Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

I'd like to call to order the con concord towns and zoning commission for Tuesday, November 4th, 2025. Please rise and join me in the pledge of allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you everybody. Thank you. Mike, would you please give us a roll call? Sure. [clears throat]

Uh Mr. here. Mr. Schindler here, Mr. Eiffel here, Mr. Martell here. Mr. Terry Yako here.

Everybody. Okay, that's everybody. I'm I'm not here. I can call other people. [laughter] Okay. Approval of minutes. Did we get any minutes? I didn't have minutes. I don't have no minutes. We didn't get any minutes. No, I was just looking. I had I had this package and I thought there were minutes in there, but there not. Okay. So, we will not have approval of minutes and we will table it until we get them. Correspondence. Uh, none, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. None. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Okay. None for me. None.

None for me. None for me either. [snorts] Mike, do you have any? I got nothing. Okay. Jeez, this is going quick. Uh I I would like to say we have Mike Gear here uh to to substitute for Heather who's whatever wherever she is. I'm not sure. She said she wasn't going to be here. So Mike's coming in and going to take over. Okay. Zoning and inspector report. Mike, do you have anything?

No, I mean nothing formal. Uh Crossroads did open. Um they had the ribbon cutting and they're officially open on the 31st. Um and we did get got our we got some plans back from Primrose. Um, you know, we have the conditions that they were approved under, so we're going to review those this coming week. But that's it. Okay. Thank you. Anybody on the phone that you know of? No. Okay. So, we don't have any uh public participation here. New business. Anybody on the commission have any new business they want [clears throat] to bring up? No, sir.

No, sir. I don't have any either. Mike, do you have any new business? No, sir. Old business number one, work session to review sign regulations, and we'll get to that in in a minute. Number two is tabled until July 2026. You know what? That's going to be right around the corner. It sure seems that way, doesn't it?

Yeah, it's [clears throat] going quick. So, let's cross off number two and let's work on number one. Perfect. What I'd like to do is we have two sets of conditions or definitions or whatever. And what I'd like to do is I'd like to go over the the proposed definitions and uh the the two the two small packages that Heather gave us or Mike and then go paragraph by paragraph on section th section 30. [snorts] Okay, if we if we can have two or three paragraphs, we don't have any comments. Boom. We just pass over and go. Now, I don't think we're going to get through the whole thing. I'm not going to sit here until 10:00 at night making sure we got get done with section 30.

No, we're going to have 45, 50 minutes, 55 minutes or whatever of going through the regulation and then we're going to call it quits. Maybe an hour and 15, whatever. But it's not going to be it's not going to go past 8:15 cuz that's okay with everybody. That's how we proceed. Fine with me.

Okay. So, if we pick up uh let's do amendment A, proposed sign definitions. And [snorts] I'm I'm hoping everybody read this. Do anybody have any comments on existing section 30.02 sign and permanent sign on the attachment we're talking about? Correct. The attachment. Attachment A. [clears throat] Attachment A. Attachment A. Mhm.

Hearing none. Proposed. Please note section 30 30.09 09 temporary signs like new language is proposed in subsection A stating the following and there's there's the following. Now then next is sign and then a little italicize what the sap comment has and then there's a permanent sign and a temporary sign. So anybody have any comments on that?

I have a question. Okay, I'll make this quick and easy. On the area under the proposed and it says sign, is institution considered schools? Is that why they don't put school in there too or is that is institution on its own? And should school be added to that? Real simple question. It's not a lot to get into, but we define it. Um, no, I haven't seen institution in here. Well, institution is in there. Yeah. Oh, yeah. My question is, should we should we add school to that? [cough and clears throat] So, we did have an institutional use definition that sort of pointed to

like public or private school. Okay. But that again was institutional use and we're actually um proposing to delete that and actually in our amendment. Right. So, right. I mean, [cough and clears throat] you could there's lots of things I think that could add be added to that. I mean, do you really want it's up? No. Um, I think institution would include school, but if you if you think it needs to be No, I don't. I just as long as that's the interpretation, then I'm fine with it. That's my question. Yeah. I'm not I don't think it needs to be added. I hate adding anything. [laughter] I'm I'm not an adder. I'm a taker. So, uh, you know, I I but I want to make sure that it's not somebody who doesn't public and private, right?

Yes. As long as it's covered and you're comfortable with institution, that's fine. That was my only question. [snorts] Okay.

Uh, the question I have and more the more I think about it, maybe I don't have a question. Uh but it says please note in section 30.09 temporary signs new language is proposed in subsection A stating the following signs that meet the standards of this section. Should that be a temporary sides or is that just implied that because it's under temporary sides is a heading? Then I have the I thought maybe adding signs in the last sentence too. Temporary signs that do not meet the standards of this subsection are subject to the standards for permanent signs. Do we have to add temporary in the in the verbiage as a in addition to the heading? Um, if I may, Mr. Chairman, as this take that out of context, but if you look at the definition in the actual code that's written, it's for me it's not ambiguous. and you read 309A.

Okay. In the actual code, the markup how it reads 309A. It's the it's under the subject. It's under the section temporary science. So, it's [clears throat] it's okay. Okay. Yeah, I'll go for that. Okay. I'll go for that. Uh sign it. Now, permanent sign and temporary sign.

I had a question, Mr. Chairman, before uh um since you brought it up. The the signs the [clears throat] meet the standards for a temporary sign, it's uh it's not counted in the total square footage of the permanent signage allowed on any property, which is the definition here. And I understand that. But did and it's perhaps it's in here, but are they are is a property limited to a certain number of temporary signs? I thought I saw it in there based on the front if I'm not mistaken. Is that what it Yeah, it it said it in there, which I'm almost positive it did. Um,

so I'm just wondering that you got signs galore. You got permanent signs and then the temporary signs and then does that how far does it go? 300 me. Well, yeah. I mean 30.09 does cover we do have a 3009 C each residential unit non-residential partial shall be permitted to have one or more temporary sign and it goes on from there. That's what you're looking for, right? We don't limit the number but the total square footage. No, we do. Each residential unit in that parcel should be printed at one. Oh, it says or more. Or more.

Or more. That's why I was asking, but I thought I read somewhere. I could have. It gives us all the measurements for the signs themselves, but not about I haven't found anything about so picturing go up. I've seen already where are you in 30.09 uh 309. Yes, Mr. Chairman. The D [clears throat] C one. Okay. C1.

C1. That's nonresidential district. It's none of the somewhere

one or more temporary sign or signs either as a building window or freestanding sign provided that no such sign shall be larger than 8 square ft or height greater than 4 ft and the combined area of all temporary signs on the site shall not exceed 12 square ft. So you're not limiting the number of signs, right?

You're limiting the number of square feet. Correct. So the reason I brought up the question was [clears throat] administrative. How does zoning inspector when it says it's not counted in the total square footage of permanent signs? so forth. A property has permanent signs and they could be any number of temporary signs on the same property if from understanding what we're saying. I'm reading it right. Yes. Yeah. a number

and how do you let me ask you and and to our point of with today right what if you have multiple temporary signs which are uh you know uh political signs right would be a temporary sign right and there's multiple causes or issues that you're uh want to put your your your your position out there on and let's say there's 12 different issues I mean how do you limit that person to what what's the So we do have right legis or we have proposed language for signs during elections. So like I saw that. Yeah. Right. [clears throat]

And we talked about how difficult that is to enforce even Heather, right? Saying listen, it's this time frame. It's not really about Yes. The time frame is um you know hinged and contingent to certain to election times, but um it essentially says that there's really right there's really no limit as long as it's within that time frame, right? And then it meets also that the sign cannot be larger than eight square feet or you know but so there is no limit to the number during that time frame right which is so right but it's tough to enforce the I mean again it's proposed language

not going to be it's very uh and we're going to have to talk about it right before we probably move forward and actually investigate any complaints or anything like that because that's going to be a tough but Right. I if it's a [clears throat] temporary sign back to the back to the uh primary or elections or whatever we have 12 issues, we could have 12 one square foot signs plotted, you know, placed all over this lot. It's possible. And maybe a permanent sign or two. Okay, that's all right. So now after a certain period of time, right,

they're still there and they shouldn't be there. I mean, we're not going to go out and walk every street. I'm sure they're not. I hope that I hope that that's not what they're wasting. No. No. Right. And you're not going to drive every street either. You're going to get a call from somebody, some neighbor that says, "Hey, this dude across the street has 12 signs up." Yeah.

12 plus a few other ones. What do we do about it? And that's when we go out and take a look at it and see if it meets the regulation or doesn't. And I'll tell you in my my experience as in the last five to 10 years, it seems like these campaigns are on it about getting these signs down faster than on both I mean on all political spectrums, right? I mean, they're out there the next day or I literally seen them the next day getting their signs down. And so I don't think that that's even I mean, I know we have to watch it, but we have to but that's what we're doing, right? You drive down the road, somebody complains, okay, great. We check it out. But at the end of the day, I think that's how it's going to happen. We're seeing it a lot. It's a lot different.

So, you okay, Rich? Yes. I I think um I think it gives the property owner a lot of leeway during that time period with the amount of if we're not restricting the square footage. We are restricting the square footage per sign, but not the number of

Right. And then in the permanent signs, we're restricting the square footage based upon lineal foot of building frontage up to 30 square ft. 30 square ft building size. It is small. 30 ft. Mhm. 5x6 for a home. No, for a building, you said. Oh, I'm sorry, M. I've meant residential district in a residential district they can have 30 square feet permanent and then then you add in all temporaries that they put up on issues. So it's like

wow. But now, do you do you think do you really think the 30 square foot one permanent permanent permanent is going to be the same type of sign as the 12 other ones in with respect to uh construction topic? I I I think they're going to be different. Yeah. Especially in residential. I Yeah. I agree. Yeah. Residential.

What's a permanent sign? What do people have up for permanent sign in a residential district? I I don't know. Well, okay. So, great. I'm glad you asked that cuz I was I I thought about a [clears throat] second. What if I wanted to take and put my name on my in a stone in my house? Is that considered and carved it in there? Yeah. Does that become a sign? Yeah, I think so. I do somebody because there there is a sign attached to the residential that's quite small. I mean, a friend of mine bought me this beautiful decorative thing that says hotel established the year my wife and I got married and go between my garage doors, right? Well, it's bigger than one and a half square feet.

And I'm like, well, and it's beautiful, right? It's great. It's not this. But I do I do I have to get a permit for that because it's or a variance, right? Because [clears throat] it's bigger than And you see these all I have this big rock that I actually put in my front of my house as you enter my door that I was going to get my name and my family's carved in to that stone. Is that is that considered a sign? Which it is. Yeah. Yeah. Right. But it's bigger than one and a half square feet. That's that's for every lineal foot of frontage. There's a lineal for the frontage. I have a lot of footage, but not everybody does though. Well, you asked me what kind of sign could you put on a house? Yeah, a stone. A stone name. Yeah, right.

No, you took that literally. Last month I said John lives here. [laughter] No, I I think that's a sign. And I that's going to I'm waiting on flags for real. All right. So So I there's a lot of topic on this. Like I said, I read through this and I was really it for now. What? It peak my interest a lot. What other kind of sign would be in a residential? Permanent. Permanent sign. Permanent is the key because temporary guy sells eggs on Gle Road, right? And I have two neighbors on my development. Their kids have won awards for the year. Outstanding students. Yes.

And they have their signs out there all the time. And that's fine. I think that's that's I brag about my child too. Yeah. If that was great, you know, one has to do with going to a Catholic school. Fine. And the other one, of course, is a public school. And they their children won awards. God bless them. And God bless. If I may, Frank, we're not regulating content. The signs are illegal. But you're regulating the time that it could be up. Yes. Yeah. If it's up there all the time, it's illegal. Well, that's true. But [laughter] unless we like you say residents complain about it, right? It's going to stay,

right? I don't think Mike goes down the streets and sees something like that and tells the neighbor to take it off. Do you, Mike? No. I think if we set a standard, right? I think that's what we're trying to do, right? Is to set a I understand. Yeah. Right. Okay. I understand. Now, if somebody has a business in his basement and he puts this permanent sign and a lie woodworking by Joe. Sure.

And he puts this permanent sign out front. He's got to go by these regulations. But I don't I don't see every person in a residential development or anything like that doing that. Yeah, it's going to be few and far in between. [clears throat] Yeah, I I I agree. But the my question is really in in total when you combine temporary signs with permanent signing in a residential district, right? And that I think my thinking through this and talking through this I can see very limited permanent signs that a resident permit to begin with and and the temporary is going to fall under the time frame. So right.

Okay. Okay. I mean for me unless somebody else has a question. Uh I'm think gosh darn it, we're still on the amendment. Uh [laughter] down [clears throat] on permanent sign. My question is how about windows? We say windows and temporary sign, but we don't say windows and permanent sign.

Well, you just segueed into one of my big questions throughout this whole entire thing as well. So, I'm I'll be more than happy to take us down this rabbit hole. Like I said, this is one of my favorite things to talk about here. So, one of the concerns I have with the windows in in in segment in this throughout it is window perf is the stuff you see that they put on windows uh for restaurants or um you know you can see it has an advertisement on the outside of it but you can see it through the through through the inside you can see out. Okay. And there's some regulation in here is the size that you can advertise on a window, right?

And windows are bigger than what we have in our text. And so if if for instance um uh Pub Fredo or Lies wants to put window, especially uh because the sun sets to the west, I took this into consideration, too. A lot of businesses will do that as a sunblock coming in the windows as well. Um, is window proof considered a sign? And if it is, window purf's attached to the outside of the window, not the inside. But according to our the text that's in front of us, it says they can only attach advertised to the inside of the window.

So I think that this that needs to be looked a little bit more into as well. And it's a concern. And I I have I have it in residential districts as well. And then I have it in non-residential districts under D3, temporary window signs. Temporary sign shall be attached to the inside interior of the building. It should comply with section 30.5F. And I think we need to look at that because it's not attached to the inside, it's attached to the outside. F F Yeah. 30 What do I have here? Let's do it. 30.09D.

Okay. Yeah. But it's number three, temporary signs and non-residential. And then it says it should comply with 30.05F 50% of the window area. success district. But do do we say it's got to be on the inside? It says on interior. Yes. Mhm. Someplace it does. I remember it says Yeah, it says it right there. Yeah. D3.

Yeah. So roof side.

So where is your window sign first? It did the the first issue 30 what? 30.09 09. Yes. F which is on Um, if you take temporary signs, I remember you flip that page over. D is temporary signs in non-residential districts. What page? What page? 30.29. Nope. Nope. 30.09. So page, he asked me for the page. Oh gosh. Okay. Um, and uh I don't know if it's 30.8. Sorry, Hum. I'm in the markup so I can see it. Oh yeah. 30.8. You the page numbers change. Oh yeah, you're right. The page numbers change.

Yes, they do. Here, use that because I'm I'm not on the markup. I'm in I'm on the one you're [clears throat] hate to be causing an but I think it go back 30. Okay. temporary signs, temporary banners.

Did you get it? 30.09 D. 30.09 D. Okay. Three three temporary windows. There it is. window side shall be attached to the interior of the building and comply with 30.05F. Okay. So, and and I've seen that a number of times.

For instance, my parents had a grocery store at the end of the convenience food. We built that in 1977 by the conquer plaza. And back then there used to be a wire that went across. You hang paper clips and you hang the signing. That right there is exactly for that. It's on the interior of the building. Hang the sign. Okay. Boom. Temporary. Temporary. Window proof, too. It's not temporary because it if you're going to spend that much money to get that put on your window, you're you're going to want it up for at least 6 months, right? If it needs to develop. So, you're you've got an acronym in there. What what is window what window? You've seen it. It's called window perf. It goes on the outside of a window. Okay. And you've seen it. You might not even realize you do. There might be advertising on it.

Oh, that Oh, perfume is what it's called. It's perf cuz you can see through it. It's perforated. I apologize. But that's temporary. It is temporary. Yes. I thought it's permanent. No, it's not. It get it gets pul it can get pulled off that can get and the following season they can put another one up and it's it's it can be permanent for a while even then falls in get touched in here too and then okay it's but windows are bigger than what are even are the size we allow them to do got it in our text but under permanent signs the window sign correct says painted placed in or on a window doesn't say interior exterior

correct is that what your point is correct but on the non-residential on the temporary. It says it has to be on the interior. Okay. And I Is that is that is it a permanent or is it a temporary? You follow me? I may get too deep in the weeds here, but it's It could be permanent because one time I went to a neighborhood and there's a sign on a guy's front door. Uhhuh. And the sign said, "Don't worry about the dog." And it's a sign of a muzzle of a gun shooting at [clears throat] you. And he's had that in his in his front door for years. Right.

Isn't the point of this is that a temporary window sign shall not be installed on the exterior of the window? Isn't that just the point? Cor it is, but Okay. But that's a temporary it could be a temporary sign as well. I mean it's it's when you could on the exterior. On the exterior. Yes. Oh yes. Well, this is saying you can't put them on the exterior. That's all okay. Okay. [laughter] Oh okay. Point. I I I think that there's a lot of businesses that that do that on the exterior. Yes, sir. Got it. Okay. Oh, I Yeah, I agree with John. There's a lot of businesses that do it.

Yeah. So, we got to put something in there to address it. I think so. I I I do. It's it and it's maybe it's an update as far as I mean it's an updated technology, but it's not. It's been around for a while, but I think we need to address it is my point because somebody call and say, "Well, that's that's non-conforming." And I I have my note on it. So, I mean, I I'll talk said this is not going to get solved tonight. No, no, no. Perhaps for Mike's notes about this. Well, the notes are all on the video, but yeah, go ahead. Oh, yeah. The temporary window signs shall comply with section 305F and remove the fact that it's attached to the interior. Just

remove the fact that's interior. And I It shall comply with 305F. Correct. And the and the I think that the percentage you're going to see too because that that it has to be done on the entire window, right? It's not just something that stop halfway up. Makes sense. Mhm. Mhm. Do they do they attach to they design it and attach it as the at the whole size of the whole size sides of the window? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And then they explain window perf to you. [laughter] Well, here you go. And then do they peel it off? Yes. Yes. And use it again or throw it away? Throw it away.

Okay. Okay. It can it it's made to last longer than it's made to last but it's see it could be seasonal it you know it's Wendy's could do it or any any any and I don't even just use fast food because you might have like I said Lies Lies can do it you know as an advertising is it just like the [clears throat] stuff I see on the back of a truck window. Yes that's exactly what it is. Great great question. That's exact on on car wraps and stuff and you see it you can see Yes. right through it. Yes, sir. That's exactly what it is. Yep. You nailed it. That's it. So, just something to think about. So, well, no. I I think we you brought it up. I think we we're going to have more than one shot.

Oh, yeah. Right. So, let's make sure we get something in there that addresses that just so that I think putting on the interior only is is is conflicting what people can do. Right. That's the first point. That's the first point. Second point is besides it should be able to encompass the window because it's going to go all the way up the window. Okay. Okay. All right. On attachment A. Any questions on first page? Feedback. Well, yeah. We're supposed to be right.

That's right. Now, page two and page three are the same thing in different Mhm. counties and cities and so on and so forth. Mhm. So, that's just what information only. I did, [snorts] but I did have some comments, but who cares? What from the other communities? Is that what you said? I'm sorry. Yeah. Page two, three, and four of the communities. So, just reference material. It was good reference points.

Yeah, it was. It was. It was good reading. It was good reading except for window signs. [laughter] Oh, yeah. Thank you, John. Well, you guys all know window person. [laughter] Yeah. So, does all kinds. Oh, yeah.

Okay. Attachment B, flag pole regulations. flag. Any fabric, banner, or bunting used as a symbol of government, political subdivision, corporate or commercial entity or institution, or used to convey any message or otherwise used in a manner consistent with the definition of a sign. Max 40 ft. No building mounted flag pole shall exceed the height of the roof of the building it's mounted to. Okay. No flag pole shall be constructed closer to any lot line than the length of a flag pole or the required building setback, whichever is greater. No more than one flag pole shall be permitted for each 150 ft of frontage or portion thereof. Any comments? Any questions?

Yes. Go ahead. Yes. Um, number three. Um, so whichever is greater of between the length and the required setback. Um, so if you if the freestanding pole is 40 ft and the sideyard is 15. Yep. The larger is going to cover. Yeah. And that you don't want the flag pole if it falls down.

No, you don't. You don't. So if it's if it's a 40ft flag and you have a 15 ft setback, [snorts] you got to go 40 ft in. So the flag pole doesn't hit the other person's property.

I misread that then. You did. Yeah, cuz I was I was surprised you brought that one up. It's 40 foot in, right? Should we construct a closer? No. She flagpole. Okay, this is the negative. No fiber closer to any lot line than the length of the setback. Whichever is greater. Now, if you have a 40ft flag pole and a 50ft setback. Oh, I know. I know. I misread it. Okay. Okay. Yeah, I misread it. Um the second question was I found it interesting the mentor in Madison having the height proportional to the flag size. I

I did too. seem to make sense, but I don't know. It seems to make sense. The proportionate, [clears throat] but perhaps that maximum flag size is bigger than our the flag size makes sense with the 40 foot makes sense with the 6x that be silly to put 3x5 40t because I plan on putting up a flag on my property. I will be more than 40 feet from the property. I can assure you that. I was happy to see what we have as a resident of this as a resident. I was happy to see that we could go and I think I brought this up at the last meeting. Um I think that that's a that's a fair height.

So So the restriction then goes to banners under here. The restriction on the size of the flag. Is that correct? There's no there's no mention of the maximum flag size. No. Correct. There's no mention flag as mentor has or so it falls to this. It falls to our coat. Yeah. If we have do we have I don't think we have flag size in there. We have banner. I thought it fell under B. Didn't we have this coin this? We don't have a flag size. No, no, no. We talked that flags are banners. Didn't we didn't we talk about that last month? Cuz I was asking whether we I we were talking about I don't Is that what we said?

I call that. [snorts and clears throat] What's a sign? Um, light pole banners is 308. A temporary banner or sign is designed attached to a permanent light pole or other pole. Light pole banner is completely different than completely different. Right. Right. So, a flag is not not a banner. Not it's not considered a flag pole or a light pole banner.

So we don't restrict the size of the flag. I don't believe that's I think the topic that we talked about Rich was that we don't have a a flag size restriction because somebody had brought up we don't want to see we don't want to have like the flag going up uh I90 [clears throat] 528. I mean, it's amazing when it's flying in the air, but I mean, we don't That got brought up about not having that in our township. Um, but you're not going to be able to put [snorts] that on a 40 foot flag pole either, right? Cuz cuz and it also it's bigger than 40 foot. And it also we also have a restriction on the height that the flag has to be on the ground in our in our in our text. Okay. Okay.

Which I love because I agree. Should never come close. [clears throat] Great. Good. That's all I did. Okay. Thank you. Well, we should have the size of the flag relative to the flag pole. I thought that was an interesting take. I mean I I mean I think that a 6x10 flag is pretty good size and I'm one that believes that there should be no limits, but I mean I think that that's relative that's a pretty good Yeah. So we should adapt something at least like men or similar medicine has. That's my suggestion. It seems appropriate.

That's a pretty Go ahead. I think I think Madison and M I I again I'm not one for restriction, but I think that you know in this case cuz it's Americ but I but I think that that that's a pretty good that that's a r a nice ratio. That's a nice ratio, right? Yeah. I I thought that was pretty good and I said why not in Concord ranks? Say again. Why not? The same comment. I Yeah. Okay. Because I I mean I've seen flags oversized. Monster. Oh, yeah. Big time. Big. Yeah. So, somebody could do that under So, we're saying our maximum height is 40 foot. Yeah.

And between 20 and 40 foot, we have regulations from the size of the flag poles. And I think if I'm not mistaken, I think those are common cuz I'm looked into putting up a flag pole on my property. That's why I'm so passionate about this too. Um 4x6. That's the height you were thinking of. 40 foot because if I put it in the middle of my property, which is how much you do have 5 and a half acres. Um cuz that was going to be my concern if you a lot of acorage, right? Mhm. And then how high could you go with that with that flag pole? Right. So you don't want something like you see on 95 28 in. Right. But I don't want to put up a 20 foot flag pole in my property or look like it gets lost. You got it.

And I'm a pretty patriotic me. Yep. And I think that is very And and if but if I wanted to put up a 20ft cycle pole in my front yard, which I'm I cuz my house is built in 1880 on the road. If I wanted to 20 foot would would be below the even my the height the ridge of my house. Okay. And a 4x6 would be that'd be reasonable. But I'm not going to do that. But I mean if I were it wouldn't be, you know. Yeah. Uh Gordon Lucas across the street from me has got one and he's I think if I'm not mistaken his flag pole is about 20 feet tall and he has a 4x6 flag on it and it's you know it's beautiful. Yeah. This is for residential and commercial all around. I

I would think so. Yeah, I would. Yes. I'll just throw in real quick. So the flag pole heights and the flag sizes. So, I I dug into that a little more, too. Most websites, like places where you can order flag poles and flags, I did the same. I got a 24 foot and a 22 foot. The size of the flag that they recommend is based off of like the wind pull that could be on it that could arguably [snorts] cause it to fall or, you know, get knocked over or whatever. So, I would agree. I think that definitely kind of sticking with a 4x6 for a 20 or Yeah. Yeah. I thought safety standards.

I thought I do too. I really re I've been researching these five poles and that's this is this is pretty much conducive to what they're selling as well as what's out there. Sure. So I I guess our recommendation is to take the men and maxing the whole thing. I would do the whole thing. I would just do that. I would take what we have and then incorporate that box. Sure. Well, yeah, but you know, well, yeah, you got to do they're different. You got to do f five. And because the other ones, two, three, four are already in there.

And what's six, eight say last and I 8 ft above green. That's probably not a bad thing. So five and six plus the the the the table I think should be incorporated into into Yeah. If we're going to do it, I think that's good.

The other thing if I may in the mentor Madison the the definition of what flag means is is [snorts] I think is proper compared to what the proposed language. That's why I got confused because it says when you read the proposed first page Russ says banner. You know what you're you're right. So [clears throat] that's why I was asking about is this a b flag is a banner. Come on pages. Well in the definition I I I know what you're saying. I think in our definition,

a a flag can be a banner. Like a banner could fall under the definition of flag, but a but a banner is not necessarily a flag, [laughter] if that makes sense. So, you know, it does. A fish is a fish, but you know, yeah. So, we we keep banner under the flag definition because a flag could take the shape of a banner, but a banner is something [snorts] that's different. Well, sometimes in parades you'll see the people in the front marching. That's a banner they're carrying with them. In some cases, it could be a flag, right? For school. Legal definition that Brian,

I don't think so. I mean, I know we we try to define uh flag sign. We take out we're proposing taking out banner like what a commercial banner is, but then we also kind of define flags in the United States and how they're supposed to be flown. It's a definition. It is definition. together both flag United States is actually in 30.10 [clears throat] flag sign. But again, the flag itself, the way we've defined it, we're including other things, not just flags of the United States. Right. Right. Right. Right. Correct. Yep. Right. So, Right. Okay.

Is there any higher rulings on that, too, or not? Well, I mean, like an Ohio state flag, right? Yeah, it's got to be below the stars and the stripes, right? Because the flags of the United if you're going to fly the United States flag, right? The protocol is that's the first and and it's referenced correct. You reference that in but let's say that you just have a flag pole up and you want to put up an Ohio house. Mhm. That still falls under our definition as a flag, right? Mhm. Um if you're going to put up a flag pole, it still doesn't meet all of those sure

requirements, right? So um but I think in mentor and Madison's right it seems to suggest well I don't know it suggests it's a government or political subdivision flag but but it also says not limited to so a symbol of symbol of a government or political so I mean I guess maybe they would not consider an Ohio state flag probably a flag in mentor or man they would call it maybe something else a banner I don't [clears throat] I think that's right. You fly the banner of your de state flag. You mean the Ohio State University or you talking about the state of Ohio?

No, I'm sorry. No, no, I'm sorry. The Ohio State University. OSU. Okay. Right. Very confusing. It is confusing. Yes. I feel like that's I've seen that flag. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. On the sides of houses and game day. Absolutely. You in the windows. In the window. [clears throat] You're different. That was good. That was really good. So, okay. So, to Mike's point, a B a banner is a temporary sign and a flag could be a banner. A banner could be a flag. I don't know. A banner sign says it's temporary, right? That's what our definition is. But the flag

could is a banner. Could be a banner. Could be banner. fabric banner or bunks and gear could arguably be temporary, but a flag can also be a permanent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That covers institution, right? But I also don't think covers institution that would I don't think mentor and Madison necessarily preclude the like the Ohio State. I think they're the way I read it, they're really just eliminating commercial type science. That's they say used for the display of non-commercial copy. So, my interpretation was they're really just saying you could do whatever kind you want, but it can't be commercial.

Mhm. Can't be advertising, right? That that's how I interpret it, but you guys can't be can or cannot be advert. [clears throat] not be ad like commercial advertising. If I remember correctly, when my father-in-law was developing, he would put flags up on the um this is years ago, a long time a long time ago. But then they couldn't say um soul development group on them. They couldn't say the name of the subdivision, but they could say open, right? The open flags, the red, white, and blue open flags. And those went up. They had to go up on a Friday and come down on Sunday night. And they were up for the weekend. And that would be considered a temper. So that might be what you're talking about when they relate to banners. That would make sense a lot of sense. That's on a flag.

Yeah. It's a banner. Open banner, right? Um but I remember that's we used to do. We'd put up we have I had to [clears throat] put them up put them up on Friday after 4, I think it was, and they were down. They were down by se at Sunday night before before Monday morning. And that's when the homes were open for right. Yeah. They don't do that anymore open houses. They don't do anymore. But flag pole going once. Oh, for what we talked about, I think it's I think solid. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to add the mentor five and six and table. Yeah,

that's our comment. Oh, I was suggesting replacing it entirely. I think that's what you're saying. That's what I think. Well, one, two, three, four are exactly what we have already. You're [clears throat] saying the actual the text. I'm saying the actual text because it follows the definition. Yeah. And for me, it removes the word banner. [laughter] Yeah. I I would avoid that. I proposed. What about bunting? I know the bunting. That's an odd one to have in there to begin. Well, you know, and I I may be making assumptions, but I'm thinking of like you've seen it on fences, right? Yeah. Right. It looks like the flag, right? But it's I call that bunting. I don't know if that it is. That's bunting. Okay. I mean, are we not going to include that as a flag?

Because that's in our definition right now, a flag, right? We have any fabric or bunting. And if we go, so how would you hang bunting on a flag pole? You don't have to, but I mean, you don't have to necessarily on a flag pole. I see what you're saying. You mean because we're talking about flag pole flag pole regulation, right? But it still is that we're defining what flag we're defining what the flag is within.

You know what is I I have a feeling there's got to be more to mentors flag I I maybe I'm wrong but we have flag ours is flag pole regulations. We're in that side that box of flag pole regulations. [clears throat] Yeah. Is there something that that to to mentors or or Madison villages that's that is outside of the flag pole that includes bunting and whatnot because I hate to limit somebody from putting bunting up. We do it here in concert if I'm not mistaken. We do. Well, we can I do it home at 4th of July. Yeah. Yeah. [cough and clears throat]

We can ask Heather and Mike to look into that. Yeah. how that's handled with with men. But you you like mentor's definition better than ours. Well, until Brady brought up the issue with my [laughter] Sorry. Sorry. Until she spoke. She spoke. Messed me up. Um, yeah. Definition of a flag, [clears throat] Lambick, banner, or bunting. I think we all agree though that the way it's worded and the way it's here, we probably agree that it's sufficient as far as flag pole go. Yes.

As far as everything the size is. Well, okay. Everything. Yeah. I'm sorry. Yeah. I'm sorry. The defy. So, the definition of flag is already exists. It's in there. Sure. This is flag pole. So we're referencing the definition within this. We're reading flagpole but flag is already defined as you said fabric banner abunting. Now this is flag pole. So right am correct. Okay. So it's really beyond the definition. Flag pole flag pole regulations are begin with one through six here because the definition is separate.

Yeah. Of a flag. This is flag pole. Correct. This section would appear whether it's going to be added in the or it's already added in. I'm sorry. Yeah. If you look at meners, they they define flag and then they put flags again before they go down 1 2 3 4. Mhm. Five six. Yeah. It's I'm I'm fine with deleting the definition of flag pole. Yeah. Take that out. We have start out with 1 2 3 4. That's what I'm saying. Right. Yeah. So you have your height and the size of the plastic. Yeah. So Bry's bunting

and it all deals well then then waiting. Then we have number five. We have number [clears throat] five. It says flags shall be proportion to the height of the flag pole. It still references flag pole. Mhm. Okay. I'm fine. I'm fine. Take out flags. Take out the definition and put one, two, three, four, five, six. And that's it. So we take out the chart. [clears throat] Yeah. And and the table with the table.

So we add men 1 through six and the table. Okay. I'm good with that. Everybody good with that? Gee, yes. It's only what time now? Yeah. And um 10:30. Yeah. [laughter] 10:30. Yeah. Good meeting. Okay. Well, we got through five pages. [clears throat] We got through 106. I appreciate it. And myself. Yes. Thank you for this. Appreciate it. Gentlemen, as always, have a great Take care. Take care of yourself. Thank you. I appreciate that.

Watch out for the wolves. Yeah, I will. Sorry that I have to leave. I apologize. No problem. Okay. Now, what I did is I went through the I I knew that son of a gun was going to go off. Uh what I did is I went through the proposed writing and followed along with the redacted. No, not redacted but marked up in red. So, this is the if you look at the one that's proposed, it's got no red on it whatsoever except mine. And mine's not red. Mine's blue. So, uh, how about 30.01 purpose, page and a half. Any questions or comments?

No comment. Okay, we're going over to 30.02 02 definitions and this is going to go on forever. Uh architectural features as defined below are not considered signs. I just hope they don't have any political figures up on Mhm. Mhm.

One building in stone. Mhm.

Now number 12. Any fabric banner or bunching? We we agree with that. We agree with that. I do. Can we talk about banner sign? I'm teasing [clears throat] [laughter] compared to I I do have this. You know you do. [laughter] Okay. First comment as we're going through definitions. Where is it? Mine was related to the flag. So that mine's that was the only question I had. So it's resolved.

That's resolved. Okay. My first question is on page four number 19. Marquee [clears throat] canopy or awning. A sign attached to the sophet or fascia of a marquee canopy roof projection over a walk or permanent awning. provided such sign shall not be placed on top of I wanted a comma there or project above such marquee canopy or similar it doesn't it just didn't run right

it did not flow right for me at all so I had after top of I had a comma and then or project or project not project or project above the top of such marquee.

I agree with you Mr. Chairman and and the other one the other comment I had was no picture. We got rid of the picture for that one. I'm okay. Mhm.

The wording I think is okay. And then my next question is [clears throat] [snorts] number 21. Off- premise sign. Any sign unrelated to a business or profession conducted or a commodity or service sold or offered upon the premise premise upon the premises where such sign is located. What can you give me an example? Um

it might it might clear because it

so one example that we had um this was might have been the beginning of this year um PY they're doing the development over at Ivy Ridge and they had asked for uh they had submitted a a sign permit to put a called a permit and it was going to be constructed as a permit but eventually it would come down uh sign at the corner of Cryle and Gurgled. There's a lot to the northeast that's owned by Route 44 LLC and they had been in talks to allow them to put a sign in a portion of it. Um but we denied it because it would be an off- premises sign. It doesn't have anything to do with [clears throat] what is happening on that lot

which is nothing right now. Correct. Okay. Okay. So I think that in my mind I think that off premises is it it's kind of a way to you know prevent like arguably commercial advertising on a vacant parcel or or a parcel that's not being used for what's going you know what you're advert putting on the sign without talking about advertising. Okay.

Okay. That's good. I understand. I'm okay now. Mhm. Okay. On premise now. Okay. No problem with that one. I'm okay. All right. Any questions? Up to the bottom of 30.4 religious artifact. Any questions as we're going through yet? Sorry. I Where are you at? 30. I'm on page 30.4 4 of the new page. Sorry. Number 26. Yeah. Number 26. Page 30. Oh, sorry. Okay.

Your page numbers I'm thinking. Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead. Okay. We're down to 26. [clears throat and cough] We don't specify how far in the past. So, I don't know if you wanted to party. It says religious artifact is a a religious object that was made by people in the past. It doesn't say how long in the past. So if you wanted to talk about that or bunting whatever. No, I didn't have any I didn't have any problem. [laughter] I'm just giving you a hard time. I I'm just It's getting late. I don't know.

Well, no. It's just 8:00. So, uh projecting sign. We had a picture before. We have no [clears throat] picture now. Okay.

Okay. I'll make it 30.5 page. Roof sign. any sign which is displayed above the ease of the building when the roof is pitched or above the height of the building with a flat roof. I thought we didn't want or was that just flags on the roof that was just flags and and not a sign? I don't recall. Or a banner or a button.

I don't recall that [laughter] one. Do you recall anything that says we didn't want a sign? We don't want We don't want a flag pole mounted to the top of a building, right? That's the one that we said, right?

But not a sign. So, we're okay. [snorts] Flag, not sign. Gotcha. Okay. Going down through sandwich board signs signs are in construction sign face all the way down through window sign. Window sign window sign Mr. Chairman. Okay, let's talk about window sign. So this does say interior exterior.

Yeah, which didn't occur to me until John brought it up earlier. Now I paid attention to the definition is interior exterior. So the [clears throat] his suggestion it it doesn't impact this because it's interior. It says it's interior exterior. Yeah. But I still think we have to address the the topic. Yeah. Yes. This suggestion doesn't that Yeah. It coincide. It doesn't impact the definition. Okay. Yeah. As far as I Yeah.

Okay. [clears throat] General computation 30.033. No. [clears throat and cough] Does that should that height be moved in? Should we pageant not pageant? The following are the general requirement measurement sign height. It's all over to the left. Should it be moved in? Can you see it? No. What are we talking about? Which 30.03. Uhhuh. The wording right under general computations.

You mean definitely indented. Yeah. Indented or moved in, whatever you call it.

Yeah. It's not lined up right. That wall sign definite on the wall sign area 30.5. Moving on to 30. No, moving on to 30.6 page. The graphics here help a lot. Yes, they do. Yes, they do. I agree. Now, I'm getting picky, Mike.

On two and three. Oh, no. No matter where you do it, whenever you say see figure one and two below or see figure two, the figure should be capitalized. Like I said, I'm getting picky. So, on to 30.7. Anybody have any questions so far? Jump up. No. Hey, see, we're making progress. [clears throat]

Okay, I'm on page 30.8. comments. I have a comment on C. [clears throat] Now tell me how tell me how I I will tell you how I interpret it. The height of a sign shall be measured from the base of the sign or supportive structure at its point of attachment to the ground. The topmost elements of the sign. A projecting of freestanding sign on a man-made base including a graded earth mount shall be measured from the grade of the near street, drive or parking area. And in that figure, it shows the the yellow line, vertical line to the left, shows it going all the way down to the street. I do not agree with that. The [clears throat] sign height should go to where it hits

the contour of the plot that it's on. Now, if there I mean, it should be bigger than the one on the left, but not all the way down to the street. Just really quick, this is in our current zone. This is the current one. Well, I Yeah. Okay. Okay. I think the current one I disagree with the current one. [laughter] Yeah. I I know a lot of this is just taken over from the existing one.

Sure. uh what I'm a little confused. This is just defining the height of a sign. This is what a height of a sign is. It's not saying thou shalt build it. That's what Right. This is say the height shall be measured from the street. Correct. That's all it's saying. It's not saying you can't build it. Yeah. But but the height of the sign, it's a definition.

Yeah. And that's shall be measured from the base of the sign. Mhm. to the ground, not down all the way down to the street to where it hits the the main the main area of the ground and where it's being attached. And if it's on a cut, if it's on a if it's on a uh an incline on a hill, you measure it from this end down to this end where the sign ends. You don't go all the way down to the street. Well, the difference though is this is a man-made base. So, I think they're thinking that this is a mound that was created not by nature. Right. Right. I don't care.

Oh, okay. Well, because if you think about how big that sign could be if you measured it from where you're talking about on this map, right? It could actually be taller than those trees. Mhm. If you look in the picture. Yeah. Yeah, I look I'm looking at [clears throat] the picture makes this sign really big. That picture does it's that's the height. Yeah, it's not the the sign's still the sign. It's restricted by definition of size.

This this is saying it's height. You go all the way down the area from where the sign, the concrete structure hits the ground all the way down to the street. Why is that part of the height of the sign? It's where you're measuring from. It's where you're measuring from um to determine the sign height. I'm measuring the sign height. Correct. Not the sign height from where it's going down to. Why don't I say it going down to the sewer, but I'm just saying I disagree with that. Okay.

If if the council wants to and the commission wants to live with it, that's fine. I'm not going to belabor it.

I'm thinking it's measured from the road to the hard surface that elevation. So you can see the sign properly because if it if you measure from the ground then this sign is it is going to be huge. So I think the measure from that street is proportionate to the sign height so you can vis visually see it correctly. Okay. What's your version? [laughter]

No, I understand what I'm saying. I I think the purpose I can't tell you what they originally thought, but I think the purpose was to prevent someone from circumventing our height regulation by building a mound to put their sign on top of. We see it similar with like fences. We've had sometimes where people are allowed you're allowed to have a 4ft fence in your front yard and people have said, "Well, what if I put a 4ft mound and then I put my fence on top of it?" Mhm. So, I think that's the concept that they were maybe looking for was, "Hey, you can't circumvent our height regulations by sticking a bunch of dirt underneath where you're putting your sign." Um, so that's why they call it the man-made line,

right? Yeah. So, but I understand where Hyon's coming from. I mean, if I'm going to measure, this is what I'm looking at. I'm looking at the base of the sign to the top of the sign right here. So, oh, which one's that confusing? The left or the right? Whatever you want. I mean, this one. This one has left and right. Well, the street.

Yeah. Well, here's my street. Doesn't have a darn thing to do with design. I don't care. I I think I I think I understand. Let's move on. I'm not one of the believers, but uh but I not that I'm disagreeing. I just think it's a matter of standard. This is setting a standard for the Sinai so that there is no confusion on what you just drew. It's on a bill. all the time. My time. No, it's measured from the street. You you explained the swimming pool. So that that helps with this. Yeah,

that helps, right? Okay. Now, building frontage, page 30.9, comments. Um, actually before 30.8. Yeah. Again, only cuz John brought it up. There's a window sign again. This time it's the area of a window sign.

Yeah. Uh I'm I'm only pausing to say I the second sentence is very difficult to enforce or understand but just [laughter] what the area any glass area that one yeah the window area is by 4 ES or building facade elements shall be considered two separate windows.

Yeah. So [laughter] I can give you a great example. This Yeah. Go ahead. right up here on 608, the the um insurance company building where they they've swapped out a few times now, but it's on the if you're going towards Quail, it's on the right hand side, long white building. Oh, yeah. Yep. That way. Yeah. [laughter]

Yeah. Yeah. They they have window signs um along their top section of windows, but then there's bottom sections of windows and Heather and I

we were going around and around about like is that 4 in? Do I have to go measure this to see? Yes, it it is confusing. It makes it difficult for us to calculate. [clears throat] So, well, I think what Mike's going to say is uh or or John whenever we get his interpretation of that that window pace perf window perf perforation perf

perforation perf. We're going to have some new words in here. Okay. [laughter] Okay. And so did you go and force that or did you We still debate. No, we aired on the side of it was okay the way that they were doing. So they what they were doing conformed kind of regardless. So yeah.

Yeah. On the topic of window PF though, um, Auburn Career Center is doing a similar concept for the window PF. And then to bring it up when he was here, I totally space. But on their doors, they're putting up window decals, not necessarily window signs, but I guess kind of. Um, but it's window perf. So, I mean, if you if it's something you were like interested in seeing, maybe you can I mean that you can see through it from the inside. Correct. You can see through it from the inside, but you cannot see through it going from the outside. So, if you if you walk up to the door, it's just

their logo. And then if you're inside the building, you can see out. Okay. Is it on all the windows or just front? I don't know if they're doing I think they're doing it on all the doors that go that lead to the outside was what I understood. They were talking to Heather. Mhm. Um, and that's about it. But the A with this examation point in it. Mhm. Okay. Yeah. Facing Auburn Road. As far as I understood, it was all doors that went to the out to the exterior. Yeah. All the egress doors. So, yeah.

Okay. Uh, what time is it going to be? 8:20. Okay. Well, 30.04 is late. [clears throat] We're in Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, I'm sorry. So, permanent signs. Okay. Permanent signs for residential uses. Oh, and this is where I have comments all over the place. So maybe that's a good thing. Okay. Yeah, let's hold off. Do I okay

have any objections to calling it enough for one day, one night? No, not for me. Okay, good. Then our next meeting is December. December. You believe that? Ho ho ho. [laughter] December. Okay. Can I have a motion to adjourn? Mr. Chairman, I so move that we adjourn the meeting for this evening. Do I have a second? Second. Second. All in favor? I

I oppose. Abstain. Thank you very much. We'll pick this up again. I told you we weren't going to Thank you. The first few pages we got, we killed ourselves, but that's all right. I told you we weren't going to do this. We're ajourned. I don't think I in the beginning, did I?