Board of Zoning Adjustment - Special Meeting

Okay, good. heard Okay. We don't understand. Okay. So now, okay, ready? Let us call the  meeting to order. First order of business   is to announce the next meeting for this  commission be here in this room Tuesday   uh December 16th early and because of December and  um with that uh could we go to swear in the staff   please all those from the staff raise your right  hands. Do you swear and affirm that the testimony   you're about to give is the truth the whole truth  and nothing but the truth? If so say I do. I do.   Thank you very much. Uh, board roll call, please.  Yes. Uh, Mr. Whitman here. Miss Maniac here. Miss  

Bartley here. Miss Brown here. Mr. Lover here.  Mr. Pongonus. Is Miss Ritler here? Okay. No. Uh,   and Mr. Slanic here. Okay. We have a quorum.  Very good. Thank you. Uh, could you give us the   overview of the hearing format, please? Yes. Um,  so city staff, that's me, will present the staff   report and application materials. The applicant  uh will then come and sit at the presenters table   in the middle. They'll be sworn in and asked to  present their materials. If we have any registered   speakers, which I know we have one for the first  and second cases, they will approach the podium,   be sworn in, and provided three minutes to speak.  And then the commissioners will discuss the case   and ask any questions if needed. And I do want to  point out on the agenda item four, um we do have a   zonein project update. the project manager is on  his way. So what we'll do is we'll just proceed   with the agenda and then when he comes in he will  present whatever case follows. Uh what what we'll   take a pause from the cases and switch to that  and then go back to the cases. Very good. Um I   guess then we are ready for the first um uh case.  I think we need to do the minutes for October. Oh,   I'm sorry. That's okay. Thank you. The minutes.  May I have a motion to approve? Thank you. and   a second. Um they're on the table. Any questions,  comments, additions, deletions? Hearing none. All   in favor of um approving the minutes say I do.  I do. The minutes are approved. Thank you. And   our guest just walked in. If we want to go ahead  and stay with the agenda here, Belus. Absolutely. Lewis, this is like old time sake here. Sorry.  You all right? Sometime. No. Okay. I'm good.   Thank you. Okay. Yeah. Thanks. It's nice to be  back here. Good to see you all again. Um so,   um do you have the PowerPoint? Yeah. Could you  just identify yourself just so we all know? I  

don't know if you need to be sworn in. Might as  well. I think so. Yeah. Would you swear? Do you   swear and affirm that the testimony you're about  to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing   but the truth. If so, say I do. I do. Thank you  very much. And please identify yourself for the   record. Yeah. Lewis Taba uh planner for the city  of Columbus and the zonin project manager. Thank   you. Thank you. So thank you for the time uh to  present here today. Uh as you know the city of   Columbus is we are working on modernizing our  zoning code. Uh that initiative is called zone   in. Are we all pretty familiar with the zone in  initiative? Okay. So, our city uh zoning code is   over 70 years old and it's pretty dated and it  doesn't respond to the modern economy of what   we're trying to do in Columbus, right? We deal  with things such as uh cabarets in our zoning code   and basket weaving and those are all very noble  professions. I'm sure I haven't seen a cabaret in   a while. Uh but it doesn't deal with things such  as data centers very well or distribution centers   and what do those zoning standards look like?  So what we're doing right now is in phase one,   it began in 2021 and it was finished in 2024.  And it was about creating housing capacity   along the corridors, right? And we looked  at the city of Columbus has 40 area plans,   40 different area plans. And in those 40 area  plans, we have 200 distinct land use categories.   So we have a whole bunch. And what those area  plans said was put density on the corridors. These   area plans range from 1993 to 2018. And they said  the only common thread they had was densify the   corridors. Put units on the corridors. So in phase  one, we looked at that policy basis and we said,   "Okay, we can put units on the corridors."  And in order to enact a resoning, you have   to have a policy basis that allows you to enact  that resoning. That's part of Ohio state law,  

right? So we had a policy basis that said put  density on the corridors and they went ahead   and they looked at every area in the area plans on  the 40 different maps. There's 40 different maps   that guide development in Columbus and they said  what areas say mixed juice land use recommendation   and then they put a border around it and they  said that's phase one of zone in. And that's   how they did phase one. It was harder than that.  they, you know, there were some parcels here and   there that they had to talk about, but that was  the policy basis and that's why phase one was just   the corridors and that's why they decided to do  a phased in approach. Okay. Um, and so what we're   trying to do here is move forward with the zone in  project. Right. We still want to reszone the rest   of the city. Does anybody know what percentage  of the city was phase one? That's right. Ah,   that's M. So phase one that's so phase one was 4%.  Just 4%. So we have a lot of work left to do. And   then my predecessor re retired and then they gave  me the the job of figuring out what to do with the   rest of the city. So that's the background where  we are right now. What we want to do is phase   two. We anticipate to have zoning adopted by 2026  and then we have hope to have the whole city uh   adopted by 2027. So this was phase one equitable  access. If you look at this map, you can see it   was just on the corridors that had a mixeduse  land use recommendation in policy, not in code,   a mixeduse policy recommendation from those 40  area plans and we use that to create mixeduse   districts. So very successful, huge success.  My predecessor really built the foundation for   all the work we're doing and there was no major  opposition. So 140 mi of corridors and this is   where we think we're going to get the biggest bang  for our buck on units. All right. So they estimate  

about 88,000 units. So small geographic area, big  return. And as we keep doing the zoning process,   that's going to become inverted. The last phase  which will be the neighborhoods will be a huge   area but probably less units. And this is what we  got. We got six mixeduse zoning districts of uh   range of intensity from urban core all the way to  urban general. Right? So you can go up a limited   height. No, I'm sorry. Urban core up to 16 stories  and urban general four stories major m most   height. So as I said, we had a policy basis for  phase one. We lack a policy basis for phase two.   We don't have that nice neat mixed juice on the  corridors. The city of Columbus has never had a   comprehensive land use plan. We have never looked  at the whole city and created a land use policy of   where we want development to occur. And so before  we can move forward with the resoning, we have   to continue to create a policy basis. Phase one  didn't have to do that. They already had kind of a   policy basis. But as you can see, we have 40 area  plans. Like I said, our our newest is from 2018,   seven years old, which is pretty old for a land  use policy. And our oldest is 31 years old, 1994.   And the pre reason for that is this the 1993  comprehensive plan. They set out this framework.   They said work with your neighborhoods to create  neighborhood plans for each one. In theory that's   really nice. You get that you get that smallcale  engagement. You get to have a deep conversation   with them every so odd years. The problem with  that is logistically for a planning division like   the city of Columbus, uploading updating an area  plan is about two-year process. We have 40 area   plans. You do the math. That's why some of these  are 31 years old. And so the negative is we have   area plans that are pretty modern. Like a good  one is Clinton build robust design guidelines,  

right? Updated land use policy, although it's  getting pretty old now. You have other ones   that are from 1993. planning and the way the city  thought they wanted to develop and grow was way   different in 1993. The way our architects were  designing things were quite different in 1993   than they are now. And so we have these  dated plans that don't address what the   community's aspirations are today. Right? And  when a variance or a resoning comes through,   Lintenville has very robust design guidelines  that they can lean on to get a better project to   negotiate. While as other areas of the city, they  don't. they just don't have those guidelines. So,   it's an inequitable process and it's inefficient.  Right? So, what we're trying to do is create a   comprehensive growth strategy that pri prioritizes  equitable access to housing, economic opportunity,   and neighborhood vitality for Columbus residents.  We for the first time ever, we want to create one   holistic land use plan for the city of Columbus.  So, for the first time ever, you'll look at one   map and you'll be able to see where does the city  prioritize industrial development, where does the   city prioritize mixed use development, where will  the city uh support office, right? And it'll be   accessible, it'll be easy to understand, it'll be  comprehensible. You won't have to look at 40 area   plans and 200 different land use categories.  So what we're trying to do is how many of you   are familiar with C2P2? It doesn't apply to  downtown so it wouldn't have much C2P2 are   the Columbus citywide planning policies CCPP C2P2  right so um this was an attempt in 2018 to create   citywide land use uh policy design guidelines and  what they did is they created design guidelines  

and land use categories for the city but it  was by area commission commission had to opt   in to choose to do it right and about out of 21  well out of 40 area plans about 20 or so adopted   them. The problem with that is it didn't include a  comprehensive citywide map. We were still going to   go to each community and develop a map with each  of them and it just became an ownorous project   process. We still had the same problem. So what we  want to do is we want to do an amendment to C2P2   and we want to as I said we want to create this  will allow us to establish a citywide land use   plan that is the policy basis for the remaining  phases of zone in and we think that this can also   uh provide a policy basis that can guide capital  planning investment and budgeting. So if we have   one map, it's easy for DPS to look and say, where  do we need to do infrastructure improvements?   Where do we see more growth happening in  the city? Right now, we don't have that.   We just have all these plants. They can look at  industrial warehouse and say, okay, there's a   a greater demand for uh sewage capacity in these  areas because they need it's more water intensive,   right? So how can we start to think about the  city holistically for the first time? This is a   major step, right? The way that this plan works  is uh it's a document. It includes a vision for   growth. It includes includes guiding principles.  Uh three major guiding principles. Then we have   the Columbus land use plan. That's the newest  element. That would be this citywide map. Uh   and then you'll have land use policies that give  you guidance on what each of those categories   are. So if the map says mixed use 3, the land use  policy sees mixeduse 3 is the most intense area of   development in the city. it is the most supportive  of intense buildings etc. And then design   guidelines as well just general design guidelines  for when people are coming through variances  

and resonings. So if you don't meet the design  guidelines of the code we have additional design   guidelines that can help us evaluate whether or  not it meets. So this is the map. This is the   map that we currently have. We have been working  with the community uh tirelessly since probably   going back to May on this map. We have engaged  the community. We've done a lot of workshops,   a lot of community engagement. We've had an online  survey. And what you'll see there is a five a five   color map. Three colors. Um kind of the orange,  the red, and the very light pinkish color. Not   that darker pink that you see in Pretty Strong,  but very light pink color. Those are the mixed   juice districts. And they go from mixed juice  one which is four stories, mixed juice 2 which   is seven stories and mixed juice three which is  unlimited height. Okay. Uh you also see that blue   color is industrial and warehouse. And that darker  I don't know I'm bad with colors. Pink that darker   pink color that you see kind of where Ohio State  is. That's uh business and institutional campus.   That's kind of like your universities offices etc.  This map was informed greatly by input from the   community and we can talk more about that if you  have questions. So how did we get there? So let me   just explain the process right now. So originally  the in June the city council adopted that map on   the left a focus area map which was a resolution  of support. Okay. And what that map is uh that map   was the focus area. It just said these areas are  under consideration. Then we had an initial land   use map which had three colors on it. Business and  institutional campus, mixed juice, industrial and   warehouse. And now we're at that third map, the  land use plan. So Belus, if you hit the clicker   real quick. Oh yeah. So here you can see this  is what that map looked like. That first map,   blue just said this is what's under consideration.  This isn't what's under consideration.  

The second map uh showed us the green was mixed  use, the blue was industrial warehouse and the   yellow was business and institutional campus. And  what we did there, this is what the survey and   this is what we engaged the community on. We said  okay do you support mixed use in this area and if   it's so at what intensity up to four stories up  to 10 stories or higher? Then we did mixed juice.   Um we did business and institutional campus what  height and intensity and then industrial warehouse   heavier light industrial. That led to the land  use plan map which is where we are now. We then   took that mixed use and we broke it up into three  categories. Mixed use one, two, and three based   off of people's heights preferences. Industrial  warehouse and business and institutional campus   stay the same. That's where we are right now. With  adoption of the citywide land uh growth strategy,   the Columbus growth strategy, we then hope  to use these this policy foundation to create   zoning districts and that will be code. Policy is  more aspirational. Code is more you know you have   to follow the guidelines. So for example, what  we have is mixed use 2. We have a couple mixed   use districts created in the first phase that  I showed earlier. We will then figure out is   that uh community activity center which is more  suburban or urban center which is more urban.   Uh we'll determine if business and institutional  campus is one or two based off intensity. So this   is an ongoing process. So where I am right now  with with this group here is I'm talking about   the land use plan, but it'll set the zoning uh  the foundation for the zoning. So just to let   you know, we had 3,200 online survey responses.  We had workshops. We had over 26 pop-up events   where we interacted with 278 individuals where we  explained the process to them. We had stakeholder   meetings with key partners institutions. We've  done over 100 presentations at area commissions.  

We did an openhouse downtown. You walked by  our information station down here with all   the boards. That was where people could reserve  one hour to talk to a planner about any of their   concerns. We've had a 24-day public comment  period. We've had newsletters, deliveries,   um, and overall our public input has been largely  supportive with between 65 and 75% support. So,   largely supportive. We feel like we're on the  right track. This is downtown. And the reason I'm   here to talk to you today is because as we've been  doing this process, we weren't going to change the   downtown zoning because it's great. You guys do  a great job and you can do unlimited heights,   lots of flexibility. We're good. Uh, but people  kept saying, "What about downtown? You're doing   a comprehensive land use plan citywide. you're  not going to have downtown. And we just had this   big doughut empty in the middle. Uh and so we  thought, well, maybe we should assign a land   use classification. And of course, if we're going  to do a land use classification, it's going to be   the most intense one, which is mixed use 3, right?  Mixed use 3 is the most intense. This gives you a   definition of mixed use 3. A plus stories. Um you  know, it includes a broad range of building types.   Um, my eyes aren't that good anymore, but  anyways, it's basically very supportive of   all kinds of uses, a mix of uses, offices, uh,  institutional, residential, etc. Okay. And what   I'm here for is a request to have the downtown  commission uh, create a recommendation of adoption   uh, for city council to adopt Mixed Juice  3 downtown. Now, this will have no effect   on the downtown zoning. We're not changing the  downtown district. Uh, this will have no effect   on the purview of the downtown commission. We  will not be changing the design guidelines that   you use to review your proposals and we have  no plans to change the zoning. What it does  

is it just creates a land use policy on the map,  right? at its most, you know, um, aspirational,   it creates a land use policy for downtown that  at least in the future we have a policy basis   if we ever determine that we want to update the  zoning code or your group here decides to up that   we would like to make changes to the zoning code.  At its most nuts and bolts, it's a color on a map   that really has no effect on the work the good  work that you guys are doing here, right? Um and   so our plan is with uh support from this group,  our plan is we have a uh a public hearing tomorrow   to discuss the whole citywide growth strategy in  council. Um we'll be submitting legislation to   council on the 2nd. We'll go for first reading on  the 8th, second reading on the 15th, and we hope   to get this approved. It's a big step forward  for planning in the city of Columbus. uh as I   said for all those reasons and more importantly  it allows us to continue the work of updating   our city's outdated zoning code. Um so with that  I'm just seeking that uh vote of a recommendation   of support to adopt mixuse 3 and I'm open to any  questions. Thank you questions. What color are we   voting for? Uh it'll be that a nice powerful  red. Yes. Well flash too then. No, no, no. Hold on. I'm sorry. I have a question about  the design guidelines. So, the ones that are   described in the um the CGS document. Yes. That  that is that sort of like a baseline for different   um districts. And so, for instance, like  you spoke about our we have one in place   that we would still be using. Yeah. So,  let's just take Clintonville for example.   you said they have pretty robust um guidelines. So  would um communities that have that in place go to  

those that are already in place for them? Yeah.  So early on we were trying to determine do we get   rid of the existing area plans or do we keep them  and we talked to the community and lots of them   want to keep their existing area plans. Some of  them don't care but some of want. So we decided   was okay we'll allow the existing area plans to  remain in place. the design guidelines from the   Columbus growth strategy will work in tandem with  them in situations where the neighborhood plans,   the area plans can provide support to the  Columbus growth strategy. Columbus grow   strategy design guidelines are very baseline. You  know, like parking should be to the rear of the   structure. Um, you know, garages should ideally  face an alley. Kind of general things like that.   If a plan, for example, like the Clintonville  plan says garages should be architecturally   compatible with the main building and have a rich  a roof pitch of etc. Well, then in that case,   when we're doing our reviews and when the area  commissions are doing their reviews, they can   reference both. The Columbus grow strategy says  parking garages should be in the rear of the   structure and face an alley when appropriate.  and the Clintonville area plan requesting that the proposals garage be moved to the back of  the building and be architecturally compatible. If   they contradict each other, if say the Columbus  grow strategy says garages should be to the rear   of the structure and an older plan says garages  should be front-facing and have a driveway to the   thing. when they contradict each other, then the  Columbus growth strategy will take precedent. The   design guidelines in the Columbus growth strategy,  just like all of the design guidelines in our area   code right now, are for when people want to vary  from the code, right? So, say someone wants to   do a resoning or they want to do a variance. We  use those design guidelines to say, okay, you're  

not following the code, you want a resoning.  Let's see if we can support that resoning.   And then we looked at our land use map and we'll  see okay it's an appropriate land use. We can   support it and then we'll say okay let's look at  what this design of this building is. You don't   want to have a 4ft set back from your property  line which is what code says you have to do. So   what does our design guidelines say? Well it might  say that you know building should be more or less   have you know the side of the building might be  in should be in line and so then we can rely on   that to say okay. So that's how this works. There  are almost no resonings or variances downtown. I   think there's been one. Yeah, the the parking lot  over here in like 20 years. So for downtown, your   guidelines are so flexible and there's so little  need for variances or resonings that it really   has very little practical implication. However,  if for example this parking lot came through and   they the design guidelines say, you know, you  should have screening around the side of that,   we could use that in our review to council. Yeah.  And and basically our guidelines the way we have   them today are very compatible with what you've  your new set of guidelines really are they not?   Absolutely. I mean it's it's more what we're  trying to do here is create more flexibility   in uses. Um so they're asking for us to make a  recommendation to council here. Um, I'd like to   see if there are any more questions and then I  I frankly we reviewed this with Lewis and Belus   earlier. Um, Bob and Jana and I and I I don't see  any problem with it. I think what it does is help   these folks come up with some consistency here in  the sense that the entire city then falls under   this um this zoning plan here and we're where we  want to be. We're the uh what do we call this the   mixeduse three category. Correct. Anyway, so I  and there's no I don't I don't think and we asked   this question a couple times. There is no conflict  with what we're doing right now. Is that correct?  

That's correct. I would tell you if there wasn't.  If there was, we'd want to resolve that before   doing this. There's really no And obviously Lewis  having been our staff person here before Belulkus   uh arrived is obviously totally and absolutely  familiar with downtown. So um any thoughts? Any   questions? Let's do questions. Anybody Tony or  anybody Jeff or Yeah, I'll make a motion that   we recommend What are we recommending? The uh land  use plan three for downtown. Correct. Is there Is   there a second? I'll second. Okay. I'm concerned  we're making this too easy for you here, Lewis.   That's good. Um any other questions or comments?  Question. Okay. So I you know you've been looking   at this very comprehensively and do you have any  advice for us or any insights you know and the   three goals you have are healthy and complete  communities guiding growth and sustainable   development and high quality design. Yes. So, do  you just have any insights for us as commissioners   or any takeaways that you feel um we should be  thinking about as as you've studied this and   things that you think are working well um downtown  or things that like you know we should just be   um thinking about? No, I mean we look at as we  look at the development and approve applications.   No, I mean I think um if anything we're kind  of moving more towards kind of what's downtown,   right? So downtown the original idea was let's  allow a lot of flexibility and uses but then the   downtown commission will make sure it looks  robust, it looks strong and architecturally   uh compatible. And so what we're trying to do  is you know in the 1950s and60s it was the idea   was uklidian zoning residential here, commercial  here, office here. What we're saying is that was   too strict. let's allow a mixing of uses, but  let's put in the code design guidelines that   are robust enough to make sure they don't that  they're compatible. So, that's what we're trying  

to do. I think that, you know, there's really  nothing I think that downtown commission needs   to change. You have unlimited height, you have  zero parking requirements, which is what we're   trying to do. Not unlimited height all over the  city, but uh allow greater height uh and remove   a lot of the parking restrictions in the city.  So, um, you know, as you're doing your reviews,   just as always, Belus will give you the proper,  uh, guiding guidelines and everything and just,   you know, continue to make the city walkable and  more vibrant. Yeah, mixed use. Very good. Any   other questions? Any comments? Anything from the  audience? Hearing none. All those in favor say I.   I. Those opposed, thank you very much. Very much.  Okay. Thank you. Miss working here. Uh, Felus.   Yes. You can continue to get education credits  for this. I think so. That's right. Approved.   Yeah. All right. So, the next applica or the  first application um will be tabled applications   from last month. So, we're starting with 164 North  Grant Avenue and then also 149 Cleveland Avenue,   opportunity point one and two. Um, and if I may,  I we could just kind of bundle them together   and talk about them at once. Is that okay with  everybody? Yes. Okay, good. Um, oh, let me go. Okay, here we go. Yeah. Um, so, uh, 164 North  Grant Avenue is located at the southeast corner   of East Spring Street and North Grant Avenue,  just west of Columbus State Community College.   This site consists of three parcels and  currently holds a surface parking lot and   one-story commercial warehouse building built in  1949. The applicant is seeking commission approval   to demolish the existing building and construct a  fivestory 82 unit affordable housing development.  

This site will also include six surface parking  spaces, a playground, a picnic area, building   materials including fiber cement sighting,  fiber cement panels, vinyl windows, and brick   veneer. And the graphics shown are representative  placeholders and will be part of a separate future   application. The other site which I'll also read  about um this is 149 Cleveland Avenue and this   is located at the northwest corner of East Long  Street and Cleveland Avenue just west of Columbus   State Community College. This site consists of six  parcels and holds a commercial structure built in   1988 and a residential structure built in 1900.  The applicant is seeking commission approval to   demolish the existing buildings and construct  a five-story 104 unit housing uh development   and that will have 20 student units and 84  affordable units with five surface parking spaces,   a playground and a picnic area. Building materials  also include fiber cement sighting, fiber cement   panels, and brick veneer. And the graphics shown  in this one are also representative placeholders   and will be part of a separate future application.  Um, for both of these applications, the applicant   was last before the commission for a conceptual  review in October 2025, where the commission   recommended bringing additional drawings for  a complete application and for the drawings to   be consistent with one another. Commissioners  also recommended leaving sections of the brick   that go up to three stories, to explore decorative  paving treatments for the interior parking areas,   and to include good screening of the dumpster and  ground mechanicals. They're also supportive of the   use of the spicy mustard color as it brings warmth  and color um to the building facades. In response   for both applications, um the applicant included  additional drawings and material details in their   application package, maintained the threetory  sections of exterior brick, updated the refues  

and ground mechanical enclosures to brick with  vinyl gates, and included a mix of sight paving   treatments. And the submitted materials for both  applications include a site plan, context images,   land survey, demolition plan, site plan, utility  plan, landscape plan, and details, site details,   lighting details, material details, elevations,  floor plans, wall sections, exterior details,   renderings, a HABs light report for the Circa  1900 structure, and a state historic preservation   office or SHIPO letter. Um, I'll let the applicant  go through their materials and the package,   um, since it's quite robust. Uh, but after review,  the downtown district code requires a certificate   of appropriateness for demolitions and that  a replacement use be reviewed and approved   by the downtown commission. Downtown design  guidelines state that the commission will   need to consider if the demolition will allow for  new development in which the commission's opinion   is of greater significance to the character  of the surrounding area. And the guidelines   recommend that new construction be influenced by  the pattern of nearby contributing buildings using   high quality durable materials. And they also  call for uh for complimentary site landscaping,   that surface parking be located to the rear  of the primary structure with alley access and   that bike parking be included. Both proposals are  consistent with these downtown design guidelines   and the commission will need to consider if the  demolitions will allow for new development in   which uh in the commission's opinion is of greater  significance to the character of surrounding area   and that applies for both applications. Thank you.  Very good. Could the applicants come up please? Good morning. Could you uh grab another chair if  you'd like to be three of you? Okay. Um well then   uh if anybody wants to testify, would you raise  your right hands? Do you swear and affirm that  

the testimony you're about to give is the truth,  the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? If so,   say I do. I do. Thanks very much. Could you  identify yourselves for the record then,   please? Jonathan McKay with W Cooper Companies.  And then this is Cynthia Hayes architect. Then   we've design group. Sorry. And then  we've also got with us Mark Shriber,   the landscape architect. And then  Zach Woodruff with Columbus State   Community College and Columbus State  Community Partners. Okay. And one more. Great. Okay. Thank you very much. Um why don't  we take a look at where we are and we met with   you was it last month I guess and um let's kind  of spend some time focusing on what maybe the   changes are from what you had last time please go  ahead thanks Sure. So in our package what we've   done here is shown some different uh viewpoints  down the different viewpoints of the building.   Can you go specifically to the uh the renderings  focus? I think that'll be the most helpful here. God, that's better. Oh my god. Yeah. So, starting  on the the first page here, uh, a couple things   that we've done based on the feedback from the  commission here is that we've taken the brick up.   It's a little bit hard to see here, but there was  uh less brick that was on the third floor. We've   taken it up at multiple points at the building. Uh  in addition to the uh alley there that's currently   Kelly alley that's going to be transferred as part  of the development, we've given some different   uh paving techniques. So we've got some asphalt  going down the alley, but now there's concrete now   in terms of the parking. Can you go to the next uh  slide, please? Yeah. And then I believe Cynthia,   do you want to talk about the dumpster at all  in terms of the uh Yeah. So, uh, we do have, um,   brick going up to six foot high with, um, cast  concrete cap, um, around all the enclosures.  

That's the generator, the transformers, and  the trash enclosure. Um, and then the gates,   uh, will match the gray, uh, so they'll kind  of disappear. And then, um, on this side,   we don't have, uh, enough planting space, but for  the most part, we put planting around, uh, or Mark   put planting around as much as possible. And then  can you go specifically to uh the photo to the   neighbor? I want to make sure that the commission  sees the distance between and I believe it I   believe it's 10 feet. Is that correct? Yes. We  paid uh special attention to make sure there was   a buffer between the existing building and then  where the development will be and show us that   picture if you can. Is that two or three back?  I believe there's two of them. There's one from   the street right there and then there's one from  the other side as well. Yeah, I think that's the   better one that you can tell. So, so the adjacent  property at the point of the connection there   of the contiguous lot line is a parking lot. Is  that what I'm seeing? Yeah. Go to the other one. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's obviously more than  10 ft. So, your property line is where it's   landscaped. Is that correct? that and  is there an empty space then piece of   building behind it is as well. Oh, I see the  one. Okay, fine. But at the where it touches   um what is that? Grand Avenue, there's a parking  area there, right? Is that correct? Yeah. Okay.   Okay. Other anything else you want to show us  on any How about landscaping? You had mentioned   landscaping. Yeah. Do you want to go back to  the There's a good photo that includes all   the different landscaping that we're going  to be including. And we have Mark uh Shyber   here as well in case there any In other  words, what I just want to understand is   what kind of how how it's different than  what you brought into us um a month ago.

Can we just Can we pause there just for one  second? Go back. Yeah. Sorry. Um there's a   lag. Yeah. I I just want to understand that we  understand the scope of the landscape. So, are you   rellandscaping the the parking lot? There we go.  Hold that focus. Thank you. No, no, we are not.   No, no existing. Yeah, that came up last time.  Okay. I just Yeah. So, it's all it's all labeled   like it's fine. It's not a big deal, but it's  labeled like it's new material. It's it's not. So,   the right hand side of Cleveland Avenue that we're  looking at is existing. Okay. And not will not be   changed. Okay. You're not That's not part of your  program. Okay. Good. One more here and then Okay. Are there questions, comments from  anybody? Yeah, I have one. Yep. Tony. Um,   so the the alley that between Spring and Long  goes southbound, right? Yes. Okay. And so we   have the dumpster entryways that seem to  be oriented the wrong way if you're going   to have a a truck come truck get up to it.  Yeah. And swing around, grab the, you know,   grab the dumpster stuff, pour it in, and then  they're going to have to do a a pretty incredible   movement to back out of it to get back to the  alley. Like, why did you orient it that way?   I think the civil engineer is studying that  and we will change it so that the dumpsters   u will be Yeah. because it's is or yeah it's like  completely not right from your standpoint you're   going to want something that works. Now those guys  those dumpster guys are magicians. Okay operate  

but still I think the the point is how does the  truckload right Tony? That's what you're getting   at. So is it a front load, a back load or a side  load? U probably a front load and um we'll have   the arrows change graphically after it's a front  lo. So if it's a front load um it probably needs   an adjustment, right? Yep. And I think maybe Tony  is it okay if we just let them reverse the angle   of this without having to come back. Right. That's  pretty simple. But I think it changes the I think   it changes the orientation of the plant material  and the I think it changes a lot as it relates to   the site plan. Yeah. But does it change the spirit  of it if it's sort of just orienting like rotating   90 degrees? I don't know. Yeah. May I address  that? The spacing is the same, Tony. When that   flips around, planting materials will flip in the  same space. It's very limited. So the whole idea   is to screen those at least create a small inner  open space between the building and the dumpster.   So, it's merely a a directional switch from what  it a catch show there. Yeah. I feel like in my   mind when you're coming for an approval, I mean,  it should be oriented the right way, right? I   mean, that seems like a should go the other way.  I mean, that's a basic this is a that's basic. Well, I would say that if we get to the point  where we want to approve this, what I would   suggest if that's an impediment to somebody to  say yes, we would ask you to we could talk about   approving this and ask you to come back and show  us how you're going to handle dumpsters if that   would be acceptable to you. So, um are there other  questions then? Other comments? Trudy? No. Sonia?  

Okay, Jana. Yeah, I had um two small things. So,  I appreciate that you looked at the paving and now   you're using the concrete and can you describe  for the concrete what that looks like? Is that   just the same type of concrete you would see  on a standard sidewalk or are you thinking of   a special finish with a tint? I I didn't really  see that described in the package. Um it it would   be a standard uh white color uh that's same as  a sidewalk. Um and um most of it is accessible   parking. So there'll be of course the markings  for um noting that those are accessible spaces.   Uh and then we just wanted to reduce the amount  of asphalt. And so that was the the big effort   there was to reduce it to the 13 14 ft that we  needed for the island. Okay. Um, and then the   other question is you have I think two areas or at  least one we see on the site plan there a little   bit to the north where you have the um mechanical  equipment enclosed and I'm wondering if you have   any concerns about you know residents that look  down onto the site if they will see that a lot   if there's a way I don't know when you work with  the equipment company to have it painted a certain   color just something to camouflage it a little  bit or if typically this equipment might be able   to have some roofing over it. Like I'm really not  quite sure what the options would be, but maybe   just consider how that might be handled because  that looks like a large enclosure and it will   be really visible from the from the apartments.  Thank you for that comment. Um there may be a way   um the generator has an enclosure that goes over  it and we can look into see if there's options   there for the the two generators, one for each  property. Um the uh transformers are the normal  

green that uh a Columbus Power will provide. Uh  and then the the um planting around it, you know,   as it matures, you know, we do have plantings  closer to the building that will maybe help to   to screen those views. Okay. And then my last a  six foot brick wall is a great improvement. Great.   Then my last question is on the site are you  using any of the green green techniques like   green building techniques or green techniques for  um you know various materials silver buildings   and really great that's our standard.  Okay. Any other questions, comments, anything from the audience?  Would you like to come up,   please? And would you if you'd go to the podium and would you identify yourself, please? My  name is Debbie Richards and I am one of the   owners of the historic property adjacent  to this development. Okay. Can you speak   into the microphone, please, so that we can hear  you? Is this better? That's better. Thanks. And   would you raise your right hand? Do you swear and  affirm that the testimony you're about to give is   the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the  truth? If so, say I do. I do. Thank you. Uh I had   submitted an email. I don't know if you Hey, can  you speak up? I'm sorry. I am having a hard time.   I have submitted an email uh yesterday that uh  Belkus told me she would share with all of you. I   don't know if you had time to read that, but um my  concern is when I first moved into the property,   uh at some point Columbus State had a 10-year  vision map that they had put online that showed   my home gone and a pavilion with picnic tables.  And I had reached out to Columbus State to ask   uh why I was gone. And I believe it  was Terry Garrett at the time who was   retired who met with me, toured my home, and  said to me, "Debbie, I want to assure you,  

we're not the 800 pound gorilla in your backyard  that's going to show up at your front door with a   bulldozer." And yet here we are. The 800lb gorilla  is showing up at my garage with a bulldozer. Uh,   this is a photo of the roof of my garage, that  singlestory portion of my home and the wall that   Columbus State is going to demolish. And they are  asking you for approval to tear down a building   that is 3 in away from my home. My husband, who  is imuninompromised and works from home, has his   office right there. A stray cinder block going  through the roof could actually kill my husband.   I have valid concerns about the demolition and uh  I invited Zach to meet with me and tour my home   after the last meeting and he graciously accepted  and came and toured my home and assured me that   he was not just paying lip service but that was  here to have a meaningful goodfaith dialogue with   me. And so I sent an email with my concerns  per his request to Columbus State and have   not yet received a response. And so I would ask  respectfully that the commission defer approving   any demolition or anything until Columbus State  and I have an opportunity to discuss and address   my concerns and negotiate a solution that's a win  for both parties. I'm sure Columbus State doesn't   want to kill my husband. I'm sure Columbus State  doesn't want to collapse part of my residence.   I'm sure Columbus State doesn't want to destroy my  collection of very fragile um valuable glassear.   I'm sure Columbus State doesn't want anything  bad to happen. But unanticipated events happen   during construction all the time. And my example  was the horror at Kelton House. When I saw that,   I said, "Oh my god, that could be my house."  the water lines, the sewer lines, the gas lines,  

everything in this part of downtown is ancient  and decrepit. What if the water What if I have   no water? What if I have no gas? What if I  have no electricity for a day, for a week,   for a month? What how can we negotiate an  emergency solution before the problem happens   and hopefully never have to use it? It's better  to be an ounce of prevention is worth a pound   of cure. And so I outlined specifically what  my concerns were. I don't know if you got to   read that if you want me to review them,  but I can tell you that essentially um here's a photo of the destruction at Kelton House.  And I don't want to be the next one to have this   issue. This was from some kind of gas leaks  causing a fire and explosion at Kelton House,   which is just down the block, uh, because there  was some work going on. And when Columbus State   was drilling core samples on August 18th of  2025, my entire building was shaking. Uh,   my glassear was clinging and jingling. I was like,  "Oh my god, is this an earthquake?" I went outside   to see what was happening and it was the result  of just small core samples being drilled across   the alley in uh where opportunity point phase 2  would be located. So that became a concern for me.   Additionally, I'd like to discuss the fire rating  of the south facade because it is my belief as a   licensed realtor that the best and highest use of  my property is future development going upward,   preserving the historic facade,  as others have done in Columbus,   which I think is a fantastic way to respect  history and still allow new development.  

Uh these are there are two others that I have  in the short north and uh Edwards companies did   it on Broad Street and I don't want to be in a  position where I can't sell to someone in the   future who wants to develop upward because of the  lack of fire rating that Columbus State will have   on their south facade. So there are a lot of  issues that I feel Columbus State and I need   to sit down and talk about and I can make myself  available any time. And as I did I I reached out   and I am waiting patiently for a response but I  ask that you not approve anything until we can   have that conversation. We have a threeminut  limit on speakers. Um that's my limit. Okay,   great. Well, thank you. Yeah, a little bit but  that's fine. No problem about that. You know,   none of you are ever in the position of having  your neighbor try to tear down their building,   which is three inches away from you, without  telling you how they're going to protect you.   Okay. Well, and I I we are a design review um  entity here. Um so, we're going to pretty much   confine oursel to that. I if you folks want  to work out things with the neighbors, that's   wonderful. Um any other questions or comments?  Anything from the anybody else in the audience?   thoughts. I just comment that whatever the fire  rating issue that's covered by the building code.   Building code. Absolutely. But what they do will  meet the code. Yeah. But based on what's currently   existed, not if my building chooses the Well, but  you if you put a building up, you're going to be   subject to the building codes at that moment, too.  And you're going to also have to do construction.   and you know all of or you or whoever does that  and they will all have to deal with a set of of   conditions. You know the we have lots of buildings  downtown that are on the lot line. I just had one  

question about what you said. You said there was  a portion of your building or something on your   property that was being demolished and I'm not  quite sure what that is. Let me just record. side   had some talking about the wall of the adjacent  building that's on Columbus State properties   very close to in there 10 foot separation.  No, in the new build in the new design. Yes,   the existing building. I see it right here.  Yes. Oh, that white building on the left goes   up against her garage. This wall here. Can we  clarify one issue here? Is there any demolition   being done on your property on your property?  Just I just want to get the record straight. No.   No. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So, you know, if  they damage her building, that's between them. So,   yeah. Okay. Got a quick contract. Any other  questions or comments? Pleasure of the group then,   please. Motion to approve. There's a motion to  approve. Is there a second? Okay, the motion is   on the floor then. I'm going to go right back  again. Any questions, comments? Do we want to   deal with the uh dumpster issue? Do we want to  deal with the dumpster issue? Um Tony wants do   you want him to come back on that and show us  how they do it? And do we want to approve it   with that as a carveout? Approve that with a carve  out. Okay. Are you willing to modify that motion   then? Was that yours, Jeff? Yeah. Carve out for  staff approval. Yeah, let's Yeah. And if if you   have any questions about the general how it lays  out, we can look at it. Motion to approve with a   um uh staff approval on the final orientation  of the dumpsters based on trash uh collection  

and whatnot. An alley orientation. Yeah. Okay.  And and then the landscaping would be adjusted   to accommodate whatever. That's right. Does that  work for you? Works for me. Great. Okay. So, and   is there a I guess there's a say that second is  okay with that, Sonia. Okay. Any other questions,   comments? I appreciate the design changes that  you made uh in response to our comments. It's It's   better. It just feels better. Will you certify  the building as lead silver or will you uh That's   fantastic. Thank you. I had just one also on that.  Um I see you changed the window to black from the   white and I think that's a good choice. One other  change is that we went from vinyl to fiberglass.   Yeah. I'm sorry. Could you speak up again?  The thing we did was we went from vinyl from   the first um to fiberglass. That's better, too.  Yes. Better. So open. Okay. Well, we appreciate   you're doing some of these items. I think they're  important. And um I'm going to ask for a vote.   All those in favor say I. I. I. Those opposed.  No, please. Uh okay, that motion carries. Did we   approve both then? So that's opportunity point  one. Would you Well, I thought we were viewing   them as a package. Is that Well, since that motion  has the condition on it, do you want that same to   Does that apply to both of them? Oh, it's a common  Isn't that a common kind of alleyway? And yeah,   the alley is um however how would you like us to  do it so it works for you? A separate motion and   a and um for for the other project for the  next I'll make a second a motion. Okay. And   is there a second motion with the same got a lot  of emotions but the same with the same condition   then right for dumpster. Okay. So I have a motion  from Mr. Pongus. That's right. Okay. questions,  

comments. Jana, the HABs report for the building  that is already um we do have that and that is a   part of the submitted application package. What  didn't come to us, did it? Yes, it's a part of   the um package in this PDF and there was also a  shipo letter, no impact. I saw the ship letter.   Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yes. Go ahead. Just one more  thing. I know this isn't, you know, what we do,   but just in terms of that um um lady's concern,  do you feel that that's something you can talk to   her and work out or director who would be somebody  that she could talk to and understand more about   you the process? Yeah, we've we've uh currently  met uh it was last Friday and are reviewing her   uh concerns. So, we will be providing a formal  response to her and keeping her in the loop   and assuring her that it's going to be okay. Yes.  Okay. Thank you. Okay. Other questions, comments?   Anything from the audience? All those in favor of  approval of the We need a second. Oh, I thought   No, Sonia. Oh, okay. The second. Thank you for  that. Okay, that report is not in the submittal. Is it in No, there two submittals. You understand?  Is it in one of them and not the other as it was?   It's only on one of the properties. Okay. Oh. Oh,  no. Adobe, don't do this to me. Well, would you   just send it to me separately? Yeah, absolutely.  You need to uh Is that affect your Okay. So,   uh any other questions, comments? Hearing none.  All those in favor say I. I. Those opposed. Thank   you very much. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Thank  you. I'll make sure to send it to you, Bob. Okay.   Um why don't you just while you're doing it,  Fel send it to everybody. Okay. Thank you. Yeah.  

Then we've gotten it. Thanks so much. Next case,  please. Thank you. Thank you. Is that about the   dumpster? And I'm glad there'll be a way to look  at it again and make sure it works. Yeah. Yeah. That's actually just a single mistake. It looks like there's enough room that they can  switch. Yeah, they can flip it. But at the same   time, one point do you don't know how it's going  to infect things and there might be stuff. Wait,   when come then now then that guy has to do another  crazy turn to get out of itself. Okay. And then   once it's done, it's back on track here. So the  next case is for 322 Mount Vernon Avenue for   graphics. 322 Mount Vernon Avenue is located at  the corner of Mount Vernon Avenue and North 6th   Street and is home to Ballet Met. The applicant  is seeking commission approval to install 18   signs total as follows. Two non-illuminated stud  mounted PVC channel letter entrance wall signs   on the east and west elevations. two 77 by13  foot and 145 by 18 foot painted large format   mural style wall signs on the east and west  elevations and the east uh elevation wall sign   is the approvals for the location only and then  the final content is yet to be determined four 10t   x 12t preferated mesh marketing banner wall signs  on the north inner north and south elevations and   this approval is also for the location only and  final content is yet to be determined. And then   10 3ft by 8 foot outdoor fabric marketing banner  flag signs on the inner north, inner south, south,   and west elevations. Approval is for location only  and the final content is yet to be determined. The  

ballerina statue on page six is representative  only and is not included in this application.   And submitted materials include a site plan,  elevations, mockup photos, and sign details. So   if we look at their package here, um first we have  the site plan. So you can see the different signs   represented by these different colors and when the  and where they're located on the building facade.   So in that orange we have those large format mural  style type wall signs that are painted. Uh the   pink are just those traditional aluminum channel  letter signs uh above the main entrances. And then   the blue signs are a mix of the marketing banner  signs which are more like rectangular uh larger   scale and then a mix of those little like flag  style signs which will be mounted to the facade.   So here you can see one of the large format signs,  the ballet sign and then one of the channel letter   signs over the entrance on this elevation. Um next  these are examples of the marketing banner sign.   So, the applicant intends on switching these  out as new um performances approach to market   them and that's why the final contents yet to be  determined. Um down here you see another one of   those larger uh marketing banner style signs and  then these smaller ones, the perforated mesh signs   will be along the building facade. Um and there's  more examples of those here. Uh, and then here you   can see another uh larger style mural. Again, the  contents yet to be determined. Um, but it it looks   like it will be commercial copy. Um, say that  again. Looks like it'll work. It'll be commercial   copy. So, it's going to be painted um reflecting  what's going on inside. So, if they're ballerinas,   this is ballet. This is technically advertising  instead of art. So, does that mean it we can  

have a beer commercial on there? No. So if it  if it were um you know ice cream cones that's   art because it's not related to what's going  on inside of the building. But since these are   ballerinas and this is a ballet building then it's  considered commercial copy or advertising. So it's   just the difference between art versus and in the  application are they proposing to relate it to the   uh that's ridiculous building and zoning services  and how their graphics code is written. We are the   graphics code. We are. Yeah. Yes. Yes. There is a  graphics section, but in the definition section of   the overall zoning code, they have definitions  for what consists of art versus what consists   of graphics. And graphics is anything related to  what's going on to the inside the build the use of   the building. So, if you have an ice cream shop  and you want to paint a large ice cream cone on   the side of your wall, that is a sign because  you're advertising what's going on inside.   If you do valet and you paint a big ballerina  on the side, that's a sign. It is. So that's   how the code is. Then again, um, so this  large sign, it looks like if it, you know,   the contents yet to be determined, but we're  reviewing it as a sign versus art. Okay. Yeah,   that's why it's here is what I'm saying. If  it were a strictly art mural, it wouldn't   have to come before y'all. Um and then here's more  details on those uh channel letter signs that will   go above um those two entrances of the connector.  Okay, so that's the scope of that. And then after   the analysis uh states that buildings should not  be dominated by graphics and that signage should   not obscure significant architectural elements.  Further, they state that signs may be illuminated   and they also recommend wall signs that are  proportional to the building to which they are   attached and that banner signs that advertise  a development or product are discouraged. So,  

the proposal is semicconsistent with the  downtown design guidelines and staff encourages   the commission to discuss the number of banners  and how some banners cover areas of decorative   masonry. Thank you. Very good. Could the uh  applicants come up and join us, please? Could you identify yourselves for the  record, please? Uh, Andy English   Plant Studios and I'm uh the applicant  on the application. Okay. Ed Raldi with   Hanland Raldi Construction representing  Ballet M. Great. Could you uh raise your   right hands? Do you swear and affirm that the  testimony you're about to give is the truth,   the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?  If so, say I do. I do. Thank you very much. Okay. Do you want to just I guess walk us through  this? We've has laid it out pretty well. Um so the   um if you guys haven't been over there um in  the past year, 18 months um they uh completed a   project called the infill project or uh you also  hear the name the connector. And um that added a   lot to this site. Um, if you guys uh knew the site  before, it was basically a brick alleyway uh with   service dock uh along North Sixth Street. Uh the  connector kind of added a whole new kind of twist   to the site in that it gave us um sort of a center  focus point, which was what it was designed to do.   um a place that they could hold events um and  just um you know connect those two buildings,   the warehouse to the north and then the sort of  the main uh area where they teach uh teach the bow   ballet. Um so what it did was it all of a sudden  started to energize North Sixth Street. And part  

of the project we put a courtyard that is both  ADA um uh ingress egress as well as a place for   you know in between classes or if they're holding  event that people can go outside and and utilize.   Um after the infill project was completed, uh we  started to look and say, "Wow, these facads really   got big and they really got bland." So we started  to look at how could we energize and just sort of   um draw attention to um uh the entrances, the  entrance points, uh especially that North Sixth   Street uh because uh people are starting to use  that as a drop off point. But if you've been down   North Sixth Street, it's a little bit intimidating  right now. So, we kind of looked at how do we   energize. Um the conditions on the street aren't  great. Um they're basically sidewalk over to   vertical building. So, that's the reason why we uh  sort of keyed in on uh doing bu building banners.   And then the other thing that um uh Ballet Met  wanted to do was there's a lot of times during   the year that they have people coming and going  as well as parents, that sort of thing, dropping   off and they just wanted the ability to advertise  future events, future um things that they're going   to be doing. And that's what the banners and the  reason why they're interchanging. A lot of the   signs that you'll see are going to be, especially  um this this one, they're sort of tucked behind.   Um they're not front and center on the right  of way. Uh I would say really the only one   on Mount Vernon Avenue. Um and actually uh sign  number four. Um that's on page two. Uh Belus. Um, yeah, the the one right there, the that was  actually an overhead garage that Hanland Raldi   turned into to make it look more consistent with  the facade. And we kind of looked at it and say,  

"Wow, that'd be a good place for the public  to know kind of what's going on um, you know,   with uh, what's everything set." Um, the mural  number 17 again just kind of energizing North   Sixth Street. it was an idea um final um  artwork or advertisement. I mean, if we put   ice cream cones in the ball arena's hands, maybe  we get over the the uh advertising what's in. But   um so that's really it. That's uh the the whole  goal is to energize, add a little more attention   to what Ballet Met is. They're a national uh Oh,  and then the last piece, sorry, uh 18 and 19.   uh Susan Gerlock Douglas. Um she is a she's been  a longtime supporter of Ballet Matt. Ballet Matt   wants to do recognize her. She probably isn't  crazy. So what we also did was did white and   Belus had um said it was aluminum channel.  A channel letters. They're actually PVC and   they're just going to be mounted, but we did white  on aluminum to not have them pop. We, you know,   it's sort of it's there, but we wanted to kind of  downplay the uh that so you could get her to say,   "Okay." Yeah. Basically, and those are not lit  then? No. Really? No, they're not. It looked   like internally lit. No, there are there are  um there are lights, but they shine down. Oh,   okay. Yeah. Um the big wall panel on the sixth  street there, is that intended? Is that a,   you know, a lot of this stuff is kind of fairly  um uh almost it could be temporary. I mean,   it's it's banners and stuff like that out in  front. Um I suppose you're not going to change   them necessarily, but over time they're going  to want need to be changed and or freshened or   whatever. Is that a semi-permanent thing that  you see there? I mean, be painted. Oh, and is  

the idea that it has it's not an advertising panel  then, right? No, it was just it was more about I I   would term it more art than it would and again  if it helps the commission. We just wanted to   identify it as a place to but again the final is  something that we could work with staff you guys   on when they get to it. We wanted to make sure  it was part of the package so you understood the   overall. I I had um a couple of thoughts take a  saying. So when you look at this um picture here   on the left and the right, it looks also on your  plan. It looks like you have a lot of banners on   the right on the right um photograph. Yeah. To the  north of what's now the connector. And that looks   like that's probably an older photo. And I think  where you do have that northern warehouse, I don't   really know if you need the the if you're going  to have a nice painted mural, you might not need   those banners coming out, you know, the ones that  are, you know, sticking out and just have those   banners stop where you where you show it on the  old original building on the west facade. Yeah,   that I mean it's a good point. Um, and we weren't  really sure where that mural was going to go and   again you know, so if we wanted to move the mural  down to allow those banners, but it also was meant   the banners were because again, when you look down  North Sixth Street, you might not see the mural,   but you will see the banner down to kind of  emphasize that entrance off. That's a that's   a long space along there. It really is. My overall  reaction the first time I looked at it and I saw   all the little locations here, the first thing was  it's this is way too much. These guys are nuts.   And then as I looked at it though, these this  is there are big long spaces there. Yeah. And I   think it totally energizes this building. I mean,  you've got this concrete block chunk here in the  

back that basically is was a warehouse. Not not  anymore. It was a warehouse. Okay. This connector   is fantastic. That wall there on that's the east  side of the building that screams out for that   kind of signage. And I think it's frankly very  elegant. And I think it just energizes. If this   were an office building, you wouldn't want to put,  you know, Pepsi 50 signs of it around there, but   it's kind of an art facility. I think it's fun. I  think it's great. I mean, it's just energy and I   like the banners on there and the big wall graphic  on the west side there. So, at any rate, that's my   thought of it. And I think this the way Susan, you  know, the Susan Douglas connector thing there, I   think that looks I think that looks great. And by  the way, it is very subtle. I mean, um, so at any   rate, that's my thought on the thing. My two cents  were I think that's a good point now that I think   I guess it all depends on like what the mural is  going to be, the painted mural will be there. So I   can now I see the point that Steve and Bob are  making that even if you do have the the mural   the whole length that maybe the banners there as  well as you show are okay. So, I guess it might   just be looking at what what how much expanse  you're using and how many you think, but maybe   just adjusting it as you develop it more. Yeah.  And and the reason why we went three and three,   you know, it's a longer that was a longer stretch.  So, we thought that three on either side would be   better where on Mount Vernon we just did two and  two to just kind of have it. It's building much   more inviting than it is currently. Yeah. Yeah,  I agree. pass that building. You don't really   know unless you know it is, right? Yeah. And this  really is you that phrase vibrancy and it engages  

people to come in. Yeah. Um, when you think about  who your audience is and where they're coming   from, even think it's a a safety kind of thing  that people feel a little more a little safer.   they know what it is, where they're going, and the  signage is there, as well as the the mural because   I said right now that is an intimidating building  if you do not know what it is, especially with the   uh all the semitrs on the other side of the street  and the fence. It's not a friendly Yeah. Uh look,   no, this is a big turn it around. I think this  is a big big large plus. I think it's a small   investment for a huge return. I I couldn't agree  more. And you know, with respect to the respecting   the old building, that was a that was a a truck  door there. Yeah. You know, I mean, it's not as   though you're covering up or um you know, ancient  masonry that was there. Well, that's a great on   the front on the a great improvement to get rid  of the the garage door. Is is the Mount Vernon I   agree. Is the Mount Vernon frontage functionally  the is the back of the building or do do you do   is that still an entry? That's the front door.  That is the front. So, it's still functionally   an entry even with the connector. Yeah. What what  happens is the parking lot across the street some   people will park or drop off at the parking and  then the kids. It's more for the kids coming over.   you're still coming in like anytime I've gone  over the f and we always talk about like the   first time visitor going um usually your parking  in the parking lot in the back and coming in the   back side but they still do um the front entrance  is is more for staff and more for students and so   yeah thank you for that and it it seems to me to  be the primary facade of the building right that  

being the most dominant street so so is the only  sign then for that Forget the banner for a second.   Is the sign for the facility just the canopy?  That's the only Is that well lit? I'm wondering   if you want to tweak the lighting on that a little  bit too. Canopy. Yeah. And that front door. So it   really I mean I I got to admit I haven't been  by there particularly at night for a Well,   the the other part that we were going to put as  part of this application um that we removed it   just because there was it was just too too much  for us too much for us to handle at one time. Is   that so there's a flag pole that sits at the peak  and it is a I mean you could put a giant flag. So   one of the ideas that we had is can we make that  into a sculptural element that you know then we   could illuminate it and that would be art. Thank  you for doing that. Um, we had some ideas on it,   but we really never flushed them out. Um, that may  be something we come back and get your input on,   but um, yeah, it's still going nowhere, that flag  pole. And we just thought instead of putting flag,   you know, do we do something more sculptural  on it that really kind of plays the artistic   and the performance aspect of Dolly Matt? Well,  I don't know what the solution is, but I would   support being bold along this stretch of roadway.  Absolutely. don't want to beat up on this amazing   historic building, but I think Trudy made a lot of  great comments. Just the fact that it's activated,   energized with art makes the neighborhood feel  safe, vibrant, and cared for. And I think,   you know, letting folks know that this is a a  a art landmark downtown is really great. So,   anyway, I support all of it. It's awesome. Right.  Thank you. Yeah. I had one more comment about your   banners that are, you know, on the wall and  I'm wondering like I understand that they're  

temporary and they're going to be changed out,  but I'm wondering if let's say the one that's on   Mount Vernon and maybe the one that's on the west  facade where they seem a little bit more formal   in the sense that they're more of the like design  an important design element of the building, then   maybe there's a way to create I don't know like a  structure underneath it. So that they the way that   they might lay on the building or just how they're  adhered gives it even though they might be changed   out maybe gives it more of a sense of permanence  or deliberate or it's more of a um important   design element like a fra like doing it in a  frame type of like it's a it's a piece of artwork   hanging on the building is kind of what I'm just I  mean I wouldn't know the different techniques and   how I'm assuming that this is going to be mesh and  you're putting it on some walls that are not very   smooth and you're going to have, you know, it's  going to look very impermanent. But when I look   at that west facade entrance, there's an elegance  about it. You know, the sc the proposed sculpture   that you might have at one point and just that  it's this connector entrance that really has a   beautiful formality to it. And I'm just wondering  that that one there and then maybe the one on   Mount Vernon, maybe there's a way that even if  they're changed out that they do look more like   intentional, permanent um design element for the  for the building. It's just a thought because you   do have all the banners and especially if you  continue the banners down where you start your   mural, which I do now see that that is important  to activate the street that maybe this has just   the quality of the material or the way it's laying  has a little bit different feeling to it like a   different texture, a different feeling. Yeah.  So, it's just a thought because I think that it   is important identification for for the building  and almost is almost like a little art piece like  

the sculpture would be. Okay. I guess what I'd  say though is you've maintained the building   though the way it is. In other words, instead of  taking something and putting it over the building,   you're sticking out almost like a blade kind of  sign, which which I like that building. I mean,   I think it's a great building. Yeah. So, at any  rate, you you can chew on that a little bit.   Uh if you could go back to that mom in that  building, did you? Yeah. 15 years. I we leased   it for Oh, like the grind. Sorry. Yeah. I've had  that building about like this. Yeah. So, uh when   we filled in that garage door, the the picture  with the graphic on it. Um we filled that in   and framed it with ephus and and actually built a  frame around it. So that pan that fabric panel is   in a frame. Oh, it is. Okay. Perfect. I couldn't  see that. I couldn't really tell. So it's You're   saying it's within there. It will be sitting  within there. Yes. And Okay. I think that's   a good idea. And that thing replaces a what was a  garage door. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Other questions or   comments? Anything from anybody? Thoughts? I move  approval. Okay. And you And there's a motion to   approve. Is there a second? Thank you, Trudy. Um,  Belus, you made a comment about respecting the the   brick or something. And I guess what I all I would  say did you it was in your comments from the city.   Oh, yeah. Our um Yeah. I don't see that you're  tearing anything up and I assume you'll be real   careful about how screw holes and so on go into  the old bricks. Yeah. Okay. So, I think as far as   I'm concerned, we've said enough and they're aware  of that. Well, I I don't know that we need to   include that in any kind of a um motion. Any other  questions? comments. Anything from the audience?   Anything from this group? Anything else? All those  in favor say I. I. I. Okay, it's a motion carries.   It's approved as is. Great. Well, I I think  it's this is going to be fun. Be interesting.  

Great. Thank you all. Thanks for bringing it in.  Thank you so much. Okay, next case. All right,   so this next one is also a graphics application.  Um, and this is for an updated ad mural location.   So, this is for 150 North3rd Street, which  is located just south of the Third Street and   Spring Street intersection on the building's north  facade wall. The applicant is seeking commission   approval to update the orientation of the existing  ad mural going from a vertical oriented admiral,   which covers four windows to a horizontally  oriented one that covers two windows. And   this is to accommodate for a newly constructed  building like right next door. The admiral is   proposed to be 36 feet wide by 10 and 1/2 ft tall  and will be mounted using anchored brackets to sit   slightly in front of the existing downspout. The  applicant is also seeking commission approval for   a key bank commercial copy installation as shown  where the total text area would be 13.8%. Um,   and submitted materials include an overhead  site plan, historical site photo, renderings,   graphic details, and an engineering letter and  report. And to look at those materials real quick,   this is the location. Um, right here on this wall,  there's a newly constructed building here. And so   that's why they're updating the orientation.  Um, so this is what was bring that. Um,   and now there's a building a budding. So  they wanted to change the orientation to   uh what is highlighted in yellow. And so we  can see the new building here. And then the   proposed uh new orientation there. I think this is  another Oh, and then this is just the um proposed   commercial copy for the first iteration of the  ad mural. And then down here is just the engineer  

report talking about how it will be mounted to the  structure. Um and then this is just noting that   the text size will be no larger than 15% of the  total area. So it is consistent. Um, and typically   this is something I would easily staff approve,  but I just want to bring the whole context of   everything before you just so you understand um,  you know, the reorientation. Thank you. Would you   show us the two uh, picture panels there again for  a second? It looked because it looked to me like   when they get down to the actual banner they're  looking for, it looks bigger. That Okay. Now,   the one below that is that the same size? Um I  think the one below look Oh yeah this you know   what's happening um the the the proportions are  different. So if you look where the banner ends on   the left side okay and where if you look where the  banner ends on the bottom side those are a little   different on here. That's right. Let me see the  top one again then real quick. Watch that one. Oh   it's a lot deeper. Maybe it's Yeah. Yeah. is okay.  What I'll tell you what the applicant can tell us,   I'm sure. Um, good morning. You're the applicant,  I assume. Could you identify yourself for the   record? Tim Keaton with Outfront Media with Say  it again. Outfront Media. Great. And could you   raise your right hand? Do you swear and affirm the  testimony you're about to give is the truth, the   whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So say, "I  do." I do. Thank you. Join us and feel free to use   that microphone there. Okay. So tell us do those  are those the same size that we're seeing in the I   apologize for that. The our person who had turned  that in. You can clearly see there's a um uh the   fire escape that we can't go past right there if  you can zoom in on that or not. But the correct  

size is what's outlined by the our engineer. He  that was put on there. Uh that is the correct   dimensions right there. So when you when we see  it is cuz it says it's 10 foot six and that's   got to be more than 10 foot six on that building.  Yeah. Yeah. It's that's a floor and a half. That's   well that's what they scaled. That was correct.  Look at that. See that's above the window here.   Go back. Get us go back here. Okay. There we go.  See that just goes down to that little water table   line above the fourth floor. Whatever it is. Okay.  This is what you're asking for. Is that correct?   Correct. I mean that's ultimately what it will  look like. Yeah. So we can get that on the copy.   Let me zoom into that. Do you have the dimensions  on this? The sign that you want to put up then. Um   the size of the sign. Yes. That we do want to put  up is 10 and 1/2 ft. This one here by 36. Correct.   Okay. So the drawing where it was outlining it on  the building is probably over I think that drawing   is wrong. Demonstrating. I'm going to have to get  that. Yeah. Yeah. This is about the mounting. So,   but that makes sense because that would  be about one floor worth of of capacity,   right? So, how about the length of it then? That  looks long to me. Is that the same length as that   they had asked for in the request, you think? No,  I think it is because it goes from the the after   the first bay is there and how many 36 feet.  It goes up to the fire escape. Yeah. So, maybe   we're looking for something more like 10 feet by  36. Is that what correct? That is correct. Um,   okay. So, use that for in the building that  is the the first used as a second there's a   second bedroom and then there's a one um I think  a studio at the on the other window behind. So,  

what what are you covering? What room is it? That  would be a studio apartment and then a second   bedroom of a two-bedroom apartment. So, you're  covering two windows. There's two windows. There   were four windows that were covered. That banner  has some transparency to it. It does. It's a vinyl   mesh. Um 60% I think 60/40 with light. It It does  allow light through. It's not exactly And it can   come off too. It's And it Yeah. replaceable. I  you know, questions. We don't approve. We don't   approve the content right anymore on these ad  murals, but we do approve whether or not it's an   appropriate location and ad murals were intended  to cover up blank walls or enliven, you know,   areas of the city that are not enliven. Now we  have a building up against there like we want   right in the downtown. I'm not sure this is an  appropriate place for an admiral and I certainly   don't like the idea of covering up windows in  occupied spaces. I I agree with that. I also   feel that because of the shape of it, it looks  to me like when you just look at it, it looks   like a billboard because of the proportions. So  when you look at it before you would really be   able to analyze and say, "No, this is adhered to  the side of a building." it really looks like,   oh, that's some type of an um billboard that's  sitting, you know, maybe on top of a building   or something. So, I think the proportions now  because you're accommodating what's in front of   it are unfortunate and don't read like as a banner  that's enlivening anything. It reads more like,   you know, a traditional billboard, right?  That's the that's the that's before. Yeah.   This is the issue. And then covered up.  Yeah. But it that went on there when there   was nothing there was nothing in that building  then the owner of the building. Exactly. Uh yes,

I don't see a problem with it. I mean this is  what you're seeing across the country and if   you say there is visibility that comes through um  that particular uh graphic and there's approval   by the landlord to have that there because of  the new building that was there that now you   no longer in essence can monetize. So, I mean, I  understand that we're looking we're seeing other   graphics that are going down the street that are  vertical. This one is horizontal. And as you said,   there is light that is coming through the  window. So, I don't necessarily see where there   is an issue from what we're seeing as we're going  down. I believe this is third third street. Yeah. Okay. In my experience, um, if the owner  approved it, um, then it's okay. But I,   from an owner perspective, when we've done that,  we have, um, the person that lives there or the   office that is, you know, impacted and if they're  renting it, we've done some kind of discount,   but it really boil down to what the owner  uh, wanted to do with their building. Um,   but a resident, they're okay with it. They get  a couple of hundred dollars off their rent,   300 just to have this this strain. Most of them  will take it. So, I just want to put that out.   Okay. Other questions, comment, anything from  the audience? What's the pleasure of the group? Uh, I think what we I will ask everybody to do is  put a motion on the floor and then if you don't   like it, you can vote against it. So we I move  approval. Is that a residential or or a business  

building? Those are apartments. Apartments. Is  that correct? Correct. Yeah. Okay. So there's a   motion approval of the admural uh that fits within  the space between the um white cornis and the   white trim line um beyond the first bay and over  to the fire escape. whatever those dimensions are. Okay, fits within the architectural framework.  Is there a second for that? And we'll put it on   the floor and then we'll talk about it. Second.  Okay, so the motion is on the floor. Um questions   or comments again? Well, I mean, I understand  what everybody's saying and I think it's a really   good point, you know, what um Trudy is saying and  Sonia's saying, but I also feel like just looking   at it in terms of design and we always look at  each one individually and see how does that look   in the context of the building. And I just think  this is this just doesn't enhance anything. And I   know it's an issue now of you know they've have  re like look how attractive that looks without   it and I just feel it's a mistake here. So um  that's just how I feel because I think each one   has to be looked at individually to see how it um  contributes. So that's just my coming at it from   a different point of view. Okay. Other questions,  other comments? Uh yeah, I I guess you know if we   were starting from scratch, I'm not sure if I  would support it or not, but since they already   have this use on the building, I think I could  probably support it. I would just I would want to   hold it back from that corner architectural piece  a little bit, Bob. Just I I don't know. Something   about like the banner butdding up against stone  work. But there's a but there's a break there. But  

is that true? Is there really a break or is it is  it flat? There's a probably a 3 or 4 inch. Yeah,   I think recesses. Could we just hold the banner  back 24 in so that it lets that cornice breathe?   Is that too finicky of request? Could be whatever  you want. Well, I'm just I'm just saying what I   would do. I would like to frame Thank you, Bob.  Let the wall of the masonry frame that thing a   little bit rather than it butdding tight. I think  it just looks sort of clumsy buted up tight to   the stonework. That's just my opinion. I don't you  know I agree. I actually agree with that. I think   it would look better. Yeah. I I think that once we  have the way the mounting system works that you're   naturally going to have a probably a almost a foot  to I eight 8 in to a foot of distance anyways just   because of the brackets that go in and the way  that it attaches. So there is going to be a little   bit of distance. We could expand it a little  bit. Can you commit to that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean,   if you're going to do 8 in anyway, why not  give it to like go back to the um image,   please, Belus. So you can see like over by  the that window that's exposed on the left,   there's like a 24 inch brick reveal. I know I'm  beating a detail to death here. Bear with me. I   think it would be appropriate to do that on that  side, too. That works. Okay. and you get to live   with them. Okay. So, can we say that the modify  the motion to create a 24 in order on the right   hand side of and Trudy, you second it, I think,  didn't you? Is that okay with you? Okay. So, that   motion has been modified on there. Then, Belus  h how do we do this? Will you get the dimensions   this new the new dimensions to Belus then so she  can Okay. Okay. So, there is a motion then to do  

this. I'm going to ask for the question here in a  second. Anybody else? Any questions or comments?   Did Tony leave us? Okay. All those in favor say  I. I. Raise your hands, please. Okay. And those   opposed? No. So, it looks like it's four to two.  Belas does pass. So, it passes. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. I don't I don't like it either,  but I think it's a almost a pre-existing kind of   thing. So, I don't know. Okay. Next. Are we done?  Any other cases here? We must be because we I'm   sorry. We're not gonna the jail. Uh oh, the jail  saw one. Okay. Everybody be polite then. here.   We don't. Okay, this is going to be another  interesting discussion. Let me come on Adobe.   I'll tell you what while you review this. Okay,  so this is for 370 South Front Street, which is   located at the southeast corner of South Front  and West Mound Streets and is the former location   of the Franklin. Are you leading? He's coming  back. Oh, okay. up to. Okay. And is the former   location of the Franklin County Correction Center  1 building, otherwise known as the downtown jail,   which was constructed in oh my gosh, in 1969.  The applicant is seeking commission approval to   demolish the building, grade and seed the lot, and  provide ongoing maintenance and upkeep of the lot.   This will allow for intended future redevelopment  of the site for mix for a mixeduse building,   including the Franklin County Erling Learning  Center and streetscape and public space   improvements along Mound Street. The Franklin  County Board of Commissioners will prepare a  

HABS light report submitted to the planning  division to document the existing structure.   The applicant outlines a three-phase approach  to the project. So phase one will be between   February 2026 and February 2027. And that's  the proposed demolition of the jail building   and selective demolition of a portion of the  Franklin County Government Center Pavilion due   to the connectivity between the two buildings. And  then post demolition, the site will be backfilled,   graded, and seated to establish a grass lawn.  Phase two is February of 2027 to December of that   year. and that's the streetscape and public space  improvements along the south side of Main Street   um and the north side of Mound Street. This phase  will also include the reconstruction of portions   of the Franklin County Government Center Pavilion  and concourse that are proposed to be selectively   demolished as a part of phase one. And then  the last phase, phase three, which is a to be   determined date, will be construction of the  future mixeduse building, including the early   learning center. The applicant was last before  the commission for a conceptual review in October   2025, where the commission recommended that the  applicant provide a detailed project schedule and   encourage the provision of a HABS light report to  planning staff before demolition as well as any   schematic designs of the early learning center.  The commission also noted that key historic   downtown fabric will not be lost as the current  structure is tucked back behind the main court   buildings. In response to commission feedback, the  applicant provided added details to the project   schedule and concept drawings for the streetscape  improvements and Franklin County government center   building updates. Submitted materials include  a parcel map, proposed project description,   proposed project schedule, existing site photos,  overall site plan, noting the proposed demolition   limits and perimeter and perimeter fence, existing  site conditions plan, overall building demolition  

and protection plan, proposed site grading  plan, streetscape improvement concept drawings,   and Franklin County government center  building update concept drawings.   Um in looking at those um again this is the  project description um with some added detail   included. Uh this is new. This is the detailed  project schedule that they included. Um we have   the photo log that we saw last time. There are  a few new photos included. And then this is the   overall site plan. Um I don't know why it's doing  that. Okay. Well, maybe we'll revisit these when Oh, well, we'll come back to these. Maybe it  takes a second. I can reload it. But overall,   the downtown design guidelines state that  the downtown district co code requires a   certificate of appropriateness for demolitions  and that a replacement use or plan be approved   by the downtown commission. The guidelines  note that the maximizing the investment   potential of a given site is encouraged, but so  is preservation of existing building stock. The   guidelines encourage the commission to consider  if demolition would allow for new development,   which in their opinion is of greater  significance to the character of   surrounding area. And the applicant is  the application is up for consideration   by the downtown commission who need to  make those considerations which I just   listed. Thank you. All right. Very good.  Could the applicants come up, please? Morning. Morning. Could you identify yourselves  for the record, please? Yes. Chris Long,   Franklin County Deputy County Administrator.  Okay. Steve Wyers with DLZ. And are you going   to join us in the conversation or Yeah, there's  questions. Joe Kyle, architect. Great. Could you  

raise your right hands? Do you swear and affirm  the testimony you're about to give is the truth,   the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? If  so, say I do. I do. Thank you very much. Okay. Um,   we looked at this, what was it, last  month or so? Um, so as you understand,   this is out of our standard uh procedure here.  Um, today you're just asking for a straight   demolition permit. That's correct. Okay.  So, just as a couple preliminary questions,   um, are you set and determined that you will  pro proceed with a new building on this site? Yes. And is that you have the money available  to do that? We do. There a commitment to do   that? There is. In what form? uh there is a  commitment by the three county commissioners   uh to advance this priority for the early  learning center. We are kneedeep in the design   phase and so hence we're not able to provide  the um uh schematic designed for you as yet   um and it does take some time to ensure that we  have the correct um design on that site. It is   going to take some time for us to go through  the process. Um, but it is also going to take   some time to go through the demolition as well  because of the type of building which is why we're   um to your point uh Mr. Chairman somewhat unusual  to come forward with the demolition before we   have the full design done. But because of the  time frame for the demolition of the jail and   it is is past its useful eyes, it cannot be used  any longer for that purpose. That is why we are   in front of you today. Well, the one thing that  just stuck out, I thought it was very interesting   um to me at the last meeting, the last hearing  with you folks was what was involved with the  

demolition in this thing. I mean, I don't  know that I've heard of um something quite   that involved. Um and I get that and to me that  is a very very large circumstance extenduating   circumstance three-inch gap. the other project  that Right. Right. And um I think Tell us again.   I think uh what did you say it's going to take  quite a while to actually do the demolition? Is   that right? Do you have a projected time line on  that one? Yes, we're actually estimating it to be   a 12 month duration period. That will include all  the the remaining abatement that needs to be done   prior to the demo. and then um the demolition  of the jail and the selective demolition of the   roof portion of the concourse. Is this approval  um also rebuilding the the the uh the concourse   or is this just demolition? The the first  phase that we've come to you before today   is for phase one which is just the demolition.  The we are actually um starting design on phase   two which will be the streetscape improvements  as well as the reconstruction of the concourse   uh pavilion roof and and and front. We brought a  few conceptual drawings that um kind of identify   what the the initial concept is for it but they  haven't been carried through schematics yet. So is   it your intent to proceed with those then while  the demolition is occur? Yeah, design will be   you're actually going to start those elements.  The the design will be um even before you   begin construction on the new building. Oh yes,  absolutely. We've got to restore the functionality   of the of the pavilion and concourse area um  front and center. Uh as part of the project,   the security checkpoint that leads into the  pavilion will be relocated. Once we're done  

with demolition and re rebuild the concourse roof,  the security checkpoint will be reestablished back   to its original location. And you do not have  the drawings on that then either the redo of the   pavilion. Uh we've we've brought some conceptual  drawings okay some concept levels but I we will   um we'll come back to the the commission obviously  with the COA application request on that. The   intent is for that to start right after demo.  Um the streetscapes if it works out right may   overlap a little bit um schedule-wise. Uh just  depends how everything falls out. But uh and uh   members of the commission uh two other items. Part  of the demolition is also the decoupling of all of   the utilities that go through that building.  So that is also part of the process. Um that   will take some time to ensure that connectivity  remains. And second, in terms of the design,   um as as current as literally today, we have staff  members who are in uh other portions of the state   looking at other early learning facilities as part  of our design team. So we are absolutely active in   the design process of what that uh will look like.  Yeah. Quest just two comments that I know that you   know these would affect phase two and they're  not affecting what we're doing today but just   in looking at your package I wanted to mention.  So it looks like where you're reconstructing the   west face on the first floor of the Dorian  building and maybe the side of the pavilion.   It looks like you're using Ephus product to do  that. And I'm just wondering that as you decide   how that early child learning center is going  to interface with these existing buildings,   you might want to consider maybe a different  material. Um because that might become more of  

um you know an entry point or something with a  with more traffic or something where you know   you want to use a more substantial material or  higher grade material. So it's just something I   think is cut to the chase. Maybe brick just yeah  you just as usual stone stone stone it might be   something to think about what that material  will be. Currently we're looking at you know   come up to currently what we're looking at bring  another chair up. Bring another chair up guys.   Yeah. Currently what we're what we're looking at  is is the new building kind of coming in right   on top of that that that building. So, we have to  kind of look at the structure and we're trying to   like coordinate the structural elements and then  that will then that siding that that that is only   really only temporary for the most part because  the building's going to be right on top of that.   So, we'll pull that away and then it'll come it'll  be a part of the building. You won't really notice   it. I wasn't sure if it was going to be that  the learning center was offset and there was   a courtyard created or was an entry. So, that's  good to know. Yeah. And then in the plaza area,   I know it's probably just schematic, but  where you're changing where the sculpture is,   and you see you have like the sculpture and the  little grass area. I I'm just going to get up and   show you something that I was thinking. It looks  like you're creating, you know, a zone here. You   have some You have like this white strip here  and it looks like you're creating. Yeah. If this   landscape piece very small, might consider maybe  making it elongating it, taking the sculpture and   offsetting it. So you should create a little  more of a green space and that becomes more   of that seating. And then I don't know, are we  approving this today and all this stuff too like   a little seating area? But I was just thinking  about this and how this is so much hard space  

that maybe there'd be an opportunity to kind of  soften it. It's a plaza. It's an entrance to a   huge complex. Right. One of the things that we're  going to we're kind of in right now is we we are   kind of starting that process of kind of revising  some of those things and kind of working out the   details and kind of finalizing what's going to  happen. So I do see a little bit of evolution at   that location as well. Um, one of the things we're  going to have to do is as we move that, you know,   we're actually kind of that sculpture is going to  be shifted from where it originally was to kind of   where it is on the corner to make it a little bit  more of an in interest to it. And so, as we kind   of begin to do that, we're going to have to most  likely dig out that area. And so, I think that's   going to potentially I mean, I think you're kind  of right. We might have to potentially grow it   just a little bit just to kind of get the soils up  and make it kind of kind of support that location.   But, we can definitely look into that. Just make  kind of make the design a little more dynamic   there. No, I don't. It's But it's famous. Um, go  ahead, Bob. Well, I don't understand what you're   doing north of the pavilion. It looks like you  ripped out all of the artscape and design there   and put grass or something back. That's kind of  a slope there, isn't it? Quite a bit of a slope. I think what I'm reading is you're you've removed  all the stairs to replace it with landscape. Is   that right? Yeah. And then you can kind of begin  to see like a little bit of a switch back as well.   uh we're softening that softening up that side,  but we're also kind of making sure that it's not   an area where people are like laying out or people  aren't, you know, kind of congregating in there,   but it's visually appealing. You can see the  vertical elements of the trees in space. You   can kind of begin to see the soft the softness  of of the materials that we're trying to use,   but we will kind of try to reinvitalize that a  little bit. And that's that's where a lot of the   incline isn't there a lot of the There is a little  bit of an incline. Yeah. Oh, well that can be a um   I I guess to to Janet's point, I think um I think  what I would love to see on this, I think this is  

a really important part of the downtown Columbus,  this kind of courthouse square. And I think we've,   you know, we're getting one building is going  away that frankly is not one of the world's   great buildings. We've got a courthouse that I  think is a pretty well done thing. I I'd like to   see us move towards really doing this well. And  and um when we first got onto the courthouse,   I made the comment to one of the judges that came  in to see me that we should be doing hundredyear   buildings in this in this town. They he they were  coming in and they were taking down a building   that had been there for 25 years. To me, that  is outrageously wasteful. Uh it's terrible. Now,   I understand. I mean, it was it was everything  else. the the the design was bad, they had the   asbestous and it kind of went on and on and on  and on. So, we had to do it. But still, we should   be moving towards doing very high quality both  design-wise and material-wise um uh buildings here   when we do it. And I know everybody everybody's  under a budget constraint. I get that. But still,   I think this is the kind of thing I think I'd love  to see when you come back on this kind of thing.   um really see some high quality stuff. So with  respect to Ephus that you know we can we can   do better than that in this town. Um and that's  only I want to make another real quick comment   about my view of this thing with respect to our  policy which is what we what we try to do is we   don't want buildings torn down because we don't  want somebody to we don't want to end up with   a hole. Okay. I in a way don't see that as  being the case here. Um I think two things.   One is I think it's all part of this complex.  I think it's shut down and everybody will   tell you their building is not usable.  I mean they'll come in and you know it's   uh you know it's just you can't possibly rehab it  and so we have to deal with that. I get it in this  

case it's a totally different use and I think the  use easily qualifies for something better in this   area there your idea. Uh so I from my standpoint  I really don't feel uncomfortable with the idea   of proceeding and then this whole idea of how  long it's going to take you and how involved   that is and I would hate to have go through this  dance where we want to hold you up and then you   come back in with your final stuff and then  we we've just put ourselves a year behind and   I don't think that gets anybody anything. So um  that's just my personal thought on this say that the advisory committee the Brack um when we had  presentations particularly around early learning   the county basically came out and talked about  this early learning session took place um next   to the county big county courthouse because it's a  economic development driver as well as a workforce   development component. And they're also looking  at this being a prototype that they're going to do   across Frankfurt County, but this is their first  effort. And so, like you said, I'm not I know that   our policy usually is if we don't have something  in front of us as far as being able to what's   going to go replace what we're demolishing, but  there is a commitment by the county commissioners   to move forward on this. And that's why I'm  very confident and very comfortable with getting   forward with them. Well, I I agree. I I'm usually  the first one to say we're not going to approve   demolition without a plan, but I'm very familiar  with how complicated that connection is between   the jail and the Dorian building and the connector  and the utilities and all of those things. So,   I I think and and this is not uh it's not some  developer that's come to town from somewhere else  

and says I'm going to do something and then goes  away. It's the county. So, I don't have any lack   of confidence that it's going to happen. I do have  concerns about the the conceptual designs we're   seeing for the outside spaces. And I really think  that before you go any further with this corner,   you should look at all three corners and see  how they relate to one another because a lot of   thought was given to uh to that when the when the  pavilion and the courthouse were built. And I I I   see that sort of deteriorating in these what I'm  seeing here. I think I'm not saying not saying you   have to keep exactly what's there, but I am saying  don't even if it's not not in your scope, show us   what's around it and how these improvements to  the plazas will enhance the courthouse square.   And that you're including in that thought the  southeast corner as well. Yes. Yes. Right. the   common please court building you have improvements  for that too that you had in your package so that   is you know that works together so that would  be when you would come back for phase two and   developing that those would go hand in hand and  you'd be developing those together is that yes   the county um uh owns the the property uh on  the northwest and the uh south southwest part   portion so common and the the pavilion entrance  and uh commission to your point as well would be   happy to take a look at that. We're really proud  of wanting to have a worldass downtown city and   county court complex. That was one of the reasons  the commissioners sold the county property on the   east side of High Street to the city so that the  municipal court h the new municipal courthouse   could stay downtown and be connected.  And so while that is currently in design,   I think your point is really well taken. We want  to be in active conversation and we are but but  

um detailed active conversation to make sure that  that corner uh mountain and high does flow well   together and is something the community can be  proud of and I think what we'd love to see that   along the way and you know sometimes the best  way to do that is see it up in front a little   bit. you're con it obviously conceptually and  it's subject to change but I think that would   make me feel better and maybe all of us and then  as we go we're all kind of on the same page great   does that make sense happy to do it if you could  do that that'd be good and whenever you're ready   to show us something it'd be good and also I think  Mound Street you know years ago it wasn't the main   artery onto 70 and all of that interchange but  now it's functioning differently so when you   approach this courthouse square and you have a  lot of pedestrians. You want to kind of signal   that there's something happening here and there's  a lot of pedestrian traffic. It seems you have   already created um some type of pavement square,  but maybe looking at that too and seeing how that   interacts and connects with what you're doing on  the on the two sites or on all four sites. Well,   three three corners. Yes. Okay. Good. Um any other  thoughts here, questions, comments? Anything from   the audience? Uh, could I ask for a motion then  please? Or what's your thought here proceeding?   How want to proceed? There's a motion to approve.  Is there a second please? Second. Trudy. Thank   you. Motion's on the floor, questions, comments,  anybody? The the the motion is to approve the or   the um request which is for demolition. Yes.  Okay. Any other questions or comments? And a   question about the fencing. So the area because of  the demolition of the jail building, you're going  

to have that whole area that eventually becomes  the seated area phase two fenced. And will that   have some type of w you know how sometimes you  have those fences and there's some type of wrap   that explains what's coming next. Um how will  the fence look? And you also talk about a jersey   barrier and where will where will that be? I'll  defer to my my architect colleagues here in just   a moment. But once the um if there is um that  uh pause before the design is done and the the   early learning center is constructed um once that  is landscaped the fence will no longer be there.   So I wanted to make that clear. That is not going  to be I don't think I was as clear as I could have   been last month. uh but during the construction  process, I'll defer to my uh colleagues to talk   further about uh your particular question. Thank  you. So, yeah, there's there's going to be the   concrete jersey barrier um on Front Street and  Mound. And then when you get up to the corner   of Mound and High, you can kind of see where the  arrow is pointing there and the symbol changes a   little bit. It'll be a waterfilled Jersey barrier  with the fence on it. um that will be put in place   prior to demo and then it will remain in place  until the completion of demo at which point then   we will pull it in and restrict the sidewalks  because the sidewalks will be closed as part   of the phase 2 work and then once phase two is  completed then a as sections are done and then   we could open it back up with our uh maintenance  of traffic and pedestrian traffic plan we'll open   them back up but the intent is to remove all the  fencing as Chris indicated. Um, at the completion   of the project, there will be a wind screen and  probably some script um on on that as well. What  

what it says um we haven't determined yet. Okay,  good. Any other questions, comments? All those   in favor say I. I. Those opposed, thank you very  much. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. All   right. So, two more things on the agenda. One is  motioning for the staff approved applications into   the record and then we can pick the Harrison Smith  award and look at the list for that. Okay. Could I   have a motion to um approve the staff approvals,  please? Is there a second? Second. Thank you. Um   any questions or comments? Um, I thought I had  one. Scroll down just a little bit more there. Uh,   and I can't remember what it was. I might have to  call you later. Okay. I can't remember. Uh, you   want to You can call me. I'll call you back. Yeah,  if I think of it. Okay, good. All those in favor?   I. Those opposed. Okay. Those are approved. Belus.  Thank you. All right. So, Harrison Smith Awards.   Um, Adam's doing a wonderful job coordinating  this whole process. Okay. And he put together   this list. So, as a reminder, last year, Topiary  Park was the winner. And, uh, this year we have   a few options. Um, one is Preston Center. Again,  this is a great example of office to residential   conversion. Um, adding some mixed use on the site  as well with the restaurant and the sunken garden.   This was completed in 2023 with Edwards Companies.  Um Adam put this nice uh before image here. Um and   then we have the after. Um so that's option one.  Option two is a library park development. So this   is residential 145 units by PUDI. This opened  in 2022. And again we and this is near uh the  

library. So again we have that before a lot of  surface parking good infill opportunity and then   the after there. Um next we have uh the Madison  redevelopment. So this is corner of high and   gay. Um I think it's almost finished but we have  44 units there by Edwards opened in 2024. Good   example of that mixed use with retail on the first  floor and then residential above. Um, so this is   what it was beforehand. Uh, and then now just that  enhanced development. Uh, last we have, uh, the   Nicholas apartment. This is actually across the  street. Um, so it's mixed use with 230 units also   by Edwards, opened in 2019. A lot of retail along  the first floor. um you know some larger national   um tenants but then also hosting our a lot of  our ground floor growth uh small business shops   as well. Um so again big lot of surface parking  here as well and then having that infilled. Um   so those don't we usually approve things or or  select things that were completed like this year   uh 2019? No. Um, typically it's just a project  that's been completed recently, recently. It   doesn't have to be this year. Um, I don't know.  I don't know that any significant projects have   been completed this year in 2025. There's a lot  that's been started. There's a lot that's being   worked on. Um, but yeah, it's typically just  a recent project. You can check on it. Yeah,   I can check on it. That's how I was trained  by Lewis, but I'll double check. Yeah. What's   everybody think? What's a what jumps out at you?  Can I just make a Absolutely. Okay. I was going  

to I'm sorry if I'm jumping all over everyone. I  think this is sort of focused on buildings alone.   And I would put Madison and the Nicholas together  as two things that really contribute to improving   downtown space and high street which has been  overlooked maybe since the Nationwide Tower got   built in whatever year that was. Um so you know if  I had to pick I'd really struggle. There's these   are all really amazing projects, but I think  Madison's and Nicholas together are, you know,   doing something for a high street corridor that  hasn't been done in a long time. So, I just wanted   to offer that. And Madison's is not totally done  yet, is it? No. Or at least the big It's almost   there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that high-rise  building's nowhere near done. Pardon? Yeah. You used to see no one and now you see everyone.  Yeah. Right there. So, I agree that the two should   be combined because they're not separate. Yeah.  And architecturally, I think they're um they're   composed of bits and pieces. It's more about the  sum of the parts. Right. Okay. I think it's the   whole intersection. I would include the citizens  building and the uh the little white bank. I mean,   that whole as a recognition of this work. The  sculpture, that whole thing together is an amazing   thing. Yeah, the the sculpture was the 2022 winner  or 2020. Yeah, 2023 winner, I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah.   Last year was to park. The year before that was  uh under current. We've done we did the Yeah,   I think the art is great. I love it. No complaints  about that. But the way these buildings contribute   to adding people to the neighborhood and  activating the street is amazing giving   how hard it's been to do anything on high street.  Oh, I know. I went to dinner there recently and  

like every restaurant was full. When I relocated  here, I lived in a citizen and um it was during   co and I remember looking out my window. I  had that corner unit and that was a eyesore   Madison that corner and I was asking around like  what's going to happen? What's going on there?   Um, and I did get privy to what was going to  happen and now I regret not buying that condo. Um, so to see it's so dynamic now and it's just  been a transformation in five years that entire   portion. Now if you want to talk about uh timeline  though the the citizens building was done some   time ago. Um so the recent current done or almost  done is Nicholas and Madison's even Nicholas is   not I mean 2019 is quite a while back as it turns  out. So, I think that I think we could talk about   the ongoing um because it isn't quite finished  uh redevelopment of I'm not troubled by I'm   not particularly troubled by saying it has to be  immediately done and we you know I think you could   say that the uh citizens building doesn't really  come into its own until the rest of this happens.   Right. It all it's all and we've had multiple  buildings and multiple owners before. I mean,   it doesn't have to be a building. Okay. Yeah, I  agree. I mean, I came in wanting the Preston, but   I think what everybody's saying here, this is the  real spirit of the awards. This is so contributo,   so important and I couldn't agree more with  what you are saying. So, this is my vote,   too. And combining them like you said. Okay. So,  I'm I'm hearing two things. I'm hearing one option   is just the buildings at the corner of Gay and  High as as a whole, the four. Um, but I'm also  

hearing the just leaving it to the Nicholls and  the Madison's redevelopment, but combining them.   So, which option would we like? I think, you know,  the world's our oyster, so we can pick whatever   we'd like here. Do you want to do the four or do  we want to limit it to the nickels and the most   recent I guess which is nickels and Nicholas?  Yeah, I wouldn't I don't think we should limit   it. I think it's the whole intersection. Whole  intersection. That's like a 10-year renovation   of that intersection, right? Or so. Yeah. I think  recognizing, you know, the Edwards company and   everything that that they've done there and  like how much I think they he views it that   way a little bit too was the idea that you don't  just go in and do a building. The idea was the   opportunity was to do a certain a bunch of several  different ones. Exactly. Create a a a mixuse   area right there. Yeah. restaurants, you have  apartments, condos, condos. What you could what   you could do is just call it the the intersection  of gay and high. I was just thinking gay and high   redevelopment and then looking at, you know,  that I think acknowledging Edwards companies,   but then also the architects landscape, you know,  everybody that's been involved in those in in that   node of redevelopment, I guess. Does that work for  everybody? And the city played a role. Yeah. Yeah.   Yeah. Okay. Okay. I'm in favor of that, too.  I like that a lot. I will say though, looking   at some of these other ones, I think that that  front of that uh 155 East Broad Street building,   the um Oh, the Preston Center. Oh my gosh. I think  that's just fantastic. Getting rid of that that   black box in front, which I didn't get and the  sunken garden. The only issue that I have with and   it's not a design issue. I think it's fabulous,  but it's not open to the public. What's not open  

to the public? the sun garden. I called yesterday  to ask, you know, because I wasn't sure and they   said it isn't. So that really Oh, I didn't know  that. Influenced me a little bit to think I don't   really sure look at it. Yeah. But still, it's  such an interesting example and how, you know,   when it was built, there was one philosophy and  through the years how it it changed and how it   became more. And I will say I think those that  pizzudi thing there at Library Park is fantastic.   Amazing building and the ground floor experience  is really great. The whole integration of public   art on that building is awesome. There those are  all really I would vote for any of these. Yeah.   Okay. So I think we've kind of come to a right.  Yeah. Everybody on board feel good about it.   Okay. We'll proceed on. Gay and high. Okay. Good.  Okay. You're good. Okay. Anything else we need   to do? That was the last item on the agenda.  Well, happy Thanksgiving everybody. You too.