches and everything and everything will be inspected by Atlantic Inland Electrical. Y seven. Are you? Yes. Y triangle or eight? I have seven. We have two. Yeah, we've got a seven Randall and an eight Randle. Randle. Oh, yes. Two of us here. Yes. Seven Randall area variance for installation of a ground wall. Anything to say about that, Roy? Or just No. number one cut. Anybody else have anything to bring up about seven installation of an above ground? Other than we know where to go. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect day to bring that. Uh hearing none, I'm going to entertain a motion to close the public hearing. Motion has been made to close

the public hearing and I will second. Uh all in favor say I motion public hear you can sit down. We want to discuss this any particular comment on it or anything go ahead or questions. zoning board of appeals and considered and discussed the following area. Varian factors person with the city code. The following factors will be discussed and answered. Whether an undesirable change would be produced in the character of neighborhood or detriment nearby properties will be created by the granting of the barrier variance. You see things backyard is a little gold. No. Unless anybody has anything uh question number two whether the benefit sought by the applicant can be achieved by some method feasible for the applicant to pursue other band area varants you know again I think is the only one group and that's us whether the requested area variance is substantial believe whether the proposed variance will have an adverse effect or impact on the physical environmental conditions of the neighborhood district or Middle East whether the alleged difficulty was self created which consideration shall be relevant to the decision of the board but shall not necessarilyclude the granting of the area variance and people go yes

addition. So we have no no four nos and yes I'll make the motion motion made to approve as is as presented and uh second for a second. All in favor signify by saying I I motion carries. You can get everything you need from Andy here and then uh should we do should we do a rand next? Oh yeah, let's go. Agenda item uh our next agenda item is now is agenda item number three has been moved number two. So we're going to do for South Franklin area variance request. Chris Barber since the variance the purpose of placing a pre-fabricated shed in the rear side yard here by had that loyalist. Yeah. Yeah. So I this is just taking care of some stuff. It's um it's a big thing. Yep. Conformity front yard setback for best pre-existing pre-existing conditions.

Nobody here to speak to this. I guess I will make a motion to close the public hearing for Franklin second. Second's been made and all in favor signatures there. 8. That's not a code issue or anything like that. I guess it is. Look at the existing right on the property. That's in strip. It's right on track. Yeah. Okay. Just a mother in a long line of taking care. He's just invis. Yeah, that's all. Actually, we should we side yard or front yard. Is that It's right here. I think it's right here. That's all right. Get me good at this.

All right. Just recap this. It's two various restrict code and householding rather and uh front yard setback and foroot vegetated strip there's any questions or anything like that we have certain questions and then we have zone of those the following test will be considered by the zoning Board of Appeals to determine the variance that the granting or denial of the area variance. Number one, whether an undesirable change will be produced in the character neighborhood or a detriment to nearby properties that will be created by the granting of the area variance. We didn't hear from anybody or so no on that one that whether benefit by the applicant can be achieved by some benefit feasible for the applicant to pursue other than variance. No. again who's pre-existing conditions and those are the those are the uh you counter when you come before this whether the requested area variance is substantial I think it's good size shed however I want to note that but it's a nothing that I think is is out of the ordinary for that size of a lot relative whether the proposed variances will have an adverse effect or impact on the physical environmental conditions of the CL district and then lastly uh whether the alleged difficulty was self-created which consideration shall be relevant to the decision of the board but shall not necessarily preclude the granting of the area varian yes on that he's correcting existing conditions uh which can be done by anybody but not necessarily for the the

condition of the building. So with that I'll entertain a motion to approve. Um make a motion to approve as submitted. Motion's been made and and for a second the second has been made that made by forcel Franklin area variance and all in favor signify the state I I motion carries. All right. So, next agenda item on the is 8 Randall Street across from seven, I presume. And that's the implementation. Yeah. This is the neighbor of Yes. Thank you. Yes. Across the street, but Yes. Yes. Um I am Rebecca Silvo. I'm the owner of Manville Street and I'm proposing to widen a short portion of my driveway by 7 ft. Um I have had estimates from First Choice. Um I went to my neighbors and have them signed at a station and I have pictures if you need those to see how it looks now. And uh yeah, you certainly are welcome to bring those up for us or have them know better. Here's where she's not going to be as correct. Okay. And um also I don't want anything else in the area that you guys don't have. No, no, that's that's good to

good reference for us. Thank you for sharing that with the school made note that on what's been submitted there the uh your requested anticipated when I put the application inations copies of it six members asking if they felt it would you know be detrimental the questions that you asked and they inside that would be a positive is is there any we often get these uh requests for accessibility issues. Is this is that it's more just a convenience store and aesthetics. Yes. Yes. Great. All right. But we'll uh we'll have you keep those and if uh something you know I will just keep them handy. Uh we'll discuss how we how we go through it and whatever we might hear and I don't know if there's anybody else here to speak to that but thanks for putting those together. Appreciate it doing your homework. Very good. These are existing existing front pardon. So get back there. Yeah. Um just typically you got to do the eight only as far as 8 foot distance. Yeah. Got to make sure it doesn't block egress egress and ingress in the house or fire department. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's an important consideration. We've actually had that come up on duplexes for you know in that emergency form which it looks like you're going to

be you just area there of assistance. Yeah, it should. Yeah, it's kind of in between the driveway and the current walkway. So I it doesn't seem to me like it would, you know, get in the way of eress. Yeah. the also probably closest to the house too. You don't want to be coming up right up next to any any structures. Yes. Oh, there you go. Yeah, that's a that's that this I'm going to show you a picture here if you want to take it. This is one of them that we if you submit that you'll have to it's up to you but when you you are not really what I'm saying the limited area that you have and we see this a lot you know, six feet away. You know, you you know, you have to watch what you park there. You're going to you're going to be to get that recognize that you extend over the sidewalk because any any lease come by. Yeah. Pictures that show. So, here's the sidewalk. Here's the current car. So, it would be kind of just not see how you got this right here. Yes. Okay, that's it. Are you keeping that vegetation over? So, right. This is this clearly. Okay, that's first choice. But in the driveway to do that part. Okay. All righty. All

right. It was confusing, but I like the idea as defines different tenure. All right. Any other questions or anything like that? Thank you for all the things in there. The only thing I would also suggest in this case that you do vote for the variance that the the the survey map is updated to show that that is now group part. Did you understand that? Um it's something that I think you can edit your existing survey back. Okay. And you can do this, you know, which you need to hire a surveyor, but you have to. Okay. So, you might be able to get a surveyor just to write on there, edit, and he's edited that you've now added that. Okay. And then he'll put a little stamp on it. you've got to charge five bucks or whatever. But you you want to make it an official document so that when the next person comes in, they know someday when you sell it or use it for leverage on loan or something like that is that you see that it's efficient. You went through the official process. So and I think a surveyor often can do that. It's just all edited. You just just edit your existing document without going out there putting stakes up and and and shooting lines or anything like that. You can just edit it. That makes sense. Okay. Other questions or anything like that? I am going to make a motion to close the public hearing. Second has been made. All in favor signify by saying I. I. Okay. We go through our questions and the following task that be considered by

the zoning board of appeals to determine the variance weighing the granting or denial of the area variance request. Number one, whether an undesirable change will be produced in the character of the neighborhood or a detriment to nearby properties will be created by the granting of the area variance. I'm going to go no on that. It's a pretty uh you know thing we see in whether the benefit sought by the applicant can be achieved by someone feasible for the pursue other than area again no I think that's the way to go in there othering uh zoning issues uh whether the requested area variance is substantial no I think this is a pretty the area is limited in size anyways. cell out of them both laterally and I think that's a good good thing whether the proposed variance will have an adverse effect or impact on the physical environmental conditions in neighborhood district again no I don't believe so I'll close out with our last question whether the alleged difficulty is self created which consideration shall be relevant to the decision of the board but shall not necessarily preclude granting the area of variance have difficult with Yes, it is. So there's it's just one of those issues where somebody wants to utilize more space as against previous issues. So uh is that I think I want there is uh I will move chair to uh approve the uh area variances

area variance for eight Randall and uh the compliance with all uh other uh outstanding issues. All second. Second's been made. All in favor? Say I. I. I. Motion carries. We didn't get something from Andy and you're good up there. So, nice. Now, agenda item number four for tonight is uh we move number five to number four. That would be 10y Park Road. area variance. Michael Christine Hunt variances for the focus of the Michael Christian at all. See the way there I didn't see anything. It's just no there's nobody here. Is there anybody to speak? Anybody who wants to any comment to it who will so it's really cut and dry. Yeah. So they just wanted large the driveway as single family home, but for the sake of consistency, a single family home is a little different than two family or three family. So they're going to based on the measurements of the of the driveway, the it's going to theoretically um exceed um more than six potential vehicles. They're only allowed three wooden. Um,

it's going to be moved into the front yard 84 and you whether you're a single family or not, you're not supposed to be able to stack your vehicles. Yes. So, varian supposed to Um, did they just wanted to widen the W of the garage, but wasn't really wides the uh, and was there anything about needing additional parking even though this is a side kind of benefit of it? I don't I don't know the answer to that. I just know they're going to the going to write to the with the garage and since it's an attached garage with the house still considered the front yard by definition side by side. Yeah. So that that curve cut is on the plants in the permit cut. I don't see an issue with it, but I would

since there's potential there for six vehicles that would limit that since it is horrible. Yeah. And I wonder it's I do like it though as it kind of when it's still stacking us like side by side. Yeah. The the tree there. Oh, you have to also be careful the south next door has the same width driveway as we want. Yeah, I see that. I don't know. Okay. But if you look at the surface They're all but I addition of limiting to the vehicles. Okay, I'm gonna move to uh close the public hearing and April Park Road for a second on that second has been made. All in favor 75 is saying I I Okay, six questions. Following test will be considered by the zoning board appeals returning the variance in way the grant granting or denial of the area variance request number one whether an undesirable change will be produced in the character of the neighborhood or a detriment to nearby properties will be created by the granting of the area variance I think all is appropriate for that whether the benefits sought by the applicant can be achieved by some method feasible for the applicant to pursue other than area variance and this is the

Okay. So, no on that whether requested area variance is substantial. I don't think it's it's anything out of the ordinary. I noticed in their text of their application, they said they wanted to meet the garage, but I guess what they want is actually the dimensions of the garage. So, um I don't think that's unusual thing. probably is done all over whether the proposed variance will have an adverse effect or impact of physical environmental conditions in the neighborhood or district. Now it's a residential district and lastly again whether the cell alleged difficulty was self-created which consideration shall be relevant to the decision of the board but shall not necessarily preclude the granting of the area bearings again there I have to say yes to that one. It's inevitable as is and it certainly won't be much to ask for that. So I'll entertain a motion and Hickory Road motion's been made like for a stipulation that they don't they limit the number of dollars. Is that you? So on the exterior of the building really can't do anything about the two car inside but they should limit you and limit to no more than six. Oh yeah have six total four. Yeah four. Um so the motion read uh adopted to the area variance with the condition that no more than four will be a loud part.

Um on the exterior on the exterior of the house I've left the ex the exterior of the for long term the dead people over there. You know what I'm saying? six. That's what I was two make this uh make it take longterm parking. Um yes we say yeah we had them in you don't want to say they can't have people over no more than four vehicles may be parked on a long-term basis on a long-term basis I believe the exterior here. Yeah. Uh motion approved with condition that no more than four vehicles may be parked on a long-term basis on the exterior parentheses not inclusive of inside the garage. That motion's been I'll second. All in favor say I. I motion approved for 10 park. Sorry, you made the motion.

Uh yeah, we we can uh we Yeah, we can go to Yeah, there. So, our agenda item number six, the tonight's number five is 2628 Helm Street. All stewards and ciarians for construction of a new 36 by 12 parking area green street side of corn lot relocation with this Mr. Stewart story bought this place 10 years ago. It was a um on the corner of Elman Green Bush, big yellow place. Um built uh right around the turn of the century. Probably back in the days when they had horserawn carriages because no roof of parking. I've got right now I've got a driveway on one side on the 26 side that's but I need park. I've exhausted everything that I I've even tried to pay people in the neighborhood to let me park for parking areas and uh nobody's interested in that because of liabilities of of that legal liability. Anyway, I need a spot on the side on green bush side um where they can pull in and but when you're looking at the place, you'll have driveway on this side and driveway exactly same on this side. 13t wide that and then 36 ft long coming and the driveway is coming in off of Green Bush. There's a cement apron and it was just installed there in the last couple years.

I noticed that the you guys put in a thing about filing for curb curb permit. I'm not sure if it's really necessary. You can make that decision. I got pictures of a paper in the entrance coming in. I just need parking on that side because I got two four bedroomedroom units. Okay. And that's the only solution I would have just for parking. So the total number of parking spaces I'm sorry do you know how many for the whole area? Four. There'll be two parking spaces on the left. Yeah. Is there facing on the right there be two more? Okay. And they park in Canada just like they do on the other side. Side by side. No. I'm sorry. One right behind that. Yeah. That's the way they park on the when tenants park on the other side. Yeah, I haven't. It's because of the size of the of the building. If it was one bedroom or two bedroom, you might get away with one car parking, right? But it's they're two four bedroomedroom units. And also relocating a fence. I put a black iron fence around it. Uh I would like this. Can I approach with the pictures? Yes, please. Yes. This is the original right here. I had a fence going all the way down here over here. Just like a black one. Just like black. Knowing that I wanted to put it in there. Um I pulled it I pulled it out. So when they pull in the park, this is turns

into a black dot right here. This will all be open unless code or city wants me to. I can bring the fence back out this way. It doesn't matter. I've got the fence in my shed. Um, but I want to leave it open. So when they pull in, they can just get out of the apartment, just walk into the apartment. It's taking up dream space. I understand that. Uh this is a sidewalk right here. Small but that belongs to the apartment. It's not a citywide but here there's 30 36. Yeah. Now what it does is it's coming. This is a corner of the house. This corner right here is this fixture right right there. So I'm going to be coming out coming in from this side and green bushing and I'm going to reinstall the part or the fence by doing this quite soon. Come out and go back over the house. But it will be reinstalled that'll come out from there or here. It's 13 very simple and it goes as far as I know question about the occurren this is the entrance company. It's very wide. It's actually there's a there's a house right here. So, these people can park in my people. I have a question. Is there an ement on that drive?

Yes. Yes. Yes, there is. Okay. Your address is street and I was according to according to when I bought it. I own the whole thing but I had to give it right away to the building on the back. So I asked an attorney about it and he said yeah you can change that. It's about 10 or $15,000 and I would you would own that whole driveway and people out back their owners of that wouldn't have anywhere to park you. Attention. What about any barriers or separation from vehicles coming into this house winter time? We talked to possible fender benders with your neighbors vehicles. I don't I don't believe so, sir. So, it's very wide. Very wide apron as far as far as I don't think it be. Where would you burn snow? Is this where would you like the idea? Oh, I I do the snow. I don't I just blow snow. I do all I've got like apartments all over town. So my question is your this is is this a vehicle on your property? Yeah, that's my truck. I pulled it in there. What I how much 36 ft is I measured the length of my truck which is a Ford range. It's not the biggest truck. So I figured 18 ft per vehicle. This is the fence that I pulled out. This is the way it used to look. Now it's going to be open there. Okay. So based on that with this picture right here you're showing us of the driveway. Yes. Where does your vehicle stand from here the way it is parked right now? Is any of it in the neighbor's driveway? No. No. Not at all. This is a neighbor's vehicle right here. It's

parked there now. And if they they got the right away they can park there. You understand my concern? Sure. Something that's all I'm looking at. Yeah. It's a safety feature. Yeah, cuz you might have little kids playing in their driveway and then somebody pulls out. Well, yeah, I guess so. Those are the things I think about when I was stuck in the spot. Um I don't know what else I could do. I can't buy I can't buy any a lot of real. There's a big mill across the street, but I think that somebody's already bought it. That'd be a perfect bargain. Well, thanks for Yeah, thanks for answering my curious. I'm sure. I think it'd be very safe. I mean, I'm in a little safety business, but hey, things would be I don't think it'd be a problem. Um, it's a lot of a lot of my well it's temporary. I've done an Airbnb on one side, but that that side is for parking for Airbnb people and that's access. No, that's the other side. Well, that's the other side. Yeah, they had nothing to do with this. It's on the other side of the house. Oh, okay. So, another building. So, the this is kind of a pricey Airbnb and Portland area stuff. So, it's very rarely used. Oh, they beat that the same way the other side is in the film marathon. He's running it for 6 months. He's a a college for a coach in the college. He's going to Florida August first. So, we're probably going to do shortterm rentals like 3 months, six months. These guys

that are people that help me teach if you have a uh if it's a short-term rental or Airbnb um there is your You're you have the approval to do that? Yes. Well, yes, I do. Okay. Uh I got a notice in the or there's a lady that handles it. I can't remember her name. Well, it's the caller. I got I got another Airbnb. Yeah, that's the one I'm pretty sure that we talked about. The other one we just started that like a month ago. So, I got to notify her. These things are usually uh weekly and not weekend. Yes. Yeah. Four days is the longest we've had any long weekend. Okay. But I did notice on I got a picture out of somewhere. There's my phone over there. Well, there there's a place on Booth and Church Street and I know I talked with Captain Ever something about corners, you know, but there's a place over there kind of the same thing just the corner across from the church the abandoned church there

and church and they've got black town also for parting yeah he we we we see examples like that and it's not to say that that's conforming and so we we whether he's come before us I I don't know of that with the address or anything like that but we we would prefer to deal just with your situation and whether there's alternatives and it looks like you've shown us that you have uh you know limitations in terms of where you could do some bargaining but let me just tell you the you might have heard or overheard one of the other comments we're talking about is avoiding the staff in the vehicles and in you're you're kind of making this parking area uh you're you're you're designing it such that it would have to have that as a situation where I know that's what you do now, but we'd be approving something that then goes against one of our one of our existing codes that's we see it a lot it's whether it comes before this group of people this this fisher we say yes then we then we've kind of said then we've gone another step and saying and We're we're uh really, you know, enforcing our our law, which is which is enforce. Yeah, I understand. So there's no way you could angle them in without blocking the side. You mean like Oh, it doesn't block the sidewalk at all. I know. Now would there's no way to angle those two vehicles in? Stacking them like Yeah. Like this is the end. This is the parking like this. Let me show you. You got Well, you got 13 ft.

So, you can't really do it, but just there's just a question. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's we we see this an awful lot where we see something that sounds feasible, but it's just not a it's something that we try to. So, you you mean like I got 13 ft from the wall to the side. Yeah. And but you'd have you'd have to put another You'd have to take to do that you' have almost tiny car in the house just wasn't built for cars. No. No. It was a beautiful house overhead did a great job. them up. But the the the stacking vehicles is something we I live up by the college so I know all about stack. I've seen four three four of them in the world. This is that crosses the line of of being interfering traffic by me up down. Uh, I called the police and they issued citations for people who are backing out so that the person who's the furthest in can get out to go to the the booth, pick up a cup of coffee. And um, so when when it comes before us, we want to be able to help people achieve what they want to do with their properties. uh to to to uh extend or continue something that is already non-informing is something that we do we can't really do here. That's just our our uh understanding. We we would encourage you to look at other alternatives maybe with the neighbor or with some of the other property you have just just to think about a way different ways of uh achieving your funding. And Eric, I

believe I Eric last week, well departed at city hall county building temporary. Eric M. Yeah. And u he gave he gave me permission chief said, "Yeah, you can park there just so I could tell my guys I tow him out of there." Yeah. I mean, I could do that or maybe I could get I even pay for a permit because they're going to be temporary people. Yes. And the way it was set up before these people shared the driveway, but if you got I mean you got four bedrooms here have two cars. Yeah. Y and that did make a dangerous situation before like you said somebody need a couple things. They had to go next door knock on the door and let me out. But you wouldn't have to in this situation. from here to here. So when they built this, he said they got the easel. Yeah. four cars between two. Well, the max. Well, some people only have one car. Yeah. Now, there's I cannot I can't park that way bumper to bumper here because that porch is right there over here. This tenant here and the people that own this, they can park that. They can park two cars there. I can park one car there.

But I can't park it and get too short. I have to remove the porch to do. Yeah. And then there wouldn't be a back door. Yeah. No, we we can count with a house years old. Wasn't designed for having military people on the automobiles. decided in the home how much of the property do you own there? Um, let's see. This is about This is about the same distance I'm requesting for this about the same length. How much distance? Oh, it it's inches. Maybe six inches to a foot. Okay. It's the neighbor's property. Exactly. get it. Now, I did talk to the neighbor, but then I says, "Would you sell me that?" I said, "No." So, um, right. And then he I offered to buy it and I said, "No, I didn't want to do that." That would have just widened that driveway. So, we would have made room for four cars over there. That would be a real good idea cuz you would have to you have to buy me an apron. Yeah. All that. Okay. So, I know no other solutions. Okay. Um we'll we'll uh we'll discuss it once this year. The one thing that I point out, you know, is that if you and I shouldn't be here saying this, but you're if if you are able to do what you're doing now, even though we'd like you to bring things into compliance, it's going to be it might be difficult

for us to allow you to advance that by by paving more areas. So, continue to do the the stacked park. That's the one thing we're saying. some house stand. The house takes up a big big Yeah. Now, if the house out back, if the guy ever decided to sell it, it's the top's floor is condemned. He should sell it. If he had I buy the place and probably build a big garage or something. Yeah. Um, yeah. Right. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Is there anybody else that has anything to comment upon 2628 L Street? I can. I will entertain a motion to close the vote. Yep. Motion to name. I will second. All in favor signify by state I carried. All right. usually client not trying to speed straight out. Yeah. You

know, initially still on the subject of not wanting to continue static vehicles by allowing It's more than just that too, you know. Yeah, there's that. I think that's what we're struggling with. Trying to come up with maybe something that you could do different um to help maybe just not say like no today, but maybe some considerations. So, it really is a challenging law. there not really many options and certainly not a good option that's been bad as far as Yeah. There's a list of considerations that does not make an appealing. Yeah. Yeah. So if I may Yes. Um something to consider it is temporary. So you might have one, you might have two. It's that but it's unlike the four It's like on four day intervals or three months inter. So who who knows what you're going to have. According to Mr. Stewart, it's not going to be consistently or should not be consistent. Yeah. Vehicles. And I understand that. Um so my one of my concerns is I I think that fence needs to get put back up again. Yep. To prevent people from driving on the sidewalk. Yes. And to prevent people from using it as a drive-thru on the Elm Street. Yes. Exactly. part of my if you were to wait a safety concerns against this whole thing driveway with a sidewall and that's why I have questions about the you know pedestrians next door that doesn't that the current thing he has up there now looks really that that rot iron fence looks really good yeah that's supposed to be beautiful That's true. I

could understand if we were in a business district if we were downtown. Okay. But this is not unfortunately I do believe that you know Mr. Stewart is strapped and I also believe if you look at if you look at the current conditions of that neighborhood and the and the pride in Yeah. I also think I mean look at where Mr. I mean Mr. to it has brought that property to 1%. So if you look at the other buildings on the end or street look at the the church um it shows that that corner lot used to do the same kind of opposed and then they actually fixed it when they did um they added it back in to give that you know that characteristic look of the neighborhood. So it's something they're definitely not trying to do in the neighborhood. If if we uh by having fence added and requiring that as part of the variance I can see there's a benefit to it. I don't have questions. He's also going to have to do something with that neighboring property to prevent the neighbors from encroaching back on to his parking. Would that be I don't know how he can do that. How can he do that current condition? I I don't know if he can do it. I mean, he can give enough room to that big park, but he doesn't give the whole area. Yeah. Then he has to come up with a line, you know. I just don't see how he's going to be able to do that. Yeah. And like your cars and get trapped

in that the inner cars. Yeah. Could I make a suggestion? Yes. Yeah. I've got raw iron fence. I've got I could put a if code allows it. I could put a division between the rightway iron. I can put part of my fence there and I can also run the fence all the way back the way I had it before. Yeah. I just thought it might be easier. The only reason why I took it down, I thought it might be easier for people just get out and just walk. But there's a point there somebody might pull out onto green. there's an alternative maybe pulling the next space. Do you plan on entering from Elm Street or from Greenwood? But what I'm saying is that one gentleman mentioned that uh somebody could, you know, I don't know, they might want to jump the curb or something. Get on the street. I'll put the fence back all the way back to the to the end tracks, but I've got it open now just so guys can get in there and dig it out. But yeah, that's an option. I could put the fence back in. But you're also talking about all that green space all gone, right? That would be that would be it would be it would match the other side. The other side is 40 ft or 42 ft from the end to the this side of Elm Street. This is 36. So you're going to give about about four more feet of green space. 36 ft.

I think maybe a thought too would be I would hate to like you know prove something like this that kind of ruins aesthetics for something in the future is always a issue and you know city's constantly working on ways to help improve it. So I don't know I think yeah making yeah you're defining an area by using that advanced term and defining an area future whether it's as ownership versus somebody else I can see that any questions yes my questions since being closed. Thanks and yes. Yes. Okay. J uh proceed with the uh secret questions. The following test will be considered by the zoning board of appeals to determine the variance in weighing the granting or denial of the area variance request. whether an undesirable change will be produced in the character of the neighborhood or a detriment to nearby properties will be created by the branding of the area. I think the I think the aesthetics again. Yeah. And I think it it's been more of a challenge for the other, you know, and and it's it has a complication of the neighboring properties and it's a it's an area that gets a fair amount of traffic at least for where it starts recording and afterwards from the office.

I want to say that um I actually think yes to that one. Yes, he did. Del whether the benefits of the athlete can be achieved by some method feasible for the applicant to pursue other than an area variance. I don't think there is not with this property. No, it's too strained. um whether the requested area variance is substantial to between that make it allow for the improvement of something that continue and um I do write the idea that's good I smell with that one. I think considering some of that I think a lot of these answer are not substantial necessarily but they do have they do factor into traffic when they extend beyond just zoning. So interest substantial asking a lot of area varianes that are preexisting follow whether the proposed variance will have an adverse effect or impact on the physical environmental conditions in the neighborhood or district. I'd say most impact so to speak. The only alleged

difficulty was self created which con consideration surely relevant the decision of the board but shall not necessarily include the granting of the area. Yes. So we have yes no yes no yes or no okay substantial we yes yes it's first one's yes last one's yes and three is number three and three is yes that's children. Well, very steady. But still it'll be the concrete or asphalt. Um, yeah, I think I'm okay. Yeah, I'll get the moment to deny the application and with some maybe other suggestions of some maybe looking at some parking in the the bigger where your existing uh porches are with the idea of maybe

adding those exterior addresses somewhere else. You know, I'm not not familiar with the layout, but you know, that's a requirement to have those exits. uh looking at some architectural features to allow maybe a standard back there. I think that would be like my only suggestion at this time. Yeah, I think that's a good we just it's just a wild application and I think we've got to got to take that into consideration and I when we go through these questions uh they're they're done by the state and uh we often time we have to answer them in in you know discussions. motion. Motion's been made to deny the request and I'll wait for a second. Second has been made. Makes sense. But what if offered a different solution? Uh we could table it for you because we would we would be table it for another previous another date if you offered some other plans. What I want to do the same. How about instead of two cars, one car, you approve it for one car. The place I showed you right in front of the porch is I do have a right away for one parking there. I could separate. They got two cars. I could park one. I need some of that grass space. Let's say 20 ft instead of 36. I tell you what, we we will uh we can entertain that. And I think one knocking it down on one car and not stacking is will will uh uh alleviate the problem that I have that we have about moving something and then letting you continue to do. Well, I can do like make it 20 ft instead of 36 feet or 18 feet or whatever you guys decide and then I can. Yeah, I want to see it

coming. Yeah, we could you if you can if we can table this then uh sketch it for us and then we'll have something then we'll have something that we can actually say yes this is the what we do like to do anyways is we say move to approve as presented that would be as you presented so it's I know it's a little burdensome but it helps us I think it helps us all to uh come on on all the same circumstances or not it being on that side there. So I'm more like to the back just because of all the concerns. Yeah. And I work for areas elsewhere on the lot too would be about um Yeah, I can right about there. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, I can understand. Then you would go right because that would take care of my worries. So I'm going to I'm going to withdraw my second tables and I would table it for next month until you have a plan this for two two months and then uh if you want to just bring in a sketch kind of give an idea what we want what we're looking for. So, uh, thinking because we tabled it last time for technically this last time we may have been confused with plan. I didn't know I read the thing wrong. I I thought Yeah, I didn't realize I should always leave this. Yeah, there it there was table that plan. just Yes. So, uh, yeah, you can table it

to the next meeting. Otherwise, Yeah. Yeah. do 30 days, July. You can't. So, I think what we're suggesting, Bill, just so you can maybe get time to get a plan together, is doing a curb cut and then just allowing for one car to either pull um your thoughts on this stuff straight in from from Green Bush. And the the other thing too is it's about I haven't measured it, but there's plenty of room for a car to park in the rightway driveway where Right. That's kind of what we're saying here. It wouldn't it wouldn't be in the way of the other people coming in and out of whatever you got one car. That's where we're thinking with the maybe about right here for the length that that is going to go over just one that curb cut there. That way there's none of that craziness and Right. Well, it would be for one car to start make the left turn. One car only and then the other car could go straight in. Yeah. Exactly. And they'd stay out of each other's way because Plenty of room on the other the right away. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. And I can put the fence back up, too. Yeah. It's a nice fence. Yeah. Plus, I can save some money in the period there. Well, we um we have motion and then if you if you do submit like another thing, just get like a a site plan with the dimensions and everything so we can see exactly not take us, you know, 20 minutes to figure out. one just added which was added to your existing uh submission bas on on what you submitted. What timeline are we talking about? Well, we we want to see you before the July meeting. Oh, I get it done tomorrow. I'll make a motion to table listening for the next meeting. We're going to I'm

going to withdraw Andy the uh Kyle. So motion to deny and a second and u entertain a second for table cabling made by Roy. I will I will she has made by Ray. Uh I will make that second and motions on the table to seconded to table 2628 Helen Street July meeting and I look for approvals. All in favor signify by saying I I motion's table. So we'll be looking to see this on the agenda next the 23rd of next month 25th 25th 4th. There's one real quick question. What if I took the pay and pave the area that we just talked about the going on the rightway side if I just pave one part I think we're what we were looking at is conceptually anyways is is including with a curb cut. So if it was all, you know, so it's a little more involved than that. Uh because you want to be able to pull in the idea that we're getting at is you're avoiding having that stacking. So having the cone cut probably just pulled right in the street versus so if that I don't know what the process for that for getting that or giving that well right now it's it's it's old old crust and Yeah. So it's not that too. Yeah, it's the same. That's right. Right up to it. Yeah. So, everybody would have a paid part. We're gonna we're going to stick with the July meeting if you if you want to work out with something with the codes department as far as because I know you want to get the contractors in place and stuff like that at that. Uh I think you know we'll we'll certainly look to making compromise with you on that. Okay. Very good. Thanks for your time. All right. Next.

Okay. Uh next agenda item, I'm sorry for the uh time there. Uh the agenda item number seven is now number six and that will be 152 Clemson. That's the owner Dunkin Donuts CMY food services. The purpose of replacing pyl24. You have you're here to present for this uh application. Yes. Good. Go ahead. Tell us what who you are and uh uh Tom Sanur with CNY Food Service Group was a Duncan franchisee. Go ahead and tell us kind of what you're asking for. just so the uh main entrance of the convenience store and the Duncan to the left of that there's currently two there's a Duncan donut sign and a

manual reader board illuminated intern both internally illuminated um but we like because it's rebranded it's just called Duncan now it's not Dunkin Donuts so whenever we we have to upgrade them to that yes per so we uh remove those two signs on the front and just put dump code. Okay. And then the Clinton Well, I guess it's still Clinton across Yeah. Across from Starbucks. Yep. There's currently a Dunkin Donut sign. Same thing. Arrows in some that it's still on the building. There's three building signs. Yeah. So that remove that one and just put Duncan. Okay. Um it's actually about five square feet less the two signs compared to three signs down. Okay. So also added a canopy to the rear of the building. Also added enlarged dirt remaining. Okay. The the track is still the same. Cars come in and all the same. Yeah. I could hit each component to your right since they enlarge that existing non-conforming property they need area two area just that's that's sign just for the drive-thru right so what I just was explaining with the two building there's three building signs two say Dunkin Donuts and then there's a reader board underneath one of them okay they pull three signs off replace it with two signs one in the main entrance and one on the side and it just says downtown. Yeah. So that would be the building margin. Y and then so so unrelated to Mr. S for

his work the the building the the the the property question has uh existing nonformity of maximum front yard. Yeah. And two pole signs that are within 172 feet of each other. The and the the maximum is 300 ft. Okay. Um so if you were to create a variance for that, however, if you guys remember when we met with MRB. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. What MRB said about Pex? Yeah. We also just kind of did something similar to the gas station. So really yeah we I think we've used that before where we said to the name of government or was we used to we also used to run next door got that nice monument there even know our our comprehensive plan is not approved but we're moving towards those kind of things. I think that's how my recommendation is as a zoning officer would be to do what we've done similar to other places and give them a certain amount of time to remove those pole signs and replace them with the monument sign. Yeah, monument sign. That's the other. So, is that the multi? It has multiple signs on it. I think that's referring to. Yeah, it's the same next door. Your next door neighbor mobile gas station the oil change. Yeah. So, the stop

across the street has a pylon sign. Yeah. And I touch on it properly. When I do this, we'll change it. Yeah. So, pylons are no longer allowed as of right now. It it's what we uh what we were alluding to. We've hired a consultant to develop a comprehensive plan for it's been 40 plus years I want to say and we're getting concepts from them about trending away from poll signs trending away from some of the traditional signs that and makes make and and in their you know we have to credit them with the the clients that they've had before trying to improve that entrance court by by uh lessening the impact of the signage. Doesn't mean the signage doesn't have to get people to where they need to go, but it we want to get away from those kinds of of types of uh advertisements. So even though it's existing, it's not grandpa. It's not. No, it's a it's a So they can have one. They can have one. And that's the that's the uh but having the two there, you know, the distance between them is is what we're what we're looking at. So the other one's that high that highway sign. That's the sign. Yeah. Um we're we did this with another corporation as well that uh that was a we were able to work with them about making and having having the science fit more in what we think is going to be and we feel pretty confident we'll be ultimately the law of our of our comprehensive plan and then our ordinances and zoning and and uh and other city laws have will will adapt to that conflict

in future. So that's the convenience are actually best at sign. Yeah. So I just have a section of it. Yeah. You is that am I saying that right? Is that a big sign that says mobile that you can see the folk has Dunkin Donuts on it? Yes. Yeah. Um the way it would the way it would read right now is one of you you either grant the area bearings to have two within 175 foot or you don't one has to come down and and one can stay because pole signs are allowed in in a general business district currently one excuse me one GB1 What's good? Um, I think we can kind of stay in line with all the other businesses that we've done with our, you know,

So it's interesting because everything that's supplying for is is preexistent which change the name, you know, the text. Yeah. No, I think there's a maybe some type of Yeah. Like, all right. And can I Yeah. Yes. Go ahead. Um these two signs are shared. Both poll signs are shared. Yes. Yes. So, even if you tell Duncan they can't put their sign on the pole, the mobile sign is still going to exist. So, to me, you really don't want to create a third monument sign. Yeah. That says Duncan and then still have two pole signs that say mobile. I I Yeah, I was I was trying to remember why why that they're saying. I thought they were combined at one time maybe and and and now seems like several. So, um, we we should, uh, and and you're really only looking to change the Dunkin Donuts to Duncan to the new That's it. That's it. And actually go from three signs on the building to

Was there a time frame you wanted to see happen, Roy, or think it's whatever time frame you give needs to be consistent with the time frame? We've been given 18 months I want to say I believe so I think you I think the last I think the last one you did was two years two years I mean for also just give them to guidance I also understand it's not Mr. % terrorist business that's created the non-conformities pre-existing with with uh uh Mark what's that company called? Oh Joe's quick. Yeah. Thank you. I'm not sure if Rich Bman put those signs up originally or not. Yes. Well, I mean those been there right since we've been there. I'm think my suggestion would be um that at such time that Joe's makes a change that would make them come in front of us that at that point they would have to switch to a monument style sign as well. So both of them become a monument style sign. But you all okay with doing that? You had to change the sign. What we're saying is that if the convenience store, mobile or whatever, if that changes, if if our if our comprehensive plan requires a change in in in signage, it may be that you have to conform to that. I would so the pylon sign. Yeah. And put two monuments or double double double like within a certain height. Yeah. that

makes the boy want to have their pricing and stuff on there. So So in in in signing the motion, I would then write it up as as uh that you can prove it prove your your change of your signage, but condition on the uh this everybody knows that they sell it and they rebrand it. Yeah, it would be and and the city of Portland as well whether we change our our our signage. Yeah. Applies to what they apply for. Jones doesn't say in the near future they don't have plans to change it until they decide to change it. Yeah. Or a new they sell it or change or a new owner of a new business is entirely theirs. That would be how we instruct if that's uh go ahead and entertain a motion to close the public hearing. Motion motion's been made. I second. All in favor signify by saying I. I. All righty. We'll through our questions. following tests will be considered by the zoning board of appeals to determine the variance in weighing the granting or denial of the area variance request. Number one, whether an undesirable change will be produced in the character of the neighborhood or a detriment to nearby properties be created by the granting of the area. No, it's the updating the name whether the benefits sought by the applicant can be achieved by some method feasible for the applicant to presume other than an area variance. No. Whether requested area variance is substantial. I think it is whether the proposed variance will have an adverse effect or impact on the

physical environmental conditions in the neighborhood district. I believe no on that one as well. Whether the alleged difficulty was so created which consideration shall develop the decision of a board but shall not necessarily preclude the granting of the area impairments. I think they changed to Duncan. So yes, I'm go for that. I um try to motion to approve the application with the condition that the existing caller full sign be brought into compliance with sign laws when or if um the Other business um changes shares business uh changes hands or changes submits for variations or and an area variance will have to be forecast. That's what we're combining the two of you. Certainly you can do your work and then but the change is then uh been more bringing both back in and have it change. It's kind of gring a variance but somewhat temporary as long as it long as it's needed but but certainly um I will second that Andy need to edit. Yeah. So not quite clear on the uh motion motion with the condition that the bull sign be brought into compliance

with applicable code at such time as at some future some sometime it could it could have whatever the property own does any exterior work then the sign's got to be brought any any action by Joe's quick mark that triggers the request requirements for piece with the signage should be such time as any other properties other signage on the property action that requires If a joining property owner takes action that requires a permanent so adopted to approve the area of variance with the condition that the bull sign be brought into compliance with applicable code at such time as other signs. signage on the property takes seeks action that requires a permit. Nothing about signage. Just take a word signage just as work or any action other activity that they try. Any other bad action action

say? Okay. Y second. I second. All in favor? Anybody saying I motion carries? I'm sorry. So Kyle, you made the motion and Tom, you second. Second. Right. We're going to go back to our agenda item number one. Um number one and three one through three, five and eight Commando Avenue area variance. expenses to build three single family homes approximately 900 ft each on three partials located right somebody took the panic there's some below you there's yeah there Oh, sorry. Congratul

Okay. Good evening again, gentlemen. We've seen each other before. Um, glad to come back here and I guess continue on. Um, I ask you, is it necessary that I review the project as a whole once again? It may be for the benefit of people that weren't there the last time. I I was there last night. I I know there were some people that may be in the audience to get the Okay. Yeah. I think that would be beneficial. going to be intended as well. These three submissions. So, we'll start with the board. I'll hold that one around. Mr. Craig Noli has hired my partner hired me Brian Butner to develop several parcels at the end of Bartlett and on Commando A. And uh after several plans and iterations of that, including a couple of corrections to the existing properties, we came up with this uh plan for three individual single family homes. Um each of them being approximately a footprint of 900 square ft. Some of them may actually have a second story but uh the footprint is really important they would come to uh we've also given uh during development given Mr. Freya the option

to start from seeking potential owners and also given them options of an additional greaseway andor one and one half car garage uh for each of those parcels. The only one that was a little bit shy for the Greezeway was the parcel on I think 95 upside down 95 Bartlett which basically has the option of just a garage. I'm not sure whether you saw copies of it. I I handed them around last time. I also have sort of a pictorial of what one of these concept houses would look like. Um I can show you that again unless you all have that package. Okay. Um Blues Commando, one of the considerations that was brought up at the last meeting and series of the other planning meetings that we've already passed through is at some point possibly since Commando restaurant no longer exists, we take the front off and return basically to a residential structure that's behind it. and he would like to continue to collaborate that as a residential apartment structure. That's why in anticipation of that we put three parking spaces that's available residents. Each of the other places has a full driveway behind the sidewalk as you can see in both cases. What we're asking of the uh BZA board is that you recognize the old character of this u neighborhood such that uh none of them conform to the current requirements for setbacks. Therefore, we felt it was reasonable and appropriate to look at what the setbacks are and limit those so

that there is distant buying of houses. Now in the case of uh Parkland Avenue many of the other houses that had porches almost to the side she's nowhere I don't think you did see before of the night. Um, these are the homes just next to Commando and Mando. You see how close they are in the sidewalk. There's two photographs that I want to show you. That's the other side. You can see how close the the old houses are. and 194 and uh so none of them had a setback that's consistent with other lawyer flare to it. see what people want to know. And the intention of Mr. Fred not only is not to have these as house but actually to have them uh sold once he develops.

So with that I would like to entertain any questions you have. If not I turn around and the introduction get so threeand restaurants this property there blue. Oh, that is commitment. Yes, that is what are you seeking variances for? This is a area variance for the to put a official buffer in consistent with code. Mr. Fred know also owns that building next door. So basically we're trying to bring this part even though it is a building. That's why we had the buffer on this side and I when those two rocks are getting separated I included a buff here as well that buffer will likely be uh forested with special plant so that basically so this is a restaurant just landing on any He has determined housing. Well, there's housing back here. Well, that was said to mention that nothing enforced, but they mentioned it maybe at one time down the line take the final bottle. phase of this exact phase one of this is the body as a whole since it is commercially assuming as a whole what's the property that whole thing right now the properties that lot and so the area is two different properties right so

just the correct operator because it's still listed as a commercial facility. And even if the commercial facility was taken away, it would most likely be probably a three or four apartment, you know, well, this going to be a single family house gets cut off right here and that lot, but it leaves under the conformity of the Yeah. So my question then with this law there is like the only variance you're saying with that one is that we have listed right here but correct side just there is also there's a spot right here would be a really hard behind it. One of the things that was discussed is that for which meeting we were at whether it was the planning meeting your BCA meeting before is making sure that there's a fence or vegetative buffer between that and the house there is now but it's very see mature growth but it's not really either trying one thing that I desire to do is that because the corner is a little little wonky there. You might see the where the driveway of the parking lot for this is. I am planning to realign the sidewalk pretty much as it was and take out this little skew here uh so that basically we have a space so there are people coming and going can see the um unc Right.

Not enough space, but it was my project. as all of us know is common place. But basically what we call sawtooth parking which show that takes about uh 38 ft and you still got a saw to you still got to go forward into the which really long tape to come on back and it doesn't sound like but anyway so here's the driveways here. They're all long driveways. So you can park the fire and our ideas to single family homes and possibly the second vehicle in the garage. Now Mr. Greg is not anticipating that he's just going to build these garage phase one. He's going to try and structure us so people and they they say yeah phase one then go ahead and do this in the works now and we are anxious at least at the green to find out we need to go forward so that I can start actually post I like this I really I mean it's pretty question that we have to grant for the restaurant rather than just step back. I want to make sure we understand what they do. So seems there's several alone that we don't kind of have listed of what you're asking for and I would like a better list just that I'll be able what you're asking for because I see sideyard I see rear I see front then coverage. Um so I just have a good

understanding of well there's nothing that's going on with this unless we Well I mean you're making the smaller right? So this Yeah. Well, so here this is actually being added to how much the property's being added to 10t recycling. Yeah. So that whole thing needs to be making the project small. It's that your lock coverage. Hey, is your lock coverage in the quiet cell percentage percentage lock basically? Well, this that would be another element for that barrier. So, right. So, that's that's what I'm saying. It's like hey your poppies now get smaller in your your cover and then so these other variants I don't know maybe they're already but um they're not listed what would improve but the other three I don't really have I think our application did call for these uh these areas to be included you about about green space you're talking about park it's still talking about is very prepared that you're seeking for just that one and just all I see here is this front yard sub is this it's because if you look at a multiple residence I mean so multiple res isn't allowed it's not property any but in most jurisdictions multiple residents what is not 60% it's 75% so that's what I want us and It's pushing 75%. Yeah, that's that's it. That's something goes beyond just our our zone.

You're you're actually talking about something a little more stretches into something. It's different than just just something that we would have perview. The frontier setbacks is something that certainly we look at all the time. We see that what you pointed out in red is how is this throughout the city that it's it's the other other issues that combine with it and that's if we were to just pick and choose maybe back I don't know how that's going to help you design something that is going to then conform to the solving as I said multif family, all these different things that you're going to have to add into what's existing for the zoning that's there. I don't uh I certainly Yeah. I don't think there's if you're concerned you're talking about the the Well, yeah. It's the um reuse for for what you're proposing. It's nothing's on the table for that. Okay. Commander building that was for I'll come back to that. The other thing was the bunker which the only issue I see with that I mean it's pre-existing nonform so the only the only issue I see with that parcel is the is it's right on the sidewalk it's always been on the sidewalk so it's pre-existing for that's it so really I have no plan to do anything to my building at this time you don't mean you're seeking you have the house has making sure that I thought it so I thought the lot coverage on that given so it's not listed because it's

nonconformable if you look at any any other lot any other lot where you have a mult residence or business the the square foot is either it's between 75 and 80% lot coverage and I think that's pretty darn close to 75 or 80%. But really the only thing we did do during this development was to improve upon that by getting the buffers hang right now there's nothing there for another day. Well, I'm kind of that's why I think we're here. I don't think I don't have those covers. Uh yeah, we construction of houses seems to be something that's straight up our our here, but I'm not want to want to learn a little more about converting commercial operation business. It's too simple. Well, that's done here. That's not they're not doing that. on the table that it's just the two buffer zones in the three houses. If I decide to do something with that, I'll come back right now that just the way it is. Are we are you considering this right now? Is this is this considered a residential? Existing commercial and the second floor is existing residential. So, as far as an area variance goes, we approve this and they change this to residential. come back for a service. Well, unless they made it more perform, you know, I think I'd like to see us deal with minimal 95 and 98 and then the buffers and that's it.

That's the only thing on the table right now. Yeah. Okay. That's it. Yeah. I I don't Yeah, you can do this, but there will be I don't know how I never had a lot of people might better off tear the thing down. So many ways when I developed these these are lots as you can see. So basically this house conforms to the setback I think 25 ft. This one was in Sus 25 feet. The only thing that we're shy of again and that's consistent with this house over here. Got a bit of a shallow thing. But the other thing that I thought very carefully about when I heard the zoning is this is the clear view uh space landscaped in the driveway down this side. So many we'll be talking to our council on this for and then others who want to speak and others here to speak. So you obviously don't have to vote on that if you don't want to, but that's part of the sub. I mean, you're maybe I'm more leaning towards approving your subdivision. Not that's not ours, but you know, maybe leaving the variances required for another day. But finally come back and tell us what they want to do with that. you don't know. He says that but that's not even the agenda to accept. So, I have no problem leaving the advances out because we don't know what you're gonna we don't know what we're approving.

Okay. Did you tell me this show to the public since they may not have all heard? Who's here? Who hasn't heard the introduction before? Who was going on? Well, come on up. They were all around. They were here last time. Okay. You evolved. So anyways, this is the uh site plan. You've probably seen that if you desiring to develop the end of Bartlett Park. This this is Commando right now. Bartlet comes down here, turns on the Commando, and then goes back. Two houses on Commando. And this is the railroad track. This well that's a good this is the railroad track out at the end of Bartlett and this this is actually technically also on Bartlett because they've opened but this one is you need to command them there's enough room for the whole Right. If he does end up Correct. What does that mean? I think it was before even the one by the rail. No, you won't buy. Yes, I will got a couple double that. Yes. So, if we

approve Well, as you heard me mention to the board that it's our idea to sell the basic house, but also give an owner the opportunity to add a breezeway and a half with it. They would have to do that. If they have the funds to do it right off, then he's going to build the whole thing. FY before you built them and they were going to be so they're probably going to build them one at a time and then the builder whoever he selects is going to come right down the street and build them. Well, we don't know that. And you're removing all those trees. I don't know. I have I wasn't what I would do. As an architect, I only like to remove as many trees as necessary to make the house work. But if if the tree is old or it's sick, then basic, you know, if if we can tell, we can even bring an arborist down and he'll tell us whether that tree has much life left. Yeah. I can the trees down because they're right behind my I sort of like the tree that's right here. So, no, I'm talking about ones that I command behind the two houses. Yeah, we have no plan at this point in time to take those down. We're mainly focused on what is currently parking lot there. Oh, I thought the trees coming down. Well, I don't think we need to. I mean, I don't think so at this time unless there, you know. So then we should well when we get closer to building and that we'll actually tag each to find out what is needed to be taken down or what's

okay. So Vince also has my telephone number. If you have any questions that come up after this meeting him and I'll get back to you. I mean he can give you give him your email. Do I want they they keep losing parts and pieces. Um and even my tree that my big my big white pine is is coming down. I removed all the trees that were on my sides in the fence because they kept losing pieces and that big pine tree has got to come down because now it has no protection when she took her tree down. But those trees that are on the back side of my fence are limbs really bad. That's good to know. So if if they're not stable any longer, then there's there's a very good reason to take them down. We'll have a profession to basically diagnose what those trees are. Have you all had a chance to ask him some questions because we're we're we're concerned about the zoning. Yes. and neighboring, you know, issues and things like that are something certainly important, but we we do want to stick to our issues on zoning. If almost okay, we're good to go. Okay. Just quickly on behalf of the city on behalf of the city first, I want to um thank Mr. Fragnoli for getting all of his properties up to date as far as the rental permits go and things like that. Um he's completely up to date like that. The other open issue that he's working on is 61 East Avenue and he's been doing everything in his power to move forward on that. So I at this point the city would be in favor of granting the variances. um conditioned on completing that demolition over at

61E East Stab. Um and again, I want to thank Mr. Fragment because as you guys know, we are a pro housing community and this project here is helping us stay compliant with our certification for pro housing. So, um thank you again. We appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. I think we see what we need to do. Just just so we know that that's one of the we we found structure of the the approval this the motion it's going to mention we want to put that in in the record almost like how 61 East I would just say just say that city the city codes department u has to be uh satisfied by that 61 that's in schedule. We're not we're not going to mention it. We're not even going to mention the name of it, but we are going to say that the post department and and the legal department need to be assured that that all other other outstanding issues that you had are correct. So that one of those things that we just said we're we're all in favor of seeing this kind of itself. We and we like what you've done to this point. It's it's a matter of owner standing things in and that's just working to Yeah. That's that's progress very much. So doesn't sound like much but it is progress. So good mention and signify by saying I approve. I

That's all for you. It gave anybody chance. I just thought of it. Yeah, we should. That was our mistake to close the public hearing. Uh, does anybody else need to speak for us uh at the zoning board here because uh we have zoning issues? We'd love to hear uh any comments very to that effect. No one no one hearing nothing. All those in favor of closing public hearings by the same questions before I go through the seekers. Following test will be considered by the zoning boards to determine whether the variance made to granting or to develop the area variance request. whether an undesirable change will be produced in the character of the neighborhood for attaching to nearby properties will be created by the granting the area I think no value I think that's area that we just talked about how to report achieving housing for more whether next question whether the benefit sought by the can be achieved by some feasible for the applicant to pursue other than varancements Again, I think now he's doing the right thing. Whether the requested area variance is substantial. Yes. Yes. His three houses is a is a change and things

with the US on that one. Uh whether the proposed variance will have an adverse effect or impact on the physical environmental conditions in the neighborhood for district. again adverse effect it's you know opposite of that so I'm gonna whether the alleged difficulty was self created this consideration shall relevant to the decision of the board but shall not necessarily include the granting of the area variance I think uh it's we we always answer that yes it's what you get when you're trying to do things with houses that were built sometimes question. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, I had one comment and this maybe be helpful, but one of the things that I would like to see actually in the approval is that Mr. I know we'll be able to coordinate with the city because the sidewalks that we want to see changed are actually within the city right away and that would department I think we we can't do anything with zoning in that regard but I know well you're putting the thing in about is it compliance with other documents. Oh no that's that's actually that's something that has been passed on to us. we don't really have a choice in that matter. So, uh I think that in the what we're what we're yeah just goes to the fact of you know it's work with the city the post department and and the public works department work very close together. They have to because the mayor will make them together and and Mr. Lewis and and all will make sure that happens as well. U it it's a is a matter of they're they're not speaking for them specifically but

the uh public works department is going to do things when they know that they're valid and viable that comes after us comes after several things that is you're right you said you planned on this already aware yeah but I think uh I think that's a good question good point to But we're going to stick with making the requirement as as we as we talk. Okay. So, u um I think I'm going through the questions and the no yes no yes Andy for those five. I'm sorry. Yes to number three. Yes to number five. That's it. I will make a motion thinking different ways. Uh I'm going to move to approve the application and the variances therein um contingent on on approval of pass the applicants for the applicant that has been made by the codes and the law department. Uh, so I think other I don't I I wouldn't say the other property, but I just would say them and they they would then the details like 61, you know, I I wouldn't want to put identify 61 PA as something, but I would just generic pending satisfaction. Yeah. pending

because the applicant is satisfied or has complied with all permits resolved any outstanding violations and paid on any outstanding city charges. I think that's as council. Is that something you did? We weren't requiring the payment of all city charges. We were. Okay. So uh for the approval this approve the area variance you have I'm comfortable with comfortable is yeah we're only dealing with with zoning issues not if there's any other outstanding debts at the city beyond the clergy of the EDA. Yes that's what we do. So, so tear down structure. I don't see why we give you the address, but there's no reason we can't. Yeah, there's no reason why we can't. So, let's just add the address in there. Get to the zoning part because he's doing anyways. any area goes beyond it and goes beyond building how it works and and things and has to involve the state. How about if we just say completes his demolition permit? Completes his demolition. And he has a permit on file. He does have a permit on five. I Roy. No. Why for the Okay. All right. Uh I'm kind of going on Kyle's side here. I I uh

so we approve it um or with the condition that the post department is kept breast of all progress on properties is that yeah I think that you're we have no say but I think as working with the city certainly as you're right to say no as of anywhere you apply for a permit based on your past or dangerous other conditions that it may need to be trusted first. So I I agree. All right. He's kind of following up a gloss. Okay. Yeah, we have we have an intel to go ahead entertain to prove variances requested commando Avenue and Bar Street with the condition that the applicants continue to work closely with codes department not only these properties but any others under the oversight of the of the city coast club that should be applied to everybody but continue to work with the code enforcement officer coast for a coast to coast officer and always properties that

department. All settled. Second's been made. All in favor? I not the way I wanted. We'll have something for you here momentarily and we'll type it up. He'll he'll set it off. Thank you, gentlemen. Yes, very good. We have Vince from one more. Yeah, we have the the one that was added in. Okay, here we go. It's the 40 Pearl Street. No, 79 Main Street. 79 Main Street. 79. Excuse. All right. I'm sorry about that. I wrote it down the wrong page. So, yes. Go ahead. You're not on the agenda item, so tell us. Yeah. So, my wife and I own a business at 79 Main Street. Yep. Um, we opened in 2021 and put up a sign, went through the sign permit process that has me that. Yep. I think there's 23 or 24. Our landlord got a grant to take down the whole facade, redo the facade. Um, so now we need to do signs of it. I went through the sign permit process, historical committee, and then this time I was told I also the minor site group. Um, that was different from the last time we went through. And then I was reading the city charter a little bit. And I guess the reason for me being here is to um appeal the interpretation for the minor site plan for the sign

that we're putting up. The sign that's going up is free floating plastic letters. We're not doing any lighting. Um it's just lettering that's going up onto the the um I'm not the best at speaking in front of people, so I put my So it's not free floating. It's going to be attached to I'm sorry. It's attached to the wall. Yes. All right. Good. Yes. had be worried. Yeah. No. Um I put my thoughts into We have a copy of this. Oh, you have a copy of that. Okay. The only thing involving minor improvement plan review is the signage. Is that all? Yes. All we're doing is the signage. So we'll mount the signage. And it was just my interpretation that a minor plan of view was not needed that it didn't fit any I completely sympathize with Mr. Troyer and um told him before the meeting that unfortunately I didn't write this statute. Um my goal is with any statute is you should be able to read it and you shouldn't need to be a lawyer to read it. Um, unfortunately this statute is poorly written at best. Um, but it does specifically say in 300132B

that um, alterations alterations or changes to a facade don't require a site plan review unless they're in a historic district or flood district. I totally agree. The law should say if you're in a historic district or flood district, you do require it. It shouldn't imply that you require it by a negative, but it does. And that's what we're stuck with. Um, you know, so that being said, if it requires a site plan review, what site plan review does it require? Um 3173i says that allows minor improvements or changes to a wall or other things to be approved by the zoning officer and the planning commission chair. Um I I've read Captain Everett's interpretation. I don't like how we have to get there because it should be simpler. I also don't think it's necessarily the most effective way for a business owner to have to get his sign approved. It's kind of a ciruitous route, go to point A, then go to point B. Um, we know that we're going through a process of updating our zoning code. Um, all of these things should be streamlined through that. Should be streamlined through that. I won't guarantee they will be. um you know adding an art commission could add a go to step A then step B then step C for something um but that's the nature of the beast to some extent um like I said it's not well written but my recommendation as a council for the city is that it does Captain Ever's interpretation should be upheld. Um like I said it's it's not pretty statute but I think it does get to where it needs to get. I'd just like to ask could um in reference to that for um subsection B there site plan reviewer shall not be

required for alterations and facade changes that we discussed this um earlier that the alterations that we're doing the addition of the sign does not meet the city's definition of alteration. If you look earlier in the charter, it say change or rearrangement of the structural parts and enlargement whether by extending or on a side or by increasing height or move from one location position to another but not including normal maintenance minor repairs for improve or minor repairs or improvements and that's how the city defines operations within the start. Are you saying that you're you're saying that your work is a minor repair? We're adding the sign. I guess a addition of a sign for no sign would be a minor improvement. Um, but it it doesn't fall under any of the under how the city defines a um an alteration. But we just in fact tonight we just had a an issue with a sign with a corporation. Yeah. National international corporation. of and but it was about a sign and so it was it's important enough for them to come in because we've tried to allude to it and you know it's hard to say is you know we have we have we're confident that by doing our comprehensive plan we're going to improve these kind of anomalies that exist in a lot of our in our zoning or has exist in the past and so what we've what we proposed in that case earlier that today or that that agenda I had earlier was just that that they would be able to some kind of a change down the line. Now, so signage is certainly one of one of the major things in in a in a designated historic area. It's not minor. It's not a minor thing at all. Yeah. Even painting which sounds like maintenance things. Yeah, we went through that. So my issue I I would get

I would put it black and white as should you meet a site plan for a sign in a store district. Simple as that. But you know is it worded that way? Yes. Um no this obviously that's what the historic board is for is to go through all those approvals and making sure something works right. Does would it need to go in front of the site? No. That doesn't make any sense at all. So yes, our code is worded that you need to go. Does it make sense? No. That's kind of where I was getting as well because it's I feel like it's regulated the the small work that we're doing is regulated through the historical committee and then also the sign permit. All the dimensions, the location is everything is in the sign permit and then it gets I understand we talked I guess the historical committee doesn't have approval process which was a little confusing but very confusing their advisory right. Yeah. Yeah. So it was my understanding too going through that process is we're meeting the requirements for the historical committee and everything is in the sign permit. It makes no sense to have to have a site plan or open a site plan New York State for they've got you know New York State has got that and and believe you we have we we encounter this with planning counties our county's planning department too and things like that. So we've we've got requirements that we just can't get around. And one of the law one of the things that that that they incorporate the city that's incorporated has to do is is draft codes and draft laws. Yes. And they have to be certain uh there's certain elements to it. I'm speaking like what I'm talking about. You're doing good. But but so what Mr. Lewis has talked about is something that is something that the people who sit here, you know, monthly, the council people should be the ones thinking that. Yeah. And that's a that's that's not that's something I tell a lot of people they don't believe. No, it's actually something that they want to hear from

their constituents in terms of change that can happen and make make a real difference. And which is which is part of my goal too because I feel like this is a common occurrence especially on Main Street obviously is a historic district. We have businesses coming and going, changing signage, but not doing any major work that fits any of the other categories or any of the triggers listed for a site plan or even a minor site plan. And then to have to get there by referencing a negative and reading that into a requirement. It's just almost it's it's illogical to be honest. And I I don't mean that um abrasively or anything at all. It is. You're absolutely right. Yeah. But I but I again would say that and we we encountered this a lot passing the bug. your council person is is probably the best person to start to debate this amongst their fellow council people and try to make a change to it because it's not something that that this should prefer to go into site plans for that like approval vote but is that something that like is is needed just based on like historic committee not having the the power to because the historic committee is the only advisory in nature Somebody needs to be the one that that basically stamps it approved. Right. If the committee approves it, can I ever imagine the planning commission chair rejecting it? No. Right. And do I ever think the planning commission chair will approve something the horse historic commission has rejected? No. So let's say you change this wording though. It's still it's this wording was not in there. They go to historic committee. the committee says, "Yeah, it looks good." Like, what where do you see the different like how should it I think if we redid the zoning, the way I would address it is that a signed

permit within the historic district. Yeah. Would be the $100 level, $50 outside the historic district, $100 inside the historic district. And then that signed permit after review by the historic commission would automatically go to the planning commission. It would save the business owner one step instead of making it a two-step process. It would become a one-step process. I still believe it keep the spirit what we have to do as far as keeping the historic commission advisory and nature state law. We need to slow. Yeah. So so I I think we can get there. Unfortunately, we're not there right now. And it's the nature of the beast. You enact a zoning code as one big thing and then you tweak it. You tweak it by adding a historic overlay. You tweak it by having the things that deal with flood zones. You tweak it by potentially adding an art commission someday. I mean all those things tweak it and then they little pieces in it don't necessarily fit well together. So when we redo it again hopefully those things will fit together. Um, you know, and as we go through that process, there's a chance for business owners, for landlords to be involved, for business owners to be involved and their representatives and their representatives. So, you know, come forward and and it's not just simple as the historic district says yes to this and then the build um just gives you a permit based on historic meeting of the historic No. No. Why? Why? Yeah. Because right now that's not what the law requirements has to be requirements. What? Right now the law says that we do it this way. Yeah. No, I know. If we were to change it, if we were to change it, I I I think we can either do it one per Yeah. with one permit. And I think we could either do it ending up with it being approved by the planning commission chair, which is what we do now, or we probably could have it approved by the code enforcement officer

once the historic commission has given an advisory opinion, which is essentially all this is just right. So just Yeah. But instead of doing it in one simple step, our code does it in two convoluted steps and doesn't even tell you clearly you have to do it. Yeah. So I just got to say the interpretation is definitely the code is terribly. Yeah, that's that and that's certainly in our time frame to change it as we're working with EDR up to what the zoning will follow that eventually. So if I get to the fact we're looking to give a opinion on this or moving it you guys need to give your interpretation or another me or you don't. And is it are we referencing that it's um whether or not it requires minor site plan. So 300-137 I 300137 I is the second method. Thank you. Is it P3132 P3? Right. Yes. And then the minor site plan provision is 3137I. Oh, which in Captain Everett's opinion, he he he spells that out. So basically you can either confirm his opinion or you could give your own interpretation. Yeah.

I'm inclined to procedures sympathetic with with the situation. But um think if we're going to be consistent, we've had things like this before. had really valid reasons for making changes but um the procedure has to follow and I mentioned to our other members too is that the u council people your own council people our own council people we're rural residents of the city too u need to understand that those are the kinds of things that can be straightened out but they have to be done by council it's not just showing up for a meeting once a month or not and and doing the basics and sometimes it's looking looking at what a constituent has to say and see what can happen and I if it were we can certainly at this point here I'm going to listen to my to the codes officer you know I I because I yet I'm sympathetic because Mr. Lewis said, you know, issues that are are common place. This is more than you're you're you're one of several. You're at least one who came through eloquently and clearly describe your your situation. But I think that the uh that what we're here to do is and and Roy will tell you we've there's some things where we don't agree, but it's usually something on on the site having to do with the site itself, something unique to that. situation as it applies and uh and that's where I I think I have to this this group I don't you guys

have unfortunately yeah I I you know every every business that's down there is is is one that we want to see grow and become successful and the more diverse the better I think you know like the chamber down there or nonprofit or or a store like that is it's important but there have to be consistency best way to closure that is is maybe to go and see your council person and then share that share this is very well done and then they'll they'll yeah because as far as like getting our laws updated it's not these process it requires Sure. A lawyer and money and that's all approved through common counsel that if that doesn't I would just like to take a moment to say I I do appreciate this and like you said it is really poorly written but I've consistently done this with everyone in historical district and I do and I would say it would never I would not I would not try to I mean Our comprehensive plans get redone following with our with our our zoning. Yeah. It's going to say our zoning law is not going to get updated. Not going to get done when the when it gets redone in December or whenever the comprehensive is done. So all right. Um however that there will be a committee I'm sure to redo the zoning law which you are more than I've read a lot about article uh eight that's about it that's all I know I'm just that there will be a committee

I think you'd be well versed to be yeah especially a business person it's not something that they don't see a lot of they have a lot of people who are are very skilled or school rather in in historic preservation or something like that. But it's one thing to do adaptive really is the term that they use but another thing to see that reality so I like the idea of one permit. Yeah, I like this. That's that was one of the most confusing parts too is there's two, you know, the sign permit and the other permit and they're ending up at the same place. like all the site is sign because if you're if you're reviewing the site site plan you're right way you're going to say where's the sign correct all the information is the same makes sense to me yeah that's that's where we this this has to has to stay yep I appreciate a good deal thanks for coming in thank you and your and your very well here soft thanks We're done, right? Miss Great. So, the who was going to make the mo the motion was to uphold the interpretation of the termination of this zoning officer. I'll move to the to hold the termination. I'll second all in favor. I didn't I looked it over. I didn't see I I wasn't here so I have no say in my role here.

Looked good to me. Good to me. Everybody's chair did well. Yes. Single. Yes. It's all right. With I'm going to move to approve the you approve the minutes and second has been made. All in favor say I. Right. So we journeyed in Turkey.