Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Chairman, you're live, Mike.

Thank you. Good morning and welcome to the August 20th, 2026 Collier-Cartney Planning Commission. I would ask that all of us please rise for the Pledge of Allegiance.

With that I would ask that the Commissioner Shea would please take the roll Chairman Schmidt here Vice Chair Schumacher here Secretary Shea is here Commissioner Sparazza here Commissioner McLeod here Commissioner Petzer here Commissioner Luccarelli is not here

Yeah, he had he called in these committed to a court case so that we would consider that an excused absence.

In this locker here. We have a quorum, Sir.

Thank you, excellent. Ray, are there any addenda to the agenda?

Yes we do have a continuous request and Mike's going to talk about it Yeah I passed out the email received yesterday from Mr. Davies who's here to address the planning commission I believe he's going to request a continuance of the Hacienda townhomes Yeah and I did speak to Mr. Davies about this as well

it's his option he wanted to continue to resolve some issues with the neighboring property and that was his client i told him we still could listen to a petition and move it forward based on any recommendations but he chose to continue which is fine so i guess it'll be continued till the 20th

What date was that?

17th of September? 17th.

Yes, he specifically requested a continuance to the September 17th agenda. We have nothing on that item, so it's open and it's free for it. And I guess it would be by vote of the Planning Commission if the continuance.

Noel, did you want to make any statement or no? Okay, so can I hear a motion and a second to continue? Motion. I hear a second. Second. All in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed, like sign. Passes unanimously. Noel, we'll see you on the 17th. Thank you. All right. Our next meeting is September 3rd. Has that been canceled because all we had was an LDC amendment scheduled?

We have nothing scheduled. We were going to ask the Planning Commission to cancel that meeting officially.

That's fine with me and then the following meeting will be the 17th are there any projected people commissioners projected to be absent I will most likely be absent for that meeting I'll be absent as well I will also Only got one thing on that well Noel better get that figured out with that property somebody catch Noel yeah because I don't think we'll have a quorum no it looks like we may not have a quorum for the 17th that will depend upon mr. Luccarelli's yeah so that that has the potential to put you out to the October 1st meeting which bumps your board meeting but does it not

That if it has to move to the I believe it is the first of October October 1st.

Yes, it would it would push the his BCC hearing out So it's iffy that we'll have a quorum I and we probably won't know until Probably the early September but right now we have myself and two other commissioners and kind of projected to be absent and

For the record, Noel Davies understood. I mean, I think that's what I heard in the hallway. Yeah. Three are projected to be not here on the 17th.

Right. And Commissioner Luccarelli, we don't know.

We don't know.

and and i will coordinate with uh um eileen from my office and we will send out uh after this meeting we'll send out a uh a request to to all the planning commissioners just to confirm your availability for that meeting so we can get a little bit uh more feedback to them all right thank you very much well noel i commend your client anyway to try and reserve resolve the issue uh at least it might get to a point where it's non-controversial but

We do want to try to resolve it with our neighbors to the east, so we appreciate that opportunity. Good, thanks. Thank you.

Next item, approval of minutes. We have July 16, 2026. meeting that was the 4 p.m ccpc meeting and then we had the 5 p.m meeting that was on 20 on july 16 2026 two separate meetings so can i hear a motion to approve both amendments unless there are any uh or correction both sets of minutes unless there are any amended comments or amendments to the minutes so moved okay i hear a second second second all in favor say aye aye opposed like signs passes unanimously Ray BCC report. On August 11th the Board of County Commissioners did not have any land use petitions to hear that day Yeah, I saw that we're not keeping them busy enough summer break summer break And I did ask Mike before the meeting You're still working on the data center Amendments and then the amendment for the errant ball will probably go to the board and errant golf balls that we addressed at our Planning Commission meeting that'll go to the board in October

That's going to be, we have now accelerated to September 22nd.

September 22nd? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I would ask that you advise the impacted property owners so they can begin to start their process for a variance.

Correct because in that item now with the agreement from the property owner adopting the Quell Creek amendment that's gonna be a summary item for the board so yeah the next step is going to be the the actual application for the conditional use in that process Makes our day exciting Nothing from the chairman's report nothing on the consent agenda so we'll go to the first public hearing

Those are two items, 9A and 9B. They require EAC approval as well. 9A, PL20230016340. That's 341 Sable Palm Road Golf Course Subdistrict. That's a GMPA. And the companion item, 20230016342. 341 Sable Palm Road, CFPUD. And those are two companion items. I want to be clear from the start because there's been a lot of misinformation on this. This is a request, and for those in the audience, this is a request for a golf course. It has nothing to do with a request for homes. That issue has been pulled by the applicant, and this is a request for the golf course, so I know there was some concerns that this is somehow... going to be a sleight of hand where the golf course is approved and then they're going to come back in for the affordable housing. That's not going to happen. I'll ask that the client or the client's attorney stress that point at the opening because this is a request in front of us. It's a request and a request only for a small-scale GMP amendment and the accompanying CFPUD, which is basically... Well, it's the golf course plus the requested amenities at the golf course. So with that, I would ask that anybody wishing to speak please rise to be sworn in. And disclosures.

Staff materials only.

Staff materials only.

I did speak to Mr. Yovanovitch about this application in detail Staff materials conversation with Mr. Yovanovitch and conversation with Mike Staff materials and conversation with Mr. Yovanovitch Staff materials spoke with Mr. Yovanovitch and visited the site and the surrounding areas Okay with that Rich I turn it over to you

Thank you and good morning. Rich Yovanovitch on behalf of the property owners and the contract purchaser. Alexis Crespo is our land use planner. Wayne Arnold has since retired and Alexis has

Oh, wait a minute. Who gave him authority to retire? I know. I know. Some of us in this room are a little jealous. You know, now... You've got to warn him. Now he's a potential candidate for the Planning Commission. He gave me very explicit instructions that should he apply to make sure I tank his nomination.

Norm Trebillacock is our Transportation Consultant. Tim Haller is our Environmental Consultant. And Tim Hildebrandt is our... golf course consultant I'm gonna tee it up briefly then I'm gonna one of the property owner representatives would like to address you know the Planning Commission and then we'll get into a little bit more detail about the petition but As the chairman pointed out, this is simply a request for a golf course to be constructed on the 169-acre Citrus Grove that is on the visualizer in front of you and everybody in the audience. We are not asking for any homes. We are asking for 10 cabanas, whatever the right word is, members guest cottages the terminology is interchangeable when you're talking about private golf courses sometimes they're referred to as cabanas sometimes they're referred to as cottages they are transient structures for members to come play golf and leave they're they're an accessory use to the golf course no permanent residents associated with this petition at all How we got here is as you know we originally requested basically affordable housing for sale project on the site at the Board of County Commissioners hearing there were two voiced opposition so as you know you need to get four out of five we requested a continuance during this discussion by the Board of County Commissioners there were representatives that got up there and said hey we've got people who are interested in buying the property maybe conservation collier will buy the property and maybe there could be a less intense use around the property other than the 400 plus homes that were originally being proposed as i sit here today or stand here today we've received zero offers on the property we did apply to conservation collier as requested if anybody watched the hearing when the board of county commissioners was asked to go get appraisals for this property you will see that it was if you even get the appraisals because this piece of property is not a conservation collier piece of property it's not something that would typically be acquired as part of conservation call your nonetheless the appraisals went out we haven't received an offer yet we've been reading in various newsletters that we should be receiving an offer within the next couple of weeks so we'll have that offer in hand before we get to the board of county commissioners to decide what we want to do so we're here today to simply present to you uh a golf course to be developed on this property uh it is a uh those of you who are golfers and have been out to golf courses in areas like this like elusa pines or old florida you will see that they are nature friendly you play golf along with the deer you play golf along with the alligators At night, you know, the animals have free roam of the property. So if you're an animal that likes to go hunting at dawn, you've got a nice vacant area to go hunting at dawn and dusk. So this is an environmentally sensitive use on the property. You'll hear that from our consultants in a little bit greater detail. So we're gonna get into the details of that you've heard me say before that The people who own this property currently are farmers They've been farmers Those of you Joe was around I was around Ray was around when the rural French mixed-use district Process was going through and the changes to the growth management plan and the changes to the land uses and unlike a rezone that i represent for private property owners no notice is provided other than what's in the newspaper there's no signs there's no letters so when property owners don't even know what's happening through this process unless someone tells them what's happening through this process so i want you to hear from the property owners that basically they didn't know that rights were being taken away when they were busy farming this property so with that I'll bring Hank up Rich before you get up just to clarify from your understanding

That Conservation Collier, I understand that the Conservation Collier Land Acquisition Committee voted in favor of trying to acquire the property or spending money to get an appraisal.

They ranked it to be acquired and to go get appraisals.

They got ranked. But did they debate at all the... whether this property even fell within the criteria for purchase.

I didn't watch what happened at the committee. I watched what happened at the board, at the Board of County Commissioners. So it's really a Jamie Cook question, but I could just tell you what I watched.

Well, just to clear the air for the meeting, because I know folks in the audience are wanting this to be purchased by Conservation Collier.

i was on staff when we developed the conservation collier program i my belief is it does not qualify but that's a board decision and at the end of the day it's irrelevant to this conversation i just wanted to tell you how we got here okay i don't want to debate whether it qualifies or it doesn't qualify i'm just telling you that the Board of County Commissioners had a heated debate whether or not to even go and get appraisals on the property. So I'm not confident that there's going to be a satisfactory price offered. So we're going through this process. I want you to know why we're here, and we're not selling the property to a private group that was represented to us. We were to receive an offer.

So the bottom line is there's been no offer properly.

We have no offer from any private owners or from Conservation County yet. We expect an offer from Conservation Collier. I don't know the amount. Sometime in the next couple of weeks.

All right. Well, Jamie, that's good because I just want to make sure that the folks who are going to speak understand. And I guess I'll leave it at that, that there's question whether this even would qualify. Because there would be a major expense in trying to restore the property as well.

This is a land use decision as to whether or not this is an appropriate use on this property. Right. Before rural French mixed-use district was adopted, this property was eligible to get a conditional use for a golf course. So a golf course was contemplated on this property before the rural French mixed-use district adopted. process started. When it became sending lands, those rights were taken away and we're trying to get back the limited right for a golf course that was taken away.

Good morning, commissioners. Thank you very much for this meeting. My name is Henry Jacobs, and I'm also one of the present owners of South Naples Citrus Grove. When our family, my in-laws, purchased the Sable Palm Road property in 1978. Not only did we have a vision of developing a citrus grove, but also a future hope of eventually considering our property's location proximity to State Road 951, that a residential development would have been a real possibility. As we have experienced the devastating effects of citrus screening over the last 10 to 15 years, including the citrus industry at large, we are our family, all at or beyond retirement age, hoping the earlier proposed residential development with affordable housing would have been a real possibility. But that is not the case today. In light of all the concerns brought forward, we believe the golf course proposal can satisfy everyone. As the property owners, this would allow us to move forward to the next chapter in our lives, being retirement, which the sale of this property could achieve. We attended and heard the concerns brought up at the neighborhood informational meeting. And as the property owners, we would like to address some of those concerns bearing in mind our property is not a pristine native habitat. We cleared the land, planted citrus trees and maintained the citrus grove for the past 47 years. Some of the main concerns that came up at the informational meeting was protecting the Florida Panther, traffic concerns, drainage, water, and fires. And what I would like to add to those concerns as far as read what there was an environmental study completed on our property, which showed no endangered Panther sightings. However, we understand there is concern, and as with the Citrus Grove, a golf course will provide a panther corridor allowing all protected animals to move and travel safely across the land as the environmental experts recommended. As far as traffic is concerned, a golf course will probably generate roughly 60 daily cars due to a membership cap. which is significantly less than the average daily 152 cars generated from our customer traffic at our retail operation. Drainage water, many golf course ponds are designed primarily to collect and manage runoff, while also serving as hazards and landscape features. Beyond affecting play, these water features often serve several purposes. Irrigation water storage, storm water management and flood control, as well as wildlife habitat. And regarding fires, I can't imagine a better buffer from a wildfire than a golf course with its grass fairways and ponds. As a family owning this property, we think this rezoning request is very reasonable and ask that you recommend for approval the positions being sought. Respectfully, the Smiths Jacobs family.

Thank you we have any questions commissions, thank you very much.

As I mentioned, we're here for two things. One is the growth measure plan amendment limited solely to a golf course and accessory uses and a rezone to a community facility PUD for the golf course and the accessory uses, including the transient member guest golf cottages. That's it. That's all we're asking for. don't know why the conservancy thought we were asking for residential in their letter so i'm clarifying for the conservancy that this is purely a golf course request I'm not going to get into all the details of what's in the growth management plan sub-district. This is the overall, some of the provisions within the sub-district. I want to point out a couple of important features. Obviously we all have 70% open space on the overall site, more likely will be more. But basically the clubhouse and the cottages will probably be the only non-open space uses together with the maintenance facility and cart barn. So generally it's an open space use on the property. It will be designed to meet the Audubon International Signature Sanctuary Gold Certification. Someone at the NIM said, do you know who designed those standards? I didn't know, but when I looked and I said, guess what? It is Audubon. It is Audubon International. It's in cooperation with golf course developers to develop environmentally sensitive golf courses. And what does that mean? Limited pesticides, you pick your turf based upon reduced amount of use of water. There are actually site visits that are done. with Audubon prior to designing the golf course. So this is a process where Audubon is involved in the design of an environmentally sensitive golf course. So I appreciate the comment at the neighborhood information meeting and I was able to educate myself a little bit more on what has always been a county requirement in its comprehensive plan. you do a golf course either in receiving or neutral lands you meet the Audubon standard so that's what we've incorporated into this golf course is the standard that has always been in your comprehensive plan since the rural French mixed-use district standards have been adopted There are requirements that we meet best management practices as prepared by the Florida Department of Environmental Protection. We have to design our stormwater system to mimic natural systems and we have to meet the site preservation standards within the comprehensive plan, the habitat native vegetation standards. all in your comprehensive plan subdistrict. The request is 18 whole golf course, a maximum of 10 transient member guest cottages, 70% usable open space, preservation of minimum of 35% of the existing native vegetation. These are standards that currently exist. in your land development code for golf courses that are developed in the rural fringe, receiving areas, as well as the neutral areas. The reality is we're going to preserve more than 35% of our existing native vegetation. I'll show you that on the master plan. We're essentially saving the two pockets of existing native vegetation as part of the golf course. We'll have clubhouse, practice facilities, maintenance facilities, water management and related. entities there is a low trip generation it is 57 two-way peak hour peak hour trips we analyzed this as if it was a public golf course so we were very conservative in our analysis of traffic private golf courses Believe it or not, the ITE manual doesn't have a study that analyzes just private golf courses. So we went with the more conservative approach as if it was a public golf course that generates far more trips and far more foursomes playing golf than these private golf courses. And we will use Well and Septic to serve the clubhouse as well as other areas where you might need water and a septic where you may need to go to the facilities yes sir question on the on the well that's just for the clubhouse for the potable water the irrigation water will be surface water that's collected in your ponds or or will have a well remember there's existing wells out there now for the agricultural use so we will not be using any potable water for irrigating the golf course well okay

The only reason I ask is we can't get a well and our grass is drying up, so I'm hoping that we're not building new golf courses that use well water to irrigate the golf course.

Remember, we're already in agriculture use with a well water permit. The amount of water consumption will go down overall.

This was a farmland so typically they have a consumptive use permit already authorized South Florida Water Management District Is the golf course farmland The consumptive use permit belongs to that piece of property You go in and you modify your consumptive use permit It's a right that already exists with the property I think probably Tim Hall could probably expand on that but it's farmland and that goes that consumptive use permit does not go away when you convert it but you're right you can't get a new permit but the existing permits are still valid

Rich sounds like you'll also need septic and well for each of the 10 cottage homes. Okay.

Yes.

The point is, we will not be extending any public water or sewer facilities to this property before the county attorney.

I just have one clarification. The Clubhouse. It is not open to the public. It's strictly private.

This is a private golf course. Private golf course, private club.

Unless you're a member or a guest of a member, you're not playing golf. So there won't be like Thursday night spaghetti night or something where people... I'm not going to say they're never going to feed food to their members. Yes.

But I'm saying it's not a restaurant open for Rich Yovanovitch to come. And candidly, what the private courses are, Rich Yovanovitch is not going to be a member either.

Just for the record, I wanted to mention that what he put on the visualizer was more of a summary. So the ordinance is a little bit more detailed on the gold standard and a few more provisions. So staff is recommending the ordinance, correct, Mike?

Yeah, I just was summarizing. I didn't want to go through every provision in the ordinance.

It's in the back. Troy, can I take an interruption? Troy, if you get time, my...

notice screen here for speakers is not working but so uh... we'll just have to raise our hand and proceed but go ahead ridge this is this is the master plan uh... pud master plan uh... we have interviewed golf course architects golf course architects have been out to the site to look at the property uh... we haven't picked one yet we haven't designed the golf course yet because that is very expensive and didn't want to go through that expense if we weren't going to get a golf course approved through the growth management plan amendment and the PUD process So you'll see, you know, the entrance, primary entrance to the golf course will be there. The clubhouse will be appropriately sited somewhere on this property. And then we have a second maintenance-only entrance onto Sable Palm Road to access the golf course. Okay. as i mentioned the chip generation rate as i've already mentioned we assumed a worst case scenario public golf course and that is what results in 57 two-way pm peak hour trips it will be far less than that but i don't have an ite manual study to show what private golf courses generate i can only tell you anecdotally the few times i've been privileged to play Some of these golf courses, they're not very crowded. So there's not as much play as you have at a public golf course. There's an overall 80% reduction in traffic than the residential project had. And it does not create any significant impact on Cotter Boulevard. And it does not in any way degrade the level of service of Sable Palm Road to have this golf course use allowed on the property. We'll have to do an extension of one of the U-turn lanes in Collier Boulevard and we'll do that. And should there be any necessary improvements to Sable Palm beyond where the county currently maintains it, we'll do those improvements. But we don't anticipate having to do any improvements to Sable Palm Road based upon the low trip generation rate associated with this golf course. I'm going to ask Tim Hildebrand to come up now because there were some people who questioned whether there really is a need for more private golf courses in Collier County. So I'm going to have Tim come up, talk about the unmet demand in Collier County, and then come up with some conclusion, concluding remarks, and then open it up to any questions you may have.

Thanks, Rich. Good morning. What I tried to do is... Name for the record, please. Oh, I'm sorry, Tim Hildebrand. And what I'm here to provide is an overview of the Collier County Golf Market. So according to Florida's Paradise Coast, which is your tourism website, Collier County has approximately 90 golf courses. So for market analysis, these courses really can be grouped into three primary categories. First category is gated community golf courses, which there's approximately 63 gated community golf courses in Collier County. Those would be courses like Mediterra, Naples Heritage, Twin Eagles, Imperial. That's where golf is integrated into a master plan residential community. The golf course is generally intended to support and enhance residential real estate values rather than operate solely as a standalone golf club. According to the record, you currently have seven public courses. Those are operated primarily to provide public access golf. Access is generally available without required membership or a private residential community or club. So when we start to look at high-end private golf clubs in Collier County, there are approximately, we feel, 10 of those clubs where golf is the primary purpose of the development. Membership access is limited and not dependent on owning a residence within the community. According to some research we did, right now within those 10 clubs, there are 700 people on waiting lists trying to get into those 10 clubs. uh... approximately the shortest waiting period that we see right now is approximately three years and that can go up to ten years so if you look at the demand for high-end private golf clubs over the last four years the average initiation fee right now is of those ten clubs is three hundred fifty five thousand dollars that's comparable to a hundred eighty seven thousand dollars four years ago so you have an increase of eighty nine percent in initiation fees in the last four years If I take out the high and the low and I look at the eight remaining clubs, the average initiation fee is $303,000 compared to $174,000 four years ago. Again, an increase of 74%. So the strong demand, extended waiting lists, significant growth in initiation fees, we think indicate a substantial demand for high-end private golf club membership in Collier County. Now, as Rich was talking about, architects today really understand they're responsible to the natural environment. And if you go to any other websites, Gil Hance, Kyle Phillips, architects like that, they spend a lot of time on their websites talking about sustainability and the commitment to the environment. In fact, there's a quote from Gil Hance, who we use down at Kinsale, is our golf course should come as closely as possible to reflect in the natural surrounds. They do this through the use of natural plants or grasses. They incorporate native areas. So, for example, if you look at Kinsale, which is down across from Kalia Bay, the property itself for the golf course acreage is 115 acres. Of that, there are only 50 acres of grass. that are being used for the golf course. The remaining are natural native areas. And as Rich said, we see a lot of deer, a lot of wildlife on that golf course. The final point I'll make, and Rich already said it, is again, we look at the Audubon International Gold level, which makes sure that this course is environmentally friendly. It's designed to be created with habitat, wild habitat. And again, this is something that the golf community has embraced, and they work closely with Audubon. So with that, those are my remarks. Thank you.

One question. I'm here.

There's speakers behind you. I'm sorry. I'm a rookie here.

Many of these courses, in your experience, and you cited 90 golf courses, 63 gated, 7 public and 10 private. Yep. The majority of those, many of these courses, especially in the private or in the communities, the summer months, typically six to eight weeks, they're closed. And I would anticipate this private club would probably be similar to Naples National, where they close for probably two and a half, three months.

Yeah, if you look at Colusa, if you look at Kinsale, yeah, they're basically, they end probably Memorial Week and they shut down, they reopen October 15th, primarily because the staff if you're using caddies or staff, they tend to head up north in the summer months, and there's just not enough play to sustain it.

Of course, they're also doing maintenance, golf course maintenance, punching fairways.

That gives the superintendent the ability to do all his maintenance during those five months when you're shut down, correct?

Okay. I see no other questions. Any questions? Thanks.

Actually, I have a question.

Well, it shows Burt Sanders on here, but he's not here not to speak.

Michelle, was that you?

Yes, yes. A question for Tim. You had mentioned one of the golf courses only using 50 acres of the golf course over... Over about 115 acres of property. Right, exactly. How many acres will be used for this golf course?

Right now we don't know because we have not hired, but the projects that I've worked on, we're doing another course up in Lee County. which is old corkscrew that's now being developed into a high-end club. That's a 180-acre site for the golf course, of which we're using about 65 acres. The trend right now, and I was telling Rich this earlier, is because of the cost of fertilizers, because of the environmental impact, these designers are now embracing the landscape. So if you look at a golf course, you're seeing a lot of native areas. That's the design look of today. And it's a lot more economic, makes sense economically to build golf courses like this. So lowers water use, lowers any type of fertilization, and actually seems to be the end trend right now with all golf design.

And so that's for a 12-hole golf course?

No, that's for an 18-hole golf course.

That's an 18, okay.

Yep. Is this 18 or 12? This will be an 18-hole golf course, correct.

Thank you.

Yeah, in the old days it was wall-to-wall grass, golf courses, but now there's a whole lot of native areas that become your roughs and if you hit an errant golf ball, that's where you get to go find and play it out. It makes it very interesting. So in summary, staff's recommending approval of both the growth management plan amendment and the PUD rezone. It's a low intensity, environmentally friendly use of the property. It preserves a substantial amount of open space. And I didn't point out, but I wanted to point out on the master plan, if you recall from the aerial, there's basically two areas of native habitat. It's these two areas on the property They're both staying and that resulted in one of the deviations that we asked for which was to not have contiguous preserves And the reason we don't have contiguous preserves is because the native areas are not contiguous to each other We would like to preserve both of those we probably don't need to label them as preserves but we have because we don't need to we don't need technically to retain all of that area but we are our golf course is consistent with the standards of the other areas of the rural fringe mixed-use district it's being designed at the signature sanctuary certification gold level it has a de minimis impact on county roads and this means less than one percent impact on the roads and it's consistent with all of your provisions basically of the growth management plan and your land development code except we're currently in sending lands and we would like to have our own sub-district to allow for this golf course to go forward as I mentioned prior to the adoption of the rural fringe mixed-use district comp plan and zoning standards within agricultural lands golf courses were a conditional use so we're just asking for that one use back that these property owners had when they purchased the property many many years ago that concludes our presentation all of the experts are here to

answer any questions you may have regarding any topic you want to talk to but that's the summary of our I do have a question and if I see Mr. Hall back there and I'd like to chat with him about the permitting process and where we're at just for the public edification as well Good morning Tim Good morning You were part of the process when this was going to be a residential development. You submitted all the permitting, 404 permit application for this with the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. Have you started the resubmittal and an amendment?

No, sir. The resubmittal has not been – no new submittals have been made to the Corps since the previous one was withdrawn.

Okay.

Oh, so that one was withdrawn?

The Corps withdrew it because of the project not moving forward. Okay. We weren't, yeah.

So you're nowhere in the Section 7 consultation or any aspect from a standpoint of Panther habitat, impact of Panther mitigation, those kind of things have not been addressed yet?

Not to the effect of they're all going to change because the golf course use is different than the residential. So the numbers and the math that goes into the PHU analysis for the Panthers, the bonded to bat analysis, they look at residential and golf course a little bit differently. So. the listed species conversations have started with the agencies because of the prior application but those conversations have not been amended or moved forward given this new one is this property considered going to be considered previous used croplands that would fall under that criteria Under the PHU analysis. Yes, PHU analysis. Yeah, they actually have a category for groves. So part of it will be grove. Part of it will be classified as exotic. Those areas that are vegetated but don't meet the native vegetation requirements will be counted as exotic under that value. And then the native areas will have the native area value.

Okay, for the public, PHU is a Panther Habitat Unit. That's a form of measurement for what is deemed to be an impact on Panther habitat. But you have no idea of any sort what you're going to... I do anticipate you're going to pay some sort of PHU fee.

Absolutely.

Payment on this for impact, which you can either do through Panther mitigation elsewhere or through purchasing of credits in designated Panther habitat locations.

Yeah, it could be through purchasing the credits from one of the approved conservation banks or purchasing another property, cleaning it up and turning it over to a management entity to be kept as preserved.

But when you submitted your first permit, was any of that even started from the standpoint? But regardless, it's all now completely- It's all moot. The numbers will be different. It's all moot. So even the environmental impact, environmental assessment, all has to be redone then. right yeah there is you know some of the the components of the project that were associated with the residential won't apply with respect to the golf course so yeah the last question there was a lot of discussion about the flowway and enhanced flowway and all that which was a considerable benefit understanding because of the size of this that that is going to disappear that'll be Now the flowway or whatever was going to be anticipated will be integrated with the lakes and other activities on the property. Is that correct?

J.D. would be better to respond to that.

Yeah, let me talk. Has he started the ERP process?

Good morning. Name for the record? J.D. DeForge. Yeah. Did you swore to him?

No, I didn't. I'm sorry. He needs to be sworn in.

I do. So JD Forge, for the record, we have not started the ERP process at this point. There's no golf course design. But with regards to the flowway, there is a ditch on site that conveys water from north to south from the Hacienda Preserve. So we would have to continue to respect that historic drainage pattern when the golf course gets designed.

Again, for the public, ERP is Environmental Resource Permit. That's processed through the South Florida Water Management District. But any concerns about neighbors being flooded or waterway, that will all be dealt with through your ERP process. Did you start the ERP process with the previous design?

Yes, we made a submittal with the residential design. We've withdrawn that submittal since then because it's not moving forward.

This will be a complete redo?

This will be a redo, yes.

With the lakes and other types of on-site storage?

Yes, so we would be required to meet all the South Florida Water Management District requirements, including water quality and attenuation from the site.

If I recall, during the petition... there was some concerns about water moving west and actually going down Sable Palm or impacting I would anticipate with this it would be far less intensive and be more conducive to continue with the natural flow which is pretty much from north to south is that pretty much your assessment that would be correct so the the water would historically drain north to south we would continue that historic drainage pattern with the golf course design

We're not anticipating water to adversely affect any of the neighbors. That's part of the water management requirements.

And then the impact on the Bellamede? There was concerns about whether that would impact the east somehow, the neighboring properties, the preservation areas to the east.

Correct. So according, like for the Bellmead portion of it, so our discharge rate would be based on the allowable rate, so it would be reducing the discharge rate, and our outfall would most likely be going either south or west, southwest of the property.

And any application that you proffer to the South Florida Water Management District is open for review by any of the public, is that correct? Yes, sir. Thank you. Anybody else have any questions?

none and i appreciate your you're bringing that up because those those issues came up at the neighborhood information meeting uh specifically you can see where the property is located um jd's job and the and the south florida water management district job is to make sure that whatever water is going through our site now is accounted for as we design our system and Basically, we build a bathtub, keep the water outside and discharge it at the appropriate rate. And you can see the distance between us and our nearest neighbor, which is Verona Walk. So we will have no negative impact on any of our neighbors with regard to potential flooding. And there's a permanent process to assure that where engineers review our engineers work. Any other questions for anybody on our team? I did want to kind of point out a little ironic fact about the panther and panther habitat. The project right there. was in primary Panther habitat. It was permitted, it was approved. I would compare that project to this project and say which is gonna be more friendly to the Panther. And I think it's obvious that the golf course is more friendly to the Panther as it exists today and as we go through that permitting process.

And so is the property to north, Hacienda Lakes. All of this is all preserved.

This is all preserved. So this isn't going to be opening up Pandora's box for further development. They're all in conservation easements. this is an isolated highly impacted piece of property where a property owner had expectations hopefully to farm but the other option was a residential development or a golf course or other uses that were taken away the property owner i think is being reasonable and responsible for asking for this golf course on this property and with that we hope you'll recommend approval to the port of county commissioners okay with that

I see no questions and I guess we'll open for staff report and then go to the public comment

Thank you chair Mike Bosie plan zoning director as the applicant had indicated is contained within the packet that's been provided to the Planning Commission staff is recommending approval of both the GMP as well as the PUD request just point out a couple things that wasn't included within the applicants presentation they are requesting two individual deviations so one's to reduce the internal street system from 60 feet to 50 feet as well as allow for no sidewalks to allow preserves to be located so that they're not interconnected staff is recommending approval of both of those deviations we do have a condition that we are asking for that Mike can you speak in your I'm sorry microphone bad so the public can hear you thank you we do have a condition that we are asking for that the interim utilities agreement is required to provide for interim utilities until they have their system up and running and the applicant

didn't address that within the uh the presentation but we are requesting that as a condition of approval and thank you mike utilities said if we ever extend utilities to this property you have to connect it's not planned to ever extend water and sewer to this property but if utilities ever does extend water and sewer to this property we will connect to the central water and sewer okay and that concludes uh staff's presentation any questions we will be happy to answer

None from commissioners? Anybody? All right, with that, we'll open it for public comment.

Mr. Chairman, we got about ten public speakers. First one is Brad Cornell.

Morning Mr. Chair and Commission members. I'm Brad Cornell. Morning Brad. Good morning. I'm here on behalf of Audubon Western Everglades and appreciate the opportunity to comment. There's been significant efforts since the last Planning Commission and the Board of County Commissioners hearings on this growth management plan amendment, which was continued at the Board of Commissioners meeting to today and to this process. Negotiations were hosted by Commissioner Lacastro with the developer, with Rich, with us, and the Conservancy. There was a consensus, as was reported, to encourage the landowner to apply to Conservation Collier to sell for restoration and preservation of the site. also audubon western everglades held discussions with two other possible acquisition prospects one of which also met with commissioner lacastro we're all waiting to learn as we heard today to what the status is of the conservation collier application the appraisal the offer and how that negotiation goes i want to just note that the um The NRPA, the natural resource protection area and sending land status for this property was designated back in 2003 when the rural fringe mixed use district was adopted by the county and it was very purposefully adopted to include this area and this is an important habitat area in the context of picayune strand and the conservation lands that surround it it's part of a mosaic agriculture has always been part of conservation in terms of water and wildlife habitat resources and all you have to do is look at the area of big cypress area of critical state concern in the eastern part of the county which is a big mix of cypress strands and sloughs and agriculture, pastures and fields and cattle ranches. And so I think this is a very similar sort of circumstance. More recently, Rich Yovanovitch approached Audubon Western Everglades to explore a possible golf course option. We negotiated with him and we proposed a suite of environmental golf strategies that could keep it consistent with the conservation purpose of the current rural fringe mixed use district, NRPA and sending land status. Those measures included significant percentage of preserves and also restoration protection of a regional flowway and wildlife corridors through the site. And I want to note too that citrus groves actually do function as habitat for a lot of species, including panthers and bears. I also want to point out that Audubon, speaking of the golf course, Audubon International has nothing to do with Audubon Western Everglades and nothing to do with National Audubon Society. These are two totally separate entities. Audubon International is a for-profit golf course driven company. And Audubon Western Everglades and National Audubon are conservation organizations. So Rich Yovanovitch, on behalf of his clients, declined all of our recommendations on the golf course and has added the 10 large homes and the clubhouse, where zoning would actually only allow four homes in a residential situation. Audubon Western Everglades therefore recommends denial of this golf course proposal and the comp plan amendment and the rezoning with the 10 luxury houses and the clubhouse. This is a wildfire prone region that requires hydrologic restoration of flowways and is surrounded by permanent conservation on all sides. That context really puts this as a conservation piece. So thank you very much for considering our recommendations.

Fred, I have one question. You mentioned you met with Mr. Yovanovitch asking for flowway and preserve areas and others. What was the impact on the

proposed design for the golf course is that going to impact dramatically i mean meaning the number reduce the number of golf holes available so i'm not a golf course designer and golf courses are not my specialty but we did discuss that and rich's response was that he didn't have enough acreage to accommodate the golf course plans that he was envisioning or his client was envisioning so he said there was not room for additional preserves for flow a restoration he said that it's it was going to require the entire 169 acres for their golf course project okay because typically a golf course

A tight golf course is 110 acres, which is tight. Typically 125 acres to 140 acres. Ideal is a little bit above that for a golf course. So when you ask for these type of, I would call it conditions, And I would have to ask the client, the assessment, would I think it would, in my estimation, significantly impact the ability to develop an 18-hole golf course.

So anyways, thanks. That very well may be, yes. Okay.

Mr. Chairman, next speaker is Jennifer Astling. She was ceded time by Arnold Bryce. Is Arnold Bryce here? All right, that's 10 minutes.

good morning thank you my name is Jennifer Asling it's nice to to be here I'm coming here because I'm sitting and I'm listening I've been to all of the meetings and I find it ironic that we sat here today and we said that we have all the experts in the room I happen to be an expert in the room because I've owned property on Brandy Lane for 32 34 years something of that nature the family that is before you have been family friends of mine for that amount of time their father actually passed away within months of mine and i don't bring that up because i know that you guys can't take that as accommodation but i do want you to understand that the comments that i make today come with a firm impact on my family their children and my nephews are our friends so i don't take what i need to say to you lightly today we have brought up that we can't bring up loopholes and things about housing developments because it's not accurate and i understand that that's for today that's probably not what goes on here and the impact for the environment while it's great for me because we bought acres 32 years ago out there to have an agricultural farm small five acres we're five generations now just like they are unfortunately We don't have the financial backing that they do, so we didn't develop as they did, which was fine. We wanted to see our neighbors grow. We wanted to see them help. When natural disasters came and such, it was them that we went to to help first. So to come here today to say any of this is absolutely heartbreaking for me. um we've brought up a couple of things today and i forgive me for having notes but some of stuff that i wanted to talk to you about you've asked us not to so i'm a little discombobulated in them the first thing i didn't want to address with you is ascending lands in 2002 when we were all notified of this there were multiple signs there were signs at the end of brandy lane which is on the gentleman's uh sign it was by the orange grove it was past the orange group any of the signs resulted to this have been at the orange rover past so some of these things we found out strictly from Notifications and I know that that's not relevant here But I do want you to understand that as a cancer patient trying to find information to fight. This has been difficult. I Went to the neighborhood meeting to honestly understand what we wanted because I do want them to be successful I want them to have the life that they're looking for but I do not want to give up my life or my children or my grandchildren's future in the area that we decided and The last fire that came through, we were specifically told by the fire marshals or the people in the battalions that were fighting by us that should that fire keep coming forward, they would protect Hacienda. Our load, our area, our ramp for 32 years was the land that needed to be evacuated. And I know you're not addressing that now, but I think it's something you should keep in mind. the thing that i do want to address is this nonsense that this is a family that has no resources or no income to go forward to the next part or that this land is not protected we have panthers on our land which is just across the street from them regularly we have multiple environmental things of that nature but i know that that doesn't do dollars and cents But here's the dollars and cents of it. 3.3 miles away from us is Naples Lakes Golf Course. It is also an Autobahn golf course. It is surrounded by homes. It is in the same watershed as ours. We already have water problems, which is noted by the fact that Tamarindo cannot be fully opened at this point, which developers in this room are also aware of. there are 21 courses that have been labeled for audubon courses in collier county the very first society for one was here and while they've been successful none of them have been behind a state park or near a state park or been in a residential facility if this development comes in or this how the non-housing development the golf course now comes in and it fails what happens to me my agricultural farm goes away because you have now decided that i'm not agricultural land because of someone else's needs not the needs of all the farms that are also on that land these are farmers that have farms in illinois they are farmers that have more land under jerry bear and i believe is how you pronounce it and forgive me i'm probably not saying the name right in florida this is not their sole property they do not live on this residence and in fact in march they purchased 300 table palm road for 200 over the asking price of that house which was not actually listed for sale under one of the owners of the orange grove and out of respect for them i will not say their name their lawyer can handle it if they so choose they also purchased in 2004 the easement rights to the church on Sable Farm Road, which is one property over from the Good Moon Ranch that just fought to be able to stay. It is incomprehensible to me that that does not factor into this when that is the opposite side of the road, and Mr. Yovanovitch represents both Hacienda and this developer. So while we may not be able to say to you legally that this is something you can preserve, I can guarantee you every one of us knows it. there are two lands on brandy lane currently for sale if those lands are purchased our area is completely connected and surrounded by hacienda in the 90s when this first came out mr yovanovitch and several other developers were trying to make multiple developments and it didn't come through But now we have the aisles at the end of Sable Palm just past the Citrus Grove and the State Park. Forgive me, my cancer's a little bad today. We have now Tamarindo up front that can't open because of the water. We have Verona Walk that opened, and since then our water has been an issue. there is no reason for us to be looking at this and going this is a standalone golf course there is something else going on and if you change our zoning our lives change these are not people that live here as much as i appreciate them as much as we've had 40 years 30 years of experience they don't live here They do not live on this land. When this land changes, they move on. They retire. Their kids go on. They whatever. My children don't. The farm and the lives that we created because our $100,000 a year doesn't rate your $300,000 just to get into a golf course. But that doesn't make my value or my land anything different i bought 32 years land go to live with animals to grow a farm to grow the bees that we have to have what we have my dad's ashes are permanently in this land that does not get trumped by the fact that there are eight members of the family that bought groves and brought land elsewhere and i know emotions don't mean anything and i'm trying really hard to keep them in but there's got to come a point where common sense starts talking and saying this is about greed and nothing more Because when you have acres in Illinois and you have other farms in Florida, you are not solely on what this 169 acres can do for you, like what my five and a half acres can do for me. I appreciate the fact that they all want to retire and they want to have money in their pockets. I want to feed my grandbaby that's about to born. I want to be able to teach my kids like my father taught me or my mother taught me. And we did it where there wasn't your developments and there wasn't your golf courses and there wasn't my rights inflicting on yours. in 2002 came out as much as i don't know if this is admissible and i'm very sorry if it's not we sat with bobby we sat with their dad which is the owners of this and we said what do we do we're a community what do we do all of us sat there and we were we're going to fight this we're going to fight this i've sat for the last two months reading documents about how while we sat with them they were purchasing and selling things that had the complete opposite of it so i'm sitting here bewildered because none of that matters in a legal situation And the legal situation to come to you, all I can say to you is that my 5.5 acres might not be worth the $2 million that they want for this land, but the reason they're not receiving public offers might also have something to do with the fact that it's not publicly listed for sale. There is no public listing to where you can go, hey, this 169 acres of land is wanting to be sold. We want to be done. This is what we want, $20 million, $30 million, $5 million, whatever their golden number is. All that has been said is that Conservation Collier is going to make them an offer they don't think that they're going to accept. What is the base number? What do they want? Where in black and white is it what they want? That that land, in and of itself, before we develop it, before we do anything, because it was them, us, and several other neighbors that paved those roads, that made those roads. What gives that land the right to take our land away or our values away? And where did that change? Because if you look at the seven-hour meeting, and I know I should have the times, and I did at one point, Mr. Jacobs here sat here and said they were making too much money to deal with it. i'm so sorry that that was a problem but this is my life this is the lives of all the people around that have said there and i i'm flabbergasted that the only thing that we're here talking about is whether or not a variance can go through for changing a zone that was made to be conservation around for a reason we have a state park there for a reason there are animals there there are preserves there and if we develop a golf course on that side and the runoffs are and all of the impacts that go around that we're blowing off so well, what happens? What happens to my farm? What happens to Sanderson's farm that's down the road or Big Lake Farms that's down the road? Where are those people? Where are the people that are our area's expertise? Because I've heard all of you say at some variance you've either read something from this, a couple of you said you've spoken with Mr. Yovanovitch, you've spoken with the areas. I've lived there 32 years. I don't know any of you. No one's talked to us. so my sincere request is that for once you guys look at this and say hey if this was my land i wouldn't want this i wouldn't have wanted to invest 30 years of my life to have someone else come in and say hey i want to make more money and retire because there's eight of us when we have farms elsewhere he just and we can purchase lands for two hundred thousand dollars over what their value is without them being listed just so that nancy's not sitting in the room or she has happy or whatever i could come up with 100 reasons and none of them are valid the dollars and cents is there are deals going on that are in our collier county public records that are in our collier county things that show this is happening so to stand alone and look at this as a sole 169 acres is a huge disservice to the seven eight people that call home i'm brandy lane and all of the neighbors around it Mr. Yovanovitch has been involved in most of our major projects out here. And while for us that makes him a boogeyman for some of us because he's been at these and trying to take our lands away, the point of the matter is he's a gentleman who wants to make money. And while I appreciate that, I don't want him to make money off of us. They can develop that land into 100 different things that would make people have places to live and houses. Can I ask you to wrap up, please? Yes, sir. And my closing is just simply this. I have worked 30 years to make this. They have opportunities. They have life. They have whatever. That doesn't mean that ours goes away. And the fact that you were making money in 2002 doesn't take away the right to come in here and fight for this to be changed, which Mr. Ivanovich fought himself to not have happen. And it was denied, not for them, but through haciendas and all the other stuff, because I've seen him around through that. It shouldn't take away our rights as landowners because they want to make more money than what four houses on 169 acres can do. So that's my point. Sorry.

Paul, you have a comment?

I have a question for you. Absolutely. So sorry.

No thank you very much for your testimony I thought I heard you say that when the land was designated as ascending land they were aware of it Yes sir they were yes sir we had notices on the end of on five different places They knew that it was being

yes sir and i i i apologize because i did pull up the records for it but having my my stuff i was not able to submit it on time to show your own records of that but there were signs at the end of braden lane on sable palm there were signs past the citrus grove on sable palm and there i was listening to was that you said you had conversations we did yes sir we had multiple about it yes they knew about it that they had seen the signs yes sir they did thank you you're welcome michelle jennifer what do you farm right now we have bees wildflowers and honey we originally wanted to go into the land because we have horticulture we have built some ponds and such at one point in time we used to help with fire out there we have pulled stuff not just because of this but also because of of cancer but we were told that we can't move forward until this is resolved because it is an agricultural business so That's my concern.

I'm trying to understand how this property affects your farm.

Well, because we are on the opposite. So if you change the zoning for this area from sending protected lands, part of what feeds our bees is the state preserve behind that. Part of what feeds the wildlife that comes out that people blocks brandy and sable palm for are all the various birds. And I'm sorry, I'm not good at the names and maybe Brad or someone else from the wildlife can all of the nature photographers that shut down the roads for these animals to come out. you change that those animals move and it changes what impacts on our land it changes the water flow that comes from our land as much as we're saying it's not going to change it's the stuff that's in it that will be affected the traffic is not going to stop on our road at night when the orange grove closes because if there are guest houses there are people coming and going you're not going to turn around and lock them in the gate and say you're not allowed to leave You have no control over what happens in these areas. So while it's great that we can say that bears and panthers can come out and play on the land, what happens the first time there's a person outside or a bear knocks over a trash can? So all of those things changing it affects my land because those animals are protected and those animals feed my land and they feed off of my land and they invest in the land just like a big circle would.

And one other question. Yes, ma'am. You had mentioned a concern about water. What is your concern about water?

Sure. So one of the first concerns is what's going into the water when we have the chemicals that go into the golf courses and such. The other problem is we already flood. We have a huge problem with flooding. Since Tamarindo has come in, since the other developments have come in, that has changed our water flow drastically. we have an aqua ford well on or not aqua ford aqua ford pond on our our property that has 90 been dry this this last two years since we've been doing the development in the back to fix the state park and things like that that will just continue the more that we disrupt the more that we go through we have you know this the all the developings and everything that pulls you you pull animals away you pull all of the resources that go away we're a two lanes road that was paved with a farm truck and machinery. I mean it's not, we're not talking downtown Golden Gate or things like that. So all of the little things have very big impacts on the animal life and the farm's life around it. We have a horse farm directly across the street from us. So you start adding more trucks in or if you work with this easement that they've purchased through the church, that church is directly on that horse farm. So they're not separate issues for us. I don't understand legality for you and how it has to be. All of those are connected because if you start going through the church, there goes the forces. There goes this. And I know that that's a domino, so it's not probably something you can go into here. But it is all something that's factorization. So it is something that I think needs to be made aware of.

Okay, thank you.

Next speaker, please. Next speaker is Allie Delventhal, please.

Good morning. Allie Delventhal. I live in Barona Walk and thank you for allowing us to speak. My concern is the rezoning from the rural fringe to more density usage of the land with the cottages. I'm also concerned that the details of the cottages have not been put forth and I understand that they can't go into that until they are approved. and they can't go into the golf course design until they're approved because of the expense. But it worries me that this is not, for your approval, this is not explained. I am also concerned when they ally themselves with the Audubon International that whole Audubon International thing, which is funded by the golf courses themselves, by the golf community, putting their, trying to, I mean, it's kind of a, a back, I don't know, kind of ingenuous to try to ally yourself with a organization that's a conservation organization with very good reputation. My other concern is that their conservation study showed that there were no panthers when they were doing the study, but as you may be aware, panthers are not always around, but they are around sometimes. they're saying that this land is still good for the panthers and while it may be better than the 423 homes the chemicals and the the outlie of the land is not as good as just native land and also one of the biggest reasons that panthers die in this area is traffic accidents And there will be traffic, just as the previous speaker mentioned, there will be traffic on Sable Palm at night, which is when the panthers are usually out, much more so than there were when the orchard was there. So with all these concerns, I hope you take them into consideration before making your decision. Thank you.

Thank you. Next speaker, please. Next speaker. Oh, sorry. May I have a question?

Ali, I have a question for you. So you live in Verona, Milwaukee? I do. I struggle with someone from a development that was also considered environmentally sensitive to speak out against this kind of a property.

verona walk was already there when we bought our house if it hadn't been there i would have lived somewhere else and i think that looking back is is not as helpful as looking forward verona walk is there right or wrong it's there and i was you know i've been an owner for quite a while but not at the when verona walk was approved that's already there now we have to look forward and the the real concern i have is this the precedent of changing the designation the zoning designation of this land because that sets a precedent for other lands in collier county and there have been so much building and especially around our area it's just blossomed and i know that that land was zoned for the use that it's being built upon but we have to look forward not backward and it's what's there is there and the increase in building along collier county is just unbelievable you said you visited the place so you can see it that was all woods all everything was woods so please yeah i'm a native of this area all of that was right your property absolutely and verona walk is there already We can't go back and change that. Was that a mistake? It could have been, and I would have lived somewhere else. I obviously wouldn't have lived there. But now please look forward to changing designations. The overgrowth is so amazing now and so critical that to take that one step forward and change the designation of the land to allow more density I just think is a bad precedent, and then others will follow, and so there will be no more open land.

thank you thank you next speaker please next speaker julianne thomas

Good morning. My name is Julianne Thomas. I'm here on behalf of the Conservancy of Southwest Florida. The Conservancy has a long history in protecting the lands within and around the Picayune Strand State Forest, and we must object to the proposed amendment. The subject property is on the western side of the Picayune Strand State Forest and is surrounded by preserve and mitigation lands. In fact, this parcel has been identified as a forest out parcel and has been identified by the state's Florida Forever program as an essential parcel. This parcel would be better suited for either inclusion as conserved public lands and restored or to participate in the rfmu program selling its sending land credits consistent with the transfer of development rights program for the area this land is this This land is a sensitive habitat in an important location. That's why it was designated sending lands. The overlay has been relatively successful because landowners who want to intensify must do so on receiving lands and get their additional density. They must secure TDRs from sending lands. If all of a sudden new sub-districts can remove property from the overlay, this undermines the very foundation of the program and could jeopardize future participation in the overlay. Collier County's TDR program is a proven tool for guiding smart growth while conserving rural lands. Policy 1.4 of the Future Land Use Element states that the purpose of the Future Land Use Element is to coordinate land use with the natural environment and discourage urban sprawl. Golf courses may be green, however, the type of green found with golf courses is different than the green sought to be protected by the RFMU sending lands. Golf courses are essentially monocultures often using non-native turf grasses. Their construction and maintenance require pesticides, heavy metals, and frequent water misuse. Taking the parcel out of the overlay in order to build a private golf course contains no public benefit to Collier County or the overlay and does not discourage urban sprawl. The Conservancy believes that one of the most important functions of the Planning Commission is to uphold the integrity of the comprehensive plan. Therefore, we ask that you recommend denial of this application as not being in the best interest of Collier County. Finally, I'd like to speak to the confusion about what's going on on the property. I understand what that application you're reviewing is. However, I also know that this application there are there are other applications for the property that are on that are being processed by the county in may the applicant we requested a zoning verification for the live local act that was denied and they're appealing that decision so that is one reason why why we're concerned the second reason we're concerned is because on on page eight of the staff report The following two sentences contain are contained. The proposed change is not necessary, but is requested in compliance with the LDC provisions to seek changes. The petitioner believes rezoning is necessary for the purpose of constructing a residential subdivision. I don't know why that's in the staff report, but if there's no residential subdivision being contemplated, I think that that should be clear in the staff report and in the materials. um so again we are rec we are asking that you recommend denial to the board and and that um because recommending approval for a private golf course with 10 residential cabins is not in the best interest of collier county thank you

Miss Thompson for the record you were speaking in your capacity as working for conservation or for the Conservancy of Southwest Florida yes okay thank you for the record yes all right and again your question about housing this has nothing to do with housing it was it strictly is zoning I understand that but I don't understand why the staff report talks about a residential subdivision if that's not part of what's being considered I would have to ask staff to answer that but I would attribute that to an error because of the what was withdrawn the previous petition in regards to live local we have nothing to do with live local if you have an issue with live local that's between you and the state we don't yeah okay thank you Mike you want to comment

and I'm looking at it the speaker is correct it incorrectly refers to the residential subdivision the staff report is for the specifically for a golf course with 10 transient cottage units that was a may have been a leftover that we didn't catch but that's all it was a sentence from the previous yes staff report so this is again nothing to do with any residential next speaker please next speaker Carol Fludos

Carol's passing. Next speaker, Gwen Ransone.

Good morning. My name is Gwen. I live in Verona Walk and my house is on the other side of Sable Palm. I can hear all the traffic. I can hear cars, trucks, anything that goes by. There is not a need or a demand for a golf course on Sable Palm Road. There are 90 golf clubs in Naples and 21 are private. 14 are less than five miles from Sable Palm. This road is a two-lane street that is not conducive to handling traffic. They state there will not be heavy traffic. How so? There will be hundreds of members, guests, employees, and vendors driving on Sable Palm. This project will increase pollution and noise levels with cars, commercial trucks and around 850 people. These are all negative effects. Our area already has issues with outages and low water pressure without hurricane interruptions. I'm asking you please to vote no. I live there. I can tell you how peaceful and safe it is, how clean the air is when enjoying the outdoors. Please do not take our good quality of life away from us or the wildlife. Most of the residents are veterans or come from a military family like myself. We deserve a nice neighborhood. Once the land is rezoned, there is no turning back. Leave it as agricultural land. It is rare and not much of it exists in Naples. The property was never publicly listed for sale. It has been handled as a private arrangement with one developer. The same developer who previously sought to rezone this land for 423 homes, a proposal that did not move forward after strong public opposition. The same developer has also submitted a Live Local Act zone and verification letter claiming this property qualifies for multifamily housing. The county determined it does not qualify, and the developer also appealed that decision. Even while telling residents at the June neighborhood information meeting that they were only pursuing a golf course. That inconsistency raises real concerns about was actually planned for this site long term. A question I'd like to ask in that maybe you can ask them. How many members are going to be? Allowed for this. Golf club. So they just were not getting the number. So I think that's a really good question to ask the developer. Thank you for your time.

Thank you. I'll leave that to Mr. Yovanovitch. He can answer that. At the conclusion, I mean, typically golf courses, private courses are maybe 250 members or less. You get to around 350 or more, it's typically people do not join the club at that because they want a tee times, but I'll ask Rich to join. I can state that because I'm a member of a golf course. I know typically what those are. Anyways, next speaker, please.

Next speaker, Fred Miller.

Good morning, I'm Fred Miller Naples resident also Verona walk Commissioner Schmidt and members of the Commission I wrote a letter to the County Board of Commissioners and I'd like to kind of Read that if you don't mind, that's fine I'm a Naples resident, year-round, living in East Naples for the past 11 years. I'm writing to express my deep concern regarding the proposed rezoning of Sable Palm Citrus Grove. A little bit about myself. My background includes training in ecology, population biology, environmental physiology, and evolutionary biology. I have a master's degree in environmental biology, which was awarded in part following research I completed with land reclamation of severely damaged environmental lands. I'm opposed to the proposal of rezoning Sable Palm Citrus Grove. The main reason is simply that it would negatively impact Florida's natural environment. Loss of critical habitat and corridors that provide wildlife species places to live and safely move about would suffer irreparable damage and harm. The highly endangered Florida panther is one example that should be considered. I've lived in South Florida 17 of the last 28 years of my life, and I've never witnessed anything like the development situation that's occurred here in Naples over the last few years. That includes when I lived the other years outside of this area. I respectfully ask you and your college to take a moment and pause and reflect on what this means to our natural environment, the wildlife, and Florida's future. And then I just went on to ask them to please confirm the time and location of this meeting. I'm still waiting to hear back from them about that. Thank you very much.

How many more speakers do we have? There's about three and none online. Three speakers and none online.

All right, we'll get through with this. Are you okay, Terry? We'll do the three speakers and then we'll break. Next speaker, please.

Next speaker, Michaela Kendall, please.

Hello. My name is Michaela Kendall and I'm here to ask you to deny today's petition. I have lived in Collier County my entire life and one of my earliest memories is actually waking up in the mornings to go for a drive to go through and look through the orange groves to see if we could see any deer. So to say that groves in any sense of the way are not environmentally sensitive, I think is lacking. And I do have just a lot of things, but I'm going to try and keep it concise. The zoning verification letter has been mentioned, and I am deeply concerned by it. I understand that the Live Local Act is a state issue and something kind of separate from what we're dealing with here today. But to say that there is not... Reasonable to have concern that there could be future development if today's petitions were approved by the Board of Commissioners, I think, again, would also be lacking, especially when this is something that we have seen in a different way before if we wanted to consider Fiddler's Creek, for example, when there was that controversial rezoning of Section 29, I think it was. This is something we have seen in the community before. And I think to remove the sending lands designation would create a very, a precedent that we don't need. In this, I've been doing a lot of research on the rural fringe mixed use and how it came to be. Funny enough, that was all coming together when I was just born, you know, 25 years in the making, right? And it was put into place specifically so that my generation and future generations would still have something left of Florida, of the Picayune strand, of panthers, and that panther population continues to dwindle and dwindle. i forget what number we're at now because i know they have a list on the website that tracks the deaths of every panther that they have chipped or whatever but it's a concern so again to say that there's not potential for the owners to come back and ask for future amendments again i know that's not on the table today but it's a possibility and again the rural fringe mixed use was put into place specifically to prevent this it was meant to act as a buffer to stop urban sprawl. Now, again, I know we're talking about a golf course, and I can get into that. In your land development code, yes, it does reference the Audubon Cooperation. There's so many... entities i get a little confused but it is distinctly different from the audubon um society there's actually been lawsuits in the past because of the confusion audubon had a society had to put out a statement on their website back i think it was 2015 but i could be mistaken on that specifically stating we are not part of audubon international and audubon corporation. That is an entity that is funded by golf course communities and such. And how to get the Audubon Gold standard in part is actually just a subscription. They pay a certain amount of money and then they get a standard attached to it. You know, they get a little label. But it really doesn't mean much to me from the research I've done. I've seen nothing on their actual management practices. Again, what pesticides are they using? How much fungicide are they using? What kind of fertilizer are they using? The water use permit that that property has, very important, right? Like you said, not something you can get anymore. And I understand that because my grandpa has a property here in Collier County. He's been working in agriculture his entire life. He doesn't do oranges anymore, obviously, because of the citrus greening. But mangoes, on the other hand, grow very well here in Florida. Might be something to consider. Agriculture property is so important and something that we need to keep in our community. But there's very little of it left. And not a lot of people that want to continue that work. It is hard work. But I think it's very important that this property remains its current designation. It is sending lands. It is sensitive. And you could argue that it should be neutral, but I just don't see that being a case, and I don't think that they've made a great case for it either. I'm also I just wish that the applicant would show us a little bit more give us a little bit more on what they're actually planning on doing you know the littorals for the retention pond you know what's going on there there's just nothing they're really giving us nothing and I need more than just promises because Truthfully, I can't trust the developers. They say that they're going to do one thing. Again, Fiddler Creek, for example. Oh, this is going to be a preserve. It was a preserve for 20-some years. Well, now it's going to be affordable housing. we're told at a meeting neighborhood information meeting this is just a golf course there's no residential involved at all but in the behind the scenes there's a verification a zoning verification letter in the progress asking if the live local act applies to this piece of property again county decided no it does not because of the sending land designation okay can i ask you to wrap up please you're over five minutes okay sorry the clock's not working um My final statements, this petition would fundamentally change the Collier County policy for one property without adequately demonstrating that doing so serves the public interest or protects the surrounding natural resources and neighboring communities. That is all.

Thank you. Next speaker.

Last speaker is Christine Briggs.

Before my time begins, commissioners, I'd like a clarification. It is my understanding from everything I've read that in order for the golf course to go forward, the designation of the land must be changed from sending agriculture to receiving residential. Is that correct?

No.

So it's going to remain sending agricultural or is there some other nebulous world that I don't know about?

There's two petitions before us. One is to redesignate under the growth management plan amendment as a special district. So it's designated as a special district to be designated as a future golf course. That's what it will be.

How does that relate to the designation of land as sending agricultural versus residential receiving?

It just overrides it it becomes eligible to be developed as a golf course under the growth management plan and then the second petition is a is a petition for public before for a

Go ahead, Mike. The first request is a growth management plan to take it out of the sending designation and create its own subdistrict, and that subdistrict specifies that it's going to be designated a golf course. And then the second petition is a community facility plan unit development, and that changes the zoning from rural fringe mixed use sending to specifically a PUD of a community facility for a golf course.

so there's two different changes that are being requested one within the zoning atlas and one within the future land use map so is the second item on the agenda related to what you just mentioned at the end there are two items yes there's two items on the agenda okay how much i'm sorry one more question Oh, once we have the new designation, what is necessary to let's say the golf course falls through and they want to make it residential?

They can't. It's a golf course. It'll be designated as a golf course. so we come back in and go through rezoning ah but they they could maybe then have it rezoned as residential no there's no maybe they would have to come in and go through the public hearing process and go through a rezoning through the planning commission and the board of county commissioners go through the entire process over again

I don't know and I think what her question is after if it would be approved to the special district for a golf course as well as to the community facility PUD if that golf course wasn't able to survive and became defunct would the property owner or a future property owner be able to change that designation through this same process and the answer to that is yes they would they'd have to go through the public hearing process again

And probably easier, right? Okay, thank you for letting me ask the questions. If I can ask you also to have some discretion to make my comments. Why do I hope that you remain neutral on this and pass on it? Don't approve it. Just pass. Because then you'll be consistent with what you did in October of 2025, okay, when you did not approve the change. But also, if you approve this, the repercussions are many. If you approve this today, you might as well just gut the application by Conservation Collier. because frankly they're not going to be able to offer anything in the ballpark as what this developer is going to offer because right now conservation collier is limited by the prescriptions that the appraisal has to be less than the appraisals of property and it has to be an appraisal for sending agricultural not a golf course So if there's another item on the table which is going to offer the buyers much more income, Of course, they're not even gonna consider conservation, Collier. If you remain neutral, and that's the strongest argument I'm gonna make because you guys are the planning committee. You are not the economic and housing and economic development committee. You are the planning committee. And we are in a challenging time politically for the governor's race and other races in Florida. And what's the biggest objection that I often hear to conservatives is they don't care about the environment. So if you remain neutral and don't support it, you help the cause, the larger cause. Also, I'm sorry, I am not too sympathetic to the two remaining owners who live here. and the three that are in Illinois. I am someone who has patronized that citrus orchard. I have personally spent over $1,000 sending oranges to relatives at Christmas. In the last 10 years, I've lived here full time.

Can I ask you to wrap up, please? Sure.

If you build more houses, you're going to cut the value of the homes of the present residents that live here. And a golf course for 300 people who are on a wait list to make over 300,000, are you going to really align yourself with those people versus the common people? And my last point is people have said we need to do something. Well, we did. We reached out. We made sure it didn't get passed. We filled the room when it went to the commissioner's place. And now I am going to start the equivalent of a GoFundMe to raise money to help Conservation Collier purchase this. And if we don't make enough, I am going to make sure that it's indicated that all the money goes to the Audubon Society. And frankly, why do I think there might be lies?

Ma'am, please, we're not here to make political statements nor a political speech. Thank you very much for your time. Okay.

Sorry if it seemed political.

Yes, ma'am. Thank you.

No further speakers.

All right with that we'll take a fifteen minute break So we will convene at I'll say ten fifty

Thank you. Thank you. We'll be right back. She was an American

Thank you.

Baby, all I need is one more chance One, two All I need All I want All I need Oh, baby, I will come to let you know I need one more chance. I tell you that I love you.

Because lately you've been starting to lose. Losing out on everything you might try to do. Bad luck fell, it's got to hold on you. Losing money's about to lose your home. Done lost your woman and everything you own. Love, I mean, plainly states that chances go around. But if you want to know the truth about it, I'll tell you what's brought you down.

Say the number, call me.

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I sat down on my damn roof. Open it up.

Open it up. Open it up. Yes, sir. Sir, the president of the United States, the man said he wasn't going to give it up.

He did resign, y'all. But he still turned around and left all us poor folks behind. They say they got another man taking place, but I don't think that he decided by the human. Good luck. Help me, Jesus.

Thank you.

Give me, give me, give me a man at the midnight Take me through the darkness to the break of the day Give me a man at the midnight Want somebody to help me change the shadows away Give me, give me, give me a man at the midnight Take me through the darkness to the break of the day Give me, give me, give me a man at the midnight Give me, give me, give me a man at the midnight

Chair, you have a live mic.

Yeah, if we could please take your seats. I think it's, here comes Chuck, so. We're coming, Paul's coming, they're here. All right, with that, we have, just to make sure again, we have any other public speakers before we open, we close the public hearing, or at least close the public comment?

There are no other public speakers.

And no one online.

No one online.

All right, thank you. So I would turn it over to Mr. Yovanovitch for any closing comments or rebuttals, if you would please. If you could please cover.

I'll try to cover everything that I heard.

All right, thank you. And if you're not, I'll ask the question.

I'm going to start with the comments from Brad. We did have a conversation and he did ask for quite a bit related to the golf course. And I explained to him that that would result in a nine hole golf course. And there's no market for a high end private nine hole golf course. We're not building 10 luxury homes. We're not building 10 luxury homes. We are building 10 transient cottages for our members to come and visit and bring their guests or covers a group of members to play golf. That is not an unusual thing for these types of golf courses. And if you think about it, it actually reduces traffic because they're staying at the course and not coming back and forth to come play at the golf course.

And just to be clear, these are... Cottages or cabins or whatever you want to call them strictly for the members the members in their guests I can't go on VRBO or somebody and if you're a member you can okay, I don't think it's gonna be on VRBO I think you're gonna be taking care of that through the membership services I would guess that the membership for this will be little above my pay grade, but maybe in yours I've already said early on under oath. I can't afford it. I wish I could I

Now, the number of members is going to be between 250 and 275. That's what these golf courses, because most of them don't even have tee times. You go.

You go play. What does Naples National, which is close, they're about 250, I think.

I have no idea. 265, according to Tim. Yeah, okay, that's what I thought. And remember, they're not all there at once. Now there will be some events that are more popular than others. You have your member guest, you have your member member. There are some tournaments that do occur where you have more play than on your typical day at these high-end golf courses. i'm trying to be careful on how i address uh the second speed code um i would love to see a picture of any sign indicating that the county posted signs about the royal french mixed use district growth management plan process you were around mr schmidt i was around i don't remember seeing a single sign posting that we're going through this process especially not down stable palm road But if there were signs, I'd love to see a picture. And I'm sure the county would have pictures. We take pictures of the signs we post, but I don't believe there were any signs posted that we were going through the rural French mixed-use district process. I confirmed with the current property owners They don't actually know who she is, nor do they recall any conversations related to the rural fringe mixed use process. I'm not saying she didn't have conversations, but we don't believe it was about this process. There will be no impact on anybody's water pressure. We're not on the water system. We're going to be on our well and septic. As far as traffic back and forth at night, Golf isn't played at night. Golf is a daytime, daylight sport. This is going to be a course that has, it's a golf club. It's not a country club. I'm not asking for a swimming pool. I'm not asking for tennis courts. I'm not asking for anything that's going to happen at night. Ma'am, for the peanut gallery, I want to explain what the process is. I'm asking for a growth management plan amendment that specifically says what my uses are. And those uses are not included in what I'm asking for. For me to change it, I got to go through this process all over again if I want to add a tennis court. i got to get four out of five commissioners to say yes so for people to sit there and say yet they don't understand the process i don't expect them to understand the process but i also don't expect them to be commenting while i have the microphone i didn't say a word during theirs i would appreciate some courtesy from the audience and i'm sorry i reacted the way i did but it's not right and mr chairman if you could please ask the audience i will stop making comments

I think you've done that they clearly understand and if need to I'll vacate the room because this is a public hearing this is the time for the petitioner to rebut to the hour and a half or so period of public comments so please continue Mr. Yvonne The person who's talking about and also to the second speaker we're not touching her zoning

We're not touching anybody's zoning in this area except for this 169-acre parcel. We're not taking any of their agricultural rights away, any of the uses they currently enjoy on their property. We're asking on this 169-acre site to have a golf course. That's the only use in this petition is a golf course. To change it requires to go through this whole process again. And if anybody remembers what happened when we asked for residential, how did that turn out for us didn't turn out too well did it so my guess is if we come back again and ask for residential probably not going to turn out too well for us again so that tactic of we're leading to residential i do want to address the live local act because we did file a zoning verification letter under the live local act that's what a good competent lawyer would do Because under the Live Local Act, there's a definition of commercial. And the definition of commercial is any business that is for profit. Very broad. As Plan B, we wanted to preserve our right to possibly go under the Live Local Act to develop the properties. Plan A is the golf course. If we're denied the golf course, we preserved our rights by applying for the zoning verification letter, which we're required to do under the Live Local Act process. We got an answer we didn't agree with. We were required to appeal that to the Board of County Commissioners. That appeal's not being heard because we're hopeful that we're gonna get the golf course approved. If we don't get the golf course approved, we'll go through the process and we'll have a judge decide whether we're right that the live local act does apply to the current property or it doesn't we don't want to go there but we had to make that submittal to preserve our rights under the live local act so did we apply for that absolutely we did and that's our plan b now um approving this property is not a precedent for any other property going through the process We're not destroying the sending land concept. We're not destroying the rural French mixed-use district concept. Somebody else may come in and ask if they've got a farm in the middle of the area, and they'll go through whatever process they go through. But approving this one doesn't mean you have to approve any other growth management plan amendment or rezone. The bottom line is this. First of all, Transactions like this, you don't post on MLS. You don't post 169 acre parcel for sale. It's a limited universe of people that approach property owners that have size to where they want to do developments. That's what my client did. There has been ample notification in the paper We were told we were going to get offers. People knew that they could bring an offer and the property owner and my client would consider that offer. We've received zero offers. Zero. So for somebody to get there and say nobody knew this property was receiving offers, Brad Cornell knew. The Conservancy knew. None. No offers. I do want I'm going through my notes to see if I addressed what I think is the comments. For someone to get up here and say, hey, please deny this so you can artificially keep the price low. You know, that's not how America works. You know, the conservation county program is not here to steal somebody's property. It's a voluntary program. We, in good faith, submitted and said, make us an offer. Let's see what the number is. We may or we may not take it. But to say to someone, please deny this so that the value of the property is undervalued, that's just not right. I want to bring Tim Hall up here to talk about the fire issue, the flooding issue. I think that's beyond my expertise to talk about, but I would like him to address the comments regarding fire and flooding.

Good morning again for the record, Tim Hall with Terrell Hall and Associates. I heard a couple of the speakers mention, you know, concerns related to an increase in fire hazard as a result of the project, as well as an increase in flooding resulting from the project. And I guess I'll address them. independently from the fire standpoint the the way that the the golf course is going to be created and all i mean it's it's a block that's kind of separated from the natural woods and all now as it is and so the changing from the orange trees to turf is not going to increase the likelihood of any fire moving through the the through the area And, you know, it actually will act as a fire break on depending on which way the fire is moving through that through that area. So the likelihood of it increasing the likelihood of a fire in that area is just not a valid concern in my opinion. And with the result to flooding, the way the agricultural operations work and with the orange groves in particular, the trees don't like to be wet. They need to be kept dry. the the site has berms that go all the way around it there's no water from off-site that flows onto this property it's a water table driven when they need irrigation they pump water into the into the ditches or or through drip irrigation where they have that set up when it rains and they need to get water off it's a pumped system where they start up these pumps they pump the water the ditches bring the water through the property around and it's thrown off of the property into the adjacent that causes some issues in the areas downstream. It's called flashiness where you get a big plug of water coming through because they're turning these pumps on and they're pumping as much water as they can out of the property as fast as they can to help protect the trees, keep them from getting damaged by high water for extended periods of time. Under the new stormwater management plan that would be put in place with the golf course, it becomes more of a natural outfall where there's a limited amount of water that would be allowed to leave the site. So in terms of the benefits to the downstream waters and how that water gets to them, it'll be better in the golf course condition than it is now because it's gonna be a more controlled outfall. It also has the ability that the golf course can store more water on the site because as you heard with the limited turf areas and the natural areas there'll be much more places on the site where water could be allowed to sit and stay for longer periods of time before it leaves the site or just before it um it goes down through the ground into you know into the aquifer underneath so in terms of of water and flooding the post condition with the golf course will will be better than it is in the current condition

I think we hit the major points that were made by the public speakers. We're, myself and our entire team is here to answer any further questions you may have. Again, your staff is recommending approval of both petitions. I think we've done what we were requested to do by the Board of County Commissioners, come up with a less intensive use on the property. That fits in with the environment, and we request that you all forward both petitions to the Board of County Commissioners with a recommendation of approval in your capacity as the Planning Commission and in your capacity as the EAC.

All right, I have one further question. I'd like for Tim, if I could ask him again. Tim, just for the record, your professional qualifications, if you could state for the record.

I'm a senior wildlife ecologist for Terrell Hall and Associates and vice president. My degrees are in wildlife ecology from the University of Florida. I have a bachelor's degree in wildlife ecology through the forest resources and conservation and a master's degree in wetland ecology.

Okay, thank you. Based on your professional assessment, this is a golf course. And it's from a standpoint of impact on neighboring properties. And we've heard a lot of concerns about the impact, potential detrimental impact, maybe to the lands to the east, specifically the Bellamede for wildlife. What impact, if this is predominantly golf course, which I figured out of the 169 acres, at least 130 acres is going to be open, golf course, or preserved. In your professional opinion, how does that integrate with the neighboring property as far as wildlife habitat? It's going to have somewhat of an impact, but what's your assessment as far as the impact that it may have on the neighboring properties? Because that's what's going to be evaluated when you go as you know, for your Army Corps permit. And for those folks in the audience, you go through a Section 404 of the Clean Water Act that goes out through consultation. Tim then has to deal with U.S. Fish and Wildlife, marine fisheries, and others. So, Tim, if you could please give your professional assessment, because you're going to be doing the biological assessment, on how this may impact, whether it adversely or does blend in with the neighboring property. Go ahead, please.

There will be a conversion from the grove to the golf course. So there will be an impact associated with the initial construction. The trees get removed, the site gets cleared, gets contoured, gets replanted. But then over time, as the golf course ages and the vegetation that they plant in all of the buffer zones and all of that matures, then you create a lot of edge habitat. So the types of species that will end up using the property in the long term are very similar to the ones that use it now. But because of that impact associated with the conversion and the day use with the golf course and so forth, the Fish and Wildlife Service will consider that more of an impact with the golf course than with the grove. but the mitigation that's provided for that is usually like the purchase of credits from the conservation banks, the PHU credits for the Panthers. Those banks are set up in areas that are high priority zones for the panther so you're taking impacts in an area that is on the periphery you know this is right next to 951 and also the periphery of panther habitat and you're funding through the purchase of those credits improvements to habitat that are more in the central or important dispersal areas for the panther so they look at those those trade-offs with respect to how the property is developed. With other properties like the bonneted bats and all, they like to forage over those open areas. The golf course will actually create foraging habitat for the bonneted bats or it won't adversely impact it. But again, that's kind of a longer term view when that when the conversion happens you have nothing there for a while until it starts growing in so those temporary impacts are are really some of the things that the um that the agencies look at in addition to any long-term things and all of that gets reviewed and accounted for in the in the reviews with the both fwc with the state and fish and wildlife service with the under the federal programs.

Typically something like this would be likely to affect but not adversely impact.

Correct. They would look at it as not likely to adversely affect, which is a determination that then allows projects to move forward. Okay.

And then as far as the application process, that's fully open to the public. The public can comment and submit any type of application. I know Brad knows that as well.

The state application and all of that is fully open to the public. You can go onto the portal and see anything that gets submitted. The federal process is a little bit more cumbersome. You have to call them and specifically ask them to provide the information to you. website all open to the public and the portal as I understand so it's it's not all not everything that gets submitted it's only documents that are kind of finalized that get that get put in there the application will be on there and then agency comments and and responses some of that stuff my understanding is it doesn't get put in until those issues are resolved typically the commenting

Agencies comment back to the Corps and there will be a point of contact that the Army Corps of Engineers typically in this case of the Fort Meyer office Fort Myers office if anybody wants to Access or get in touch with the the program manager who would be reviewing this correct?

That's correct. Yeah, and and that system you're talking about the RRS system is open to anybody, but you have to Sign on and have like their it's login gov You actually have to open a government account to be able to have access

Okay, thanks. Michelle.

This is a question for Rich. Rich, this is a question that really doesn't pertain to this request, but there was mention that the current owners have purchased the church property that's down the street, which is a large parcel. And just to get like a potential look at this area in the future.

No, they did not purchase the church property. What they did as part of the residential project they acquired a road and utility easement from the church that also was dedicated to the public so the road could be brought up to county standards become a county road and extend water and sewer utilities that's what happened with the church okay thanks for that clarification okay with that um

Well, I close the public hearing and open it to Commissioner comments. Do we have any comments? Randy.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Rich, I'm in favor of a project that doesn't severely... adversely affect the wildlife in this area and it's my understanding and please confirm with me that the majority of all the other I'll call it acreage around this parcel is either preserve land from

Was it just north of this?

It's either state land, state preserve.

State preserve or from Peking Island on the east side or from Hacienda.

Yeah, can someone put the, I don't know what happened. I'm pushing on it and it's doing nothing and then I realize it's not on anybody's screen.

And I'm setting you up for the answer So if you look everything around it is basically a conservation easement In simple words that means almost nothing can be put there as far as building There will be no

there there there there you're not gonna see houses okay that's all been placed in conservation easements a lot of it in relation to the hacienda lakes development they they had to place a lot of land into um conservation uh i don't want to get into the history of hacienda lakes Take hours correct, but no so you're not by approving a golf course. You're not gonna you're not enticing future development and converting conservation lands Into development land would you pretty much say that this is possibly the last available?

property within a mile or so of this area two miles whatever the case may be that could be used or built upon

Again, I guess there's probably some of this land, like in this area, is in the urban residential fringe so it's it's already allowed to be developed but as far as lands that are ascending lands i'm not aware of anything even close to around here that would would uh fit this category of being development pretty much everything to the east and south is protected that's that's my understanding yes sir well that's to me that's good news to me that's good news great thank you very much rich

Are we still asking questions? Are we asking questions or are we deliberating? We're deliberating.

I don't have any questions. We're deliberating.

Well, these are why we get paid so much money. But to me, I have to simplify things. It becomes very simple when I do that because I have a simple mind. Years ago, the county spent a lot of money with a lot of people to develop this as ascending and designated as ascending land. To change it there to me there would need to be an overwhelming public benefit. I don't I don't see any of that We are not the final recourse on this the people that decided it was ascending land will be the final Decision makers in my opinion. I'm not willing to vote to approve these and change take these out of sending land So I don't see the public benefit to it. So I'm gonna vote against it Okay any other comments

I was a community development administrator at the time this was passed. I just had joined the staff. Following the governor's order in 1999, there was a directive that we stop all growth and development. It was both the rural fringe and the eastern lands, and we hired consultants and went through significant public review now to understand the eastern lands amendments was principally five or six landowners they hired their own consultant at that time developed the eastern lands amendments and they were in cooperation with the county to develop that what we would call the eastern lands amendments to the growth management plan The rural fringe was a little bit different. Thousands of homeowners, and honestly I appreciate the comments that were made at the time, but my recollection on staff, I don't recall the staff being, each homeowner being notified of the change. But it was an attempt, as it was, to comply with the governor's order to stop the growth expanding eastward into what was deemed to be sensitive lands. So there was the criteria developed to develop and identify through overlays on the map overlays critical sensitive lands for development to prohibit development, neutral lands and then receiving lands where you wanted the direct growth to go to, which were predominantly lands impacted. Similar in the rural fringe, all the receiving lands in the eastern lands amendments, and I'm talking about Immokalee and that greater area, All the receiving lands predominantly were agricultural lands that were going to be converted to homes. And now we've been through several of the towns and villages that were developed out there, and that was all based on so much land being put in preserve, typically two to three times the amount of land being put in preserve, Rue Fringe was a little bit different. This piece of land was a land agriculture. I, to this day, and I'm sitting here 20-something years later, 26 years later, this land should have never been designated as sending land. It's a farm. It's been a farm. I believe that this homeowner, if they wanted to, could take this to court and challenge the ruling from 26 years ago, and they would have every right to do so, and it would be up to the county to prove that they were right in rezoning this land. I don't think the county wants to go through that. I believe that this property... Like a similar property, I won't bring up the name, but there was a settlement agreement with another very similar property just north of here, and the county went through several years of lawsuits, and they finally went to a settlement agreement, and that land was converted from sending to neutral, and it was developed. Mr. Yovanovitch knows. I don't want to get into detail. The county attorney knows if we want to get into that. But I believe this land, I think that clearly if they go to court, this will be deemed commercial and it will be developed as live local. 1,200, 1,800 homes will be out there under live local. And if I recall, under live local, they can build to the highest elevation within a mile. And I would have to believe that there are probably six to eight stories we could probably put out there on this piece of property. I don't want to see that happen. And I believe that if they go to court, given the language in the live local, this property will be developed under live local. And it'll be far, far more intense of a development. I think in order to get ourselves out of this, the best things for the county, the best things for the community, this is a low intensity use, 200 members, probably the intensity is even less than leaving this as a commercial entity, as an orange grove. I am willing to make a proposal that we approve this, both the growth management plan and the accompanying Common Facility CF Community facility plan unit development. Plan unit development, thank you. Community facilities plan unit development. And in doing so, we approve it both acting as the EAC and as the Collier County Planning Commission. So I'd make a recommendation of approval. I open up to any comments. But I think it's the best way to resolve this issue for the county and the residents. This is a low intensity use. And the biggest impact, as Mr. Hall said, will be during construction, and there will be a lot of money spent to reconvert this from an orange grove to a golf course. We're talking probably over 1,000 trees going to be planted out there to restore this. If this were to... there's folks talking about this becoming conservation collier i think there's a legal issue there that this does not qualify for conservation collier but i i will leave that up to the public if they want to challenge it i think there's going to open up the the county to a legal challenge if they use county money and county taxpayers money that was supposed to be devoted to putting lands in preserve that are are high quality lands to put in preserve this does not qualify Even though I understand the advisory board recommended approval, I don't think it qualifies for conservation collier. And be that as it may, I don't even know if conservation collier could even afford to restore this. I'm guessing. I've heard the figure $50 million. That could be anywhere from $10 to $15 million to restore this back to its natural habitat. I would encourage that if... Folks want to put in this preserve. I think the only other alternative is to find some very wealthy benefactors who could pool their monies and make a legitimate offer to the homeowners or the property owner, and then this land could be turned over to the state and put in the preserve. But the state is not going to take it until it's reclaimed. The state will not want this piece of property until it's restored. So I make a recommendation of approval. So with that, I open up the comment. Go ahead, Michelle.

I wanted to work through Paul's thoughts. So, Paul, you're opposing it because it's designated sending lands. But the premise of the petitioner's argument is that they were not aware that they would be able to sell their land.

23 years ago. 23 years. It's been actually about 26. 26 years. so should I be sympathetic to that or sympathetic to the fact that a bunch of people smart people got together and said that should be a sending land and in two hours of listening to presentation I know more than they did and I'm going to change that sending to receiving I'm not going to do that

not willing to do it and then in your i mean not in your opinion i don't mean to put this on you but because i'm trying to work through that thought should this have been ascending area well shouldn't the people that made the decision to make it ascending area make that decision not not not me

I didn't designate it as a sending area. A bunch of people did. We're not going to decide, listening to their petition, whether that should or should not have been a sending area. It's very complex. It's not that simple. And I'm saying I don't think it's in my purview to make that decision to override what time and effort was put in to make that decision. Joe was involved in it. He has more firsthand knowledge, and he can have a different opinion. He has more knowledge. But I just don't think it's our position to change. There's no public benefit I see from this. You've heard me in the past say, Always balance public benefit versus local impact and there's always a public benefit What's the public benefit to change the growth management plan or change the the this from ascending area? I don't see it and that's what I view is my job here is to balance that and the balance clearly is I reject them There's no public benefit to offset making a change in the growth management plan.

That's It's true. I think if clearly there's public record these meetings they were public meetings they were public hearings and testimony by we've hired consultants back then all that stuff is part of the public record of how these lands were designated and I think there's a clear Evidential evidence that shows how the staff evaluated it. I don't know about this particular piece of property The complication back then was because of the thousands of individual homeowners So different than when the Eastern lands amendments which were the five or six families out there they paid for it they sponsored it and they brought forward the the amendments that were vetted before the public to create the rule and stewardship and Wilson Miller at that time, which I'm whatever their company I stand take now, but it was Wilson Miller extensive analysis. I don't recall that kind of analysis that was done for the Royal Fringe. It was pretty much a one mile east of 951 was sort of the demarcation. and it was just an arbitrary line drawn and they said this is the this is the rule fringe where we're going to prohibit development Brad goes back the years of going through that as well and others Nancy Linan I can name the names of folks who were involved in this meetings with the staff I think my only I don't know it's just a personal opinion if Mr. Ivanovich takes this to court. I think he's gonna, we're not gonna like the results. It'll be live local. And I see, I'm watching, driving down 951, I see a live local project at Henderson Creek. It's unbelievable that that building is going up 10 stories. Right on 951. That's that's what we're gonna deal with out here the you know the in the in the the hearts and minds of our legislature state legislature that developed a live local they wanted to create an opportunity for affordable housing but It took away our right and it took away the citizens' right to prevent anything from happening out there. And I believe this will be deemed commercial. It's going to be, there may be, we'll see which way a judge will go. It'll go before a judge. It could even be appealed. But it's going to be deemed commercial and it's going to be developed. And high, far, far more intensive than what they're proposing right now. We approve this as an amendment to the growth management plan. It locks in concrete. This is all you can do. 11 units. 11 units? 10. Thank you. 10 units and a golf course and a clubhouse. And... For those who know the kind of golf course they're building, Colusa Pines is very similar, Naples National. Those are probably the only two that would be equivalent to what they're going to build here. Very low intense. This is the kind of club where somebody's going to fly in on their jet to Naples Airport, three guys or four guys, and go out and play golf. And no tee time. They show up. You go out and play. If you've got that kind of money, I guess you can build that kind of club. Go ahead, please. just to get a better understanding of how this whole thing worked back in the day so did property owners get a right did they get a vote as to whether their property would be sending no there were public hearings there were very detailed public hearings through both the what was called the submittal transmittal then adoption there were two public hearings transmittal two public hearings adoption um they could cut yeah and then you could file up here you could file it go ahead mike

I was just going to, for the Planning Commission's benefit, I wasn't part of the staff, but there was a one-year provision at the adoption of the World Fringe Mixed Use District's designations, whether it be sending neutral or receiving, that if you felt that it was incorrectly being imposed upon your property because of conditions or other issues, there is an opportunity to appeal that to the Board of County Commissioners. So individuals who disagreed with the designation were able to go through a process to have their property exempted or undesignated by the actions of the county.

And I'm open to public hearing because I'm going to recognize Mr. Yovanovitch, I know, because he was around at that time as well, if you want to highlight.

I do. And to piggyback a little bit on your question, yeah, you had a one-year appeal if you knew what happened to you. But nobody knew. I could tell you I represented several big property owners. And they were aware of what was going on. And they paid someone like me or Bruce Anderson or other land use lawyers and Wayne Arnold and other planners to interject themselves into that process and file appeals on behalf of their property owner. And I can tell you pretty much, if you hired an attorney to represent yourself in your process, you didn't get a sending land designation. You either got a receiving land designation or you got a neutral designation. So, and I said this at the last hearing, I feel confident that had these individuals come to me and said, Rich, please represent me, this would have been designated neutral at worst. Never would have been designated sent. But they didn't know to hire me. They didn't know what was going on. So there was no individual notice to property owners to know what was happening. So when you say that they have a vote, no.

Well, again, I close the public hearing from that standpoint. I mean, lack of knowledge doesn't make it the right. My concern is we are where we are now and what could happen in the future. And I just don't want to see this become a live local. Is there a chance? Is there a chance it won't? But I'm pretty sure that if this was challenged... But primarily the rules at that time to make a neutral receiving I mean, of course, this was a viable business at that time, 26 years ago. They probably, even if they knew, they probably said, oh, this will never happen. I'm going to grow oranges from now to whatever. But 26 years ago, I can think of the Collier industry and Barron Collier, Collier Enterprise, their orange industry is nothing what it is, today is nothing what it was 26 years ago. And those lands out there, they've all been converted. They were now, they, but they were the major property owners out there. And I believe that this would have been an easy, easy challenge to make it neutral. At worst, it would have been neutral. And it should have been identified neutral because it was an active farm. It was not a preserve. Now, does that mean the neighbor who lives across the street, can they come in next week and say, now I want to convert? I guess they could. But each action is independent. It's not because of one or the other. But I just, again, I think the potential of this, I mean, live local is what really kind of throws a wrench in my mind on this because it's potential. We could have 1,200, 1,500 homes more. Probably more. Probably close to 2,000.

Whatever 25 times 169 is.

Yeah. I'm not doing the math. Anyways, anybody else?

Can I offer a comment? Paul. First of all, I don't think we should be dealing with what should have been or could have happened. And I don't think we should, at this level, be dealing with what could happen in the future, although I'm totally sympathetic to what Joe is saying. I don't think that's our position. I think it's the commissioner's position. It's a policy decision. they designated this as a sending area and they should be the ones to change that we don't have we oftentimes do change we do when we have an overwhelming public benefit there's I believe our role is does it make sense to change it and to me it doesn't make sense I'm not saying what that Joe's wrong in his speculation. Joe has what I call smart man's disease. He's been here so long, he knows what the hell happened. But that shouldn't affect our decision as to how we got here. It's more are we willing to change it and why would you be willing to change it just because they asked us to?

I thought I was smart. Retired Army engineer, how's that?

You've been involved with, you understand all this.

Anyways, go ahead, because we have a motion on the floor, and we don't have a, I haven't heard a second. If there's no second, it just dies. But we'll have to have it, we'll have to go to vote. But go ahead, Michelle.

OK, so. Paul, just like you say we have our job is to kind of follow the law, the direction. But here's where I'm stuck again, because the county commissioners told these petitioners come back to us with less intense use. They have now we vote right?

Good point.

we've been directed to do this no we haven't we've been directed to review this petition right but am i right but not with the idea that because it's less intensive we should improve it approve it You still need a...

The applicant withdrew the petition in front of the board. We did not.

We did not. Oh, I thought you did. We did not withdraw that petition. There was no vote.

Oh, there was no vote. Thank you. I thought it was a withdrawal. Thank you for correcting the record. There was no vote. And then the one commissioner said, I will meet with the applicant. I'll meet... And we'll try and find an alternative use, a less intense use. But at the same time, they were pursuing a potential for conservation collier. If that happens, that happens.

May I have one more comment, please? You're exactly right, Ms. McCloud. The commissioners told us to do three things. See if we actually do get an offer. Two, consider conservation collier. And three, look for an alternative, less intense use. And that's what we did. Look for a less intense use, which required us to come back here. that we were so i think the the ash they're asking you is this an appropriate less intense use on this property that's what they're asking you to decide not whether there's a public benefit they're asking you is this an appropriate less intense use on the property okay well um randy

I'd like to go on record of saying with what I understand from speaking with a variety of people here today and looking at the maps of the surrounding area, I am not a specialist for wildlife but I believe a less intense use of a golf course with the surrounding areas of being in preserves which to my understandings basically can't be changed or it would be extremely difficult to do any other type of development from i'll call it the south of this parcel to the east of the parcel and maybe even right up to verona walk because it is less intense of being a golf course and everything else that we've heard here today I would like to second the motion to move this petitioner's program forward.

Okay with that I got a motion and a second. All in favor state aye. Aye. Any opposed?

Aye.

Passes five to one. Thank you. With that, we'll take a lunch break because the next petition is going to be fairly long. And then we're voting both as the EAC. For clarification, we're voting as the EAC for both the amendment, the growth management plan, and the PUD. Is that a single vote then, Joe? It can be combined. Just one vote. We voted both as EAC and as the planning commission.

Thank you. With that, we'll take a lunch break.

What do we need, 30 minutes? Is that enough? 30 minutes. We will reconvene at, make it 1225.

After the love game has been played All our illusions are just a parade And all our reasons start to fade We'll be right back.

Tonight.

Thank you. Thank you. Girl, I was made for you I was made for loving you, baby. You were made for loving me. And I can't give it all to you, baby. Can you give it all?

If we please could reconvene this is the next item and Thank you for indulging us in a short break, but we're ready to move on to the next item. These are two items 9e and 9f 9E is PL20250006272. It's Naples Workforce Housing Mixed-Use Subdistrict, so it's a GMP amendment. And a companion item, PL20240010093, Naples Workforce Housing MPUD. These are both on the Tamiami Trail East and Andrew Drive. So with that, I'll start with disclosures first. Disclosures, please.

Staff materials only.

Staff materials only I spoke to Mr. Yovanovitch about this application the two items as well Staff materials a conversation with Mr. Yovanovitch and a conversation with Mr. Bosi this morning Staff materials conversation with Mr. Yovanovitch Staff materials only Staff materials had a conversation with Rich Yovanovitch and I visited the site and the surrounding areas With that then all all wishing to speak please rise to be sworn in Thank you, and with that I turn it over to petitioner mr. Ivanovich Unless staff has any opening marks nothing.

Okay. Thank you, sir I was hoping he was going to change his staff recommendation, but I guess he didn't eat the right lunch. Good afternoon. For the record, Rich Yovanovitch on behalf of the petitioner. Nick Mattar is the applicant and property owner. Ken Sandora is our professional engineer. And Mr. Glass is our architect, but he is not able to be here.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

yeah so what we're here for today are two petitions one is a growth management plan amendment to create a sub-district for this one acre parcel that is on your your screen it's a compilation of basically three lots um it's within the bayshore cra it fronts us 41 and is i think that's andrew road right i can't andrew drive is this road right now you take andrew road at the end of andrew road is basically shadow lawn elementary school i'm going to show you an exhibit that shows you that but i want to put it in context and here's where we are right now that's the county complex and um This is an excellent location for what we're proposing, which is to provide a mixed-use project within the CRA. It will include significant commitment to workforce housing it is going to include 30 residences of the 30 residences 83% of those residences 25 of the 30 will be income restricted 11 of them will be income restricted at 80 and below 11 of them will be income restricted at 100 below and then three more are set aside for people who actually work in the establishments that are going to be part of the project and they are also income restricted at the 100 category This is the first project I've been involved in where there's actually a commitment to provide housing to people who are working on the site. So I think that is a unique attribute to this project. And I think this is exactly kind of what workforce housing is supposed to do. I'll show you another exhibit as far as it's an excellent location to serve employers around here, including people who work at the county complex. But I'll get into that a little bit greater detail. One of the things You know, this is maybe one of the few, if only, projects that I've disagreed with staff on their conclusion. Your staff is recommending denial of both petitions because they think it's too intense. And I think that there's some factors that haven't been factored into that analysis and one of which is staff is recommending denial but limit us to what they believe is the maximum density of 16 units per acre on this property. Well, in actuality, the maximum density on this property is 25 units per acre because it's zoned commercial for a portion of the property. So there's no question it qualifies under the Live Local Act for development. So I think the spread about the number of units that we're requesting versus what can be accomplished under the current comprehensive plan or current laws is not the difference between 16 and 30. It's between 25 and 30 for a majority of the property. Also, I don't, don't know of another project that is a for-profit developer that's committed basically 83% of the units 25 of the 30 to income restricted units and only having five that are eligible for people who have an income greater than 100% of the median income also there were some comments from Take a step back. At the neighborhood information meeting, there was the original project had 40 units, not 30 units. So there were some, and that was the same project was presented to the CRA, was 40 units versus 30 units. So there were comments and concerns about the intensity and density of the 40 unit project versus what we ultimately came in at 30. And that, the reduction was in response to comments that we received at the neighborhood information meeting and at the cra meeting so the density was reduced the affordable commitment was increased from 60 percent to what is now the 83 percent affordable housing so in response to those public meetings there were changes made to the project that in my opinion provide much better public benefit as a result of this project. And I think justify our request for 30 units on this one acre site versus whatever the math would be under Mike's calculation. I'm not going to read through the entire sub-district language. It's in your backup, but it basically says what I just said as far as the affordable commitments as part of this project. The principal uses on this project are going to be uh four thousand fifty square foot uh retail it'll be a restaurant with a drive-through on the ground floor and then basically on the roof there'll be a thousand foot thousand square foot juice bar and cafe so floors two through four will be the residential units the residential units are going to be smaller units they're going to be one bedroom and studios uh which i think is a unique product that's being offered in this market they're smaller they're for people who want to work it's in close proximity to employment it's in close proximity to existing most bus stops so it's ideally located and i think will attract uh working people to live in these units. They're not intended to be family units. They're intended to be for those who are single. Maybe you'll be married because they're only around 500, 550 square feet. It's probably the same size as my first one bedroom apartment when I moved here. It wasn't a place where I entertained a lot of people. It was basically a place where I slept, you know, and then would go to work or go play tennis somewhere else or go play golf somewhere else. It wasn't intended to be a big unit because I didn't need a big unit when I was a young employee, a young assistant county attorney, not even making probably what I was paid back then compared to what's the income category now. I probably was in the low category. Heidi was probably there with me. I think I made a whopping $29,000 a year. I may have been very low on the income category. In Canada it would have been nice to have a place this close to be able to walk to work at the time. This is, I wanted to put in context what's around us and what is in walkable distance for purposes of Why this is a great location to provide workforce housing. As I already mentioned, you've got the government center right here that's less than a quarter of a mile away. You've got Shadow Lawn Elementary School, which is slightly more than a quarter mile away. All easy walks to and from those prospective employers. You've got a bus stop right here on 41, not too far from the proposed project. You can walk to the, I guess the transportation hub. So basically you can live here and work pretty much anywhere in Collier County and get there easily by public transportation. So ideally it's a great location for this particular type of project. i think that there's no question that there's a need for this type of housing the question becomes where are you going to put it and can you build enough of it to make it work one of the things i wanted to point out is because we're in the overlay i'm sorry yeah the cra overlay and we're mixed use the building height is 56 feet under the existing regulations So they're getting a building that is consistent with what could be there today from a compatibility impact on their surrounding single-family homes. So the structure and the setbacks, they're getting what was anticipated to be on this piece of property as far as the massing of the building and the size of the building. And as far as impacts on the neighbors, and one of the comments from... Planning staff has to do with... Sorry. Lost the master plan. There we go. one of the one of the comments from staff and one of the reasons they planning staff had a concern was this parking lot here which is an off-site parking lot on a residential piece of property that will be part of the pud and i'll get into this in a little bit greater detail it's not unusual to have off-site parking to serve a commercial project or a residential project and i'll give you some examples But one of the concerns from planning staff, not transportation staff, but from planning staff was they believe we need to have a crosswalk in that location. They want us to have a mid-block crosswalk because they think it's unsafe for people to walk from this parking lot, which is going to be for the residential units, not for the commercial. We have enough parking on the site for the commercial to walk from here to that building. They want us to do a crosswalk. We're happy to do the crosswalk. Unfortunately, transportation staff says you don't meet the criteria, you don't meet the warrants. We're a crosswalk. It's not unsafe for people to walk across the street. So transportation staff says, we don't buy your justification for putting the crosswalk in, so we're not going to give you a crosswalk. But if you ever do meet the wants, we want a commitment from you, you'll put the crosswalk in. And we're all in. We'd love to put the crosswalk in today. which would alleviate planning staff's concern but your professionals who deal with traffic are saying you don't need the crosswalk you can ask mike sawyer if if i'm paraphrasing correctly staffs yes sir you define tell me what a crosswalk that makes it so special other than some lines that you paint in the road i was thinking the same thing Maybe they would maybe want me to have a little buzzer on it, the lights would... So they would light up. So people would know. Now, you're going to hear from Cannon, but basically right now there's less than one car a minute serving those homes in the back. even at my advanced age, I'm pretty sure I can cross 20 feet of pavement safely without a crosswalk and dodge a car every 60 seconds.

But Mike's not saying you can't put a crosswalk in. He's just saying you don't need it.

No, he's saying I can't put it in because I don't meet the warrants to put one in. So I would love to put it in. But it's not necessary. And look, he's got a job to do. His job is to make sure the roads function without unnecessary impediments to people driving back and forth. It's an unnecessary impediment on the road for the crosswalk because there's no safety reason for it. that's an engineering issue you're an engineer you can probably understand that but but i get it we can't put this crosswalk in but one of the reasons staff is not supporting their project is because they think it's not safe to have the parking lot on the other side of the street. I'm going to show you some examples where it works perfectly fine, show you examples where parking lots serving commercial development are built in RMF 6 zoned areas, which this is RMF 6. I'll show you where this all works. And just so we're all clear, this parking lot is going to have a 6-foot wall around it, all the way around it, and landscaping in the buffer. So that's kind of related to one of the other deviations we're asking for is we're asking instead of we have 12 cars in each row, and we've asked for a deviation because you're not allowed to have more than 10 without putting a landscape island in. So we're asking to be able to put 12 in instead of 10 in without a landscape island. But our position is you're not going to see it anyway because we've got a wall hiding it. We've got landscaping hiding it. what do you really need the landscape island in there in the first place? And I'll show you another example where I don't know how many cars are in there, but it's more than 10 without landscape islands. So we've asked for that deviation. If that deviation is somehow denied, well, we'll do less retail because we think it's important to provide workforce housing. So if we have to, if that deviation goes away, we'll just do less retail. But from a perspective of that offsite parking, and we also have the adjacent property owners to that parking lot have signed off and said we support the project they supported the original project at 40 units versus just the 30 units so these are the two property owners of the parcels adjacent to where we're going to put the parking lot are signing off and saying we're fine with the project which includes the off-site parking so we think the off-site parking is a couple things one it's safe to walk across the street and two we don't think it negatively impacts the neighborhood by putting a parking lot on those parcels now here are some examples of Off-site parking lots serving commercial developments. If you all are familiar with Solana Road, Solana Road is anchored on the US-41 side by the Cadillac dealership and on the Goodlett-Frank Road side by both the Subaru dealership on the north side of Solana and the GMC Buick dealership on the south side. This is the parking lot serving the Cadillac dealership. It's on RMF 6 zone property, in the middle of a residential neighborhood, not in any way negatively impacting the quality of life of those single-family homes. It's properly landscaped, and if you notice here, they've got way more than 10 spaces with no islands breaking up the spaces. Maybe it was built before that requirement became an LDC requirement. But my point is with proper landscaping, you don't really need that landscape island. Now on 14th Street, you have, this is the GMC Buick dealership. They have two offsite parking lots here and here. servicing this car dealership and this car dealership as well those parcels are also zoned rmf6 and they're adjacent to residential not negatively impacting the quality of life of those residential neighborhoods I think I did this one. I can't remember if I did this one or I did that one. So I am familiar with going through the process of doing off-site parking. That's a similar situation. It's a two-lane road. You have employees walking back and forth safely to their jobs. They don't have mid-block crosswalks. And I can tell you from personal experience, only because I drive this road every morning when I go to work. There's a lot of cars that go up and down 14th Street and employees safely walk from the parking lot to their commercial development without any mid-block crossings. Likewise, on Solana, When I go to get my Starbucks in the morning, I drive that road. People cross the road safely, and that's a heavily traveled road, so heavily traveled that it even has traffic tables to break up the speed so you can't go too fast on Solana Road, and people safely walk from their parking lot to their employment. They do have crosswalks at this one, though, but no flashing lights. so it clearly can be done safely and not negatively impact the fabric of a residential neighborhood in my last example another project i worked on this is the old witches brew property for those of you who've been around for a while The Lutgerts own it and redeveloped it with an office building. I think it's Venture X is like the main sign that you see when you're looking at that office building. That's an off-site parking lot on R6 serving the commercial. office building we're not negatively impacting a predominantly single-family residential neighborhood so from a compatibility standpoint there's no question that a parking lot could be compatible with an rmf6 residential neighborhood and it's not uncommon for that to happen to provide for the additional parking we're asking for two deviations both of them relate to uh the landscaping island that you're required to provide it one is in the parking lot which i've already talked about you're not allowed to have more than 10 spaces without have a parking aisle or island breaking up after you have the for the 11th space And another one is for the on-street parking that we're allowed to have. Because we have six parking spaces, we would be required to have a landscape aisle. we're asking for a deviation to be allowed to have six on street parking spaces uh because you're only allowed to have five that effect is we would lose three park we'd lose three parking spaces which would mean we'd have to reduce our commercial uh commercial square footage to accommodate that but we wouldn't have to lose any of the residential units to accommodate that we're hopeful that you'll see the value of a mixed-use project and approve those two deviations related to landscaping within the parking areas i'm going to now turn it over to canada to take you through the site plan and through some of the traffic related to this and then i'll come back up with some concluding remarks

All right, I'm Canon Sandor. I'm the engineer on the project, and I put together this site plan. So I just – Rich kind of already introduced it. I just wanted to go into some of the specific features. So, you know, as Rich said, we're incorporating two lots on Andrews Drive. So there's one – you know, the main property is immediately – on 41 and then the property just to the north of that um is a 55 foot a 50 foot lot and then the property across the street from that's 100 foot wide so we're incorporating those lots into this to make it a full acre To meet the parking requirements, so. Now there's an ingress egress on Andrew's drive for both the main site in the parking lot across the street as well as an egress directly on US 41. So a lot of people that are going to, you know, let's say they're here to. They're using the commercial property. They're going to the restaurant or they're going through the food pickup line there. They can just exit directly on 41 so they don't have to pull back onto Andrews Drive to exit from the restaurant. um and um so there's 57 parking spaces total that's to meet the requirements there um it's one per unit so that's um of well you know residential units that's 30 and then it's 100 per 150 square feet of commercial so we have the 4050 square feet of commercial so that breaks down to 27 spaces We're including nine on-street parking spaces. We're showing where those are right there basically. where we had room for them along our property. And then there's 24 in the across the street parking lot. And that's only for residential use. The across the street parking lot, we're gonna have signs up that say, nobody, you know, for the commercial, nobody coming in for a restaurant can use that parking space. They're gonna be marked, you know, unit one, unit two, unit three, so that it's very clear that that's not a commercial parking lot. It's only for residents. Um, and then, you know, we, we've, um, we propose crosswalk connecting the cross the street lot. If warranted, um, as we're just talking about, we don't, it doesn't meet the manual guidelines. Because of the, the minimal traffic on that road. Um, but we'd be, we'd be happy to provide any, you know, crosswalk or safety. know feature you know speed bumps um signage stuff like that um if the county wants it i'd be glad to do it i think it's it's very safe just across a small residential road i think most people do that every day um where's where's the on street parking uh the on street parking this is on street park like there this is the six in a row here okay so it's parallel and then there's one here one here one here so just where we had look with you know adjacent to our site um property we included the on-street parking um and then we were uh putting a six foot prefabricated you know opaque wall um with enhanced landscape buffer between the wall and the adjacent residential. So anywhere that our development is a budding residential, we're putting a six foot wall and the enhanced landscape buffer is actually basically a double buffer. So the requirements for the buffer, you know, however many trees we're saying we're going to provide double the number of trees had the number of shrubs that are required. We're going to. We're going to put double. Basically, you're not going to see that wall. You're because you know it's better to look at landscaping. know than a wall so we wanted to do that for the neighbors um and we we ended up getting on both sides of the across the street parking lot we got their support as rich said so um the last thing all commercial parking is is on site and on street so i mentioned that before i just want to hit that home there's no um commercial parking across the street And then I wanted to get into the specific data on the traffic because, you know, I wanted to present you guys hard numbers as far as, you know, how many existing trips are actually out there and how many the project is proposing. I don't want to just throw our hands in the air. So we did it. I did actually a 24 hour traffic study on that road and I found the peak a.m. hour in the peak p.m. hour and the data is here and then I converted it into seasonal factor. So basically this is the peak peak season peak hour data, you know, the busiest time in the a.m. There's 34 trips 7.45 to 8.45 a.m. 34 total trips. That's two-way, both directions, 34 trips. So that's basically a trip every almost one per every two minutes. And then in the p.m., The existing traffic out there is 52 trips in one hour. So that's less than one trip per minute existing on the street. So it's very easy to cross a road that only has one trip per minute. And the speed limit is 25 miles an hour on the road. So I don't see that as a problem. I just, there's, you guys saw the map a little bit. There's 45 homes. you know, along Andrews and where that road kind of goes. And there's also the back entrance to the school. Those are potentially the travelers on that road there. And then for the project trips, and I wanted to separate these out, and I want to tell you why. So there's 104 total AM peak hour trips. That's in both directions, a total of 104 going to our development. in the AM and 82 PM peak hour. Project trips. You know it in in the PM, so on on Andrews Drive and I'll just go back to the the reason I wanted to separate those out was because these are trips that are going to be going to our development, so it's not like they're going to be flying by. It's basically a parking lot situation because our our row. Our project is right on Tamiami, So they're not going to be, you know, they're not going to be breezing by the development. They're going to be turning in. They're going to be going at a slow speed to either turn into the, you know, park residentially or go to the restaurant or food pickup window. So it's different, in my opinion, than somebody, you know, people going to their homes further north.

We have several questions. Paul, first.

Go ahead, Paul. There's 30 residences. Will the parking place across the street only be for residents?

Yes, sir.

And so where do the rest of them, assuming they all have at least one car, they'll be allowed to park on the commercial side? How do you work that?

Yeah, so we could only fit 24 parking spaces across the street, so then that leaves six other spots that we're going to identify. And I think we decided to use the on-street parking. Is that, you know, or is it going to be the... Yeah, so it'll probably be. Okay. Oops. I guess I got to touch it here. So I'm thinking we're going to use these spots up here to mark them, you know, one, two, three, four, five, six. You know, so it's specified. We don't want people not to have their parking space that, you know, and it's going to be tow away zone if you use somebody's parking space.

Will it cost me more to get one of those six? I missed it. Will it cost me more to get one of those six?

You can talk to Nick about that.

Quick question, if I may. You said that the egress onto 41 is egress only coming out. Is it contoured to be right turn only?

It's right turn only, yeah.

It's not just a signage, but it's going to be contoured because you don't want... Yes, sir. Okay, great. Thank you.

I have a question, too. Michelle? Can you go back to your last slide?

This one?

I'm not understanding the seasonal count versus the the unseasonable count and then did you stay in season on the road 24 hours in season and then again in off season

OK, so I'll explain and I I don't remember the exact date that we did the 24 hour study and we we, you know, record all the trips that come by in 24 hours and what time. But the seasonal factor basically it's different depending on when you do the study so if you do the study let's say in the middle of the summer when parking when when traffic's the lightest then this seasonal factor for us it was 1.15 that puts it if you did it in the middle of the summer you'd have the highest seasonal factor there's a chart and it's all released by fdot or you know some or might be collier county But basically, it puts the number that we got. So, for instance, heading southbound, there was 12 trips when we did our 24-hour analysis. During that one hour, there was 12 trips. All right, so then you multiply by the seasonal factor to get it into peak season, you know, an estimated peak season for that. Does that make more sense? Yes. Okay.

Thank you.

Are you going to repave the entire front of the road until the end of the parking lot?

Are you talking about Andrew's Drive? Yes. I think it's one of the conditions in this that we are going to repave the entire road or at least make sure it's with requirements and to Collier County standards.

No no sir just tip 41 I have some questions on the operation I'm looking at the schematic of the building itself and that's over a series of pages two thousand two three zero six seven and eight and and the site plan itself. Okay, we have a restaurant, 3,050 square foot restaurant on the first floor with a driving lane. Go back to the site plan for the driving lane. I have a problem with the driving lane and the parking. Where's the front entrance to the restaurant? Typically we don't get into designing buildings, but I have a problem with the way this is laid out. the drive-thru lane inhibiting customers parking their car and going to the restaurant. So I got to compete against the drive-thru lane. You're the engineer. You lay this out. Where's the restaurant front entrance?

Well, there's multiple doors to the restaurant. So there's three doors. There's one on the north side, then there's... On this side, of course, you know, you can't have an entrance where the food pickup window is. But, I mean, a lot of times, you know, somebody, people parking here, there's a sidewalk right here that they're going to access the restaurant.

No, they're going to cut across the parking lot.

They do have to get, yeah, but to get to this sidewalk.

All right, so where are the spaces for the commercial parking downstairs? Are the rest of the parking, including the habitat or handicap, is for the commercial?

The rest of the handicap. Yeah, the handicap is based on the total number of spaces. Correct. Yeah. And I just want to make a point because you made a good point here that I think they might be able to access the restaurant. Maybe we could do another door over there. I mean, I'm not the architect, so.

Well, I'm trying to understand this operation because I got a commercial on the first floor, but then I have a juice bar, a 1,000-foot juice bar. Is that the rooftop or is that an enclosed facility up there? Because I'm looking at the schematic, and it says Tiki Juice Bar and Cafe. Okay. basically 1,000 square foot facility. How does that cafe relate to what's going on on the first floor? Okay, first floor. Excuse me, sir, your name, please. Oh, my name, sorry.

My name is Nassif Matar, or Nick Matar, and I'm the owner of the properties and the planning to do the development there. Okay, to answer your question for the entrance, it doesn't show here, but if you show the first floor plant, It's on the east side. These are...

I can show it for you.

I'm just going to fast forward to it.

Okay.

That's the first floor, or the ground floor, I'm sorry. The entrance of the restaurant is on the east side of the property.

On the street side, yes.

Where Andrew... Okay. And this is the layout of the restaurant. And for the, it's not a takeout, it's a pickup lane. So there is no signage for people to order. This is only pickup lane. People order in the phone or internet or anything and they just drive through and they pick up their food and they go. So there is no sign for like Starbucks or Dunkin' Donuts or anything.

There's not a sign, a kiosk where I stop, make an order, and pull up? This is strictly for pickup?

Just strictly, the window is for pickup only.

Well, how does this operation on the first floor differ from what's going on upstairs? Now, upstairs, I got to get out of my car. I got to take the elevator up to the juice bar. Is that different hours of operation?

It is completely different. There's no morning hours there. It's going to be afternoon hours till 8, 9 o'clock at night. And there is a special elevator on the east side of the property. If you look there, the lobby. There is elevator to go to the fifth floor.

I'm looking at the schematic on here, but do you have the schematic of the top floor? There it is. The rest of that building up on the top floor, that's all open space? Is that the rooftop?

Yeah, this is the rooftop.

And this juice bar is enclosed?

Yeah, it's going to be enclosed, yes.

So if I'm visiting the juice bar, I park my car, I get out of the car, I got to go up to the juice bar.

Yeah, if you like. If you want.

All right.

My simple mind, I'm going to put it. Why not everything included? My problem is this is a lot in a small lot. and I think it's too much for a small lot. You've got commercial upstairs, you've got commercial on the first floor. I think the residential units are great, 30 units an acre. I'm fine with that because that's how we get affordable housing, but I'm trying to understand the parking. The parking calculations include both operations?

Are one work in one part of the day is a shared parking? No there's no chair parking because that's what we the restaurant the commercial the commercial space on the original plan was 4,500 square feet on the original plan yeah but because they need the three parking spots to accommodate the 30 units, because we had 27, 30 for the restaurant or the commercial, and there was 27 for the units. And they said we need 30 parking for the units. So we reduced the size of the restaurant or the commercial space from 4,500 to 4,050. So this way we have less amount of parking required for the commercial space, and we add the three to the residential space.

I mean, you're spending money to build a commercial operation. I mean, I guess you think that this is a viable proposal to have the juice bar separate from the restaurant.

Okay. The whole plan, it was the restaurant and the hookah shop, not hookah shop, so the bar shop is on the same floor. But in case we're going to use hookah or cigarette or anything, you cannot have food, with anything to do with smoke.

I got it. So this is like a little hookah lounge upstairs.

It's a possibility. So far it is a juice bar and a cafe at this minute.

And Joe, if I can just sneak in. And you said the first floor restaurant has hours 6 to noon. Upstairs is 4 to 8. They're never going to overlap?

They're going to be overlapped because it's 4 afternoon till 8 o'clock, 9 o'clock, 10 o'clock at night for the Tiki Bar. But there's no alcohol, by the way. And the restaurant operation is, we don't know we're going to open 6.30, 7 o'clock till 8 o'clock, or we're going to open lunch, supper at this minute.

Do you have enough commercial parking lots?

Yes.

If they're both open?

Yes. That's why we have 27 parking spots allocated for the commercial use.

Okay. I didn't understand that.

So the commercial use is 4,050 square feet total. Required 27 parking spots.

So basically, yeah, there's 4,050 square feet total. If you divide that by 150, you get to 27 spaces. So we have enough parking when they're all open. Now, we did... you know i do think that there is some overlap between the commercial um use and also the residential like you know some basically the commercial you know is closed during the night when you know people are coming home but we didn't we completely you know have 30 spaces set aside there's no um shared parking spaces although i think that is a reality that you know People are going to come home later, and the restaurant is going to slow down.

But you can't count on if everyone comes home to watch 6 o'clock news.

We park as if everything's open at the same time.

And all 30 residents are at home.

And all 30 people are at home.

Okay.

We meet the required parking for the residences and for the two commercial operations of the building.

Are you looking to have alcohol in the commercial operation?

I said zero alcohol.

Zero?

Okay. Both operations.

Just so we, just let me take a step back. And I meant to say this right at the very beginning. For those of you who have been here a while, this was the old Long John Silver factory. uh fast food establishment they may have had some other things it's it's it's an eyesore at the best way to describe it it's a it is a blighted parcel of property you have a gentleman who wants to come in here and redevelop it with both a retail operation which was his original plan his real goal was to have this restaurant i got the permit the 2020. yeah he got a permit to do the restaurant then someone mentioned to him hey you know what this is a perfect opportunity to do a mixed use project and provide workforce housing i wonder if he regrets that because we're here six years later And now, to Nick's credit, and by the way, I got hired late on this one. And this is one I'm kind of, when I was talking to Commissioner McCloud the other day, I was pretty passionate about it because I just think this is a perfect project in a perfect location to where you have a mixed use, where you're actually providing housing for the people who are going to work at the retail establishment. And when I started reading the staff report, I thought I was going to get a recommendation of approval. It sounded great until I went to the last page. And then I said, boy, I don't know what happened to Mike. I'm joking. So I think it's a great project. And to take away from the workforce housing, I think, is a mistake. To take away from the retail operation, I think, is a mistake. It's a perfect niche, nice thing, small. Small business. Isn't that what we're supposed to be trying to encourage for people to do here in Carter County and redevelop in a blighted area? This is the redevelopment area. It's a blighted area that you're going to get, and you've seen it. You know, the, you know, just, you know, those are nice looking buildings. They're not cheap. And that's going to be now an entrance to a neighborhood that candidly I think is going to improve that neighborhood and add value to that neighborhood. And I'm shocked at the opposition that we've received from the CRA and from staff What I think is a project, and I've been involved in projects that have been far more intense, none of which provided 83% of the units of income restricted. And then, and I'm going to lead into the item that was continued. And I told Mike about this, and I even told Noel about this. The item that was continued. was asking for a growth management plan amendment to triple the density, triple the density, from 1.5 units per acre to 5.4 units per acre, or 5.3. I can't remember. I think it was 5.4. Triple the density. It was providing zero affordable housing. It was actually reducing their obligation to provide TDRs. They were supposed to do 10, and they were reducing it to 8, and they were tripling their density. And I'm sitting there going, where is the public benefit of that versus this project that is clearly meeting a public need and is unique and, frankly, should be rewarded that this gentleman wants to come in here and do this type of project on this piece of property?

And I'll offer a soapbox now. Let me make a comment, because I asked a question operationally He did his business plan. I admire the fact that you think this is a viable business and that there's a demand both for the restaurant and for the lounge upstairs. I just wanted to understand the hours of operation and who's going to park where. Because I want it to succeed. You're going to build this thing. I certainly want it to succeed. And you basically believe that from a business perspective, this is an operation that can survive. But the second point of this is, and I concur with Mr. Ivanovich's statement, What's there now is deplorable, and it's been that way for, God, it's been like that, what, six years, seven years now?

It's like 20 years.

20 years. How many years? 10.

10.

No, over 11 years. I've been here 14, 15 years.

It's deplorable what's there. That's the second question. I just don't understand. The CRA is called a community redevelopment area. What part of community redevelopment am I missing when they voted not to approve this? It's community redevelopment. And I read that. And where did the vote go saying I don't like this because I want it to stay blighted when, in fact, a CRA –

was developed that CRA was probably developed 25 years ago I'm sure you're gonna hear from them because they stood up and raised their hand but I don't understand why they denied it is it because they wanted to stay a vacant building well I read the minutes I read the minutes and I think they were verbatim minutes and there was concern about commercial creep by having the parking lot on residential lots And I've just shown you examples of where that happens frequently in Cairo County. So to me, that argument is – I don't think that's a valid argument. It's not commercial creep. It's allowing for the redevelopment of a commercially blighted piece of property with a mixed-use project. Putting a parking lot in a residential area is allowed under your code. There's a process to do it. We followed that process, as other businesses have done well. and then they they heard a 40 unit project not a 30 unit project maybe that would have changed their opinion i don't know but i was i was frankly i'm really disappointed candidly about how that how that turned out because i think this is not commercial creep it's already a commercially zoned piece of property right and and it's right on 41 and candidly it's an odd shaped piece of property I don't know how it ended up being the way it is, if you look at that piece of property. And what he's done is he's kind of squared it off and made it functional. He bought additional properties to make it work.

Well, let's say the off-site parking, and I don't know if the neighbors are here to talk about it, but from the standpoint, the two homeowners you said approve it... If the property, the parking lot, the owner is responsible for maintaining the landscaping and everything, and if in fact there's a problem, I know where to go, and that's the knock on your door to get the thing fixed. So I guess the standpoint, anything that can be approved, even the parking, if it's not maintained, you're responsible to maintain the off-site parking as well.

Yes, sir. I'd like just to go back a little bit about your question about They're going to be 30 parking spots, like 24 on the opposite of the street, across the street. All of them will be designated to residential tenants. And it's going to be signage that throw away all these things that prevent anybody from using it. And same thing is going to be six. PARKING SPOTS ON THE BACK OF THE THING, SORRY, ALSO DESIGNATED THAT NOBODY ALLOWED TO PARK ON THESE SIX SPOTS, SO THESE 30 UNITS, 30 PARKING SPOTS WILL BE DESIGNATED FOR THE 30 UNITS, AND AS WE SIGN IT, ANYBODY CAN SEE THAT NOBODY ALLOW, NOBODY, LIKE, DOESN'T MATTER WHO, BECAUSE THIS PARKING NUMBER ONE BELONGS TO NUMBER ONE, UNIT NUMBER ONE, NUMBER TWO, NUMBER THREE. nobody can park on number one it is number five the cars will be towed away so i mean this kind of signage signage will be available all the time so this way we have no confusion about parking for the the tenants or the the thing and the rest of the parking spots is commercial anybody can use them okay all right michelle yes nick hi how long have you owned this property i couldn't figure that out okay uh 2018 i i acquired the 3091 tamiami trail east 2018 2018 okay the first commercial one i applied for a permit to get a restaurant i get the permit in october 2020 okay for the long john silver for that for the commercial property 3091 tamiami trail east i got the permit to build a restaurant approved by the city because I hired Davidson Engineering, and they did all the work. And 2021, 22, because of COVID and all this stuff, nothing happened. So 22, Mr. Glass, who broke his leg, he's not here now, he said, Nick, why are you going to build a 3,000-square-feet restaurant on 23,000-square-feet land, and you can use it to build a mixed-use building? then at that time see the process start to develop in having a project based on uh what do you call it commercial and residential like use commercial it makes use property and he said acquire other properties so you can have more parking And we did work hard with Cannon and Mr. Glass. And since July 1st, 2023, when the governor, you know, on Florida, they said the Live Local Act, they give 90 units per acre. So we developed, I mean, a plan to build 48 units plus the restaurant. And April 10, the commissioners, they canceled 2024, they canceled, they make it 25 instead of 92. So our plan is finished. Then we start developing the new one, which is 40 units. And we represented the commissioners, we represented to Mr. Mike Bose and Mr. French. And at that time, they gave the okay, like the support, verbal support. And then we start the process. Then we went to the CRA and they said no. Then we went back to 30. Then they said, oh, you need more parking. We reduced the size of the restaurant, which is, I said, between 4,500 to 4,050 to accommodate the 30 units parking requirement. So that's where we are now.

Okay, a couple questions. When you bought this property, was there a functioning restaurant there at the time? No.

This property been... I've been here 15 years. I never see nothing there.

Well, that's my concern, that a restaurant has never really worked there. How do we know that this... I'm taking a chance.

That's the point. You have to understand one thing, that I am taking a chance. I'm really taking a chance. Maybe I'm not going to succeed. I'm not saying I'm going to succeed. So I'm making a chance that I'm trying to put a restaurant there. Maybe I'm going to succeed, or maybe I'm not going to succeed. So I'm taking a really big...

There's no question he's taking a risk, but look at the original. This is the original parcel. Look at the shape of that parcel. It doesn't function. Getting in and out of that restaurant, no wonder it failed. How did you get in and out? It just didn't work. Why it works now is because he acquired these additional parcels to have room. to circulate and get in and out of that property. If you go try to drive up to that piece of property now, just imagine trying to get in and out of that fast food restaurant the way it's currently configured. That's why it failed. Just like, remember the old Burger King that now is in the mini triangle? The mini triangle is where the Burger King used to be.

Davis and 41.

Davis and 41. That was a nightmare getting in and out. That's why the Burger King failed. And anything else that went in there failed.

Was it that garden restaurant?

No, no. No, there was a small, until it got assimilated into what is now the mini triangle catalyst project with, it wasn't until parcels were put together that that property could function. So it was that kind of, it was just awful access. You couldn't get into it and get out of it. And, you know, and maybe Long John Silver's day has passed as far as, you know, fast food. But this isn't going to be fast food. And, you know, people will come and the site functions with the additional parcels. so is there a risk of course there's a risk anybody that's a restaurant in collier county knows there's the risk hopefully he succeeds lamb kebabs is it you know uh we'll be there you'll be there at opening night hopefully commissioner shea

Rich, or even you, Joe, I just refreshed my memory who's on the CRA. And I'm not looking for names. For some reason, I thought some of the county commissioners were on the CRA.

They went to the CRA advisory board. Oh, OK. The advisory board. Well, a board of county commissioners, when they hear this petition, They are the CRA, but there's a CRA advisory board. We typically take our petitions to the advisory board.

That's important because if they voted against it, why are you spending your time with us?

I'm smart enough not to be at the podium if I've already lost at the board. I should have been clear.

It's the CRA advisory board.

But you're going to make us have to decide between our two favorite mics. Favorite mics on the parking and the transportation, you know, I our favorite mics.

Well, they're there are they your own?

Down here so Paul there's like three board members here in the audience on the CRA board Board or the advisory advisory

Thank you. With that, I don't see any other commissioners. Rich, do you have anything else before I open for public comment?

No, I don't think anything, and I'll just wait for a rebuttal at the end again to get on my soapbox.

and talk about this project I didn't see this all this material in the packet was it in the packet I didn't see the rendering we didn't have the renderings in the packet oh yeah artist rendition it's all in the not floor level just exterior oh you mean the floor plan the floor plans right oh no it's in there yeah page 23 something or other it's way down in the packet i just closed it you can't talk from there okay okay all right so anyway yeah i'm sorry i missed that and i would have liked to have seen that well i can go through them again so my question i want to get this understanding of the By right, you're saying you could put 25 units here?

What I'm saying is... And the second part of my question is, why 30? On the commercial portion of the property, we can get 25 units per acre under live local. Not 16. We can get 25. On the commercial portion of the property, not the entire acre.

And the commercial portion of the property would yield 13 because it's basically 0.54 acres. If he would use live local, he could have 13 units that would be available.

So how does he get then to 25?

Well, because I also have the two RMFs, six parcels, that would be allowed to be developed. I can't get to 30 without this process.

How do you even get to 25?

Don't because, trust me, Mike and I agree on the math. It's 25 units per acre on the commercial as far as the Live Local Act goes. i was i was just trying to point he said i we could only get 16 units per acre in the activity center and i'm saying we can get 25 units per acre not 16. that's all i'm saying it's a higher density yes we're asking for more units than we can get as a matter of right i'll say i wouldn't be here without the growth management plan amendment the 30 that we're asking for is is it based upon the floor plan and laying it out it gets to a number of units with the income restrictions that we have on it to make it an economically viable project so if you if you end up cutting down to what mike wants is the number of units you're not going to get a mixed-use project

So you get 25 units an acre, but because you're really not even an acre, not even a half an acre.

I'm over a half acre. Okay. The math doesn't get you where you want to get. What I'm suggesting is we're doing a sub-district like we've done before, and we're saying we have an acre. We're showing you how it all fits nicely on the acre. We're staying within the 56 feet of height I have. matter right today on the commercial property as a mixed-use project so they're not getting a bigger building than what from a height standpoint and from a dimension standpoint so if you can get to that dimension anyway on the property why not fill it up with workforce housing why not it's not a traffic issue on the roads It's in a perfect location for servicing businesses right there. It has easy access to transportation, to get to the hospital, to get to wherever else. It's an ideal location to provide workforce housing. You've approved other workforce housing projects at 30 units an acre. It's not the first one. And it's in a blighted area where you're looking to have more intense development. That's the whole point of the CRA. was to have more intense development on a major corridor on US 41. You'll see the buildings located on the commercial piece. This is the residential piece and this is the residential piece. So the building is on the commercial parcel, where commercial was gonna be. And the dimensions of the building yield 30 units. That makes economic sense.

Okay, with that, staff report please.

When I was reviewing just the overall staff report that our planner had written against the PUD there's a couple things that maybe that I wasn't aware of that have been stated that will need to be incorporated into the PUD one of the things that are not in the PUD or any specifics that the parking is for the residential units are going to be obligated to be on the off-street parking or the on-street parking or that the only the commercial parcel was or the the the main parcel was going to maintain the commercial parking what I saw is a competition between the commercial users and the residential users for the number of spots that were on the primary parcel and that inherent conflict was something I thought was from a design standpoint was something that was not the most favorable in terms of the interaction between those two individual uses. I will say Collier County doesn't have a long history of supporting true mixed-use integrated projects, let alone a mixed-use project with a restaurant with a pickup window, not a drive-thru, and I understand that. on the on the first floor because if you look at it i think it's been said you know you have to you have to interact you have to cross that drive that that pickup window or that pickup lane no matter where you park if you park if you're parking on the residential you've got to go across the the the residential street we were hoping for a mid block crossing just for improvement within safety understand it doesn't meet warrants and that's not their their fault and let me say the concept of affordable housing at at the percentage they're suggesting at this location staff is a hundred percent behind it we're we're concerned with with the intensity and the lack of the controls that have been incorporated with into the pud that's that's going to somehow better control that intensity as i mentioned Another thing, one of the things that was stated that there's no alcohol involved, they do have eating places. And eating places, as long as you maintain 51% of your sales as food, you're allowed to have alcohol. But that's not expressed in the PUD. That's not prohibited in the PUD. They spoke about a hookah lounge, potentially. They have a juice bar. They have an eating place and a juice bar. The juice bar is the fifth floor. it doesn't say hookah so you can't have a hookah you this isn't you're not going to be able to have options these are what you are they they have stated that they're looking for another thing the improvements related to andrew drive that's not in the pud that's not a commitment that's a commitment staff would is trying to suggest to the planning commission they should incorporate but they have not incorporated with into their pud so that's another issue that that we have somewhat of an issue with um and just overall we thought with in a way i looked at it was i just saw an inherent conflict between the two uses especially without knowing that the residential uses were going to be primarily designated and required to be on the off street and they were going to have a system towards where they were going to address that conflict that was not addressed in their pud So I'm left to, so if you're developing it, there's no obligation for them to do that. It's probably the best interest of how their business would function, but I didn't see that. So that's, it's one of the reasons why we said we were asking for a de-escalation of intensity because if there was less intensity, the intensity of the conflict between the two uses could be better controlled. Now that I've known that they have a system in place, or they're intending to have a system in place, I would ask that the Planning Commission, if you were going to recommend approval of this, to incorporate and mandate that that be placed into the PUD specifically, that the improvements on the road specifically be incorporated into the PUD specifically. to be able to provide for a little bit, to provide for better management of how the two uses can coexist within a better harmony, because we wouldn't want to promote a development that we know that has those inherent conflicts built in by its lack of design or lack of controls. um so those were some of the reasons why staff arrived upon the recommendation and it was a recommendation of denial but it was recognition denial at that intensity because of some of those re the reasons that i i am 100 support of affordable housing at this location just because of the number and I think rich had mentioned it the number of employment opportunities that are within a one mile a two mile a three mile radius are extreme or exorbitant there's a number of them so having 83% of your units dedicated to an income restricted with three for on-site employees I applaud that it's just the intensity that was associated with that with that so That is how we arrived upon our staff or recommendation of denial. But I would just put those aspects or those factors to consider while you're deliberating what's the appropriate level of intensity, what's the appropriate controls that should be incorporated with into the PUD. Any questions?

So if you have the right controls, will you be happy with the intensity?

If the right controls are in place, staff could sign off. Can you make him happy, Rich?

I was going to use my opportunity to cross-examine him in a positive way, and I was going to do leading questions if that's okay. Mike, all seriousness, if we drop the pickup window from this plan, if we add a condition that prohibits alcohol sales, If we include the staff condition about improving Andrews Road, and we add the parking condition that we must mark the parking spaces for the residential units, first of all, the 24 spaces will be identified and marked as residential only, and that the six other spaces will be marked on the, it's a requirement that we mark them on the site plan for residential uses.

we make those changes does that change the staff recommendation to a recommendation of approval I would agree there would and one of the other things that it not lost on me because I've been around here for more than 15 years I've been around here for close to 25 I don't think I've ever seen that that site functioning and putting a a non contributing eyesore only way to call it back into a useful land use contribution to the the county I think is something that everyone in this room is supportive of and staff is most certainly supportive of so yeah if those controls and if that those those commitments were were incorporated I think the design concerns are alleviated but based upon those controls and I I do think removing the pickup window, even though it's not a full drive-through, I think that takes away another real issue of concern. Because then you can really have a separate entrance for where your restaurants are, and maybe have it on a different side towards where the residential are. It gives you a little bit more flexibility in terms of what their ultimate architectural design, which we're not trying to improve.

Randy before you so let me clarify you remove the drive-through but from an operational standpoint and I'm looking probably at Nick because What you're running the restaurant? You don't have to answer this. I'm just need probably your attorney to acknowledge. I Mean we could designate a parking space for somebody would park and somebody from the restaurant would walk out and deliver because you're not there's no order in There's no order board or anything. It just was a convenience for pickup.

When we get to the site plan, now this is zoning. Yeah. It's not site plan yet. So I think we should leave that decision for site plan. If you want to have a designated parking space, which doesn't somehow hurt me from a parking calculation. No, it doesn't. It's part of the restaurant. You could just park and do your pickup. That's not an unusual circumstance. That's it. frankly probably a typical typical operation for but again we'll deal with that those are site plan level decisions we're eliminating the pickup window so if you want to prohibit drive-throughs maybe that's the right answer we're okay with that we'll prohibit drive-throughs so it can't be you all right

And I would add, I do think you're correct. Because most most established whether it be a fast food restaurant, one of those quick food restaurants, or even a traditional restaurants, every time that I'm ever picking up an order, there's a DoorDash or Uber Eats, or there's a delivery, that's how a good percentage of our food are delivered. So having a spot dedicated to that, I'm sure is going to be something they're in their best interest to do so.

And clearly, that spot is part of the restaurant calculation. That's not an added. I hope so.

Well, but that's a site plan issue. Site plan issue. And I'm not going to pretend I know all those.

Randy, if you had a question. Just a quick suggestion to put in front of you and the team. I anticipate that at some point, there could be parking problems or difficulties, even with the signage and all, for the ancillary parking for residents. something you might consider is a lift master gate system with a code on the car with a barcode on the car so that only residents can get in there and we'll talk to you during site planning and we'll address whether or not we can do that you know I don't want to play engineer I don't know that we can but if we can we probably would like to do that I'm just as a suggestion to think ahead I should minimize a commercial customer even thinking about working in there so just a thought well I assume you're pushing for the crosswalk goes away you're succumbing to the other mic

Once again, the crosswalk is not justified. I would say if it ever became justified, the staff would hope that the transportation department would explore the implementation. Another issue that staff had was the where the the off-street parking lot was going to replace an existing residence there was one residence left in a in a hotel there was concern about leaving that single family or that single residence but that is owned by the hotel and if you remember in the fairways in if you they have they could rent that house out on a day on a daily basis i've i see that that that is going to be incorporated either through through the short term rental opportunities that the state says that they're allowed to have or incorporating that into a future redevelopment of that parcel. So I don't see this interrupting the continuity. I see it abbreviating, it's removing three existing residents, but It's adding 30 additional with the majority of them workforce housing, which we know the number of restaurants within the Bayshore area and the popularity of the Bayshore area. We know that there's going to be a stress and a need for those type of workers to find close proximity in lodging to locations where they're going to be working.

And one more cross-examination question I assume also your opposition to our two deviations related to the landscape islands go away They do because I we understand that the the unless you reduce your square footage it would it wouldn't allow the the site to function Okay I see Mr. Shea has already got his done

with that staff report and so we'll open open for public comment do we have any public speakers yes uh first speaker ally mick good afternoon i'm ally mick i am a property owner just to the north um which I did not sign the paperwork saying I was supporting of that. So I'd be directly adjacent to it. I just want to just make it clear that I'm not against redevelopment. I'm not against workforce housing, but I am also not against the owner developing his blighted commercial property and making a good business out of it. My only objection is that the rezoning of the two residential properties I just think it just depletes the character of the neighborhood it does contribute to commercial creep because these properties were hand-picked just to assemble a larger landmass just so that this commercial project could happen they're not vacant land there are residential homes that have been there people are living there and Personally, I don't want to be next to a parking lot and risk the flood factor from that. When you tear down a house, pave the whole property over, all that surface area that was absorbing floodwaters is gone. So it's all going to flood down the street and right onto me. The CRA was actually... never really intended to sacrifice neighborhoods the bayshore the bayshore cra they promote redevelopment mixed use investment walkability and economic vitality all worthwhile goals however revitalization shouldn't strengthen it should strengthen neighborhoods not consume them so successful redevelopment would happen when the investment complements the existing homes in the neighborhood and rather than expanding its interest down residential streets i know he mentioned that it's happened before in other places in town i don't know which came first i don't know if the commercial already owned it and then houses followed or if actual houses were torn down to make a parking lot so I'm all for the blighted commercial property being redeveloped. That can be turned into something economically profitable without touching the neighboring residential houses. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Next speaker please.

Next speaker, Steve Rigsby.

For the record, I am Steve Rigsby. I am a CRA board member and also a resident of Andrew Drive. What I've heard here is absolute nonsense. This gentleman, the lawyer, was saying he talked to whoever. I was with Dan Colwell yesterday in his office, and we were talking about this particular project, and he said it was a mess. And it wasn't viable. Wasn't gonna work. I don't know if any of you have ever driven down that street, but 25 miles an hour isn't the norm. Try 50, 60 miles an hour. I had a son that was almost killed on that road. I've seen people and trash tanks go flying on that road. As far as, you know, I mean, I was going to have this, I had something written up here, but there's just too much. We have two new houses that have been rebuilt in the Wilmer, actually four new houses that have been rebuilt since Ian on the Wilmer Heights area, which incorporates this area that we're talking about. Plus the hotel has completely rebuilt the house that they own. So to start saying that this is a blighted area, it's turning itself around without the help of this project. Putting five parking lots on residential on the Andrew Drive is suicide. You're just asking for somebody to get killed because of the speed that is never enforced there. We've tried to get speed bumps there. We can't even get speed bumps on that street through the CRA. Some of the other issues that I have are basically taking rezoning for what developer wants to do. is taking commercial property or taking residential property and turning it into a parking lot. Well, he's gonna be awful busy towing cars because nobody's gonna pay attention to that at all. I've lived there since 1991. I just built a new house on that street, brand new. but putting all that aside i'm going to continue with what i want for the record my name is steve rigsby i've served as a gateway triangle representative on the car a board i'm also a property owner of the resident of andrew drive i do not consider this responsibility a burden i consider responsibility to ensure the integrity safety and quality of life of our community that our neighbors have and it should be protected. And that I'm saying, listen, you put this thing up here, there's going to be nothing but problems. I'm here today because many of the residents who will be directly affected by this proposal may not have the ability to take time away from work, arrange transportation, or otherwise attend a daytime public hearing to make their concerns known. because we didn't know when this was going to happen. I lost five speakers that were going to speak up because we weren't sure when this was going to happen. So five people that I know for a fact were against this project. My opposition to this proposal is not based simply on the type of business being proposed. My concerns are centered on the intensity and the compatibility to the overall development of the surrounding residential neighborhood. The existing two-lane roadway, the adjacent elementary school and the impacts of this project would have on the residents who already live here. Please note, the workforce housing proposed will be to benefit the hookah, or whatever this restaurant is, bar and employees only. Please also consider the following, traffic and intensity of the two-lane road, partially with the elementary school at the end of Andrew Drive. You want a little kid to get hit? That's what's gonna happen. Hasn't happened yet, but you put people half asleep trying to get in and out of work, going to and from work, they're not awake. They're not gonna see what's going on. The impact of existing residents, noise. He's talking about putting some kind of juice bar on the top. Okay, that alone, is a nuisance and won't be monitored by, you know, noise ordinances. Or if it is done by noise ordinance, I don't know how that's going to work out.

Okay, sir, can I ask you to wrap up, please? No.

One more time, please. Noise, late-night activity, the parking is not going to work. It's just not going to work. and the dumpster placement next to a residential bedroom, I don't care what you do. I know the person that owns that property. I don't think they want to hear a dumpster at any time, nine feet from their house. The rezoning of the two residential lots, including the lot across the street and on the lot being used for the dumpster parking area, and why those changes extend the project's impact beyond the primary development site is not compatible to the neighborhood at all. I respectfully ask the CCPC to carefully consider whether the proposal as presented is appropriate for this location and whether the requested rezoning and increased intensity are truly compatible with the surrounding community. I just don't see it happening. I've lived there since 1991. I know what goes on on that street. I'm the guy that they come to and they complain to. with the CRA, and I'm the one that has to smooth out the ruffled feathers. I've seen the developer, Nick, almost get hit by a car and he didn't even know it. We had dumpsters.

Sir, can you wrap up, please? Well over five minutes.

All right.

Thank you.

My wrap-up is I'm totally against this. 500 square feet is a ridiculous amount to try to put that parking in there.

Next speaker, please.

Next speaker, Tom Kinney.

Hi, I'm Tom Kenny. I live on Andrew Drive. I think some of the past comments made by people who live in the neighborhood are very valid and appropriate, as well as I agree with, you know, the comments that have been made. I don't feel I'm not against know development i'm not against working within the rules and guidelines the codes and the zoning that is in place i'd like to see that it held to that standard any kind of development regardless of your decision i'd like to see that thank you thank you next speaker please al shanson is the next speaker

Thank you for the opportunity. Al Shanson, for the record, CRA member, and been a part of the color of Collier County since 75. I'd like to indicate what you're asking us about the CRA and why they decided when it was presented to us at 40 units, even palatable at 30, was didn't really feel like we wanted to trade trade the blight that we have for oblivion the density is was far exceeds what fits on that postage stamp that they were working with there's other businesses that fit on smaller places that are successful to to the north to the wet to the west of it and there's um the business model and stuff that he uses to get to that is within his realm of control. So to put that much density into it is where we were coming and not really agreeing to it. For instance, we're taking on-street, we're gonna be doing on-street parking, and I suspect that's going to be on county right-of-way property, and to restrict that to his use only and not the public use becomes questionable also, and it just adds to the increased density. I thought it was a wise decision on staff remarks of denying the proposal as it was presented and I would ask that the board take the recommendation of the senior staff and what they do recommend to you and if they come back and they rework the situation to make it less dense to control the parking because parking is going to be a big issue because you're already going up and down the street to get to parking and taking two residential lots which is One of the things we also try to keep from having the residential and commercial creep where we start losing the single-family, multi-family lots on the backside of all the commercial that is on Bayshore and in the CRA, we're concerned about the residents and being able to live out their area without commercial coming in and disrupting their whole private life and things that go with that. I thank you for the opportunity. Just be sensitive to the parking because you ain't got enough, and the business plan that he's got exceeds the parking requirements that you have available.

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Chairman, the final speaker, Maurice Gutierrez.

Board members for the record Maurice Gutierrez I am currently chair of the CRA Advisory Board we are the eyes and ears of the commissioners as they say before my time starts can I take a second and correct some information that was offered here the property that was long john silvers was redeveloped it is currently today a woman's clinic it's invisible causes no traffic and there has been successful redevelopment the current property last time it was operational i think was called fryer tux and it was a drive-through cheese steak place That is a little history associated with that property. The CRA, I don't believe has ever turned but one project down. and it was a density issue and long gone and also redeveloped our concerns here is the CRA wants to make sure that we don't repeat our sins of the past which is why we're a CRA now because we had problems from projects that didn't realize the impact was going to have the community and for the last twenty some years it's done a pretty good job eliminating those issues and redeveloping without having negative impact But the one correlation that wasn't brought here is really important, is the food truck park. Because when the county approved it, the traffic engineers said, hey, you know, 14 spaces is just fine. And lo and behold, they had to go across the street, pave it for parking, and to this day, Becca Avenue has 16 parking no parking or you will be fined signs in front of every residential property on becca traffic has been a nightmare and the success of the business qualifies as a good investment but at what cost the community has been impacted unforeseen forever with people parking on the sidewalks parking in front of people's yards because it's street side parking that's in the overlay so that impact really is one of the reasons we share as a CRA voted not the advisory board not to allow this project to go forward And the similarities are there. If your residential parking is full and doesn't have gates, and it's a very successful business, where are they going to park? In front of everybody's house down Andrews Drive. Ask code enforcement, ask the sheriff's office how many calls they've had on Becca over this exact scenario. We learn from our mistakes. And our mistake was not to question the food truck park process. This appears as going in the same heading. I hope it's successful. And if it's successful, how is it going to handle the parking if the neighborhood isn't impacted? So when they came before us, I looked at the fact that to make this project viable, I mean, we're not in the land buying business, not in business. do your due diligence you know the size of the property you know the project you want to do if it doesn't fit and you have to purchase three affordable residential existing lots in order for your commercial project to work and ask for a zoning change that's a non-starter because that's not redevelopment that's over development need to allow what's happening within the confines of the community not force the community to accept what somebody feels is a viable economic money-making business and for those reasons i think it's important that we denied that project for a second look because it's just Well, engineers have an ability to really use a very colorful shoehorn. And in this situation, I have a feeling it's impacting more than just the actual perimeter and the potential of it to happen. And just look at the parking lot across from the food truck park. Look at the success of Rebecca's and the wine venue and the fact she asked for a reduction of parking. and now she's had to come to us and ask us permission to park on a grass field for her venue those are things the county does not like to do and generally doesn't allow to do but here's is where we are today in our growth and our redevelopment and the emphasis is don't over develop be smart about development because we've dealt forever when it was kelly road and i moved here in the mid 70s

today it's Bayshore and it's no longer blighted if we would not have had a CRA established where would we be today as a community thank you very much chair I have some questions Maurice couple questions so the advisory board had denied it when it was 40 units and based on that the petitioner from what I understand reduced it to 30 them buying up these additional properties to satisfy the parking requirement isn't that a little different than rebecca's like rebecca didn't buy enough well i mean 365 well the the food truck they didn't buy enough land to to meet the needs of the parking this petition is trying to do that

well but the difference between the two the property that was purchased to become the parking lot for the food truck park has existing commercial frontage the lots that are being purchased or are purchased are existing residential and i always felt that the gold standard in home ownership is single-family residential zoning so if i buy a home and two lots over are rezoned into commercial that doesn't protect my property so the issue of being able to impact the neighborhood by removing existing residential in a neighborhood that's a stressed be under redevelopment Negative because now you're eliminating homeownership and putting in transients ownership because these aren't going to be sold These are gonna be rental properties So there's no and we always call it necessary stake in the neighborhood a rental community doesn't have the same Feel as a ownership community because the owners don't have a stake in the property so they are temporary and people who are homeowners like those in the triangle have lived through the blight and have lived through the negativity of oh everything from the crime that used to occur as the sheriff's department it's dropped 400 percent from the old days to creating more of a less permanent basis and you throw in the unknown of restaurateurship and if it is successful, power to you, but then where do you park all those people? and when we look at redevelopment we look at a balance so that we improve what we have without making the same mistakes our forefathers made on bayshore on kelly road where it created the scenario of all the problems that we've been trying to solve the last 20 some years okay thank you all right thank you thank you any other speakers please no further speakers all right with that i close the

at least from the standpoint of public speakers. And Mr. Yovanovitch, do you have any rebuttal, please, before I close the public hearing?

Yeah, just a little bit. I'm going to work backwards from the last speaker and then to the first speaker. First of all, There is no comparison to a restaurant that doesn't serve alcohol and to a tiki bar, juice bar that doesn't serve alcohol to a food truck park that has a bar. that has live entertainment that no question has had a parking issue to try to say that we're going to a successful restaurant is the equivalent of the food truck bar is not a fair and even close to an accurate analogy we are meeting the parking requirements for the restaurant we are meeting the code To then say if this guy is successful and he still meets the code, you shouldn't approve him anyway because you may be too successful and people are going to park where they're not supposed to park. Well, you should not approve any business in Collier County because if it's too successful, it doesn't have adequate parking. That's what he just said. That is just what he just said. The next thing about rentals. I'm trying not to get too much on the soapbox, but I was a 60-year-old renter. I rented a house. Don't tell me I didn't have a stake in that community. I took care of that house. I took care of that house as if I owned it. To sit there and say renters do not take care of property is also false. Look at the rentals that are in the mini-triangle. Are you telling me they don't have a stake in the community? You're almost saying that bad people are runners. They're transients. They don't believe in the community. They don't care. That's what I just heard. Maybe I misheard it. That that's that's that's just not accurate. These are going to be hard working people that live in this community and they're going to be in safeties and housing. That's what we should be doing. And we should be giving employees an opportunity to work close to where I mean live close to where they work. we should be encouraging this type of housing not saying they don't have a stake in the community because it's a rental now the gold standard is a single family home single family residential neighborhood guess what these lots are zoned residential multi-family multi-family so they could be developed right now with multi-family that could be rentals that's the existing zoning So those last comments, you can tell I'm a little bothered by them. And I'm bothered by them because I've heard that my entire career. Whenever I bring an affordable housing project forward, rentals, they don't care about the community, and I'm tired of it. It's not right. Next, I heard we already have bad drivers in the neighborhood. I'm sorry that your people who live in your community speed. Talk to your neighbors. That's not our fault. Where are people going to go? They're going to come to a business. They're going to go to dinner and they're going to go home. They're going to go get a juice. They're going to go home. We'll make sure there's a sign that says not a through street. So why would they even ever go down that way? It's not our bad drivers that he's worried about. He's got his own bad drivers that exist in that neighborhood. The first speaker, I understood everything she said, and I get it, and she asked a very good question about which came first on those scenarios. Were residential homes torn down to provide those parking facilities? And the answer is yes. Homes were torn down to provide that parking for those commercial establishments. It is not unusual, and every one of them that we put up there was RMF 6. We're RMF 6. There have been many instances where homes have been turned down to provide parking for commercial businesses. You know what? They didn't even have to rezone them because you can do it under the code and keep the zoning in place and get off-street parking for those. So when you go look at the zoning map for each of those parking, you click on it, and guess what the underlying zoning is? Farm Districts, as we see here today. Not commercial. All we're doing is we're just being honest. We're incorporating into the PUD to provide appropriate care and appropriate buffers we can look at the dumpster i mean the woman next door didn't make anything she didn't make a comment about the dumpster she was concerned about the parking uh but we can you know we that's a site plan issue that moves to a different couple parking spaces we can talk about that but we'll look at that but but We, and there's already a wall there, so she's going to have protection. We took good care in laying out this site plan and tried to be responsive and responsible to our neighbors. The intention of the CRA was to encourage redevelopment. The CRA already provides additional incentives and additional intensity, and it's working. It's now going to start working on 41, which it really hasn't worked on 41 yet. It's working on Davis. It's working on Bayshore. um the shopping center kind of diagonally across is going to come in for some redevelopment it's going to include rental i hope we'll be able to get through the cra advisory board even though we're going to include some rental product in that redevelopment and i think we've had our pre-app on that piece already and guess what and ask for 30 units an acre not parcel as well. And it's gonna be a really beautiful redevelopment. It's gonna be like mini triangle number two. It's gonna hopefully also spur redevelopment along 41, which is the goal. This is a small parcel. You have a small business owner wants to come in and do a redevelopment that if you looked at the conceptual architecture is a very nice looking building. It's not going to negatively impact the neighborhood. With the accommodations and the modifications we've made, we're never going to be the food truck park. So I don't think you have to worry about or even the wine bar or any of those things that are generating more traffic than was anticipated. we all hope nick is successful and i apologize to you that was long john silvers it was some other defunct fast food establishment on this piece of property and that's a blighted piece of property and because of the configuration of that property that's the way it's going to be and even if you develop it just as a as a a commercial establishment on that property under the last speaker's thought process if it's too successful even though it meets the parking requirements of the code are you gonna we shouldn't do that we should just turn it down because it might be too successful That's not the criteria for reviewing this. This is a good project. Staff now supports it based upon changes we've made, and we request that the Planning Commission recommend approval.

Thank you. Any questions? Michelle?

rich can you address the concern that the one gentleman had i think it was al about the public parking the the off-site or the on-street parking and it it's a perm it's permitted to count those parking spaces as part of the cra right but is that public parking i i don't think i could stop somebody from parking there it's it's available to us it counts but if you park there i don't think i can tell you because that's a county easement because right away because it's the county right away it's parking for whoever wants to park there okay but it counts for their project okay kind of like the d downtown and yeah it's to encourage it's encouraged redevelopment okay

Any other questions with me or anybody else on our team?

I've seen, oh Randy, go ahead. Actually a question for Professor Mike Sawyer in the back. Could you give me just a 30 second review on what is either the requirements or the conditions for either the county or FDOT for speed bumps? My thought suggestion, obviously I'm not an engineer, But if we are concerned about safety and people crossing the street and or speeders, even though it's a couple hundred feet coming off of Tamiami, what would happen if there was a speed bump on each side of that crosswalk area?

Absolutely. For the record, Mike Sawyer, Transportation Planning. As far as mid-block crossings like this, principally there's three main issues or criteria that you look at. It is the number of people that make that crossing, the amount of traffic on the roadway, And also in this case, how close it is to the next adjacent crosswalk, which is just to the north on 41. So in this particular case, it's too close. It doesn't meet the number of people that are going to be crossing there. And it is a low speed, low volume local street. It is a, the criteria are recognized nationally, locally, and statewide. And in order for us to make exceptions to that, we wind up not following what the rules are.

And that's why I called you Professor Mike.

Thanks very much. That's overstating it, but I appreciate the intent.

Thank you.

Okay with that I close the public hearing open it for deliberation Do I have any commissioners who would like to make any comments or statements?

Or anybody wishing to make a recommendation I'm not in favor of converting residential lots think it helps that the petitioner comes with letters and approval from the neighbors which i think helps they seem to have satisfied the staff's concerns might be a little too much on that size of a lot but again that's not it's not my business to decide the workforce housing is good you got shuttle on elementary right down the street teacher housing is an issue even given a couple meetings ago somebody was here saying it was not I think that's an important thing to matter plus the shortage of the affordable housing and workforce housing that's needed that's kind of where I'm kind of sitting on it trying to balance the two I understand the residents concerns you get the two neighboring lots already giving letters of support it's just it's a tough spot to be i think the dumpster can be moved if that's a one concern um petitioner said they put in a wall to for the for the neighboring properties concerned so it's a tough one yeah anybody else comments

I'll follow up with Chuck I thought initially and I said this to Mr. Yovanovitch when we first spoke I thought it was far too intense for a lot of but not the density for affordable housing. And that's why I asked a lot of questions about the commercial. But that's the risk that Nick's going to take, and it's his business, and it's a risk he takes whether it's going to be a viable business for both the commercial upstairs and downstairs. But from what I heard, if there is a recommendation to go forward, The improvements to Andrew Drive would be included in the PUD. That includes the improvements to the Andrew Drive to include the Construction of the parking space is that correct?

Yes, that's a requirement.

Yeah Off-site parking would be restricted to residents only and I clearly understand that's nothing more than signs and to enforce and towing but Unless there's some kind of a restrictive bar or some other barcode or some other type of way they get in and out And you would remove the drive-through. That's what I heard. I

So those three items and we also eliminated alcohol and no alcohol alcohol and no alcohol in sight I'm looking at my checklist.

I think with did you mention improve Andrew Drive? Yes Pick up no pickup window. No alcohol must mark parking spots.

Yeah With that, is there anything else, Mike?

Go ahead, Mike. The applicant may want to clarify. They have a juice within their allowed uses. I believe they call it a... A juice bar cafe. I'm not sure if a cafe fits a hookah lounge.

We are comfortable the way we're describing it.

Okay.

I mean, if it's upstairs and it's restricted to a hookah lounge, I mean, it's not part of the restaurant. It's not part of the food. I can't prohibit a hookah lounge upstairs.

I'm just saying, a site plan reviewer, if they show a hookah lounge on top in the... Let's play safe and add the ability to have the hookah upstairs without alcohol.

It's a lounge.

It's hookah.

Have you spent a lot of time in the Middle East? I've never experienced hookah. In fact, I spent too much time in the Middle East.

All I'm saying is the use that's designated for the fifth floor right now is Juice Bar Cafe.

not sure if hookah lounge fits that category i don't know why i wouldn't if it's let's play let's please say all right put it in there hookah would be allowed okay just in case i i don't want it i i'll take that back i like the middle east they spent a lot of time there

All right, with that, any commissioners wishing to make a motion?

Can I get an understanding? Yes. I've never heard of a hookah lounge. But I'm reading about it. Yes, smoked-flavored tobacco.

Yeah, sure.

Is that what we want?

How about a bubble pipe? I mean, a water pipe. They smoke it through a bong.

No, it's not a bong.

It's very expensive tobacco.

Yeah.

Does it have smells?

It's all indoors. It's all indoors.

It's on a roof though, right?

It's indoors. It's not like a loud music kind of... It's all indoors.

Is there seating outside of this yellow area on page 2308?

Upstead? Yes.

Oh, it's just 1,000 square feet.

Yes.

i'm sorry i thought originally it was that's the cafe but there's chairs and lounging area outside it's just within the 1000 square feet all right thank you and i don't know what a hookah lounge is either and that's bad

Do we have any in Collier County? Yes, we do.

Virginia on 5th Avenue, 710 or 700. Yeah, Virginia.

I've seen it in there, I've just never done it.

But they have it before, so they have the bar, the food, everything there.

Do we have to require that it's indoors?

If you want to prohibit outdoor seating on the rooftop, that's fine with us.

Yeah, I say put it in, yeah.

I'm waiting. Anybody want to? I'm leaving it up to you all.

You want to make a motion? I make a motion that we accept the petition with the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 caveats that Rich just stated and Michelle added.

And all of those conditions go in the PUD, correct? Yes. Not in the comp plan. Not in the comp plan.

Got it. okay with that we have a motion I second it we have a second with that I see some favorable heads so I call to question all in favor say aye aye any opposed like sign passes unanimously thank you thank you and with that I don't think we have any closing comments Mike you want to make a question on the upcoming meetings

No, I wanted to, on your agenda, we have an item under new business. Discussion about official interpretation. Oh, I missed that.

11A.

Before Nick goes, I have to ask him, what kind of restaurant is it going to be?

Mediterranean restaurant. Okay. It's going to be kebab, falafel, hummus, tabbouleh.

Good physique?

Well, Mr. William Glass is not here. I will tell you how he's still tasting five months ago the same. There you go.

Thank you.

You got all that, right?

That was off the record.

Do you want to know the prices? Believe me, this is the thing. Oh, no. I went to a restaurant. My price is going to be minimum 30% down. God bless him.

As I put on the visualizer, staff has been in conversation. I think he said Iran.

I think he said Persia.

Persia, yeah.

All right, go ahead. I'm sorry.

Oh, I was saying, as I've put on the visualizer, staff has been in conversation with the county attorney's office. And we'd make a clarification to the land development code. We'd like to amend it when we have a request for an official interpretation. We want to put a caveat that if there is a request for official interpretation for a site-specific location, the consent of the owner on the land is required. We've had times in the past where people have requested official interpretations property they do not own without the consent of the owner and the county attorney has suggested that we tighten that down to require at least a consent of the owner to authorize an official interpretation on their land And staff would ask the Planning Commission to direct staff to make that modification and bring it back.

Well, I'd strongly recommend that make that modification. Anybody that wants an OI official interpretation, that if either they're the property owner or they have an affidavit that states that they could do it on behalf of the property owner. Because an OI impacts the property owner.

correct correct and so yes and that's what we wanted we wanted that that clarification um and one last thing i believe uh mr shea's uh uh appointment to the ahac is expiring can we have a new candidate or a re-elect or reappoint mr shea if he would agree to it

I heard a motion on the floor to recommend Mr. Shea do I hear a second yes I second all in favor say aye any opposed pass unanimously congratulations Paul that's all from staff thank you all right do we have a note here on availability it looks like we may have a quorum for the meeting

9-3 is canceled. 9-17, it looks like Mr. Luccarelli will not be able to attend. So we're going to have to cancel that.

Okay. Cancel that meeting. All right. So the next meeting will be October 1st. Yes.

So nothing in September. The 3rd and the 17th are canceled.

Correct. That's official. Correct. Great. Thank you.

And then as far as Okay, but so I'm just thinking you're not even anywhere near for the data centers, any type of LDC amendment.

No, we're probably six months away from that coming to you guys.

But we've not had any, have we had anybody even approach us?

No, and if they did, we have a zoning in progress that we would have to table that application until the regulations work.

All right, because we've not implemented a moratorium.

We haven't implemented a moratorium but a zoning in progress is in the same manner the state does authorize us to allow for a moratorium it's the Board of County Commissioners just does they preferred to go with the zoning in progress approach Okay and with that I make a motion to be adjourned all in favor say aye and we are adjourned